Latest / Ruining the Workplace Podcast / EP 4 Victoria Woodhull Ruins Everything
Transcript
- Jaden: I'm Jaden and this is the Ruining the Workplace podcast. Danielle: and I'm Danielle. Jaden: All right, welcome back. Hello. It's going. ⁓ we were talking about all sorts of things before we jumped on here, but we didn't talk about this sort of tidal wave of teenager emotion. ⁓ Danielle: Welcome back. Hi, Jaden. How's it going? say more. Jaden: I don't even want to. Yeah, exactly. Danielle: Okay, don't. We just know it's out there and that's it. We know it exists. I don't envy that. I want no part of it. Jaden: I I know. Well, all I want to say is that I love how our kids, teens, whatever, constantly, at least mine makes me think that I have it all figured out all the time. She expects me to know everything. And then I don't. And I have to level with her and be like, I am figuring out a lot of things at the moment. You know what I mean? In the moment. Danielle: Yeah. Jaden: Yeah, I just had one of those mornings where it was like, get your... Danielle: Can I just say though that I love that you're doing that level setting now because went through most of my life like into adulthood thinking like my parents know everything. Jaden: Mm-hmm. ⁓ my Yeah Danielle: And to some extent, they present themselves in that way. So you have to, right? But I certainly wasn't getting the like, listen, I don't know. I'm getting it now. And I'm like, what? I was for sure in my 20s when it dawned on me of like, ⁓ my dad knows a lot of things. He doesn't. Jaden: You have to! ⁓ Danielle: It's not fair to think that he knows everything. Like, he's not, and he's not right about everything. Like, he doesn't know everything. So I'm glad that you're like, hey, I'm human. I know many things, but not, I'm not a wizard. I don't know all of it. Yeah. Right? Yeah, exactly. Jaden: No. Mm-hmm No, I'm a witch, but not a wizard. Well, I'm going to tell you about a fabulous woman who has a really interesting story. It starts, obviously, with her parents who clearly do not know everything, and we'll learn about that here. Danielle: Does she know that they don't know everything? Okay, okay, all right. Jaden: I think it's pretty obvious to her. It's not quite as ⁓ mysterious. But today we're going to talk about Victoria Woodhull. Are you familiar with Victoria Woodhull? Well, she's a very interesting lady who I'm just going to shorten this top line to be kind of focused around one thing, is eventually in the story, she is the first woman who runs for president. Danielle: I am not. Who is this? Ooh, ⁓ I love that. Was this from like four years ago or? This is a recent history. Jaden: Yeah. Danielle: You Jaden: Victoria Woodhull is actually Kamala Harris's dead name. Danielle: We... Yeah. I knew it. I knew it. I heard that name. Jaden: or covenant name. Yeah, spot on, you nailed it. Anyway. Danielle: I knew it. Okay. You know me, I stay up on up. Jaden: Anyway, jumping in. So Victoria Woodhull was born Victoria California Claflin on September 23rd, 1838 in Homer, Ohio. Danielle: That name, California. That's so fancy. ⁓ my gosh, okay. Jaden: I know it's gonna get better. Just you wait. I know. I know I was really hoping at some point in the story she'd be like, Callie, like my I go by Callie. It would, but it doesn't happen, so Danielle: that would be cute. ⁓ it doesn't. Jaden: So Victoria's parents were Ruben Claflin and Roxanna and she was the seventh of 10 children. ⁓ And ⁓ unfortunately, only six of her siblings ⁓ to fortunately, she did have a very close lifelong collaborator that was her younger sister. And. ⁓ This is going to be a fun name too. Her name was Tennessee Claflin. Danielle: But her first name was Tennessee. Jaden: Her first name was Tennessee, I believe her middle name was Celeste, so. Danielle: ⁓ that's pretty. Tennessee Celeste. Do their other siblings also have states names? Hmm. Very curious. Wait, and I know, come on. ⁓ Where did you say, did you say where they're living? Jaden: I am not aware. I did not dig into that. I should have anticipated that question. Yeah, this was in Homer, Ohio at this point. And so this ⁓ childhood she and her sister were living through was pretty unstable. And a lot of times it was dangerous. ⁓ And she only received about three years of schooling, and it was pretty inconsistent. And it was religious driven. It was driven by the Homer's ⁓ Methodist Church School. Danielle: Ohio. Okay. Jaden: kind of off to a rough start. And then that education ended abruptly when her family was forced to flee the town after neighbors suspected her father of burning down his own mill for the insurance payout. Yeah. And to add insult to injury, it suggested that the family was actually chased out of the town by vigilantes. They were not. Yeah. Danielle: What? ⁓ my God. Like for real, like they didn't just leave in the nighttime. They were like chased out. ⁓ my God. You are bad people. That's, that's wild. What would the church say? ⁓ my gosh. Seems like it. Yeah. Jaden: They were like, get out. We don't like what you're doing. Yeah. Would the church, well, I believe the church would chase you out of town. you know, Victoria's father was a pretty complicated dude. He was like trained as a lawyer, but better known as a con artist and snake oil salesman. So putting those legal skills to use in the wrong way. And her mother ⁓ was illiterate and deeply involved in spiritualism. And this like really heavily influenced their household. ⁓ Danielle: Right? Jaden: And by most accounts, Victoria herself was pretty bright. And from a young age, she participated in family's traveling medicine show. Ooh, yeah. And she told fortunes and sold homemade remedies. ⁓ And this really kind of gave her early exposure to public performance, ⁓ basically like sales skills, persuasion, know. Danielle: I mean, it sounds like a good education, kind of, like, practical skills and a little bit of fantasy fun. Jaden: I mean, it's sort of learned by doing, Mm-hmm. Yeah, but I mean, here's the thing. It's sad because like she grew up in just the worst kind of situation. I said that her childhood was unstable, but like I'm talking it was dirty. It was gross. It was unstable. It was violent. She was beaten, starved, know, exploited and it was tough and Danielle: Yeah. Right? ⁓ yeah. Did they like live in a traveling like almost like a caravan like a wagon? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Jaden: Like a wagon. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. So ⁓ at this point, she is very young and kind of ⁓ showing signs that she's displaying genuine psychic abilities. so that was a big draw for this medicine show, right? I don't know if it was just influence of spiritualism or if there was other things going on, which trauma can induce some of these sort of signs, right? Like they mask, but ⁓ they were using her to read future and predict things and find missing objects and heal illness and all of this. And so this really, ⁓ this was really working well. But ⁓ she, this I think was really a way for her to build protection around herself. ⁓ develop survival skills. Basically, she's working a trade at this point, right? And so fast forward a little bit. She's 15. It's about 1853. And she meets and marries a man named Canning Woodhull. And he is a 28-year-old physician. Eh, yeah. Danielle: Wait, she's 15. I mean, I know that's not uncommon for the time, but it still sounds gross. Jaden: Well, and as you might have guessed, the marriage was unhappy and unstable right out of the gate. in large, yeah, I know. Large part, it was just driven by Victoria's desire to get out of that family situation. And that's a pretty common thing. Many girls tried to escape abuse by getting married. And then they end up married to someone like Canning, who really struggled with alcoholism. And he was not faithful to her at all. But. Danielle: You don't say. ⁓ sure. Jaden: ⁓ They managed to stay married for almost 13 years and had two children, Zulaimad and Byron. And Byron, unfortunately, had a disability. And it was not very clear in terms of historical records what exactly his condition was. But obviously, that just made her life ⁓ more serious, more difficult, more challenging. ⁓ But her husband was super unreliable. So Victoria became the primary provider for the family. And over the next several years, she worked many jobs. She was a seamstress, a store clerk, a stage actress. ⁓ And of course, she remained fortune telling. ⁓ And this is when she kind of got back together with her sister, Tennessee. And then they went on the road as traveling fortune tellers and healers. And Victoria described them as medical clairvoyance. And they claimed, they claimed. they could diagnose and cure illness through spiritual insight. So yes, and they operated under the name Woodhull and Claflin. And they were pretty successful despite all the questionable medical claims. I mean, get that back, girl. Yeah, but in 1865, Victoria was like, Danielle: Both? ⁓ my god. Interesting. mean, hmm. Right. Yeah, go for it. You do you. Jaden: I'm out. And she divorced Canning. And she had enough of his alcoholism, his infidelity. And I think that views, ⁓ also a big reason for this. But it's worth mentioning, know, divorce. It's a very radical and risky move for women in the mid-19th century. ⁓ interestingly, ⁓ Danielle: ⁓ yeah, that's bold. Jaden: Victoria became an outspoken advocate of ⁓ the free love movement, which is a very misunderstood philosophy. again, I believe this was part of her reason for wanting to be divorced outside of just being treated like shit. So for Victoria, free love meant it meant choice, know, the right, yeah, the right to enter and leave relationships freely, bodily autonomy. Danielle: ⁓ sure. Mm-hmm. Jaden: and just to basically not be trapped legally or socially by a marriage. And again, this is in a time that people are expecting women to marry young and remaining unmarried past like your teens is a huge social stigma and leaving a marriage was obviously just socially devastating. ⁓ Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So was this kind of like a precursor to like the 1960s, like hippie free love kind of a thing? Like, is it a similar concept of like, we just want to be able to do what we want to do in terms of relationships. Jaden: Yeah, I think that's probably a lot of seeds have been planted. Mm-hmm. And she was very vocal about that. ⁓ But it really carried some serious consequences later for her. So let's keep moving in her life. So several years later, ⁓ she is working as a spiritualistic physician. So she really kind of upleveled that medical clairvoyant to be a spiritualist physician. Danielle: Okay. Hmm. Okay. Jaden: which is, I guess, basically the same thing. But in that time, she'd moved to St. Louis, Missouri, and she met her second husband, ⁓ His name was James Blood. Danielle: And she is a clairvoyant physician. ⁓ my God, this is perfect. Please tell me that this was true love for her because that's just like a macabre match made in heaven. Jaden: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, macabre is the absolute right word for it. That's so good. mm-hmm, well, here's what happened. Danielle: I love them. I'm stanning them. Is that the thing, right? Or is it shipping? I don't know. I'm old now. They were shipping now. OK. Ship James and Victoria. Jaden: ⁓ shipping. think we're doing shipping now. Yeah, I think that's right. I ship James and Victoria. ⁓ Anyway, so ⁓ Mr. Blood was a Civil War veteran, reformer, and intellectual ally. So I think that like they're kind of on the same page about more things than she was obviously with her previous husband. But in one of their earliest sessions together, so she was seeing him as his spiritualistic physician, right? So in one of their early sessions, ⁓ Victoria predicted that they would get married. And wouldn't you know, he proposed soon after, even though he was still married to his first wife, Mary Ann Clapp Harrington. I know. Danielle: Nothing like dropping a few hints, you know? Jaden: So they ended up being, Victoria and James were married for 11 years, and she left that marriage too. She was like, you know, I just don't want to be trapped. really believe that her, wasn't a commitment, it wasn't her unhappy this time. I think it was really just her wanting to be free to roam and free to make her own decisions. And. Danielle: Yeah. She's a serial dater, you can't hold her down. Jaden: Girl, yes. And it was suggested though, it looks like to me that her husband, James, was really, I mean, I think he really loved her. I think he treated her well and he was pretty broken by this separation, but he remained devoted to her and he'll show up later in ⁓ some of the things that she does. He offered quite a bit of support, which was kind of cool, but fast forwarding a little bit on this one, he died like, tragically in a gold mining expedition on his 52nd birthday. Yeah, so it makes end of their marriage and all of that just kind of feel a little bit more sad. So as I mentioned, Chaps was a Civil War ⁓ veteran and so obviously this is post Civil War times and Victoria moved to New York City where she crossed paths with Cornelius Vanderbilt's leg of Danielle: ⁓ sad. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ooh, fancy. Jaden: of the Vanderbilts. Yeah. And as we know, Vanderbilts was one of the wealthiest men in America. he, like all these other folks, were very interested in spiritualism. So he hired Victoria and Tennessee, who I didn't mention earlier, goes by Tinny. I know. ⁓ He hired them as clairvoyants. And this was to help him communicate with his dead wife. So. Danielle: Mmm. ⁓ my god, cute. Jaden: he was a shipper of his wife. Danielle: He was a shipper. He loved his wife and she's gone and he still wanted to talk to her. I love that. Jaden: And but this was really this is ultimately very good for ⁓ Victoria and Tenny because they gained access. Yeah, so they got access to financial information and learned a lot ⁓ and were afforded opportunities that women were not Danielle: ⁓ god yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jaden: And in 1870, Victoria and Tennessee opened a new business, which was called Woodhull, Claflin, and Company. And this was interesting. So they became the first women to run a brokerage firm on Wall Street. Yeah. I know. Well, yeah. Danielle: What? This is quite a turn. Like, wait, now you're doing numbers? Okay. Jaden: Your reaction is sound because the press also reacted with shock and fascination. Danielle: Was it like, what are these witchy women? They're going to cast a spell on Wall Street. Like, would wonder, you know, because spiritualism is taking off. It's very popular in this time. People are buying into it. They're believing it. And then these two women are like, we're going to open up a brokerage. I feel like you'd have to assume that they're doing some kind of clairvoyant work to like, I don't know. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: This market's gonna do really well. should invest here. Jaden: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. yeah, the press was not happy about it. People were like, what? And so at a time when women couldn't vote or reliably control property, these sisters were buying, selling, and managing capital, which is baddie. Come on. Yeah. Danielle: Yeah. That's awesome. That's so cool. Jaden: At this point, Victoria is like, I've got some choices. What do I want to do from here? Well, she did not take the route of just being a privately wealthy socialite or something like that. She leveraged her success to advance political causes. And those were particularly for the rights of women, workers, and poor folks. So it's getting real here now. Danielle: ⁓ So she's a baddie and she's kind-hearted. She cares. Aw. Jaden: Well, yeah, yeah, totally. But she, she's doing this thing. She's working with Tennessee. They've got this ⁓ business that's flourishing. And now she's like, okay, now I've got some power and some capital and I can do something. So. As I mentioned, the press was having a field day, basically just tearing them down because what are these women even doing? Women are not supposed to do this. This is wild. And what is happening? And they're getting pretty bad reps, like the witches of Wall Street. Like you said witches earlier. That's so accurate because that's actually what they were calling her. They were saying these women were witches of Wall Street, and they were using spells and shit to make this all happen. But in. Danielle: ⁓ funny. Right? Jaden: was funny because they like the first American publication to publish the Communist Manifesto. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Danielle: Wait, what? Jaden: They were like, radical? I'll show you. Yeah, but the point was to basically defeat this campaign form to destroy them and bury their reputation. So they were just kind of pulling out all the stops as much as they could find opportunity to do so. So because of all the noise they were making, in 1871, Victoria became the first woman to speak before US Congress. Danielle: Okay. Wow. Mm-hmm. ⁓ wow. Jaden: Yeah, so her argument was basically, I mean, it was very simple. The Constitution guarantees rights to citizens, and citizens include women. And so therefore, in her mind, women should already have the right to, say, vote, for example. And Congress was like, get out of here. But even just the fact that she was standing there having this moment was a big deal. And. Danielle: Right, okay. Of course. Yeah! Jaden: She basically put herself publicly and visibly into the political conversation, and she was not using anybody to get there. She was just doing it. And so she was asserting herself. And so once she's there, she's like, well, I can't go back from this. And so they just basically dug their heels into ⁓ publishing more stories that were not scandalous, but ⁓ exposing. Danielle: Right. Jaden: corruption. And that was their way of basically saying, OK, Congress, we're just going to kind of fight back in our own way. So November 1872, they published a detailed expose on Henry Ward Beecher, who is a clergyman who had engaged in so many extramarital affairs. And wildly, he's the brother of Harriet Beecher Stowe, who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. Yeah, so. Danielle: Mmm. I was just gonna ask. ⁓ my gosh. Jaden: They went to battle with this guy, and obviously that was just like, she now was becoming not only influential, but she was dangerous, right? Because she's just willing to basically say anything and tell anyone's story and not hold back. Danielle: ⁓ my god, I love it. Jaden: So the press was like, ⁓ another field day, awesome. They were like, let's demonize this bitch. Danielle: But she's also part of the press. Jaden: Right, right. She's the radical press, like radical free press, right? And then we're talking about this conservative mainstream, whatever that looks like. they did basically everything they could to take her down. So Harper's Weekly ran a very, actually I think it's kind of well known now, but depicting her as Mrs. Satan. And this was to just, yeah, paint this picture of her being a Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Right? Lord. Jaden: devil, tempting beleaguered Victorian wives with this like idea of free love, you know, like, ⁓ women have choice. No, you have to be. Yes. And it was like not harmless satire. It was really more of a cultural signal that her ideas were just like evolving and not just controversial, but like threatening to people's spirituality. So reaction, swift. Danielle: Yeah. No, you do not. You must be married and you stay married. Right. Huh. Mm-hmm. Jaden: Victoria was arrested for sending obscene material through the mail. And as I mentioned, James Bled, he's going to pop back up. And here's where that is. So he and Tennessee were also arrested. So he's still around at this point. And critics raise concerns about censorship and government overreach. So there's definitely a conflict brewing here. But three months later, they were, or I'm sorry, they were acquitted six months later on a technicality. by that point, it. Danielle: Go. Mm-hmm. Jaden: There's just no going back. The damage is done. Reputation is ruined. Danielle: I mean, right? Jaden: They were acquitted on his technicality, but the damage was done. Victoria's arrest prevented her from voting in the 1872 presidential election. this point, Victoria is kind of like, OK, well, where do we go from here? And what is going on inside Victoria's head, right? So she. ⁓ Danielle: Right? Jaden: She continues to push the social contradiction and becomes an advocate of the legalization of prostitution. And yeah, she's taking this issue on now and viewed it as a labor and safety issue rather than a moral issue. ⁓ Danielle: Whoa. Hmm. I mean, she's right. Jaden: I mean, I think there's a whole bunch of things wrapped up into that, right? So ⁓ there is some story related to this about how her sister might have been held against her will in a brothel at some point. like, Victoria rescued her. But there's not like a full story of what happened. So I don't have a ton of detail. Danielle: Yeah. ⁓ god. ⁓ wow. Jaden: I can imagine that that would lead to her thoughts aligning with this thing that she's speaking about. So her beliefs continued to evolve, sometimes sharply over time. And later in life, she experienced yet another notable ideological shift. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Jaden: At this point she's like, I'm going full Christian. Danielle: Wait. Jaden: So she is making the leap from spiritualism to Christianity and, and this is just crazy, she starts exposing fraudulent spiritualists in her newspaper. Danielle: Okay. Yeah. Stop. What a turncoat. I mean, I love her, but also, what are you doing, Yeah. Yeah. Jaden: No, it's wild. And she took it even further by denouncing free love, calling promiscuity a curse to society. Danielle: No! What? Was she married, like, at the time that this happened? No, OK. Jaden: I know. No, no, she just was a complicated lady. And her I think it just kind of underscores that she just doesn't have like a static belief system. Danielle: I guess, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ for sure. I mean, what it seems like, and maybe we'll get into this, but it does seem a little bit like a lack of a static belief system and kind of chasing whatever bits of stability you can get, whether you really believe in it or not. Like she did the spiritualism thing. She was very radical. Seemed like she caught a lot of flack for that. ⁓ that then prompt you to be like, all right, I'm going to walk the straight and narrow because ⁓ Jaden: ⁓ huh. Yeah. Mm, mm-hmm. Danielle: It is the path of least resistance at this point and I am a single woman in the what 1800s like safer this way. Jaden: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think, she of going back to some of the things that occurred earlier, it's like she was just doing what she thought was right. And society continued to demonize her no matter what. So it felt like the safe path, or maybe there was an incident that sort of converted her over or convinced her that she was wrong. But. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jaden: I think that when people are under a lot of reputational pressure, maybe they're just saying one thing and doing another. Yeah. Danielle: ⁓ my God, yeah, right. That never happens. Jaden: Anyway, so let's get to this part where she gets involved with the presidential campaign. So here's the thing is she did not quote unquote just like run for president. She was actually nominated for president. And this was by the Equal Rights Party. And this was in 1872. This made her. Danielle: Okay. Yes. ⁓ Jaden: the first woman presidential candidate in history. And OK, this is funny. She selected vice presidential running mate as Frederick Douglass. But here's what's funny. No one told Frederick Douglass about this. Danielle: What? Stop. What? Jaden: The Equal Rights Party was not very big and it was not very widely known. So yeah, she was like, I'm going with him and no one gave him the message. Danielle: so they can just say stuff. ⁓ Jaden: yet again ⁓ and since that ⁓ the public was not ready for a woman president. Especially one who was like divorced outspoken and quote unquote radical. So she didn't win ⁓ but her you know permanently altered the boundaries of political possibility. So ⁓ there a lot to follow from that which is great. ⁓ So ⁓ there's lot. Danielle: Well, sure, yeah. Yeah. Jaden: packed in here. There's a lot of details I didn't go into, there is a little bit of a reveal here on how fragile it was when women stopped asking for approval and just started doing things. But I still feel like we battle with this. I mean, the fact that we still can't elect a woman president is crazy. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. ⁓ absolutely. Mm-hmm. Well, and that you still, maybe not explicitly, but like you still have to get permission to do or behave in certain ways, right? Like even the electing a woman president is essentially like permission from the public to lead. You know what I mean? Or like, how can you exist in the world as a... ⁓ Jaden: Mm-hmm. ⁓ my gosh, Danielle: single person or a divorced person or a trans person or a gay person, you know, like you need all of these different levels of permission. And if you choose to be on, if you choose or you just are on the other side, just the difficulties that you face. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think the other dynamic here is that she actually was wealthy. She made her own money. And so it gave her this unfettered power that society was like, what do we do with this? don't. And she's speaking out about things. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Well, that's super cool too. the money puts her in a position to be able to clap back on some of this stuff. Like not, can't just go spin up your own newspaper. You know what I mean? Like they said a bad thing about me. That's it. Now I run a media conglomerate or something. Like you have to have the funding to do that. So it is, but she was entrepreneurial, right? Like she did it herself. It wasn't just her husband's money. It was, I've been working really hard. Jaden: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Danielle: I'm gonna chase what I believe in, which is awesome and I love that message. Jaden: Yeah, and she's protecting herself because of all the things that she's been through. it's interesting how many weird little misguided turns happen in her story. And again, there's so much more that I didn't get into. it's like the modern parallel I see is she's almost like a wellness influencer before she has a brand deal. And she does all of these things. But then she flips on a dime. Danielle: Right. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ my god, yeah. Yeah. Right. Jaden: Her ideas didn't really end her career or careers. It was just the public shaming of it all and character attacks and. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Well, and she's a good pivoter too, right? Like when things stopped working, she was excellent at reinvention. I mean, it's, as you're telling this story, it's, I'm like picturing like a Candyland map of like, you're going through all these different forests and, and there are all these like little side quests that she's taking because now, you know, like you start as the, the traveling road show spiritualist, and then you, you know, combine that with medicine and ⁓ now I have a newspaper. Jaden: Yeah. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: now I'm involved in politics, so I'm giving back to the community, I'm running a brokerage. The amount of times that she kind of pivoted or reinvented herself is pretty impressive for the time. I mean, just in general, honestly now, to be able to do that, I think, takes a special tenacity that a woman is in some ways down on her luck, I guess. You know what I mean? ⁓ Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: You have to get creative with that stuff if you're going to survive. Jaden: Yeah, and it's interesting to be so driven by a system of beliefs or some sort of influence that it really drives how you ⁓ operate throughout life. And I don't mean just like, be a good person. But like, you really staunchly believe, like for her, it was free love, right? And she's like, I'm preaching it. It doesn't mean what men want it to mean. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. right? Jaden: It means I have rights in my relationships and I own my own body and control what happens to it. idea that ⁓ and sexuality was somehow vulgar and society shouldn't ⁓ considering that. ⁓ ⁓ funny thing about this whole prostitution thing is that she argued that sexual freedom meant the end of prostitution. ⁓ Danielle: Right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jaden: and that the end of forced pregnancy was basically the end of women's financial dependence on men. And so you can see the argument for legalizing prostitution. It's circular. It's really interesting when you think about the after and the before, and it's radical, and it's provocative. And what I love about her is just her ability to state these ideas that were Danielle: I mean... Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jaden: forcing people to think and argue and reveal parts of themselves that, were repressed and ⁓ people didn't to talk about that and she just did this relentlessly. Danielle: great. Jaden: ⁓ Danielle: It is fascinating. ⁓ I do ⁓ the dedication to her belief the lack of around speaking up, ⁓ think that can show up and work a lot. Like you just said, someone is ⁓ you know, presenting your ideas or saying it in a different way or, you know, however, like finding the ways to stand up for ourselves. Like it's maybe not, I'm not going to create a zine at work or something, but I might start being louder in a meeting, you know, like, or like correcting people when they say, you know, when they get things wrong and not being timid and claiming that ownership. I know we've talked about that before, like the quiet work and stuff. But the other thing that really stands out to me is just the sense of reinvention and like, Jaden: Mm-hmm. Hahaha! Mm-hmm. Mmm. Danielle: pivoting when she felt like she needed to pivot. And that feels so relevant today, just the ways that we're seeing. We work in digital and the technology space and just the changes that we're seeing that sometimes are kind of scary, to be honest, or bump up against at least my own moral beliefs or things that I think are important. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Danielle: then it feels very relevant to think about what does a pivot look like and how do you go about that confidently, right? Like, hey, I have amassed these skills. I can do all of these things. They are agnostic of an industry. How can I take them and put them into something else? Right? Because when we think about, you know, she's learning from a very young age, she's learning like sales techniques basically, right? Jaden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Danielle: persuasion, a little bit of psychology, ⁓ theatrics. And then she can turn that into being a leading spiritualist in New York City You know what I mean? So it's like that transfer of skills really stands out to me. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I didn't mention this, but when she ran for president, she was running against Ulysses S. Grant. I know. So like, her competition was cut out for her. Danielle: Whoa. Wow, that's a lot. You know, if nothing like she's just so bold. I love that. Jaden: She is bold. you know what, as I was reading through, I noted one thing. It was using defiance as a strategy. And I was like, ⁓ my god, I totally identify with that. Danielle: yes. That's exactly it. Like that defiant streak and like, gosh, yeah. Jaden: Yes. Mm-hmm. And I just, I love that because I think that's something maybe we do without even realizing sometimes. It's like, well, I don't like this, so I'm gonna go around it and it's gonna make things better even though everyone can't see it. Danielle: Yeah, I love that. rates. ⁓ my God. I also think it's something that we can like take back because I think it's easy to have defiance get rebranded as like bitchy or cranky or mean or whatever, right? But like it feels like that's ⁓ a thing we can own as a good thing, right? Like no, defiance is a strategy and I'm being intentional about it. Defiant on purpose. Jaden: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm Defiant On Purpose. with that, we hop over to our ruining the workplace tip the week? Let's do it. Danielle: ⁓ Wow. think we should. Let's do it. ⁓ My tip of the week is ⁓ right in line our defiant nature in that ⁓ I ⁓ want all ⁓ ignore ⁓ or the that come in ⁓ after hours ⁓ when we set on do not disturb or we're away. ⁓ Most things can right? ⁓ And ⁓ Jaden: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: set a maybe defiant boundary and honor it. That's it. No slack after hours. Like, maintain your boundaries. You know, and obviously people have different working styles and setups, but I think it's important to not always be always on and always available. If you have made it clear, like, this is when I'm available, let that be what it is. Jaden: No slack after hours. I love it. Mm-hmm. It's just not that serious. I love it. Thanks, Danielle. That was amazing. Danielle: It's just not that serious. So that's what I got. Yeah. And thank you, Jaden for the story. Jaden: Awesome. Well, until next time, good luck and have fun. Bye. Danielle: So it's great. Good luck out there. Bye.