Latest / Simply Bitcoin / CK Snarks | You Ain't Bullish Enough | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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CK Snarks | You Ain't Bullish Enough | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:07
Yo, welcome to another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL.
0:12
Today we have a very special guest.
0:14
We have CK Snarks. He was the general manager of
0:18
Bitcoin Magazine and he left to join the Human Rights Human
0:22
Rights Foundation. So we're going to talk to him
0:24
about that. Really excited for the show.
0:26
Haven't talked to CK in a minute.
0:28
I think the last time I saw him in person was in Nashville.
0:31
But before we jump into it, I want to give a shout out to the
0:34
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0:53
All right everybody, no more delay.
0:54
Spring up the man, the myth, the legend himself.
0:57
Thank you for the introduction bro.
0:59
How you doing bro? Life is great.
1:02
Is it great? Is it great?
1:04
Lots of lots of change UPS, bro. Lots of change UPS for you,
1:08
dude. So.
1:09
Yeah man, how many years were you at Bitcoin Mag?
1:14
Was that Bitcoin mag since February 2018?
1:17
Wow. OK.
1:18
And then what was it like when you joined?
1:22
Really different company man. Multi coin company, small well
1:27
so The funny thing is that like. BTC Inc has definitely ridden
1:33
the the the bull bear market wave.
1:38
So when I got brought on, the company was like 80 people and
1:43
then I I kind of like ground down with the company down to
1:47
like 12 people and then we brought it all the way up to
1:52
like 120 people and and then I think now it's like 60 people.
1:58
So, So it's a Bitcoin company is what you're saying?
2:01
Yeah. Definitely.
2:02
But yeah, no, it was like for me, you know the Bitcoin only
2:06
industry, like a big part of its development was Bitcoin Magazine
2:11
going Bitcoin only because that was the first because Bitcoin
2:15
only like was there. I would say like it was a
2:18
community thing, there's a grassroots thing, but from like
2:22
a business perspective there was only multi coin so.
2:27
Bitcoin, you know there's it wasn't like the Bitcoin magazine
2:31
was the only player here. Block stream was like a very
2:34
early Bitcoin only company. But Bitcoin Magazine going from
2:37
like explicitly multi coin to hey we're going to only focus on
2:42
Bitcoin, we're going to drop our multi coin block chain
2:45
conferences, we're going to do, we're going to you know
2:48
effectively popularize the Bitcoin only conference which
2:51
now is a complete phenomenon. It was pretty cool.
2:57
And let's talk about that, right, 'cause the, the.
2:59
And I remember that explicitly. I do remember that that was
3:02
like, it was like 2020, The rise of Bitcoin only companies before
3:08
it was crypto, right? And then the rise of Bitcoin
3:12
only media, right, Which like you said, Bitcoin Magazine was
3:15
an integral part of that. But also, you know, a lot of the
3:18
podcasters that we know of today, right?
3:20
Like Odell, TFTC, the Breedlove's, The Natalie's, the
3:25
Mccormack's, etcetera, etcetera. And they all really rode that
3:29
wave like before that wave, you know, like they had big
3:33
followings, but not Stratosphere followings, right.
3:37
It was really that like 2020-2021 that really gave the
3:43
Bitcoin only media a a shot. It was.
3:46
It was cryptic, it was commingled before, like you
3:49
said. So how was that like did did you
3:52
that that those early days, that pioneering, did you even think
3:55
that it was a it was a viable business model going Bitcoin
3:59
only? Yeah, no, I definitely thought
4:03
that. So Aaron Van Werdom and I were
4:06
kind of like the two really big proponents for for it.
4:09
You know, Bitcoin Magazine now is like almost 100% Bitcoin
4:13
maximalist on staff, but back then it was like 20% Bitcoin
4:18
maximalist on staff. And then like 40% crypto people
4:23
and then like 40% like just people working at job at a start
4:27
up company you know people working at start up media
4:30
companies and so working at an event company you know like a
4:34
bunch of that like to a bunch of people that's how they saw beats
4:37
the ink so but Van Werdam and I we really were pitching this to
4:45
leadership saying like. Unless we go Bitcoin only, like
4:51
what differentiator do we have, right?
4:54
We're just like this but worse or we're just like this but
4:57
smaller or just like this but slower.
5:00
You know what we really had was the history and Bitcoin and like
5:05
at our heart like we had leadership that were Bitcoin
5:09
maximalists. And to be honest, you got to
5:12
give credit where credit is due. David Bailey is just the ballsy
5:15
mofo so. Like he had the balls to you
5:19
know pretty much just like experiment with a brand new
5:24
business model that had never been proven out before.
5:27
Yeah and no and I I dude, it was it was it was it was really
5:33
interesting days dude. The the infancy like I call it
5:37
of of the of Bitcoin only companies.
5:39
Bitcoin only media is very, very young this phenomenon.
5:43
Right. And yeah, we're.
5:45
Early. We're so early.
5:48
We are so early. I completely agree with that.
5:51
OK, So Fast forward, right. You pitched it, obviously it was
5:54
a massive success. Congratulations, CK But what,
6:01
what was that like? What was like, you know, because
6:03
of course, you know, you come up with an idea, but it's very
6:07
different when that idea comes to fruition, right.
6:10
So what was that like? You know you joined 2018, things
6:14
accelerated very quick. I feel like you joined at the
6:17
right at the perfect time, right.
6:19
That's like the the year after the peak of the peak of the 2017
6:24
bull market, right you joined. No, I I I joined as it was
6:28
sliding off the peak. OK I I joined at the worst time.
6:32
I mean, maybe, maybe a good time to be influential of the
6:35
company, but in terms of like, you know, heads were rolling,
6:39
yeah, I think I I saw. Like I I was like so low level
6:44
during that bear market. Like the all I knew is that I
6:48
made the cuts. I didn't know anything about
6:50
like the layoffs, you know whereas like on this most recent
6:54
bear market, you know I was in charge.
6:58
So like, it was like that was like on my on my back, you know,
7:01
And that was, it was brutal. Yeah.
7:03
No, I I can only imagine, you know, having all those people
7:07
kind of, you know, looking up and and all that.
7:09
So, OK, so you're a Bitcoin mag, you know, that's that's how you
7:14
started your career and all that stuff.
7:16
And then you recently announced, that's really what I want to
7:19
talk about you joining Alex and the Human Rights Foundation.
7:25
So congratulations, CK, that's incredibly.
7:28
Awesome. Thank you.
7:28
Yeah. And I'm I'm honored and really
7:31
excited and I've been there for going on six weeks now and
7:36
bullish, so bullish Gladstein has.
7:40
You know, he's the visionary here and he's built something
7:44
really remarkable and I'm really hoping we could just make it,
7:49
you know, that much better and that much more efficient and
7:53
that more much more productive. I think that that would be
7:57
really good for Bitcoin if we got the Bitcoin Development Fund
8:00
and the financial freedom apparatus at at HRF to to just
8:05
be better and then let me and then so OK and then for anyone
8:10
who doesn't know like what is the purpose of the Human Rights
8:14
Foundation? Like what is the mission?
8:16
How does it differentiate from like Bitcoin Magazine for
8:21
example? Oh wow.
8:23
Yeah, I know HRF and Bitcoin Magazine are very different.
8:26
Other No, I think like, they're different and similar.
8:29
Like both are very interested in human sovereignty, prosperity,
8:35
dignity. Freedom, I think both
8:38
organizations are unified there. Both organizations are unified
8:41
by Bitcoin. So like there's a lot of
8:44
similarities, but obviously like the organizations are very
8:49
different. Like, you know, David Bailey
8:52
will be the first person to tell you that like Bitcoin Magazine
8:55
is a Bitcoin propaganda. You know, organization.
9:00
I I really don't think that HRF is that HRF is.
9:04
So I want to like. I I I want to make it like very
9:09
clear HRF has like a a guiding principle and mission as a human
9:13
rights organization and then the financial freedom team in the
9:17
Bitcoin Development Fund you know as a subset of that have
9:21
our own exclusive. Goals within our work inside of
9:26
Bitcoin. So I'll hit on what HRF does,
9:29
like on a macro level, on an org level and I can hit on like what
9:33
the Bitcoin team works on, which is what I'm leading, you know,
9:36
And you know I'm going to like I I need to stay in my lane and I
9:40
need to focus on Bitcoin because I'm not qualified to do and
9:43
handle the other stuff that HRF is, is operating in.
9:48
But yeah, so HRF. We advocate for democracy and we
9:55
stand against authoritarians and dictators.
9:59
That is, that is our high level mission.
10:04
So there's a lot of things that are wrong with the world.
10:09
There's a lot of things that are wrong with democracies.
10:11
You know, you know that I prescribed to the sovereign
10:14
individual thesis And like you know, democracies aren't perfect
10:18
by any means. But in many cases, the freedoms
10:24
and the the, the sovereignty and the dignity of people within
10:30
democracies is considerably, much higher across the board.
10:34
And like that's what the Human Rights Foundation is concerned
10:36
about. So the HRF does not focus on
10:40
like Europe or the US, we focus on authoritarian states.
10:46
And their focus is really wide reaching it, but ultimately it
10:51
is to help people in those areas become more sovereign so and
10:57
become more free and to hopefully access better
11:01
governance in the future. So we do that super practically.
11:05
So we have tons of lawyers and researchers and academics who
11:09
are getting people out of prison.
11:12
And lobbying like to get people free.
11:14
Like we're not talking about like playing the long political
11:17
game, like we're trying to get people.
11:19
Like we're trying to free people that have been detained for a
11:23
number of reasons. But we would consider those to
11:26
be unjust reasons or unlawful reasons.
11:29
And those are the type of people that we're trying to get out.
11:31
We're doing programs. HR has always been
11:33
technologically forward. So you know, doing programs like
11:37
flash drives for freedom in places where the Internet is not
11:40
available. So North Korea, Cuba, things
11:43
like that, places like that, you know, sending in information
11:46
packages to try to like you know, awaken their, their people
11:53
of like what the world is like outside of of their, their
11:56
dictatorship. One of my favorite programs that
12:00
HRF is doing right now is they have a Uyghur slave labour
12:04
tracker. So you could you know, I know
12:06
bitcoiners don't like installing extensions, but not everyone HRF
12:10
interacts with is a bitcoiner, so we have an extension that
12:15
pretty much in you go when you're online shopping for
12:17
clothes. They'll tell you if, like this
12:19
brand is likely using factories that use slave labour for your
12:25
clothing. So, like, these are the kind of
12:27
things that HRF does. We also famously do the Oslo
12:32
Freedom Forum, which happens every single year in Oslo.
12:37
And you know, that is a stage for people that have been freed
12:40
from prison to tell their stories.
12:43
That is a stage for activists and for kind of.
12:50
I would say like macro level change and talk about freedom
12:54
and that activism it's, I mean like that's where like in
12:57
practice it's very different than Bitcoin Magazine.
12:59
You know it's just so much more serious.
13:02
The production value is on both cases very high on their events.
13:08
So like I think that's a pretty good high level of like HRF, so
13:12
the financial freedom track. So one of the the most
13:14
interesting things about HRF is because we're technologically
13:18
advanced. And we see the the importance of
13:22
financial freedom and in someone's ability to be free in
13:27
general. We were early to Bitcoin and you
13:31
can put a lot of that credit to Gladstein.
13:34
But Gladstein, you know, it was early to Bitcoin, you know,
13:38
create a lot of great work around Bitcoin, created the
13:41
initiative that is the Bitcoin Development Fund, and it was
13:44
able to get a lot of support for it.
13:47
And you know, now the Bitcoin Development Fund is very
13:50
sustainable. And you know, we are trying to
13:53
fund open source development and community education across the
13:57
globe and really focused on in terms of both education and
14:01
development is like initiatives that are going to make Bitcoin
14:04
more accessible. So right now Bitcoin is
14:06
predominantly like all the all the documentation is in English.
14:11
So how do we get that in other languages right?
14:14
Same with the the education of the content.
14:17
I think AI is going to be a big part of this, but translating
14:19
all of this content that we're making all the time here on
14:21
simply Bitcoin into every other language that is meaningful, you
14:25
know that is going to take resources.
14:28
So we do a lot of translating, we help people that are doing
14:31
that stuff. We'll help people by creating
14:32
meet spaces for bitcoiners to come together, whether that's
14:35
conferences or whether that's third person spaces that are
14:38
permanent. You know that like that has been
14:42
kind of like the scope of the work is development work and
14:45
community and education work. So on the development side, how
14:48
do we make Bitcoin more accessible?
14:50
OK, so how do you, how do you make Lightning Network?
14:52
How do you have a static QR code for a Lightning network?
14:54
So put out non keys for that. I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm
14:57
gonna stop you there. Because I have a question,
14:59
right? Which is go for it.
15:00
The importance of propagating democracy, right.
15:04
And then the importance of Bitcoin as a tool.
15:07
So how is Bitcoin used as a tool?
15:10
Like how does Bitcoin help democracy?
15:15
Well, I would say like the reason why democracy is
15:18
important because democracy is a great vehicle for human freedom
15:22
and and greater human freedom even if it's not perfect.
15:26
And then I would say like Bitcoin, the reason why HRF is
15:29
aligned Bitcoins, Bitcoin is a technological innovation like
15:32
encryption. Like the World Wide Web in
15:35
general, that is a huge pro for human freedom.
15:41
And I think when it comes to how Bitcoin's used in practice for
15:49
for dissidents, for journalists, for people who would want to
15:54
stand up against the dictator, is Bitcoin gives them a way to
15:56
raise money and have money and use money that can't be.
16:01
That can't be frozen easily by that dictator.
16:04
So we've seen that largely digital money has been a huge
16:08
tool for dictators. Now, now the people have digital
16:12
money. So we have to teach about that,
16:14
right, Because that increases human freedom.
16:16
And ultimately, if you want to have a democracy, you need to
16:19
have be able to have press and you need to be able to organize
16:24
and in order to do those things without being completely.
16:28
Paralyzed is you need to be able to have and spend money.
16:33
So I think we think it's fundamental and again that's one
16:37
of that's one of HR, FS biggest differentiators is that no one
16:40
else working in this sphere other than bitcoiners directly,
16:44
you know are are doing that. And I I honestly think that HR
16:48
FS narrative around Bitcoin, the human rights narrative is the
16:52
most bulletproof, you know. I'll be the first to tell you
16:55
that you can't be a humanity, that you can't be an
16:58
environmentalist unless you embrace Bitcoin.
17:00
But the environmental narrative is less bulletproof to ignore
17:03
me, but the humanitarian narrative is, I think, much more
17:07
bulletproof to ignore me. And it's it's one of the easiest
17:11
ones to propagate at this stage of Bitcoin, even though it's
17:15
just one of many positives of this technology.
17:19
Gotcha. Gotcha.
17:21
Interesting. Interesting.
17:22
I, I, I, OK, OK. And I I love the way that you
17:26
described the, the way that you described the differences
17:32
between Bitcoin Magazine and then where you're at in the
17:37
Human Rights Foundation, 'cause, you know, Opti and I were joking
17:41
about this. And of course we're much
17:42
younger. You know, we're, we're what, a
17:44
couple years old? Bitcoin magazine's over a decade
17:48
or old, right? It's a very well established
17:51
media organization, media company and optine.
17:54
I realized like about a year and a half in we're like, dude, like
17:58
we're propagandist, bro, like like straight up, like you come
18:03
to that conclusion, It's like we're really just propagandists.
18:05
Like that's really what we're doing like every single day.
18:10
And then, you know, you kind of go into the rabbit hole of like
18:14
just, you know, the legacy media is just trying to compete for
18:17
attention just like you are. Like how are you going to get
18:19
people to listen to you rather than to listen to this
18:23
so-called, well established media organization like the Wall
18:26
Street Journal dropping fake news.
18:28
Right. But that veneer I think is
18:31
slowly coming off. So yeah, man, it's.
18:34
So first of all, I'm super happy for you dude.
18:36
Congrats, Human Rights Foundation.
18:39
That's awesome. Absolutely.
18:40
Love Alex. Love his work.
18:42
So that's really, really, that's really awesome that that you
18:46
left. So let me ask you something.
18:48
And perhaps this is a personal question, but you know, you
18:51
obviously, you know, love Bitcoin Magazine.
18:54
You built something great there. You built something amazing.
18:57
Why did you feel like it was the time to take a next step in your
19:02
life? Yeah, no, that's a great
19:07
question. You know, I don't really
19:11
consider myself of like Left Bitcoin Magazine 100%.
19:14
You know, it was a very. I think it was like a very well
19:19
planned exit where there's a lot of time and planning associated
19:24
with it and it was very smooth and everyone's on super good
19:28
terms. So I definitely think that
19:31
there's room, you know, I'm very supportive of them and there's
19:34
room for like, you know, I'm repping Bitcoin Magazine right
19:36
now. So there's definitely room for
19:39
me to be a part of that organization in a much lesser
19:43
degree in the future, I think like.
19:46
With like, I was involved in every project at Bitcoin
19:48
Magazine. So like one, the org needed to
19:52
grow away from someone who does that role.
19:55
And then two, like there just needs to be time separating me
19:58
from, you know, that level of responsibility.
20:01
So you know, who knows what the future holds.
20:05
But specifically why it was time for a new challenge was, you
20:10
know, I just saw that there's so many.
20:14
One. For the first time in probably
20:17
three years at Bitcoin Magazine. Like I've been there 5 1/2
20:20
years, but three years when I was like a leader, it was like
20:24
kind of clear to me that they didn't really need me.
20:27
Like everything was would be in a good place if I had
20:31
disappeared, if you will, versus like you know, things would
20:35
definitely have fallen apart on on several different levels, you
20:40
know, prior. So, like, that made me
20:42
optimistic. And then, you know, I've just
20:44
been working a lot and burnt out.
20:46
So I needed like, I took like 6 1/2 weeks off and learned how to
20:50
golf. You know, after I, I took some
20:52
time off from Bitcoin. Magazine.
20:54
I envy. I envy that.
20:55
I don't know what that feels like anymore.
20:57
It feels great. It feels great.
20:59
So, you know, I just really acknowledge like it was time for
21:02
like a life reset for me and Bitcoin Magazine was in a good
21:07
spot. Like, I feel like I could look
21:09
back and be super proud and like, know that.
21:12
Like, I feel like they're crushing it.
21:14
I went to Bitcoin Amsterdam. It was awesome.
21:16
Pretty success. You know, they did that without
21:18
me. I left 100 days before that
21:20
event. Bitcoin Magazine online, their
21:23
latest Bitcoin magazine, the Twitter account, you know,
21:27
they're they're they're rocking and rolling.
21:29
And you know, I know how hard it is for them to be rocking and
21:32
rolling like they are at this moment.
21:34
You know, kind of given, you know going cutting the company
21:37
in half effectively over the course of six months, but at the
21:41
same time like you know, proud of those guys on my end, you
21:47
know, I didn't get poached or anything like that.
21:50
I I wanted to, I didn't imply. That.
21:54
Yeah. Yeah.
21:54
Yeah. No.
21:55
You know, I I just, I needed a a live change And then as part of
21:59
like you know just having conversations with people I
22:01
trusted Gladstine was like hey, you know I need someone to do
22:06
this at at the financial freedom team and things would be
22:10
perfect. And we agreed.
22:13
And then from there, it was just like, how to make this reality.
22:16
Gotcha. So what's your new role?
22:19
Human rights found? Yeah, we probably should have
22:21
started with that. Yeah, no, pretty much.
22:25
So people don't know this, But like Gladstone's role as the
22:28
Chief Strategy Officer at HRF, he's in charge of like 3
22:32
different teams, including the Bitcoin team.
22:35
The the the Bitcoin team is a financial freedom team.
22:39
So my title is director of financial freedom and so my job
22:42
is to like lead the financial freedom team which is the
22:44
Bitcoin team. So it's a huge honor it's a lot
22:47
of fun that that what is the job like what is leading that
22:52
financial freedom team? That's the Bitcoin Development
22:55
Fund. We give quite a bit of money out
23:00
every single quarter to developers and and and community
23:04
education. And then we do, we're going to
23:08
be spinning up our own education.
23:10
So we're we're going to be spinning up a newsletter in two
23:13
weeks around telling human rights and Bitcoin and human
23:18
rights stories. So I think this is a resource
23:21
that you're going to be super interested in at Simply Bitcoin.
23:24
It's going to create a lot of great educational material for
23:28
people to share. So I'm super excited about that.
23:32
And then you know we we do Bitcoin programming at the Oslo
23:36
Freedom event. So like a third of the
23:38
programming is Bitcoin programming at this point.
23:40
So like HRF is all in on Bitcoin.
23:44
So we have that we do we do a couple of retreats and some
23:47
summits every year. So you know I got I'm, I'm busy
23:52
already man. You know we got content we got
23:54
events so we got we got developers to fund and
23:57
communities to to fund. So doing really great work and
24:02
you know, my main job is to give Gladstein back a lot of his time
24:06
and make sure that the the, the Bitcoin Development Fund and the
24:09
Financial Freedom team are running like a well oiled
24:12
machine so he can he can do his magic full time.
24:16
Gotcha. Well, that's again,
24:18
congratulations. That's awesome.
24:20
I've always been a a big fan of of Gladstein's work and the
24:24
Human Rights Foundation, but I think you buried the lead there
24:28
CK when you were talking about the Ozlem Freedom Forum.
24:32
You said that a third of the programming is about Bitcoin.
24:38
Is Bitcoin freedom? Does Bitcoin and freedom go hand
24:41
in hand? I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm sensing
24:44
something here. I mean honestly I think we're
24:48
we're definitely early to to that being a mainstream
24:51
narrative. But yeah, I mean HRF is
24:54
definitely, you know, one, I think we're 100% on board
24:57
Bitcoin, but the proof is in the pudding.
25:00
You know, look at how many resources were given towards our
25:03
Bitcoin program and look at how much time in terms of the
25:07
programming on the Oslo freedom event, our mainstage event that
25:12
we're giving the Bitcoin. I went to the most recent one
25:15
this past June. Big reason why I joined the
25:17
company. VIP Event Super Elite Guest List
25:23
of Bitcoiners Activists VI PS in general Just high high high
25:31
impact, high high, high production value, very high
25:34
quality experience. I'm like, I was like, wow, this
25:38
is a place that knows how to execute and deliver, and it's a
25:44
place that I could see myself going to.
25:47
Gotcha. Gotcha.
25:49
No, that's awesome man. And and dude, we're orange
25:51
peeling all these activists and all these rich guys and all the
25:54
everyone else who has been going to Oslo for years before before
25:58
we integrated Bitcoin. Yeah, man.
26:00
I mean, and and I've seen some of those activists I think you
26:04
had, which it plays a special, you know, special role in my
26:07
heart. I think you had candidates or
26:10
you know, essentially opposition candidates from Venezuela, if my
26:15
memory serves me correctly. I think you you hosted one or
26:19
two Leonardo. Yeah, yeah.
26:22
And you know, so I I I think that, you know, when I saw that,
26:26
I was like, really, no one else is really giving these people a
26:30
platform. But you know what's going on,
26:35
You know, I'm sorry about that as well, cuz it's really.
26:39
I live in Miami. It's you.
26:42
Yeah, I have a there's a lot of Cubans here, but I don't really
26:45
have family in Cuba. I have family in Venezuela.
26:47
So I hear what's going on, and it's an absolute tragedy
26:55
disguised as democracy. But.
26:59
If you look under the hood, it's absolutely not democracy
27:01
whatsoever. So I'm just careful say that's
27:04
not democracy. That's not so.
27:05
What do you what do you guys define as what a democracy is.
27:10
So I'm not the best person to answer that in terms of like HR,
27:13
FS official stance. But there's a whole like,
27:16
there's there's very obvious division of power and freedoms
27:20
and liberties and like a really good, a really good indication
27:25
of like is this a real democracy is can you get paid to make fun
27:28
of the government? Can you make a living to make
27:30
fun of the government? And if the answer to that is no,
27:33
even if there's voting, it's probably a dictatorship because
27:36
you can't speak up against the government.
27:38
So if you can't speak up against the government, it's probably
27:40
not real democracy. You know, democracies require,
27:44
you know, obviously representation and and voting to
27:47
some degree. But they also require a level of
27:51
free speech and ability to organize that enables opposition
27:55
to exist and change of power. That's that's like I think some
27:59
of the the key homeworks. I think, I think the way that
28:03
you described it is can you get paid in your country to make fun
28:07
of the government like that is that is so I think that's the
28:11
way that that that's I think that's a that's a really, really
28:14
fair description. So CK, you're one of the most
28:18
bullish people that I know. OK.
28:22
And I'm pretty bullish and opti's, I love you, Opti.
28:26
Opti's stupid bullish, OK, he's, he's ultra bullish, OK.
28:30
But you are incredibly, incredibly bullish And one of
28:35
the, you know, talking points that you say is we are still
28:39
early And then what my response to be, what my bearish response
28:44
to that would be is how could you say that you know bitcoins?
28:50
Best days are behind us. You know the exponential gains,
28:55
right? Is a lot of you know, the one
28:58
full Bitcoin is unaffordable for most people.
29:00
You know, I'm just reading out the talking points that, you
29:03
know, we hear millions and millions of times.
29:07
What? What has you still so bullish?
29:09
What? Why do you feel so optimistic
29:11
about Bitcoin's future? Oh man, this is a I could spend
29:19
an hour on this one and I feel like I'm I'm often a broken
29:22
record. I guess, you know, let's just
29:27
let's just try to talk about this, both theoretically but
29:32
from first principles. So what I would say is, like
29:38
most bitcoiners would agree with me in saying that the reason
29:42
they're excited about Bitcoin is because it is a paradigm shift.
29:47
Would you do with that? Absolutely.
29:50
OK, so if you believe that the reason Bitcoin is so exciting is
29:54
that it is a paradigm shift, then I think it it only makes
30:03
sense to believe that if it truly is a paradigm shift then
30:09
the old paradigm can't exist because like think of any other
30:13
paradigm shift where the old paradigm could also coexist with
30:16
the new paradigm. I think that that's fair to say
30:19
like hey gunpowder is invented. If you don't upgrade to
30:22
gunpowder you're done. Like nuclear is invented.
30:25
If you don't upgrade to nuclear you're done.
30:27
Like you are subordinate now. And that that's literally the
30:30
paradigm now. It's like the nuclear powers
30:33
pushing on the non nuclear powers you know and
30:36
subordinating them. So if Bitcoin is a paradigm
30:42
shift, the idea that Bitcoin is just could just be some other
30:48
asset could exist with all other assets without like demonetizing
30:53
them. Could exist with the dollar
30:55
without fundamentally changing and warping the dollar to shape
30:59
to Bitcoin. Like to me that that's an
31:02
inconsistent belief. So I I usually spell this out to
31:08
say that with Bitcoin there's three logical scenarios for
31:12
Bitcoin. Scenario number one is hyper
31:14
bitcoinization Infinity divided by 21 million.
31:17
Bitcoin is a substrate straight for value, communication,
31:21
transfer, etcetera. Situation #2 is Bitcoin fails.
31:28
There can be a number of reason why Bitcoin fails.
31:31
Bitcoin could become obsoleted by some other competitor.
31:35
Bitcoin could be corrupted. I think the the the most likely
31:39
scenario for Bitcoin fails is that the game theory is broken
31:43
and therefore like the fundamentals of what keeps the
31:46
network going breakdown. Because Bitcoin's almost like
31:49
it's like propelling itself into the future.
31:51
So like if the game theory breaks like it like the shit
31:55
coiners will be right and and Bitcoin won't propel itself into
31:58
the future if you will. So scenario #2 is Bitcoin breaks
32:04
effectively and Bitcoin becomes obsolete.
32:07
No one gives a shit about Bitcoin.
32:09
Just think about like hey you know we have because you know
32:13
the Internet stack is built on what's it called IP.
32:19
What's it IP over whatever. I'm I'm blanking out.
32:23
Who gives a shit Who gives a shit?
32:25
There was there was actually a protocol war leading up to that.
32:28
No one thinks about the other protocols.
32:30
No one talks about the other protocols like Bitcoin could be
32:33
one of those other protocols. I don't think that's the case
32:35
but like we have to like have room for that to to to be a
32:38
possibility, possibility number. Like logical scenario #3 is
32:42
Bitcoin is just some other asset which I think most bitcoiners,
32:47
their world view of Bitcoin is that like that at Bitcoin's peak
32:50
it's a very relevant asset amongst other assets.
32:53
And what I would argue is that, like, that belief is
32:57
fundamentally like it. It it cannot exist in a world
33:01
where you also believe that Bitcoin's a paradigm shift.
33:05
Like. So if Bitcoin is a paradigm
33:07
shift, that actually makes paradigm #3 the least likely,
33:10
because that pretty much says Bitcoin, that that scenario says
33:13
Bitcoin's not a paradigm shift. It's not a paradigm shift in
33:16
value transfer. It's not that paradigm shift in
33:19
value communication, It's just it maybe it's just a highly
33:23
competitive, scarce asset. That's not a paradigm shift that
33:28
doesn't change the game where everyone else has to adapt to
33:30
it. So if Bitcoin, you can't hold
33:34
the idea that Bitcoin's a paradigm shift and also believe
33:37
in like let's say Bitcoin is successful but not hyper
33:40
bitcoinization, I just don't think that you those things go
33:43
together. So the only two scenarios if
33:47
Bitcoin's a paradigm shift is OK like what does hyper
33:51
bitcoinization look like? Or like what the fuck do you do
33:56
if Bitcoin fails? And the answer to that is you
33:58
probably want guns. But so you know, on one hand is,
34:03
you know, get guns and then what does Bitcoin look like?
34:06
It like what does the world look like with hyper bitcoinization.
34:10
OK, well if Bitcoin's a paradigm shift in value communication
34:16
that and value organization and and how we and how we manage
34:22
ourselves. I think Bitcoiners will agree
34:24
that you know, if Bitcoin's a paradigm shift, that's how it is
34:27
a paradigm shift, then not only is it Infinity divided by 21
34:32
million, but Bitcoin also makes Infinity get bigger because it
34:36
increases human prosperity, increases our ability to to, you
34:42
know, create value. But if it's a paradigm shift,
34:45
Infinity doesn't increase like you know, marginally Infinity
34:49
increases exponentially because that's what paradigm shifts do,
34:53
right. Like if you look at what the
34:55
world look like pre electrification to now.
34:58
Like not only could no one back then like tell you what the
35:01
world was going to look like post electrification, but like
35:04
it's exponentially more productive than it was before.
35:08
So like it's hard for us to be like look at ourselves and be
35:11
like hey, we live in an ancient world with ancient technology
35:15
from a future perspective and Bitcoin's a paradigm shift that
35:18
unleashes that future world. But if it in fact is a paradigm
35:22
shift, then the only way to think about the future is that
35:26
it's going to make Infinity exponentially bigger.
35:29
And therefore, when you try to like, think through what is
35:32
Infinity divided by 21 million, it has to be exponentially
35:36
bigger than you could ever imagine.
35:39
Because that's what paradigm shifts divided by finite scarce
35:44
Ledger, you know, means. So I'm just like, I know.
35:49
I just like went on a. Huge.
35:49
No, no, no. Like I hope that makes.
35:52
Sense and I would, I would, I would pay for you to keep going
35:55
for another three hours. But the way that you described
35:58
it I think is very accurate. I, I do believe Bitcoin's
36:02
success is black and white. I do think it's, it's, it's it's
36:06
binary so to speak, right. It's it's it's either going to
36:10
go forever, Laura, or you know, or this thing fails now.
36:15
So it's kind of break. Let's 'cause there's a lot to
36:17
unpack there, but let's break down one of the first elements.
36:20
You say bitcoins, incentive structures break.
36:23
So you know, I'm sure you've gone down this rabbit hole.
36:27
Clearly you've put some thought into this.
36:29
What are what? Like throw some ideas What, what
36:33
would that mean? What would that entail if
36:35
something like that were to happen?
36:39
OK, so the best way that I think through, like how Bitcoin works,
36:47
like the way that I think about it, is Satoshi came up with a
36:51
scientific discovery slash invention that allowed us to
36:57
take a cocktail of things and formulate A provably scarce,
37:04
finite amount of of units that are, you know it, it goes beyond
37:10
gold because they're synthetically scarce.
37:12
They're not just naturally scarce.
37:14
So gold was the ultimately, naturally the ultimate naturally
37:17
scarce thing. So Satoshi came up with a
37:19
scientific innovation that created this.
37:21
So it's like this is something that was never possible before
37:24
Satoshi's invention and the the whole thing, it's like it's
37:30
constantly in motion and because it effectively kills, it pays
37:36
people to keep it alive. So if for whatever reason, the
37:42
mechanism in which it can pay people to keep it alive breaks
37:46
down, that's what I'm saying is like that, that's Bitcoin, like
37:51
it's incentive structure breaking down.
37:53
I think that is the the hot like if Bitcoin were to fail that's
37:56
the the highest likely reason why it has failed of all the
38:01
reasons why it could fail or or become irrelevant because of
38:04
something else. You know, again I think like if
38:08
you're being honest, you have to like open the chance like
38:10
Bitcoin could be made irrelevant.
38:12
Like I don't think like it could be.
38:14
Like I think it's very unlikely that happens but like it could
38:16
be. And part of that is like
38:20
Bitcoin's incentive structure breaks.
38:22
You know that's really the shit coiner argument.
38:24
The shit coiner argument is buy my shit coin because it does
38:28
Bitcoin better and Bitcoin's incentive structure will break
38:32
in the future. And so that's why you need to
38:35
make the compromises to and and get my shit coin.
38:38
You know, like that. That's, that's the summarization
38:41
of every shit coin argument. Effectively, it's my shit coin
38:45
is this way. And it's better because of these
38:47
changes, because Bitcoin's broken fundamentally in the
38:51
future. Gotcha.
38:54
Interesting. OK, so that is one scenario.
38:57
Let's talk more about the paradigm shift.
39:01
What gets me really, really excited?
39:02
One of the things that I remember you told me, I think.
39:06
You were nice enough to let me record an episode of IRL in the
39:11
Bitcoin Magazine offices in Nashville.
39:14
That was fun. That was fun to trip you when
39:17
you were when you were in Nash, You and Sophie.
39:19
That was yeah man we had a great time we'll be there soon.
39:22
We'll be there soon next year for the for for the next
39:27
conference so. But it was very kind of you to
39:29
to let me record an episode there.
39:32
And I remember one of the things he told me and it never left my
39:35
mind, which was it changes your operating system, it changes
39:43
your your mindset. And it's a talking point that
39:47
I've used a lot because it's such a great way of describing
39:52
it, right? People are on this like Fiat,
39:54
nihilistic inflationary mindset. And then, you know, like the NPC
40:00
meme, you take out the chip and then you put in the Bitcoin
40:03
chip, and then all of a sudden you're on a deflationary,
40:07
optimistic, happier minds. It's like it just changes the
40:12
world completely. And the vast majority of people
40:14
have not woken up to that. So I don't know if you want to
40:17
add to that a little bit. Yeah.
40:21
No, I mean, I think that, look, I just want to preface this to
40:26
that if you accept that it's impossible to be bullish enough
40:31
and that it's impossible to accurately predict where
40:35
bitcoins going to go, then you start making predictions
40:39
differently. And your, I think your
40:40
predictions are based off of like mental models.
40:43
So I think it's super important to have like mental models for
40:47
how you think bitcoins going to play out because that's the only
40:50
way to like even have remotely directionally correct mental
40:54
model or predictions. So all of us are in the game of
40:57
predicting what bitcoins going to do because we're all hodling
41:01
to have some sort of personal outcome, beneficiary outcome.
41:05
So that means that you got to have good mental models for
41:09
Bitcoin if you want to have the most Bitcoin in the future.
41:12
So I think one of the best ways to and best ways to view Bitcoin
41:16
especially as a paradigm shift. It's like a paradigm shift in
41:20
how we think about money and how we think about value.
41:23
And that's part of, that's part of why Infinity gets bigger
41:27
because we it's like we upgraded our mental model or we upgraded
41:31
our mental operating system. All money is an operating
41:34
system. Like the economists implicitly
41:37
say this when they say that we're targeting this inflation
41:40
rate because it's going to make people behave a certain way,
41:43
right. It literally, it's like your
41:44
incentive system. It is an operating system for
41:48
making decisions about your value, making your decisions
41:50
about your time, as the Austrians would say.
41:53
So you know if everyone is operating on the dollar
41:58
operating system or some version of the dollar operating system.
42:02
Since pretty much all fiats are just kind of like, you know,
42:06
they're kind of like shitty add-ons to the dollar system.
42:11
And Bitcoin is like a whole new brand new monetary system
42:14
completely outside of that. And then we've all like
42:17
anecdotally talked about how like when you adopt Bitcoin, you
42:20
behave differently. You start seeing the world
42:21
differently, you start seeing health differently, you start
42:24
seeing priorities differently, You start seeing
42:26
entrepreneurship differently, You start, you stop, start
42:29
seeing opportunity differently. It changes everything, right?
42:32
So like, that's anecdotal, but I would say from a mental model
42:36
perspective is like, it's like you upgraded your mental model,
42:39
you upgraded your, you upgraded your mental operating system.
42:44
Another good way of like articulating this is Parker
42:48
Lewis. He says Bitcoin is counter
42:50
intuitive and then Bitcoin's hyper intuitive.
42:54
So I would say it's like yeah, so when you are operating on the
42:57
Fiat mindset, bitcoin's super counter intuitive but once you
43:00
put in the work and you go far enough down the the the rabbit
43:04
hole that you can upgrade your operating system and switch to
43:07
Bitcoin all of a sudden becomes hyper intuitive because you're
43:09
operating on the Bitcoin mindset.
43:11
So again, like, again, like I, the fact that people change
43:15
their behavior and become arguably more successful when
43:18
they adopt Bitcoin, that's anecdotal.
43:22
I think it's like a good sign that Bitcoin's actually a
43:25
paradigm shift. Like, I think it's a, it's just
43:28
good anecdotal evidence and I see everywhere.
43:31
So, you know, there's a reason I'm bullish is because I think,
43:35
like, I think I'm just being a consistent Bitcoiner, that's
43:37
all, dude. Like all these bitcoiners are
43:40
larping that bitcoin's a paradigm shift.
43:41
I agree, except I actually think I'm thinking through like what
43:45
are the implications of that? You know, given hype like hyper
43:48
bitcoinization and Bitcoin being a quote UN quote paradigm shift.
43:53
Gotcha. And yeah, I completely agree.
43:56
I think else look I don't think it's a coincidence that the
44:00
first country. That made Bitcoin legal tender.
44:04
They fixed the base layer of society, therefore they fixed
44:07
the incentive structure. I don't think it's a coincidence
44:11
that that president actually did the things that he said he was
44:16
going to do if he were to get elected.
44:19
Not to mention the fact that he's one of the most popular
44:21
presidents in the Americas. Like like I think, you know, I
44:25
think that's a that's an example of of of what you're saying.
44:31
And of course, what it's done to my life personally, what it's
44:34
done to opti's life, what it's done to my family's life, what
44:38
it's done to just bitcoiners around me, right?
44:41
Like, you know that saying like Bitcoin truly fixes this.
44:44
It does it. It gives you hope for the
44:46
future. It gives you optimism for the
44:47
future. Or perhaps you might have, you
44:51
might have not had in the past. So what's your timeline on this?
44:57
CK 'cause I think that's another thing that.
45:00
You know, we've like what I got in 2016.
45:05
I've been here for a minute, but like, every single, every single
45:09
day working in Bitcoin is effing brutal, bro.
45:13
OK, they don't call it the Bitcoin roller coaster for no
45:16
reason. You know, you work at a Bitcoin
45:19
company. You feel this.
45:20
I work at 2 Bitcoin companies. And you feel the impact two
45:24
times and it is such a roller coaster ride.
45:30
I feel like the fires, bro. Bro, literally, I wake up in the
45:34
morning and I'm like, holy cow, I can't.
45:41
We still do a show every fucking day.
45:43
Bro, yeah, yeah. I wake up at 2:00 in the morning
45:45
and I'm like Oh my God, it's Corey on Slack type of thing.
45:49
So like, yeah, bro, it's you know, but it's super, super
45:54
purposeful. It.
45:57
It's super, super, you know, you felt this, bro.
45:59
You you worked at, you know, the largest Bitcoin only media
46:02
organization in the world. A super fulfilling work, but it
46:08
is totally a grind. And when you were talking about
46:11
that vacation, you said I took six weeks.
46:13
I don't even know what that feels like, bro.
46:15
You say that I'm like, I don't even know.
46:17
I think I took five days off without, you know, wanting to to
46:22
to how did you, how did you resist your slack addiction?
46:26
What did you do? You just do your phone.
46:30
I deleted Slack off my phone. I've taken.
46:33
I've taken like 2-3 week vacations while working at
46:35
Bitcoin Magazine, but I've always had a Slack addiction.
46:40
But no. Yeah, so like, you know, when
46:43
you leave a company, like they take away your, your, your
46:48
authentication privileges to get into the whole tech stack.
46:52
So, yeah. And then I just deleted all the
46:54
apps that I used to use. And then I pretty much, you
46:56
know, I joined HRF, you know, shortly after, like giving
47:00
notice to Bitcoin Magazine in terms of like, I signed the
47:05
documentation, stuff like that. But I was like, hey, just don't
47:08
give me an e-mail. Don't talk to me.
47:11
Like, I'm starting at this date. Like, I don't want to hear from
47:14
you until then. And they respected that.
47:16
And dude, holy shit. I, like was like having like
47:21
kind of personal calls with bitcoiners that, you know,
47:23
worked with me at Bitcoin Magazine.
47:25
And, you know, a number of those calls, people were like, man,
47:28
you look so relaxed. And I was like, I am, well,
47:32
like, you know, part of, like, you know, my journey and leaving
47:35
Bitcoin Magazine is like, you know, at the end of it, like I
47:38
went from hosting like 3 shows at the same time to like now I'm
47:42
hosting 0 shows, right. So, like, there's no way that
47:45
you like, you know, get get all the way there unless you like,
47:48
fully exit, you know, kind of all your obligations.
47:51
Yeah, yeah, I got you. Well, man, Well, holy cow.
47:56
OK, So what is the? What is the timeline here, CK?
48:04
How long? Yeah, so yeah, how we're jumping
48:06
all around. How long is this?
48:08
I know we haven't. We haven't caught up in a while.
48:10
We're just caught. We're catching up live, yeah.
48:13
Catching up and and talking bullishness simultaneously.
48:19
So dude, like, I'm on record saying I think it's this decade.
48:22
You know, now that we're entering closer to Bitcoin, you
48:25
know, now that we're getting closer to 2024, which is like,
48:29
you know, close to 50% through this decade.
48:32
You know, maybe I see this decade is like the the mental
48:36
paradigm shift for the world. And then next decade is kind of
48:39
like the building on Bitcoin, building on Bitcoin really
48:42
starts, you know, you know, I think, like, honestly, we're way
48:48
earlier than most Bitcoiners think we are.
48:51
So like in terms of raw numbers, we're way earlier, definitely
48:54
less than 1% of real Bitcoin adoption in terms of global
48:58
numbers. But I think Bitcoin's also going
49:02
to like come way faster than we think.
49:05
You know it's it really is going to be like gradually, gradually,
49:08
gradually, so effing painful, so effing painful.
49:11
Just like every bear, like you know, every bull market bear
49:14
market vibe is like almost like a microcosm of like what that
49:18
giant, what the giant green candle of hyper bitcoinization
49:23
is going to look like. But you know, really it's like
49:26
it's just slow, slow, slow, slow, slow grind and then the
49:31
hype and then the hyper adoption phase.
49:34
And ultimately, you know, if I'm right, if we are less than 1%
49:38
adoption, that means, that means with all this price action
49:44
that's already happened and all the Bitcoin that's already been
49:47
mined that if you look at the S curve of adoption.
49:51
So you can just Google that right now technological S curve
49:54
of adoption really like the S is like a pretty shallow S in terms
49:59
of like it's long and and fat. And then the part where it goes
50:03
from the bottom of the S to the top of the S that is time wise
50:07
is a very short period in like the total S And so I guess what
50:13
I'm trying to say is that. Yeah, so.
50:18
Where are we, CK? If we're less than 1%, we're
50:21
before the innovators, right? Like we're before the
50:25
innovators. Bunker down Opti.
50:29
Yeah, like that means everything that we've seen has been
50:32
nothing. Like if you take a like a, you
50:35
know your your mouse and you just like hover over the early
50:38
majority, late majority stage like that's the mega candle.
50:42
You know right here that's like a year of just like the world
50:46
flipping or whatever. But like you know we got you
50:49
know honestly like with as long as the things have been going so
50:52
far, you know just trying to like map that over like this.
50:55
This could be like 10 years you know so this like early
50:59
majority. So maybe the 30s are the early
51:01
majority of the late majority. Like I think like this this
51:05
decade like we'll we'll probably get, we'll probably get to the
51:09
early adopter level which is like 10% global adoption And
51:14
honestly like I would not be shocked if it was like all
51:17
packed 202720282029 if like the majority of like adoption this
51:22
decade happens right at the end. Yeah, that basically the the the
51:27
years after the next, the next having.
51:30
So not this having the next one. And I mean dude, like if you
51:36
take into account how many Bitcoin have been mined, how
51:39
early we are like just raw people wise.
51:42
And then like you know how far we need to go in terms of total
51:46
market penetration divided by 21,000,000 / 1,000,000 coins
51:51
left to be mined. However many Satoshi's.
51:53
That is like just like we can't even begin to comprehend how
51:58
much a value of the SAT is going to be on the other side of the
52:01
S. Yeah, yeah.
52:04
No, it's. It's.
52:07
It's a it the I remember having a conversation with Luke Broyles
52:11
and he was trying to explain to me how it's hard for human
52:14
beings to understand exponentials.
52:16
Our minds just don't like we can't.
52:20
Rapper, rapper Opti's All right, last question, I do want to be
52:26
respectful of CK's time. We are getting close to the top
52:29
of the hour, Opti asks. So is 37 SAT's still
52:34
generational wealth? Question mark, exclamation mark,
52:38
question mark. The the answer is yes, like in
52:43
the in the case that hyper bitcoinization happens then
52:45
absolutely. And I'll I'll explain why. 37
52:49
SAT's. So 37 SAT's is the block subsidy
52:52
in 95 years. And so the idea behind that is
52:57
that, OK, if hyper bitcoinization happens and the
53:02
arc of human prosperity continues, then it's fair to say
53:07
that all we know, like we don't know what the fees are going to
53:12
be like. We don't know what the future
53:13
Bitcoin stack is going to look like.
53:14
But we do know that 95 years, 37 stats will be the block subsidy.
53:18
So we know that if Bitcoin works more hashes then we can
53:23
comprehend will be pointed at getting those 37 stats.
53:27
So therefore, and you know again with the arc of human innovation
53:32
and prosperity over time, in a an optimistic worldview, I think
53:38
it's fair to say that you know last over the course of last 95
53:42
years, like the common man in the West lives a higher quality
53:45
of life than a king 95 years ago.
53:49
You know, like people don't realize that 95 years ago wasn't
53:52
that long ago that it we were at the beginning of World War One.
53:57
There was still kings in heiresses and theocracy and all
54:02
this stuff in Europe, like democracy in Europe, like that's
54:05
less than 100 years old. Y'all, you know, So Bitcoin,
54:09
like we don't even get out of the first phase of Bitcoin for
54:12
100 years. But in 95 years, given the arc
54:16
of, you know, progress, I think it's safe to say that like the
54:20
average human life quality will increase exponentially.
54:24
And if, you know, if Bitcoin continues to work, if the game
54:28
theory holds up and the the blocks of these three seven
54:31
sets, then a way more hashes are going to be pointed at it.
54:34
So in today's wealth, yeah, absolutely 37 sets in 95 years
54:40
will be generational wealth for what what we interpret as
54:43
generational wealth maybe actually then it'll be
54:46
generational wealth as well. Because I personally think we're
54:49
going to subsat in terms of like we're going to have to keep
54:52
dividing it down in order to you know to keep you know scaling to
54:57
the level of commerce that you know we're going to get to in
55:00
the future. You know we're we're talking
55:02
about micro payments across you know AI networks.
55:07
You know like who knows that's the beginning of like what we're
55:09
predicting right. So the we're we're just
55:12
beginning to to get into like what the future holds and I
55:15
think we're going, I think we're going lower than SAT.
55:17
So you know maybe 37 SAT so we'll be like 37 million in
55:21
terms of like what we're denominating should in in the
55:23
future and you know that guess what one Bitcoin is.
55:27
So that's that's that's sovereign status.
55:31
All right guys, you heard it here.
55:33
That it's what CK just said is rant is why you ain't bullish
55:38
enough. Anyways, guys, check out CK.
55:41
You can follow him at CK under score Snarks on Bitcoin Twitter.
55:46
I'm absolutely sure you have a noster as well.
55:49
CK It's an absolute honor for for you to join us today on
55:53
Simply Bitcoin IRL. Really, really appreciate you
55:55
brother, and hope to see you in the flesh soon.
55:59
In Nashville or something. Or something.
56:02
Hey, we'll we'll link up offline and and see if we can, if we can
56:06
organize something. Yeah.
56:07
Noster, check out primal.net/cki got that juicy, primal URL.
56:14
So yeah, you can find me there. Sniped it.
56:17
All right. Well, CK, thank you so much.
56:18
Like I said, absolute honor for for you to join us today, guys.
56:22
If you enjoyed the show, you know what to do.
56:23
Smash that like button. Consider subscribing.
56:25
We'll be back tomorrow, 12:15 PM Eastern Standard Time for
56:28
another episode of Simply Bitcoin Live.
56:31
Peace out, everybody.