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Off Record: The Promise of a Cure · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Knife Off Record. I'm Hannah Smith.
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Speaker 2: I'm Patia Eaton, and today, Hannah, I have a story
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Speaker 2: for you.
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Speaker 3: I can't wait to hear it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's actually a story that we had talked about
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Speaker 2: briefly a couple of months ago, but I couldn't find
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Speaker 2: you know, I made a bunch of phone calls and
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Speaker 2: didn't find the right person to speak with about it,
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Speaker 2: but wanted to tell you what I found out.
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Speaker 3: Okay, great.
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Speaker 2: So it's July of two thousand and eight, and we're
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Speaker 2: in North Little Rock, Arkansas. It's characteristically hot and muggy
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Speaker 2: outside and accompanied by her husband and a woman named Cindy.
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Speaker 2: Butbecca walks into Lay's med Ink.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
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Speaker 2: Cindy is there for cancer treatment. Cindy has breast cancer
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Speaker 2: and she's traveled all the way from her home in
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Speaker 2: Powder Springs, Georgia to North Little Rock for an appointment
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Speaker 2: with doctor Antonella Carpenter. Okay, and doctor Antonela Carpenter has
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Speaker 2: promised to cure Cindy's cancer. So, yeah, when I hear
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Speaker 2: someone's traveling across state lines, like my mind first goes
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Speaker 2: to to see a specialist or someone who is, you know,
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Speaker 2: particularly good at treating your type of cancer. Is that
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Speaker 2: the situation? It is the situation that doctor Antonola Carpenter
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Speaker 2: has promised to cure her cancer. But no, she is
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Speaker 2: not a specialist and she is not a medical doctor.
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Speaker 2: She's going by doctor, She's going by a doctor. So
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Speaker 2: doctor Antonola Carpenter, as she calls herself, she promises to
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Speaker 2: cure cancer without chemotherapy, without radiation, and without surgery.
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Speaker 1: And when you say promises, is she actually like promising?
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Speaker 3: She is guaranteeing it.
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Speaker 2: And her sort of pitch with this treatment that I'll
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Speaker 2: get into is that she is going to kill the
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Speaker 2: tumor and thus cure the cancer. And of course, because
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Speaker 2: she's not a medical doctor, she can't perform chemotherapy, she
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Speaker 2: can't perform radiation, and she certainly can't perform surgery. So
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Speaker 2: Cindy arrives for cancer treatment, and over the course of
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Speaker 2: a year, Cindy goes to several appointments with Carpenter for
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Speaker 2: Carpenter's leash therapy. This stands for light induced enhanced selective hyperthermia.
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Speaker 2: Carpenter claims that she can inject a DIE into the
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Speaker 2: site of the tumor. So if it's in your breast,
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Speaker 2: if it's breast cancer, she will inject you with this
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Speaker 2: DIE that's a combination of food coloring and something else.
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Speaker 3: It's homemade, Okay.
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Speaker 2: She injects it into this area where the tumor is growing,
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Speaker 2: and then she shoots the tumor by looking at the
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Speaker 2: dye to see where the tumor is with a homemade laser.
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Speaker 3: What color is this dye? I think it's green?
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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, So she has a syringe full of green
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Speaker 1: liquid and she's just injecting it into people's bodies, right,
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Speaker 1: And it's not painless, it's very painful. And so the
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Speaker 1: idea is that this laser is so hot that it's
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Speaker 1: going to get in there and it's going to target
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Speaker 1: the tumor because she can see exactly where to point it,
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Speaker 1: and the tumor will then be killed off. And the
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Speaker 1: whole sort of underlying reason for her getting cancer patients
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Speaker 1: to come to her for this unconventional treatment is that
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Speaker 1: it is almost no side effects compared to chemotherapy, radiation,
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Speaker 1: or surgery, Like this is so easy compared to that,
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Speaker 1: And the cancer medical industry doesn't want you to know
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Speaker 1: that this exists, okay, because there's so much more money
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Speaker 1: to be made by these extensive chemotherapy and radiation treatments.
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Speaker 1: So what are the side effects? Does it burn your skin?
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Speaker 2: It's swelling and it can feel a burning sensation, and
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Speaker 2: she recommends ibuprofen. Okay, so it's a painful process, but
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Speaker 2: less so than chemotherapy or radiation.
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Speaker 1: How much does she charge for a treatment?
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Speaker 2: Thousands of dollars? So Cindy paid about ten thousand dollars
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Speaker 2: in total. Yeah, and this was back in two thousand
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Speaker 2: and eight. So Cindy's really hopeful, and she has a
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Speaker 2: lot of confidence in Carpenter, so much so that she
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Speaker 2: is persuaded by Carpenter to avoid medical doctors and conventional treatments.
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Speaker 1: I don't know if we know anything about Cindy, but
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Speaker 1: I'm just curious. You know, why Cindy chose to go
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Speaker 1: with this doctor as opposed to getting the traditional chemotherapy treatment.
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Speaker 3: Great question.
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Speaker 2: So there's not too much about Cindy's specifically and by
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Speaker 2: the way, a lot of my research was pulled from
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Speaker 2: court documents that we'll get into later, but most of
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Speaker 2: doctor Air quotes Carpenter's patients were people who had seen
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Speaker 2: others go through chemotherapy, go through radiation and thought, I
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Speaker 2: don't want to do that to my body. There has
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Speaker 2: to be another way, and so they're seeking out an
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Speaker 2: alternative treatment that will not wreck them the way that
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Speaker 2: chemotherapy is just really hard on a person's body. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
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Speaker 2: which is absolutely true. Yeah, but it's obviously also a tested,
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Speaker 2: studied method of killing cancer, Yes.
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Speaker 1: With a lot of statistics about survival rates, etc.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so Cindy goes to this clinic in Arkansas
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Speaker 2: several times over the course of a year, and sure enough,
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Speaker 2: Antoninla Carpenter tells Cindy her body is responding to the treatment.
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Speaker 2: The tumor, though, is breaking through Cindy's skin. That is
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Speaker 2: extremely painful, as you might imagine. But on the upside,
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Speaker 2: Carpenter's explanation for this is that the body is expelling
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Speaker 2: the tumor because now the tumor has died, and so
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Speaker 2: Cindy's body is just pushing it right out.
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Speaker 3: And this is just the process.
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Speaker 1: And you have to imagine, well, I don't know, but
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Speaker 1: I would guess what's really going on is that this
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Speaker 1: tumor is growing.
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Speaker 3: It's growing.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, But Cindy at this point is still believing Carpenter.
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Speaker 2: So this is about a year from her first treatment, okay,
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Speaker 2: And I'm not sure of the exact timeline of what
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Speaker 2: happens next for Cindy, but she does return to Georgia
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Speaker 2: and eventually go see a radiologist, and that radiologist, doctor
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Speaker 2: Christine Murphy, encourages Cindy to have her tumor biopsy.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Christine Murphy is the radiologist.
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Speaker 2: She's a radiologist, actual doctor, a real doctor, Okay, and
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Speaker 2: Cindy is very hesitant. You know, her trust in this
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Speaker 2: doctor is almost none. And based on what was available
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Speaker 2: in articles and court documents, it seems like Antonina Carpenter
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Speaker 2: really hammered hard this idea of do not go see
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Speaker 2: medical doctors. They just want your money, they don't care.
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Speaker 2: You're just going to suffer. They're not going to carry
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Speaker 2: your cancer. I'm going to carry your cancer.
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Speaker 1: There's so much truth that our medical system is unbelievably
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Speaker 1: broken and expensive, and there's a lot of distrust in
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Speaker 1: it that people have for sometimes for good reason, maybe
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Speaker 1: not because of the medical care, but because of the
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Speaker 1: insurance companies and how expensive it is. And you get
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Speaker 1: these bills that show up that are unexplainable. And so
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Speaker 1: you can see how someone could take these things that
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Speaker 1: are very real complaints and use them to say, well,
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Speaker 1: it's all bad. Don't trust any doctors, just trust me.
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Speaker 2: Right, because that is the experience so many people have
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Speaker 2: when they go to the doctors, that they feel rushed,
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Speaker 2: they don't feel listened to, they don't feel like this
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Speaker 2: unique case, they feel like they're given this blanket treatment.
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Speaker 2: These are all things that we hear from all manner
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Speaker 2: of people, and doctor Carpenter, from multiple patients, we hear
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Speaker 2: that she took the time, she sat in front of them,
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Speaker 2: she listened to their concerns, She spoke at length with
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Speaker 2: them about their cancer diagnosis, and she reassured.
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Speaker 1: Them that it would be okay, which is probably so powerful.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 2: And Cindy was a mother, you know, she had children
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Speaker 2: that she wanted to live for.
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Speaker 3: I just think, wouldn't you be afraid of death? Yeah?
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Speaker 2: I have watched someone that I was closed to go
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Speaker 2: through chemotherapy and radiation. And I will say when I
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Speaker 2: was younger, they were close in eache to me, so
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Speaker 2: you know, it was very sad you watch a young
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Speaker 2: person go from healthy to not yah and then pass away.
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Speaker 2: But you know the treatment is gnarly. Yes, it can
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Speaker 2: be gnarly, oh for sure, vomiting, weight loss, hair loss,
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Speaker 2: I mean skin going to like basically colorless. Yeah, And
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Speaker 2: I can understand being fearful of that. How could that
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Speaker 2: be helping me?
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Speaker 3: Totally?
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Speaker 2: But I have to imagine what's going on here is
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Speaker 2: that these people are getting a diagnosis from a doctor
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Speaker 2: who can diagnose cancer, and then they're hearing about the
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Speaker 2: side effects of this treatment and saying wait a minute, no, no, no,
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Speaker 2: no no. And this doctor is saying, I can give
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Speaker 2: you this much of a chance of survival, whereas.
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Speaker 1: Doctor or carpenter she can cure it. Yeah, not a doctor,
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Speaker 1: not a doctor, not a carpenter either, right, not a
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Speaker 1: lady with some green dye, yep.
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Speaker 2: And so Cindy does not ever go back to doctor
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Speaker 2: Christine Murphy, the radiologist who recommends the biopsy, but she
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Speaker 2: does eventually begin chemotherapy treatment.
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Speaker 1: She does, okay, but it's too late.
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Speaker 2: Her cancer has progressed beyond the point of chemo being
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Speaker 2: able to save her and loving mother and wife Cindy,
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Speaker 2: but Beecca passed away on May eleventh.
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Speaker 3: Twenty t Wow.
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Speaker 2: So a little bit about Antonela Carpenter. She has this
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Speaker 2: fiery bright red hair, vibrant makeup, usually wearing colorful clothing,
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Speaker 2: a super eccentric and passionate seeming person.
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Speaker 3: Okay.
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Speaker 2: She was born August twenty ninth in nineteen forty four
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Speaker 2: in Italy. She was raised in Milan, graduated from high school,
10:22
Speaker 2: attended the University of Milan, and she came to the
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Speaker 2: US after marrying her husband, James Berry, who was in
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Speaker 2: Vietnam and June of nineteen sixty eight. Okay, he was
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Speaker 2: there with the US Army. Yeah, so Antonela became a
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Speaker 2: US citizen shortly after that. She then attended Cameron University
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Speaker 2: in Oklahoma from nineteen seventy six to nineteen seventy seven.
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Speaker 2: So it says that she received This is from her obituary,
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Speaker 2: by the way.
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Speaker 1: Eighteen seventy sixth to nineteen seventy six, so one year,
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Speaker 1: one year, okay.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, But it says online that she received a Bachelor
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Speaker 2: of Science in Physics in nineteen ninety seven. Okay, Now
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Speaker 2: this is why she refers to herself as a doctor
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Speaker 2: because she got a bachelor's degree in physics. In physics,
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Speaker 2: so she says, well, she goes on to then say
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Speaker 2: she has a master's of science in state physics from
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Speaker 2: Oklahoma State.
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Speaker 1: And does she we don't know, we don't know. That's
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Speaker 1: not in her obituary. That's in her obituary.
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Speaker 3: Oh okay it is. Yeah, So but still not a doctor.
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Speaker 3: Not a doctor, but you're not a doctor for you
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Speaker 3: to master's right?
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Speaker 2: And I will say that Antonella Carpenter with Cindy and
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Speaker 2: with the other patients that we're going to be talking about,
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Speaker 2: she tells them, I'm a physicist. I'm not a doctor.
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Speaker 2: I'm a physicist. Interesting, but okay, you can trust me
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Speaker 2: because I'm not a doctor who's out there to just
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Speaker 2: like scam you for insurance money. So Cindy Bobeca's death
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Speaker 2: doesn't deter Carpenter. It's not like Carpenter gets a call
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Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, maybe my treatment doesn't care cancer.
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Speaker 1: She just continues, are there people that claim that this
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Speaker 1: has saved them? Yes?
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Speaker 2: Okay, and that will come out in a trial that
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Speaker 2: happens later. Okay, but Cindy Baba Becca's death does not
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Speaker 2: deter a Carpenter from continuing to tell those who arrive
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Speaker 2: for treatment that she can cure their cancer with her
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Speaker 2: homemade laser. And importantly, she, as I mentioned, does tell
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Speaker 2: them that she's not a medical doctor, she's a physicist.
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that she communicates with them that that
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Speaker 2: also means she doesn't have a medical license. And if
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Speaker 2: you remember, her clinic is called Lay's med Ink, so
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Speaker 2: it's very confusing. Yeah, like men must stand for medicine
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Speaker 2: medical and so people are still coming to see her
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Speaker 2: from all over the country. And one of those people
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Speaker 2: is Teres Westfall, who traveled all the way from Tarzana, California,
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Speaker 2: so just north of Los Angeles in September of two
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Speaker 2: thousand and seven, a year before Cindy Butbecca ever set
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Speaker 2: foot in Carpenter's clinic. Teres Westfall was fifty years old
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Speaker 2: and facing down her own breast cancer diagnosis. At the time,
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Speaker 2: Lay's med Ink was also in Jacksonville, Florida, so Teres
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Speaker 2: finds the clinic through a handwritten note that she finds
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Speaker 2: on a bolton at a health food store Wow. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: she's found out that she has breast cancer. She's at
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Speaker 2: a health food store. I'm not necessarily assuming she's going
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Speaker 2: to cure cancer with like alternative methods just because she's
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Speaker 2: at a health food store, but she is clearly someone
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Speaker 2: who is thinking about her health maybe holistically.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And so she calls the number on this pamphlet or
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Speaker 2: note at the store and they direct her to Antonella
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Speaker 2: Carpenter's website. And on the website it's all the same
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Speaker 2: stuff that Cindy Babecco has fed, which is, you know,
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Speaker 2: we're going to cure your cancer. This is how we're
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Speaker 2: going to do it, this is why you shouldn't see
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Speaker 2: medical doctors. And so Teres Westwall decides to go. And
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Speaker 2: this was one thing on the website. It promised Star
13:52
Speaker 2: Wars level technology with little to no side effects.
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Speaker 1: Star Wars can't. Yeah, yeah, And so it's like a
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Speaker 1: fictional sci fi series, right, and really, movie, what are.
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Speaker 3: We talking about?
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Speaker 2: What are we talking about? And you know, the whole
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Speaker 2: medical system can be, like you said, so difficult to
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Speaker 2: navigate that. I imagine if someone's like, okay, why would
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Speaker 2: someone be able to say this if it's not true?
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Speaker 1: Well, she shouldn't be able to make promises that she
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Speaker 1: can cure people when it's not true. I imagine that's
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Speaker 1: going to come back in the trial to bite her.
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Speaker 3: It sure is. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: The website reads, we perform the necessary testing to confirm
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Speaker 2: the death of the tumor. We show all patients the
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Speaker 2: results which confirm that the tumor mass is dead or dying.
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Speaker 2: Leash therapy, as originally designed by its founder, can successfully
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Speaker 2: kill cancer without the need for additional damaging procedures or
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Speaker 2: the utilization of any follow up drug regimen.
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Speaker 1: Wow, so you're reading this from the website which is
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Speaker 1: still up. This is from a court document. Yeah, I'm
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Speaker 1: just so curious what their like origin story is.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So this claim on the website that says without the
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Speaker 2: need for damaging procedures or the utilization of follow up
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Speaker 2: drug regiment also gives you the sense of finality when
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Speaker 2: your treatment is done, it's done. Yeah, you don't need
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Speaker 2: to go questioning it. That's very dangerous, right, Oh yeah,
15:19
Speaker 2: because then if someone experiences another symptom.
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Speaker 1: Well, even when people are in remission, when they've gone
15:26
Speaker 1: through like chemotherapy and whatever other you know, treatments and
15:30
Speaker 1: the intermission, you hear about cancer survivors saying you still
15:34
Speaker 1: are on edge for a certain amount of years. There's
15:37
Speaker 1: these chances, depending on your treatment and your body and everything,
15:40
Speaker 1: that it could return. So you have to be really
15:42
Speaker 1: diligent about going and getting check ups. So the idea
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Speaker 1: that you would just be like boom boom, never again
15:48
Speaker 1: going to check it out, just like terrible, so dangerous.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So in November of two thousand and seven, Trace
15:55
Speaker 2: makes this trip to Jacksonville, and just like Cindy, who
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Speaker 2: would a year leader, she paid almost seven thousand dollars
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Speaker 2: for this treatment. Her treatment takes place over one week,
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Speaker 2: so she's there for a week and she's doing treatment
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Speaker 2: the whole time. Of course, none of these fees are
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Speaker 2: paid by insurance because this isn't valid medical treatment.
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Speaker 3: So this is all out of pocket.
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Speaker 2: This is all out of pocket, and it's not FDA approved,
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Speaker 2: it's not being performed by a real doctor. But miraculously,
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Speaker 2: after a week at this Jacksonville clinic, Carpenter tells to
16:26
Speaker 2: Race her cancer is cured. The homemade laser machine has
16:29
Speaker 2: killed the cancer as cells. Now, to answer your question
16:33
Speaker 2: about what is the origin story of Ansanella, Carpenter becoming
16:37
Speaker 2: this person who treats cancer. This is according to her obituary. Okay,
16:42
Speaker 2: she's an electronic engineer for government contractors during the Reagan
16:46
Speaker 2: administration and later created a patented laser and started her
16:50
Speaker 2: own company in the pursuit of treating cancer. So the
16:55
Speaker 2: answer is, I don't totally know. But as we get
16:58
Speaker 2: into this, we'll see Anne Carpenter is a conspiracy theorist
17:04
Speaker 2: who's not a surprise.
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Speaker 3: Right, not a surprise.
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Speaker 2: She is openly against conventional medicine and medical doctors. So
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Speaker 2: Teres Westfall goes to Lay's Minding in two thousand and seven,
17:23
Speaker 2: spends a week there, is told her cancer is cured.
17:26
Speaker 2: But by March of two thousand and eight, she's feeling
17:28
Speaker 2: a lot of pain on the left side.
17:30
Speaker 3: Of her chest.
17:31
Speaker 2: How much longer is that this is about, I want
17:34
Speaker 2: to say, like maybe six months, Okay.
17:36
Speaker 1: So then she starts feeling pain, okay, and.
17:39
Speaker 2: She's been told that her tumor has been killed by
17:41
Speaker 2: this laser. So when she starts feeling this large, hard,
17:46
Speaker 2: feeling mass, she calls Antonola Carpenter, and Carpenter reassures her
17:52
Speaker 2: that she's fine. Her left breast has now turned purple.
17:55
Speaker 2: But Carpenter's not concerned. She says it's a non issue.
17:59
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
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Speaker 2: Right, but Teresa isn't a lot of pain, and so
18:03
Speaker 2: she does go see an oncologist, who of course then
18:06
Speaker 2: confirms actually the cancer is still there, and this time
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Speaker 2: Terse opts for chemotherapy and eventually masectomy. But by this
18:16
Speaker 2: time she's considered to have stage four cancer, which is
18:19
Speaker 2: a ten percent chance of survival. Now, backing up a
18:24
Speaker 2: little bit two thousand and seven, the time that she
18:26
Speaker 2: spent thinking she was cured by Angela Carpenter. When she
18:30
Speaker 2: was initially diagnosed, which led her to go seek out Carpenter,
18:35
Speaker 2: she had a seventy five to ninety percent chance of survival.
18:38
Speaker 3: Wow, so this.
18:39
Speaker 2: Is really the criminal aspect, I think here that might
18:44
Speaker 2: not have a specific associated charge, they'll look for other ways,
18:48
Speaker 2: but she's putting lives in danger absolutely. And so by
18:52
Speaker 2: the time Teres has sort of seen the light here
18:55
Speaker 2: that this person is not able to make good on
18:58
Speaker 2: these claims of curing can her cancer has progressed and
19:02
Speaker 2: now she's, you know, got a ten percent chance of survival.
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Speaker 2: So it's horrible. It's horrible. So Teres Westfall files a
19:10
Speaker 2: lawsuit and she says, you know, not only did Carpenter
19:14
Speaker 2: mislead her, but she's done this to countless others, which
19:17
Speaker 2: puts their lives at risk with pseudoscience. And maybe the
19:21
Speaker 2: worst of all is that she almost forbades them from
19:24
Speaker 2: seeing medical doctors. She's a very charismatic, persuasive person, and
19:31
Speaker 2: she's able to get in their heads and say don't
19:34
Speaker 2: go see these doctors. Now, as someone who's researching the
19:39
Speaker 2: story all these years later, I have to wonder maybe
19:42
Speaker 2: some part of her wanted to believe she could cure cancer.
19:47
Speaker 1: I'm sure, right, I mean, who knows. She does seem
19:50
Speaker 1: like the kind of person who believes her own story
19:56
Speaker 1: to a delusional degree. Yeah, because when you have a
19:59
Speaker 1: patient you're not even a doctor, You shouldn't have a
20:01
Speaker 1: patient who dies. This should be a huge wake up
20:06
Speaker 1: call to you. It should be a huge way and
20:08
Speaker 1: you should ask yourself, what responsibility do I have? And
20:11
Speaker 1: this doesn't seem like that was the case.
20:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't seem like it was the case. And
20:15
Speaker 2: I would think that if I were operating outside of
20:18
Speaker 2: the medical system making these bold claims, if an oncologist,
20:22
Speaker 2: then did come back and say to one of my patients, Hey,
20:25
Speaker 2: your cancer are still there, I would be like, wait
20:27
Speaker 2: a minute, yeah, what's going on? Yeah, because of course
20:30
Speaker 2: meanwhile she's treating other people. So this lawsuit is filed,
20:37
Speaker 2: and actually, this is where I read about Cindy Bebecca's
20:40
Speaker 2: death is because her husband, Dave, testimony is part of
20:43
Speaker 2: this lawsuit about what happened to Cindy. So going through
20:46
Speaker 2: the lawsuit, you start to wonder, Okay, these claims that
20:50
Speaker 2: Teres Westfall is making, that Bob Rebecca, Cindy's husband is
20:54
Speaker 2: talking about.
20:54
Speaker 3: You're like, well, how could you believe her?
20:56
Speaker 2: But Antonola Carpenter had an actual medical doctor who was
21:01
Speaker 2: present at her clinic, really and I couldn't find out
21:05
Speaker 2: a lot about him. But he's named as doctor Joseph
21:08
Speaker 2: Ward in the lawsuit. In the court documents and the
21:12
Speaker 2: complaint alleges that doctor Ward was actually asleep during some
21:15
Speaker 2: of these appointments that he was supposedly overseeing. How much
21:19
Speaker 2: was doctor Ward being paid? I would love to know, Yeah,
21:23
Speaker 2: I would love to know. Now, a lot of the
21:25
Speaker 2: court docs were redacted. There wasn't a ton on pacer
21:29
Speaker 2: that I could find, But the court did side with
21:31
Speaker 2: Terse Westfall, and she received a two point five million
21:34
Speaker 2: dollar judgment. She never received the money. But what did
21:40
Speaker 2: come out of it, right, nothing, is that Lai's mending
21:44
Speaker 2: left Jacksonville, Florida. So that was the small win in
21:48
Speaker 2: the lawsuit, is that people were starting to talk about
21:50
Speaker 2: it and take notice. But you know, it's kind of
21:53
Speaker 2: a drop in the bucket because what did doctor Carpenter do?
21:56
Speaker 2: She opened a new location, of course she did in Oklahoma.
22:00
Speaker 1: My gosh, it's so infuriating. Like, obviously, the civil courts,
22:06
Speaker 1: the civil system, legal system is important, but the amount
22:10
Speaker 1: of times we've heard stories of people winning civil cases
22:13
Speaker 1: and never seeing a dime and then the person just
22:16
Speaker 1: like skips town and is doing the same thing. And look,
22:22
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I've heard again and again from
22:24
Speaker 1: people when they try to contact law enforcement about this,
22:27
Speaker 1: they're told, Eh, it's a civil case.
22:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, nothing we can do. I mean, it's just it's
22:33
Speaker 2: it's maddening, but it's also dangerous. It is dangerous because
22:36
Speaker 2: here you have someone who's putting people's lives at risk
22:39
Speaker 2: and all she has to do is cross state lines
22:42
Speaker 2: and she evades responsibility. Yeah, and so she opens this
22:47
Speaker 2: new location just outside of Tulsa, Oklahoma in oaso am.
22:52
Speaker 2: I saying that right owaso ohasa, Okay, our Oklahoma in here.
22:56
Speaker 2: So by twenty ten, the FDA is now watching. A
23:01
Speaker 2: man has come forward and alerted them that he has
23:05
Speaker 2: throat cancer and Carpenter promised him she would cure it
23:08
Speaker 2: with only three treatments, but didn't. And of course this
23:13
Speaker 2: was easy now for the FDA to see. Okay, now
23:15
Speaker 2: they can track her from the lawsuit she was sued
23:18
Speaker 2: in Florida. She also has a clinic in Arkansas that's
23:22
Speaker 2: still operating at this time. Right the overlap it closes down,
23:25
Speaker 2: and then she's entirely in Oklahoma. And so they start
23:28
Speaker 2: investigating in twenty ten in the Oklahoma location. Okay, and
23:32
Speaker 2: how they do that? And I didn't even know this
23:34
Speaker 2: about the FDA. The FDA kind of like the FBI
23:37
Speaker 2: or police departments, has undercover agents.
23:39
Speaker 1: Oh cool, yeah, how exciting for them.
23:42
Speaker 2: I know, like no offense to the FDA, but I
23:44
Speaker 2: pictured them as more like quality control lab coats.
23:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
23:49
Speaker 2: So the FDA sends undercover agents to her clinic. Nice, yeah,
23:55
Speaker 2: and they oppose as cancer patients and relatives of cancer patients,
23:59
Speaker 2: and they eventually do a raid.
24:02
Speaker 1: I mean, so you're an undercover agent and you're gonna
24:05
Speaker 1: let this lady inject unknown liquid, green liquid into your
24:09
Speaker 1: body and then burn you with a laser. I mean,
24:12
Speaker 1: that's commitment to the job.
24:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I wonder if they took it
24:15
Speaker 2: that far, or if they just did these appointments where
24:18
Speaker 2: they're like, tell me more about this innovative treatment.
24:21
Speaker 1: Wearing a wire, getting her to say I guarantee you
24:24
Speaker 1: or what exactly. Yeah, probably they weren't injected.
24:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, of course, also at these appointments
24:30
Speaker 2: they're hearing Antonola Carpenter talk about how vaccines are harmful
24:35
Speaker 2: and don't see medical doctors chemotherapies of scam, radiations of scam.
24:41
Speaker 3: It's all going to kill you, gosh.
24:44
Speaker 2: And so they're putting together a case, but it takes
24:47
Speaker 2: two years, and in the midst of that, you know,
24:50
Speaker 2: Carpenter a is seeing patients. So the investigation begins in
24:54
Speaker 2: October of twenty ten. The raid happens in July twenty twelve,
24:58
Speaker 2: and they take everything. They take all of her digital evidence,
25:03
Speaker 2: the homemade laser, they.
25:05
Speaker 3: Take it all, love it and she is pissed.
25:10
Speaker 2: And this is what makes me think she believes what
25:14
Speaker 2: she's selling.
25:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like, how dare you come between me and
25:17
Speaker 1: my purpose of saving people's lives? Right exactly?
25:20
Speaker 2: And she had a blog at one point, and she
25:24
Speaker 2: accuses the RAID of just being like sort of an
25:27
Speaker 2: agent for the medical field and big cancer business, Like
25:32
Speaker 2: they're just an agent for this big pharma that wants
25:34
Speaker 2: to like take away my ability to cure cancer because
25:38
Speaker 2: it's going to cost them zillions of dollars.
25:40
Speaker 1: When people realize this is how she is, it's like
25:45
Speaker 1: so bananas and also creeps me out in a way
25:50
Speaker 1: where I'm like, with where we are now with like
25:53
Speaker 1: anti vaxx beliefs and science denihalism, I'm like I could
26:01
Speaker 1: just picture some people hearing about this and being on
26:04
Speaker 1: her side. Yeah, I don't know, it just it sends
26:07
Speaker 1: like a shiver down my spine.
26:09
Speaker 2: It's so scary. And as we get into the case,
26:11
Speaker 2: we'll see people were on her side who she did treat.
26:14
Speaker 2: So for two years she's without all of the things
26:18
Speaker 2: that were taken from her in the.
26:19
Speaker 1: Raid, okay, and she is pissed, okay, And she is
26:22
Speaker 1: because her she only has one laser. I think she
26:25
Speaker 1: had two, and both they've both been taken.
26:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, if I was like some
26:31
Speaker 2: sort of mad scientist that believed I could cure cancer
26:35
Speaker 2: and I've got the laser to do it.
26:37
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have like a backup, backup.
26:40
Speaker 1: If she made the laser, why couldn't she just make
26:42
Speaker 1: another one?
26:42
Speaker 3: Right?
26:43
Speaker 2: I mean I assume they would have shut that down immediately.
26:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
26:46
Speaker 2: She went on a YouTube show called truth Talk News.
26:52
Speaker 2: I would not recommend it. Yeah, and she did an
26:55
Speaker 2: interview with this person. I mean, first of all, it
26:58
Speaker 2: sounded like the interviewer who owns this YouTube channel. It
27:02
Speaker 2: sounds like he has a sound machine on in the background.
27:05
Speaker 3: Oh wow, it's it is. It is so bad.
27:10
Speaker 2: And just the audio quality, Yeah, the audio quality is
27:13
Speaker 2: so bad. It was unusably bad. He has like eighty
27:17
Speaker 2: total videos, most of them have just a few hundred views.
27:20
Speaker 2: But the interview, it is nonsensical beyond sort of what
27:25
Speaker 2: I would have expected. Not that I would have thought
27:27
Speaker 2: I would ever agree with what she was saying or
27:30
Speaker 2: what he was saying. But he's not asking her even
27:34
Speaker 2: to sort of, hey, tell us why they shouldn't have
27:38
Speaker 2: done this, tell us why this works. They're just like
27:41
Speaker 2: yapping back and forth about conspiracies. You know, I've never
27:45
Speaker 2: seen not everyone should have a show, not everyone should
27:47
Speaker 2: have a freakin' podcast. Yeah, And you know I was
27:52
Speaker 2: listening to it, like, Wow, I'm fortunate I've never had
27:56
Speaker 2: a cancer diagnosis. But it was surprising to me because
28:00
Speaker 2: intonal Carpenter when I was listening to her speak, I
28:03
Speaker 2: don't see the charisma. Really, I don't see the like,
28:06
Speaker 2: oh this inspires confidence person.
28:09
Speaker 3: I mean, she sounds angry.
28:13
Speaker 1: Wow, and so but this is after the raid, so
28:15
Speaker 1: maybe she is angry that these lasers have been taken
28:17
Speaker 1: away from her.
28:18
Speaker 2: Right, She's definitely angry about the raid, But she is
28:21
Speaker 2: a conspiracy theorist.
28:22
Speaker 1: She's an angry degree. She's angry at big pharmac Pharma,
28:27
Speaker 1: the government.
28:28
Speaker 2: Cancer is a business for them. All of these treatments
28:31
Speaker 2: are just to get you to suffer and pay all
28:33
Speaker 2: this money. And I mean it sounds like she's selling anger, right,
28:37
Speaker 2: which is as we've seen now. It's like a very sellable,
28:40
Speaker 2: very powerful message totally. And the interview, I mean there
28:44
Speaker 2: wasn't even really a useful clip. It was just like
28:47
Speaker 2: nonsense back and forth. Actually, her and the host sort
28:50
Speaker 2: of like talking over each other, Like it was so
28:52
Speaker 2: bizarre that I was like, how could this person have
28:56
Speaker 2: convinced so many people?
28:58
Speaker 1: You know, you think a person's way of being when
29:01
Speaker 1: they come in, especially someone who you have expectations for
29:05
Speaker 1: being a medical professional, even if they're not. I don't know,
29:08
Speaker 1: like I would want someone to feel grounded and knowledgeable.
29:13
Speaker 1: But I also think there's a way to spin the kooky.
29:16
Speaker 1: I'm sort of crazy. I'm all over the place, but
29:20
Speaker 1: that's just because like I'm kind of this weird genius
29:23
Speaker 1: who has this miracle cure.
29:26
Speaker 2: Right, Like, I'm just crazy enough to think outside the box. Yeah,
29:29
Speaker 2: and want to help people. Maybe I'm charging thousands of dollars,
29:33
Speaker 2: but these people, it's nothing compared to what they're making, right,
29:36
Speaker 2: you know. Whereas me, I'm like, if I'm going in
29:38
Speaker 2: for surgery, I want the most like antisocial surgeon. Yeah,
29:43
Speaker 2: I don't you know whoever that person is. I don't
29:45
Speaker 2: want them to feel like warm and fuzzy, right, I
29:48
Speaker 2: don't need them to be friends with me. I just
29:50
Speaker 2: need them to be good at what they do. Yeah, exactly.
29:53
Speaker 2: And so in October of twenty fourteen. Marie Antonola Carpenter,
29:58
Speaker 2: So Marie is her first name, but she by Antila.
30:00
Speaker 2: Carpenter is indicted on forty one different charges, all ranging
30:05
Speaker 2: from a scheme to defraud cancer patients to wirefraud and
30:08
Speaker 2: mail fraud. And this might seem really egregious, right, here's
30:12
Speaker 2: this kind of quirky, angry person who wears like very
30:18
Speaker 2: eccentric clothing. It might seem like, Okay, this should be
30:22
Speaker 2: an easy case for the US Attorney's office. But it
30:24
Speaker 2: wasn't because Antonina Carpenter had a lot of supporters and
30:29
Speaker 2: not friends and family, but patients who truly believed that
30:33
Speaker 2: she had cured them, and not just that she had
30:36
Speaker 2: cured them, but that she had spared them from this
30:39
Speaker 2: awful treatment like chemotherapy and radiation that actually would have
30:44
Speaker 2: threatened their lives more. And one of those people is
30:48
Speaker 2: Tamra Ford. Tamra Ford testifies at the trial, and that's
30:53
Speaker 2: where I'm getting this information. So Tamra's from just outside
30:58
Speaker 2: of Fort Worth, Texas, and she's been diagnosed with breast cancer.
31:01
Speaker 2: This is sometime around I think two thousand and eight,
31:04
Speaker 2: and she wants to avoid surgery and radiation which is
31:08
Speaker 2: what leads her to Lay's med ink. She meets with Carpenter,
31:12
Speaker 2: she likes her right away, and what Tamer says is
31:15
Speaker 2: that Carpenter took the time to answer her questions and
31:19
Speaker 2: her husband's questions, and says that she felt transparent and
31:23
Speaker 2: offered a plethora of information. And now we have at
31:28
Speaker 2: our disposal now chatgebet a whole new version of the
31:33
Speaker 2: Internet that existed back in twenty ten, accessibility to information.
31:39
Speaker 2: So you're really more reliant on doctors telling you or
31:44
Speaker 2: perceived doctors telling you information. So she's saying a plaza
31:47
Speaker 2: of information. But this is just a sales pitch.
31:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I do think the information accessibility is a
31:54
Speaker 1: really important piece because you're right, like, anyone who has
31:57
Speaker 1: a medical scare or a diagnose would have so many
32:01
Speaker 1: questions about what this means for their body, for their life,
32:05
Speaker 1: for their chances. And so yeah, I imagine having someone
32:09
Speaker 1: sit with you and just listen and answer, even if
32:11
Speaker 1: those answers are made up, probably feels good. Yeah, in
32:16
Speaker 1: how many people have known someone who did go through chemotherapy,
32:21
Speaker 1: did go through radiation and still died. Yeah, And so
32:30
Speaker 1: Tamar has a tumor in her left breast. It's called
32:33
Speaker 1: low infiltrated ductyl carcinoma. This is the most common type
32:38
Speaker 1: of breast cancer. It actually accounts for almost eighty percent
32:40
Speaker 1: of cases. It begins with abnormal cells growing in milk
32:44
Speaker 1: dugs make their way into breastissue. So when it's caught
32:47
Speaker 1: in the early stages and treated properly, it's still very serious,
32:51
Speaker 1: but survival rates are high. It's when it metastasizes that
32:55
Speaker 1: the chance of survival goes down. So back to this clinic,
32:59
Speaker 1: tam and her husband are in the treatment room with
33:01
Speaker 1: Carpenter and Carpenter's moving this laser around her left breast
33:05
Speaker 1: and it takes a couple of hours. Tamra says the
33:07
Speaker 1: treatment is painful, results in swelling, and Carpenter says, i'd
33:12
Speaker 1: be profen and you're good to go. So Carpenter also
33:15
Speaker 1: gives her some other advice. She says, cut out sugar,
33:18
Speaker 1: eat a healthy diet, but mostly she says, just let
33:22
Speaker 1: the treatment do the work. And there's a lot of
33:25
Speaker 1: forms being signed at these appointments, and so the intention
33:29
Speaker 1: is to release Carpenter from responsibility if someone doesn't respond
33:33
Speaker 1: to the treatment. After the treatment, Tamar and her husband
33:36
Speaker 1: return to Texas, and six months later, Tamara returns for
33:39
Speaker 1: a second treatment with Carpenter. She returns for a third
33:42
Speaker 1: treatment another six months after that. So over the course
33:45
Speaker 1: of eighteen months, the only cancer treatment the Tamra receives
33:49
Speaker 1: is this laser therapy treatment for mantonella. Carpenter, who is
33:52
Speaker 1: a physicist. Now, Tamra says, she then has two ultrasounds,
33:57
Speaker 1: one from Carpenter and one from a doctor doctor in Texas.
34:02
Speaker 1: In both ultrasounds, Tamra says, she's giving this court testimony
34:06
Speaker 1: revealed that the tumor has decreased in size, but it
34:09
Speaker 1: also has revealed a second tumor. So Tamra is there
34:14
Speaker 1: in defense of Carpenter at this trial. Even though now
34:19
Speaker 1: she has a second tumor and the first one did
34:21
Speaker 1: not in fact die with the chemotherapy treatment, I mean,
34:23
Speaker 1: with the later treatment. Time of the trial, she has
34:26
Speaker 1: two tumors, Okay.
34:27
Speaker 2: At the time that she's giving the testimony, she has
34:30
Speaker 2: had two tumors. Yeah, and she decides to have more
34:35
Speaker 2: conventional treatment now that she has the second tumor. However,
34:40
Speaker 2: even despite that, like I'm looking at the situation, I'm like, Okay,
34:44
Speaker 2: maybe you don't fully feel confident in her ability to
34:48
Speaker 2: cure cancer. But Tamra's still there in defensive parpener and
34:53
Speaker 2: she doesn't give like a clear reason to me and
34:55
Speaker 2: her testimony why she saw a medical doctor. But I
34:58
Speaker 2: can imagine maybe it was like cognitive dissonance. I've told
35:03
Speaker 2: all these people about this unconventional treatment I'm doing, and
35:06
Speaker 2: she said, my tumor reduced in size, and now I
35:08
Speaker 2: have this other one, and I spent all this money
35:10
Speaker 2: and time. I'm going to go see a conventional doctor.
35:13
Speaker 2: But you know that's okay, I'm not mad about Carpenter.
35:18
Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine, these are supporters of Carpenter.
35:21
Speaker 2: A man named Raymond Barns was diagnosed with skin cancer.
35:25
Speaker 2: Now a conventional doctor, a medical doctor, doctor Gregory Hogel,
35:30
Speaker 2: recommends surgery and radiation treatment, but Raymond doesn't have health
35:34
Speaker 2: insurance and wants to find an alternative. Eventually, he finds
35:39
Speaker 2: the Antonola Carpenter and pays fourteen thousand dollars for this treatment.
35:45
Speaker 2: But as he is doing that, the state that he
35:47
Speaker 2: lives in approves financial aid for treatment. Okay, so then
35:51
Speaker 2: he goes back to doctor Hogel. In January, of twenty ten,
35:55
Speaker 2: and he tells doctor Hogel, Well, Carpenter told me that
35:58
Speaker 2: she cured my can Doctor Hogle says, no, she didn't.
36:02
Speaker 2: It's still there. The cancer was growing. And Raymond dies
36:05
Speaker 2: in March of twenty eleven.
36:06
Speaker 3: Wow. So but he's one of her supporters.
36:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he didn't feel defrauded. But he passed away
36:14
Speaker 2: before the trial. Okay, but he was someone who Carpenter
36:18
Speaker 2: pointed to as a success. I mean, it makes no sense. Yeah,
36:22
Speaker 2: he died, Yeah, he died. Carpenter pleads not guilty to
36:26
Speaker 2: these charges. Right, she's fighting it, and the state's Attorney's
36:29
Speaker 2: office for the Northern District of Oklahoma is alleging all
36:32
Speaker 2: of this fraud that happens from two thousand and six
36:35
Speaker 2: to twenty twelve, of claiming these treatments were one hundred
36:38
Speaker 2: percent effective, which they weren't.
36:39
Speaker 3: Yeah.
36:40
Speaker 2: Now, the state's attorney says, this is not a malpractice case,
36:44
Speaker 2: this is a fraud case. Five of the seven patients
36:47
Speaker 2: who felt defrauded by Carpenter has died before the trial.
36:51
Speaker 2: So it's hard because the people who supported her, they
36:55
Speaker 2: were alive and so they were able to testify, right,
36:59
Speaker 2: And the people who were there to testify that didn't
37:02
Speaker 2: make it. Are the doctors who treated the people who
37:05
Speaker 2: died post being treated by.
37:07
Speaker 1: Carpenter, or like the husband of the woman who died, right,
37:12
Speaker 1: and he was part of the civil suit testimony. Oh right,
37:15
Speaker 1: So he's not even part of this, right. So you
37:18
Speaker 1: just have doctors. And on the other side you have
37:20
Speaker 1: people people, yeah, who feel that their lives were spared.
37:23
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously doctors are people, but yeah, in the courtroom, Yeah,
37:27
Speaker 1: there's a differentiation there.
37:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
37:31
Speaker 3: Yeah.
37:31
Speaker 2: And so the people who were called to testify on
37:34
Speaker 2: behalf of what happened to those patients who died were
37:36
Speaker 2: these post treatment doctors. And now a quick wording note
37:40
Speaker 2: is I'm not implying that any of Carpenter's treatments were successful,
37:44
Speaker 2: only that some people who saw her for treatment felt
37:47
Speaker 2: that they were.
37:48
Speaker 1: Right, that was their perception, right, even though they all
37:50
Speaker 1: went on to get traditional you know, medical chemotherapy or
37:56
Speaker 1: other treatments for cancer.
37:57
Speaker 2: Right, It's like correlation, not causation. And so in July
38:03
Speaker 2: of twenty twelve, this is another doctor who's testifying at
38:06
Speaker 2: the trial. He's telling us the story of a cancer
38:08
Speaker 2: patient named Donna. Okay, Donna is lying in a hospital
38:13
Speaker 2: bed in Little Rock, Arkansas, and doctor Scott Stern, a
38:16
Speaker 2: surgical oncologist, is brought in to help diagnose her. He says,
38:20
Speaker 2: already known to doctors that Donna has cancer, but she's
38:23
Speaker 2: previously been treated elsewhere. He says that Donna has squamous
38:27
Speaker 2: cell carcinoma of the base of the tongue that has
38:29
Speaker 2: metastasized to her lymph nodes in her neck. So this
38:32
Speaker 2: is very deadly, and she has been seeing Carpenter for
38:36
Speaker 2: laser therapy and she passes away in May of twenty fifteen.
38:40
Speaker 2: So from the three years that he saw her, she
38:43
Speaker 2: passes away despite then having conventional treatment. So another patient
38:48
Speaker 2: who saw Ansela Carpenter saw her in twenty ten, Carl Trant.
38:52
Speaker 2: He had a tumor on his jawbone. Carpenter said that
38:55
Speaker 2: she could kill the tumor, but after fourteen thousand dollars
38:58
Speaker 2: out of pocket treatment, tumor greup by the time Carl
39:01
Speaker 2: returned to her clinic in twenty twelve for yet another
39:04
Speaker 2: treatment that had been rated by the FDA, So it
39:07
Speaker 2: couldn't happen. Wow, Yeah, So by February, the jury's deliberating
39:13
Speaker 2: in this trial, and more than ten former patients testified
39:17
Speaker 2: in support of Carpenter, despite the fact that she did
39:20
Speaker 2: not rid them of cancer. And she's sentenced to probation.
39:25
Speaker 2: She sentenced to probation and a one point one million
39:29
Speaker 2: dollar forfeiture, Okay, And she's very angry about this, despite
39:34
Speaker 2: the fact that she totally avoids incarceration for this. And
39:38
Speaker 2: you know, I think part of the reason is she
39:40
Speaker 2: was in her sixties or seventies when this is going down,
39:43
Speaker 2: and you know, she's probably not going to be able
39:46
Speaker 2: to keep practicing after this. And she actually passed away
39:49
Speaker 2: on April twenty six, twenty twenty one. And yeah, she
39:53
Speaker 2: had a little blog that was sort of poorly written,
39:57
Speaker 2: mostly anti vacs theories, fear a big pharma and she
40:04
Speaker 2: did make money from these place many.
40:08
Speaker 3: How much money she made.
40:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I couldn't find anything saying that she was
40:12
Speaker 2: living a lavish lifestyle, but this was supporting her family.
40:16
Speaker 2: Her daughter worked for her at the clinic. But what
40:19
Speaker 2: I did find is a quote from the prosecuting attorney
40:23
Speaker 2: for the US Attorney's office who said that he believed
40:26
Speaker 2: she was driven by ego.
40:28
Speaker 3: Interesting, it's interesting.
40:29
Speaker 2: Because you know, we hear about male fraudsters and them
40:34
Speaker 2: being ego driven, and of course that can be true
40:37
Speaker 2: with women too, it's just I think less common. We
40:40
Speaker 2: usually hear about financial motivations and yeah, yeah, and that
40:44
Speaker 2: was his sort of assessment of it. But they were
40:47
Speaker 2: disappointed that she did not get a harsher sentence.
40:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I hope that she didn't go on
40:54
Speaker 1: to practice after that. At least she's not actively harming
40:58
Speaker 1: people with her her you know, snake oil treatments for cancer.
41:05
Speaker 1: The amount of patients that she had even that you
41:07
Speaker 1: listed who died, it's unbelievable. And either she's like a
41:12
Speaker 1: maniacal She was like a maniacal, terrible person who didn't
41:16
Speaker 1: care that people died, or she had just created this
41:19
Speaker 1: illusion that she believed that was probably very much about
41:23
Speaker 1: her own ego and being this person who'd figured it
41:27
Speaker 1: out and knew more than the whole medical industry, right.
41:31
Speaker 2: And it's like this identity you know, you see with
41:34
Speaker 2: these conspiracy theorists who have these YouTube channels and do
41:37
Speaker 2: these like bogus they call them interviews. It wasn't really
41:40
Speaker 2: an interview. Yeah, he didn't ask her any hard questions.
41:43
Speaker 2: You know, they just hyped each other up on these conspiracies,
41:46
Speaker 2: and it's an identity. It becomes someone's identity. Yeah, and
41:50
Speaker 2: then it's hard for them to, I think, step away
41:52
Speaker 2: and look, although you know, I'm not excusing what she did,
41:56
Speaker 2: making claims like that life threatening, but yeah, she passed
41:59
Speaker 2: away in in April of twenty twenty one and never
42:01
Speaker 2: spent a day in prison and never paid the civil suit.
42:05
Speaker 3: Wow.
42:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's horrible. What a story. Yeah, Oklahoma just keeps popping.
42:11
Speaker 3: Up, it really does. It's the theme on the show. Yeah.
42:14
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I'm glad that there was some record
42:17
Speaker 1: of her being sued and then prosecuted by the FDA.
42:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it really I think is clear that we
42:25
Speaker 2: live in a country where you want medical sort of autonomy,
42:29
Speaker 2: you want decisions about your body to include you, Yeah,
42:33
Speaker 2: and I totally understand that, but we should all be
42:36
Speaker 2: making decisions based on facts.
42:39
Speaker 3: Yeah.
42:40
Speaker 1: And also if someone doesn't want treatment, like I agree, Like, yeah,
42:44
Speaker 1: I'm on board with people making decisions whatever it is
42:47
Speaker 1: about their own bodies. But it's the fact that she
42:50
Speaker 1: claimed that this was like guaranteed when it was so
42:54
Speaker 1: clearly not. When her patients were dying, and also discouraged
42:59
Speaker 1: her patients from seeing medical doctors. That's so conniving and
43:04
Speaker 1: gross and criminal and like cool, you want to go
43:08
Speaker 1: do alternative treatments alongside you know, your standard medical treatments, great, like,
43:14
Speaker 1: go for it. But as soon as someone starts telling
43:17
Speaker 1: you don't go see a doctor, run for the hills.
43:20
Speaker 1: Run for the hills, like they're trying to hide something. Yeah,
43:23
Speaker 1: Like that was my takeaway is she doesn't want them
43:25
Speaker 1: to see doctors because the doctors will tell her patients
43:27
Speaker 1: that this doesn't work. Yeah, but she's selling totally.
43:30
Speaker 3: Yeah.
43:31
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't think she was making millions
43:33
Speaker 2: of dollars, but she was making enough to support herself
43:36
Speaker 2: and this was her career. This was her career.
43:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, mm hmm. Yeah.
43:39
Speaker 2: I have one recommendation actually, and it's going to it's
43:43
Speaker 2: not related to this, but it sort of prompted the
43:47
Speaker 2: same sort of conversation or question in my mind about
43:50
Speaker 2: our you know, medical freedom quote unquote.
43:54
Speaker 3: Yeah.
43:54
Speaker 2: So the show that I've talked about on the podcast before,
43:57
Speaker 2: it's called Accused, Guilty or Innocent from any And actually,
44:01
Speaker 2: before I go any further, the episode that I'm going
44:03
Speaker 2: to be talking about today does deal with child loss,
44:06
Speaker 2: so please take care when listening. So there's a new
44:09
Speaker 2: season out and there's an episode about our midwife and
44:14
Speaker 2: she is accused of I don't remember her exact charge,
44:18
Speaker 2: but basically she was there for a birth that resulted
44:22
Speaker 2: and the baby didn't make it.
44:24
Speaker 3: Was this at home birth? It was a home birth.
44:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and important part of that that I forgot
44:30
Speaker 2: to mention.
44:30
Speaker 3: It's a home birth.
44:31
Speaker 2: She had a close relationship with the parents. And what
44:35
Speaker 2: ends up happening is the baby is breach and she's
44:39
Speaker 2: not equipped to help deliver this baby, and the baby
44:43
Speaker 2: doesn't make it, and by the time the ambulance arrives,
44:46
Speaker 2: things are really bad. But the baby dies later on,
44:49
Speaker 2: doesn't die at home, and it's this horrific tragedy. These
44:53
Speaker 2: young parents that are so excited about this baby lose
44:57
Speaker 2: the baby. She was found not going of any wrongdoing
45:02
Speaker 2: because I can't say totally why, but the way that
45:07
Speaker 2: the episode depicted it is that the parents were very
45:11
Speaker 2: supportive of her. They did not feel wronged by her.
45:14
Speaker 2: They felt like this was a tragedy that had many
45:17
Speaker 2: layers and that she was not responsible. And you know,
45:22
Speaker 2: I can't imagine the pain that they must be experiencing.
45:27
Speaker 2: And well, one part of me is like, you know,
45:29
Speaker 2: they made that decision to have a home birth, so
45:33
Speaker 2: maybe she shouldn't be totally at fault. But there's these
45:37
Speaker 2: very blurred lines between medical professional and not in the
45:43
Speaker 2: way that someone can promote themselves online. And we see
45:47
Speaker 2: that with home births, we see that with chiropractic care.
45:51
Speaker 3: I mean, don't get me started on that.
45:53
Speaker 2: Seriously, they said that they would use her services. Again, Yeah,
45:56
Speaker 2: I guess in that scenario and I haven't watched it,
45:58
Speaker 2: but it makes sense to me that she wouldn't be
46:00
Speaker 2: held responsible because if you choose to have a child
46:05
Speaker 2: in your home, I know, you have to know that
46:08
Speaker 2: there are risks involved with that, right, And unless she's
46:11
Speaker 2: presenting herself as a doctor, I imagine she's very honest
46:14
Speaker 2: about what she is and what her qualifications are. Yeah,
46:17
Speaker 2: let me look up her actual title because I'm pretty
46:19
Speaker 2: sure it was it was.
46:21
Speaker 3: Let's see.
46:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, her name is Angela Hawk And in June of
46:26
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, an unlicensed, quote old school midwife attempted to
46:31
Speaker 2: deliver a breach baby at home in Omaha.
46:34
Speaker 1: Oh maybe she didn't have a midwife license or something. Yeah,
46:38
Speaker 1: and unlicensed midwives. I feel like I looked this up
46:41
Speaker 1: at one point, maybe when we were doing an adoption
46:44
Speaker 1: fraud story. There might be something to do with the
46:48
Speaker 1: laws on what qualifications midwives have to have are different
46:53
Speaker 1: state by state, and they also have changed over time, right,
46:55
Speaker 1: so sometimes like older midwives, they didn't have to do
46:59
Speaker 1: the same testing and the qualification whatever, then they do now.
47:03
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's something like that or not,
47:06
Speaker 1: but I don't know. It's sort of confusing.
47:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had a hospital birth and I
47:10
Speaker 2: felt like I was in you know, great hands, And
47:14
Speaker 2: I know not everyone leaves their birth experience feeling that way,
47:17
Speaker 2: but you know, anytime you have to travel from your
47:20
Speaker 2: home to a hospital when there's a life threatening event happening,
47:24
Speaker 2: that obviously takes time and then you're at the mercy
47:27
Speaker 2: of a lot of other factors.
47:28
Speaker 3: So I mean, it's just terrible.
47:29
Speaker 2: And the couple I think played a big part in
47:32
Speaker 2: how the jury saw it because they were supportive of
47:35
Speaker 2: her and did not feel that she was the reason
47:38
Speaker 2: for this.
47:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they didn't bring the charges, was like criminal charges, right,
47:42
Speaker 1: They did not bring these charges. The state brought the charges.
47:44
Speaker 3: Interesting.
47:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, cool, Well that's exciting. There's a new season out
47:48
Speaker 1: to check it out.
47:49
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's just such a unique show because it portrays
47:52
Speaker 2: the side of the defendants which you just don't usually
47:55
Speaker 2: see and really makes you think about how they found
47:58
Speaker 2: themselves in these situations.
48:00
Speaker 3: Yeah.
48:01
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for telling me that story today. Yeah, thanks
48:03
Speaker 1: for listening. We will see you guys next week. If
48:07
Speaker 1: you have a story for us, we would love to
48:09
Speaker 1: hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com,
48:12
Speaker 1: or you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife
48:14
Speaker 1: Podcast or.
48:15
Speaker 3: A Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
48:17
Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
48:20
Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and me Paysha Ey.
48:23
Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
48:26
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
48:30
Speaker 1: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
48:33
Speaker 1: the Airport.
48:33
Speaker 3: Artwork five Vanessa Lilac.
48:35
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.