Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / She Never Came Home: The Lonnie Rogers Cold Case and a 44-Year Search for Truth

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She Never Came Home: The Lonnie Rogers Cold Case and a 44-Year Search for Truth · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Y'all. The new year is fast approaching, and I am
0:03
Speaker 1: telling you twenty twenty six, we got big plans over
0:07
Speaker 1: here at Zone seven. We are going back to once
0:11
Speaker 1: a week releases. Now listen before y'all get upset, Doctor
0:16
Speaker 1: Priya and Josh are going nowhere. What we're gonna do
0:21
Speaker 1: is once a month have them with us, and it's
0:25
Speaker 1: going to be incredible. But you also have the opportunity
0:31
Speaker 1: to meet them in person. In twenty twenty six, that's right, honey,
0:36
Speaker 1: we are hitting the road. Zone seven is teaming up
0:41
Speaker 1: with Body Bags and Crime Stories and we are doing
0:44
Speaker 1: a national tour called the ten eight Tour. We're kicking
0:49
Speaker 1: this thing off in Atlanta January twenty third, twenty twenty six,
0:55
Speaker 1: at the original Zone seven Manual's Tavern. Good stuff coming up,
1:01
Speaker 1: see y'all in twenty twenty six. It was not just
1:13
Speaker 1: snowing on January the seventh, nineteen eighty one, y'all, It
1:19
Speaker 1: was a blizzard. That's the night that Lonnie Rogers vanished,
1:26
Speaker 1: vanished from Hayfield Township, Pennsylvania. Her daughter Alison Dyker, always
1:33
Speaker 1: believed something horrible had to have happened to her. She
1:37
Speaker 1: knew her mama would not have left her and her brother.
1:43
Speaker 1: Even though she was little, she was only five or six.
1:47
Speaker 1: She knew that she knew that connection, She knew that
1:51
Speaker 1: love that cannot be denied. Alison knew that things were
1:57
Speaker 1: not right when she was told old her mom left
2:01
Speaker 1: behind her hearing aids, her glasses, her medication, and her car.
2:08
Speaker 1: Remember now it's a blizzard. Where is she going without
2:13
Speaker 1: those things and more importantly, without her children? Y'all, we
2:19
Speaker 1: have waited on this episode. I have wanted to talk
2:23
Speaker 1: to Alison for a long time, but we waited till
2:26
Speaker 1: it was right. And tonight is right, y'all. I have
2:32
Speaker 1: the privilege to welcome Alison Dyker to Zone seven. Alison,
2:38
Speaker 1: how are you, honey?
2:39
Speaker 2: I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. It's nice, absolutely.
2:43
Speaker 1: You know. I like to always start by you telling
2:48
Speaker 1: us about your mama.
2:51
Speaker 2: It has got a warm, fuzzy She was beautiful, beautiful
2:56
Speaker 2: blond blonde hair like golden blonde. She was always smiling
3:03
Speaker 2: and just a happy temperament like. People telled me that
3:10
Speaker 2: she would just light up a room like people would
3:12
Speaker 2: gravitate to her. And the most interesting thing is all
3:16
Speaker 2: of this would take place and she was deaf, so
3:21
Speaker 2: she could read lips, so she could still communicate and
3:29
Speaker 2: contribute to conversations. Even though it was difficult for her,
3:33
Speaker 2: it didn't make people or other It was also difficult
3:35
Speaker 2: for others, but it didn't make people shy away from her.
3:39
Speaker 2: I know now, like if I see someone or hear
3:42
Speaker 2: someone talking Spanish, I don't necessarily feel comfortable approaching them
3:46
Speaker 2: because I don't speak Spanish. But that was not the
3:50
Speaker 2: case for her. Even though she, you know, signed, people
3:56
Speaker 2: did not shy away from her. And what I hear
3:59
Speaker 2: from you know, when people tell me that they knew
4:02
Speaker 2: my mother, it's always that she was the shining, you know,
4:06
Speaker 2: ray of sunshine, and that she loved music, and she
4:10
Speaker 2: loved people, and she loved dancing. And you would, I'm sure,
4:14
Speaker 2: be surprised to hear dancing, but you know, they say
4:18
Speaker 2: that when you lose one sense, other senses are heightened.
4:22
Speaker 2: That she could feel the vibration of the music and
4:25
Speaker 2: truly feel the music like none other. And my grandfather,
4:32
Speaker 2: her father, was a dance instructor, and my mother was
4:36
Speaker 2: his partner. When he did lessons, he brought my mother
4:39
Speaker 2: along and she would help teach the lessons with my grandfather.
4:46
Speaker 1: That is remarkable. So she literally just had a light
4:50
Speaker 1: inside of her. And I'll be honest with you, I
4:52
Speaker 1: think it shows through the photographs.
4:55
Speaker 2: I believe that too. Like when I look, you know,
4:58
Speaker 2: I wrote a book, as you know, and the cover
5:00
Speaker 2: is is a picture of my mother holding like it's
5:03
Speaker 2: just a front of facial shots, and she's got her
5:07
Speaker 2: hands clasped together under her chin, and it looks like
5:10
Speaker 2: she's looking into your soul.
5:13
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but she does. She looks so beautiful. She
5:17
Speaker 1: always looks happy in the photographs. She always looks super
5:21
Speaker 1: put together. Yep. So tell us when did you decide
5:27
Speaker 1: to write the book A Daughter's Journey, a story of resilience?
5:31
Speaker 1: When did you decide to do that?
5:33
Speaker 2: So it was something that I had always kind of
5:35
Speaker 2: thought about in the back of my head. I always, like,
5:39
Speaker 2: in high school, I liked to journal, I wrote poems,
5:44
Speaker 2: did different journaling activities, and I always thought, like, in
5:51
Speaker 2: the back of my head, it might be kind of
5:52
Speaker 2: meat to write a book about this story and about
5:55
Speaker 2: you know, my journey. But I, you know, I just
5:59
Speaker 2: life gets in the way and you're busy, and you know,
6:01
Speaker 2: I went to college and got married, I had a
6:06
Speaker 2: private message from a woman who said her name is
6:11
Speaker 2: Suzanne Read and she wrote the book Anonymous Tip She
6:16
Speaker 2: Before she wrote that book, she reached out to me
6:19
Speaker 2: and said that she was writing a book about several
6:22
Speaker 2: missing person stories in Pennsylvania and did I would I
6:28
Speaker 2: grant her permission to include my mother's story in the book.
6:33
Speaker 2: And oddly enough, I felt two different ways. One I
6:38
Speaker 2: felt pride and absolutely please tell my mother's story, but
6:42
Speaker 2: the other part of me was kind of like, no,
6:46
Speaker 2: that's my job. Like I had this like this surprising
6:51
Speaker 2: reaction to well, you can tell a little bit of
6:53
Speaker 2: the story, you know, just an excerpt in your book,
6:56
Speaker 2: because in the back of my mind I had this
6:59
Speaker 2: like that I'm the one that's supposed to tell her story.
7:04
Speaker 2: And so shortly after her book was published, I wanted
7:09
Speaker 2: to start writing. But I have three very active children
7:14
Speaker 2: that I'm proud of all their sports and different things.
7:18
Speaker 2: But it's hard to find time. I'm also a teacher
7:22
Speaker 2: full time, so I'm a special ed teacher, so there's
7:25
Speaker 2: a lot of extra paperwork and things that have to happen,
7:28
Speaker 2: and I just never could find the time to sit
7:31
Speaker 2: and do it. And then COVID hit. So COVID year
7:36
Speaker 2: was the year I wrote the book, because we were
7:39
Speaker 2: home and everything was canceled, and if they were allowed
7:44
Speaker 2: to go somewhere, we weren't allowed to go in. I
7:47
Speaker 2: had to wait in the car, and only the you know,
7:49
Speaker 2: my child could go in. So there was a lot
7:52
Speaker 2: of wait time that happened in COVID. And oddly enough,
7:56
Speaker 2: that was also the fortieth anniversary of her disappearance. So
8:00
Speaker 2: I made a commitment to myself and to my mother
8:03
Speaker 2: that in that year, in that fortieth year of her disappearance,
8:08
Speaker 2: I was going to write this book. And I had
8:12
Speaker 2: no idea. I never wrote anything like that before, and
8:15
Speaker 2: I had no idea how long it would take. But
8:17
Speaker 2: I was determined that I was going to do everything
8:20
Speaker 2: I could to try to, you know, at least get
8:24
Speaker 2: a good chunk of this book done. I wanted it
8:28
Speaker 2: to be released on January seventh, which was the day
8:33
Speaker 2: of her disappearance, and I ended up releasing it in February,
8:39
Speaker 2: so I only missed the target by a little bit,
8:42
Speaker 2: but I got it out, and I sure did very
8:45
Speaker 2: proud of it.
8:46
Speaker 1: And you know, when you talk in the book about
8:48
Speaker 1: only being five and her tucking you in. I mean
8:52
Speaker 1: it just you're right there as a mama, like you
8:56
Speaker 1: know that routine almost like that's the time. The nighttime
9:00
Speaker 1: routine was I think one of the most important for
9:03
Speaker 1: me because it was quiet, It was just us. I could,
9:08
Speaker 1: you know, hear all about their day and everything they
9:11
Speaker 1: were excited about for tomorrow. And I always told my
9:15
Speaker 1: children I would kiss them good night twice, so they
9:18
Speaker 1: had an extra one, you know, so if I ever
9:21
Speaker 1: got called out to a scene or I wasn't there
9:23
Speaker 1: for some reason, one day, they had one. You know,
9:26
Speaker 1: it's fair. So even the way you started the book,
9:29
Speaker 1: you had me, and then you went into the thickness
9:32
Speaker 1: of this cold case file and you go into this
9:35
Speaker 1: journey that it is a journey of resilience that is
9:39
Speaker 1: properly named. But I tell you, y'all, you need to
9:43
Speaker 1: get the book. You need to hear what Allison went
9:47
Speaker 1: through because we ain't gonna be able to cover everything tonight,
9:50
Speaker 1: and you need to know every bit of it. So
9:53
Speaker 1: here's the thing. You knew who your dad was, You
9:58
Speaker 1: know what happened to you around fourteen. Tell everybody what
10:02
Speaker 1: happened after your mom went missing?
10:04
Speaker 2: Yes, so the night that she disappeared, my parents had
10:09
Speaker 2: been in an argument. You know, they were separated. He
10:14
Speaker 2: actually came back to the to the apartment to live,
10:18
Speaker 2: not to live, but to stay over the holiday. She
10:21
Speaker 2: felt really guilty about him not being around the kids
10:27
Speaker 2: for the holiday. And you know that the weather in
10:30
Speaker 2: that area is so horrendous. You know, it's in the winter.
10:34
Speaker 2: It is it is like the tundra, I say. And
10:38
Speaker 2: you know, for him to travel from his parents would
10:41
Speaker 2: have been a good half hour drive, and there was
10:44
Speaker 2: a big storm coming in, just as as would be
10:48
Speaker 2: the norm during that season. So she told him that
10:51
Speaker 2: we're not getting back together, but for the sake of
10:55
Speaker 2: the children, if you would like to come for the holidays,
10:58
Speaker 2: you can come and stay, but after the holidays.
11:01
Speaker 1: You have to leave.
11:03
Speaker 2: And he came. The holidays took place, and he refused
11:12
Speaker 2: to leave. He said, these are my kids, this is
11:16
Speaker 2: my home. I'm not leaving. They continue to argue day
11:20
Speaker 2: after day, and on the night of January January sixth,
11:30
Speaker 2: she just had had enough, and not the night, but
11:33
Speaker 2: the day she had had enough and knew he wasn't
11:35
Speaker 2: going to leave, and they were arguing. Things were not good.
11:40
Speaker 2: So She realized that it was going to have to
11:42
Speaker 2: be her that left, and she had already talked to
11:45
Speaker 2: my aunt, her sister about, you know, we should raise
11:48
Speaker 2: the kids together. I should you know, go. It was
11:52
Speaker 2: a four hour drive to where my aunt Glenny was
11:54
Speaker 2: living at the time, and they just decided over Thanksgiving
11:58
Speaker 2: that they should get together and my mom should move
12:02
Speaker 2: there with the kids and they would raise the kids together.
12:05
Speaker 2: So she went to my grandfather that day, so this
12:08
Speaker 2: is January sixth. She went to my grandfather's house and said,
12:13
Speaker 2: he won't leave, and you know, I need gas money,
12:17
Speaker 2: I need, you know, money to leave him, so to speak.
12:20
Speaker 2: And my grandfather said, we'll help you with whatever you need.
12:24
Speaker 2: He said, all I have right now is three twenty
12:27
Speaker 2: dollar bills and he is sixty dollars, and he handed
12:31
Speaker 2: her three twenty dollar bills. She you know, of course
12:35
Speaker 2: thanked him. At the time, in nineteen eighty one, that
12:38
Speaker 2: was probably a good chunk of change, you know, that
12:40
Speaker 2: probably went pretty far then. But she went home. They
12:47
Speaker 2: you know, had dinner together, arguing happened, and a lot
12:51
Speaker 2: of this, I know because we lived in a duplex
12:54
Speaker 2: and we were the upstairs family and there was a
12:57
Speaker 2: family underneath us, and that family reported to the police
13:01
Speaker 2: that there was a lot of yelling and banging and
13:05
Speaker 2: you know, unusual.
13:08
Speaker 1: Sounds, and both of your parents were hearing impaired. Yes,
13:13
Speaker 1: they so when they argued, you could tell it, oh.
13:17
Speaker 2: For sure, for sure. And a lot of that is
13:19
Speaker 2: like when they're arguing, they're like for someone who's deaf,
13:25
Speaker 2: to get each other's attention, they you know, bang on
13:28
Speaker 2: the floor and the vibration is felt and then you
13:31
Speaker 2: know they turn around to find out, you know, what
13:34
Speaker 2: is needed. But if you're arguing, you're not just like
13:38
Speaker 2: tapping the floor. You're probably you know, stomping because you're
13:41
Speaker 2: angry in addition to trying to get the person's attention.
13:44
Speaker 2: So there was a lot of noise because of the arguing.
13:47
Speaker 2: They also don't realize like how loud they're being, and
13:51
Speaker 2: you know, they're they're yelling at each other, but it's
13:54
Speaker 2: it's probably not words you hear. It's probably more like
13:58
Speaker 2: guttural sounds like yelling in brunts almost because their vocabulary
14:05
Speaker 2: or their words were not perfect, you know, and their communication.
14:10
Speaker 2: But anyway, so that night, she put the kids to
14:16
Speaker 2: bed on the back cover of my book. It's one
14:20
Speaker 2: of those that catches you, you know, right in the gut.
14:24
Speaker 2: I talk about her tucking me in for the very
14:26
Speaker 2: last time, and I had no idea, but she tucked
14:32
Speaker 2: me in and talked my brother in. They, you know,
14:36
Speaker 2: continued to argue. I heard them arguing, and sometime in
14:42
Speaker 2: the night my father claims that she left with another man,
14:47
Speaker 2: and or she left for another man, and he had
14:51
Speaker 2: no idea where she was. He woke us up at
14:54
Speaker 2: three o'clock in the morning, us meeting my brother and
14:58
Speaker 2: I who I was five in my b there was three.
15:01
Speaker 2: He woke us up and said, I have to take
15:04
Speaker 2: you to the babysitter. Your mother left us for a man.
15:08
Speaker 2: And you know, I just I helped get Aaron ready
15:12
Speaker 2: and off to the babysitter we went. That was three
15:14
Speaker 2: in the morning. He reported to work at six in
15:17
Speaker 2: the morning. Actually it was six oh six. He was
15:21
Speaker 2: six minutes late. And this was I know that sounds
15:23
Speaker 2: ridiculous because I'm late all the time for work, but
15:27
Speaker 2: you know, by minutes. But he was never, ever, ever,
15:30
Speaker 2: ever late. He was, if anything, he was early. So
15:33
Speaker 2: that was uncharacteristic of him. So it was odd he
15:40
Speaker 2: worked at a foundry where they like melted metal to
15:46
Speaker 2: make screws and nuts and bolts and things like that.
15:49
Speaker 1: So if he drove her somewhere, you're talking about an
15:52
Speaker 1: hour and a half somewhere and an hour and a
15:54
Speaker 1: half back to be at work.
15:55
Speaker 2: On top, there were three hours, you know, unaccounted for.
15:58
Speaker 2: He claimed that.
15:59
Speaker 1: He was the farthest he could drive is an hour
16:02
Speaker 1: and a half. Oh yes, right, okay, got you.
16:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was a blizzard that night, so there.
16:08
Speaker 1: Is also a blizzard. I mean that he couldn't get
16:10
Speaker 1: an hour and a half away mm hmm. Could he
16:13
Speaker 1: have disposed of her at his work?
16:16
Speaker 2: So that was a theory, But from what I was
16:20
Speaker 2: told from the police, that wasn't possible because like if
16:25
Speaker 2: you think of like a deep friar, you know, that's
16:28
Speaker 2: that's you know, molten oil. If you put water in there,
16:33
Speaker 2: it would like blow up, you know.
16:36
Speaker 1: Back yeah, okay.
16:37
Speaker 2: And the way it was explained to me is that
16:40
Speaker 2: is it's not possible because the human body is made
16:42
Speaker 2: of so much water that it would have shut the
16:45
Speaker 2: whole machine down.
16:47
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's fast forward a little bit. What happened
16:51
Speaker 1: when you were fourteen?
16:52
Speaker 2: So I my mother was just disappeared, didn't know where
16:57
Speaker 2: she was. But my brother and I were left to
17:00
Speaker 2: live with him, and we would go back and forth.
17:04
Speaker 2: You know, he would decide to be a father and
17:06
Speaker 2: then decide he doesn't want to be a father. He
17:08
Speaker 2: would drop us off at his sisters, my aunts to stay.
17:13
Speaker 2: We would my brother and I would like go to neighbors' houses,
17:17
Speaker 2: to you know, friends' houses. He could care less if
17:19
Speaker 2: we spent the night somewhere else he was gone a lot.
17:24
Speaker 2: Would stay with baby or I'm sorry, I would stay
17:27
Speaker 2: with his girlfriends and things like that, back and forth,
17:31
Speaker 2: back and forth. There were several times that children's services
17:34
Speaker 2: took us away because of abuse and neglect. Then we'd
17:38
Speaker 2: always be returned to him because he somehow was rehabilitated
17:43
Speaker 2: and worthy of raising children again. And it just the
17:47
Speaker 2: cycle just kept going and going and going until I
17:50
Speaker 2: was fourteen. And at fourteen, what happened was it was
17:56
Speaker 2: the day of my brother's birthday. Poor thing, probably the
17:59
Speaker 2: worst day of the life. So the day of my
18:03
Speaker 2: brother's birthday, my father drove a pickup truck and at
18:08
Speaker 2: that time, there was no such thing as a quad cab.
18:11
Speaker 2: It was a single cab with a like a truck bed,
18:17
Speaker 2: but no cover, you know, there was. It didn't have
18:21
Speaker 2: an enclosure, so to speak. It was just an open
18:23
Speaker 2: truck bed. And he invited his girlfriend to come out
18:28
Speaker 2: to go out to dinner to celebrate my brother's birthday.
18:31
Speaker 2: So the girlfriend gets in the truck, my father gets
18:33
Speaker 2: in the truck, My brother gets in the truck, and
18:35
Speaker 2: he tells me to get in the in the back
18:38
Speaker 2: of the truck, in the truck bed. You know, I'm upset.
18:42
Speaker 2: It's cold, it's leading rain, it's freezing cold, and it's
18:47
Speaker 2: a good twenty five minute drive into Eerie, where we
18:53
Speaker 2: were headed for dinner. So as we're driving and tears
18:57
Speaker 2: are freezing to my cheeks, I'm banging on the back
19:00
Speaker 2: of the window of the truck, you know, because I'm
19:03
Speaker 2: freezing and I am wanting warmth. He drives all the
19:08
Speaker 2: way to Erie, ignoring me crying and banging on the windows,
19:12
Speaker 2: pulls into Erie police station, and I thought, well, this
19:15
Speaker 2: is interesting because the last place I would think he'd
19:18
Speaker 2: want to go as a police station, because he was,
19:22
Speaker 2: you know, in trouble many times in his past. The
19:25
Speaker 2: last place he wanted to be was anywhere near police,
19:28
Speaker 2: so that was odd. But he got out and went
19:30
Speaker 2: into the police station, comes back out again. I thought
19:34
Speaker 2: was odd because he was deaf and most of the
19:38
Speaker 2: time I was his interpreter, so it was weird that
19:43
Speaker 2: he would have gone in on his own. But sure enough,
19:45
Speaker 2: he comes back out and he kind of finger motions
19:48
Speaker 2: me to come with him. So I get out of
19:51
Speaker 2: the truck, I go in with him, and a police
19:54
Speaker 2: officer is standing like right in the doorway. When I
19:58
Speaker 2: come in, he says, can you help explain to me
20:01
Speaker 2: what he's saying. So my father signs to me, tell
20:07
Speaker 2: him you're bad and I don't want you anymore. So
20:13
Speaker 2: I sign it to the police officer, and the police
20:18
Speaker 2: officer had this like you know, shocked faith, like please
20:25
Speaker 2: tell him that you he can't just drop kids here,
20:29
Speaker 2: like this isn't the place to just drop kids. We
20:33
Speaker 2: don't do that here. He has to take you home.
20:36
Speaker 2: We'll get you help, but he can't leave you here.
20:38
Speaker 2: So I then, you know, of course, interpret that back
20:41
Speaker 2: to my father. My father interprets to me to tell
20:45
Speaker 2: him that he's not doing that. He's not taking me home.
20:49
Speaker 2: He doesn't care what happens to me. So the police
20:53
Speaker 2: officer says to me, well, do you know anyone that
20:57
Speaker 2: you could stay with? And I said no, I mean
21:01
Speaker 2: you could call my aunt, his sister. She's the one
21:04
Speaker 2: that they always take us to, you know, and we're
21:07
Speaker 2: taken away.
21:08
Speaker 3: So he.
21:10
Speaker 2: Calls her and she says, tell him to figure it out.
21:15
Speaker 2: We're done having him drop off the kids here. He
21:19
Speaker 2: needs to figure it out. And she wouldn't let me
21:23
Speaker 2: go there. So I didn't know what to tell him,
21:27
Speaker 2: you know. The police officer says, anybody else, and I
21:29
Speaker 2: said no, you know, I'm fourteen. I don't know where
21:33
Speaker 2: else to go, And just out of anxiety and nervousness,
21:38
Speaker 2: I shoved my hands in my pocket, like I don't know,
21:41
Speaker 2: and I felt a piece of paper. Now, earlier in
21:44
Speaker 2: that day, I was in eighth grade, and earlier in
21:46
Speaker 2: that day, the guidance counselor, who was part time guidance,
21:50
Speaker 2: part time math teacher, she was my math teacher, also
21:56
Speaker 2: had called me to her office, the guidance office, because
21:59
Speaker 2: she knew if I was I had gone to that
22:02
Speaker 2: school district three years prior and she was involved in
22:06
Speaker 2: my case and we were taken away, so she knew
22:10
Speaker 2: if I was back with him, it was not good.
22:13
Speaker 2: So she called me into her office to ask me
22:16
Speaker 2: how I was doing. Is everything okay? And at that
22:20
Speaker 2: point I had for fourteen well for nine years, I
22:25
Speaker 2: had gone from place to place to place, and it
22:27
Speaker 2: didn't matter what I said. So I really wasn't cooperative
22:31
Speaker 2: because I didn't feel like it mattered how I felt.
22:34
Speaker 2: So I didn't really say much to her. You know,
22:38
Speaker 2: I'm fine, I'm fine. And then she sent me back
22:40
Speaker 2: to class. But before she sent me back to class,
22:43
Speaker 2: she wrote her name and phone number on a piece
22:46
Speaker 2: of paper and she handed it to me and said,
22:50
Speaker 2: if you ever need anything day night, I don't care.
22:53
Speaker 2: This is my home phone number.
22:55
Speaker 1: You call me.
22:56
Speaker 2: And I thought, oh okay, sure my teacher won me
23:00
Speaker 2: to call her, and I shoved in my pocket right
23:03
Speaker 2: you know by my guidance counselor slash math teacher. Well
23:08
Speaker 2: that night was the night that all of this happened
23:11
Speaker 2: at the police station.
23:13
Speaker 1: What a miracle? What can you believe?
23:15
Speaker 2: It is not insane?
23:18
Speaker 1: And I've heard the story before, but every time you've
23:21
Speaker 1: told me that, even when I read it, but you
23:24
Speaker 1: told me the first time we ever talked, I still
23:26
Speaker 1: get chills thinking what a who does that? Who does that?
23:32
Speaker 1: And then the timing of it, yep, yep, I'm sorry,
23:36
Speaker 1: go ahead, exact day, the exact day.
23:40
Speaker 2: It's insane that.
23:42
Speaker 1: You were going to need somebody more than ever.
23:44
Speaker 2: Right, Well, you know what that was divine intervention.
23:49
Speaker 1: Now that's a hand of God moment.
23:53
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So I han't. I feel the paper and I say,
23:58
Speaker 2: I'm kind of you know, being smart, you know, and
24:02
Speaker 2: I said to the police officer, here, so here's here's
24:07
Speaker 2: my teacher's phone number. She told me today that if
24:10
Speaker 2: I needed anything day or night, I should call her.
24:14
Speaker 2: I guess now's as good a time as any. So
24:18
Speaker 2: he's going to look him in, right, and he's kind
24:21
Speaker 2: of looking at me like you've got to be kidding me,
24:24
Speaker 2: like this is her?
24:25
Speaker 1: But he did.
24:26
Speaker 2: He called her, and you know, I'm I didn't. I
24:30
Speaker 2: didn't really know what I expected, but it was kind
24:33
Speaker 2: of like buy in time, like I don't know what
24:36
Speaker 2: else to say. So he called her and he comes
24:40
Speaker 2: back out and I'm thinking, oh, great, this ought to
24:43
Speaker 2: be good, you know, expecting you know, more disappointment, and
24:47
Speaker 2: I don't know what, and he said, she's on her way.
24:52
Speaker 1: Oh, he's not insane.
24:55
Speaker 2: So she came and got me. She came and got me.
25:00
Speaker 2: I stayed with them for a period of time. We
25:03
Speaker 2: went to they got legal custody of me, and then
25:08
Speaker 2: after some time, a few months or so, the social
25:13
Speaker 2: worker that was involved with the case had said to
25:20
Speaker 2: the family that if they wanted, that's when they got
25:25
Speaker 2: legal custody. You know, that they could get legal custody
25:27
Speaker 2: if they wanted. So her name was Judy Dinsmore and
25:32
Speaker 2: his name was William Dinsmore. Bill and Judy very well
25:36
Speaker 2: known in their area. They approached me and said, would
25:43
Speaker 2: you like to make this, you know, for forever, you know,
25:49
Speaker 2: would you like to be part of our family? And
25:52
Speaker 2: I was like absolutely, like the idea that I had
25:57
Speaker 2: a roof over my head, that I wouldn't be more
26:00
Speaker 2: moving again and again, the fact that I would have food,
26:05
Speaker 2: that I would have meals, you know, I didn't have
26:08
Speaker 2: to go to a laundry met they actually had a
26:11
Speaker 2: washroom dryer in their house. I would have my own bedroom.
26:15
Speaker 2: What you know, They're just it was so crazy, but
26:18
Speaker 2: of course I was so very grateful and that they
26:24
Speaker 2: they thought we went to court and all those things,
26:26
Speaker 2: and they got custody of me and I stayed with
26:31
Speaker 2: them for the next four years, so all of my
26:33
Speaker 2: high school years was in their care. And during those
26:37
Speaker 2: four years, you know, I really believe that a lot
26:40
Speaker 2: of who I've been able to become and the resilience
26:44
Speaker 2: that was within me was nurtured by them. Because had
26:49
Speaker 2: I not been given a different message in those four
26:53
Speaker 2: years before I went off to college, I don't I
26:56
Speaker 2: don't know where I would be. I mean, they didn't
26:58
Speaker 2: tell me I was garbage. They didn't tell me that
27:02
Speaker 2: they didn't want me, or that I was worthless or anything.
27:05
Speaker 2: They told me the exact opposite and said, You're going
27:09
Speaker 2: to be somebody. You know, we put this work into
27:11
Speaker 2: you because you were worth it, and you were going
27:14
Speaker 2: to go out and become somebody.
27:17
Speaker 1: And you're not just a teacher. You're a special education teacher. Yes,
27:24
Speaker 1: you yourself gravitate to those kids that other people find difficult.
27:30
Speaker 1: Other people don't want to necessarily put the time in.
27:33
Speaker 1: It's a lot of work, but it's a lot of
27:36
Speaker 1: love and you get it back well.
27:37
Speaker 2: And I feel like I was destined. I mean, again,
27:41
Speaker 2: a lot of who I am is because of the
27:43
Speaker 2: teachers who took an interest in me along the way,
27:45
Speaker 2: and I absolutely had to pay that forward. I'm honored
27:49
Speaker 2: to pay that forward and love on my students the
27:52
Speaker 2: way I was loved one.
27:58
Speaker 1: You reached out to me years ago and said, hey,
28:03
Speaker 1: you know, I know about the Cold Case Institute. You
28:05
Speaker 1: think you could help me, And you told me the story,
28:08
Speaker 1: just like you've done tonight, and I said, well, let
28:12
Speaker 1: me look into it. I'm not sure what I can do.
28:15
Speaker 1: You and I both were super upfront and honest with
28:18
Speaker 1: each other. We both believed we knew who did it,
28:23
Speaker 1: but I wasn't sure what I could do because we
28:26
Speaker 1: didn't have a body, there was a lot of evidence,
28:28
Speaker 1: we didn't have a lot of things we didn't know.
28:31
Speaker 1: So I thought, well, let me think about it. And
28:34
Speaker 1: something came to me because every time I talk to you,
28:37
Speaker 1: you would say things like I think I can't really
28:40
Speaker 1: remember this, maybe that I don't know. You would say
28:45
Speaker 1: those types of things to me, So I thought, you
28:47
Speaker 1: know what, I'm just gonna throw this at her and
28:51
Speaker 1: let's see what she says. And I said, hey, you know, Alison,
28:54
Speaker 1: I've got a crazy thought and I just want to
28:56
Speaker 1: see if you're open to it. And You were like, what, girl,
28:59
Speaker 1: what do you got? I'm up for anything. I said, well,
29:02
Speaker 1: I think hypnosis might help you, maybe some of your stuff.
29:06
Speaker 1: You have suppressed it and hidden it to save yourself.
29:11
Speaker 1: And honey, you were like, I'm gonna jump on a plane.
29:14
Speaker 1: I'm coming to Atlanta. Let's do this thing. But this
29:17
Speaker 1: is where it gets another hand of God moment. I
29:21
Speaker 1: didn't know a hypnotist, but I thought, well, nothing ventured, right,
29:28
Speaker 1: So I call this woman, Monica Miller. I had never
29:32
Speaker 1: met her. She had no idea who I was, no
29:36
Speaker 1: idea who Allison was. And I thought, if I can
29:39
Speaker 1: keep talking, maybe I can convince her. Well, I didn't
29:45
Speaker 1: have to keep talking. She was lovely and she was like,
29:50
Speaker 1: if there's somebody that needs my help, I'm going to
29:53
Speaker 1: help them. Can you get her to Atlanta? I said, girl,
29:56
Speaker 1: she's on a plane, she's already coming. And you know
30:00
Speaker 1: what struck me about Monica was this woman went to
30:05
Speaker 1: the University of Florida. She worked in finance, but then
30:10
Speaker 1: she decided, you know what, I need to help people.
30:13
Speaker 1: I need to help people on a different level. And
30:16
Speaker 1: she changed the course of her career. And so not
30:21
Speaker 1: only did I reach out to her and get a yes,
30:24
Speaker 1: which was crazy. She didn't charge anybody, she didn't want
30:30
Speaker 1: any money, she didn't even want no credit. And I thought,
30:35
Speaker 1: this is an incredible person and this is who Alison needs.
30:39
Speaker 1: So I pick her up from the airport. We go
30:42
Speaker 1: straight to Monica's office. Y'all. The first thing this woman does.
30:49
Speaker 1: If any of y'all have ever had like a really good,
30:52
Speaker 1: expensive professional massage, you know how you walk in and
30:55
Speaker 1: the lighting is perfect, and they've got some you know, fabuls,
31:00
Speaker 1: the candles going in some fantastic sin you know what
31:03
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Like you know you're in the right place.
31:07
Speaker 1: That's how her room felt. But she not only invited
31:10
Speaker 1: Alison in, she invited me so I could see it,
31:14
Speaker 1: so I could understand. This is for comfort. She is
31:18
Speaker 1: safe here, this is a place she can relax and
31:21
Speaker 1: if she's got any memories, honey, they're gonna come about.
31:25
Speaker 1: So Alison and I thought it would be great tonight
31:29
Speaker 1: if y'all could straight here from Monica Miller. So it
31:33
Speaker 1: is a absolute honor for me to welcome Monica Miller
31:39
Speaker 1: to Zone seven.
31:41
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me.
31:43
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? I mean, Monica, I witnessed something that
31:47
Speaker 1: to this day when I tell the story, knocks people
31:50
Speaker 1: out because, y'all, here's another cool thing about Monica. I
31:53
Speaker 1: was in the waiting room and I thought, well, I say,
31:56
Speaker 1: waiting room, lobby, whatever it was. I felt like, this
31:59
Speaker 1: person that I care about is gone in there for
32:01
Speaker 1: some type of procedure and I'm waiting to see whether
32:04
Speaker 1: or not it's going to work. Well, you know, I
32:06
Speaker 1: don't know if it's going to be forty minutes or
32:07
Speaker 1: two hours or five hours. I have no idea. Well,
32:11
Speaker 1: Monica was so fantastic. She texted me the whole time.
32:16
Speaker 1: And Monica, I got to tell you, I thought that
32:18
Speaker 1: was super thoughtful of you too, not to leave me
32:21
Speaker 1: hanging and not like, well, I don't know if she's
32:26
Speaker 1: remembering something horrible and needs some type of comfort. Is
32:29
Speaker 1: she going to hold her hand or is it not
32:31
Speaker 1: working and she's going to be super disappointed? Like I
32:34
Speaker 1: needed some type of heads up. But you were just fantastic.
32:39
Speaker 3: Oh well, I'm glad that was helpful. You know, the sessions,
32:43
Speaker 3: the way I work with people can be so deep.
32:45
Speaker 3: It's really hard to put a clock on it or
32:48
Speaker 3: a timer. So if there's a family member or you know,
32:53
Speaker 3: sometimes it's a it's a younger person or a concerned relative.
32:58
Speaker 3: I'll say, Okay, it's going to be like around three hours.
33:00
Speaker 3: But then if it moves, if the needle moves longer
33:03
Speaker 3: or shorter, I try to let everyone know because it
33:06
Speaker 3: is really a waiting game where you're like, are they okay?
33:08
Speaker 3: Did she kidnap them?
33:09
Speaker 1: Right? Right?
33:11
Speaker 3: Because remember it, Alison, it went it went closer to
33:14
Speaker 3: almost four hours.
33:15
Speaker 1: Well it did?
33:15
Speaker 4: It?
33:16
Speaker 1: Sure did, That's what I was going to say. And
33:17
Speaker 1: it was just a comfort to me, you know. And
33:22
Speaker 1: here's the way I've described this, and Monica you jump
33:24
Speaker 1: in and correct me, but this is the way I
33:27
Speaker 1: kind of saw it. All of us have memories, and
33:31
Speaker 1: you may have a memory from fourth grade or twelfth grade.
33:34
Speaker 1: You'll never remember it, but then a song will come on,
33:38
Speaker 1: or you'll smell something, or you'll see something and you're like, oh,
33:42
Speaker 1: I remember that, Like it takes you right back. So
33:46
Speaker 1: everybody sub level has got memories that if the right
33:50
Speaker 1: thing comes about, you're going to remember it immediately. Is
33:54
Speaker 1: that accurate?
33:55
Speaker 3: It's a what a perfect description of how hypnosis can work,
33:59
Speaker 3: because you just you get into that timeline or that space,
34:03
Speaker 3: or even the feeling. You know, it can be a feeling.
34:07
Speaker 3: Oftentimes people are coming to me for something different, like
34:09
Speaker 3: an emotional struggle. If you trace the feeling and the
34:11
Speaker 3: body back to what started it, and that's what you
34:15
Speaker 3: know we were doing that day with Alison. It's like,
34:18
Speaker 3: let's trace you back to this moment in time and
34:21
Speaker 3: then open that up and expand it.
34:25
Speaker 1: Know. But trauma, I mean, whether it's sexual assault, child abuse,
34:30
Speaker 1: your mother being murdered, whatever it is, You're going to
34:35
Speaker 1: have memories that maybe you don't even allow yourself. I'm
34:39
Speaker 1: not going there. I'm not going to think about it.
34:41
Speaker 1: If I start to think about it, I'm gonna do
34:42
Speaker 1: something different. I'm gonna sing a song. I'm'll go for
34:46
Speaker 1: a jog, I'm gonna pat a dog. I'm gonna do
34:49
Speaker 1: something so I don't have to remember it. But it
34:52
Speaker 1: is there, and you got her in a quiet, beautiful
34:56
Speaker 1: space with perfect just lights sounds. I mean, I thought
35:02
Speaker 1: it was if it was ever gonna work, it was
35:04
Speaker 1: gonna work with you. That's all I can tell you.
35:08
Speaker 3: I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad you both had that
35:11
Speaker 3: trust in me, you know, it's for me if i'm
35:14
Speaker 3: you know, I get it from my grandfather. I don't
35:17
Speaker 3: say yes to something if I'm not going to do
35:19
Speaker 3: it to the absolute best of my ability. I don't.
35:23
Speaker 3: I don't, you know, go halfway into things. So if
35:26
Speaker 3: I say I'm going to help, I'm going to do
35:28
Speaker 3: everything I can that's within my abilities to help.
35:32
Speaker 1: Well, you did, and I think that you know, you've
35:35
Speaker 1: got other expertise, like with yoga and whatnot. And I
35:40
Speaker 1: think when people are super in tune to mind, body
35:45
Speaker 1: and spirit, it can show. And I think again, I
35:51
Speaker 1: don't know how to really say what this experience was
35:54
Speaker 1: for me, other than to say I knew instantly watching
35:59
Speaker 1: the two with y'all that it was going to work.
36:03
Speaker 1: I knew it. So Alison, why don't you tell everybody
36:06
Speaker 1: what happened, what came from it?
36:08
Speaker 2: Well, I want to say, I you know, I was
36:10
Speaker 2: super nervous to do this, but with this case, I
36:14
Speaker 2: was willing to do anything. Just the way you described
36:17
Speaker 2: it is exactly how I felt at that point. I
36:20
Speaker 2: had been toying with that idea. Several people had had
36:26
Speaker 2: mentioned maybe you should do hypnotism, but I was too afraid.
36:29
Speaker 2: I was too afraid to take that step because I
36:32
Speaker 2: didn't know what was locked in that head, and I
36:36
Speaker 2: felt like I was five, almost six. I was their ears.
36:41
Speaker 2: The chances of me seeing or hearing something are pretty high,
36:45
Speaker 2: and I wasn't sure if I really did or not.
36:49
Speaker 2: Going there, I was super anxious and nervous because I
36:53
Speaker 2: what was about to take place. But as soon as
36:55
Speaker 2: I got into her room, it was exactly the way
36:59
Speaker 2: you described it.
37:00
Speaker 1: It was.
37:01
Speaker 2: It was calm and peaceful and quiet. It was serene,
37:06
Speaker 2: you know, the lighting was perfect. It just made you
37:08
Speaker 2: feel like you're walking into a big hug.
37:11
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, I.
37:13
Speaker 2: Didn't feel nervous anymore walking into that office. I you know,
37:17
Speaker 2: I sat down, you know, and got comfortable, and we got.
37:21
Speaker 1: Right at it.
37:22
Speaker 2: I don't think right at very long.
37:24
Speaker 1: It wasn't long for my phone ding I had a
37:26
Speaker 1: text from her and Monica. I got to tell you.
37:29
Speaker 1: I remember even making a joke after you were so
37:32
Speaker 1: gracious to let me come in and got to see
37:35
Speaker 1: everything and laid out how it was going to operate.
37:38
Speaker 1: I remember joking with you, I don't want to leave.
37:40
Speaker 1: I want to stay in this room and just relax.
37:43
Speaker 1: You're next to them because it was just that welcoming
37:48
Speaker 1: and that calming.
37:49
Speaker 2: It was.
37:50
Speaker 1: It was unbelievable. But Monica, why don't you walk through
37:54
Speaker 1: a little bit of how you work? Like just like
37:58
Speaker 1: we know because we were there, but like, what did
38:00
Speaker 1: your process?
38:01
Speaker 3: Well? So for this particular case, I knew we were
38:04
Speaker 3: going back to a time and date. So you know,
38:07
Speaker 3: oftentimes I'm working with someone and say it's you know,
38:10
Speaker 3: for you know, confidence or anxiety or panic stuff, which
38:13
Speaker 3: is pretty common on my schedule, we're going with a feeling.
38:17
Speaker 3: Well with Allison, we had to go to a time
38:19
Speaker 3: and day, so it was really taking a direct timeline
38:23
Speaker 3: back to that night. And a funny thing that happened
38:27
Speaker 3: when you both arrived is y'all surprised me. I had
38:31
Speaker 3: no idea that Allison was a CODA, a child of
38:34
Speaker 3: deaf adults. So I then instantly, right there in the lobby,
38:40
Speaker 3: I looked at you, Cheryl, and I was like, uh, information,
38:43
Speaker 3: that would have been good to know because and I
38:47
Speaker 3: joked with you and I'm like, I'm like, you're lucky
38:50
Speaker 3: you showed up to me because because I was like,
38:53
Speaker 3: we are going to have to handle this differently because
38:55
Speaker 3: I knew instantly that Alison telling me, you know, was
39:00
Speaker 3: about five years old. I'm like, you became their ears
39:02
Speaker 3: and their translator. And I knew that would be how
39:05
Speaker 3: her life was lived up into that point. And I
39:08
Speaker 3: also knew that whatever we went back and found that
39:12
Speaker 3: it wouldn't be a kid listening through the wall to
39:15
Speaker 3: hear words like if you don't shut up, I'm gonna
39:18
Speaker 3: but you know, she's not gonna have that. So I
39:22
Speaker 3: knew that the information that we would get would come
39:25
Speaker 3: differently because she saw the world and hurt it differently
39:32
Speaker 3: than her parents.
39:33
Speaker 1: Oh that's a great point. That's a great point.
39:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that really had to be taken into consideration,
39:41
Speaker 3: and and I knew Alison was nervous. So part of
39:45
Speaker 3: my process is, you know, really know the whole story
39:49
Speaker 3: as much as I can for the event or the
39:52
Speaker 3: feeling or the issue we're trying to resolve, know everything
39:54
Speaker 3: around it and all the key players. So in this
39:58
Speaker 3: the key players is Alison, her brother, her mom, her dad,
40:03
Speaker 3: because this is a night of and on top of that,
40:06
Speaker 3: I know that generally if someone hasn't done hypnosis before,
40:11
Speaker 3: they're going to be anxious or nervous, and excitement also
40:14
Speaker 3: can feel the same as anxiety or nervousness, so there
40:18
Speaker 3: could be a part that they're excited about, but also
40:20
Speaker 3: because it's unknown, it comes off as anxiety or nervousness.
40:26
Speaker 3: Is to say to someone a line I use often
40:30
Speaker 3: and I used it with Alison. I'm like, the worst
40:32
Speaker 3: thing you've ever been through in your whole entire life
40:34
Speaker 3: up until this moment, right here and right now, you've
40:37
Speaker 3: been through it, and here you are. You've made it.
40:39
Speaker 3: So we know there's nowhere to go but up, and
40:42
Speaker 3: there's nothing to do but find out more information than
40:45
Speaker 3: perhaps you're aware that you know. And the mind is
40:49
Speaker 3: like a black box. It'll lock things in and if
40:52
Speaker 3: it's part of a traumatic event, it might push that
40:55
Speaker 3: away because it's to protect you. And so our deal
40:58
Speaker 3: that day was, let's do everything to find a place
41:02
Speaker 3: of safety and comfort, of interest and curiosity to pull
41:07
Speaker 3: out data that might have been sort of stuffed away
41:09
Speaker 3: in the subconscious mind. Let's see if we can work
41:11
Speaker 3: together to pick this lock. And so that's often how
41:14
Speaker 3: I work with that kind of stuff in mind. And Alison,
41:18
Speaker 3: it did a really cool thing. She brought the book in.
41:20
Speaker 3: Do you remember that, Alison, you brought the book in
41:23
Speaker 3: my book. Yeah, you brought it in, you showed it
41:26
Speaker 3: to me.
41:26
Speaker 1: Oh I forgot that.
41:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really important part because you went to
41:31
Speaker 3: put it away. I said no, no, no, no, don't
41:33
Speaker 3: put it away. I sat it on the console. I
41:36
Speaker 3: left it sitting upright and open. And your book was
41:40
Speaker 3: staring at us the whole time.
41:42
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
41:43
Speaker 2: And the cover of that book is my mother's face
41:45
Speaker 2: and it looks like she's looking at you.
41:47
Speaker 3: Yes, And the cover of that book told more of
41:51
Speaker 3: the story that you had somehow within you known, because
41:56
Speaker 3: it's what led you to pick that picture. And we
41:58
Speaker 3: talked about that in the end, which was really cool.
42:00
Speaker 3: But we let yeah, we had the book standing up
42:03
Speaker 3: there as a part of the process, like let her
42:05
Speaker 3: in on this, let her be here. I mean, she's
42:08
Speaker 3: you got the note in your pocket.
42:10
Speaker 1: That's right, amen, Amen, she's how you.
42:13
Speaker 3: Got that note in your pocket. You know, when people
42:16
Speaker 3: leave us, there's the you know, energy can't be created
42:19
Speaker 3: or destroyed. They just go into a different form, often
42:22
Speaker 3: not the like spooky gy ghost thing, but they go
42:25
Speaker 3: into a different form. And in her own way, she's
42:28
Speaker 3: still around, and you know, she placed something into the
42:33
Speaker 3: heart and the mind of your teacher that day, and
42:35
Speaker 3: that's how on that day you got the note. And
42:37
Speaker 3: so things like that are the reason why I'm like,
42:39
Speaker 3: let her like, let her be a part of this,
42:41
Speaker 3: let her hang out, let's see what happens.
42:43
Speaker 1: You want to know something crazy, Well, of course I do.
42:47
Speaker 2: I have the book sitting right here next to me
42:50
Speaker 2: in case they have to reference it. And she's looking
42:53
Speaker 2: at me right now while we're having yeah, oh my.
42:56
Speaker 1: Gosh, yeah, yeah, it happens. It happens, absolutely, and you know,
43:02
Speaker 1: it's one of those things. And Monica, I'm sure you
43:05
Speaker 1: know this, but Alison, I don't know if you do.
43:07
Speaker 1: But the FBI actually trains their folks if they're stuck
43:12
Speaker 1: on a case or they can't get past some type
43:14
Speaker 1: of point in an investigation, to literally sit still in
43:20
Speaker 1: a quiet place. They even encourage people go sit in
43:24
Speaker 1: your closet like no windows, no distractions, get steal and
43:30
Speaker 1: get quiet and you may have an epiphany. So on
43:35
Speaker 1: every level, this works. I mean, it just does if
43:40
Speaker 1: you allow it to work and you're with somebody that
43:42
Speaker 1: can help you, like Monica did. Because again, it wasn't
43:47
Speaker 1: long before I got that first text message, and then
43:51
Speaker 1: it wasn't long before my phone was ding ding ding,
43:55
Speaker 1: So things were happening and she was keeping me updated.
43:58
Speaker 1: But do you want to tell some folks about the
44:01
Speaker 1: snow on the car?
44:03
Speaker 2: I want to say I was cut a little skeptical
44:06
Speaker 2: going into this too, Like I totally wanted it to
44:09
Speaker 2: work and was willing to do the work and whatever
44:13
Speaker 2: needed to be done, but I wasn't sure what I
44:16
Speaker 2: thought or believed about hypnosis, Like I don't know, you know,
44:20
Speaker 2: kind of sounds hokey, but hopefully it works. So I
44:23
Speaker 2: was open to it, but wasn't convinced that I would
44:27
Speaker 2: have results. So it was a very pleasant surprise. I
44:33
Speaker 2: would say that I felt like I was just relaxing,
44:39
Speaker 2: you know, I was just I think you even said that, Monica.
44:43
Speaker 2: You were like just relax, you know, and leat and whatever,
44:49
Speaker 2: and to kind of fast forward to what you were
44:52
Speaker 2: just mentioning the snow. I often felt felt like or
44:57
Speaker 2: I often had memories of random things like we all do,
45:03
Speaker 2: and I wasn't really sure where it fit in my life,
45:08
Speaker 2: you know, in the timeline, I didn't know where things fit.
45:12
Speaker 2: And I guess, like when I have talked about this,
45:17
Speaker 2: process and this experience I have said that it's not like,
45:22
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this you know, thing came out of
45:24
Speaker 2: nowhere and I remembered something, And maybe it is for
45:28
Speaker 2: other people, It just that wasn't it for me. I
45:31
Speaker 2: felt like you walked me step by step by step,
45:35
Speaker 2: you know, holding my hand all the way through it
45:39
Speaker 2: and said, then what happened? Then what happened? So I
45:42
Speaker 2: felt like the memories that I had were put in
45:45
Speaker 2: time order, and when I was done, I was like,
45:50
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I didn't realize that's where that memory fit.
45:55
Speaker 2: And when we were going through the process, I had
45:59
Speaker 2: remembered like my mother had this cool, you know, blue
46:04
Speaker 2: Mustang and it was like a sports car and in
46:08
Speaker 2: the winner, she didn't really drive it that much for
46:10
Speaker 2: obvious reasons, and I remembered there was snow on the
46:14
Speaker 2: back of the the back of her car, and I
46:18
Speaker 2: just didn't realize that it was that night that that
46:23
Speaker 2: memory came through. And the only way I was able
46:26
Speaker 2: to like time order that was because you took me
46:29
Speaker 2: step by step. And you know, I remember saying, you know,
46:33
Speaker 2: like he brought us down the stairs. It was you know,
46:36
Speaker 2: he was holding aaron, you know in his arms, holding
46:39
Speaker 2: my hand, taking us down the stairs, and that I
46:42
Speaker 2: looked at the at her car before we got into
46:46
Speaker 2: his car, his Bronco, and I noticed that there was
46:52
Speaker 2: snow off the back of the car, like the trunk,
46:57
Speaker 2: so to speak. And I I remembered that because it
47:02
Speaker 2: was snowing like crazy, and I could tell how much
47:05
Speaker 2: snow had fallen because there was like a ledge, like
47:08
Speaker 2: when you wipe off a ton of snow, there's like,
47:12
Speaker 2: you know, a ledge of snow, so you could see
47:14
Speaker 2: how much has fallen. And I didn't realize that that
47:18
Speaker 2: memory I had had before was that night. So in
47:22
Speaker 2: that moment, you know, it's snowing like crazy, He's putting
47:25
Speaker 2: us in the car, and I look over and notice
47:29
Speaker 2: that the trunk of her car, snow had been wiped
47:34
Speaker 2: off of it. Huge, huge, too.
47:37
Speaker 3: Huge, right, And you know, by going through a timeline
47:41
Speaker 3: like that, the really cool thing is is you're sort
47:48
Speaker 3: of looking around and in that moment, in the truth
47:50
Speaker 3: of that moment, yes, you're only five years old, but
47:53
Speaker 3: once again mom and Dad had a huge fight and
47:56
Speaker 3: it was big and it was loud for you, and
48:00
Speaker 3: you know you were listening because at one point you said,
48:03
Speaker 3: you know, Dad came down the hallway and was like,
48:05
Speaker 3: made you get in bed. You know, he kind of
48:08
Speaker 3: saw you peeking. And you might only be five, but
48:14
Speaker 3: by the age of five, you're walking, you're talking, you're
48:17
Speaker 3: looking around, you're seeing the world, you're hearing the world.
48:20
Speaker 3: You're aware, and you were suspicious. You were like, what
48:23
Speaker 3: has gone on here? You were suspicious, and you were
48:27
Speaker 3: taking in because again, you are their ears. So you,
48:32
Speaker 3: as a five year old, are having to listen to
48:34
Speaker 3: big conversations and basically translate back to them and talk
48:38
Speaker 3: to the other people. You're being forced to pay more
48:41
Speaker 3: attention to the world around you in a kind of
48:45
Speaker 3: adult way than most other kids would be. Yes, And
48:49
Speaker 3: so I used that. I was like, heck, yeah, we're
48:52
Speaker 3: going to use it because her observancy is going to
48:55
Speaker 3: be more than just like, you know, a little kid
48:58
Speaker 3: who's never seen trauma, who doesn't have to think about like,
49:01
Speaker 3: let me help mom and dad explain to the grocery
49:03
Speaker 3: store guy what they need. It's very different. So I
49:06
Speaker 3: was like, we're going to use this.
49:07
Speaker 1: It's a tool.
49:08
Speaker 3: And the cool thing about going through the night piece
49:11
Speaker 3: by piece is you were right back in it as
49:15
Speaker 3: that child, but also it's the grown up you. The
49:20
Speaker 3: grown up Alison was there. I'm using prompts okay, and
49:24
Speaker 3: then what happens next? What do you see? What do
49:27
Speaker 3: you hear? And the grown up you is almost right
49:30
Speaker 3: there holding hands with the little one and saying okay.
49:34
Speaker 1: So you know, this is how it can be.
49:38
Speaker 3: Even if it's you know, like Cheryl you had mentioned,
49:41
Speaker 3: if it's you know, something trump traumatic or terrible, you're
49:45
Speaker 3: almost once removed. I always say there's a big difference
49:48
Speaker 3: about being like someone who's in a war or sitting
49:52
Speaker 3: in the front row of a movie theater watching a
49:54
Speaker 3: movie about war. You are once removed. And those things
49:59
Speaker 3: go hand in hand, which is why I explained to
50:01
Speaker 3: Alison straight a had them in it. You know, she
50:03
Speaker 3: you know, put her by in my chair. I said,
50:05
Speaker 3: the worst thing that's ever happened to you know, the
50:07
Speaker 3: whole entire life has already happened, and you've made it through.
50:09
Speaker 3: So now let's see what we can get from it.
50:11
Speaker 1: If taken us well, when you sit in me that
50:17
Speaker 1: text as an investigator, I'm like, he transported her in
50:22
Speaker 1: her own car, so that tells me he took his
50:27
Speaker 1: car to take the children to the babysitter, but then
50:31
Speaker 1: used her car to dispose of her, or.
50:34
Speaker 3: That's where he puts where he put her temporarily, don't you.
50:37
Speaker 1: Know either way, But in my mind that's where I
50:39
Speaker 1: went immediately, and I'm like, of course he did. That's
50:42
Speaker 1: why Febe goes, oh, well she left. I saw her
50:45
Speaker 1: driving down Main Street at whatever time. So you know,
50:49
Speaker 1: I just appreciate everything that you did, Monica, because you know,
50:54
Speaker 1: I knew that he was my number one. I know
50:58
Speaker 1: that he was Allison's number one big. But her memories
51:02
Speaker 1: and then the next text that I got that was
51:05
Speaker 1: pretty chilling was that she knew there were all these
51:08
Speaker 1: loud sounds. There were loud sounds and they suddenly stopped,
51:14
Speaker 1: so she knew. She even knew in the timeline when
51:18
Speaker 1: her mom was killed in that house, she knew.
51:23
Speaker 3: And like I said, because she was a highly observant child,
51:26
Speaker 3: because of necessity, when she and her brother were being
51:30
Speaker 3: marched out of that house by their dad in the
51:32
Speaker 3: middle of the night, she was looking around. And Alison,
51:39
Speaker 3: when you looked around the house and you observed everything,
51:44
Speaker 3: what observance of absolute mayhem? Did you see nothing? You
51:52
Speaker 3: were like it looks everything's fine. You didn't see you
51:56
Speaker 3: didn't see a mess, you didn't see blood, you didn't
51:59
Speaker 3: see things talcked. It seemed eerily quiet and perfect, and
52:08
Speaker 3: that can tell a story of how he committed this act.
52:15
Speaker 1: You, rookie detectives, if you were working with somebody who
52:22
Speaker 1: is a coda, as Monica says, child of deaf adults,
52:27
Speaker 1: be sure to tell everybody on your team, because I
52:31
Speaker 1: don't think that would have dawned on me to tell you.
52:35
Speaker 1: I guess I thought it would come out if necessary.
52:37
Speaker 1: But I just learned something good tonight, So I appreciate
52:42
Speaker 1: you again. Monica, still training and Alison, I'll tell you, you know,
52:46
Speaker 1: I do think you were brave. Fear did not stop you.
52:50
Speaker 1: You and I, you know, both joked that neither one
52:53
Speaker 1: of us had ever used hypnosis. I've had plenty of
52:57
Speaker 1: victims that had suppressed memories and with counselors, and I
53:02
Speaker 1: learned all about disassociation and whatnot. But I had never
53:06
Speaker 1: used hypnosis, and I tried to use it myself once
53:10
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, but I failed. I got my
53:14
Speaker 1: dad's pocket watch and went back and forth in front
53:18
Speaker 1: of him, so that he would buy me a mini bike,
53:21
Speaker 1: but it funds.
53:26
Speaker 3: Was a worthy effort.
53:26
Speaker 1: He never was a worthy effort. But he was not
53:29
Speaker 1: like Alison. He was not open to it, so he
53:33
Speaker 1: wouldn't get with the program. But again, Monica, you know,
53:38
Speaker 1: your generosity and your expertise is so appreciated. I mean,
53:45
Speaker 1: I will be forever grateful for what you did for
53:48
Speaker 1: Alison in this case. And Alison, your bravery, your willingness
53:54
Speaker 1: to get on a plane and trust somebody you had
53:56
Speaker 1: never dealt with. Really, you didn't know me much better
53:59
Speaker 1: than you new Monica. And I just know that your
54:03
Speaker 1: mama is so impressed and just probably a little knocked
54:08
Speaker 1: out by everything that you have accomplished. But before we
54:13
Speaker 1: in this, Alison, tell everybody about the phone call.
54:19
Speaker 2: I have worked and worked and worked. I've networked, I've
54:23
Speaker 2: done podcasts and interviews and everything I can think of.
54:27
Speaker 2: I've gone to conferences and crime different things, wrote a book,
54:32
Speaker 2: you know, everything I could think of. And I was always,
54:37
Speaker 2: you know, just battling with what do I do next?
54:42
Speaker 2: And here I am like, well, you know, I'm packing
54:45
Speaker 2: for an Irish dance competition that I was taking my
54:49
Speaker 2: daughter to the next day. In Milwaukee and my phone
54:54
Speaker 2: rings and it is the State Police, and I I thought,
55:00
Speaker 2: what in the world at eight thirty at night, the
55:03
Speaker 2: night before a holiday. No less, you know, it's the
55:06
Speaker 2: night before Thanksgiving. My phone rings and it says state
55:10
Speaker 2: Police on it, and I thought, well, that's weird. So
55:13
Speaker 2: I answer it and it's the investigator who was in
55:19
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania working my mother's case. And you know, I say hello,
55:24
Speaker 2: and I I feel like the right descriptor is the
55:30
Speaker 2: Charlie Brown teacher, because you know, he says this is
55:33
Speaker 2: this is trueer gible and and I'm thinking okay, And
55:39
Speaker 2: he said, we interviewed Bud today and I said, oh, okay.
55:45
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking he's going to tell me something obviously,
55:48
Speaker 2: or he wouldn't be calling me the night before that's
55:50
Speaker 2: useful or beneficial, or it's got to be good news,
55:53
Speaker 2: because why would you call me now? But never did
55:56
Speaker 2: I imagine the words that came out of him his mouth.
56:01
Speaker 2: I don't think in my entire life I have actually
56:05
Speaker 2: fathomed what those words would sound like. And he said
56:10
Speaker 2: to me, brace yourself, Alison. We interviewed Bud today and
56:19
Speaker 2: he confessed mic drop, but I don't think I heard that,
56:25
Speaker 2: right what And you know, he couldn't get into the
56:30
Speaker 2: details or specifics, but he said he wanted me to
56:34
Speaker 2: know that he was at that moment that he was
56:38
Speaker 2: calling me, he had been arrested, was in police custody,
56:43
Speaker 2: and that night was being arranged for homicide and aggravated assault.
56:54
Speaker 2: Absolute miracle. Like people in my situation don't hear those words,
57:00
Speaker 2: Like people don't hold on to that that crime for
57:05
Speaker 2: forty four years and wake up one day and decide
57:07
Speaker 2: to tell the truth. It's unheard of, correct, But.
57:12
Speaker 1: Just like everything else in this case, it's unheard of.
57:15
Speaker 1: So that to me was a fitting ending. And I
57:18
Speaker 1: could not wait to reach out to Monica because she
57:22
Speaker 1: deserved quickly before Thanksgiving to know what happened too. And
57:28
Speaker 1: it was a great thing to be able to, you know,
57:31
Speaker 1: communicate with both of y'all. And what a Thanksgiving, oh
57:35
Speaker 1: my god less indeed.
57:38
Speaker 3: And that explained to me. I was like Cheryl's reaching
57:42
Speaker 3: out to me on Thanksgiving Day? What in the world?
57:44
Speaker 3: And now now I know why I didn't know as
57:47
Speaker 3: the night before, my goodness, wow, it was one.
57:51
Speaker 1: Of the best Thanksgiving. And you know, all of your
57:54
Speaker 1: posts and the way people were supporting you, and and
57:57
Speaker 1: you know, even all these years, Alison, the way you
58:01
Speaker 1: have moved, the way you have operated, the way you
58:04
Speaker 1: have stayed true has has been something to watch too.
58:08
Speaker 1: So I just appreciate you both. I am great, that's
58:11
Speaker 1: all My mama in me. I hear you. I believe
58:14
Speaker 1: it one hundred percent. Lonnie deserves the credit, there's no doubt.
58:19
Speaker 1: But I do want both of you to know we
58:21
Speaker 1: will do another one. We will have an update when
58:23
Speaker 1: we can and when Alison can share everything after the
58:27
Speaker 1: court process. So just just wait. There will be a
58:30
Speaker 1: part two. And I'm going to tell you right now,
58:32
Speaker 1: y'all ain't gonna.
58:33
Speaker 2: Be ready for that, so you won't believe it.
58:36
Speaker 1: We will go and we will continue to celebrate Thanksgiving.
58:39
Speaker 1: But Monica Miller, thank you, Alison Daker, thank you, and congratulations.
58:44
Speaker 4: Honey, thanks for having me, thank you so much. Congratulations Alison,
58:50
Speaker 4: thank you, and thank you for all of your hard
58:54
Speaker 4: work and all of this.
58:56
Speaker 3: Oh you're You're welcome, and I'm you know, I'm interested
58:59
Speaker 3: to see what other details come out, because we had
59:02
Speaker 3: some we had some heavy guesses, but I guess maybe
59:07
Speaker 3: we'll possibly.
59:08
Speaker 1: Know y'all I'm gonna end Zone seven the way that
59:12
Speaker 1: I always do with a quote, allow yourself to see
59:17
Speaker 1: what you don't allow yourself to see Milton Ericson. I'm
59:24
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.