Latest / Motherhood Alliance Podcast / What’s Normal in Breastfeeding (And What’s Not) w/ Serenity Mason | The Milk Grove
Transcript
- Andrea Renkas: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Motherhood Alliance podcast. We are here with Serenity Mason from the Milk Grove. Welcome back Serenity. Britney: Hi, we are Brit and Drea from motherhoodalliance.com and we are excited to welcome you to a new three episode series with Serenity a nurse, international board certified lactation consultant, certified postpartum doula, certified postpartum transition coach, and the founder of the Milk Grove. With over 10 years of experience of supporting high risk pregnancies, caring for premature and medically complex infants in the NICU. Andrea Renkas: ⁓ We're super excited to talk to you in this the second episode about breastfeeding you are an IV CLC and you have a lot of experience in that and as well as being a NICU nurse and transitional coach all these things for postpartum women pre and postpartum women. If you guys haven't listened to the first episode we talked a lot about Serenity's journey ⁓ Britney: and providing lactation support, Serenity's mission is to create a softer and more supported landing for new families. At the Milk Grove, she offers perinatal education classes that span from conception to postpartum, breastfeeding basics, in-home postpartum and lactation support, respite care, a NICU transition program, and even herbal tea blends and topical products Andrea Renkas: ⁓ helping babies in the NICU and preparing for that. So if that's some interest to you, definitely take a listen to that. Otherwise, in this episode, we're going to be talking about breastfeeding and breastfeeding with confidence. I guess the first thing I want to ask Serenity is like, when families get pregnant, you know, they, they start thinking about all the baby things, but how often do parents really think about breastfeeding, right? And Britney: Outside of supporting families, Serenity enjoys sunshine walks, gardening, herbalism, Curling Up With a Good Book and Spending Time Outside, all with her husband, two kids, dogs, and chickens. I'm excited for you to dive into this in our episode, Serenity. This conversation is going to be packed with insight and encouragement for anyone navigating pregnancy, postpartum, feeding journeys, NICU transitions, or anything else in this season of life. So we're excited to dive into today's conversation. Andrea Renkas: How can they actually prepare before baby actually arrives? Serenity Mason: From my experience, a lot of families go into with the expectation that they're just gonna latch their baby on ⁓ everything's gonna work out beautifully. They don't prepare or educate themselves for what goes into being successful with breastfeeding and how much education they truly need beforehand. Andrea Renkas: can relate to that as well, especially with my first one. thought that, you know, it's an, I thought this is natural. This should just work out, right? He up being three weeks early ⁓ and tiny little mouth and we had to use a nipple shield and I felt like ashamed with that and like, is he ever gonna latch? And it was a hard, hard time. So I can definitely relate to what you're talking about there. you actually provide a course to help families ⁓ with learning how to breastfeed or what the expectations might be, how prepare before they actually have their babies. Is that right? Serenity Mason: Yes, you're right. I offer a breastfeeding basics course, which is really anything basic, where we cover appropriate expectations, breast physiology, and ⁓ how set you up for success with appropriate expectations following delivery for becoming successful with breastfeeding your baby. Andrea Renkas: awesome. So I know for me, I had a I did have an IV CLC friend who kind of coached me through some things after I had him, which just such a blessing. And I know that that's what I would always recommend for other moms to who kind of are having that discomfort feeling like having issues. So I guess what's what are some? ⁓ Like if you're breastfeeding and you're just like not sure what's going on or if you're starting to feel like you have sore nipples or just hurt so bad or if there's clicking like can you go through the different kinds of things that ⁓ moms might support in and how you might help them? Serenity Mason: Yeah, they're something that is so natural, it's definitely not easy. And I think every mom deserves that support initially and their breastfeeding journey, because ⁓ new come up. The baby is transitioning. They're learning how to use all these ⁓ new oral that they've been provided with that they ⁓ don't how to use. and they need to learn how to use all of those in synchronicity to be able to effectively feed at the breast. it feel a little ⁓ the sensitive area gets used this ⁓ additional friction and and manipulation. There might be little of discomfort there, which can be normal. Pain, ⁓ pinching, ⁓ not normal. I don't want any mom going into breastfeeding with the expectation that it's going to be painful. going to have blisters, bruising, cracks, bleeding, that is not normal, but slight discomfort the first week is especially for the first time, ⁓ again, that's such a sensitive area that needs to get used to all this ⁓ extra However, as baby learns how to use all of these muscles more effectively, the more practice and exposure they get, the more effective they'll become with breastfeeding, the more comfortable it'll become as they get used to using and becoming more effective at breast. It should not be painful anymore after that, at least first week. And I don't want to say painful because it might be a little uncomfortable initially, but that uncomfortableness should start to subside within that first week. Britney: I feel like when I took a breastfeeding class to the hospital with my first and I feel like I remember them telling me breastfeeding should not hurt, which you know, like you're saying there really shouldn't be pain pain or like a pinching feeling, ⁓ but ⁓ there can be discomfort. so I went into it being like, ⁓ it's going to just be easy. And it was not like even during shared about her experience. Serenity Mason: It's rarely ever easy. Britney: Yeah, my son, he had a tongue tie and so we didn't really know about that stuff then. He's 10 now. But I cried at every feeding for probably the f- I swear it was the first three weeks. Like I don't know how I didn't give up because it was so right, right. But- Serenity Mason: And that's not normal. Britney: I also didn't know who to turn to at the time. I appreciate how your honesty here of like, okay, it's not going to be perfect because that's kind of the mindset I went into it with. What were some of your experiences Serenity? Because I know in our first episode you shared that you did have a baby that was in the NICU for a bit and then your other one was much different experience. What were your breastfeeding for yourself? Serenity Mason: My 36 weeker actually he was not in the NICU, but he was born premature. was born at 36 weeks and think it was a mix of having the hat NICU nurse ⁓ the ⁓ time who just doesn't know what to expect. And ⁓ We tried breastfeeding looking back at it in hindsight. He actually was doing quite well considering he was born early. He was doing better than what I would say most 36 week infants do at breast. But again, not having the appropriate expectations being a first time mom. I had support, but I still just didn't know what I know now. I ended up exclusively breastfeed or exclusively pumping for him for 11 months. Andrea Renkas: Oof. Serenity Mason: Looking back on it, I wish I would have been more diligent with offering the breast because he could have been successful with it. So I have some regrets there, which I think we all do as moms. have some regrets. My daughter, who was born term, I couldn't get her out of the womb and I couldn't get her off the breast. was latching on right away. Like I said, we breastfed for three and a half years, but similar to your situation, Brittany, ⁓ had an upper lip, a tongue and bilateral cheek ties. My nipples were just destroyed. Andrea Renkas: Mm. Serenity Mason: and we ended up getting them reversed and I immediately noticed the difference and hence we breastfed for years afterwards. So experience is ⁓ different ⁓ every mom. Every baby is completely different and it also depends on risk factors, pregnancy risk factors, delivery events, and what sort of trauma baby's been through because being born in and of itself is traumatic enough. But then we have all these interventions that happen as well and that can cause breastfeeding issues. Andrea Renkas: Yeah, I feel you too with I had my set my first one, like I said, three weeks early, completely different experience than my full term one, that just kind of knew what to do and weight wise and everything else completely different experience and plus experience myself as a mom. Because now I knew I'm like, there's something a little off here, we're going to see about tongue ties, and that sort of thing. So is that something that you assess for is tongue ties? Is that something that you can do? Serenity Mason: Thank Mm-hmm. We can assess, we can do an oral assessment, see how baby is functioning with tongue, how they're functioning on a finger versus how they're, ⁓ they're those muscles at the breast. It's not within an IBCLC scope of practice to diagnose. ⁓ We simply assess, take into consideration feeding habits, all ⁓ of above Give recommendations. a hot topic with the hospitals. Andrea Renkas: Yeah, I'm sure it is. And I'm sure that you have some good referral partners that you can, you know, connect moms and, you know, parents with too. Okay, some common questions would be how often should baby be feeding in the beginning? And what does that look like as they transition? You know, as they get older? Serenity Mason: so we've heard the feed your baby eight to 12 times in the 24 hour period, right? We've all heard that. Andrea Renkas: Mm-hmm. Serenity Mason: I never say that because parents hear the eight and that's what they focus on. And that is really the bare minimum that a an infant should be feeding at the breast. The average baby is going to feed 10, 11 times, even 1213 can be normal. But we feed our babies on demand. So anytime they're showing their those cues. anytime they're showing those early feeding cues. And even if they're not truly hungry, because they're deceiving because of their immature communication skills, they're very deceiving. We may associate a I'm uncomfortable with my swaddle sack here or I have gas in my belly, need to get out. The only way babies know how to soothe themselves is by sucking on something. That's their only skill that they have when they're born. So we may see baby's hands in their mouth and mistake that for a hunger cue. It's okay to still put your baby to breast because we're seeing those cues. That just gives mom and baby more opportunity to become familiar with breastfeeding, ⁓ holding, positioning baby to familiarize themselves with an appropriate latch and how to effectively use those muscles. So anytime we're seeing those feeding cues, put your baby to breast. It may be nine times, 10 times, 11, 12, 13, 14 times in a 24 hour period. That's perfectly okay. As your baby grows, as your baby grows and becomes more efficient and effective at the breast, they're probably going to feed a little less or quicker. Andrea Renkas: Yeah, absolutely. I just remember literally, just drawing the curtains for the first couple months and just walking around topless pretty much all day. It was just, you know, just just plan on it. It's kind of crazy. But if you're just full time breastfeeding, I mean, that's just what it is. And that's all right. So and I really did appreciate that. Yeah. Serenity Mason: And another excuse to maybe, yeah, another excuse to not invite visitors or another excuse to say no, because you need that time to become effective and familiar with breastfeeding. You need that time to be successful. ⁓ takes a good three to four weeks for breastfeeding to become really well established. Andrea Renkas: Mmm. Yeah, okay. Well, that's a good that's a good point, too, because it does take some time and a whole month or so at least and then also you're trying to figure out if there's something that's off. That's important to get that support as well during that time. Here's another question would be like, I know a lot of parents might be concerned about is my baby getting enough? How can they tell if baby is getting enough? Because obviously, if you have a bottle, ⁓ it's Serenity Mason: Thank Andrea Renkas: know three ounces or four ounces the breast is kind of like well when they're done they're done are they getting enough so can you address some of those concerns Serenity Mason: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. This is one my favorite topics to teach my parents or to educate them on. we're breastfeeding our baby, it's a lot more than just latching them on ⁓ ⁓ for them to fall asleep. We need to make sure, especially in these first couple of weeks here, that they are latched on deeply and they're effectively sucking. So there are two suck patterns that babies will practice when they're at breast. There's the non-nutritive sucking, which are those really quick, short, shallow birth suckles. And then there's the nutritive sucking, which are those longer, deeper rhythmic draws. The nutritive sucking is when they're actually transferring that milk. So when we're feeding our baby, I want parents to focus on really creeping on their baby, watch that baby and monitor assess and familiarize yourself with that suck pattern. We want to see more of the long deep nutritive sucks than the quick short shallow birth suckling that so the quality of the breastfeed along with the diaper output is going to tell you if your baby is transferring enough well that and along with their weight trends. is going to tell you if your baby is transferring enough. Britney: What about the speed that they're feeding at? know, because I think a lot of people might be like, well, they only fed for 10 minutes and then they fell asleep. What do I do? I don't, that was only 10 minutes. I should, I don't know that. I don't know how to do this. Shouldn't they be feeding for like 20 minutes? So how do you navigate that piece as well? Serenity Mason: Track your baby's feeds, not necessarily how long they're feeding, but when we're starting the feed and pay attention to that quality of the feed again. So make sure that we are doing whatever we need to do to get more of those long, deep, nutritive sucks in. It's not necessarily how much time is spent at the breast. It's how effectively we're sucking and transferring that milk. So if you're questioning it, say you've been feeding your baby, it's been a couple of minutes, minutes, they fell asleep. And you're thinking, they can't possibly be full. It's only been 10 minutes, I feel like they need to be feeding 1520 minutes or so, you can kind of stimulate them, poke and prod at them, bug them, basically remind them, hey, you're at the breast, need to be effectively transferring not just sleeping here, if they don't pick up that sock pattern. We can consider them probably full and you can switch to the other side or be done with the feed. That along with their body language is going to tell you if they're truly full or not. Andrea Renkas: I would always take the clothes off to get them cold, tickle their feet. Serenity Mason: Yeah, undress baby, get them naked, change that diaper, get some cold air to those sensitive areas. Turn the lights on, poke and prod them, bug them to keep them awake. Andrea Renkas: Mm-hmm. Britney: I love these like tangible tips. So let's keep rolling with these because I think there are a lot of things that people experience that, you know, like we just, and they want tips for it. What about something like mastitis? If they start feeling that that might be coming on, what are some at home things that they can do to help ease it? And then do they have to like contact their doctor right away and get an antibiotic? Like walk us through the options for that. Serenity Mason: Mm-hmm. That's a difficult topic because there's a difference between engorgement, which is expected at certain periods during your ⁓ production or as your milk stabilizes. ⁓ then there's true mastitis. you're absolutely feeling engorged, Your breasts look red. They feel warm to the touch. You feel feverish or achy. Those are all signs to reach out to your OB right away. But there are certain times where I would expect you to feel and uncomfortable. And that's something that I talk about during my breastfeeding class and that I also help navigate during lactation consults. Britney: So what would be a couple tips for someone who's feeling engorged in the moment? Serenity Mason: Hand expression, not necessarily hooking up to a pump and pumping, but hand expressing enough off to feel comfortable until that next breastfeeding session or the next pump session. Britney: what about where a baby is sleeping a little bit longer, but you're feeling really, really full and you also don't want to necessarily hand express too much because you don't want your body to be producing more in the middle of the night. Like how do you navigate that transition? Serenity Mason: Yeah. Right. So just hand expressing enough off to feel comfortable. You're right, we don't wanna trick that body into thinking we have twins or we need more milk than we actually need for our baby, but just hand express enough off to feel comfortable to get you through until that next feeding. Britney: What about like heat or cold or anything like that? Is that really not needed? It's just hand expressed until you're comfortable. Serenity Mason: It depends on the situation. It's really very individualized. And if you have lumps and bumps or not, if we're just having generalized engorgement overnight because your baby's learning to sleep a little bit longer, that hand expression typically hopefully will get you through. can be helpful for ⁓ ducts. ⁓ to help dilate those milk ducts and get that or help that milk pass through. can be helpful ⁓ you have some mastitis or you are really engorged icing afterwards, but it's really very individualized. Britney: Okay, another one that's pretty common, and I think all three of us experienced, is sore nipples. So, you know, like with our kiddos that had some tongue ties and there was actually some nipple damage going on, but you still have to keep feeding through that transition as you're getting things figured out. What can you do between feedings to help alleviate soreness? Serenity Mason: Depending on the severity of the damage and how much soreness you're feeling there's are a lot of different ⁓ to navigate that and that is something that if any mom is Experiencing bruising cracks blisters bleeding breaks in the skin, absolutely reach out to an IBCLC right away to help you navigate through that. There are a lot of different things that we can do. Depending on the situation and the individual mom, they're not all appropriate. So a full assessment is really needed of both mom and baby. But there are lots of things out there that we can do such as topicals, nipple rest, there are breast shells, the silvarets. Lots of options out there. It's also one of those very individualized situations. There's not a one size fits all. Britney: I just recently heard about the Silver Rats. Can you share what that is? Serenity Mason: Yeah, so those are Teeny tiny little, they're made of true silver, little silver shells that you can place over the breast. You can put them in the fridge. They feel really good when they're cool. They provide that cooling effect right out of the fridge. ⁓ those can be used for sore nipples to help heal ⁓ provide comfort. They also help prevent that friction from rubbing against your bra or your clothes. So an already sore nipple is going to hurt even more when it's rubbing against some fabric. So it can provide that. Andrea Renkas: So. Serenity Mason: that ⁓ barrier for relief. They need to be used sparingly though, not just put on and forgotten about. We need some airflow to the nipple still. So typically wearing for like 20, 30 minutes at a time and then giving your nipples a break before using again. Britney: What about supply and how much do you keep in the freezer? What would be a recommendation for kind of for somebody who is having like a mid-level supply? They're maybe not oversupplying, but they're not undersupplying. They have a little bit of a freezer stash. Is there like kind of a comfort number that you would recommend or before you like start donating, how would you navigate that? Just knowing that who knows what the future holds and what if you need some more from the freezer? Serenity Mason: Yeah. Mm hmm. That again is a very answer. feel breastfeeding is very all of lactation is very complex. That's not a rigid guideline. This is where you should be at. This is what you expect. This is what you do. It's all very individualized. Feed your baby, not the freezer. Now some moms ⁓ are to be over producers. Some moms produce slightly less. But the goal is we just produce enough to feed our baby for that day. Some moms may have a goal of creating a freezer stash. And that's just going to depend on how much you want or what you want your freezer stash to look like. The volume after two to four weeks, ⁓ should probably be producing anywhere from ⁓ average 25 to 33 ounces per day. So depends on are we an exclusive breast feeder? Are we an exclusive pumper? When do we want to start introducing bottles? So when do we need to have some milk saved up? But typically you just want to have enough for next day for a full day's worth of feeding. Andrea Renkas: I feel like it kind of depends on your situation. If you're going to work, if you're babysitters, that sort of thing. Britney: Okay. Serenity Mason: ⁓ Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there are a lot of different variables that play into it. Andrea Renkas: Mm-hmm. Britney: What about ⁓ some fun different types of uses for breast milk? Because as we were talking about like sore nipples, I do remember like hearing, know, your breast milk has healing properties and antimicrobial properties. So like actually using some of your own breast milk and like putting it around the sore nipple. But like, what are some other fun ways that people can use breast milk outside of just feeding a baby? Serenity Mason: Mm-hmm. I love using breast milk, especially colostrum those first couple ⁓ when things are a little ⁓ and uncomfortable ⁓ express a little bit of colostrum, especially rub it all over the nipple. Let that air dry That's gonna help provide some healing and ⁓ soothing properties Especially if you have some breaks in the skin use your breast milk your colostrum on there as well ⁓ I love using breast milk for milk baths. ⁓ any rashes baby may have you can use it on their face for baby acne, eczema yourself. Britney: I'd be curious what percentage of people have actually tried their breast milk. Like they should. They should try it. Serenity Mason: think it's becoming more common. I think more people are interested in that and they they've been trying their own breast milk. I would put it in our mashed potatoes and my coffee. I'd feed I fed it to my family all the time because you're absolutely right. Your your breast milk is synergistic, meaning the composition of it is going to change throughout your first day breastfeeding or pumping to the your very last day. Your body our bodies are absolutely amazing. And We are going to respond to all these outside factors and create all these antimicrobial, antibiotic, antiviral, antifungal properties to combat whatever we are exposed to. So I love breast milk. I think it's absolutely amazing and how our bodies can do that. But go ahead, try it, drink it, put it in your food. Britney: Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot of ways that people could definitely use it. Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about your offerings when it comes to how are you supporting families through their breastfeeding journey. But then I think you also offer your postpartum doula. We talked in the first one about NICU transition, your program through that. But why don't you just fill us in on the services that you offer, whether it's lactation or something else. Andrea Renkas: awesome. Serenity Mason: Mm-hmm. So I have my breastfeeding basics class again, which I recommend every pregnant mom take prior to delivery. And really it's going to be most beneficial if you take that early on because we go through expectations to delivery expectations postpartum and beyond. ⁓ then I also offer lactation consults, lactation follow ups, and within all of my doula packages. So ⁓ of the postpartum doula packages and the NICU doula packages, I include my lactation services within those packages. So you don't have to schedule or pay for extra lactation consults or follow-ups. Britney: That is so nice. That is so nice. What does a postpartum doula do? Serenity Mason: The postpartum DUA is there to help support the family, support baby with that transition home. A postpartum doula can do anything that that mom and baby needs for support. on the mom, focusing on the baby, focusing on the entire family, helping with bonding, helping sibling bonding is a huge one. Helping just navigate life with newborn, reading infant behavior cues ⁓ and communication helping with All the newborn basics, parenting basics, maybe for a first time parent, it's to be really helpful for somebody who ⁓ has never even held baby before. How do you safely appropriately hold your baby? How do you change a diaper? ⁓ How you care for this new little human that can't communicate with you? ⁓ Helping miscellaneous tasks throughout the house, helping just make your life easier so that you can focus on your family and Andrea Renkas: Mm. Serenity Mason: learning your baby and not all the outside noise. Britney: I feel like single one of us as a mom has probably said the words, ⁓ wish there was another one of me. ⁓ I wish there was two of me, one to do this task and one to keep this going. And it's like you're almost doubling that mom, but also bringing expert intelligence into it. ⁓ that ⁓ amazing. That sounds so great. Andrea Renkas: Mm-hmm. Serenity Mason: Mm-hmm. Andrea Renkas: Yeah. Serenity Mason: Yes. Yeah, I focus a lot on education and boosting confidence so that families feel confident in their skills and reading their baby and caring for their baby. Not just Andrea Renkas: Yeah, that's huge. Serenity Mason: doing the little chores and tasks, a lot of it is do we seriously care for this ⁓ new human being? And how ⁓ I help my family feel confident and comfortable in this new situation or this new journey? Andrea Renkas: love that. Britney: Yeah, amazing. Amazing. All right, well, let's close out this episode. We do have one more coming up. We're gonna be talking about some really cool information in the next episode. And really talking about Andrea Renkas: Mm-hmm. Britney: what biologic norms are for babies, as well as postpartum support. Like there's a gap in our society these days. And so how can we help fill that whether it's for ourselves or for family or What should we be asking for? How have things changed over time? We're gonna have a great conversation in the next one as well. Serenity Mason: Thank you.