Latest / Project Podcast / Using a systems thinking approach to select successful projects

Transcript

Using a systems thinking approach to select successful projects · Project Podcast

0:14
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
0:18
the project profession. My name is Emma Devita and I'm
0:21
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
0:25
in this podcast for exploring the world of systems thinking.
0:29
Ever been daunted about the term or what it might mean exactly?
0:33
Then we will enlighten you. Helping me explain everything
0:37
and how you can put system syncing into practise and what
0:40
advantages it gives you in your projects are the coauthors of
0:44
APM's new guide, Doing the Right Project Using Systems Thinking
0:48
to Select the Right Project, which you can buy on the APM
0:51
website to apm.org.uk. So joining me are Andrew Wright,
0:56
leader of the APM Systems Thinking Interest Network and
0:59
managing partner of Dynamic Technologies, Cesar Rendora,
1:04
head of engineering major programmes at Jacobs and Esther
1:07
Bennett, head of programme and PMO at Thalas UK.
1:11
Listen on for what systems thinking is, how it improves
1:14
project outcomes and how it can benefit you as a project
1:18
professional. So let's get to it.
1:21
So why don't we begin by each of you telling us a little bit
1:23
about your role and where your interest in systems thinking
1:27
comes from. Andrew, do you want to kick off?
1:31
Well, I'm a project consultant. I've been for a long time now.
1:34
I'm a mentor and for project managers, programme managers and
1:39
university teacher on occasion. My systems thinking stems from
1:45
my education of the life scientist, brain biochemistry,
1:51
moving on to working on AI and holistic thinking in Defence.
1:57
The The thing is that in life sciences and earth sciences as
2:03
well, you learn that everything is about interconnecting,
2:07
interacting systems. And it just meant that during
2:13
school and university, that's the way I started to think
2:15
anyway. OK.
2:17
Thank you. Esther, tell us a bit about your
2:20
current role and where you're interested in systems thinking
2:24
comes. From so my current role as head
2:27
of Programme and PMO at Telus UK, I'm involved in a lot of
2:32
complex systems that my interest in system thinking I guess
2:37
started with my career. One of the things that I did
2:41
earlier on was looking at whole system paradigms and, and that
2:46
sort of give give me an understanding.
2:48
I guess at the time we didn't call this system thinking, but
2:50
we just did it. Yeah, we're talking maybe a
2:54
couple of decades ago before this became a thing to as it is
2:58
today. But yeah, it was in the context
3:01
of looking at an entire system from a technical point of view
3:05
and understanding the social international interactions
3:09
within that. And that has sort of matured my
3:12
understanding into where we are today.
3:16
OK. Thank you.
3:16
And Cesar? Hi Emma, I work for Jacobs and I
3:21
lead the team of designers. The designs work for
3:26
infrastructure projects mostly in the UK but also in my past
3:31
career. I also work in overseas
3:35
countries and this led me to realise no project really is
3:40
quite unique is it requires an understanding of diverse things
3:45
in some most of them interrelated and it's really I'm
3:50
more into the delivery of projects as well as designing.
3:55
So I get involved in meeting with clients the the various
4:00
approving authorities. Sometimes I participate in
4:04
public consultation events for planning purposes and and that
4:11
led me to one thing to understand more of how to deal
4:16
with project complex projects and systems thinking got me into
4:24
system thinking. When I joined actually 8:00 PM
4:27
sometime like 2020 I think as a part of the member of the team
4:32
Systems Thinking special interest group, it was called
4:34
then with very little knowledge of what systems thinking is all
4:38
about, just word that I think, yeah, it must be something about
4:43
looking more, more better understanding of complex things
4:47
and sort of I joined and I'm still developing my
4:50
understanding on that. OK.
4:53
So you're all involved in that particular interest network,
4:56
can't you? So you've all worked together as
4:58
well on doing the right project, which is we'll pursue that as we
5:03
talk. But do you know, it might be
5:05
really interesting to give listeners an overview or a
5:08
definition of what system syncing is, because it sounds
5:11
like such a huge thing to get your head around.
5:15
And how on earth does it relate to project delivery, project
5:17
execution? So I wanted to do, I'd like to
5:20
join those dots today as we talk.
5:23
So who's going to be brave enough to try and give any brief
5:26
explanation of what systems thinking is and what it's
5:29
origins are? Andrew, would you like to take
5:33
on the challenge? Well, systems thinking is a bit
5:39
of, it's a bit of a misnomer. It's, it sounds very scientific,
5:43
but it's, it's about understanding that nothing is
5:46
just individual bits that, that don't interact with each other,
5:50
that that everything in life is built up of interacting systems
5:56
of activity. If you'll think about a car,
5:59
it's got all sorts of interacting bits systems in it,
6:03
in the brain. We've got all sorts of different
6:06
systems that cause allows us to, to walk in a straight line to,
6:11
to drink water and tap our heads at the same time.
6:14
Everything in there is is complicated sets of systems
6:19
interacting with each other. And one of the things we can see
6:24
from from behaviour and human behaviour is when those the way
6:28
those systems behave together can produce unpredictable
6:32
results. And I think they my my favourite
6:37
example of system multiple systems leading to loose screen
6:42
of death is of course, computer operating systems.
6:45
You know, you have to, you have to reboot them after a while
6:48
because they, they simply get their, get themselves knotted,
6:54
absolutely stuffed. So, so systems thinking is about
6:58
understanding that things are dynamic, that that there are
7:02
complicated sets of things interacting in different ways.
7:06
And the most complicated of all those are people.
7:11
And in terms of its origins as a discipline, it dates back into
7:15
the last century. And I'm sure ESTA can give a, a
7:18
better background on that than I can.
7:21
As I said, my, my interest comes at it from the fact that in life
7:26
sciences, you just see everything naturally as systems.
7:30
It's, it's not a it's, it's a natural way to understand things
7:33
from life science. So why don't you tell us a bit
7:38
more about the origins of how, I mean, how you first came across
7:41
it as well? Yeah, I guess I can.
7:44
I can probably respond from the origins in my, in my perspective
7:49
and how I sort of came across systems thinking as an approach
7:55
in the environment that I have been working on, which is
7:58
largely complex projects, you know, that sort of take quite a
8:04
long time and they're quite interactional in terms of the
8:10
technical aspects as well as the people aspect.
8:14
Problem solving and changes are quite dynamic.
8:17
And as Andrew has mentioned there, systems thinking is about
8:21
approaching a context of a system from a, a dynamic
8:25
approach. So my initial interactions with
8:29
this approach was in the light of problem solving, defining
8:34
requirements, understanding what the stakeholder is after and
8:37
this tools and methods and approaches that we took on at
8:40
the time to try and make sense of this dynamic complex
8:45
environment that was evolving quite rapidly.
8:48
But as I said earlier on, the approaches that we were using
8:52
was a system thinking approach, but we didn't call it that.
8:56
So the tools that we were using at the time, whether it's mind
8:59
mapping, whether it's casual loops, they they were helping to
9:04
understand the complexity that we were dealing with and still
9:07
are. But it's understanding the
9:09
overall system behaviour, the dynamics that human interaction
9:13
brings into that and the widest take hold environment as well
9:17
and how the two come together. So which tools and approaches we
9:21
need to use for different aspects is how I first started
9:25
my journey of on systems thinking.
9:28
And yeah, it's interesting because there isn't A1 size fits
9:32
all definition to this. But I guess maybe the keywords
9:36
that you will hear mentioned in any definition is about the
9:40
dynamism of of a complex system and the fact that it's evolving
9:45
quite rapidly. And you need to make sense of
9:47
that with multiple lenses and not just a technical view or a
9:52
humanistic view. OK, that's a lot to take in.
9:57
I think the question I'd like to ask is someone who's outside of
10:01
this is the intention then. It's not to increase the
10:06
complexity, it's to make sense of the complexity that exists
10:10
already. Absolutely 11.
10:15
OK. Susan, is there anything you'd
10:16
like to add to that? Yes, so for me systems thinking
10:21
is more related to us as an engineering consultant and is
10:26
looking at problems and and understanding how to solve that
10:29
problem. So, so first of all, we look at
10:35
because of my background at an issue more on the technical
10:39
aspect, how to provide the solution.
10:41
But as as you dig deeper, you realise that it's not just the
10:47
purely technical aspect. You need to consider how would a
10:50
certain project would impact a community, the environment and,
10:55
and in fact, in deserving that, that solution, you need to
10:59
ensure that the client actually is satisfied with the the
11:02
outcome and the the, the intended users of that, that
11:08
that what if that's a project, if it's a railway project or a
11:11
road project, and whether it would be beneficial.
11:15
So she, so that's how I look at systems thinking is sort of
11:18
understanding that whole process right from the beginning of
11:21
looking at the conception of a project with developing that
11:25
and, and providing that, delivering that solution all the
11:28
way and, and ensuring that there is it is a successful 1.
11:34
So I think I think the, you know, both Esther and, and
11:37
Andrew already defined it. So I think it's more the
11:41
holistic view and, and, and there's always this cause and
11:45
effect relationship in, in any, any consideration of a system
11:50
from project point of view, in particular, you know, you,
11:53
there's, there's a pull from the constraint of the project in
11:58
terms of financial costs. And then there's a need to also
12:02
to perhaps to consider the time aspect, deliver as quick as
12:05
possible and to, to equality and other considerations.
12:09
Nowadays, we also include sustainable solutions and and
12:13
and other matters. Yes.
12:16
So really it's about understanding the bigger picture
12:19
on how the project fits within that, I think, which sounds
12:23
entirely sensible to me, but it must be challenging the way that
12:26
project management might usually be done.
12:28
I mean, how does systems thinking relate to the
12:31
prevailing way of thinking about projects or how prevalent is
12:35
systems thinking across projects?
12:38
I don't know like who who would like to start answering that
12:41
one. I'm happy to take that.
12:44
I can, I can give us a start for it.
12:47
I guess in the context of project delivery, traditionally
12:52
the approaches that we have and the tools that we have that that
12:56
sort of set the project manager and his team or their team on
12:59
the path of delivery, they're quite linear in the approach.
13:03
You know you start from point A and you finish here and here's
13:06
your budget and these are the requirements very clinical in
13:10
the approach. But what system thinking does is
13:14
looking at that entity called the project, but in the
13:17
framework of the environment within which it's being
13:20
delivered or being requested by the customer.
13:24
And what are the underlying factors that are not covered
13:26
within that very clinical approach that, you know, the
13:29
said team have been given. So what, what systems thinking
13:34
does it disrupts all that? And, and it's, you know, Cesar
13:37
said, you start peeling the onion layers to understand what
13:40
does this customer really, really want that they haven't
13:42
told you? And, and within the
13:44
organisation, what is there to help us deliver that we're not
13:47
aware of? Yeah.
13:51
And it's interesting that you say clinical because is systems
13:54
thinking better equipped? Is it a better approach for the
13:57
kind of messy world that projects get done in?
14:00
Yeah, projects can be messy, I think as as textbooks.
14:04
So is it one of the benefits of taking a systems thinking
14:07
approach? I'll know we'll dive into that
14:08
later. But it sounds to me as though
14:11
it's very well matched with what life and business in the world
14:14
is like at the moment, constantly changing, nothing's
14:17
for certain. Is that one of these appealing
14:20
aspects of it, Esther? Very much so.
14:25
It's understanding that projects are never delivered in a
14:27
statics, you know, a static mode there.
14:30
There will be change, there will be issues, there will be
14:34
problems, but it's always bearing in mind that we have to
14:38
deliver as a project community, we have to deliver to the
14:42
customer's requirements. If the customer needs or has
14:45
expressed a desire to have an infrastructure built, it's
14:48
understanding how best to to understand the needs and deliver
14:52
to the customer's point. OK.
14:56
Thank you, Cesar. Anything you'd like to add?
14:59
For me, it's again relating to projects.
15:03
It's important that everyone in the project shares the same
15:08
understanding of what, what the goal is.
15:11
And and that's from not just from the client and the
15:14
stakeholder, but also the project team and and systems
15:18
thinking allows you, gives you that tool to that.
15:21
I should be enabled to do that because in my limited knowledge
15:27
of systems thinking so far, you actually create some sort of a
15:32
graphical representation. A model of what?
15:36
What? When I say you, I mean the team
15:39
collectively produced a graphical representation of the
15:44
understanding of how the system performs or acts in a project
15:52
environment. For example, you know, what's in
15:55
a project, There's how, what, what other, whether the, the,
15:58
the, the, the stakeholders, the, the, the, the community that
16:02
will be impacted, the, the, the client side or the, the people
16:07
that needs to provide approval as well as the potential users
16:11
later on. So it's really basically trying
16:13
to create that understands that right from the beginning of the
16:16
project, you try and ensure that you and your client had the same
16:21
understanding and you communicate the same
16:23
understanding to your team and, and how the, the various factors
16:27
that relate will later on, will, will could have an impact or
16:32
influence how the project progresses are interrelated.
16:37
So creating that understanding I think is key and systems
16:41
thinking provided too, because it it is essentially, as I said,
16:45
a, a, a graphical way of representing, representing a
16:50
collective understanding of situation.
16:53
OK, well that's really useful because it sounds to me though,
16:57
it's a great way to achieve clarity.
16:59
I mean, what is the problem you're trying to solve, how
17:02
you're going to go about doing it?
17:03
What are the impact, what the impacts might be?
17:06
Well, I'd like to ask you what benefits system syncing brings.
17:10
You've already touched on that, but I just wondered, I mean, do
17:13
you feel that system syncing is growing in importance right now
17:17
and that project professionals need to take more of an interest
17:19
in it? I know it's in the APM Body of
17:21
Knowledge, AIDS Edition, so it's definitely recognised as being
17:24
something very important for project professionals to know
17:26
about, but do you think it's of particular value right now in
17:30
terms of the projects and programmes that are being
17:32
conducted? Yeah, absolutely.
17:35
It's and the reason is because the world is getting a lot more
17:39
complicated and and that's making things more complex.
17:43
And the result of this is that more and more projects, despite
17:47
the best efforts of of APM and professional bodies and
17:52
education, more and more projects are running into
17:58
unplanned unforecast adverse events.
18:02
So systems thinking really helps that foresight, you know, left
18:10
shifting or front end loading to do the analysis upfront that
18:14
that that actually gives the clarity that you talk about as
18:17
to what could go wrong, what what could go right, what are
18:22
the opportunities and particularly in thoroughly
18:26
understanding the problem you're trying to solve before you jump
18:29
to a solution. So thank you.
18:33
I guess what I'm dying to find out more about is how you
18:35
actually use system syncing and at what point.
18:38
I know the subtitle for doing the right projects is is using a
18:41
system syncing approach to select successful projects.
18:45
So imagine you start using system syncing before the
18:48
project comes into being. So it'd be useful for each of
18:52
you to give you an idea of how you put this into practise.
18:56
What is it exactly? And I know we can't go through
18:58
all the tools and techniques that are in the guide, but if
19:01
you perhaps people kind of unfamiliar with this, how do you
19:04
actually put this into practise? So Caesar, you sound like you're
19:08
quite new to this world, so you're probably closest to
19:11
grappling of what it is and how you put it into practise.
19:14
So are you happy to show what works?
19:16
Sure. OK.
19:17
So again I'm grounding it basis of the work I do as a consulting
19:22
engineer. And and so when we look at
19:26
projects, we first of all we, we look, we, we consult with the
19:33
client, we discuss with the client what are their goals and
19:37
it's always about lead towards the intended benefit of the
19:41
project. So you, you start the beginning,
19:42
what does the client want? But also you're looking ahead
19:46
and saying it's OK, What, what do you really want to achieve?
19:49
What is the intended benefit? And, and, and that requires
19:53
that's, that's understanding what we call stakeholders, the,
19:59
the, the community, the people, the use of the will be affected
20:05
by, by this project eventually. And, and, and that's that's
20:09
where a system's thinking, I feel in my practise.
20:13
Is very useful. First is understanding who those
20:18
stakeholders are not just a client, the users, but also the
20:24
various, the various entities that would be involved from
20:27
approval from who will deliver the work as well as the, the
20:31
people that living in the community that will will be
20:36
affected during construction that also will benefit when the
20:39
construction is finished. Each of those I call
20:42
stakeholders will have certain needs and wants and some of them
20:46
will have certain more more influence and power in terms of
20:49
how the project could be, could be successful.
20:53
I've been involved in a lot of public consultation relating to
20:58
planning in of major projects in the UK.
21:01
We call it development consent order.
21:02
The the formal process and that that led me to appreciate the
21:09
wide view of of of various committees that need to be
21:16
consulted as well as the need to be taken into account.
21:20
The views of which could eventually put the grant project
21:25
into a halt, but also encourage others to be more supportive and
21:30
and and and and and and encourage the the project should
21:33
go ahead as soon as possible. So for me, a system thinking in,
21:39
in practise is about understanding that link between
21:43
what the proponents of project, the clients want to achieve as a
21:48
eventual outcome and the benefit to the users.
21:51
And, and, and, and me as a, as a consulting engineer trying to
21:56
help that make sure that that becomes happens as a success.
22:00
But by using system thinking, for example, to understand
22:05
stakeholders, the various stakeholders that will be
22:07
affected and make sure that we we engage with them and we and,
22:12
and collaborate with them throughout the the stages of the
22:15
project from the beginning right away to the end.
22:19
So what? How do you do that in practise?
22:21
Is there a particular tool you use to help achieve?
22:24
This if you could. Just give one example. 11 aspect
22:29
would be to use in in in project management, the people who are
22:34
familiar with stakeholder mapping in systems thinking.
22:37
We have a tool that is actually a subject about either webinar
22:43
and I've already presented in some of the ATM webinars called
22:47
the Critical Systems Heuristics tool.
22:50
It's basically asking several questions and this particular 2
22:55
questions, typical 12 questions of what is the objective?
22:59
Who is the intended benefit of this this project?
23:03
Who is in control of the conditions that would enable
23:05
this project success? Who who carries the knowledge or
23:09
expertise to make this happen? Who will be impacted?
23:13
So you, you go through those various questions as part of the
23:17
process, one as a having understanding of the, what the
23:23
client wants and also as a project team in order to provide
23:28
the solution that will address those questions and the
23:30
responses to those questions. And that's how basically how we
23:35
did. So my, my role is basically to
23:37
provide solution to an infrastructure problem, but I
23:41
can't just provide a technical solution.
23:43
That's, that's, I feel that can be built.
23:47
But also you need to address the, the, the views of various
23:50
stakeholders. So ask various questions and
23:53
those questions are generated by the, the team I'm involved in
23:58
who are subject matter experts in their own right.
24:02
Because a single person and a very, even a very experienced
24:06
project manager doesn't know everything.
24:08
So it, it encourages a more collaborative approach, engaging
24:12
everyone within the team and, and, and sometimes also
24:16
including the client representative to, to
24:18
understand, do we really understand the, the objective
24:22
and, and the potential impact and, and the benefits and, and,
24:26
and then come up with a solution that addresses those as much as
24:31
possible. Sometimes it cannot be really
24:35
satisfy everybody. It's not, it's not possible, but
24:38
you try to maximise the benefits as much as you can.
24:44
What's impressing me about what you're saying is it's very much
24:46
about the people's side of things.
24:48
It's speaking to people, it's collaborative, it's finding out
24:51
what people want, what potential problems could be.
24:56
Is this different to how you would approach your
24:59
infrastructure projects without using system syncing?
25:01
Or the systems syncing accentuate with how the best way
25:05
to work out all these different pieces and how they might fit
25:09
together. Systems thinking for me, it
25:12
provides that framework and various tools.
25:15
So there's no one tool that's applicable to everything.
25:18
So system thinking enables you, gives you that that framework
25:23
various tools that's available course of loop diagrams is one
25:26
of them. But also also the recognition
25:31
that I mean for me as a project professional, that I, I don't
25:36
carry all the knowledge and and does don't have all the answers.
25:41
I need to gather a group of individuals within my team and
25:46
specialties if necessary from the client side in order to have
25:50
a a holistic view of of the problem first of all and then
25:55
the the potential solution or options and how those potential
26:00
solution could could impact could have a potential impact as
26:03
well. Sounds great.
26:06
It sounds like it's helping you to do a better job.
26:10
Is it hard to start going down the systems thinking route if
26:13
you haven't really dipped your toe in it before or, or is it
26:17
very much a case of you experiment a little bit with
26:20
something before you know you realise that it's really
26:22
valuable as. I said, I, I started the system
26:26
thinking completely green with, with no, it's just basic
26:31
knowledge that maybe this, this will help me look at things
26:35
holistically and, and what we did then.
26:38
And Andrew will remember it was during COVID time, the pandemic.
26:44
And, and you know, we don't know what pandemic COVID-19 would
26:52
mean to the UK and the whole world.
26:54
And the team actually decided to use systems thinking, in
26:58
particular the, the, the tool we called causal loop diagram to
27:02
understand what could be the potential impact of a COVID-19
27:08
to the UK and, and what are the factors that actually
27:13
influencing it's potential cure or, or perhaps how long it would
27:21
last. And one of the things I
27:24
remembered vividly is that, you know, we actually came up with
27:27
a, a very big diagram, but with cause and effect relationship.
27:31
But certainly one of the topic that was highlighted was about
27:34
remote working, which is now the, the, the main thing that
27:37
we, we, we, we're still doing now.
27:40
So from very little, no understanding of systems
27:44
thinking to being introduced to a technique called causa dub
27:48
diagram, I was able to contribute hope meaningful
27:52
meaningfully to the discussions and, and, and, and also enabled
27:56
me to have a better appreciation what COVID-19 could mean to the
28:03
UKUK and, and, and the, the United Kingdom as well as the
28:09
whole world. So it, it just gives you that,
28:11
that bigger perspective that for me, perhaps it would have taken
28:15
me years and years to understand to and, but bringing the, the,
28:20
the, the knowledge of the whole group helped me to do that.
28:23
I'll pass it over now to Esther and Andy.
28:26
Well, thank you. It's really useful to listen to
28:28
your experience. Esther, tell me a bit about how
28:33
you've put systems sinking into practise and the kind of
28:35
benefits it gives you. Yeah, I think for me, I can
28:42
answer that into into sort of phrases.
28:46
One in my current job, systems thinking comes alive at the very
28:53
inception of a project. And some of the tools we use
28:57
are, you know, just traditional mind mapping or you know, rich
29:00
diagrams with the team. As Cesar said, it's getting the
29:05
team engaged. But what I have found quite
29:07
powerful is bringing in some independent members of the
29:13
organisation that are not directly involved in the team
29:16
delivery because they get to see the blind spots, things that
29:19
people haven't thought about. So that that's again, the
29:22
powerful element of systems thinking approach where you're
29:26
looking at the entire system saying, oh, have we thought
29:28
about, you know, somebody if, if, if we're doing an
29:31
engineering, which most of the projects are, but you know,
29:34
bring somebody who's an administrator, for example, and
29:37
just let them come in and for half an hour have the
29:39
discussions with them and then see what else can they bring
29:42
into the discussions. So this happens right at the
29:46
inception before we start even putting schedules together,
29:51
before we start decomposing the requirements.
29:53
Do we understand the problem? Are we all clear with what the
29:57
output is likely to be? Is there anything that has been
30:00
missed out? So really just laying it all on
30:03
the table and looking at the project as an ecosystem with a
30:08
view of delivering a benefit not just to the immediate customer,
30:13
but to the business and to the wide environment.
30:15
It's about getting the right project defined upfront and
30:20
having checkpoints in delivery in the delivery life cycle and
30:25
delivery doesn't end when we have finished all the
30:27
deliverables. That includes decommissioning
30:30
and post delivery support. So making sure, again when I
30:34
talk about the project ecosystem, we have absolutely
30:38
delivered what was expected by the customer and internally the
30:42
benefits have been realised for the business as well.
30:46
Yeah, it's making me think about the people's side of projects
30:48
and in particular the way you lead projects if you're wanting
30:52
to go and take this approach. Because it sounds as though you
30:55
want every stakeholder to be able to have their say and and
31:00
everyone trying to uncover potential challenges,
31:03
uncertainties and risks that are involved.
31:06
But for that to happen, you need a particular project culture,
31:09
one where people feel as though they can raise difficulties,
31:13
that kind of that whole idea of psychological safety and
31:16
communication. So Esther, what's your advice?
31:19
Am I right in thinking that that it does, it makes you a certain
31:23
type of leader if you want to use systems thinking effectively
31:27
and, and what might that be? What kind of leader are you and
31:31
what kind of culture do you aim to create on a project team?
31:35
To to your point, Emma, that the the people aspect in terms of
31:38
project delivery systems thinking does challenge some
31:42
mindset and behaviours and cultures and organisations.
31:45
It's tending towards an open culture to absolutely get to the
31:49
root cause and define what the right project is.
31:54
How do you do that in real life? Because that's easier said than
31:57
done. Absolutely, absolutely.
32:00
So one of the things that we encourage where I am and the
32:04
work I'm doing at uni as well is, is looking at projects as an
32:09
entity and ensuring that we have the right leadership there with
32:14
psychological safety at the paramount, at the forefront of
32:17
everything. So noting that teams, can this
32:21
have those difficult discussions because that's integral to
32:24
delivering the project itself. How do you achieve that?
32:28
Is it by role modelling it yourself?
32:31
Absolutely. For myself, it's been vulnerable
32:35
noting, as Cesar said, you know, the project manager, the project
32:38
specialist doesn't know everything and allowing others
32:42
to fill in the gaps because that is quite key to getting that
32:46
full picture. Caesar, is there anything else
32:51
you'd like to add around the leadership side of projects when
32:54
it comes to systems thinking and the kind of project culture you
32:57
need to cultivate in order to make the most of it?
33:01
Yes. So at work, what we encourage is
33:07
project leaders, project managers to be more
33:10
collaborative with our team, making sure that we engage
33:17
everybody and listen to ideas as well as concerns to to make this
33:25
happen. Of course, we need to make sure
33:28
that there's no blame culture in, in the project and and that
33:33
everyone is, is, is allowed to express their views and, and,
33:40
and be open to, and leaders and managers, be open to
33:45
suggestions. We, we, it, it comes from, you
33:51
know, it's, it's, you can mandate it.
33:54
But in our, in our case, it, we actually just encourage to as
33:59
leaders to, to, to be the, the example ourselves.
34:03
We use the term leadership, leadership shadow.
34:06
Well, whatever you say or do is what you practise.
34:09
And so you, you try to be more open to your team in terms of
34:18
how the, the, the, the, the, the project is being viewed by the
34:22
client and any other issues that are actually sometimes kept by
34:27
the management level. But the the members, the the
34:31
members of the team are also allowed to to know and not just
34:37
on the commercial aspects, but also in terms of potential
34:43
concerns has been expressed by the client in terms of how the
34:46
team has been performing. Thank you, Cesar.
34:51
Something that's a focus for project managers at the moment
34:54
is the idea of, well, AI and humans and how we work together.
34:58
And there's a lot of talk about human skills and AI skills.
35:01
And Andrew, actually it's something I probably want to put
35:04
to you is how does systems thinking affect that?
35:08
So is it a great, is it a great way of using AI and what's out
35:12
there to inform what's really going on in a project, but also
35:14
maximising the kind of human contribution?
35:17
I'm talking very general terms, but it's just the way that
35:20
people seem to be framing things.
35:22
It's, it's this idea that AI brings a set of skills and human
35:26
beings another set and we need to work alongside each other.
35:30
Just wonder what your take is? AI is, is not intelligence.
35:36
What what we have in our heads is real intelligence.
35:39
And so I, I see AI as being orthogonal to systems thinking.
35:44
Systems thinking is about what goes on inside our heads in
35:48
terms of understanding. And AI is, is, is a
35:53
productivity, productivity aid. It's, it's a, it's a power tool.
35:57
So if we are less busy fools by using AI, we have more time to
36:05
think and be intelligent. And this is a really important
36:09
thing. And so systems thinking is a set
36:12
of tools and techniques and a mindset that allows us to think
36:16
better given that we've got more time resulting from the the time
36:22
saving of using AI to to do a better job quicker.
36:28
OK, well, I'll move on. Tasking is and we kind of
36:32
touched it already, but Cesar, Esther, have you or both of you
36:37
got any advice on how to start using system syncing in
36:41
projects? If it's something you haven't
36:43
used before, is it something you can start off with small
36:46
experiments, start lightly and then it expands or do you dive
36:50
into it straight away and run with it?
36:52
Esther, what's your advice? Right.
36:55
So for systems thinking in terms of adopting that in a project
36:59
delivery context, I'd say to anybody you can start where you
37:03
are even as simple as your normal standard meetings or any
37:08
major design review or a major project review and the simplest
37:12
way of doing it, I'd say it's just challenging the status quo.
37:17
Here's a schedule telling me we'll deliver in three weeks
37:20
time. Let's just understand what that
37:22
means. Has is everyone brought into
37:24
that deliverable? Have we understood the context
37:27
and what the output will look like?
37:30
But if somebody was speaking this project from the start, I'd
37:35
say understand the requirements before you start putting a
37:38
schedule together, before you take those requirements and
37:41
deploy them on doors. Really capture the requirements
37:44
in the setting. Brainstorm them to make sure
37:47
everybody understands what we're delivering before you start into
37:52
delivery. Andrew, is there any advice
37:54
you'd give about starting out with system syncing?
37:58
It's difficult for me because I, I should say my, my educational
38:02
background makes, makes me think in terms of systems anyway.
38:05
But the, the simple, simple thing I would say to people is
38:11
by the guide, by the guide we've just issued, just published.
38:16
And it's, it's, it's in three parts.
38:20
Part A is meant to be read, read through and it's, it's quite
38:24
short, quite easy to read and it tells you about what, what
38:27
systems thinking is and why you should be interested in it as a
38:31
project manager. Part B is, is, is a reference
38:35
section written down by topics, topics that you can just dip
38:41
into. So when you're thinking about
38:43
that topic, you can read a few practical guides, suggested
38:47
tools to to apply, and then part C, that is, it's a compendium of
38:53
tools and techniques and references and where to find out
38:56
more information. So we've got 20, at least 20
39:00
different tools and techniques in that, in that part C.
39:05
So that that's honestly, that's very simple advice how to get
39:11
into systems thinking by the guide.
39:15
What was the hardest thing, Cesar?
39:17
Because you put these into practise not that long ago and I
39:21
wondered what would be the the hardest thing.
39:24
Some unexpectedly hard. For me, I think it's it's just
39:28
the initial perception of trying to get it started.
39:31
You know, systems thinking can be confused of different things.
39:34
You know, some in my earlier thinking, I thought it was
39:38
similar to systems engineering, the the more, more looking into
39:42
how the technical aspects of a project is verified and
39:46
validated, but actually it's actually a much broader than
39:49
that. So I think as you get deeper
39:52
into your understanding of what systems thinking is, you really
39:56
realise, you get, get realise how how how beneficial it is
40:00
from the wider function of a project manager.
40:03
I really. Encourage colleagues to to get
40:08
started and and start to apply it.
40:11
I myself still learning on on the subject, but I find it very
40:16
beneficial indeed. Can I Perhaps a good way to wrap
40:20
up would be to ask each of you for the one key take away you'd
40:23
like listeners to go away with to think about redaction to take
40:26
apart from buying a copy the guide obviously.
40:29
Andrew, would you like to start? The takeaway is that you will be
40:34
more successful as a project manager in in delivering
40:39
customer satisfaction if you think systemically, because you
40:43
will understand the problem to be solved better.
40:46
You will understand better how the solution is going to meet
40:49
that problem, and you will forecast and foresee unexpected
40:55
nasties that would rob you of success early enough to do
40:59
something about it. And who wouldn't want that?
41:02
That's fantastic. OK.
41:03
Esther, what would your key takeaway be?
41:07
I guess for me it's knowing that system thinking in a project
41:11
delivery context is not just about tools and approaches and
41:15
methodologies, it's changing behaviours and mindsets and you
41:21
know, being being willing to take in more risk in the
41:25
uncertainty that is within a complex project environment.
41:31
And Caesar, what would be your closing thought?
41:34
Systems thinking is increasingly becoming a recognised essential
41:40
skills for all project professionals in in fact, the
41:44
World Economic Forum 2025 recognised systems thinking of
41:48
one of the core skills that companies in the 2030 should be
41:53
trying to have for for their employees.
41:57
So that's already recognised in the various the institutions
42:00
that I belong to, the institution of civil engineers
42:03
recognise that as well for practising engineers.
42:06
And so, you know, encourage you to get to know more about it.
42:12
Join us at the Interest Systems Thinking Interest Network in APM
42:18
if you want to know more, because I think it it will.
42:22
I am convinced that we will help you deliver projects
42:25
successfully. OK, well, listen, that just
42:29
leads me to thank each of you for your time and your very
42:32
valuable advice and thoughts around system syncing.
42:35
And I do urge everyone listening to go and buy a guide today.
42:38
So thank you very much for your time.
42:40
Thanks again. Thank you.
42:43
Thank you, Emma. Hey, Emma.
42:46
Thanks again to Andrew Susan Esther for joining us and to you
42:49
for listening to the APM Podcast.
42:52
If you'd like to buy a copy of the new guide, Doing the Right
42:54
Project Using System Syncing, to select the right project, please
42:58
go to theonlineapmbookshop@apm.org.uk/book
43:03
Hyphen Shop. And don't forget to look out for
43:07
more episodes or to rating reviewers.
43:09
Wherever you get your podcasts, we'd welcome you to get in touch
43:12
with your comments, feedback and suggestions by emailing us at
43:15
apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk. And Spotify users, please do
43:22
also leave us your comments. This podcast has been brought to
43:25
you by APM, the chartered body for the roject Rofession.
43:29
For more information on APM, visit apmorg.uk.