Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Select Committee Chair Brent Potter hopes an inquiry into vaping will lead to harm minimisation strategies that prevent kids from accessing the devices

Transcript

Select Committee Chair Brent Potter hopes an inquiry into vaping will lead to harm minimisation strategies that prevent kids from accessing the devices · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Now, the Northern Territory government has established a Select Committee
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: which is conducting an inquiry into vaping. It follows a
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: rise in school children taking up the habit. Now, I
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  Speaker 1: think if you're a parent of a child that's you know,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: either at middle school or high school or maybe even
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: before that age group, you will be acutely aware that
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  Speaker 1: this is an issue around the Northern Territory. Now, representatives
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  Speaker 1: from the Education and Health Department took part in a
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  Speaker 1: public briefing on Monday giving the committee an overview of
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  Speaker 1: those issues, and the chair of the committee, Brent Potter,
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  Speaker 1: joins me in the studio right now, Good morning to your.
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  Speaker 2: Brent morning, Katie morning listeners.
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  Speaker 1: Now, Brent, I guess you know for you you and
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  Speaker 1: O I wear both parents, so we sort of know
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  Speaker 1: that this is an issue amongst our school students. Says
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  Speaker 1: no doubt about it. But why has the government launched
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  Speaker 1: this inquiry?
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  Speaker 3: It's a huge issue and I think every time I
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  Speaker 3: knock a door there is a parent that says, you know,
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  Speaker 3: what are we doing about vaping? And so therefore we
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  Speaker 3: put a select committee to address it. I mean I
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  Speaker 3: didn't know, I don't know enough about it and It's
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  Speaker 3: been a really good learning experience going through this, and
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  Speaker 3: we're going to learn a lot more as we go.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to understand what is fact and fiction, and
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  Speaker 3: the Select Committee will come with some recommendations to Parliament
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  Speaker 3: in October because so often.
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  Speaker 1: Here, you know, young people go oh, but it doesn't
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  Speaker 1: have this in it, or it doesn't have that in it.
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  Speaker 4: It's okay, You're like, you don't know what's in it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I can sell you.
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  Speaker 3: The one misconception that people have is that that they
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  Speaker 3: get told this one has nicotine, this one doesn't. And
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  Speaker 3: what we found out even from the Department of Health
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  Speaker 3: coming before the committee last week, is some products will
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  Speaker 3: have nicotine, they don't advertise it, and then prior to
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  Speaker 3: twenty twenty, you could get nicotine separately and insert it
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  Speaker 3: into your flavoring. So they're still that kicking through the community.
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  Speaker 3: So you just don't know what's in I think that
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  Speaker 3: other jurisdictions New Zealand and like of demonstrated that you
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  Speaker 3: need to have some regulation around packaging if you are
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  Speaker 3: going to go down that path of making it accessible.
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  Speaker 4: So what is the scope of the inquiry.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, we've got five areas of the scope, so
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  Speaker 3: scale and trends for and including young people and children?
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  Speaker 3: What do we think the health impacts? And I think
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  Speaker 3: the jury is still out on that. You know, we
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  Speaker 3: don't have long term data to demonstrate like we do
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  Speaker 3: with smoking. We have official efficacy for helping those that
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  Speaker 3: are quitting from tobacco products, and there are a lot
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  Speaker 3: of people that make that argument. We have approaches to
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  Speaker 3: discouraging the uptake of it, particularly in our schools and
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  Speaker 3: younger people.
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  Speaker 2: And then we want to understand what the best practices
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  Speaker 2: are nationally.
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  Speaker 1: And so is this inquiry specifically focused on children or
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  Speaker 1: adults choosing vapes going to like?
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  Speaker 4: Is that going to be looked at as well?
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  Speaker 3: Listen, it has got a strong focus on our youth
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  Speaker 3: because that is the big issue we see at the moment.
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  Speaker 3: But by virtue of going through all five of those
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  Speaker 3: terms of reference, we're going to go through health impacts
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  Speaker 3: and adults and trends and you know, the transition between
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  Speaker 3: tobacco to vaping. So it will be all encompassing. As
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  Speaker 3: I said the other day, I don't think I will
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  Speaker 3: have enough time to get everything done. It's you know,
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  Speaker 3: you just you pull that string apart and your and
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  Speaker 3: it just keeps coming.
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  Speaker 1: And so I guess from your perspective as the chair,
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  Speaker 1: you know, while there are some concerns about people vaping
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  Speaker 1: right across the board, the main scope here is realistically
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  Speaker 1: for young people that are vaping and the impact that
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  Speaker 1: it's having on our young people.
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  Speaker 3: If personally as a chair, it's young people. But I
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  Speaker 3: really want to understand what we need to do around
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  Speaker 3: the packaging and the regulation piece, because I think if
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  Speaker 3: you get that right, you'll discourage the younger people taking
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  Speaker 3: up the product. Because I don't think we're going to
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  Speaker 3: get a definitive outcome on the health impacts. We can
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  Speaker 3: go with sort of anecdotal data like we can get
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  Speaker 3: that now, but to get the definitive I think that's
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  Speaker 3: not going to happen before October. So they're the two
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  Speaker 3: I'm very focused on.
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  Speaker 1: So should adults doing the right thing now be concerned
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  Speaker 1: that the inquiry could make it harder for them to
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  Speaker 1: actually access nicotine vapes?
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  Speaker 3: Like I said to a few people that are concerned,
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  Speaker 3: going in eyes completely open, I listen to both sides
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  Speaker 3: of the fence on the argument. I don't want to
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  Speaker 3: take anyone civil liberties away around the product. But what
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  Speaker 3: I also don't want to do is like they did
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  Speaker 3: back in the fifties where doctors were prescribing tobacco believing
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  Speaker 3: it to be the great product and panacea for anxiety,
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  Speaker 3: and now we've got all these health problems later on.
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  Speaker 3: I don't personally want to be accountable for that, you know, Like,
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  Speaker 3: that's not where I want to end up with the
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  Speaker 3: committee report. So we'll go in eyes what open, take
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  Speaker 3: both arguments to it, but take a really considered approch
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  Speaker 3: h because it isn't.
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  Speaker 1: Like it's an interesting one in the scenes that there
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  Speaker 1: are at some adults that vape and see it as
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  Speaker 1: being a bitter you know, a better alternative for them
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  Speaker 1: than smoking everyday cigarettes, so cheaper alternative for them, and
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  Speaker 1: maybe even a way for them.
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  Speaker 4: To get off the cigarettes.
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  Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, you've got this real
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  Speaker 1: issue now with young people who just do not see
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  Speaker 1: it as being dangerous in any way, shape or form.
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  Speaker 3: No, exactly right, And I think this is where we've
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  Speaker 3: landed on this and why we're doing it, because there
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  Speaker 3: are people that swear by it and say that has
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  Speaker 3: helped them transition from smoking. And I know people like that,
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  Speaker 3: and actually yesterday when I was door knocking, a young
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  Speaker 3: lady walk by me and I noticed the vaporizer in
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  Speaker 3: my stuff, and he goes, don't do it? But I asked,
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  Speaker 3: and I said, can I ask you a couple of questions?
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  Speaker 3: And I said to her, you had you smoke before?
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  Speaker 3: And she said yes, I had. And I said, do
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  Speaker 3: you still smoke now, which is what they call duel use,
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  Speaker 3: where you're vaping and smoking. She says, no, I don't.
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  Speaker 3: And I said to her, do you think you were
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  Speaker 3: to transition from tobacco with that? And she said no,
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  Speaker 3: I don't. Now that's one individual, but you can see
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  Speaker 3: it throughout the community, and it's an issue.
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  Speaker 2: We've got to talk about it.
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  Speaker 1: So tell me about some of the key takeaways as
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  Speaker 1: well from the Education and the Health department briefing that
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  Speaker 1: you had earlier in the week.
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  Speaker 3: So the Department of Education, mine was a pretty straight
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  Speaker 3: It was pretty straightforward. They're treating it like any illicit
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  Speaker 3: substance in the schools. They said they've seen an increase
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  Speaker 3: in the schools of it, and that comes down the
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  Speaker 3: way this is marketed like it is absolutely marketed at
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  Speaker 3: young people. You know, you can't deny that the way
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  Speaker 3: that we're doing flavorings, the colorings of the systems, the
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  Speaker 3: way all of it is marketed for young people. They
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  Speaker 3: treat it the same as illicit drugs. They are having
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  Speaker 3: issues in the toilets and you know, when I was
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  Speaker 3: at school, kids were smoking in the toilets, you know,
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  Speaker 3: and it's always been an issue. They're looking at alternative
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  Speaker 3: methods around vape detectors like you have smoke detectors, but
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  Speaker 3: they're quite expensive. I know Darwin Hei has been looking
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  Speaker 3: at that as a school board previously, and there's other
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  Speaker 3: schools I've spoke in the same thing. They're looking at
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  Speaker 3: around how you can detect it. That was what they
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  Speaker 3: were more concerned. I've treated it the same and then
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  Speaker 3: I work with Department of Health around the health impacts.
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  Speaker 3: And then Department of Health was really the bigger sort
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  Speaker 3: of department that came in and gave us a better understanding.
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  Speaker 3: And I think for your listeners they need to understand
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  Speaker 3: you can't in Australia pre twenty twenty, like I said,
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  Speaker 3: you get nicotine and you could insert it into the
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  Speaker 3: flavoring yourself, but as of October twenty twenty one, you
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  Speaker 3: need a doctor's prescription and then to your pharmacist to
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  Speaker 3: get nicotine infuse vaporizes. So I didn't quite understand how
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  Speaker 3: that was playing out. I also didn't understand the health
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  Speaker 3: impacts that nicotine purely on young people has, you know,
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  Speaker 3: an increase an anxiety and depression on young adults. We
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  Speaker 3: have a problem post COVID with anxiety and depression throughout
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  Speaker 3: our community. We don't want to be exacerbating that anymore.
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  Speaker 1: So the thing is though, with our young people. Even
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  Speaker 1: though you know, even though it is harder to access
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  Speaker 1: that nicotine, kids are still getting their hands on the
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  Speaker 1: vapes and we actually don't know exactly what is in
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  Speaker 1: those vapes as it is, or the damage that it
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  Speaker 1: could be doing to their bodies.
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  Speaker 3: Luarly, and you can get it from international so you
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  Speaker 3: can order it through Amazon and eBay. And at the
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  Speaker 3: moment it's illegal to import the nicotine part through the
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  Speaker 3: Australian federal government, but the non nicotine vaporizers can still
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  Speaker 3: make their way in. I mean, like anything, is difficult
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  Speaker 3: for them to police and identify what's a non nicotine
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  Speaker 3: and what is a nicotine because there's no packaging. We
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  Speaker 3: don't have any regulation around packaging.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the really difficult part. So from
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  Speaker 1: what you've been told obviously from education, there is an
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  Speaker 1: increase in the number of kids that are that are
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  Speaker 1: vaping at school. Tell me, though, did the health Department
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  Speaker 1: indicate that children could be using vapes that do contain nicotine?
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  Speaker 3: That's what they're saying that you know, well, there's no
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  Speaker 3: data to confirm or deny, But what they're saying is
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  Speaker 3: when you don't know what's in the product and they
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  Speaker 3: don't label it, and when they've done random testing on
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  Speaker 3: some previously across other jurisdictions, they found nicotine in the products,
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  Speaker 3: but other hard metals that they weren't aware of. So
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  Speaker 3: when you're talking about heating and heating, you're talking about
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  Speaker 3: heating a mental element and then putting a fluid over
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  Speaker 3: the top of it, which we don't know what happens
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  Speaker 3: at that temperature to that product. So there's just not
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  Speaker 3: enough understanding of the materials and the substances going into
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  Speaker 3: the fluid.
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  Speaker 1: Look anecdotally as well, I guess from my perspective, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I'm being told that kids as young and as.
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  Speaker 4: Ten and eleven are vaping.
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  Speaker 1: You know, from what you've heard from the Education Department.
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  Speaker 1: So far are you hearing similar or you know, what
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  Speaker 1: do you guys being told the ages?
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  Speaker 3: He did say it's primarily middle and high school, but
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  Speaker 3: I mean, like anything, I wouldn't be surprised that there
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  Speaker 3: are kids that age getting access to it. And same
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  Speaker 3: with smoking. You know, we see that as a big
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  Speaker 3: issue throughout the territory.
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  Speaker 1: So talk me through how just with the nicotine potentially
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  Speaker 1: being in some of those vapes that the kids are
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  Speaker 1: getting their hands on, how is it possible given the
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  Speaker 1: fact that the federal government have got these regulations around
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  Speaker 1: nicotine vaping products.
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's like anything.
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  Speaker 3: You can go on eBay and you can buy an
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: item and get it sent to you, and it's just
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  Speaker 3: running the gaulet through customs and border force in some aspects, but.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of it's made overseas in China.
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  Speaker 3: The US has a regulation around what they've regulated their product,
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  Speaker 3: around packaging and how they're made in the standard, so
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  Speaker 3: you know, if you're getting one made for the US,
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  Speaker 3: as I found out, it's regulated to their stand and
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: not necessarily ours. And as some people would know, our
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: gym supplements compared to the US regulations are very different.
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  Speaker 3: And what we can and can't have in it, and
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  Speaker 3: people have been caught out before there. So this is
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  Speaker 3: why it's so important to look at how we're going
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  Speaker 3: to regulate if we go down that path around what's
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: inside and the plane packaging and the packaging requirements.
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  Speaker 1: So what's the process now? Is there going to be
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  Speaker 1: public hearings?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So we've asked u submissions public submission. They'll close
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: on the twenty sixth of May, and they've written public
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: submissions and i'd encourage everyone that has a vested interest
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  Speaker 3: in this to put one in.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 3: We've gone to all the schools as well all the departments,
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  Speaker 3: and we've got a lift to sort of peak bodies
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: that we've engaged with, and then we'll do a bunch
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: of public hearings that we'll invite people to come and
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: speak to as depending on those submissions, we're looking at
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: potentially traveling down to canber because a lot of the
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: head officers for the organizations that we need to talk
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: to are in Canberra.
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  Speaker 1: Yep.
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  Speaker 3: There was a committee, a parliamentary committee done on this
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  Speaker 3: in twenty twenty. We can go and talk to them
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  Speaker 3: about their reports and sort of get a better understanding
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  Speaker 3: of where they landed. The best bit about this from
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  Speaker 3: my perspective is a lot of work's been done from
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: other jurisdictions that I can draw on, So I'm not.
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  Speaker 2: Starting from a clean slate. I've draw a lot of people.
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  Speaker 3: It just means a lot of reading, which is great,
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  Speaker 3: and then from there we can target who we bring
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: before the committee.
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  Speaker 1: Now, if there are people that do want to make
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: a submission, is there a way that they.
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: Can do that?
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, if they go to the anti gunment were if
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: you just type in NT select Committee e Cigarettes, it'll
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: come up with all the details. Or you can just
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: go on my website on my Facebook and it's there
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: as well for people to get ahold of.
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  Speaker 1: I know it's very early days and obviously we've got
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: to go through the whole process. But where do you
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: envisage that this could end up? I mean, could we
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: wind up in a situation where we're vaping span in
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. I mean where do you think we
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: could wind up here?
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  Speaker 3: Listen, I think at the moment, just server I understands
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: to to purchase it you need it, or to stock
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: it and say that you need to have an NT
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: license like an tobacco outlet, you need to be eighteen
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  Speaker 3: to go to, say, the vapor store, vapor vapor store
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  Speaker 3: in prep But where one quote that has resonated me
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: from the Federal government's inquiry was from the Threatic Society
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: of Australia and the Lung Foundation, and I'll quote it.
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  Speaker 3: If there is a suspected risk of harm and scientific
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: information is lacking such that there is an absence of
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: scientific consensus, the burden of proof falls to the person
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: wanting to progress the issue. And so my point is
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: that when I don't know enough of the data, I
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: should be taking a precautionary approach to the harmonimization. And
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: that's what we don't the currently You're having to be
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: eighteen to access it, so that the question is how
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: do I stop it getting into the hands of young kids.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: And so that's the approach I'm sort of taking with
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: a family of four. You know, I don't want them
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: to start taking using vaporizers when they've never been on tobacco.
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  Speaker 1: Before, and I reckon the really hard thing is is
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: it is a real educative approach as well for young people,
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  Speaker 1: like having that discussion with the kids about the harm
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that it can do to your body. But when a
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: lot of that's largely unknown at this point in time,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: it's you know, it is very much like I've got
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: friends who are nurses, family members who are nurses who
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: are saying to me, it's not good for them. No
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: matter what, it's not going to be good for them.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: So you're sort of passing that message on. But it
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: would be good to actually have factual knowledge to be
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: able to educate kids.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: And in the absence of that, you know, you want
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: to take a precautionary approach for people that are smoke
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: as I completely understand why they would transition to it
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: to get off the smokes as an alternative. Where it
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: does genuinely concern me is people that are dual use,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: so that will continue to do tobacco and vaporizers. And
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: the other one I'm concerned with is those that have
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: never smoked tobacco before in their life or a tobacco
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: product going from a vaporizer under the cigarettes. You know,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: So if it is purely used as a transition, I
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: think that's a really safe place to be in. But
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: if it's bringing people as a gateway, as the partner
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: Health said, onto other substances and that's a concern.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Hey, before I let you go, I understand this morning, unfortunately,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: there's been some pretty horrendous sort of hate crime or
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: hate spray painted messages in your electro this morning.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got a consider constituent walking their dog that
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: just said some individual's gone and spray painted some letterboxes,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: which can only be described as hate crime in writing,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: which is just disgusting and abhorrent to be honest, and
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to give that person time a day.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: So we've gone out and sprayed it and it's gone now.
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: But for those that did see it, I do apologize
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: that your kids may have had to see it on
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: the way to school, and I hope we get that
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: individual that did it.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: So you sorted it out yourself.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: Well, I came into you. But the stut my staff member,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: we went out this morning. He's gone and got spray painting,
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: spray painted, and then the body corporate's going to go
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: and paint the wall in the right color. So it's
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: gone and it's on the fe it's been removed.
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good to hear well, Brent Potter. We've got your
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: back in tomorrow morning as well. For the week that was.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: I think I.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: Feel like I do one day every time before week
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: there was, and then you get me.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: For a week that was excellent. We're all right with that, mate.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: We'll catch up with you tomorrow