Latest / The Resting Stitch Face Podcast / Turning Pain Into Purpose w/ Navi Hughes
Transcript
- Sarah Harding: Hello and welcome back for another episode of the Resting Stitch Face Podcast. I'm your co-host, Dr. Sarah Harding, along with Erin Sheffield: Dr. Erin Sheffield, welcome back. Sarah Harding: Welcome back. Erin Sheffield: We are here with a fabulous guest, Navi Hughes. She's a psychiatric nurse practitioner, founder of Empower Mental Health, and mom in a blended family of seven. She helps women build a personal brand and get seen because visibility is agency, and no woman should have to stay somewhere unsafe because of money. I love that. So I Sarah Harding: Yes. Erin Sheffield: know you have quite the story, Navi. Can you tell us why that last line is so important to you to build this whole business idea around it? I know you've got a history leading up to that. So Navi, I want to get right into it. I know you have quite the backstory. Navjot: Call it. Erin Sheffield: And I want to hear more about why you have this line in your bio. No woman should have to stay somewhere unsafe because of money. I know that there's some personal history here, am I right? Navjot: Yeah, there's a lot. Okay, let's start unpacking. so personally, I was seventeen years old. I got pregnant at 17 teen mom. So I was stuck in very unsafe situations. And professionally, I see so many women that are stuck in abusive relationships or toxic workplace environments that they feel like they just have to stay there. And there's really hasn't been much of a solution when psychiatry comes in. We're like, let's fix your meds. It's like, well, what's the bridge? What else can we do? I can't just go on up on your Zoloft and you fix your entire life and get out of this unsafe situation. It just doesn't work that way. And that's what got me into coaching. The next thing is like, how do I help you maybe give you some resources? But I can't give you resources if I haven't done the thing. Sarah Harding: Yeah, that makes sense. Erin Sheffield: So I want to hear more about getting pregnant at 17 and what life looked like after that. Navjot: Yeah. man. Getting pregnant at 17. One of the hardest decisions I had to make is at 17, do you keep your child? Do you not keep your child? let's just be honest here in my family, we're from India. I'm from India. And it was really like the craziest wildest, you know, one of those red Scarlet letter stories in town. And, It was finding out I'm pregnant to what am I gonna do now? My parents are gonna approve of this, but I don't know if I wanna give up the baby. So like taking off in the middle of the night in this 1990 cruddy Toyota Corolla and just saying, I'm just gonna figure this out and just rolling with the punches. I didn't know if it was the right decision, but I had this thing we've been working on. Make the decision and then make it right. but that's basically my whole life in a nutshell. Sarah Harding: Wow. Wow. Erin Sheffield: Wow. Sarah Harding: And so were you fearful that your parents wouldn't accept your decision? Navjot: Yeah, it was all of it. It was fear that they wouldn't accept the decision, fear that they would change their mind of like not wanting to, not keeping her, giving her up for adoption. Actually not just keeping her because in our culture, appearances matter. And I think I was just rebellious at a young age. So we have a lot of mental health issues in the family and it was just, you are not gonna... arrange marriages to someone I don't know in another country and I've grown up in, like I moved to America at 10. And from that time, my parents were like, we're gonna get you married. We're gonna find you a great guy from India. And I saw my cousins go through that and I'm just, whatever. I think in my little brain, cause I knew everything at the time, this was my, Sarah Harding: Yes, of course she did. Navjot: this was my ticket out. I think subconsciously, obviously not. knowing that, but subconsciously I'm like, man, I don't want that. So they set that scenario up at the age of 13 of like, we'll find you someone to marry in India, where we don't want to live and we don't want to, you know, like teach me the culture or be involved in the community, but we'll find you that person from there. So it kind of started this resentment towards the Indian community, the culture, just because of the bias of what I had through the lens of my parents. And yeah, it's a lot. My daughter's 18 now. She will know. Goodness, we have a lot of kids. We have a family. Yes, so I became a widow at 29 and I had two kids and then my husband had two kids and then we had one together and that's seven of us. I love them are adults now. Yeah, no, let me just let me back up. Three. Well, Sarah Harding: I'm like, who's not the adult? You or your husband? Hmm. Navjot: I'm the adult, my husband's in my house. Yeah, there's two. Okay, that's where I was going. You got it. So three of them are in Texas. They're my daughter. You know, she's in college studying to be, she wants to do cardiothoracic. Cardio, I can't think right now. Cardiothoracic Surgeon. Erin Sheffield: Cardiothoracic surgery? Navjot: Yes, yeah she talks Sarah Harding: Get it, girl. Erin Sheffield: Wow. Navjot: about all the time and you just, I'm like that's interesting. But she's just her own person so I try to just say do whatever you want. I'm like the anti, like you don't have to do go become a doctor, you don't have to become a lawyer, just but I do that I guess because she already knows she's you know she's on that track, she knows what she wants. So she's doing well. And this Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: is a writing joke. I'm like, you're not pregnant and you're not surviving. You know, you're actually thriving in a good relationship. She lives in her own, like in her old home. So she's safe. And I think in my mind, that was a minimal standard. Obviously I, you know, led by example on other fronts, but it's a milestone. I'm not even afraid to say it's just a mile. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: because you don't want what happened to you, your kids make the same decision. It's always this running thing in the back of my mind. So that was a long winded way of saying like, we survived, we're here, we're doing a lot better. And yeah, I could have never imagined this life. I didn't want the medical field. In fact, I hated the medical field because my parents told me I needed to go into the medical field. Sarah Harding: And here we are doing it. Navjot: Yeah. Here we are. Yeah. Sarah Harding: And so when did you so you were pregnant at seventeen and you left and you decided Navjot: Mm-hmm. Sarah Harding: to start this life with this man and how did you because you didn't decide right then to go to medical school, right? Like Navjot: Yeah, it was a long journey. my late husband, who was her father, I went to his house. My father-in-law was standing right there. He's like at the age of 18. I dropped out of college or no, dropped out. Let me go back. Dropped out of high school. I was like, I don't have to go to school anymore. get to be, know, just to get to be pregnant later. then my parents are no longer in my life. And now he walks in my room. He's like, Hey, if you want to stay here, you have to go back to school. So it was embarrassing. feel like Humpty Dumpty walking on an alternative school bus. And, but the interesting thing is like I finished before my graduating class ever did an alternative school. Cause you're motivated. Now you're about to become a mom. like, I could have knocked this out long ago. So. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Navjot: You know, I finished high school like that. I did get my diploma, fast forward a couple of years had passed and my late husband and I, we just weren't getting along. So we separated and I was like, man, what am I gonna do with my life? Like I'm making $16 an hour for an 18 year old or 19. That was really good at the time, more than my peers, but I have a child. Like, what am I gonna do? And this lady sitting there with. She's talking about her daughter. My daughter just went to nursing school. She just graduated and da da da da da. I'm like, do you think I could go to nursing school? She's like, of course you can. was like, my parents told me it was too late when you have a kid. She's like, you can go. So that started the trajectory of like just going at this, my own pace because I still had to buy a home. I still had to take care of my kids. like delivering a child and then graduating a couple months later, like did it twice with my second son. So it's, it's just those things when you show up, you really find out, like I could do this. I can. So rinse and repeat nursing school, bachelor's and then master's in psychiatry. And here we are in the entrepreneurship realm, which is the realm I wanted to be in in the first place, but it takes a lot of courage and self-trust to be here. Sarah Harding: It sure does. Sure does. Yeah, I agree. Wow. And so then you guys separated and then sorry, I love people's stories. This is my like this is my jam. Navjot: And honestly, I'm full of them so you can. Sarah Harding: And so you guys separated and then how did that go? Navjot: Yeah, so we separated for about, I would say about a year, a year and a half, maybe two years. It, I don't know. Time is so weird with me when you've been through so much, you're like, how much time has actually passed? And that, that's Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: how it was. So I, I left because I didn't agree with a lot of things. didn't, know, 18, 19, 20 people are going to clubs. They're hanging out on Saturday nights. They're doing all these things and it just didn't feel right, you know? I'm a mom, so guys are not moms. Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Navjot: They're just like, I'll be back, I'll go hang out with the boys. And there was a lot of stuff that just didn't fit right. So I just set that boundary of like, I'm not gonna continue like this. So I took off and you know, when you're doing better, you're at peace and you're kind of doing your own thing. People like to come back into your life. They're like, she seems like she's got it all together. So then we retried again and then we had our second child and we stayed together up until he was 29. But even within that period, we were still, we were so young, we never really matured. We were changing diapers before we even knew who we were. There's a lot of struggle, a lot of chaos. And now having, I had my third kid at, I don't know the age, it was either 30 or 31. whatever, old I was my last day, it's a lot different. So they all got a different mom, which is bad and good because they all got different qualities of, I don't know, resilience too. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: Because my first child, Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Navjot: she's a go-getter. I don't have to tell her anything. She was just like this bookworm. She just does her own thing. My second child, he's like an entrepreneur. He's like, screw this system. I want to go learn business, you know, that whole mentality. And the third one's just a wild child artist. He's just like, the world's just going to follow me. He says things like, I can be president. I am God. you know, it's weird how When you parent, they show up a different way and you show up a different way, but you never know the right way. it's, what are we doing here? Sarah Harding: That's the truth. Yes. Navjot: We're all doing this for the first time. Erin Sheffield: So how did you lose your husband? Navjot: Yeah, so, yeah, I just graduated nursing school and, know, at that point, picking up these PRN shifts, these call shifts, like, why don't we just book a trip? And we booked a great trip to Thailand. It was our first family international trip. all, my in-laws went, my brother went, and we had a great time. on the plane, were people coughing, masks on, I didn't think anything of it. Like, okay, we'll get a little sick, whatever, we enjoyed our time there. Then we come back and he's coughing and I take him to those, what do you call it? Urgent care in the dock in the box. Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Navjot: You know, they gave him the Z-Pak and the sodium medrol, nothing worked and I kept having to go back to the hospital. We found out he had H1N1, like his SATs kept dropping and like things just took a wild turn. So I had to keep escalating his care. He was in a smaller hospital. I had him transferred to a bigger hospital where they could do, are you familiar with ECMO? Like lung and heart bypass, I'm sure. And we got them all there and like everything just failed. It just, you know. DIC, just the whole nine or anything that Erin Sheffield: well. Navjot: could go wrong, did go wrong. And like looking back, I was a nutcase. I went through those OR doors. was just, like, my God, I was so unhinged and yelling at the OR staff and just breaking, you know, all those precaution barriers that I'm like, I've already been exposed. I was there. Looking back and reflecting on that experience, like, I don't even know what to make of it. It was, it Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: happened so fast. Like you're on a vacation, everything's going well. and get this. He had just been waiting for this promotion. Like he'd been working on for two years and right before he passed, he got the call of like, he's getting promoted. And it was like, cool for him. I'm like, well, at Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: least he got to hear that his accomplishment. But yeah, so here we are and I was thinking life is over. What am I going to do? And good Lord, it's 10 years later now I'm still here. It's Sarah Harding: Wow. Navjot: wild. Erin Sheffield: You just don't think Sarah Harding: Miss Wilde. Erin Sheffield: at twenty nine years old that the flu is gonna take you out, you know? And it's modern medicine, despite all of its wonderful things, sometimes we can't we can't fix everything and that's really hard sometimes. it's just in it's hard to even comprehend. Do you so are you like a big proponent of flu shots now? Or Navjot: Yeah, and my current husband, works, he's a nurse, he's a cath lab nurse. So I usually Erin Sheffield: well. Navjot: just let him stay on top of everything. He's like, vaccines, let's go. Like he lines up the family, like last year before we left Texas, I think last year, he was like, all right, everybody line up. We're going to go have a date at the flu clinic. Sarah Harding: Nice. Navjot: So yeah, it's, don't know. I mean, there's so many variables to this. Like we had our flu shots before. I got kind of sick, but you know how when women get sick, like your muscles can be hurting, you can have a flu and you're like dog tired and the kids, Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: everything's just collapsing and you're just like, I can make it if I can get up that step. So that's how I was. So, but you know. I don't know. Sarah Harding: And so do you think that because now the way that you're able to tell the story and the way that you're able to laugh and the way that you just have joy in your eyes, you clearly developed a lot of resilience early on. Because I know that it's been 10 years, but it's it's still like that's a lot, right? And so do you think that having grown up in the way that you did from immigrating at 10 years old? to getting pregnant at seventeen, do you think that all of those things created greater resilience within you? Or do you think that you just that's just who you are in general? Navjot: That's a really deep question. It's a great question. To be honest, I'm going to answer like a philosopher. I don't know who I am as far as this label. I just keep finding out who I am as I go. Like, I'm like, I'm this, I'm that. So I don't really say I'm this resilient person. I think I just look at a situation and I. my brain automatically finds a silver lining because when you're like switching from like this big traumatic event, it's like you're just grasping for something positive. And yeah, there's a time period like you're crying and you're going through all these emotions. But it's like asking yourself like, okay, what now? Like, what now? Like, you are you just gonna cry for hours and days? And then when you have kids that changes, so you show up for them. Sarah Harding: It sure does that. Mm-hmm. Navjot: The thing is just finding your silver lining and. you know, a lot of people that are like, look at your comedians. Give me an example. You've been through some dark times and then the laughter you see is just, I guess, a trauma response too. But I have learned to create the space of, okay, I can cry, I can cry, and then I'll get back up and then we'll joke about it, you know, hours later, depending on what happened. And Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: I think it's just accepting that that's the way in life. Life is, it's just ups and downs and buckle your seatbelt. Sarah Harding: Right, right. And I think too The way of the way that we cope with it differently is really determines our trajectory moving forward, right? And so, but do you sometimes I find that joking about it is a way to kind of push it down and not deal with it too? And so I find that those feelings still will bubble up a little bit later on. And you have you have to deal with them eventually. but I do think that that kind of maybe off gasses. some of the drama a little bit by creating that, Navjot: Yeah. Sarah Harding: right? Navjot: Yes. So when you think of you're watching, let's say you're watching a piece of content, right? And sometimes we learn through humor. So I also use that approach in the way I teach because when you can make fun of it, you can learn through it. So in the way I do psychiatry or teach big concepts, I just throw some humor in. And unfortunately, some of that's a little dark, right? But I got to get you to see light. So there's, there's a balance of Hey, like, can we talk about this? And then we can joke about it at the end, right? So can we process it? And I didn't realize that until I became a mental health professional, until I started psychiatry, until I started sharing my stories and actually processing those stories. So now I can retell the story without having a meltdown, but a lot of people cannot retell that story or they'll cry and they'll just give you like this, you know, little punchline and move on. And how I can tell I'm healing is, well, can I talk about it with my kids? Can I talk about it with my clients? Can I talk about it online? It's like this duality of yes, you can still have your humor, but can you sit with your emotion and just say it's okay to cry? Sarah Harding: Yes. Yes. Erin Sheffield: So how have you how do you think these experiences have affected you in your work and mental health? Do you think that that's that brings a different approach to your to your patients than you would have had if you'd not gone through all of this? Navjot: Yeah, I used to be, when I first started psychiatry, know, in our space, in the medical field, you don't share your stories. You just treat the patient, move on, and you know, it works like that until like you start seeing a patient, you start seeing yourself in that story and you're like, my goodness. So yes, I've had to do healing on my own, but I used to be embarrassed of sharing my stories. Used to be embarrassed of like, who's gonna wanna listen to that 17 year old girl that ran away from home? And it was a lot of self doubt that I had to work through. And now because I worked through all these things, I know that I'm a better provider. I wouldn't say the most, it just makes me a better provider because I bring my lived experience and the book experience. And when I combine it, it makes you more relatable. my retention rate is high. I mean, that does matter, right? Like it, because Sarah Harding: Sure does. Yeah. Navjot: that's, they bring in more people and the more you help and it's just, becomes a giving place when you can share your experiences and the book stuff. And Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Navjot: I feel like that's what I guess makes me, a better practitioner. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I'm sure they really appreciate that and just kind of the empathy and understanding that depth of grief or loss or anxiety when you're going through uncertainty, I think is really helpful. that shared humanity. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: Yeah, and at that point it doesn't really feel like, I mean, it weighs on you, but it doesn't really feel like work, work, right? Like when I have to go to bedside and go do a lot of things I didn't want to do. But it doesn't feel like work when you're in the session. It just feels like Erin Sheffield: Definitely. Sarah Harding: Yeah, yeah. Navjot: connecting with a human. Sarah Harding: Yeah, that's my jam. I like that. That's really cool. And here's a qu so my mom always said when I was growing up, she always I have three sisters, so it's just girls. So many girls. And she always said, be sure to do something where you can make your own money, where you can take care of yourself no matter what. And that always really stuck with me. And it, but it's almost like this weird chip here. You know what I mean? So sometimes in different seasons of life, you know, sometimes you're doing great financially and sometimes you're, you know, not. And but that's always there. And I and I appreciate it, but I also hate it. You know, because I always like, Navjot: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sarah Harding: wouldn't wouldn't it be nice to rely on somebody else for a little bit? Navjot: Yeah. Sarah Harding: You know, but it's always there. So how did you develop your practice into that, into making sure that women know that they have a space and not to stay just because of the money? How did you get into that realm of this? Navjot: Yeah, so that's a great point. are, a lot of us that are raised by ambitious women, we are raised to be self-sufficient, hyper independent. You need to be able to take care of yourself. In fact, I did that with my daughter. You can cook a grilled cheese sandwich. I don't care. You don't need to be the best cook. You can go make some money. You don't have to have the best job. You can get an education because You know at any point you might have the most awesome person in your life, but what if What if they change their mind? What if they're not here? What are you gonna do? Like you don't want to be left with that So there's always that that mindset of if I had to survive, how would I do it? And I think We really need those survival skills. Like we need them I you know, there's this culture shift or argument of You know, want my husband to take care of him, let him be the leader. But what if he can't? What if he, you know, it becomes disabled? Like what if he wants a reprieve, right? Like if we're, Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: if we're a couple, want to do this together. And I don't think, and also it's a two way thing. Like why should one person have to carry the financial burden? So it's not just this whole feminist thing. It's like, how can we help each other? We don't have to be the best. You don't have to be the expert financial planner, but can you pay the water bill on Tuesday? Like I forgot. Right. Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Navjot: so it's like, when do you step in and when do you need to step out? And so my daughter's raised pretty hyper independent. So was I, and I had to let some things go. Like for example, I love to cook. So, and I complained all the time that my husband didn't cook. This is, I'm talking about my grandmas. I'm like, I want you to know how to cook. And he came from like previous relationship. Like he didn't really do a lot of cooking. And I would want my onions different ways, depending on different dishes. A Julianne cut, a dice cut, a pureed, they were all different. And I would get really mad. Like I would really get upset if any was cut the wrong way. The chicken wasn't cleaned after like, ew, gross chicken. It would be a whole ordeal. Like I'm watching like where, so I used to do all these things and I'm like, okay. And I complained about not getting help. So I had to dial some of that back down. Like I'm like, okay, maybe the onions aren't julienne and they're nice. They're gonna taste same, same dish, whatever. It's fine. pull away. You don't have to be the expert all the time. think that allowed me to, all right. it's gonna be okay. Like you've gone through harder times. mean, you just, you know, change poopy diapers. You just graduated on stage with the kid, like just letting go of a little control is not going to kill you just over an onion. So I tried to zoom out so I can actually look at the situation of like, you know, did he wash his hands? Fine. Did he, you know, did he scrub it to my liking? Probably not. Sometimes I do go back in, but I usually just let him. lead and let the kids do their thing. It doesn't have to be 100%. I will take even 80, 70 % now. But it's funny, the table's a turn. Now they're doing the cooking, they're in the kitchen and they're like, well, it's stir fry day. The mushrooms have to be quartered, not sliced. Sliced is for it's not a food day. So he's more particular and the roles are reversed now that he's doing the thing because he's new to it and you know, he got. somewhat of training, he Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: wants to do it right. So like I care less and he cares more now. And it's just like this duality of like two of you can't care like at a hundred percent. But Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: I think just realizing that like when to step back and let the other person step forward. So both of you can develop a level of competence around the task and it doesn't have to be a hundred percent. So that hyper independence, like it just you know, dials back, the more you let other people do things, the more you actually can breathe like, okay, cut the onions wrong, but I just got 15 minutes of breathing time just to go do me. And sometimes Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: now it gets a little extreme now and just like, I don't care. Kind of like a scary, yeah, Sarah Harding: Call me when it's ready. Navjot: it's like a scary face. like, why didn't you care as much? Is this midlife? Is this me getting better or should I care more? Sarah Harding: Yeah, I felt that a lot too. It's interesting that you say that because I hadn't I hadn't really thought about it until you just were talking about that. It's interesting. And so then in practice, are you seeing a lot of women who I don't know. How did you how did you get to this space where you are helping to empower women? How did you get to that space? Navjot: When I came into psychiatry, it's as you know, it's about prescribing, right? Like, okay, I, we give you a pill to relieve some of the pain, like the medication, something, and then maybe some therapy, you know, to process the pain. then, okay, now I process my pain. You gave me a pill and now what do I do? I still feel stuck at home and in my job and like, I have no purpose. I'm burnt out. I am tired. What is more? Like. I don't even know if I want this relationship or if I want this job. So that's where I'm like, okay, what can I do to help more? I don't know. This is all I thought I was taught in school. Just talk about your pain and know, meds. So then I got into the world of coaching and personal development and all these podcasts and just started binging a lot of this stuff. And I'm like, there's a bridge. There's a way I can help you treat your pain, process your pain. And then maybe with coaching, turn your pain into purpose and you have something to look forward to, something to actually be happy about and not just a pill and therapy. And those things are important, but they're just the foundation. Like if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's just the basics, right? We want to go up. So self-actualization to the top. How do I get you to climb through those ladders is like working on you, what you want, what self leadership looks like in your household, in your job. And that's what coaching did. And then it was like, I'm on the internet, okay, now I'm talking to people in different life transitions. Okay, well, what can they do? What do they want? They're stuck in a marriage or they're stuck in a job. What's next? I'm like, man, how do I help them? Again, like, okay, maybe the fixes. being online. And the reason I say that is when I started my business, I was going around all these places and just handing out my cards. I'm like, why don't I just get online? That's a way to show up, tell your stories, connect with people. I have been giving more opportunities of being online, like this one, or standing on a stage or sharing my stories or being featured in Medscape, WebMD, just Just by being online, I didn't even have to pay for any of things. I just had to use my voice. And if I could get them to see that being online, personal branding, they would get more opportunities. They would meet women like themselves that are also burnt out of their job or their family or boredom, whatever it is. So it's like building that self-trust to go launch it to the universe because relationships don't look like what they used to. You know, everyone's busy. So you get so lonely. You get depressed and you don't find your way. So online, yes, you can get visible. You can have money, but you can also have agency over your life. You can have connections and Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah. Navjot: go to these wonderful retreats and conferences and meet people like you. Yes. Absolutely. And a lot of people Erin Sheffield: That's right. Doctors all in. February 26th through 28th. We're doing it for mental health. For sure. Navjot: don't know they have this opportunity if they would just pick up the camera or. rearrange their algorithms. So that was my way out in the modern world of maybe like helping them see which is really weird. know, hey, imagine your psychiatrist or psychiatry provider saying you should get online. You know, but it's building that. Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: I love it though. I mean, you and I are aligned in that way. I think we're both trying to get people to be seen and to come Navjot: Yes. Erin Sheffield: and show up. And you have sixty one point three thousand followers on Instagram, which I think is amazing. But I don't know, we also are constantly kind of commiserating with how hard it is showing up online and some of the challenges and How do you navigate those? What are what are some of the things that you think are the hardest part of being on the online space and how do you kind of address those challenges? Navjot: Yeah, being on this online space is really hard. But being stuck in the same bedroom, four walls, nothing to do, it's also hard. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: At first it was like, man, what do I do with my life? So my kids are old, they're grown, they're doing their thing, they want to have their own life. What do I do? Right? So I have to look at the alternative of like, what was it like two years ago for that woman and why I even here? So yesterday I had a content. have content pieces that flop all the time, like being online. That's what Sarah Harding: All the time. Navjot: makes it hard, right? Like you show up, you don't get the result you want like you did in school. You don't get the A. You just Erin Sheffield: Yes, that's so true. Navjot: have to keep showing up and getting Fs, right? So it's like, you're not used to that when you're like getting A's and you know, all your badges of honor, you don't get them. And the online space Erin Sheffield: That is so true. Navjot: is like that. So it's really building up. just to get told you're suck, like showing up and just, you suck, you suck, you suck, and you're good, and you suck, and you're good. And it brings us emotional rollercoaster. So last night I was like, what am I even doing here? And every time you go to rollercoaster, even in your life and your business, what are we even doing? And like, you just spiral. Whenever I hear those words on my brain, I'm what am I even doing here? I'm like, okay, it's a 10 minute session for a spiral. And I allow it. don't avoid it. The more I fight with it, it's just going to carry into my day. So I have to remind myself, what am I doing here? And if I didn't hit the analytics, what am I doing here? Okay, well, I'm going on this podcast. talking to my friends. I'm supporting them. I'm building my community. I'm getting my voice out. I'm getting in the reps. I'm learning how to communicate. Those skills are still like tools. So maybe I didn't get the tool. of a monetary gain, which is also a tool like money. But Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: I got communication skills. got leadership skills. got how to communicate what's up here to here out there and touch people's lives. So if we think of the other tools that we're also gaining in the skills, then you're winning every day. every time, Erin Sheffield: Yes. Navjot: like, down that spiral, I have to remind myself, what am I gaining? And that is the answer my brain is looking for. What am I even doing here? It's like, you are getting it. You are building a community. Sarah Harding: Yeah. It's and it's so important, right? Because I feel like the the problem that we see now is that the village has been demolished, right? And now we're all this hyper independent super mom, superwoman, super boss, you know, all of these things. And then we're afraid to ask for help and we're afraid to let somebody know that we need help because we that shows that we can't do it all. And and so but what I think is really interesting is This online space, it takes a lot of confidence and a lot of courage to put yourself out online. And all of these women that are able to do it then are creating this new village, right? From the rubble, from the ashes. And it's a lot of really strong, really capable, really confident women that are building this new village. And it's it's beautiful because finally. We have this space where we're able to find each other and encourage each other and build each other up, right? Navjot: Yeah. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I was talking to my husband yesterday. so I made a post and I was getting some really misogynistic comments from one guy who was trolling me and it was kind of escalating and it was getting pretty bad. And then one of my friends who was a man kinda called the guy out, and then this guy really started lashing out at him, and he actually made some pretty bad threats. Enough that my friend ended up calling the police and reporting it. And, you know, we ended up blocking this guy and all his comments and stuff. But I was telling my husband, and my husband's very anti-social media and is very much like, boy, maybe time to get off social media. And that's always kind of his message, you know. And there are things like that, like this guy is threatening him and his safety and the safety of his family. Like I'm going to I can find your address online and I'm gonna come meet you and then when you meet me, I'm gonna teach you a thing or two. Like they were like legit threatening communications and I get Sarah Harding: It's insane. Erin Sheffield: so many rude things that people say and then just the scrolling and the mental health. I mean, there is there are some definitely detrimental mental health aspects to it, but I don't wanna give it up because of what it's built. It has built so much for me. And one of the big things is just I've had a hard time. In my adulthood, especially after I finished my training and stuff, finding friends. Like I moved to this town and it took me, I remember people saying, When did you move here? And I'd say, I just moved here. And they'd say, How long ago? And I'd be five and a half years. And Sarah Harding: Ha ha ha. Erin Sheffield: I had to have the mental thought, stop saying just because five and a half years is a long time. But that's because I didn't feel like I was incorporated into the community. I didn't feel like I had friends that I could rely on that could call, you know, like I can find someone to go to lunch with, but I can't find someone that if I'm having a problem, I can call and cry. And I found that online, like I found that with Sarah. I found that with you. Like I'm able to find people who are doing things like I'm doing and are aligned with things that I'm aligned with. And that part has been so valuable for my mental health alone, besides the other opportunities that have come, that for me It's it's worth putting up with all the the junk that comes with it. But sometimes it can be kind of intense. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: I love that you share that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's both of you guys are right. It's a village-less motherhood right now. It's hard out here on the streets. It's really Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: tough. Because of the hyper-independence and needing to raise everything and also wanting to heal from maybe our parents' wounds and stuff and maybe trying to re- organized or whatever rediscover what motherhood actually is on our own terms created this like shift of like, no, I don't think it's okay for you to talk to me like our talk to my kids like that. And that created this shift. like we have an older generation that was raised differently and we want to pivot. And that's what's been the hardest for our generation is, okay, we are mothering ourselves. We are mothering our kids and like, who's going to mother us? Make me a meal without, know, a big scene like just let me be and it's really hard to find that in friendships too now where I guess now we're more aware of our emotions we want we have standards we have boundaries Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Navjot: Humans are weird. I don't know. find it like, hey, let's hang out and like, then you just ghost me or it's just weird behaviors you just Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Navjot: can't make sense of. Or it's like, if you would have offered me this opportunity and then just ghosted me. so I have things like that happen all the time. And I'm like, is this me or nobody just cares? Like what world are we living in is like where, you know, when we make plans, we can't show up. it, it. I'm new to this town too where I just, it's so weird. I'm like, what? We can't just show up to school and hang out and be friends. Yeah. So the online space. Erin Sheffield: That part is a hard transition for me at least. The built-in friends aren't there anymore. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: Absolutely. So it gets lonely. And to your point, the online space, even when I feel sad, I'm like, why content sucked? I'll go look at my friends content. She's like killing it. like. Let's go comment on our stuff. Just give you a little boost of something. But the community online has, I see what people pivoted in 2019 the way they did, even kids, why they have an online community. Because we lived in Texas and it's so hot, kids can't go out. And I see this now as I'm getting older and I want different things than the norm, that the community is online. I wish I had it in real life, but Sarah Harding: Right. Navjot: in real person, but then I'm like, would I really have time to go for a two hour walk and just go hang out with my friend anyways? Is it just not nice to just voice note or text? So it's, Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: it's where I've found my people. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, for me that same way. So I want to talk a little bit before we end just about mental health care for high achieving people. I know you work with a lot of CEOs and business owners and high profile type people. And personally I think it's hard for people like that. I'm including myself in that group of, you know, busy surgeon, mom. To give ourselves permission to seek care. And I remember before I started therapy, I was curious, but I thought, but I'm I'm not crazy and I don't have any mental health diagnoses. And so I kind of just curious, but what would I even talk about? But well, I kind of still wanna check it out. But then I don't want to take someone else's spot. And there's people that are a lot worse than me that like really need it. And it's hard to get in. And so I don't really deserve to come in. I don't really need to come in. And that was a big barrier for me. And it took a long time for me to go. And then once I went, I realized I have all sorts of diagnoses. Don't we all? But you know, now I'm like a really big proponent of therapy. Like I feel like everyone could benefit from therapy. But is that a common kind of experience that you see with your with your patients, with your clients. Navjot: Yes, that's a great question. for high achievers, they already know everything. They've intellectualized everything and they've created these systems. That's how they come in. They're like, man, but I did Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: this and I did yoga and I rephrased my thinking and I was having a negative thought. Then I turned into a positive thought and then I did the cold plunge. I'm like, my goodness. Erin Sheffield: She's spying on us, Sarah. Sarah Harding: So weird. How does she know what I'm thinking? Navjot: You have played mental gymnastics for three to four hours on how to reframe and rebalance these thoughts and then spirals, right? So like, look at how much time that's taken up out of your day to calm yourself down, to not go off on someone, to not think about that email that you want to send, but don't send and then want to send it. And you just, you could have done so much with that time. So for high achievers, I have to sell the concept of time and mental effort to them. I'm like, look, Okay, do you want more mental energy to do the task that you actually love? So it's creating that, hey, like that motivation, everybody needs motivation, right? So like for high achievers, they want time, more money, more productivity. So I have to speak to those pain points. Like, Hey, like, do you want to not spend three to four hours of your morning just to kind of reorganize your head space? Right? We can just process it here. You can give me blocked times and you can just leave it, just leave it. the tools and just go on with your day because you know you'll have a safe space to come to and let it all out so you don't have to carry it with you every single morning. And it also helps if we just, you know, add a little medication, you can try it. It's never forever. I never push a medication on someone. I even give them weeks sometimes. And that gives them enough autonomy to make their own decision. Like it's never forever. We're not gonna change your personality. So it's just giving them options. and speaking to what they want, their desires. Because at the end of the day, they're doing the things, they're making decisions, they're taking them to the meds, I'm not. it's just, high achievers are the hardest. They'll be like, just give me my Xanax and I'll go deal with this meeting. And I'll come see you in a week. I don't hear from anyone. So you're meeting them at different journeys. For people in the online space, they're more motivated to go get help because They can't think straight. They need to communicate. They need to get on these podcasts. They can't go to the meeting or host this event because they're mentally spiraling. So their thing is like, have to stay mentally fit or I can't stay in this game long enough to win because entrepreneurship is tough. So the people in the online space are really, really different than the CEO's high achievers that are working for someone else or some of your healthcare companies or, know, it's, really, interesting dynamic and that's how I knew I was like, there's gotta be something in it. Like they, want more clarity. And so I try to sell that to them, but they're still working for someone else. I'm like, okay, well, do you want to work for you? And then they'll back out. Like I have people that come in here for a Xanax prescription, which I'm not in love with, but we come up with a business plan for an exit plan because that's going to help them the most over. Just taking a Xanax because you don't want to deal with the president and the board anymore because they're so clueless to what you're doing, whatever your complaint is. So it's just meeting them where they're at with the high achievers. is hard. It was hard for me to get help because you think you need to be at this brink. Like you've got to have this big, huge rock bottom Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: moment. And then you, you know, or you have to be crazy psychotic to meet Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: how we created these extremes. What if we just. started off healthier, but if we just didn't need to take up three hours of our day just trying to soothe ourselves internally. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: That makes so much sense. I find I do better on a maintenance, like routine maintenance, mental health appointments. And sometimes it's every week and sometimes it's once every six months. But for me, I find I do a lot better because if I don't, I have those like crash out moments that you're talking about where it's like Think I'm gonna make it. And then I can't get in for two or three weeks. If by the time I get in, she's like, What did you need to talk about? And I'll say, it's okay, Navjot: Thank you. Erin Sheffield: it's okay now. It was really bad then, but it's okay now. You know, we figure it out, we can get through it. But I find when I'm on that maintenance dose of therapy, I'm not having those crash outs nearly as much. And it just is so helpful for me. I don't have to, you know. totally lose it. I can kinda stay a little more steady. So that's what I found. But I think we feel like we have to be having those crash out moments before we deserve to get help or before it's worth taking time. Like you said, but you're right. It it's less time once every three weeks for an hour than it is losing a whole day 'cause you just can't keep it together. Sarah Harding: Yeah. And Erin and I have talked about this too. How what an interesting world we've created and that you can't just have a bad day, right? People don't respect that. But you have to break your back in order for people to be like, okay, I guess that's okay that you can't see me today. You know, it has to be some like catastrophic thing that then, finally, people give you a little bit of space to to heal. You know, but it it shouldn't have to be that way, you know. And also, when you're talking about the medication, it's just really sad that we've created this space where, I'll just take this medication because that way I can mute my own responses to this situation that I don't like to be in. But I'm stuck here. And so I'm just gonna mute myself to get through the day and to get through the week and to get through the year. And that it's just really sad because these are. really highly motivated people that could do great things, but because they feel stuck, they just mute themselves and their potential to, you know, file up, file in line and show up every day to something that they hate. It's sad, right? Navjot: It is sad, bring up a great point. I see so much potential. I mean, these women, they are just killing it. They're running this entire corporation, like their playbook, built it, everything. And it's that inner belief of, I don't know what it is, that inner belief of like, you always need to serve someone else. Serve, serve, serve, serve. It's just the moment you take like any amount of space. even space for a mental health care appointment. You're a bad woman. It's just servanthood. I don't, you know, I mean, we could trace this back to long ago, but it's just, you always get to be the one serving. And that's the thing that doesn't, you know, take her out of her own position. these people, I don't want to say they have playbooks, have capital to go start what they want to. So it's not about the money. They have the time because she's already at 11 at night thinking about just can't do it or somebody else's voice. Maybe my husband thinks it's too risky. You know, you shouldn't go do all that. You know, you're about to retire. Just why do you want more anyways? And so like you're just sitting there spiraling at night and then you want to Xanax to cover the cost of you not believing in yourself to take action. Right. And you're just It gets to a point it's going to break. I don't know when it's going to happen, but sometimes it feeds over to and then, you know, your relationships or you hate the job, you storm out of the job. Something bad happens. And a lot of us wait for that breaking point because that's how we were taught. Breaking point hits, then I'll do something instead of listening to our body and saying, Hey, like, I don't think this is going to work. I don't think this goes like with my values. So it's all about serving somebody else. You know, we think that we just have to do and it's interesting how high achievers love to serve but not get served or not Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Navjot: let them take in the love. And even like a simple appointment seems like too much. Like being an hour just to talk about myself in like three weeks is too much. Erin Sheffield: I think there's still a shame component to it as well, which I think is really sad. And I've seen people on social media, someone was recently attacking me. Like, you're someone that seems like she's on Prozac. It's like, yeah, I was. At Navjot: you Erin Sheffield: one point I'm not anymore, but what's what's your point? Like, that's terri Navjot: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: what a terrible thing to say. It shouldn't it shouldn't seem like an insult. We're not like, Navjot: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: my gosh. You're on Lil Sartan for your blood pressure, you big dork, you know. Shouldn't it be that way? And I Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: also find Navjot: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: in my practice, either everyone will circle like yes on mental health, but I have to like dig so hard to get out what. And like depression, anxiety, something else. And so I just, yeah. Well, which is Navjot: you Erin Sheffield: it, or what you know, or they'll be on a big list of Heavy duty antipsychotic medications and yet they'll say no. And like, Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: why are you on why are you on these medications usually for schizophrenia? And they'll be like, for sleep. And you're like, sure. But it's sad that even in a healthcare setting, people are Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: afraid to give us that information. And that's important for us to know. Navjot: Yeah, it is. You bring up a great point. To be on this side of it, yeah. So I see people, let's say a CEO, they have great coverage, job coverage, everything, but they want to do cash pay. Why do they want to do cash pay? Because they don't want their job to find out what their diagnosis is, what their treatment plan is, so they'll pay out of pocket. And I'm like, that is so sad that you can't use your own benefits that you are so scared of your job finding out. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: even go get the treatment and it's just a sad situation. Also, like let's say the FAA, like I without disclosing too much, you get reprimanded for having a mental health diagnosis. So they would rather you to say you don't have anything so people won't go get psychological testing done, psychiatric tests testing done. And to me that is the scariest. thing of all, you are gonna let someone say that, I don't have mental health issues, why blame? Just because they said it and you don't want it tested. And even if they did get it tested, they're getting treatment? That means they might be stable, not unstable. So Erin Sheffield: Right. Navjot: none of it actually makes sense. It's sad Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: and it doesn't make sense. So I've like witnessed family member taking their life because of this job that they couldn't. fine treatment because they would lose their livelihood because when you're older your identity gets tied to your job and what is the job going to think and that's why my whole thing is so you don't have to be stuck in unsafe places. You have autonomy and agency to do that and they can build this pipeline. Okay you want meds you want to process like therapy do you want coaching and I feel like that's covered a lot of their the sectors that we struggle with. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Well that reminds me of an episode we had in the past with our friend Christian who is a pilot and he's building a coaching program for pilots anonymously who have a alcohol problem because like what you said, if they admit they have an alcohol problem, then they get fired. And so they're in this hard spot of having a problem and can't get help or getting help but potentially losing their job. And like you said, the most dangerous person is a person with the problem not getting help. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: but that stigma and, you know, I think we just haven't caught up yet to soci in society to help fix those and support those challenges, support those people in those challenges. We'd rather just turn a blind eye and pretend that it's okay and that's not helping anyone. Sarah Harding: My husband's a pilot, so I'm like very aware of all of these these things. And it's really interesting because it started in the military. You know, I when they Navjot: you Sarah Harding: are out, you know, flying F-18s around, you they do checks on them all the time. They do you know little communal like tribunal things where they check on your mental health, make sure that everything is good. and it's very like they they very much incorporate it into their daily practice. But the way that it's done is really interesting because as a doc, you know, they were they don't want to come see you. They don't want to come have anything done because if you give them local anesthesia, they're med down for 24 hours. If they had sedation to have a tooth out, they're med down for longer. and they just want to fly, you know, and so so even little things like that, but then God forbid you have a bad day, you know, you have some sort of mental health something. Because we all do. And you know, God forbid, because then you're med down and then you're having to talk about it over and over and over again because they want to make sure that you're safe. You're not gonna crash one of their multimillion dollar jets and all kinds of stuff. but then it's that then it affects them long term because then you get out of the military and you have nothing in your medical record because you never wanted to go to the doc, because you didn't want to ever be med down. But now you have all of these issues with your. body or with whatever that were never taken care of or were kind of brushed aside. but there's now no documentation. And so when you go for applying for VA benefits or whatever, they're like, well, you're fine. You didn't have anything wrong. Erin Sheffield: wow. Sarah Harding: And so it's just a really, it's just a really bad cycle that how does it get resolved, you know? Navjot: Yes, that's a great point. It is we are stuck in this cycle because the ones that need it the most aren't getting it. They're being reprimanded, right? Like if I put you in a war zone and doing all these hell of a time, you're exposed to trauma just by being there. So like it would make sense if I'm exposed to trauma every day, then maybe I would get like a therapy session. But it's it's that, you know, underlying bias that we have to correct because the resources are there. We could make the system better. Psychiatry does not have it all together. especially like in the military, those titrations are scary. But the only way we could do better is by eliminating these biases. even so, like to the point if I'm on medications, I like to tell people I'm on medications because if I hide them, then I'm attributing to that, you know, that silence, that bias, I'm not helping anybody. We just, why? I pitched a story as a patient myself only because I wanted them to know that there's somebody also that's like me that's in this field just for that reason. And I think Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: the more we speak up about, yes, I was on Prozac. Yes, I'm on this. It's okay. Like, and it's never forever. Some of these are just tools that you need to get through and some of these are forever, but it... I don't know why it's such a big deal is what I'm saying. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Well, I've had patients too with TMJ Sarah Harding: Okay. Erin Sheffield: pain that we've tried everything and then it's like, well, maybe we should try some medications. And one of the options we can try is an antidepressant and they get so, but I'm not depressed. And they get upset and they're like, No, I know you're not depressed. We're not we're not giving you that medication for depression, but it can help with your pain. And I'm on one right now for my headaches, you know. But you know, even that trying to just take the the medication for the indication. the stigma of that, it's kinda hard to get people past that too. So we've got some work to do. Navjot: It's so crazy how we're just so allergic to emotions that aren't like happiness, right? Or like euphoria, like, Sarah Harding: Yes, yes. Navjot: depression, anxiety, pain. it's like, it's furthering causing those issues because we're avoiding the emotions themselves. Sarah Harding: Yeah. And I think we can all agree that the times in our life that we had that we saw the greatest amount of growth within ourselves were the times where we were tried, where we were down, we were beaten down, we were thought we how in the world am I gonna keep going with this job choice, this whatever it is, you know, you just are in the bottom of the barrel. And but those are the greatest times of growth. And so if you're not ever experiencing the highs and the lows. How are you supposed to grow? But I think that we're all just stunting it because we only we we are only supposed to be happy, right? Happiness is the key. Navjot: Yeah, stunting it. We are stunting it, delaying it because I'm like, let me hit rock bottom so I can get right back up. Like, what are we getting into? Tell me the worst case scenario so we can go there and just get Sarah Harding: Yes. Navjot: over the hump because you know there's something waiting that's better on the outside waiting for you. That's what I'm afraid of with some of these medications, these quick fixes like Xanax. You're never really letting yourself experience maybe that breakdown that you needed to have to have that breakthrough. You just keep silencing it and it's not helping any. That's my opinion on these quick release fixes because they just, you just take them and they never really get the job done other than just mitigate that little bit of panic. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: Yeah. How do you feel about the psychedelic space? Because that's really becoming a large com that's really like seeping its way into where you are, right? How do you feel about that? Let me see. Navjot: Yeah, studying this micro dosing book. You just asked me, been looking into this micro dosing book. It was written by a psych NP, but I'm intrigued by it, to be honest Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: with you. I know there's a lot of people that are like, it's not science and it's not this, or like there's two realms of this. Some people are like the spirituality realm. So I live in Bend. So there's a lot of, I don't know. What are the words? Healers, healers is what you call Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: them. So they lean into the spirituality and cure psychiatry. They're like, what, you're a psychiatrist? You're all scientific. You don't believe in what we believe in. And I'm like, no, I'm trying to get the two to connect because it is a form of medicine. It is a form of spirituality and science. And I believe we can combine the two. There's so much cool stuff that's happening when you take a medication, it in... you know, obviously a controlled setting with intention that matters the most like intentionally and taking down your defenses. Like if we can skip 10 years of talk therapy, why not? Like why not do that with a medication that can help, you know, that anxiety that you feel when you step in the doctor's office and that posture syndrome when you have to. You know, have your wall up and you got the ego and you just can't break that wall to get through, you know, like what your thought processes, what your beliefs are. And if I could give you a pill that could help you, you know, a medicine, administer a medicine like that and help you get there a lot faster and break those beliefs, then why not? Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: Love that. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Navjot: I'm looking forward to Erin Sheffield: Well, thank you. Navjot: more controlled research on it, Sarah Harding: Right. Navjot: this is where we're at. Sarah Harding: Yeah, I totally agree. But I'm glad that it's actually becoming part of the conversation because I this whole this whole mantra of, well, it's not science. You have to follow the science. You have to follow the science. And like, yes, you do. But also science begins with questions. It begins with hypotheses. It begins with, you know, curiosity. And if we're not starting with curiosity, we're not getting anywhere. You know, we're just recycling the same old things. And so I think it's Navjot: Yeah, psychiatry Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Navjot: is one of the most underfunded and held back fields. It's just like, we got to start somewhere. So even some of us are just paving our way through because we don't have the funds. And by the time we get to it, we should have been there like 10 years ago. Like we're still here at 2026. People are scared to talk about a Prozac dose. Erin Sheffield: Prozac's a old, old drug, right? Well, thank you so Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Navjot: Yes. Erin Sheffield: much for joining us, Navi. This has been a really great conversation. For all of our listeners who may want to follow up with you more, hear more from you. Can you tell them where we can find you? Navjot: Yeah, on Instagram, it's Navi Hughes, N-A-V-I-H-U-G-H-E-S. Erin Sheffield: Great. Sarah Harding: Awesome. Well, wonderful. And Navjot: Thank you. Sarah Harding: you said you're in Bend, but do I'm assuming you see a lot of people virtually. Navjot: And Oregon. So I see people in Texas. I see people in Oregon. And now we're expanding to New York. Sarah Harding: Cool. Very cool. Erin Sheffield: Very cool. Sarah Harding: I love that. Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome. It's been really great talking to you. Navjot: Thank you both and let me know how I can reach out to you Sarah or help you support you on Instagram or socials or however. Sarah Harding: You can follow me. You can be my like seven hundred and fifth follower. Navjot: Yeah, I will find your hashtag or your user, whatever. Well, thank you. Sarah Harding: That's right. Whatever it's called. Whatever it's called. Yes. All right. Well, thank you again for joining us on another episode of the Resting Stitch Face podcast. We look forward to talking with you soon. So like, share, and follow. And we'll see you later. Erin Sheffield: Till next time.