Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #971 Pregnancy and Infant Loss with Lellie Lopter

Transcript

#971 Pregnancy and Infant Loss with Lellie Lopter · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers Now. On the Happy
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  Speaker 1: Families Podcast, we tackle some tricky topics from time to time,
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  Speaker 1: and today is one of those days.
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  Speaker 2: Hello.
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  Speaker 1: My name is docs Justin Coulson. I'm delighted to introduce
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  Speaker 1: to you today the author of the well known rhyme
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  Speaker 1: time books, somebody named lely Loptera. That is of course
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  Speaker 1: a pen name, a pseudonym, but lellly Loptera has a
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  Speaker 1: brand new book out that we really think is worthy
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  Speaker 1: of some discussion and some exploration in today's podcast. According
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  Speaker 1: to publishers who won't publish the book because of the
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  Speaker 1: subject matter, it is a new, flawless, almost perfect children's book.
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  Speaker 1: The book is called My Brother Born Sleeping. I think
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  Speaker 1: that I might struggle to get through this in because
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  Speaker 1: I'm getting weepy just introducing the author in the name
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  Speaker 1: of the book. By now you probably know what it's about,
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  Speaker 1: so I will just share a quick content warning that
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  Speaker 1: some families may have been through some trauma around this,
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  Speaker 1: or may have young children who may not understand what
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  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about, and parent advisory may be
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  Speaker 1: advised for our conversation about miscarriage and still born babies. Today,
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  Speaker 1: Lellly Lotta is a mum to three kiddos, one who
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  Speaker 1: didn't survive pregnancy, and Lely joins me. Right now, Lely,
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  Speaker 1: tell me about your family, particularly your baby who didn't
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  Speaker 1: make it to be with us.
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  Speaker 2: Now. So, I was very young when I lost my baby.
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  Speaker 2: I lost my baby, I lost my ovary, I lost
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  Speaker 2: my relationship all at the same time. And I think
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  Speaker 2: because of how I had become pregnant, people kept telling
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  Speaker 2: me how lucky I was, and certainly during that time,
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  Speaker 2: I didn't feel lucky at all, quite the opposite. And
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  Speaker 2: I went to pieces, absolutely went to pieces, and rightly
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  Speaker 2: so because I was allowed to go to pieces, because
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  Speaker 2: I was on my own, I was young, I was
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  Speaker 2: able to grieve in a way that was comfortable for me.
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  Speaker 2: But then, years later, when my sister went through a
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  Speaker 2: still born she had two kids already, and watching her
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  Speaker 2: trying to keep it together, when I knew in my
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  Speaker 2: heart how much she was grieving, how devastated she was,
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  Speaker 2: and trying to be strong for her, her kids, her
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  Speaker 2: niece and her nephew, it was unbelievably challenging to try
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  Speaker 2: and support her during that and I had my kids
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  Speaker 2: asking questions, and she had her kids, my niece and nephew.
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  Speaker 2: That everyone had a different say, a different reason behind
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  Speaker 2: what had happened. And my experience influenced how I had
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  Speaker 2: those conversations with my children and how involved my children
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  Speaker 2: were in that process and asking those questions. And children
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  Speaker 2: want to explore subjects naturally, they're just naturally curious little creatures.
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  Speaker 2: And when a subject is hard to speak about, and
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  Speaker 2: when you're going through that grieving process, then shutting kids
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  Speaker 2: down isn't helpful for either the kids or the parents.
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  Speaker 2: And this book was written as a way of trying
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  Speaker 2: to start those conversations as a family about when a
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  Speaker 2: baby is born sleeping, why that might be. It's not
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  Speaker 2: a medical tone, it's not a cure al. It's just
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  Speaker 2: a conversation starter so that people can have those conversations
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  Speaker 2: around how is the best to grieve as a family.
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  Speaker 1: Lily, let's zoom all the way out for just a second.
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  Speaker 1: How common is still birth? How common is miscarriage?
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  Speaker 2: So still there's over two million babies around the around
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  Speaker 2: the world that are born sleeping every year, and there's
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  Speaker 2: over five thousand just in Australia every year. Miscarriage is
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  Speaker 2: one of those statistics that's very very difficult to pinpoint.
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  Speaker 2: It's estimated it being eight to ten times more than
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  Speaker 2: what still birth is, but there's a lot of data
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  Speaker 2: around it. It may be much more than that because
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  Speaker 2: people suffer in silence, they don't seek medical attention, or
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  Speaker 2: the medical attention is it's glossed over, and the stats
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  Speaker 2: just aren't reported in some countries. So it's very difficult
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  Speaker 2: to get a global a global take on how many
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  Speaker 2: babies actually don't make it.
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  Speaker 1: I might just dive in here and ask for a definition.
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  Speaker 1: There may be some people who are listening who are
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  Speaker 1: not familiar or have just not encountered still birth. I
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  Speaker 1: think the percentage of people who wouldn't know would be
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  Speaker 1: quite low, but it's still worth just spending a moment
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  Speaker 1: and defining what that is medically.
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  Speaker 2: So I think medically a still born baby is one
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  Speaker 2: that's born over a certain weight or over a certain
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  Speaker 2: number of weeks. Off the top of my head, I
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  Speaker 2: think it's twenty four weeks. And Israelian government actually supports
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  Speaker 2: families to a certain point, but there's very little support
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  Speaker 2: for miscarriage or for early pregnancy loss, and there's now
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  Speaker 2: a foundation called Pink Elephant who do take on some
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  Speaker 2: of that emotional support for those families and for those
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  Speaker 2: women experiencing that. Like I said, I was so young,
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  Speaker 2: I had no support during when it happened to me.
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  Speaker 2: I very quiet, didn't reach out, didn't seek the support
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  Speaker 2: that I definitely needed. And it really wasn't until I
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  Speaker 2: had my recent hysterectomy that I even started to process
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  Speaker 2: that trauma. And bringing this book into the world with
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  Speaker 2: such a cathartic experience because it helped me not just
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  Speaker 2: to process what had happened to myself and to my family,
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  Speaker 2: my extended family with my sister and her kids, but
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  Speaker 2: also looking at how I could include other people. So
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  Speaker 2: all of the illustrators involved also have their connection with
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  Speaker 2: stillborn or pregnancy loss or I've got some of the
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  Speaker 2: illustrators are rainbow babies themselves. So rainbow baby is a
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  Speaker 2: term for a child that is born after a pregnancy
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  Speaker 2: or infant loss. And you know, one of the illustrators
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  Speaker 2: is her mom's rainbow baby, one is their mom is
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  Speaker 2: a rainbow baby. One has Annie's and Arnie's that they
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  Speaker 2: never got to meet because they died in infancy. One
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  Speaker 2: has helped a friend through infant loss themselves. Very recently,
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  Speaker 2: I've got people that I've had miscarriages, people that I've
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  Speaker 2: had steelborns. And when I put the call out on
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  Speaker 2: social media to ask if there would be any illustrators
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  Speaker 2: interested in helping me bring this book to publication, I
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  Speaker 2: put a question in that sort of survey asking if
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  Speaker 2: they had a connection to the subject and what that
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  Speaker 2: connection was. And I was absolutely overwhelmed with the stories
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  Speaker 2: of people and the connections and how how many people
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  Speaker 2: were affected by this just in that little pool of
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  Speaker 2: talent that were illustrators, and the prevalence are much larger
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  Speaker 2: than what people realize because it goes it's so unreported,
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  Speaker 2: and people don't talk about it, even amongst their friends.
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  Speaker 2: They don't talk about it.
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  Speaker 1: While you were talking Leli Lotta, I just quickly googled,
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  Speaker 1: and the World Health Organization indicates that stillbirth occurs once
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  Speaker 1: every sixteen seconds. That's what the two million plus still
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  Speaker 1: born babies per year equates to one every sixteen seconds.
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  Speaker 1: So when you say that this is happening a lot
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  Speaker 1: more than we realize, I think that that statistic gives
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  Speaker 1: us a sense of the enormity of this challenge. Kylie
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  Speaker 1: and I have a wonderful couple of friends who they
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  Speaker 1: had several children when they also experienced loss through still birth,
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  Speaker 1: and I still remember watching I thought they handled it
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  Speaker 1: so well. It's such a hard thing to go through.
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  Speaker 2: So what did you notice when that happened.
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  Speaker 1: I was actually really confronted by it. Initially, this was
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  Speaker 1: many years ago. I don't know if i'd even done
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  Speaker 1: my study at this point, or maybe I was going
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  Speaker 1: through my study experience. And they have They had a
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  Speaker 1: photographer coming in and take photos of them holding their
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  Speaker 1: precious baby. They've got a family portrait with the whole
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  Speaker 1: family there with I think they had maybe three or
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  Speaker 1: four other kids at the time, maybe even five, I
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  Speaker 1: can't quite remember. They have a large family and they
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  Speaker 1: were all standing there holding the baby. And as an
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  Speaker 1: outsider who hadn't thought about it from any kind of
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  Speaker 1: an empathic perspective, I found it really confronting and quite macabre.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, But as.
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  Speaker 1: I reflected, we walk into their home and we see
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  Speaker 1: a family photo of their family holding their baby, and
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  Speaker 1: it's all of them, And I think, in hindsight, as
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  Speaker 1: much as it seemed a little bit difficult for me
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  Speaker 1: to process as an outsider at the time. It opens
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  Speaker 1: up conversations. It allows the family to talk about their
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  Speaker 1: sibling who was lost, who didn't survive, And I can't
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  Speaker 1: help but think that it must be so reassuring for them,
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  Speaker 1: not just in the moment, but ongoingly as they have
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  Speaker 1: friends and acquaintances walk into their home and say, I
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  Speaker 1: didn't know you had that many children, and they have
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  Speaker 1: the opportunity to say, actually, we lost one. That baby
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  Speaker 1: was still born. It's so I presume, so healing for
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  Speaker 1: them as they process that consistently.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and often it's not until we've become parents ourselves
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  Speaker 2: that we can understand all of those nuances that you know,
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  Speaker 2: the grieving process changes when you become a parent and
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  Speaker 2: you include the family in that process. And just sixteen seconds,
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  Speaker 2: if it's every sixteen seconds. It took me ten years
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  Speaker 2: to be able to talk about what happened to me,
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  Speaker 2: and twenty years to bring this book out, and it
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  Speaker 2: was it's flabagasted me that you know, every sixteen seconds,
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  Speaker 2: and for that family, they're able to have that conversation.
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  Speaker 2: That's one of the things that really is recommended for
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  Speaker 2: stillbirth is to help the families grieve. Some hospitals actually
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  Speaker 2: have cuddle coots now where you can take the baby
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  Speaker 2: home and have that experience of bringing the baby into
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  Speaker 2: the nursery. And the facilities that are available now, and
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  Speaker 2: the support that is available now, those networks that are
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  Speaker 2: available now, it changes the conversation, and it starts a
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  Speaker 2: conversation so learly.
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  Speaker 1: The book is called My Brother Born Sleeping. Part of
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  Speaker 1: me wants to ask you to tell me all about
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  Speaker 1: the book, but I think the conversation we've had so
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  Speaker 1: far is sufficient to give parents a strong sense of
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  Speaker 1: what this is about. As part of you publishing this book,
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  Speaker 1: you've developed a special relationship with Red Nose Day. Why
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  Speaker 1: don't you tell me a bit about that and how
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  Speaker 1: purchasing the book will make a difference in the lives
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  Speaker 1: of parents who are suffering and struggling with loss.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely well, the book was just one part of the process,
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  Speaker 2: or one part of the project, and the project brought
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  Speaker 2: to together not just the physical book that parents would
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  Speaker 2: be able to access it and read to their children
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  Speaker 2: when they need it, but also a video which is
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  Speaker 2: available free online on YouTube immediately, so as soon as
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  Speaker 2: the family is put in the situation of needing to
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  Speaker 2: have this conversation. That video is there, it's illustrated, it's
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  Speaker 2: read by children, so the children that need the message
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  Speaker 2: are getting that message or getting the information from other children. Beautiful, absolutely,
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  Speaker 2: and it's the project incorporates both. But when we're putting
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  Speaker 2: it together, it was kind of an oversight that we've
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  Speaker 2: realized that this book might accidentally make some money, and
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  Speaker 2: that was never the intention. The intention was to create
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  Speaker 2: a resource. And then when we realized that it might
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  Speaker 2: make some money, then we've partnered with Red Nose to
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  Speaker 2: make sure that every cent from every sale goes to
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  Speaker 2: them to support them. They fund research, they support families.
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  Speaker 2: The work that they do is just incredible and the
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  Speaker 2: network that they have in the support that they provide
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  Speaker 2: to people, it's not just to the parents. They also
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  Speaker 2: provide support to families and they provide resources that can
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  Speaker 2: help people like yourself as a friend of someone who
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  Speaker 2: has gone through infant loss, so that you could see
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  Speaker 2: you know why the family might take that time to
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  Speaker 2: have those.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the thing, isn't it. Lily is not just
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  Speaker 1: for the people who are suffering. It's for people who
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  Speaker 1: are friends of those who are going through it, so
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  Speaker 1: we're not.
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  Speaker 2: How to support exactly. And one of the illustrators that
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  Speaker 2: was what drew them towards the project to begin with.
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  Speaker 2: They're from the LGBTQI community and one of their friends
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  Speaker 2: had just recently suffered are still born and not knowing
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  Speaker 2: how to approach those conversations or what to do, and
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  Speaker 2: being a part of this project, they were able to
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  Speaker 2: then start those conversations and create an environment where it
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  Speaker 2: was safe to talk about this subject, and those conversations
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  Speaker 2: they go such a long way.
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  Speaker 1: If people want to know more, where can they see
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  Speaker 1: the video and where can they find my brother born sleeping?
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  Speaker 2: So either the Lilyloto website or www. Dot the Knowledgecenter
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  Speaker 2: dot com dot au. And the video is just available
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  Speaker 2: on YouTube. And like I said, it's free, it's available,
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  Speaker 2: and it's a resource. So even if you know, if
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  Speaker 2: you know someone that has gone through a pregnancy or
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  Speaker 2: infant loss, and just send them the link and say,
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  Speaker 2: I know that you're hurting. There's nothing I can do,
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  Speaker 2: but I found this and it might help. And sometimes
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  Speaker 2: just that reaching out can be enough to start that
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  Speaker 2: conversation which will start the healing process. So we can
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  Speaker 2: get more people involved in the healing process. Then it's
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  Speaker 2: one of those things that it's never going to be
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  Speaker 2: fully healed, but being in a safe environment where you
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  Speaker 2: can talk about what has happened, how it's happened, and
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  Speaker 2: include children in that journey of healing as well.
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  Speaker 1: Lilylotta is the author of the well known Rhyme Time
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  Speaker 1: books and a new and really special book called My
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  Speaker 1: Brother Born Sleeping. All proceeds from the book, as mentioned
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  Speaker 1: go to Red Nose Day. Lellie, thanks so much for
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  Speaker 1: joining me on the Happy Families podcast to talk about
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  Speaker 1: this really important and not often talked about topic.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Justin.
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  Speaker 1: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you
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  Speaker 1: would like more information, our show notes are full of
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  Speaker 1: as much as we can cram in there about what
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  Speaker 1: Lellly Lotta has done with this book, My Brother Born Sleeping.
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  Speaker 1: Please visit our show notes for more or check out
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  Speaker 1: Happy Families dot com dot au for resources to make
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  Speaker 1: your family happier.