Latest / Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche / The Cornell 7: More than a Headline (w. Laura Dunn)

Transcript

The Cornell 7: More than a Headline (w. Laura Dunn) · Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Brief Recess. I'm Michael Foote.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I'm Melissa Malbrinch.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about Kelly Clarkson's small business adventures.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: The internet is, a jury is out on whether Melissa
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: likes dogs. I sing happy birthday in Chinese and you're
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: probably wondering why. We discussed the federal raid on Congresswoman
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Omar's home. Then we sit down with Laura Dunn to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: get really into the Cornell 7 case. And we're also
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: going to answer all your questions from the DMs and
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: all your comments about why Melissa doesn't like dogs. So
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: stick around.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Brief Recess is nominated for a Signal Award and you
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: can help us win the Listener's Choice Award. Go to vote.signalaward.com,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: navigate to categories, select genre, then click activism, public service
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and social impact to find Brief Recess and cast your vote.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: You selfish bastard.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: No, I could split it in half.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: No, never mind.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: I can break you off a piece of that. I
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: had like an eyeglass wipe and I was like, oh yeah,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: I have these for one of my glasses. Melissa took
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: her glasses off like, oh thanks. I was like, no,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: it's for my glasses. What are you talking about? Here,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: have some.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: How are you? Welcome to Brief Recess.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Brief Recess, friends.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Everyone, this is a weird day. It's a weird day.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a punch drunk episode. I'm kind
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: of a hot mess today.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, just like I can't even
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: open my phone anymore without seeing Kelly Clarkson getting in
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: a fight over a bird.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I did see that.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: She's just going crazy. She's going wild.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I think her whole thing was that she went into
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: this store. She just looked like a regular person. And
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: they were just.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Rude to her. Sure. Right. Happens to me every day.
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: It happens.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So that's the thing though. It happens to a lot
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: of people all the time, but we don't have a
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: platform like Kelly Clarkson.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, what she was trying to do. What? She
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: was trying to buy something that's not for sale.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't see.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: I didn't know.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: She was like, I want this. And they were like,
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you can't buy that. She wanted like some, it was
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: like an artwork.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: Was it the big giant bird?
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It was a tiny little like robot, like a
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: puppet bird.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Because I did see that they had a big giant raven.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what she wanted, but no,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: it was like this little bird. What, CJ?
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Well, did you see her follow up to their response?
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They're like, everyone, like, listen, you know me, I've
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: lost it when I was really unwarranted. I've lost my temper.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: But there seems to be days old beef. All beef
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: is getting smoked in New York right now because she's
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: still going back at it. She said, and take that.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: They took that bird. She said, they said, you can't
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: buy that. And then she went off online. She's got
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: how many millions of followers online? And this is a
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: little store in Brooklyn. She's fighting with the guy who
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: works at the store. I mean, I guess so.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Whatever, meanwhile, the whole world is going straight to shit.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: And I'm just like, this is crazy. They had like
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: one grouchy hungover worker that she's like, we've got the
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: American Idol beeping.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Somebody was complaining about her. I was just looking at
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: threads or whatever. And somebody was like, you obviously were
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Team Justin, which I thought was really funny.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I thought that was funny. They were like, oh, you must.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Have been- 25 years later, they're doing Team Justin. From
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Justin to Kelly to Brooklyn.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: To Brooklyn. No love whatsoever.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: This brooch. Brooch.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Brooches.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Brooches. All right, show everyone. Melissa's got, oh, yeah.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: It's uptumnal, a little fall.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Heavy as the chest that wears the brooch.
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: It does.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: The brooch.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Why are you saying brooch weird like that?
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Brooch.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Brooch. Brooch. Brooch. Yeah. Get in the comments. Let us know.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: It's definitely not brooch.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: You say potato.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: It's not. Get out of here.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: It's not brooch. No, I said it so many times
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: in my head. Someone's driving down 95 screaming at the windshield,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: by the way, yelling brooch.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: It's brooch.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: It's brooch. It's brooch. Anyway.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: How was your weekend?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: It was good. Yeah, it was good. It was really.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: What'd you do this weekend?
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Too much. Too much. I saw Rocky Horror again.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: Which was really fun. Was it fun? I really liked
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: that show. I hadn't really seen it. And then I
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: saw it on Broadway. And then they sat us in
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: the front row of opening night when I went. And
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I told you the Susan Sarandon story. I didn't know
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: that she was in the movie. And it was a
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: whole thing. But this time without Susan Sarandon there, turns
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: out just as good of a show without her in
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the audience. And I wasn't in the front row. So
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: I actually could– it was a little too close.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Okay. Sometimes stuff can be too close for sure. Yeah.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: It's a difference between like, yeah. Yeah. It's like going
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: to like an interactive zoo where you can like, like
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: people are like touching. Like it was like, it was
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: too close. Yeah.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like if I've ever been sort of
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: in the very front row, it's so close that you're
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: looking up. So you're sort of looking up the actor's noses,
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: and I would rather be a little bit further behind.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: You're looking at the sweat on the forehead.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: I know, and you're like, how big is the wig?
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: All right, so the camera's the face. This is what
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: I'd be doing. Look, I'm right at their wig line.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Just like, is that the mic?
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: I can see the wig is.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Let's get into a sidebar about a surprise update from
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Melissa about something. What is it?
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Do you remember the other day we were talking about
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: you went to go see Paranormal Activity and then there
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: was like a lady.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: And then you were mad because you don't like dogs.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: That's not. And you hate all dogs. And she wants
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: to close every shelter.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: I like dogs.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Do you if you have to keep saying it?
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: But so a friend of mine whose name is also Michael. Uh-oh.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: He went to see that show.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Paranormal Snacktivity?
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, and saw the same lady with the same dog.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: With the broken ankles?
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: No, no, he didn't say that.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: There is someone stuck in a loop seeing Paranormal Activity
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: $ 400 tick producer seats with their dog?
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: No.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: Wait.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: There's some lady addicted to traumatizing her dog at paranormal activity.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: I'm telling you.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Get the lady from PETA back on the show, CJ,
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: because this is actually, don't take your dog multiple times
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: to see paranormal activity. It's a loud show. I screamed.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: You did?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: There's screaming gay people in the audience. You can't bring
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: a dog there. Melissa.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Not screaming gay people.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: The whole show is Melissa trying to find something on
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: her phone. I found it.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: I was looking in the wrong place. He said, so
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: my friend Mike, shout out to Michael N., yo, I
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: went to see Paranormal Activity with my cousin and the
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: lady with the poodle was seated behind us. My cousin
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: had a chat with her and turns out that she's
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: at almost every showing with that dog and she's apparently
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: a show producer or related to the producer and takes
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: the dog everywhere even if people tell her that they're allergic.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: So this woman is out here on these streets. Thanks,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: Michael N.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: This is the producer of the show?
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Or he doesn't know. He was saying it's either like-
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: He was talking to her? His cousin who he was
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: with was talking to the lady.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: It's like the director, like the dramaturg and making sure
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: that every night she's giving notes at the end?
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I guess.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: With her dog?
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: With her dog.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: No, that's crazy.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: That is actually- I think that's really funny that, first
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: of all, I also want to say to my friend, Mike,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: thanks for listening, Mike. I didn't think you were.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: The real horror is that paranormal activity are happening in
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the audience with this woman.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy? When he said that to me, I
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, I got to tell Michael. And then
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: I was like, no, I'm going to wait for the show.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: But yeah.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: So the whole internet thinks you hate dogs.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Actually, that is not. The majority of the people are
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: not saying that, actually. There are some people who will
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: insist on getting it wrong.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But most people, and a lot of them- People
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: are determined to misunderstand.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: People are just absolutely determined to misunderstand. Most of the
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: people who responded have dogs and were just like, for real,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: I think my dog should stay home sometimes.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Jack was following me around the apartment today while I'm
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: trying to get dressed.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: See, but you don't do that with Jack.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Jack doesn't- He doesn't want to be anywhere. It would
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: be dangerous to the country if I brought him ever.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: He doesn't like- But he's following me around and I'm like,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you got to leave me alone.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: Well, he's.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: He's panting. I know. I'm like, can we hold the
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: breath till I leave, man? Like, you just got to
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: give me a minute. Like, just hold, just give me
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: a fucking second without you panting in my ear. I
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: was just, Monday mornings are tough. It's hard for me
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: to get out of the house. I know I have
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: to look a little bit presentable for this show. So
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: it's tough. It's a tough morning. So anyway, you know
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: what a worse morning? Tell who? Selma Blair.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: What happened to her?
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: She allegedly bit a flight attendant and tried to open
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: the door to the plane.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you something. People are not okay.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: We are not.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Isn't there something? Doesn't she have a health problem? Does
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Selma Blair have MS?
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but we're cutting this if she does.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: I think she does. Wasn't Selma Blair, wasn't she in
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: that movie with Christina Applegate and Cameron Diaz?
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. She does have MS, right?
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: She has MS.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Cut this. Cut, delete this footage. All three cameras, even Melissa's.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Cut it.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: She has MS. Not that that's an excuse. Because now
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I feel like the people with MS are like, I
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: have MS and I've never bitten anybody.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I don't bite anybody.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying. I'm just saying that there.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Are people who look at CJ. CJ looks like it.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: CJ's looking so stressed about this edit.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying. No, no, no. We can talk about it.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: I had not heard that Selma Blair bit anybody before.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: But apparently she did bite a flight attendant. But what? Oh, sorry.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Selma Blair. She's calling. She's pissed.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I have nothing and I don't bite anyone.
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: Oh, wait.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: No, I do. I don't have anything, but I do
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: bite people.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Who are you biting?
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Every now and then.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: My uncle has MS. He's never bitten anybody.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: You know of.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: It's not a symptom.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: No.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: And Christina Applegate also has MS and she's never bitten anybody.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I will say I've wanted to open that door on
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: the plane though.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Have you?
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Look at the handle. It looks so delicious. It looks
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: so appealing. Are you three years old? It's like a
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: wet paint sign. It looks so fun when they do it.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Then those sassy little outfits are like, they do the
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: little bend and snap with the door to the plane.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: Did she get arrested?
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I don't think you don't get arrested. Oh. If you
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: open the point, I think it's like a mandatory detention.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: But I wonder if there's something going on. I mean,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: you know what? I feel like if you bite people,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: something is happening, right? There's something happening.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Now we're selling merch because that's the first brief recess tagline.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Welcome to season two, folks. Brief recess. Like if you
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: bite someone, you got something going on.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: If you bite somebody, something's happening.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Something's happening in the hole. I forgot she has MS.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: You're right. She does.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Do we know why she bit the person? Was somebody
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: trying to get her to sit down? What was happening?
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: There was no... I don't think there was... There wasn't
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: much context.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: We need context.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Because we don't know. Right. All we saw was bite.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Did the flight attendant bite her first?
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Yo, I was on a plane once and someone lit
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: a cigarette. Like in their seat, a drunk woman lit
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: a cigarette. I think that flight attendant was about to
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: bite that smoker.
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, there's two sides to every story. It's
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: kind of like the Kelly Clarkson and the animatronic bird.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: You know, she's at Chuck E. Cheese trying to buy Chuck.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: We don't know what's going on there. We don't know
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: what's going on. So jury is out until we hear
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: what the full context around Selma Blair and what the
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: altercation was.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: I just wonder where you are in life where you're
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: biting people. Like what's, do you know what I mean?
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I will say if my life was on
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: the line and the only way out was to bite.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm biting. I'll chew through. Put me in a
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Saw movie. Watch me. I'm out of there before the
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: opening sequence is done. I'll chew through that shit. Let's
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: get into algorithm is showing.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, my algorithm is out of control.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: Both, both the whipped them both out and they're on
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the table.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Have you ever seen this movie by Jennifer Lopez called
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: The Cell?
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: I've seen it like four times. Okay. I'm obsessed.
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: She's so hot. Oh my God. I'm straight.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: So I had no idea this was a thing. And
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: people were like, this is her magnum opus.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: This is like the best thing she's ever done. It's amazing. Yeah.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: I was talking to my friend Zan on the phone
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: and I was just like, have you ever seen The Cell?
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: And she's like, no. And I'm like, apparently people love
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: that shit.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: So good. Movie from 2000, 2001. I don't know, man.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Scared the absolute poop out of me when I was
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: a kid.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't watch scary movies.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: When I was a kid, even just the preview scared
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: me when I was a kid.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: God, you were a child.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's real. And she has to find like
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: a serial killer in his mind just to like wade
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: into the, it's a really cool movie.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: It holds up. I'm going to re, I'll rewatch it.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: CJ, have you seen this movie?
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: Same.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: I used to watch it in high school with my friends.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a really cool movie.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I had no idea it had this fun. I'm not
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: going to watch it because I don't like scary movies,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: but I had no idea that she was in this
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: movie that people loved so much.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Did I tell you? I promised everyone I would share
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: the birthday story from last week. I forget how it
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: came up.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Nothing. How does anything come up here?
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: It just pops in our heads.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: CJ remembers.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: You asked if Clay Aiken could sing on the show,
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: and I said he could sing like.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: A happy birthday. Oh, right. He could sing happy birthday
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: because it's in the public domain. So I went to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: a weird high school that was unaccredited. I told you this.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: We've heard this before.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: My senior year, they called us into an assembly and
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: told us we got accredited. And we were like, wait,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: what was the past three and a half years then?
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Useless.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Anyway, they wanted to appear like super progressive, so they
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: offered Chinese language classes. Mm-hmm. Just so when they're on
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: the tour, they could say, oh, we also offer Chinese language.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: No one ever actually took the Chinese classes.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Who was teaching the Chinese? Was Mrs. Dawson teaching Chinese?
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: I was the only idiot who signed up for Chinese
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: because I wanted to get it on my college resume.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: They hired a teacher. I don't know where they found her.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: But they were like, come work here. Teach this one
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: little gay kid Chinese every morning. And it was like
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: at 730 in the morning. It was me and this
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Chinese teacher. This is where I need to be abundantly clear.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: I was not in a position of power at this school.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I'm 38 now, but I was 15 then. Frosted Highlights,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Lance Bass was the rage, like... Just please remember.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: What were you smoking?
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Parliament Lights.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Or Capri's. Whatever I could get my hands on. And
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: so I was not an attorney then. So I could
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: not do anything. I was honestly, I wasn't in, the
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: power dynamic was off. 7.30 a.m. It's first period. I'm
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the only kid in the class. So it's me and
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the teacher. They didn't have a special ed teacher for
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: the first period class. So they put. the children with
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: disabilities in the Chinese class and had the Chinese teacher
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: watch the kids. We're going to pause. We're going to pause.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So insane. I did not make this decision.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, Michael.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: So there was this one girl who had a disability
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: and it was her birthday. Okay. The teacher had me
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: sing in Chinese, happy birthday to this girl.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Do you still know it?
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Michael, will you please sing happy birthday in Chinese to me?
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: Please.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: I ask so little of you.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to look deep, soulfully into your eyes while
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: I do it. That was all he did. Ni sheng
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: zhi kuai le.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: I'm very impressed. I can't decide if people are going
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: to get mad at us or they're going to think
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: this is great.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: But every day I think about that girl. I wake
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: up and I think, what the fuck did she think
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: was happening? She had a mental disability. Right. And they
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: were having me sing to her in Chinese. She had
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: a gay kid singing to her in Mandarin. Every morning.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Every morning.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: At 7 a.m. on her birthday. Not every morning.
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: She is somewhere right now like, what the fuck was that? Like,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: she is.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, aren't you like, what the fuck was that?
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: We're all like, what was that? And now we just
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: have to live with knowing. We all just have to
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: live knowing that that happened. I can't undo it.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Well, now I can't unknow it. Now I know that, again,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: I'm always, whenever you bring up how you went to
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the school that was unaccredited, I am floored by the
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: decision making of Mr.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: And Mrs.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Foote, first of all. And I've met Michael's parents and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: they're lovely and they're smart and they're so like fun
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: to be around. I mean, I wonder if it was
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: a situation where like, you know what? We're just going
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: to wash our hands.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Of Michael. They really were. No, it's true. I was
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: causing a ruckus at the public school and they were like,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: we don't really know what to do. We don't know
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: what to do. They were like, let's just throw money
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: at the problem. And he's going to be learning Chinese.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I know someone's going to clock me for the Chinese pronunciation.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: And that's okay.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: Well, that's okay.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: It's some pretty old dialect for me. It's been a
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: minute since I sang Happy Birthday. Okay.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you for the serenade.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Anytime.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I am touched.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, I missed your... Your birthday's like nowhere near now.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: But when... I'll leave you a voicemail.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Our birthdays are the same the day after each other.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to think if she taught me any other
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: like Merry Christmas or anything. No, I don't think there
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: was like a Christmas song.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: You know what I randomly know how to say?
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Don't do it. Don't do it. What is it?
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: And I want to say in Mandarin.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Which means why.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Did you know that?
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I know Taiguela because I go and I
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: haggle in Chinatown. That means too much. That's too much.
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: Taiguela.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: And I only know that is because I was working
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: at a law firm.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: You also know Happy Chanuka.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: Happy Chanuka, baby. I was working with an attorney and
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: somebody said something to him and he was just, he went,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and I was like, what's that?
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: He said, why?
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Just why?
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Why are they making us do this? I know.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Melissa says, what is it? Jashesh?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Jashesh.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: It means dry eyes.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, it means dry eyes, but it also, it's
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: not just that. It's also like, oh my God, I
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: can't believe it. Eye roll.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Anyway. I know one phrase.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: What?
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: I used to live in Hong Kong, and I would
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: tell cab drivers how to get me home.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Hold on a minute. We're always learning new things about CJ.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: CJ's always dropping the fucking bombs.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was a teacher.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Boom.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I used to live in Hong Kong.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Boom.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: He's like, when I wrote Stop Dragging My Heart Around
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: with Fleetwood Mac. Yeah, he does shit like that. He'd
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: be doing that. Yeah.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: So when I would get in a cab late at night,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I'd just say, which means fish market by the Gooseneck Bridge.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Love. That's where you lived, or that's where you used
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: to hang out?
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: That's where I knew how to get home from.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: CJ hanging out under a bridge in Hong Kong. If
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: you're ever wondering who's producing our show, if you're ever
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: wondering how we got here.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: How old were you when you lived in Hong Kong, CJ?
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: What was going on in the home?
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: What was going on in the home?
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: Not CJ, the next guest. I was like 25 to 27.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's a good long period.
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Did you like it?
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I loved it. It was amazing.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: All Southeast Asia is amazing.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Look at this. Learning new things about CJ. Okay. What
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: are we talking about?
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: What's going on in this country? We've got to vote early.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Do you know how to vote early? Because I actually don't.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: I need help. You know what?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I've got to figure it out because I am– So
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: remember we were talking about the No Kings?
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: That's happening this weekend.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. We're going to protest. Yeah.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Well, it's actually not a protest. It is some kind
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: of an early voting rally.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I can do that. Yeah. So I actually definitely want
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: to do that. And I was thinking if anybody's watching
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: who knows anybody who's affiliated with the No Kings movement,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: we would actually love to talk to them. And I
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: was going to ask CJ if we should reach out
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: to somebody to try and get them to come in.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: But if you're listening and you are actually part of
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: that movement or you know somebody who is, who'd be
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: a really good person to talk to and explain everything
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to us, reach out to briefrecess.com.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Brief Recess Podcast, like the handle, CJ looks at those DMs.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: My DMs right now, it's just all, you're the stupidest
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: bitch on traders. So just- Send it to the brief recess.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Or you can send it to me.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Or Melissa, yeah.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: No one's writing to me at all.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Normally, I love that, but my DMs are like, why
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: are you such a stupid slut in a castle? And
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: the answer is, if you think if I knew, I
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: would change it. You think if I knew why? Anyway,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: I can't talk about it.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: No Kings.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: No Kings.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: So yeah. No Kings early voter rally. Right.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Which is what's happening this Saturday.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Okay. I love that. It's like a bogo.
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: October 17th.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Yes. Love a sale.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. So.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: In Sweden, they call a sale a slut spurt. Yeah,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: You've told us before.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Okay. But it reminded me of that song you played me.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: The AI. So AI is going to be the end
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: of us. And especially when it comes to things that
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: are ridiculous, there is this a filthy... Irish jig that
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: is being played on.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Created by.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Created by AI. I think it's the same people who
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: did Melissa, We're Drunken Outside or I'm Drunken Outside. All
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: of that stuff is AI, which is very, very.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that was AI.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't know... Initially, I didn't know that it was AI,
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: but somebody put me on and said that.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: It is AI.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: I know. It's actually... We've already lost control of it.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Which is not cool.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: I saw an AI... A guy went to an AI
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: interview and convinced the AI bot that was interviewing him
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: that he was there to terminate the AI contract.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: The AI glitch?
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: It was the AI interviewer. He convinced it that it
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: was that they were terminating the contract with the AI company.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's really– it's not– This is bad.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: It's not great.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I know. This is really bad. I mean, it's one
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: of those things where you, when the first time you
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: try and use like an AI tool, you're like, wow,
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: this is amazing.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Because you get this answer really quickly, whatever. But, you know,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: art is important.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Art, music, writing, all of that stuff is really important.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: And I don't think it is going to be in
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: our best interest to farm that out to an AI bot.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Remember I told you about the people, the AI attorneys?
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: No. Wait, what happened? Okay.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: You don't listen to me when I speak.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. Well, tell it to me again.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: So the other day in Union Square, there was somebody
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: giving out like flowers and along with the flowers, it's
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: sort of a way to get people to come to them.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: It's like this new AI law firm.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Oh, you did tell me this. Sorry. But I think
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: I got held up because what kind of flowers were they?
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Roses. Oh, yeah.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Okay. So they got that big tech money. They do.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: They got that big tech coin. But I mean, I
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: think it's super dangerous. It's really, really dangerous.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well- My– okay. Everyone's got like an AI hot take.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: But I'm sorry. I want like the choice if AI
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: is involved. Like every time I Google something, I get
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: like 400 AI. It's like a whole soliloquy. Yeah, I know. About–
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: And it's also like it is a bubble. It's going
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: to burst. It's going to fail. And then they're going
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: to get bailed out with taxpayer dollars.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Like that is what's going to happen.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Especially under this administration where he feels like, oh, if you–
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: He loves the idea of a data center, right?
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: So that's where all that stuff is sort of coming
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: up from.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Nobody's buying AI credits to use. No one's buying AI.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: No one's paying for AI. That's not true. But just
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: like the amount of money they're spending to generate this
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: is not being offset by consumer purchase.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: No, it isn't.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: No, I know.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Do we want to talk about... And also about.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: The dogs thing. Can I just really quickly, I really
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: do like dogs very, very much. I think they should
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: be allowed to go where they are loved and appreciated
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and all the things. I just don't think that they
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: need to be every place, right?
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I disagree.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: I know you do. That's okay.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: No, I want them fewer places. I love dogs. When
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I see your dog out with you everywhere, it makes
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: me a little stressed for them. Wait.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: So I think the thing is when I said out,
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't mean outside.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Dogs belong outside.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: But I just don't know that we need everyone to
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: bring their dog to the supermarket. That's what I meant.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm like too empathetic. But when I see a
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: dog at like the Union Square Farmer's Market at high
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: noon on a Saturday, I'm like, I'm stressed out being here.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: And I chose this. I don't know. Like that is
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: when I get too empathetic. But I mean, especially paranormal activity. But.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I do think like, yes, dogs being out and about
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: is like enriching.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: You don't take Jack to the farmer's market?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: No.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: But is it because.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: He doesn't want to. Okay.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: But is it because Jack is. Jack bites and stuff
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: And he's old as hell. Yeah. I would like take
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: him around places when he was younger, but he, I mean,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: he would kind of tell us what he wants and
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: I would listen.
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: But.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I just get stressed when I see
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: dogs like.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: But people were determined to think that I said that
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I hate dogs and I don't.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Is that what that was? The discourse?
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: No, I will say the majority of the comments were like, yeah, yeah,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: I agree with you, Melissa. And then I'm just always
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: really tuned in to the person who is insisting that
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to be an asshole about something. You know
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: what I mean? I mean, it's fine. Knock yourself out.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: But like, that's you're. Not reading the room person.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: People who don't understand context. Yeah. Whatever, man. They raided
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: a congresswoman's home this morning. That was crazy.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: They did.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: To wake up to that.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: And is it any– I mean, here's the thing, right?
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: They raided a congresswoman's home this morning. Is it any
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: surprise that it's– so, first of all, it's a woman. Right.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: A Muslim woman.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Who's home they broke into.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: And a woman who is Muslim and brown, right? No
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: one's breaking in to see what the fuck is going
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: on in Mitch McConnell's house.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Senator Hawley, just a harem of twinks in that house. So-
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Just like poppered up twinks at Senator Hawley's house, passed out,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: covered in glitter.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Are they drinking the glitter cocktails?
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: You ever do poppers? Never.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: Never.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: No, I'm just curious. I don't know. I mean, sometimes
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: you'll be like, well, it was the 90s. Everyone was
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: doing mop. You'll say something. We all had to clean
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: the BCR at some point. You know what I mean? Like,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: sometimes you will throw one.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: But I told you, like, I didn't smoke pot until
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I was like in my late 30s. Like, it's just not.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Because pot was crack. It was meth to your mother.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: It's the same drug.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: I was like scared.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Okay. But yes, it is. Truly reprehensible, and it's so
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: clearly intimidation that they raided her home. Like, there's no
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: reason for DHS to raid any. That's, like, not really
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: a thing that they do that I know of, based off, like,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: my experience in interacting with DHS as an immigration lawyer.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Michael, I think that at this stage of the game,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I think we need to sort of admit that all
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: bets are off, right? We are in a completely different landscape. Nothing...
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: that used to apply applies now. They're doing whatever they want.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Did we get a chance to talk about on the
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: show how Hetzig wants to do a public execution?
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. We didn't talk about it on the show,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: but it came out right after we recorded last week.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, what do people need to see? What do
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: people need to do? What is happening to us?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: I saw a video. They were like, if they want
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: to show public execution, Suzanne Lambert said it. Our guest
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: from a couple of weeks ago, she said, If you
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: want to show a public execution, release the body cam
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: footage of Renee Goode. That was a public execution.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: Alex Pretty, where's the body cam footage?
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: Right? Right.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: So I just feel like, I mean, when I saw
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: DHS rated, I was like, oh, it's the only government
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: agency he still has control over. It's the only one
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: that will actually do his bidding as ICE. That's why
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like, register and vote early now. Even if you're
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: not an immigrant, you're not worried about your personal voter suppression.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: That way you're out of the line when it's a
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: smaller group of people. If it's A huge crush of
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: people all trying to vote on one day at the
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: same time, that's a target for Trump to send ICE
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: to the polls, that poll, right? If you vote, register
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: early now, it removes that flashpoint. It's not a powder
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: keg anymore.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: It's a smaller group of people to target. It's harder.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: It becomes more disparate.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think about, especially in 2020, when we voted-
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: For the presidential election, Andre and I waited in line
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: for like four hours.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: I remember that. And that was New York.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: That was– I remember that. It was absolutely insane. We
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: were all still masked. Like it was– Yeah.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: We were all still masked and just waited. And so
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I really wonder if there are people now who are
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: just like, I don't want to go vote because it
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: feels unsafe.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Scary, spooky.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: I'm debating on whether or not I want– so if
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I want to be a poll worker.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I did it once before. It sucked. But like there's
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: a part of me that wants to do it.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should do something where like I go and
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I film just like what the polls are kind of
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: looking like in different areas.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: You don't want to film inside.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I can't film inside.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: You can film who's coming in and out, I guess.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: I could like go and then review it. Like once
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: I leave?
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Of like what I saw?
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Of what you saw, yeah.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: I bet like Chuck Goldenson would do something like that
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: with me.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: The thing about it is that think about– so we
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: live in New York City, right? Right. And we both
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: live in pretty liberal areas.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: White.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I feel like where I'm going to vote,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: where you're going to vote, it's going to be like
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: a cakewalk. Do you know what I mean? I don't
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: want to sort of, and now I've said it, it
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: won't be. But you know what I'm saying?
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: I'm not in the Bronx. I'm not like deep in Queens.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Or like Staten Island. I'm not even talking about
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: the Bronx. I'm talking about places like Staten Island or
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: upstate New York where, you know, there is an element.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Wait, I actually don't know what you're talking about. What
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: do you mean an element? It's like purple? Like it's
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: red and blue?
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: No, no, no.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Like a certain kind of person who lives there, right?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: What kind of person?
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: In Staten Island.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Okay. But upstate?
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm thinking like Hudson Valley.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, girl. Like apple picking. If you look at New
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: York State, there are in between. Sorry, I'm so stupid.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Hit the bell.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. If you look at New York State, there
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: are pockets of it that are very, very red.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like West New York.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: In places like that. So I feel like Staten Island
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: is very much a place like that. Upstate New York
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: is very much a place like that.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Upstate New York, remember when Kathy Hochul's always up there
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: doing something. She's always like, we need, it's desperate, we
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: need another hockey rink here.
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: Do we?
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: It's like $ 50 billion for a hockey rink. I'm like, girl, what?
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Teachers are like buying pencils for the classroom. I'm like
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: crowdfunding for erasers.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly. Meanwhile, we're building the hockey rink. So I
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: saw the other day that Elon Musk has spent something
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: like $ 250 million in terms of donations towards Republicans who
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: are running. And I think about people who have that
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: kind of money and all the things that you could do.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: With your money, and this is how you decide to
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: spend your money. I know he's a piece of shit,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: and I'm not really surprised, but that number. Yeah. And
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: I remember also when Mike Bloomberg was running for– what
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: was he running for?
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: President?
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: And he failed terribly.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: And he also spent a shitload of money on something
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: that he had no chance of winning. And again, he's
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: another one.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: You have to. I'm like, what are you– Elon Musk,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: you have to remember, he was begging to get on
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Epstein Island and they wouldn't let him on. They were like, please.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: He was like, please let me on. They were like,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: lose our number. We do not want you.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: I remember what I said to you.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: A group of pedophiles was like, this guy, I don't know.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: For me, that was the thing. For Jeffrey Epstein to
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: be such a monster, to be like, oof, I don't know.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Nope.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Everyone's got a price, but Elon, we don't want him.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Keep him off the island. She ruins the vibe. It's crazy.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so I wonder what, if anything, is going
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: to come of this sort of investigation of Omar's home,
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: of her.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Nothing. I'm sure they didn't find anything.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: You know what, though? But are we in a place
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: where we can trust what they do find?
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, right. Yes.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: A drop gun with like the smoking gun.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, are they going to– can we trust
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: them to be truthful?
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: With what they find or what they don't find?
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Just like it's so clearly they're trying to send a
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: message of intimidation to people who speak out, but also
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: of the upcoming election. Like they're very much trying to
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: spook people. They are. Like this was a publicity stunt.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: 100%. This was– anyway.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's take a break. We've got to get into
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: our conversation with our guest. Laura Dunn is here. We're
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: going to talk about the Cornell 7. We'll be back
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: with Under Oath and our guest, so stick around. Warning,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: the following interview discusses themes of sexual assault. Please skip
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: ahead to Tales from the DMs right now if this
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: topic is triggering for you. And if you need confidential help,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: please use the resources on the screen. Now back to
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: the show. Welcome back to Brief Recess. This is Under Oath.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: We are here with Laura Dunn. She is an award-winning
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: civil rights attorney, nationally recognized advocate for sexual violence survivor,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and she also previously guest on this show. So please, everyone,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: welcome back, Laura Dunn.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: It's good to see you, Laura.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Thank you for coming.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me again. I know it's a heavy topic,
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: but important to discuss. Yeah.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: So you're a survivor of campus sexual violence and worked
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: with the Obama administration to develop key title nine guidance. Um,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: so we thought we'd bring you back here today to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: talk about the Cornell seven. It's been all over everyone's feet,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: all over every headline. Um, I know that you have
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: been brought into a lot of discussions about this, so
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: we will, you know, take it up to your comfort
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: level and, you know, however you want to sort of
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: manage this conversation with us. But we thought it was
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: important to bring someone who has firsthand, well, experience administratively
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: as an attorney working with the Obama administration, but also
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: lived experience as well, someone who understands, you know, campus violence,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: campus sexual violence. You are an expert to us in
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: that regard. So we appreciate you and your time.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, like I said, thank you for having this conversation.
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: It is all over everyone's feeds, as it should be,
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: as it always should be, because campus sexual assault is
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: literally happening all the time.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: And this happened to me almost 20 years ago. So
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: to see a case that is almost identical, really, you know,
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: you'd have to take a moment. I have expressed it
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: as heartbreak, but a lot of people feel almost a
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: level of hopelessness that these stories keep happening. These cases
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: are still occurring. But I see something a little different.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: And maybe it's because I've had those 20 years and
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: I've been able to have that front row seat as
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: a Title IX attorney working with the Obama administration. speaking
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: out during Me Too and kind of seeing the progress
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: we have made. So the hopeful note before some of
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: the frustrating parts is that our culture is shifting. We
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: are becoming less tolerant. We aren't accepting this story and
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: letting it fade in a week. We are coming back
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: and we're coming back and we're not letting it sit.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: The fact that there is an active effort to still
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: prosecute this case is- Wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: Absolutely correct. These cases were forgotten, swept under the rug.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: People said, what can we do? And this is a
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: tough case. We'll definitely get into this, I'm sure. But
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: there's issues with New York state law that made it challenging.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: But there's always something that can be done. There are
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: many different statutes. There's many different ways to kind of
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: go after a specific incident. It doesn't have to be
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: only for sexual assault. It could be the facilitation with drugs.
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: Many other things are possible. But for me to see
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: the level of outrage... The engagement of people, the conversation
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: spreading that it's not just New York that has this
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: loophole in law. It's 23 states across the United States.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: This is important. This is the type of movement that
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: actually can change things. Me Too opened our eyes. And
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: now it's time for the legislative and policy change. Right.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Well, once you say, whenever I hear someone say, well,
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: it's a law, it's like, okay, well, we wrote the law,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: so we can actually change it. We can amend it.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: We have amendments to the Constitution. There's no law in
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: America that we like. It's like, oh, well, it's the law.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: We can possibly change it, especially if we have politicians
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: paying attention.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: This is a legal podcast. Let's get into it. What
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: is that law? What is that loophole? Let's explain it
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: to our listeners because this isn't like insider baseball in
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: New York. It's like you said, 23 states in America
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: have similar loopholes with campus violence.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So the loopholes are unfortunately not specific to campus.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: It is broader than that, which means all of us
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: are at danger of those laws not protecting any of
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: us at any given time in at least half the
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: states of the country. So the voluntary intoxication loophole says
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: if someone chooses to drink, do drugs, change their capacitation level,
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: that somehow automatically the law doesn't protect them. And it's
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: just that silly. That idea is just that silly. That
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: all of a sudden you lose protection because of a
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: beverage choice or a substance choice. That doesn't exist anywhere else.
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: Shouldn't exist here. Where does that come from? Rape culture.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: Let's just name it. And you said, like, we wrote
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: the laws... The question is, like, who really wrote the
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: law the first time?
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: And they didn't look like us. We are a diverse group. Right.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: And why hasn't anyone changed it since, right?
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Like, there are a lot of laws that are on
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: the books that, you know, just never really get prosecuted.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And there's not really an issue with it. Like, I'm
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: thinking about, like, a horse and buggy. Like, you know
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: what I mean? Like, but this is still, like, a
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: very common occurrence. Sexual assault and violence is very real
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: in America and in New York.
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: So.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: So the reality is you can be a tourist, come
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: to New York City, drink a little too much because
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: you're having a great time. And someone targets you because
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: you're too drunk, because you're stumbling home, because you look vulnerable.
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: And then we're just not going to prosecute it. If
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: you go to campuses, we know that because of the
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: weird drinking age of 21, people are going to school
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: at 18. They're free. They have that gap. So they're
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: often drinking underage. They're often exploring with drugs. It's their
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: first time at freedom. That doesn't mean they're less protected
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: against violence. So these laws are really problematic. And the
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: thing that really pisses me off the most is that
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: the Speaker of the State Assembly, Carl Hastie, had three
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: different opportunities to fix this law, three different years where
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: he could have closed this loophole. And instead, he chose
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: not to call it to a vote. And he did
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: that over protests by advocates that have been speaking out
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: and speaking out for seven years and have enough votes.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: He has said publicly he doesn't have enough Straight up lie.
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: There's only one reason you don't call votes because you
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: want to protect perpetrators of sexual violence.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: To hear you say that out loud, it sounds absolutely insane, right?
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: That there's somebody who is in a position to make
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: a change and is not making that change because they
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: want to protect a perpetrator of sexual violence. I mean,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know that you're going to be able to
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: answer the question, but why? To what end and what
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: is the benefit to that person? Why would you not
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: want to prosecute somebody who has committed a crime?
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, those are great questions. So there's kind of like
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: two big buckets that this tends to fall in. One is,
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: I think, the most horrible. We unfortunately do have lawmakers
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: that have themselves engaged in sexual assault. They want the
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: same freedom they had passed to the next generation. I
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: think we can think of a president who would fall
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: into that category right now who's still avoiding prosecution actively
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: because of his position. So we know that some of
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: it has to do with I got away with this.
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: I'm keeping the door open. This is patriarchy, male privilege,
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: entitlement embodied. But some of it is actually far left.
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: And that's perhaps the most confusing for people. So unfortunately, DSA,
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: Democratic Socialists of America members are obstructing closing this loophole.
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: Why on earth would they ever do that? They're worried
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: about black and brown individuals being overly prosecuted while white
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: individuals of more wealthy statuses keep getting away with it.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: That's a flaw with the criminal justice system. That shouldn't
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: obstruct how we fix the laws. That should adjust how
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: we prosecute and enforce the laws. So it's kind of
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: a misguided idea that we shouldn't have any law enforcement because.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: It's so broken. It's like saying that like, okay, well,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: we shouldn't fix this law because... prosecutors are racist. Yeah.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: So we couldn't, if we fix the law, it'll just be,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: it'll show how racist they are. It's like, wait, that's
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: actually crazy.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it's like a fix both maybe.
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Why is it just the one?
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: And I think there is such worthiness in like looking
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: at our incarceration mentality in the United States, which is
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: far above and beyond like every other country in the
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: way we handle crime. And, meaningfully critiquing it, fixing it,
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: changing it. I would love to see peace officers, not
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: law enforcement officers on our street actually giving social work
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: and care to prevent crimes, not just respond to them.
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: There's so much we can do in that space, but
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: allowing perpetrators to commit crimes, it's so far off the mark.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: It's kind of missing the point. And I think people
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: can be principled to a fault. So we have people
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: who are allowing this to occur. That's problematic. And then
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: people who are, I'm so against the brokenness of our system,
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: I don't even want to touch it, let alone try
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: to fix it. So I sympathize with that far left conviction,
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: but it is leaving victims like me, who literally in
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: the state of Wisconsin, when this happened to me, had
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: a loophole. Alcohol was actually excluded as an intoxicating substance
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: under state law. which is just mind-boggling. We all know
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: you can get intoxicated with alcohol. But why was it
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: kept out? The alcohol lobby. They didn't want it in there.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: And that protected bars who over-served. And it was like
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: a whole industry got protected by this exclusion. And so
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: a horrible gang rape had to happen and a survivor
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: had to speak up. And that's the echo we have today.
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: We wait for the horror shows to do the right thing. Right.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: And I was just thinking when you were speaking about that,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: that drunk people, people who are impaired That's someone who's
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: more likely to be victimized than a sober person. These
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: laws are so strange because it protects people who were
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: roofied or someone who was drugged. Rather, it's just so stupid.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: These laws really are unbelievably ridiculous.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah. But that is the history of rape law. So
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: I get to be the legal nerd that I am
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: and tell you that when I was an undergraduate, I
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: did a whole rape law thesis. And it started way
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: back 1800s with the idea that nothing was illegal. And
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: I'm going to use gender and just assume men are perpetrators,
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: women are victims. I know that is not true and
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: not always the norm. But it makes it a quicker
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: discussion that men could do anything they wanted to get
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: sexual contact with women and girls. The law literally did
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: not tell the bad man what not to do, which
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: is a classic principle. If you've gone to law school,
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: you'll hear that a lot. So what they did was
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: require the victim to resist to the utmost and often
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: through the duration of the offense. So if you were
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: beaten for hours, you had to physically fight back. And
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: if you gave up, if you shut down, if you froze,
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: if you were scared, not a rape. Just not a rape.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: That was to consider consent.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: And all of that still has echoes. Even today, we
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: still have this idea that we look at the victim
• 47:08
  Speaker 4: to decide, is this a crime? It's like, look at
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: the perpetrator. It's the same idea as white privilege. Look
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: at the actual problem and stop shifting it onto the victimized.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. It's like any other crime. You wouldn't look
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: to the victim to determine the mens rea of the perpetrator.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: You look at the perpetrator.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: There's no mens rea for sexual assault law. Isn't that wild?
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: And some people actually abdicate that there shouldn't be with
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: the idea of it doesn't matter if they know they're
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: committing a sexual assault. What matters is if it is
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: a sexual assault.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Well, because then you get into a litigation around the
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: perpetrator's mental state at the time.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: And rape culture doesn't help with that because there really
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: is this idea. I've read cases where someone's like, well,
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: it's not rape because they didn't punch him. And it's like,
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: but you drugged them. Right. You locked them up. Like
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: you're still doing this horrible thing.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Or held them down or whatever it is.
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: That is. Yeah.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: It really is. I was talking a lot to my
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: girlfriends about what's been going on. And, you know, it's just,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: it's also just the culture. And I'm going to say
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: this country, but I think I know it happens other places.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I can, I don't know any woman. who has not
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: been made to feel uncomfortable. I think the first time
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: a man made me feel uncomfortable, I was 12 years old.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm saying? And it's just the
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: leering looks, somebody saying something. And to think that I
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: was a child in my Catholic school girl uniform, 12
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: years old, and there's a grown man making me feel uncomfortable.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: And then as a woman gets older, it gets worse
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: somehow because now, you know, when you go to college,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: now you're in a situation where you're with other young
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: people who are drinking because, and that's the thing too,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: is like, I understand that not everybody drinks when they
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: go to college, but that, but a lot of that
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: happens in that moment. It's when you are learning about yourself,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: when you're, it's the first time that you were saying
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: you're away from home, you have this freedom and you're, experimenting.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: And all of that comes from this idea that like,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: boys will be boys. Oh, he's pulling your hair or
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: he's bothering you because he likes you, right? And we take,
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: as women, we take that with us throughout the course
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: of our lives. And we sort of put up with
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: things that we should not have to put up with.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: where the lesson should not be on how to teach
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: me or how to teach our girls how to avoid that.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: It's to teach the boys why it's not okay to
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: do that in the first place.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about that group chat with 57 different men.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: That is one of the things that we talked about
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: on our show. I've talked about it with Michael. Anytime
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: I hear about something like that, how many people have
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: to co-sign to a horrible idea, right? And I think
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: a lot about the seven, that's one group of people,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: but it's the 40 some odd other guys who said nothing.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: And all the reasons why they did not participate, maybe
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be hopeful in this moment and say,
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: I don't want to do that. That sounds like a
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: terrible idea. I have a mom that I love. I
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: have a sister that I love. You had an opportunity
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: to do something. And I stand firm and I say,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: I want to see some punishment there as well.
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: I really do.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: I really do.
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: No, we definitely don't have a concept of failing to aid,
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: but other countries do. Like if you see harm and
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: you do nothing, you can actually get in trouble. That's
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: the cute punchline of Seinfeld, right? They didn't help some
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: guy getting robbed and they mocked him and they Ended
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: up in prison. So we could do that if we
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: wanted to. We could obligate people to care at a
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: higher level. We've chosen not to for whatever reason. But
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: that doesn't change, I think, the ability of teachers, of parents,
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: of communities to say, let's talk about this from that
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: group chat perspective. What if you get a message like this?
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: What is your obligation? What could you do? And I
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: think it's so sad that men value brotherhood.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: Over the life of that individual that they were mocking
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: and raping and inviting further harm to. We really need
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: people to have a little bit of empathy training. So
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: when I was running for Congress, I talked a lot
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: about we need a core curriculum. We need certain things
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: in the classroom. It's not just financial education and technology education.
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: Empathy was part of that. We are actively losing it.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: And I think that's a sad byproduct of technology kind
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: of Reducing interactions are community systems breaking down. I mean,
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: it used to be people were part of veterans clubs
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: and churches and there was more community is becoming less
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: and less. We're becoming so individualized and there are young
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: men who are only playing video games are only on
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: computers and are literally not interacting with other human beings.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: And they're not going to get these lessons unless someone
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: steps up in their life and creates these opportunities. That's
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: why we see the incel movement.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: I was also thinking about the campus police and how
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: they act as sort of a shield to protect the university,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: not necessarily the students attending the university.
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: We could talk about law enforcement so many hours. I
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: have strong feels about law enforcement because I sue them
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: all the time because they are the perpetrators. They are
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: part of the problem. And it's infuriating. The Obama administration,
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: right before it left, I think it was 2015, did
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: a DOJ study about the gender bias within prosecution and
• 53:04
  Speaker 4: law enforcement. So it was like planting the seed that
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: unfortunately did not get taken up. But the whole idea
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: was you guys are actually the problem because people, when
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: they do report, right, we know about 20% of people report.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Sexual violence.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: Sexual violence. Thank you. Which is very low, just for
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: the record. Nothing is reported 100%, not even car theft.
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: So like there's always some unreporting, but this is exceedingly high.
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: A lot of it's because they know law enforcement's not
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: going to take it seriously.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: And I see so many of these cases. And what
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: I see across the board is reasons not to prosecute.
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: They actually go in saying, how can we break this
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: and prove it's not a sexual assault rather than actually
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: just saying, let's start with seeing if this is a crime.
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: So there's a whole campaign.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Because I'm thinking like if you try. Right. Okay.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: So a victim comes into a police office and says,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: I was raped. The line of inquiry of the officers is, okay, well,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: let's sort of test the theory of this rape to
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: see if it will actually get prosecuted and ultimately get... God,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: that's so crazy because it's like the reason why it's
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: only 20% is because people know that that's going to
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: happen when they go talk to a cop, right? They
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: know that the conversation, right? And that if it isn't...
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: completely infallible, it won't ever actually get referred to a prosecutor.
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. Because these are already cases where they say he said,
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: she said, they're really hard to prove. So it's kind
• 54:35
  Speaker 4: of like, how can we get this off our plates?
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: How can you move to a different crime where we
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: will have higher success rates?
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: But I'm thinking like, sorry to cut you off. I'm sorry.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: The case in Cornell, it wasn't a he said, she said.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: There was digital evidence. There were timestamp text messages. This
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: is hard evidence. This is like a prosecutor's dream.
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: Except for the fact that she consented at the beginning
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: with two individuals. Now, I'm progressive.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: I'm evolved.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: There's nothing wrong with that, if anything.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: Glad she's having the life experiences she wants. But a
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: prosecutor could see that and say, how can I ever possibly,
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: with rape culture affecting every juror, prosecute the rest of it?
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: And that just keeps rape culture alive. Like, let's just
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: be very clear. If you're a prosecutor and you're caving
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: to rape culture, you're making it worse.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: I'm just thinking like, okay, if I'm not prosecutor and
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, how am I going to do voir dire?
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: How am I going to get 12 people on a
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: jury who are going to be cool with someone consenting
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: to sex with two people? But then at a certain
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: point during the interaction was no longer giving consent, right?
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Because there were drugs. There was like, she didn't take
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the drugs allegedly, or like, They were forced upon her.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: So the fear of potentially losing a case, you don't
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: pick up that prosecution. Now you have reinforced the structure
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: that led to this rape, right? So now you've just
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: sort of like reinforced this entire infrastructure of rape culture
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: that allows this to continue to happen. Because you were
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: afraid of potentially losing that case.
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you'll hear prosecutors say all the time, well,
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: unless I have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, I can't prosecute.
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: You just failed your ethics log.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: I hate to break it to you, but if you
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: actually read the ethical rule, it's probable cause.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: That's actually the ethical standard. So this idea of it's
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: not beyond a reasonable doubt, I can't bring it, that
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: makes no sense to me. That's a cop-out.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: No, that's the threshold to win the case. That's not
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: the prosecutorial level for ethical conduct.
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: And some of that's how prosecutorial offices are set up.
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: I actually interviewed to be a sex crimes prosecutor in Manhattan.
• 56:52
  Speaker 4: They set it up to burn you out. They want
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: the law school grad that doesn't have any work boundaries
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: that can be woken up at 1 a.m., 3 a.m.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: There's no paralegals. There's no support. And it's like, how
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: are you going to get the best of the best
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: when you have literally the worst working conditions? Like you're
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: creating your own problem. Not to mention sex. That they
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: delayed the interviews for months and it became a whole thing.
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: So some of it's the offices. And in this case,
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: we had the prosecutor go live on television and actually
• 57:22
  Speaker 4: say that he thought the victim had changed her story. Hmm.
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: And I literally, I don't talk to myself out loud
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: a lot at home. I was in a rage. I
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: was like, what is this man doing? Because I'm a lawyer.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: I would never in a million years, if I was
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: given that public responsibility, comment on a case. And it
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: turned out he hadn't even looked at the case. He
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: actually didn't know what he was saying. He was actually
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: wrong and he didn't realize. But yet he came out
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: with confidence and boldness because he was more worried about
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: defending his office. than actually serving justice.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: His own reputation.
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Well, now Letitia James is involved.
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: Whoever's appointed, they should be looking at it with the
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: lens of my job is to represent the state of
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: New York.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: And in New York, we do not want sexual offenses
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: occurring with impunity, period. And from there, everything else should follow.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: But this idea that I have to be neutral as
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: in maybe it didn't happen, like that is not neutrality.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: Just for the record, people get that wrong all the
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: time when I do campus trainings. Neutrality is not Second
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: guessing neutrality is, I don't want this crime here. Let
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: me see if it happened. And if so, let me
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: do something about it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Right. Prosecutors have always had platforms, politics, their elected officials.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: So the notion that you're biased because you've been on
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: the record in the court of public opinion about a topic...
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: That you now are precluded from prosecuting any of those cases.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: Well, the wild thing is there's ethical rules for prosecutors
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: that prohibit them from commenting on defendants and potentially biasing
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: entire communities against defendants. And yet there's no equivalent for victims.
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: So I don't just do civil rights. law i do
• 59:10
  Speaker 4: victims rights law and we believe that it should be
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: fair um for all the parties because especially with sexual
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: assault we have reports that jane doe and her lawyer
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: are being threatened they're being intimidated people are trying to
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: expose who they are um it's it's It's unimaginable to
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: be on that side. I've been on that side. The
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: hate mail, the hate messages, the people who will forever,
• 59:31
  Speaker 4: you know, think poorly of me. I remember years after
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: I graduated, I was once just laying in a park
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: enjoying the sun and I heard a group of now
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: current UW students being like, oh, I know who that is.
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: Let's move so we can talk about it. My rape
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: case was still being talked about years later as if
• 59:50
  Speaker 4: I was a false victim. Oh my God. because there
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: wasn't a prosecution. And the reason there wasn't a prosecution,
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: the prosecutor met with me and he said out loud,
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: what happened to you is reprehensible, but not illegal. And
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: almost the identical thing was said to Jane Doe. This
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: is morally wrong, but not illegal. And it's like the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: law is broken then. It is out of touch and
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: our society knows it's out of touch.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: So we looked it up. CJ looked it up. There've
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: been 1200 reports of sexual violence on Cornell's campus in
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: the last seven years. clearly the law is broken if
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: those are what the reports are. And we are now
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: seeing a lot of public attention that you and I,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: I think we can agree would not have happened 10
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: years ago. There would not be this entire nationwide public
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: discourse on this. This is a pure nightmare for the university.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, the name Cornell is now synonymous with rape.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: That's crazy and terrifying for what I'm sure is a,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: president that's about to get a vote of no confidence
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: from the faculty. It seems like the consequences at Cornell
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: are non-existent for students like this in these situations. We've
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: talked about how change is on the way. What is
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: on the way? What is different this time that might
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: prove to be some form of justice?
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: So just to piggyback off of that, so is there
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: anything out of this sort of horrendous situation that makes
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: you feel it's slow, it's too slow, but there's something
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: coming that is hopefully better?
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. So a really quick point, because you mentioned how
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: many reports, something I've seen wrong in media coverage is
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: saying high reports is bad. It's good. Interesting. We have
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: an underreported crime. If you have a campus that has
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: high reports, they're doing it right. I promise you they
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: are doing it right. So like Utah is an example.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: The reason University of Utah has such high reporting rates
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: is one of their students, Lauren McCluskey, was stalked and
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: murdered on campus and had been reported to be in
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: an intimate violence relationship and the university kept letting the
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: offender back on campus and she was beaten to death.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: That's a case I worked on. So the fact that
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: they have high rates, I know is because they fixed
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: it all and stopped hiding the problem and was bringing
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: it to the surface. But the problem that you're touching
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: on is with these 1,200, what's the level of expulsion?
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 4: It's probably what, under 10 or something?
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: The Cornell 7 had to write an essay as punishment.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: And so this gets to highlight a case that I'm
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: working on right now, Roe versus Icahn School of Medicine
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: at Mount Sinai. Where they actually set the standard of
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: expulsion for sexual assault on campus. They, of course, didn't
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: follow it, which is why there's a lawsuit. But most
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: schools can do anything they want with discipline and you
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: can't sue them over it. You can't say, hey, it
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: should have been an expulsion, should have been this. The
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: law has decided that schools have autonomy when it comes
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: to discipline and that they will not second guess. In
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: this case, because they had said in the public space
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: and advertised the school as being hard on sexual assaults,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: We brought contract claims, marketing claims.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: This is an icon school of medicine. Okay.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: So I think all schools should set the standard of
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: expulsion for sexual assault, period. And not just for rape.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: I'm saying all sexual assaults. And I mean that very
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: sincerely because we need people to know sex offenses are
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 4: unacceptable and that there are dire consequences. You should be
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: lucky just to lose a diploma and not your life,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: the prison sentence. So I want that standard, but I've
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: already given you the hint of why it'll never happen
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: because lawyers like me are then, haha, I can hold
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: you to this when you fall short. So schools have
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: created this dynamic of wherever the law is, we have
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 4: a choice to go above it and be as strong
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 4: as you want, but then we're going to have legal challenges.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: So there are unfortunately a lot of general counsel at
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: schools who are making choices that protect perpetration because they
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 4: just don't want lawsuits. They just want to mitigate risk
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: and liability. But the SUNY school system here, the State
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: University of New York system, used to have amazing general
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: counsel back during the Obama era that was pushing to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: say no sexual assault on our campuses. We'll go to bat.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: We'll go to court. We don't care. And one of
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: my clients went through that process and they were ferocious
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: at standing by what the school did and they didn't
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: back down and settle, which is what so many schools do.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: And so I've had cases where someone's been expelled for
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: sexual assault, has sued, and then privately settled and hidden
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 4: the outcome, which violates federal law, as they found out
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: when they got in trouble. But that's how a lot
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: of schools are doing it.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: And the sad reality- This is literally just like stop
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: raping people. Like, I don't know. Like, this is like
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: so complicated and so much work just because like men
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: can't stop raping women. Like, this is, that's insane. I
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: just like, I'm sorry. I'm not to be like the
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: white man in the room who's like, learning what rape is.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: It's not what's happening here. I'm acutely aware. I've taken
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: every criminal law course, but I'm just like, this is
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: so insane that we're just like, we have to do
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: all this stuff just to keep men from raping women
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: and not even keep them from that, just to hold
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: them accountable or have some sort of justice after they
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: do because they can't stop. This is crazy.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: But that's why we need accountability. So a lot of
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: schools are like, we do prevention. I always say prevention
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: and accountability are full circle.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: So you can do whatever program you want, but if
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: a sexual assault happens and there's no consequence.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: What the fuck was the point of the prevention?
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: There's no value.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Instantly.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: And so schools often encourage students to leave. And unfortunately,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: under the Trump regulations for Title IX, if an offender leaves,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: schools can drop cases. I fight that all the time
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 4: in my legal work. There's also situations where if a
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: victim leaves campus because they're horrified and they want to
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: be traumatized. Again, Trump administration gave schools a loophole. Well,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: if they're not going to access education, they're not protected.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: And so all these problems with Title IX were exposed
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 4: in 2020 when the regulations changed under the first Trump administration.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: Can you walk us through that change?
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: So Title IX is a federal civil right that prohibits
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: sex discrimination within educational settings. And we're talking about pre-K
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: all the way up through higher ed if they've taken
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: federal funding. So private schools- unless they're taking federal money
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 4: through student loans, are not covered.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: So that's how a school can say, this is an
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: all-girls school.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: If they're a private school.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: There are some exceptions for historically gender-segregated schools under Title IX.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 4: But the big trick is, are they taking federal funding
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: or not? So a lot of these private Christian schools
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: that people think are safe because it's religious– Hate to
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 4: break it to you, it's actually probably less safe and
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: you have less rights when you access it. So when
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: Title IX was passed, the purpose was to make sure
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: women could actually become doctors and lawyers and literally get
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: accepted into graduate school because they were being denied on
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: the basis of their gender. And we got past that.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 4: But what happened when women showed up? Well, then they
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: were sexually harassed, often by professors. And we have what
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: we call quid pro quo sexual harassment of if you
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: kind of– flirt with me, entertain me, allow me to
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: abuse you, you get an A, or at least I
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: don't fail you, whatever the threat variety is. So that
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: was happening. And so Title IX got extended to address
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: sexual harassment. And then we call sexual violence the most
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: extreme form of sexual harassment. It is a way to
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: make someone feel unwelcome, literally unsafe on campus because of
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 4: their gender and the sexual exploitation of that through violence.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: So sexual violence has been covered under Title IX since
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: the 90s. And it's really been a wonderful tool that
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: lawyers like me have used to hold schools accountable for
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: looking the other way, for protecting perpetrators that are employed
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: by them or attending school under them. And also just
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: make sure that survivors who stay on campus can just
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: do basic things like change classes, change dorm rooms. I
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 4: have literally had a case out of Texas where a
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: male student punched my female client before sexually assaulting her
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: and they made Both of them live on the same
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: floor of the same dorm and refuse to take action,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 4: which is just mind boggling.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, why?
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: Not to get into that one.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: We can try.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: But I mean, because I'm sure you asked, well, you know,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: at the very least, can she move? What is the reason?
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: Well, I'm going to hearken back to the Steubenville case.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 4: If you guys can remember, that was a high school case.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 4: I believe it was football players who sexually exploited an
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: intoxicated girl who was completely unconscious. They literally carried around
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 4: and sexually abused her. And put it out, I believe,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 4: on Twitter. It was a huge case. And when two
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: of the men were criminally charged, I believe it was
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 4: a reporter from one of the major news outlets who said, oh,
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: the lives of these young men, they're going to be ruined.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 4: And everyone in my camp exploded and said, excuse you?
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 4: What about the life of this girl? They only got
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: two years because they were juvenile. Their lives are not
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: destroyed by any means. I mean, think about the Emily
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: Doe case out of Stanford, where that individual, I believe,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: was in jail less than a year. And his father,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: when he was making the plea to the court for
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: a lesser sanction, called the rape in an alley that
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 4: was stopped by two strangers.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: A as action, right?
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: So we have this history of boys will be boys.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: Maybe they cross the line, but just tap on the wrist.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 4: And we wouldn't want to harm their education. It's a
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 4: complete eraser of women and their value and their place
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 4: in society.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: I'm just like floored. I'm sorry. No, I feel like-
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: But I'm also just like someone of you, like honestly.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: I've known you for a minute. You've been on the
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: show a couple of times and like, I don't know.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: You do a lot of hard, this is really, really difficult.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: It's hard work, but also like you lived this, like
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: you literally went through this yourself. So like, can I
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: ask you like personally, like how do you do this
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: work when it's your literal core trauma? Like I, like
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: I've experienced sexual violence in my life and I couldn't
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: have it be part, a huge part of my career
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: because I don't want to relive that every day.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: I can appreciate that. I will say my core trauma
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: wasn't so much the rape as the failure of my
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 4: family to support me during my rape. The failure of
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: my community, the failure of the church, the failure of
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 4: the school, the failure of police. It was actually the
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: community failure.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: You feel so alone.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: That's why I see so much change right now and
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 4: that's why I'm so hopeful in the face of this
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 4: because I actually know it was much, much worse. Not
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: to say it's better, but it is moving in the
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: right direction. So I face it every day. I don't know.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: It feels like a calling. I was raised an evangelical
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 4: pastor's daughter, and I do think everyone's given a talent
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: in this life, a calling, something they can add value
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: and make the world a better place. For me, this
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: is that. I look at something horrific. I look at
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: choke marks on victims, bruising, rape kits. I mean, you
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: name it. I have had to look at it. I've
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 4: had to hear recordings of rapes, watch videos. But all
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: of this is to make sure that survivors get justice.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: I can look at this. And the thing that I
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 4: think has set me apart from other lawyers that work
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: in sexual assault cases is we so often focus on
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: the victim. That's what the law did. That's what society does.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: I put perpetrators in full view. And I do not
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: back down and I do not back off. And the
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: amount of perpetrators, especially in K through 12, who themselves
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 4: have been victimized and have turned around and become these monsters.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: It's extraordinary. It's not 100%, but it is more than 50%.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 4: It is noticeable. And so I think we fail young
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: men who are sexually abused. We do make it a
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 4: women's issue. I did that today talking about men as perpetrators,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: women as victims. It has become such a quote unquote
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 4: women's issue, but it's a men's issue because they're committing
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: most of the violence even against other men and boys. Yes.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 4: So it exists everywhere in society. And I think the
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: more that we talk about it in a way that
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: meets people who've been victimized of any background, like, right,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 4: we know ICE detentions have sexual violence rampant in them
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: right now. It's a way to oppress people. It's just
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 4: a tool of oppression.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: It's literally like I go to court sometimes representing people
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: where I'm like, okay, you can't deport this person back
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: to this country because they were victim of sexual violence.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: It was a military tactic where children were raped as
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: part of a military regime of controlling the people. Absolutely.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: So it's a literal military tool.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: Yep. We know it's being used in the Israel-Gaza conflict.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: We know it was used in Egypt when they had
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: the uprising, the Arab Spring. It appears everywhere where people
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 4: are fighting for power and control. So I do see
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: it in the dimension of it's not just individuals acting badly.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: It is society still telling women, you don't have a place.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 4: And I keep saying women, but it's also transgender individuals.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: It's individuals from the queer community. It's immigrants. It's anyone who.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: Needs to be put down according to the dominant class, right?
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 4: So it's my honor to.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: Find these cases. But it's true. I mean, I'm thinking
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: about it like if you are here doing the work,
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: that victim's not alone the way you felt so alone. Yes.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Yes. There is real power
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: And my favorite thing in the entire world is watching
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 4: a survivor take the stand and doing cross-examination because that's
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 4: normally what survivors fear.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: In my clients, ugh. I'm sure, yeah.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: I'll tell you one in North Carolina, K-12 victim who
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 4: was raped, I'm sorry, kidnapped first from a K-12, a
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: high school, when she was 17. Oh, my God. Was
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: texting for help. The school resource officer and the assistant
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: principal knew that she was taken into the woods around
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 4: the camp. I'm sorry, around the school. And there had
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: been numerous girls taken into the woods by boys for
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: sexual abuse. This was not the first time. And they
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: failed to intervene. And she was sexually assaulted. And when
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 4: she got on the stand, I told her, it's just
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 4: like boxing. You know, your mitts are up because the
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 4: other person's wailing on you. Yes, no, I don't know,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: I don't remember. Those are your only answers unless they're
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 4: dumb enough to ask you why. And if they ask
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: you why, I want you to knock them out just
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: like all your fury. And this girl who could not
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: finish a sentence without breaking down when we started preparing
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 4: her testimony said, just went after this defense attorney and
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 4: was like, cause the defense attorney had said, well, why
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: aren't you pursuing a criminal case? She said, well, Terry,
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 4: and everyone sat up, you know, and she's like, cause
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: you messed it up so bad. Like, well, you didn't
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: keep evidence. You didn't do this. They had literally destroyed videos.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 4: They had lied. There was like forensic evidence that was hidden. Like,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: it was out of control how much they had done
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 4: to prevent criminal prosecution. And she just let it fly.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: And the defense attorney was like, your honor, your honor.
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: And the judge was like, order in the court, you know,
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 4: called a recess. And there was no reason. There was
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: no actual objection.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Let her answer the question. You asked the question. You
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: got to let the witness answer.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 4: That's how amazing she was. That's great. And at the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 4: end of that case, I wish I could say that
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 4: we won under Title IX. We did not. They did
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 4: not think the school could have prevented the sexual assault.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 4: And that was a key issue in that case.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: So in this case, the court was like, so if
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: you go to this school, it is within your expectation
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: to be raped or assaulted.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: Well, the court had made some interesting decisions about the
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: previous sexual assaults that were initially hidden. The city of
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: Charlotte had hidden the evidence. We actually got them sanctioned.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 4: They paid a fine to us because they hid evidence.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: But the judge would not let some.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 4: Very limited testimony from the other victims. So we couldn't
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 4: paint a full picture of how systemic it was.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: And that was part of it. We did appeal. We
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 4: didn't win on appeal. There was a Trump judge appointee.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: There's always some Trump judge waiting for the appeal. Yeah.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 4: But what I loved at the end of her case,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 4: the school had said she lied, that she was never kidnapped.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: It wasn't a rape. It was consensual sex that she
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 4: wanted it and was hiding it. The jury 100% believed
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 4: that she was kidnapped and raped. There was no question
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 4: that was part of the jury verdict form. And when
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: I looked at her devastated that we had just lost
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: this four year long case, she was smiling because she
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 4: was finally believed. And that was the most important thing
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 4: to her.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: Just the jury piece of paper. Yeah. Just being able
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: to be heard and like how people actually believe you
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: is so much more valuable sometimes. I mean, you want
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: the settlement, sure.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was going to say you want that, but
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: there isn't anything like somebody believing your story, right? Somebody
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 2: believing and trusting that the thing that you said happened.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: Did happen. Yeah.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 4: And every prosecutor needs to hear that because it's not
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 4: about the win. It's about the opportunity to tell your truth.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So Cornell 7's everywhere all over the news. Everybody's
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: seeing it in their feed. We see the surge of change.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: What can people do to get involved to help? We've
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: got a very engaged audience. So if there is something
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: that people can get involved with, I'm sure they would
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: love to know.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 4: So whether you're at a K-12 school, undergraduate, graduate school,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 4: push the administration to have sexual assaults. be a default
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 4: expulsion with very few exceptions. That's a huge thing because
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 4: students have always been able to change their campus policies.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 4: Will they stay there? That's a different question, but that's
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 4: why alumni donations matter. So if you're an alum and
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 4: you're a little miffed at your school for not handling
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 4: sexual violence better, you can actually restrict your donation and
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 4: put that it is limited for Title IX and prevention education.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 4: You can put conditions on your donations. That sends a
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 4: huge message when tens of thousands of dollars they wanted
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 4: to funnel into sports all of a sudden has to
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 4: be Title IX. You can also just withhold your donations,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 4: get the alumni group together, and again, force change on
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 4: the administration. In New York, we need Speaker Hastings to
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 4: call a vote. Don't let him say there's not enough votes.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 4: I promise you there are. These advocates and I have
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 4: been working for a while now.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: Or just like prove it. Call it and show us
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: that there weren't enough votes.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, let it fail.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Exactly, let it fail.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 4: Let the consequences of the political choices be known because
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 4: then we'll have new legislators.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: We'll know who voted what and what.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 4: So let that come to a vote in all 23 states.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 4: This is not just in New York that this is problematic.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 4: So don't wait for your horror show in your state.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 4: Check your state law. If it allows voluntary intoxication loophole,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: write to your legislator, the assembly member, the senator, whoever
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 4: it is, and really push for this to be changed proactively.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 4: And last but not least, remember who you're voting for.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 4: Actually ask them what their positions are on sexual violence
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 4: and whether they take this seriously and look at their history.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 4: Have they avoided this issue? Have they stood against this issue?
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 4: There are leaders out there who care deeply about this issue.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 4: There are survivors who are running. I'm one of them
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 4: who recently ran. And I think we'll have a better
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 4: world when the people who have been harmed by the
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 4: failures of our system become the leaders that change the system.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: Agreed.
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. Thank you for being here.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back with Tales from the DMs. Stick around.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Brief Recess. This is Tales from the DMs.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: I'm Michael.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: I'm Melissa. And friends, what do I always say? While
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: Michael is a lawyer, he's not your lawyer. So, you know.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: Get one from somewhere.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: Okay. Kate from Michigan writes, Michael, don't you dare feel
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: bad about donating one shoe. Honey, I'm not going to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: feel bad about it.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: Wait, what?
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: Remember when I bought one shoe on eBay and then
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: I donated it? Thus perpetuating the cycle. People need them
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: more than you think. She's an occupational therapist who works
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: in acute patient rehab for years.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: And often needed just one shoe for patients who had
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: cast some boots. Wait, I've been in an orthopedic boot
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: and I was wearing one shoe. That makes sense.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: It does make sense.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: Well, now you know.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: The more you know.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: The more you know.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: The next time I buy one shoe on eBay, I'm
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: going to be sure to donate it.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Just tell me about it so I could be
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: sure to rip into you like I did the last time.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: She said to get one shoe, I often had to
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: go to a prosthetics department because they usually had the
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: mate to a shoe that had been used to make
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: a prosthetic foot.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: Imagine being a prosthetic maker. That's got to be such
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: a cool job.
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it probably is really, like, very gratifying as well, right? Like,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: here you are. I'm doing a really good thing.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: And it's, like, kind of artistic.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: I think we need to get somebody who makes those,
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: the prosthetics, to ask them how artistic it feels.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: Scientific. I said artistic, not autistic.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: I said, I know.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: I said artistic. Wow.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 4: Oh, no.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: You are getting in all kinds of trouble.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: Just shenanigans.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: Well, honestly, the... The dog people will probably still be
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: worse than all the people I pissed off with this episode.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: Dog people are going to come.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: Let me just say something really funny about the dog people.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: So the messages were, like I said, most of the
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: messages were cool. Except for this one. But at Six
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: Foot Photos, who I know, that's TJ. That's TJ.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: TJ, the person that yelled at me? Yes. And I
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: didn't answer her.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: So she said to me, do you though like dogs?
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: And here's the reason why TJ.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: Because you don't like TJ's dog.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no. So TJ had a dog, Cody,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: who I did not like. Cody was a little dog.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: He was weird looking. He was a Pomeranian with alopecia.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: Wait, Pomeranians are all fur. Not this one. So this
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: is just dust.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: And he always, and every time, I have a really
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: good picture of me and Cody where I'm sitting in
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: a chair and I am giving Cody. The eyes, the eyes.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't like Cody, but Chakala, I do like. He's
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: also a little dog, but he's not a Pomeranian. He's
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: like some kind of a Chihuahua.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: He's cute and I like him. He did.
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: Cody Code.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: Not the autoimmune Pomeranian.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: I did not like that dog at all.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: I dated a guy with alopecia once.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: Did you like him?
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: It's the end of our episode, folks. We'll be back.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: Somebody said... Nicole says, to add to the problem, these
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: people think that, I guess the hardcore dog people, these
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: people think they're the only ones bringing a dog everywhere.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: And somehow you end up in a dog fight.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: They started a dog fighting ring inadvertently. A paranormal activity.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: Amanda says, my Yorkie is a medical alert dog. She's
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: been trained and certified to alert for my chronic illness.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: That said, I 100% agree with you.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: I think that's actually cute. I would love to see
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: a Yorkie, a medical alert Yorkie just barking because someone's
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: having a heart murmur. I think it's actually really adorable.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: Because they're so little.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: You could bring a Yorkie. I wouldn't even know if
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: you had a Yorkie with you.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: I think I was clear when I said I'm not
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: talking about people who have a medical alert dog or
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: like that's not who I'm talking about.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah. No.
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about Michael who brings Jack to the supermarket.
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't do that. No, I know you don't.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: Because now people are going to be like, Michael, why'd
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: you do that? Okay.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, you know what I did want to mention?
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: Do it.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: This whole Krista Pike, real quick.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: So Krista Pike, she woke up. What I thought was
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: really interesting, the first news thing that I saw when
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: Krista Pike woke up is that Krista Pike woke up
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: and she's pissed off.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: And I don't blame her.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: She asked for her iPad.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 4: No, she didn't.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: She asked for her iPad. Did she?
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: I wonder what's going to happen to her. Genuinely. I'm
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: very curious. And I also wonder, are they going to,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: because I can't imagine what her body must be going through.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: Are they going to try and make her better to
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: try and execute her once more?
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: I think probably.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: That is a legitimate question.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: Let's reveal it and we'll do it next week. Okay.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: So join us back here next week. We'll talk more
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: about Krista Pike because I do want to get into it.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: I am curious about that. Okay.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for joining
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: us today. This will air on Thursday. You can watch
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: me on Traders, 8 o'clock on NBC. And I'll see
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: you in hell. See you next week.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 3: Thanks, everybody.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks, everybody. Bye. This has been an Exactly Right production
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: recorded at iHeart Studios, hosted by me, Michael Foote.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: And me, Melissa Malbranch. Our producer is CJ Ferroni.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 1: This episode is edited by Mark Schroeder.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: is Patrick Kottner.
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Tom Breyfogle with artwork
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: from Charlotte Delarue and Vanessa Lilac, with photography by Brad Obono.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: and Danielle Kramer.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: Department or on TikTok at Michael Foote.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: Got legal questions? Reach out at briefrecess at exactlyrightmedia.com. Listen
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: to Brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, we're a
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: podcast with video. Search for Brief Recess on YouTube.