Latest / Identity at the Center / #303 - IDAC Sponsor Spotlight - Zilla Security

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#303 - IDAC Sponsor Spotlight - Zilla Security · Identity at the Center

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We're here with a new take on an identity, identity security,
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identity governance, and we're here to disrupt the space.
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These organizations are sitting on a treasure trove of data that
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could absolutely reduce risk, and a tool like this sounds.
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Awesome. We looked at this and said
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there's got to be a better way. You have to be able to go where
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the data is, and you have to be able to do this with a business
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user who we think of as somebody who is almost always a novice,
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like a perpetual novice. This needs a solution that just
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works and works with the system where the data is, and that's
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what we set out to build. We want to be the best
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integration platform that our customers can rely on.
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We're building a system around this to solve what is probably a
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decade old problem, but it's one we're very confident about
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solving. This is identity at the center
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if it has anything to do with IAM.
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This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
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Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
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Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
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Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
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Oh, not so bad yourself. Hey did you say identity at the
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centre? Because I thought this was AI at
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the centre. I think I'm on the wrong
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podcast. Sometimes, but no identity at
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the centre. That is our maybe our our future
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podcast, AI at the Centre, but it seems like it's creeping into
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a whole bunch of different things these days in the
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identity space. I think you should just start
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getting the domain names locked down now.
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Yeah, I've already thought about that.
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But why don't we turn into this is a sponsor spotlight episode,
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right? So we create these in
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collaboration with our partners that are out there and they come
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on and share insights and things like that.
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So to make it very clear, right, this is a very, this is a
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sponsored episode. So everything you hear is
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sponsored today by Zilla security.
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We've had them on in the past. So they were with us back in
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March. We had Deepak Taneja from Zilla
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join us kind of earlier in the year and that was episode I
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think 269 back in March. And so we've got another one
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today and I'm very excited to announce we've got Niton
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Sonowang. He's the chief product officer
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and Co founder of Zilla Security.
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Welcome to the show, Ninton. Thank you very much for having
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me. Yeah, thank you so much for
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taking the time. And as I mentioned before, this
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is the second time that we've done one of these with Zilla and
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the first one was well received and hopefully this one will be
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as well. I'm sure it will.
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Why don't we get into this though, because you know, this
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is the first time you've been on identity at the centre or AI at
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the centre, depending on where we're going to go with that.
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How did you get into the space of identity?
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Is it something that you chose or did it choose you?
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No identity identity chose me. Actually, I got into this this
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domain when we started Zillow security.
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And, you know, as I was getting off my previous startup and and
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looking to do the next one, a friend and ex colleague
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connected me to my Co founder and our CEO, Deepak Taneja.
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And, and we, you know, bounced ideas off of each other for
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quite some time. But very early on it became
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clear to me, you know, hey, I want to work with Deepak and
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start my next thing. So, and over time, as as the
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idea evolved, it turned into it turned into Zillow security.
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So you're a chief product officer?
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I'm always fascinated by titles and roles in our industry.
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What does a chief product officer do?
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And that's a very good question. And and you know, and another
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dimension to that question really is the role itself
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changes as the company changes and the company grows.
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So at Zilla, I run our product and our engineering teams.
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So both on the engineering side and on the product management
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side. And you know, the role has also
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evolved over time. So early in our days, I would
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write code and, and now less so now there are better people than
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I am that write code, better engineers and and also better
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people who are better product managers than I am that that do
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the product side of things. So that's how the role has
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evolved. And you know, as as the company
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will continue to grow, it will evolve even more.
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Yeah, I feel like that's an important part of of any role,
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right? You have to adapt to whatever,
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whatever the needs are of the organization or the moment,
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whatever that looks like. For people who are not familiar
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with Zilla, if they missed the first episode that we did tell
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us about Zilla Security, what is it that that you guys bring to
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the market that people should be aware of?
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Yeah. So at Zilla Security, you know,
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we've really taken, you know, a step back and as you know, our
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our CEO, my Co founder, Deepak Daneja has spent an entire
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career in the identity space. And and I think you you folks on
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an episode that he was on, you called him like the Tom Brady of
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identity. And and honestly, it is so
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apartment and in part actually, I really wanted to come on a
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podcast podcast with you guys also because you know, I'm not
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from the identity world and and like today's episode, to me, it
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feels like I've arrived right? So and just one of your episodes
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I listened to and it was like, boy, that intro music like I
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gotta get on this podcast so flatter.
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Get you everywhere in this podcast and keep going.
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Yeah. So, you know, all that said, so
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you know, with Deepak's background and deep expertise
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and, and sort of a fresh set of eyes at, at, at the identity
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space and honestly as, as the tech world at large, as it has
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evolved over the past decade or so.
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And there's a couple of, you know, completely orthogonal
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evolutions that have happened in the space, right.
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One, of course is cloud and SAS and everything else has taken on
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a scale and magnitude that it never had 10-15 years ago.
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But the second thing that's happened is the level of
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business involvement in systems and applications and business
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owners and people who really are not, you know, IT
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administrators, leave alone identity people, right?
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They're not responsible for for managing, you know, really much
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of what it turns out to be identity related.
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And so, you know, at Sozilla, we're, you know, we took a look
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at look at this whole landscape and there's got to be a better
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way to do things than what the legacy systems have taken the
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path down. So we're here, you know, we're
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here with the, you know, with the, a new product, a new take
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on an identity, identity, security, identity governance.
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And we're here to disrupt the space.
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I, I, you know, it's funny that you mentioned the business
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because I feel like this is something where, you know, if
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you're, if you're in this industry, especially if you're
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working as part of an IM real world scenario.
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A lot of times there's this idea of like, hey, we want the
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business to be more involved in identity, but they're not
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identity people. And yet we're asking them to
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make decisions on is this access appropriate?
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And we just kind of assume that they know they they don't have
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those answers. And that's not always true,
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right? That's right.
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In fact. In fact, what's interesting is
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that we are now more so calling on business people to do a lot
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of things for us, right? We call on them to set up and
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configure and build integrations into systems we call on.
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And when that fails, we call on them to do screenshots and
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screen scraping and things like that.
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And we call on them to do access reviews.
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And we put in front of them some very complex entitlements and
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tell them to say it's OK. And more often that they don't
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know what to do. And so they do what is, you
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know, naturally allows them to go do their day job, which is to
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say, say approval, and they move on, right.
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So I think increasingly we've called on, you know, business
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users and we'll continue to do so, right, Because this this is
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not a, you know, this is not a trend that's going to disappear
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overnight. This is a long lasting tectonic
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shift in the way IT operates and this is here to stay.
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So everything we do around, you know, around security in general
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and identity, particularly in this new modern world, plays a
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much more central role than it ever has.
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So it's all it's plays a central role around security.
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And you know, wherever there are security concerns, obviously
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compliance follows because compliance wants you to show
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them that you're doing what you said you were going to do.
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And, and so now you have a security problem or a compliance
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problem in this particular new world.
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And of course, if you are giving people access and you're taking
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away access, you have a provisioning deprovisioning
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problem, right? So, so it's all, you know, it's,
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it's all in some sense a new world where business users are
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being asked to play much more of a active role and something that
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they'd rather not do. You know, Nathan, we've reached
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out to Deepak, Tunisia, whatever it was maybe 6-9 months ago.
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I guess he's really somebody who is around the beginning of
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identity. Then he was one of the key
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people who kind of developed this IGA space.
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And IGA space in my mind is all about ensuring that the right
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people have the right access. I don't think IT or information
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security can make the decisions on who gets access to what.
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That's got to be the business users.
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What IT or IS needs to do is give them systems that make
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sense that they can use to do that role, to fulfill that, that
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role that they have in managing access.
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And one of the things that like knock my socks off with the
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Zillow platforms, what you do is use and the ability to kind of
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use a tool that I've never seen and I, I still haven't seen from
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any other vendor. I'm not just saying that because
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you're doing a sponsor spotlight, but seriously, this
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is innovative stuff that people need to go out and check out if
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they haven't already. We're just kind of like
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highlighting on your screen where certain fields are so you
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can do an access review. Does that level of automation
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that can really enable a business user?
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It's not just, you know, using more friendly business
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terminology, which basically gives it a quantum leap, but now
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that you've introduced AI into the process, I mean,
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fundamentally like improves your ability to put those decisions
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in the business's hands. That's right.
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And, you know, again, we, we took a step back and we look at
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what our customers were doing right and our customers and, and
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the people we wished would be our customers when we started
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Zilla Security, you know, they, they, they had this problem in,
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in, in droves. And the, you know, it, it was
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appalling how, how we ask business users often with who
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have, who manage very sensitive systems, right?
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So these may be things like banking portals or insurance
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portals or, you know, and things like that for where there's a
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real need for identity governance, right?
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And so we looked at this and we said there's got to be a better
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way. You have to be able to go where
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the data is. And you have to be able to do
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this with a, a business user who we think of as somebody who is
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almost always a novice, like a perpetual novice because he or
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she gets called on to do, particularly when it comes to
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things like Sox compliance, gets called on to do this every few
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months or so. Or, you know, six weeks, 8
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weeks, whatever your cadence might be.
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And they dread it. And and so Zeus was born out of
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this, you know, this needs a solution that just works and
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works with the system where the data is.
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And that's what we set out to build.
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You know, in fact, one of our engineers who who spent time
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building, building Zeus, somebody that I've worked with
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ever since he was in, you know, I joined me in a start up many
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moons ago as an intern from MIT. And, you know, and he sort of
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really got creative with how we can make it, you know, super
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easy to essentially learn from the Dom of the, you know, of the
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console of the application that that you're on.
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We've been, we filed a patent for the work we have done.
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We're very proud of it. And you know, we've taken that
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many, many steps further and we continue to we, we intend to
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take it even more further so that, you know, the app owner
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just simply trains us. It's a one time exercise from
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then on. We know what the system is.
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We can enable them to set Zeus up so that it runs in a headless
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browser on a nightly basis. It's able to bring in
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credentials from a secure storage vault, login into the
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system, get the identity and access data, whatever it needs.
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You know, we extended zoos to be able to go grab things like lost
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login. You know, this is always a blind
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spot. And like, are people using the
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stuff that we give them, right? What what the MFA status of this
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account that they have access to and any other data that's
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present in the system. And it comes back into our, you
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know, into the Zilla system, if you will.
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So we're very proud of Zilla universal sync.
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But more than that, you know the I have been surprised at how
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effectively many of our customers have used Zilla,
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Universal Sink or Zeus to solve their business pain point.
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Yeah, I'm going to echo what Jim said.
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I I have not seen another capability that looks and feels
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and smells what like Zeus. It's very it's very interesting.
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I would definitely encourage people to go go back because we
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did spend time with Deepak talk about that earlier this year.
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So episode 269, go back and and watch their list of that one.
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Let me put you on the spot here real quick, because something
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you just said sparks a question I've got.
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You said you were surprised at kind of what your customers are
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doing with Zeus. Is there something you know, is
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there a creative thing or something in quick?
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Just like, wow, I never really kind of thought about it from
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the angle that it was like, oh, like what does that help me
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manifest the surprise in my brain?
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Yeah. So the so the so The thing is,
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you know, and I think you, you, you alluded to earlier, which
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is, you know, identity governance and Deepak was part
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of sort of forming, forming the identity governance.
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You know, last week we were at an event here of, of Cecil's in,
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in Boston and, and we jokingly said, you know, Boston's the
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birth place of IGA and which is really true because, you know,
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because IGA was Co founded by in part Deepak, sort of it was a
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outcome out of Sarbanes, you know, Sarbanes-Oxley regulations
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and and things like that, because it was intended to avoid
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a lot of fraud, right. And so, so if you, if you come
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back and say, OK, well, the whole purpose was do identity
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governance because people do bad things with the access that you
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give them. Sometimes they do trades they're
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not supposed to. Sometimes they do just downright
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downright, you know, financial fraud.
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And so this means at its core, really it comes down to is that
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there are systems where people have sensitive financial
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transactions can be conducted and, and things like that.
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And, and that's what they need governance for.
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And, and what surprised me is how many of these systems are
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just so, you know, 1990s, if you will, right?
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Like or, and they are that way for a good reason, because, you
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know, a banking portal has no real business driver to just
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become modern because we all say so, right?
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Like, but that the governance problem doesn't go away, right?
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Or, you know, or even other administrative systems that you
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look back on and you're like, Oh yeah, it is critical.
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It is very important that there be governance around who has
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access to being able to manipulate your corporate Wi-Fi
17:24
network, right? Of course, you need to be
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governing that. And that's, that's not
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important. That's sort of what I mean by
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I've been surprised by that is because the range and the
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breadth of systems that have, you know, that have been used
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with Zeus particularly and all our other integration
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capability, right? So one of the, you know, one of
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the observations that Deepak also had early on in the
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founding of Zillow is basically, look, you know, IGA programs go
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sideways because they just don't, they just don't succeed
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at onboarding systems, right? And whatever terminology you
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use, whether it's onboarding systems, whether it's
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integrations or whether it's, you know, the, the reality is
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it's all anchored in being able to effectively connect to the
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systems that you're trying to govern and be able to either
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collect from them if all you're doing is compliance or being
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able to provision into them, deprovision into them and so on,
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right? So IGA programs are anchored in
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integrations, right? So that was, you know, that was
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an early observation. Like, you know, if there was a
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thing that said, you know, this I believe, right?
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Like I think at Zilla, this we believe, right?
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Like IGA programs are anchored and integrations.
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And so we're like, OK, well, if that's the case, we gotta be.
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And if that's the case and that's the pain point that our
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customers are facing and the customers we want to have are
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facing, then the we've got to be an amazing integrations
18:58
platform. So let's go build that, right?
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And so you know, all the API integration capability that
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we've built, all the stuff that we've done with Zilla Universal
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Sync, all the things that we're building in order to be able to
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get in a very secure manner in a hybrid network.
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All of that's kind of borne on effect, right?
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So which is that we want to be the best integration platform
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that our customers can rely on. And you know, Zeus was part of
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that. We've also done and Zeus is all
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no code, right? So nobody needs to write Java
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code. As I say, it doesn't get much
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easier than. Point No, I mean, it's a, it's
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like you're on an identity, you know, identity and access team
19:42
in a, in any enterprise. I mean, like, do you really have
19:46
the ability to hire Java developers to go build stuff for
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you or, you know, so it's a challenge and it's a very
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practical, the practical reality of the world we live in.
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So you know Zeus is no code. You know, in addition to a very
20:02
large number of API integrations that are out-of-the-box in the
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Zilla product, we've built no code capability so that you can
20:13
simply tell us for a system that Zilla has never seen, you can
20:17
simply tell us this is going to be O auth authentication.
20:20
By the way, here is the client ID, here's the client secret,
20:23
here's the REST API endpoint that you can call to go get the
20:27
user record. And here's what you would do to
20:30
go get the group record. And in, in a short period of
20:34
time, you will have built yourself an integration, right.
20:37
And so that's sort of the standard that we're holding
20:40
ourselves to. And you know, this started
20:43
validating itself early in Zilla's life because we would
20:48
routinely and that was the time when I did Pocs.
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And you know, it's like the chief product officer of job
20:55
evolves over time and when I would do PO CS and it was very
21:00
important to sort of learn, you know, learn from the customers
21:05
first time. It continues to be so.
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But it was like people would tell us that, you know, I've
21:13
done more in the hour that I've been on the Zoom with you in
21:17
APOC than I did at my previous job, right?
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Like it would be, we would hear things like that and that's sort
21:25
of validated that, you know, the belief that we hold here in
21:30
civil security. Well now, now Zeus is old hat,
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right? There's new stuff coming up.
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Oh, it's going to be amazing. I think there's a lot, you know,
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there's a lot that we are doing with, with Zeus.
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There's a lot we want to do with no code integrations.
21:49
We are in the process of building, you know, community
21:53
that can collaborate on sort of, you know, helping each other
21:59
and, and with the integrations that that get built.
22:05
This thing that's taken the world by storm in the past year
22:08
or so. Large language models are
22:10
amazing at figuring out stuff that's in public documentation,
22:14
right? So we want to figure out how to
22:16
bring that to bear to, you know, to essentially solving the
22:22
foundational problem, which is luck.
22:24
You got to make it easy for an IGA program as it gets up and
22:29
running to just integrate and then the program runs on top of
22:35
that. It's kind of like you can't lay
22:36
a foundation and and build an amazing house on a rickety
22:39
foundation. I think that's really how we see
22:41
it. Well, you can, but it'll fall.
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Over. It'll fall over pretty quickly.
22:44
Not, not advised. Well, why don't we talk about
22:47
what's coming up next? Because you're, you're here to
22:49
tease some new features and new capabilities that are coming up
22:51
for Zillow, right? Yeah.
22:53
So, you know, you know, we've, we've taken a, a real hard look
22:58
at, at IGA and sort of, you know, the, the, the problems and
23:05
all of the manual work that people have to do and people
23:09
called up get called upon to do. And the thing that we talked
23:11
about, right. So what are we working on is,
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you know, we, we a year ago or so as we started taking a hard
23:18
look at sort of AI and ML and, and we did a bunch of
23:21
experiments and we're like, OK, what is it that we can do and
23:25
build that adds real meaningful value to an identity team and
23:31
makes a difference, right? There's a lot of gimmicky things
23:34
that one could be doing and, and, and, you know, we're sort
23:39
of shying away from that. And so, you know, the, the fact
23:44
that we call upon people to do the same sort of access review
23:51
quarter after quarter after quarter is just, you know, it
23:57
just shouldn't be this way, right.
23:59
And so we're bringing AI to bear on a, you know, on a somewhat
24:04
age-old problem, which is how do I take all the data, this
24:08
amazing set of integrations that are there in the Zola platform
24:11
that connect to your, all the systems and now knows who has
24:15
access to what. Now how do we take that who has
24:19
access to what at an individual level and, and have a machine
24:24
learning model learn from all of that and say, OK, from here what
24:29
I can tell with, with the high degree of confidence that just
24:34
about everybody who is doing QA has this access in, you know, in
24:43
Jira, for example, right? Or all sales people should have
24:47
access to sales force, right? I think we as humans intuitively
24:52
understand that, but we as IGA practitioners have failed to
24:57
take that intuitive understanding into practice,
25:00
right? Like so, so and, and, and
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honestly, the problem here is that, you know, even people
25:08
don't know where to begin, right?
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And people don't know where to begin.
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And it used to be, there were valiant efforts made a decade or
25:17
so ago, including by some of my colleagues here at Zillah to
25:21
help organizations figure this out by creating, you know, what
25:27
one might call now organizational roles, right?
25:31
And organize sort of these teams that go and a role mining team
25:37
that centrally tries to figure out who should have access to
25:39
what. And and then they try to solicit
25:42
feedback from business users who want nothing to do with this,
25:45
right? Having been on one of those role
25:47
mining teams I can tell you it is tedious work and.
25:51
Sometimes effective and sometimes effective, right?
25:54
And so it's, it's so, you know, one of our team members here
25:58
who, who was on the founding team at, at Deepak's previous
26:02
company, you know, he, Dan likes to say, you know, roles and, and
26:06
he, he's spent just like you, Jeff.
26:09
He worked with the largest enterprises in the world trying
26:12
to help them solve this problem by what was an emerging,
26:16
emerging tech at that time, right?
26:18
And, and he came to the conclusion he goes, you know,
26:21
rolls are like a floor wax and a dessert topping all at the same
26:26
time, you know, and the first time I heard it, I was like, you
26:32
know, fell off my chair laughing.
26:35
But it is like, you know, it, it just doesn't work.
26:39
And, you know, it has a lot of promise.
26:41
You embark on these things with a a tremendous amount of promise
26:45
and hope and, and, and a lot of man hours and sweat later, you
26:52
know, they're out of date, right.
26:55
So, so, but and and part of the other issue has happened.
27:00
And we we talked about this earlier, which is like, you
27:02
know, the the context of what type of individual in the
27:08
organization should have access to what type of app is now even
27:11
more Federated than Endeavour was, right.
27:13
So, so while one might argue that, you know, 1012 years ago,
27:19
the central IT teams had some hope of doing this, you know,
27:23
it's like here we are in 2024, they have no hope of doing this.
27:26
Like they have no context left anymore.
27:31
And so, but the context is then in the business, right?
27:35
The application owners know this.
27:37
And when you logically say to the person who owns Salesforce,
27:40
all S ES have this and they yes, yes, I know, I give it and, and
27:46
I review it. And so, you know, the, the, our
27:50
goal is bring machine learning to bear on this problem and
27:55
really help the business owner out in a manner that they can
28:01
then say, OK, this makes sense to me.
28:03
Everything else is an outlier. And that I'm happy to look at,
28:07
by the way, because they're outliers.
28:09
But the things that are not are once that AI is able to identify
28:15
in a meaningful fashion and and then allow you to then make a
28:20
very defensible case to your auditor, which is what the
28:24
auditors also want to see, right?
28:27
And so at a very high level, you know, that's sort of what we're
28:30
working on. Of course, there's a lot of
28:31
complexity behind this, you know, and there is the data that
28:37
we get from HR systems and so on has attributes in it.
28:40
If you have to leverage them, you have to make sure they're
28:42
right. And so we're building a system
28:44
around this to solve, you know, solve what is probably a decade
28:49
old problem, but but that's one we are very confident about,
28:53
about solving. It sounds like a really
28:56
interesting capability and one that's important too, because I
28:58
think it's this, it's this application of data, right that
29:02
you've got in your organization. And now how do we use that to
29:05
make our lives easier, which I'm I'm always a fan of.
29:08
I would imagine, you know, this, this comes into a situation
29:11
where why do we keep asking the same questions over and over
29:14
again if we know what the answer is going to be, right?
29:16
It's kind of like doing an access review for access review
29:18
sakes. Yes, here is Jeff, here is Jim.
29:21
They have access to this. Of course, the answer is always
29:23
yes because of the role they're in.
29:24
Why are you asking me this? That's correct.
29:27
And that's what's so frustrating for business users and
29:31
supervisors and so on, right? And so a system that can get
29:36
away from it, but then more call attention to the things that
29:40
actually need attention, right? I think that's really what's
29:44
getting lost in this is, you know, you, you dump a pile of
29:48
stuff in front of me and then expect me to, which is not my
29:52
job at all, to sift through every single, you know, leaf in
29:56
that pile and, and, and so and. All we're going to do is just
30:00
get it like, yeah, I didn't find that and then move on.
30:02
After I move on Exactly right, exactly.
30:05
So whereas this will, this will meaningfully help people focus
30:08
on the things that really matter and, and pay close attention to
30:13
that administrative privilege that's been sort of being handed
30:17
out like candy perhaps and, and, and immediate things like that,
30:22
right? Which is really what we want.
30:24
And you know, again, you know, this is both the compliance
30:28
outcome. Of course, that's what brings
30:30
people, forces people into action.
30:32
Often we wish it wasn't that way, but it is what it is.
30:36
But compliance is there for a real, you know, business reason,
30:40
which is, look, the business doesn't want to have problems
30:45
and data leakage and and breaches and things like that,
30:49
right? There's not a single business
30:50
leader that would say to you, yeah, I'm perfectly fine with
30:53
the breach, right? Like that would never happen
30:56
but. If you if you want to be a hero
30:58
to the business, make their lives easier, easier and get
31:00
them easy buttons to reduce risk, reduce effort, things like
31:04
that. I think, you know, that's that's
31:06
something that everybody who's listening to this probably
31:08
should be the you effort. I am like, how does this feature
31:10
or thing that I'm doing helping that helping, you know, those
31:13
efforts? I'm curious, I, I know we're
31:16
kind of teasing this, this capability coming out.
31:18
Are we able to share the name yet of it?
31:20
Like what's this thing called? Or do we need to wait a little
31:23
bit for that? Yeah, I think, you know, we're
31:25
putting finishing touches on on this.
31:28
We'd love to tell the world more about it pretty soon.
31:34
And you know, and, and the, the ultimate objective in this is
31:39
which is, you know, when my, when a new employee steps into
31:45
the door at my company, I should be able to figure out what
31:49
access they need in order to be productive on day one, right?
31:55
And it should not be something like, oh, make them like John or
31:58
make them like Jane because you know what?
32:00
No, Jane's been around here for a while.
32:01
Jane has a bunch of administrative access, right?
32:03
Because Jane's super smart. We don't know about this person
32:07
and super careful, but so, so something that's really, you
32:13
know, and, and in a way that is that makes that person
32:17
productive. Again, we talked about the
32:19
security side of this, you know, we wanted to make sure we do
32:22
this in a least privileged manner.
32:25
And so, you know, tee up sort of like the, the three stools we
32:30
think of, of identity government, the three legs of
32:32
the stool at 3 stools, 3 legs of the stool, you know, sort of
32:37
the, the security compliance and, and provisioning which is
32:43
making people more productive as quickly as we can make them.
32:47
So Newton, you talked in terms of outcome around a compliance
32:51
outcome, but I'm seeing many other outcomes.
32:53
I'm seeing a security outcome. So Jeff and I often use this
32:59
fictitious scenario of do people really need to approve access to
33:05
the cafeteria menu, do an application or a file on a share
33:10
that is the cafeteria menu? Does someone actually have to go
33:14
and approve that? Or is the risk so low that we
33:19
could just give anybody permission to the cafeteria menu
33:23
has an account. They've they've gone through
33:25
enough vetting that that information is so low risk to
33:28
the organization doesn't have to pass through human hands.
33:32
And by not passing through human hands, you no longer have the
33:37
hurdle of now I have to manage X number of approvals and I start
33:44
getting into rubber stamping because this is just too much.
33:47
I have a day job. I don't want a part time job
33:51
approving access. So now you have, well, obviously
33:55
the efficiency driver because there's fewer approvals to make.
33:59
You have an accuracy driver, which leads to better security.
34:04
So you have a security driver. So I'm seeing all those things
34:08
in in what you're saying. That is, that is exactly how we,
34:13
you know, we, we see the world too, right, Which is an, an, an
34:18
early advisor to Zilla Zasiso. He said to us, you know, he said
34:22
I think of security and compliance as two sides of the
34:25
same coin because compliance all about about demonstrating that
34:30
the security best practices that you said you intend to follow
34:35
are the ones you follow, right? And so, you know, securing
34:39
compliance outcomes kind of go hand in hand.
34:43
What is interesting is that the compliance outcome comes with an
34:48
additional burden. And you alluded to that just
34:50
now, which is about accuracy and completeness, right?
34:54
And because, you know, because as soon as it becomes a thing of
34:57
compliance, now the auditor wants to wants evidence.
35:01
And so, you know, another problem that we set our eyes on
35:07
at Zilla around access reviews was sort of like this evidence
35:12
problem, right? Which is, which is, you know,
35:16
now, now we're kind of flipping it a little bit, right?
35:18
I think now I'm a business user. My job is to make sure the
35:22
organization is compliant, right?
35:24
So in the same way as that the other business users are there
35:27
to do, I as a business user have to become compliant, right?
35:30
And so, so, you know, our direct customers, the people who buy
35:35
the Zilla product, they need a business outcome.
35:37
And their business outcome is no Dings on the audit, certainly
35:43
not socks and things like that, because that gets the CFO's
35:46
attention. And nobody wants the CFO's
35:48
attention and, and prove it to auditors who in their past life
35:56
have been accountants, because they're, they're making, they're
35:59
used to making sure that the pennies add up, right?
36:01
And so, so, so on the compliance side, we're faced with auditors
36:07
who really check every ball line and they need all the evidence.
36:11
And, and so that's another thing that we brought automation to
36:15
bear, right, which is lock. Nobody should be manually saving
36:19
these things in Google Drive folders or in SharePoint folders
36:22
and, and things like that. It's like, why can the system
36:26
just not automate this? And that's the other thing that
36:30
we do with, with part part of the accessory product is we just
36:34
automate all the evidence collection.
36:36
And in some sense, we help the organization with the business
36:39
problem, in this case happens to be one.
36:41
Yeah, I kind of feel like in this case, when it comes to AI,
36:46
it can take that compliance outcome because you can achieve
36:50
the compliance outcome the old way, which is you need to review
36:56
and approve every single request.
37:00
The security outcome is actually improved by inserting AI by just
37:06
putting a focus on what humans really need to decide.
37:10
Now the AI has to learn and be able to accurately recommend or
37:16
make decisions that are going to that auditors aren't going to
37:21
question. So it's there's probably an
37:23
element of, you know, people have to build that, that
37:30
confidence auditors IT people. But I think it builds over time
37:36
as you can show that actually we're getting more accurate
37:39
results using AI than having people, you know, potentially
37:44
rubber stamping access. And if you use a, a risk model
37:47
and speak in the terms that CSO's think in, right?
37:51
I mean, all of us as identity consultants and practitioners,
37:57
we're in the game of, you know, being risk evaluators and, and
38:00
speaking in terms of risk. And this is really about
38:04
reducing risk. That's right.
38:07
That's that's the goal of compliance.
38:09
But then when you look at actually how you achieve
38:11
compliances, it's it's I don't know that it necessarily always
38:15
drives better security. That's that's, that's exactly
38:19
right. And in part, I think it happens
38:21
because, you know, because you're overwhelming, you know,
38:27
you're overwhelming people with things and you know, what you
38:31
put your finger on is exactly right.
38:33
I think being able to assess the risk and calling attention to
38:40
the entitlements that are high, high risk and highly sensitive
38:46
versus, you know, I, I like the cafeteria menu analogy, right?
38:52
Because because you know, it's, it's, you should not, they
38:57
should not get commingled in a manner that, that everybody
39:01
thinks of the, you know, the administrative entitlement in an
39:06
AWS account equivalent to a cafeteria menu access, right?
39:10
Like they're completely very different levels of risk.
39:15
You also want to call attention to to other aspects of as well,
39:22
like you know, for example, identities now that are related
39:29
to machine integrations, right? So identities that are service
39:35
accounts intended for a application, identities that you
39:42
know, inherit entitlements and not very obvious ways, right?
39:50
And this is where we can bring, bring even large, bring AI and
39:55
more more specifically large language models to bear.
39:58
You'd be surprised at how good they are at being able to tell
40:03
you whether an AWS policy is something you should consider
40:07
privileged or not. You know, and, and most people
40:11
can't do that. So so again, I'm I'm a ten
40:16
career writer. I want to try to envision how
40:21
this new functionality is going to work.
40:22
And let's take a scenario. Jeff hires Jim for the IDAC
40:28
Corporation and which I. Would.
40:32
Never view. That would never happen.
40:35
Well, we don't have a cafeteria menu either, Jeff, so I would
40:38
like to file a complaint. It's been getting very boring in
40:41
terms of what we eat. But let's just say Jeff wants to
40:44
give Jim access to the cafeteria menu on, you know, one of his
40:49
first days. And that's not a birthright
40:51
provision. Walk us through kind of how the
40:55
system evaluates that and decisions on it.
40:59
Yeah. So the way to think about this
41:01
is, you know, when Zilla integrates into all the systems
41:06
in HR system and so on. Now we have a good map of, you
41:11
know, what type of individual gets access to what.
41:15
And now we can answer the question of with a high degree
41:20
of confidence. And you know, if Jim walking
41:25
into into the corporation with so and so job function as
41:31
identified by different attributes that that are there
41:34
in the HR system, what must Jim have access to and what may Jim
41:42
have access to right. And then the, you know, the last
41:50
thing is that everything else is just outliers, right?
41:53
So if you sort of think about it, and this is probably how we
41:56
as humans might even think about it, logically speaking, right?
41:59
It just has not been very easy to operationalize.
42:03
And so it's like, you know, if you, if you've determined that
42:07
this is what you must have access to in order to be able to
42:10
do your job, then those just in some sense should be treated
42:15
like birthright access. And if there are other entitled
42:20
that you may get, then those could be things that are in some
42:27
sense not standing entitlements, but perhaps pre approved.
42:32
Pre approved in the sense that you ask for them, you get them,
42:34
nobody needs to review and and approve, right?
42:38
And so you get it. And then there's a separate
42:41
decision that's application owners can make on whether they
42:44
are standing entitlement. So what they are ones that are
42:48
time bound or, or whatever that is right.
42:51
But it's sort of like, you know, this is what you must get and
42:55
and then therefore it is something that I as an
42:59
application or I have determined it is something that I don't
43:02
need to review it. It is something that I can
43:05
present as defensible to an auditor.
43:07
An auditor looks at it and goes, OK, here is your great, this is
43:10
your review. Here is this thing that you told
43:12
me these sort of people may have.
43:15
And that makes sense to me. I don't need to look at every
43:18
single granular entitlement or I may want to look at I'm an
43:22
auditor. I don't know what I'm going to
43:23
want to look at, right? Like, or I should rephrase.
43:25
The rest of us don't know what they're going to want to look
43:27
at. And you know, the, The funny
43:30
thing is that, you know, every auditor is different and, and
43:38
every auditor in every audit firm is different.
43:42
So, but at the end of the day, we think of it as like, I, I
43:46
don't really care, right? Like I want audit is a business
43:51
outcome that just got to happen, right?
43:54
Or other a successful audit is the business right the audit.
43:58
Can take place and that was. All it took to be successful.
44:00
I think we had a lot of happy people out there.
44:03
And so, so, you know, so making that defensible in an evidence
44:07
package that, hey, this is our practice, right?
44:11
And, and so that's sort of the shape of the, the solution.
44:15
I hope it logically sort of makes sense, you know, to all of
44:18
us. So, and then then, you know,
44:23
people get what they need. People can request what they
44:25
need. It doesn't get gunked up in, in
44:28
approval process. And then the reviews are
44:30
streamlined. So it's a, you know, deliver
44:33
value in, in all of these three different, different legs of the
44:41
stool, if you will, right. We've talked a lot about this,
44:44
this, this sounds like a, like a data thing, right?
44:47
Is we're pulling data. You've got all these connectors
44:49
that are in place already. And so you're, you're taking
44:51
that data and say, okay, here's here's what we think is, is what
44:55
should be. And I would imagine then some
44:58
IGA analysts or I am analysts would probably look at that day
45:01
and say, OK, do we need to maybe tweak our onboarding roles or do
45:05
we send this to the business and have them make a decision and
45:09
sort of help with that modelling process?
45:11
You talked about the auditor use case, which of course, they're
45:15
going to look at everything and sometimes they don't even know
45:17
what they're looking at. Sorry, that's my jab at at
45:19
auditors. But what about folks like Cisos?
45:23
I mean, I could imagine it'd be very powerful to get like their
45:25
data back to say, here's what my organization has and here's what
45:30
people have access to. And what are some of the
45:33
scenarios that you see like a CISA would take this data and
45:37
help reduce risk for their organization?
45:40
No, that's, that's a very good question, right.
45:41
So as a CSO, there's a bunch of different outcomes you would be
45:46
looking for. The risk reduction is clearly,
45:50
you know, clearly one that is, there's another outcome you want
45:53
is that you don't want, you want to be a partner for the business
45:58
and you want to enable the business and that means, you
46:03
know, being able to make people efficient and productive and so
46:06
on and so forth. So the other thing you wanna be,
46:09
of course, is you're responsible for a compliance outcome.
46:12
You wanna make sure that happens, right?
46:14
Because that is, again, a business outcome as far as
46:19
you're concerned. So as a CISO, you have to do all
46:25
of those things and then in, you know, in terms of risk, risk
46:29
reduction, getting people to least privilege in a manner that
46:33
doesn't in, you know, doesn't have them pulling their hair out
46:37
every time, right? I think that's that's an
46:39
important. So so sort of just evolving,
46:45
evolving this practice as they go.
46:47
I mean, it's interesting you put it the way you put it, Jeff,
46:51
which is that it's all about data.
46:52
I mean, isn't it amazing that the entire industry has done so
46:57
little with the data that we're just sitting on, right.
47:02
And and, and so that's, you know.
47:08
I feel like as an untapped resource that people really
47:11
aren't leveraging the organizations.
47:13
You know, it takes a while, right, for cycles to for, for,
47:16
you know, the organizational cycle for investment, right?
47:18
Identity access management tools typically are not very cheap and
47:22
it requires resources to run it. And so it takes time, right, to
47:25
get those tools in place. And you might have a good idea
47:27
now, but it really doesn't see adoption until five years, 10
47:31
years, whatever that upgrade cycle looks like.
47:33
But man, I mean, these organizations are sitting on a
47:35
treasure trove of data that could absolutely reduce risk.
47:38
And a tool like this sounds awesome to be able to say, hey,
47:41
what are we doing with that data?
47:43
Let's pull it back. Let's do something with that
47:46
data. I mean it doesn't do any good
47:48
sitting in a in a SIM or some other logging tool where it just
47:51
doesn't do anything until something bad happens like.
47:54
That's right, That's right. And and also, you know, let's be
47:57
more proactive and also be able to tap that data when you do
48:03
need to pay attention to something, right?
48:04
So I'll give you an example of, you know, the, the recent
48:08
incidents that happened around, around Snowflake, right?
48:12
And, and you know, if you, if you think about it, though, it
48:15
was essentially a chain of events where there happened to
48:19
be certain service accounts tied to Snowflake databases.
48:24
And these accounts didn't have MFA on them, right?
48:26
And so they were susceptible to passwords, spray attacks and
48:29
what have you, right? It's always the basics.
48:31
It was, it was really the basics, right?
48:33
And so if you think about it, when, when, when something like
48:38
now, first of all, you would think you want to be proactive
48:41
and you want to be able to catch this very, you know, very
48:47
proactive, right? So, so that's certainly one
48:49
outcome you want, which is, hey, if you have a risk reduction
48:53
strategy of having multi factor authentication across the board,
48:56
you as the CISO should be able to say, answer the question,
48:59
where are my risks associated with this lack of control,
49:03
right? But the other side is that when
49:05
an incident does happen, you should just simply be able to
49:09
ask the question, where does this affect my organization?
49:14
And I think a system like Zilla will and many of our customers
49:18
got that answer, you know, practically right away because,
49:24
because that data was there in their Zilla system, right?
49:27
And and at an enterprise scale and an enterprise security team
49:32
should be able to similarly answer the question well, which
49:35
one of the 1200 Snowflake instances we have across the
49:38
board that have this problem and what is the extent of that
49:41
problem, right. And that's also another
49:44
interesting, interesting dynamic that we'll see unfold over the
49:48
next few years in this industry at large, right, which is the,
49:52
the security threat detection threat hunting teams that have
49:56
sort of kind of stayed away from identity, right?
49:59
Like we're not bad people, but but but like the whole, you
50:05
know, having operationalizing this, this identity data as part
50:11
of the SEC OPS is also SEC OPS practice is also something we
50:15
will see evolve over the over the next few years.
50:18
Again, in part of what we all know as identity professionals
50:23
that it really is like increasingly going to be more
50:26
relevant for security. So, so Nitin, one of the things
50:31
that we end up debating on the show maybe every episode or at
50:36
least every other episode is where's identity 3-5 years down
50:42
the road? What's going to have the biggest
50:43
impact? And nine times out of 10, it's
50:47
AI. You guys aren't waiting five
50:49
years, right? You're you're getting some of
50:52
the benefit of that right now is Zeus we talked about today.
50:57
It seems like you, you know, if we just asked you the question,
51:00
what's going to be the biggest pack of impact on IGA five years
51:04
on the road, you would have said AI.
51:07
My question for you is, what's next?
51:09
What's the future for Zilla Security?
51:13
Yeah, you know, I mean the, the, the future for Zilla security,
51:17
we, we are, you know, we, we are really excited about this
51:23
particular space and, and, and the importance of identity as we
51:30
see in the future around security and and compliance and
51:34
everything else. So we really want to bring sort
51:41
of this modern automation centric approach to to bear on
51:48
the problem. And sometimes the solution calls
51:52
for creative uses of AI and ML like what we talked about.
51:56
Sometimes the solution calls for creative uses of different forms
52:00
of technology, like Zeus and and bringing it all together in a
52:06
simple, easy to use, intuitive interface, sort of pulling
52:12
together a complete solution. That's how we see, you know,
52:17
that's how we see us evolving, you know, not not building
52:22
techie solutions for techie's sake, right?
52:24
Where you have to go every integration of a Configurator to
52:26
bring up a JDBC driver, you got to go do this.
52:28
That like none of that, right? No other vertical does this.
52:33
I don't understand why. Why we we would or should.
52:38
I'd tell me a special like that. You know, we are very special.
52:42
So so that's sort of how you know, that's sort of how we see
52:45
it. And and so you'll see us bring
52:50
bring as appropriate AI to bear on the age-old integrations
52:55
problem. You'll see us bring it AI to
52:58
bear and other creative solutions to to the classic
53:02
roles problem. You'll see us do a lot more
53:05
automation in terms of helping the lives of, you know, people
53:10
who are worried about compliance easy.
53:13
And there's a lot there in in all of these three.
53:17
And then you'll see us helping the security and SEC OPS teams
53:21
with the Zilla product as the, you know, the spaces are just no
53:27
doubt meant to meant to get closer and closer.
53:33
So you're used to looking to the stars for inspiration and to
53:37
find out what's next. That was my very clever segue to
53:40
get into what I really. Want to ask you which is.
53:42
Astronomy. We were talking before we hit
53:45
the record button. You mentioned that you're a
53:47
amateur astronomer. Now I'm going to say you said
53:50
you're an amateur astronomer, but then you said I I was it Co
53:54
rent or Co own a telescope. OK, When you say I own a
54:00
telescope, that doesn't strike me as amateur.
54:03
Well, it's interesting, right? The, the, the professional
54:06
astronomers are the people who get PhDs and such and really,
54:09
you know, spend their day job, day job doing astronomy, whereas
54:15
we're day job doing identity and identity security and then as a
54:19
hobby doing astronomy. But yes, I think, you know,
54:24
there's, there's multiple very, very active astronomy clubs
54:28
throughout the country, no doubt.
54:30
But one of the oldest ones, he is here in the Boston area.
54:33
And believe it or not, at that time, 100 plus years ago when it
54:37
started, it was called the Amateur Telescope makers of
54:40
Boston. And so and so the name is stuck.
54:45
And you know, because back then, of course, making a telescope
54:48
was a big deal. There was no easy way to get one
54:52
and so so we joined that astronomy club all 20 plus years
54:57
ago, actually maybe 25 plus years ago so.
55:01
You're a long timer. Of of and, and we really enjoyed
55:05
being part of the Astronomy Club and we would go on long camping
55:11
trips in dark sky areas with the Astronomy Club north of Maine.
55:15
And, and then a few of us got together and purchased a
55:20
telescope that's, that's lovingly called a Godzilla.
55:25
And, and it has a 36 inch mirror, which is a very large
55:29
mirror, But you know, it's very impressive to kids because it
55:33
stands 15 feet tall, right? Like, so it's like, whoa, what
55:36
is this thing? And, and it's amazing it's in.
55:39
A trailer too, right? This is.
55:40
Not and it has its own trailer. That is correct.
55:43
It has its own trailer and it's a very, you know, it's
55:47
beautifully engineered with all the trusses and things.
55:50
Then you have to put it together and you've set it up and it
55:52
takes about an hour to set it up and, you know, a little less
55:56
than that to tear down. And so we would have a great
55:59
time with that. And I say we would because, you
56:03
know, in the intervening years, kids came along and astronomy
56:05
has been on a bit of a hiatus for a, for a period.
56:10
But that telescope is incredible.
56:13
It's the it's the largest telescope on the Eastern
56:15
seaboard here. Oh, wow.
56:17
So Boston is the birth place of IGA.
56:20
It has the biggest telescope on the Eastern seaboard.
56:22
I feel like there's like some, there's some grassroots moves
56:25
and each come here like can we get that written into like, I
56:27
don't know, the, the Constitution or something for
56:29
Massachusetts or something like that.
56:32
We should, right? The only thing Boston doesn't
56:34
have is is a is is weather. That is not very friendly to
56:39
doing astronomy right. As a Chicagoan, I can I can
56:43
absolutely empathize, that's why I'm from Chicago.
56:46
So. Ninton, I'm wondering, does the
56:49
light pollution of being in the Northeast and being near a big
56:53
city like Boston, does that affect your your amateur
56:57
astronomy? It absolutely does.
57:00
And in fact, it it gets worse year after year after year.
57:03
In fact, there is a, you know, one of my, you know, friends
57:08
from the Astronomy club is very, very passionate about, about
57:13
like pollution and so on, an advocate, advocate across
57:17
multiple towns. And, and you know, the tragedy
57:21
of all of this is that it doesn't have to be like this,
57:23
right? It's like, why would you take a,
57:26
a light and point it up when really you want to see what's on
57:29
the ground that you don't report?
57:33
So you'd think it would be, it would be the most common sense
57:36
thing to do, which is to have these full cut off lights that
57:38
are pointing to the ground and not necessarily leaking like to
57:41
the to the sky, But it is what it is.
57:45
And so, yes, you have to seek out, you know, darker skies and,
57:50
and it's amazing when you do and you can see the Milky Way in the
57:52
sky. It's unbelievable.
57:55
I mean, you can see that with the naked eye and places like
57:58
Utah, even I was on vacation in central Utah and just the you
58:03
can see the Milky Way and kind of like these clouds of I guess
58:09
there's gases in the universe that it's mind blowing.
58:15
You can. See in a dark state I guess is
58:20
the way to put it versus nearest city.
58:23
That's correct. It's mind blowing.
58:24
I mean, there's a bunch of things like this that are very
58:26
mind blowing when you look through a telescope.
58:28
I think the one that comes to my mind is something called the
58:31
Orion Nebula. You know, I don't know if you
58:33
ever, ever had a chance to see it.
58:35
It's sort of like in the Sword of Orion the Hunter.
58:38
And even if you take a decent pair of binoculars and point to
58:42
it, you can actually see what looks like a star is not a star,
58:45
right? And and through a telescope like
58:49
that, the one that we have, you can actually see an incredible
58:53
amount of detail. You can actually see like, you
58:56
know, like this fog around stars.
58:59
That fog is like has structure to it and, and it's amazing
59:04
because that's where stars are being born, right?
59:06
And so now it's like, Oh my God, like talk about blowing, you
59:09
know, your mind, right? Like stars are being born
59:12
because gas is coming together and with gravity and you can
59:15
actually see that. Yeah, I think what's also mind
59:19
blowing is like when you're looking at a star being born,
59:22
that might have been 5 billion years ago.
59:24
Exactly. That's right.
59:26
By the time that light actually reaches the Earth, that's how
59:31
long it takes. It could be on the decline by
59:33
now, yeah. That you might see the birth and
59:37
and end of it all in in a in a very flash of a pan or flash of
59:42
an eye, so to speak. Yeah, so I mean, my, I'm not an
59:47
astronomer as in hands on like Newton is, but I watched a lot
59:51
of these YouTube videos and, you know, with the the Hubble
59:55
telescope that was launched, what was it like 40-50 years ago
59:58
or something like that? The amount of things that
1:00:01
they're seeing now deep into the universe, they're starting to
1:00:04
have new understandings about the universe and things like
1:00:08
the. You know, I mean, if you go back
1:00:10
100 years, astronomers thought the extent of the universe was
1:00:15
what we call the Milky Way. Now it's the Galaxy that.
1:00:19
Our solar system is somewhere in the middle of it's one of what
1:00:25
is it millions or billions of galaxies?
1:00:30
This is totally mind blowing. Observable versus the
1:00:32
unobservable universe. Right.
1:00:34
Yeah, that's correct. You know, Hey, invite for you
1:00:37
guys. If you're ever in the Boston
1:00:38
Air, we'll find time to go find a dark, dark spot and and
1:00:43
hopefully the clouds will cooperate and we can go look at
1:00:45
some cool stuff through our telescope.
1:00:48
I will absolutely take you up on that, so be careful.
1:00:51
Cool, we can talk identity while we're at it.
1:00:54
Yeah, right. Well, let's be honest, identity
1:00:55
is still at the center no matter how many of these nebula and.
1:00:58
Galaxies. Are at identity is still at the
1:01:00
very center of all that. All right, let's go ahead and
1:01:05
wrap it up for this episode. Nitin, thank you so much for
1:01:08
sharing your time with us. It's been really great to kind
1:01:11
of catch up with you and really kind of understand where Zilla's
1:01:14
coming into this. I'll have links in our show
1:01:15
notes for people to connect with you on LinkedIn if they have
1:01:17
questions, whether it's about IGA or Zilla or astronomy.
1:01:21
Either way, I'm sure, I'm sure you're happy to engage on that.
1:01:25
Go out, visit the website zillasecurity.com, ZILLA,
1:01:29
security.com and of course you can always visit us on the web,
1:01:33
idacpodcast.com, we're on YouTube.
1:01:36
Come check out our YouTube channel.
1:01:38
You can see the faces of these conversations that are taking
1:01:41
place at idacpodcast.tv. That'll take you right to us.
1:01:44
So I think with that, we'll go ahead and leave it for this week
1:01:47
NIT and Jim, thank you so much for your guys time this week and
1:01:50
we'll talk with everyone else in the next one.
1:01:52
Thank you very much for having me, it's been a pleasure.
1:01:56
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
1:02:00
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
1:02:04
review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
1:02:08
website at identity@thecenter.com.
1:02:12
See you next time on Identity at the Center.