Latest / TIPS Podcast / Just Transition Labour Centre: Interview with Lebogang Mulaisi

Transcript

Just Transition Labour Centre: Interview with Lebogang Mulaisi · TIPS Podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, this is another episode of Tips Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Tobani.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we are here at the Just Transition Labor Center.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I am sitting with Lebokang.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Can you please introduce yourself to our listeners?
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, my name is Lebochang Mulayisi.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I work for the Presidential Climate Commission.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I head up research and policy for the Commission.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Happy to have you here today.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: My first question to you is why do we have the Just Transition Labor Center and why is it important?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the Just Transition Labor Center came out of an idea that the unions had.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: This was around the fact that following sort of like the announcement around South Africa being a recipient of JP financing, that you know there's a rapid move towards decarbonization and the transition primarily in energy was happening quite quickly.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this impacts trade unions specifically because there's an issue related to livelihoods and jobs there.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time the unions felt that they need to have a coordinated research evidence base for this transition so that they could better inform workers, so that you know collective bargaining could be more than just about negotiating wages, but it could be also about jobs in the sector, jobs in industry in the long term, and how sort of employers are starting to think about the transition and how it affects their workforce.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: What key issues does the JTLC need to focus on?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a lot, right?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we have a whole center in place.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the immediate issues to sort of understand is what the transition means at a sectoral level, right?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And what does it mean, not only just for workers, but what does it mean for communities?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, in coal, if there's going to be a phasing down of coal activity, what does it mean for those people that are working in the mines?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean for those who are working in the coal firepower stations?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then ultimately, what does that mean for communities?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because workers don't just come out of nowhere they come from communities.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the more medium to long term, the question is then around what do we need to do to our economy structurally so that we can create alternative sectors, alternative job opportunities, alternative livelihoods.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because with transition, we know comes, you know, job losses because transitions in their nature are disruptive.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the reason why this center exists.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's for the trade union by itself to come up with solutions for this transition.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And for the trade union by itself to communicate what those opportunities are to their membership.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because when it's coming from government, when it's coming from business, you know, there's a trust deficit there.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So if the trade union by itself can come up with solutions, and I mean the trade union does this all the time, right?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that here we're just focusing specifically on the energy transition.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know much really about, you know, the topics that are spoken here.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a communications person.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if I could be skeptical a little bit, I feel like there is some sort of a destabilization in economies through this, whereby you're feeling like a certain region or era is saying you need to decarbonize, and yet, for example, South Africa, we are a coal-based economy.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So now I feel like this is just another era whereby new markets are being created.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And my concern is as we transition, are we going to rely on the North being the ones that generate technology for climate resistance?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Are we the ones that are going to be requiring ideas from there?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: What is our capacity to industrialize and generate our own technologies for climate?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you underestimate yourself.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: From the perspective of a communicator, you actually know a lot.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that is actually the bone of contention, right?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're not that big an emitter when you take into consideration the United States and China.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is we are a carbon-intensive country.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: A large part of our energy mix is reliant on coal.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when you couple that with the fact that we've got an aging coal fleet and infrastructure, that's unsustainable in the long term, right?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw this with low shedding.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we couldn't get the coal-fired power stations to ramp up in time.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: There was just a deficit between supply and demand, and they failed us.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: They failed us because at the heart of it, this is aged infrastructure that we're sitting with, right?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, from the point of view of South Africa, I mean, from anybody sitting at home, you are justified in thinking that this is a European-driven initiative to destabilize Africans, right?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: But for those of us who work in economic development, we see a particular opportunity within this change in our economy.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And listen, transitions are a characteristic of economies.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: As we develop new thinking, new technologies, new ways of doing things, we transition out of the way that we used to do things.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Most economies used to be agriculturally based, not so much anymore.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: They moved into being industrial economies.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the way in which matured economies function, right?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So from the point of view of the South African case, I think we have to be honest about a number of things.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the coal-based industrial paradigm has served our economy for a particular point in time, right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't take a genius to look at the fact that there is a decline.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: There is a decline.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: There is a decline in mining activity.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is because of, you know, a number of countries that are reducing their reliance on coal-based electricity and fossil fuels.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's been a decline because even here in the South African case, we are no longer getting really cheap electricity anymore from coal.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And this is not because of coal as an import cost, but because of a number of things that happen that compound the cost of coal-based electricity.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: So from that point of view, we've reached a particular point in terms of our fossil fuel-driven economy.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we are an open economy as well.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: We trade with the rest of the world.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we are also vulnerable to whatever the world decides to do with its markets.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't adapt in time, we unfortunately close ourselves off from being exporters of choice, and we will be overtaken by other countries.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And those impacts are devastating, particularly for our gross domestic product.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when you look at those internal related realities, it is in our best interest to pursue a different growth paradigm that is greener and cleaner in nature.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: With green technologies, what we're seeing is that the learning curves are declining, cost of electricity is actually quite cheap relative to coal and other energy sources.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got an opportunity to again be an energy-intensive country, but energy intensive with green energy now.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an attraction for industries.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: They want cheap electricity and they want ease of doing business.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that will attract them to your economy to set up their operations.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: So these are the things that we have to think about when we think about the full picture.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know the conversation is sometimes rooted in like electricity and what's happening to the electricity sector or energy, but it has ripple effects in terms of our economy and how our economy functions.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: But like I said, this is easier said than done.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's a disruption at the end of the day.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: We have built value chains, we have built regions, we have built a lot of things, our industrial policies on the basis of this energy mix.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a disruption in nature, but necessary because from what I've seen, again, a fossil fueled intensive economy is only going to take us up to a particular point.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And if we are interested in increasing jobs, increasing livelihood opportunities, changing the structures of ownership within this country, this is a viable alternative to what we've previously known.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I hear you.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: So where do you see the future of the JTLZ?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I want to see it being like I want to see it replicated across other regions, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the reasons why I had a particular keen interest in having a labor center that focuses on just transition here in South Africa is because I had first seen one that serviced like a number of countries.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this was the International Trade Union Confederation Just Transition Center, but it was more global in its focus and it assisted South Africans.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I had a feeling that we need something for South Africans that South Africans can drive.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And also that helps you take ownership of your just transition journey, right?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that it's not a European, because I mean Europeans can transition tomorrow, they've got the money to do it, they've got the technology, just like you said, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas we have like serious things that we need to take into consideration that affects the pace of our transition.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I felt that we needed to have a South African just transition labor center.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: My hope is that this is a model that can get replicated in like different countries across Africa, definitely.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So Senegal, Nigeria, these are the things that I think are really important.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Funny enough, like people from Botswana want to set up a labor center.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Not because they're transitioning, they don't have like a carbon intense, well, they do because they get their electricity from us.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not regionally based for them, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So they don't have the problems that we have with Mbumalanga and stuff.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: But how they look at it is that, you know, this transition or these centers can be a hub for economic development strategies that are linked to decarbonization, which I think is important.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's important because people look at this as, you know, hippies trying to green.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, greening is great.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's amazing, but really this is more about economic development over and above like anything else.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my vision.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: My vision is we can replicate this model across various other regions, but also it becomes sort of like a hub for knowledge.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I have gotten my best ideas working in the trade union, and because I feel like trade unions are just universities, they don't give you accreditation or anything, but I think they are universities and you can learn a lot.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what I'm hoping, you know, the center can also start to become like this hub of knowledge, information, and it can shape policy.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, in the research that the center contributes, I also heard you say it is evidence-based.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: We are Africa, and I just feel like even if you look at something like the African Continental Free Trade, which is like a trade policy rather than an industrial policy.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want this center to also contribute research that could provide opportunities as far as regionalism is concerned to just say we have a mine over there in Mozambique, Zimbabwe, we have another one here.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: How can we combine forces to transition in a certain way?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what's your take just on regionalism in this center?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we haven't done that really well, right?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because everybody, everybody is so nationally focused uh when looking at the transition.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone is trying to decarbonize in time, make themselves really attractive to the European Union market.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's a strength if we're just looking at business.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: I actually don't think that that's the way to go about it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: For me, one of the things this transition is challenging is the standpoint of Africa as a united force that is able to do business with each other, so from the point of view of the Africa free trade agreement, but their ability to come together in a way that they previously haven't done, right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: So Africans do a little beauty pageant and they want to be attractive to like, you know, European markets, Western markets.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because, to a large extent, I mean, this is how our economies have been structured, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you this is you do what you know.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: But what this transition actually provides us with is an opportunity to extend our unity amongst each other, look for opportunities within the continent, develop technology, transfer the technology within the continent so that we can share best practice and ideas.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: That for me, I think, is the best thing.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, in the era of Trump Tariffs and in the era of CBAM and in the era of whatever's going on, we're still not looking internally to sort of strengthen our collaboration so that we can trade with one another much better.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a key opportunity for the African continent that I hope gets strengthened.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Last week I attended a global south exchange with trade unions from the global south.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these are the things that they're starting to talk about.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: That there is an ideological shift that's taking place as a result of this transition.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: It just begs the question: why are we not better coordinated and integrated as a region, having so much wealth in terms of resources, a youth dividend, as well as just really talented people in our region that can take us to the next level?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully these types of conversations, and I hope we can break down this nationalism that's happening, um, where people are just interested in preparing their markets, but just like a broader conversation around regional coordination and integration.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Lubu Khan.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any final remarks?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe just to say that, I mean, I acknowledge that transitions are difficult, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge that they're difficult to do.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd rather just not do them, not get involved in it.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's the approach.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: People tell you've got a hundred-year reserve of coal, we must just stick to what we know how to do.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is how our economy has functioned for years.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: In the light of that, I think what we need to realize that we have an opportunity here as a country, as a continent, to do things differently.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're the most unequal country in the world.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have a chance through energy generation, um, through renewable energy plants to break down those concentrations of ownership because renewable energy plants don't require the type of you know economies of scale that you would need from a coal-fired power station.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: These are the opportunities that exist in this transition.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not transitioning for the sake of transitioning, but we're transitioning to leave this country in a better position to address our critical challenges, but to also have a prosperous country, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I often get very upset when people think social cohesion happens as a result of sporting matches.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Social cohesion happens when people feel like they're participating in the economy.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we have an opportunity to do that, you know, social inclusion, economic participation for people who have been on the margins of our economy for the longest time.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is our chance to do that.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: So those of us who are working in this space, that's our challenge, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: To wake up every day and do the work of realizing the opportunities, but not in like a market-centric way, but to do it in such a way that we really break the back of unemployment, inequality, and poverty.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Leboffin.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And good luck with the work that you do in the presidency office, it's