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Transcript

Friends of Dorothy · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: And Samantha.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: And welcome to Stuff Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: And welcome. As you listen to this, who knows what
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: when it is? I don't know. But we are recording
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of stuff to get ready for some travel,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: for our voyage. So we're trying to get ahead. So
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: this is coming out, I believe, early to mid-October, and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: we're recording it September 22nd, just so you know. And
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: it's going to be a short episode. It's going to
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: be reminiscent of our Monday minis, just to lighten the
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: load on us a little bit as we are trying
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: to get all of this stuff done. And I have
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: to say, my queerbaiting saga continues. You know that we're almost,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: this is like 10 months, and I'm still working through
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: these topics. And what I will tell you is that
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I have learned so much. That's my silver lining, is
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: that I actually have learned a lot. And right now,
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: in October, Atlanta celebrates Pride, and there are a lot
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: of Pride days or weeks during October. I know there's
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: an ACE Celebration Day in October.
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  Speaker 2: So I.
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  Speaker 1: Felt like this was appropriate because what we're going to
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  Speaker 1: be talking about now is the history of a phrase
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: called a friend of Dorothy. Yes. So as we've discussed
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: at length, there has been a long history of queer language, slang,
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  Speaker 1: and coded language, especially in when being queer wasn't legal
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: or safe. So these were things that you would use
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  Speaker 1: in your community that would communicate that you were queer,
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  Speaker 1: that only other queer people would understand, hopefully. So asking
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  Speaker 1: or saying you were a friend of Dorothy was a
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  Speaker 1: way of doing that, especially amongst gay men. Essentially, if
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  Speaker 1: a gay man was attracted to another man, he'd ask,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Are you a friend of Dorothy? And gauge the other
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: man's response. Like, did he get it at all? Was
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: he like, who? What are you talking about? Probably not queer.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: But what I will say about this is that if
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: you're looking at especially younger queer people, they might not
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: have known that. So it's not, it's not, it wasn't
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: foolproof at all. Because I'm just learning about this now.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like, so I don't think
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  Speaker 1: it was, you know, ironclad. I know for sure they
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: didn't get it. It might just be that they had
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: not been educated, especially when there wasn't a lot of
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: resources about this stuff and it wasn't necessarily written down anywhere.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: But that was kind of the, in the gay community,
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  Speaker 1: that was a question you could ask and sort of
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: see if they understood it.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: From a Mental Floss article by Lorna Wallace called How
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Friend of Dorothy Became Code in the Gay Community, quote,
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  Speaker 1: In the 1980s, the U.S. Navy carried out a futile
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: search for a woman who didn't exist. The Naval Investigative Service, NIS,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: had learned that gay men sometimes referred to themselves as
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Friends of Dorothy and assumed that, as Randy Schiltz explained
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: in 1993's Conduct Unbecoming, Gays and Lesbians in the U.S. Military,
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  Speaker 1: A woman named Dorothy was the hub of an enormous
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: ring of military homosexuals in the Chicago area. The NIS
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: made it their mission to find this elusive Dorothy, thinking
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: that they could get her to reveal the names of
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: gay Navy personnel. But as members of the gay community
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: already knew, the phrase didn't actually refer to a real woman. Instead,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: it was a discreet way for people in the closet
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: to identify each other. So obviously this is really terrible
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: and upsetting, and I hate it. But there is something
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: kind of funny about them trying to track down a
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: real woman named Dorothy.
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  Speaker 2: Right, right. At least, like, you gotta find humor somehow.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Who's at the center of this whole thing. So where
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: did this phrase come from? There are a couple of theories.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: One is that it came from a woman named Dorothy Parker,
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  Speaker 1: who was a member of the Algonquin roundtable who invited
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  Speaker 1: gay men to fancy events in the 1920s and 30s. However,
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  Speaker 1: the biggest and most popular explanation has to do with
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  Speaker 1: the fictional character Dorothy Gale from The Wizard of Oz,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: and specifically the rendition played by Judy Garland in the
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  Speaker 1: 1939 adaptation of Frank Baum's book. So I actually think
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  Speaker 1: we talked about this recently. I can't remember what episode
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: it was. But Garland did become a gay icon after this.
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  Speaker 2: And she was happy to be one.
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  Speaker 1: She was happy to be one. All right. Here's a
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: quote from Daniel Harris's 1997 work, The Rise and Fall
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  Speaker 1: of Gay Culture. When Judy came onto the stage, we
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  Speaker 1: were the loudest and most exuberant part of that audience.
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  Speaker 1: We not only listened, we felt all the lyrics of
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  Speaker 1: all the songs. Judy Garland was all ours. She belonged
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  Speaker 1: to every gay guy and girl in the theater. And
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  Speaker 1: other articles I was reading, they were talking about Somewhere
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Over the Rainbow, which is the flagship song of the film,
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  Speaker 1: and rainbows becoming a symbol of the LGBTQ plus community.
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  Speaker 1: And Over the Rainbow, your dreams really do come true.
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  Speaker 1: So like, you can... dream of this thing that maybe
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  Speaker 1: feels out of touch or not safe or dangerous, but
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  Speaker 1: over the rainbow, it is possible. Queer love saves the world. Perhaps...
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Another thing people point out is that the Cowardly Lion,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: you could argue, is kind of a sissy stereotype. Kind
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: of a stereotypical gay sissy stereotype. And he says, any
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  Speaker 1: friend of Dorothy must be our friend as well. In
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  Speaker 1: some interpretations, the Scarecrow and Tin Man are also gay
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  Speaker 1: stereotypes or tropes and or just gay. And Dorothy is
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  Speaker 1: just befriending all of them and, like, bringing them on
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  Speaker 1: the Illabric Road, helping them get what they need. A
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  Speaker 1: friend of Dorothy. Mm-hmm. Garland, yes, she had a lot
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  Speaker 1: of gay male friends and reportedly told her daughter to
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: marry a gay man, which I believe is what we discussed. Maybe. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: because she didn't have a great go of it, uh,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: As I was reading this, I was reminded of things
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  Speaker 1: I'd forgotten. I was like, this is horrible. This is
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: really terrible what happened. But back to that mental floss article.
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  Speaker 1: It has been theorized, however, that the phrase predates Garland's
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  Speaker 1: ruby slipper wearing Dorothy, possibly tracing its roots to that
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  Speaker 1: character's source in L. Frank Baum's Oz books. In 1909's
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  Speaker 1: The Road to Oz, Dorothy is told, you have some
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  Speaker 1: queer friends, to which she replies, The queerness doesn't matter
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: so long as they're friends. That's, yeah. It made so
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  Speaker 1: much sense. I never put together that it might be
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  Speaker 1: this character, friend of Dorothy. But it made so much
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  Speaker 1: sense when I read it. I was like, oh.
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  Speaker 2: I knew it was absolutely related to Judy Garland. Like,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: that was the obvious. You know what I realized, too?
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: That it was actually said, that phrase was said in Clueless.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, was it?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, in referencing to Cher's crush, who turned out to be, like,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: he was gay. And he was like, dude, he was
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: a friend of Dorothy. Like, he uses that phrase. And
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: I never, I knew what it meant. I didn't realize
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  Speaker 2: it was a phrase.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Oh, I didn't pick up on that. Yeah, I mean,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: people are still using it. I found a lot of
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: interesting articles about, you know, what's the lesbian version of this?
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: And there are a couple of ones. But most people
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: are like, no, lesbians use this too. It just was
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: sort of... In the beginning, this was what was being
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: reported on, but now lesbians have adopted it as well.
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  Speaker 1: But it's still used.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and it's one of the things I wanted
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: to bring up, and this is kind of a tangent,
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  Speaker 1: but I think it's interesting that this story, the Wizard
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  Speaker 1: of Oz, has... this character that inspired this phrase. But also,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: with the recent movies, Wicked, I haven't seen them. I've
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: seen the play. But I know there was a big
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: conversation about queerbaiting with that. But also, like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of some gay stuff happening in there.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of gay actors in there, so.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Throw it up in there.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And then I was thinking about the song,
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  Speaker 1: Elton John's song, So Long, Yellow Brick Road.
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  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 1: Which did recently come up in a fan fiction I
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: was reading about some gay characters. But what's interesting about
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: that song is that the song is about wanting to
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: get back to the simple life. Not like realizing, you know,
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  Speaker 1: this Hollywood life is not for you. But it was
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  Speaker 1: sort of adopted to be. I don't want to pretend
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  Speaker 1: to be straight anymore. I'd rather be my authentic self.
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  Speaker 1: So there's something about this property that has resonated. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: For sure. And I was very happy. to learn about this,
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  Speaker 1: even though I was depressed about the Judy Garland stuff
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  Speaker 1: that happened. That was sad.
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  Speaker 2: There's a lot of up and downs. Yeah. There's a
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: lot of up and downs. Understanding language in such a
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: way we don't know where the phrases come from. We've
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  Speaker 2: talked about this in rhetoric and speech and pronouns and
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  Speaker 2: in talking about how different marginalized groups use language and
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  Speaker 2: why we should understand what that is. But also, like, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: the codes and different words and different ways things are phrased. Again, like,
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  Speaker 2: Friend of Dorothy, maybe it was also in a Sex
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  Speaker 2: and the City episode, Annie?
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  Speaker 1: Ooh.
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  Speaker 2: Because, again, there's also a... I don't think we've met
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: him yet. Have we met him yet? No, we haven't
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: met him yet. I told you the Nate... Nathan. Birdcage.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, Nathan Lane.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Nathan Lane. So Nathan Lane pops up in a Sex
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  Speaker 2: and the City episode, and it kind of feels like
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: a tribute to the birdcage because his character is a
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  Speaker 2: straight dude that seems very gay. And I don't know
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  Speaker 2: if that's where he, that phrase comes up again. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But like, it definitely has popped up. So I never
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  Speaker 2: understood that as a phrase, a common phrase. As much
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  Speaker 2: as that it just is said, I guess, which is
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  Speaker 2: interesting how I took that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's kind of fascinating because it implies that
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  Speaker 1: it was... Either they did really well, they being like
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  Speaker 1: the gay community at the time that was really using it,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: at keeping it like gatekept. Yeah. But still enough people
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  Speaker 1: knew it. Because I didn't know it either, but I'd
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  Speaker 1: heard it. I just didn't know what it meant. Or,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's so fascinating that we would know
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the phrase and not know what it means, that it
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  Speaker 1: got that big. And a lot of things I've read
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  Speaker 1: about it from older, like the 80s, people writing about
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: it in the 80s, like it was still really scary
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  Speaker 1: to say it because you didn't know for sure. if
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  Speaker 1: you could trust somebody, maybe they did know what it
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  Speaker 1: meant and actually were going to harm you because of it.
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  Speaker 1: But a lot of what I was reading was it
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  Speaker 1: was usually the response was what or who, like they
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  Speaker 1: didn't know, which sounds like that, so it was really contained.
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  Speaker 1: But also there were some usually older gay people who
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: were who kind of lamented that they couldn't just say
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  Speaker 1: it to younger gay people who maybe were struggling and didn't.
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  Speaker 1: And there's no place for them to learn this unless
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: they somehow find gay literature or gay community, but they
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  Speaker 1: might be too afraid or too confused to not know.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And so... The limitations of it seems so effective in
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: that they apparently, straight people didn't know what it meant.
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  Speaker 1: They thought there's a real woman named Dorothy trying to
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: get to the bottom of it.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, there were real women named Dorothy. I mean,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: that probably caused a lot of trouble for all those
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Dorothys out there. So sorry to y'all. Also, I'm trying to,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: because I don't know specifically... background of The Wizard of Oz.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: The Wizard of Oz was controversial, even though it comes
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: across as a children's story, later as a children's movie,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: but it actually has some political connotations within it. I
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: know you talked about the one phrase about queerness in it.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: I wonder if anything else within that was, because if
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: We know poppies were representing the drug industry and drugs
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: in general and all those different things. So I'm like,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I wonder what this level in this conversation was because
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: looking back on the context of the book and how
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: he was writing it, maybe there's more depth to it
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: that we don't know. Yeah.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Well, and one thing I was thinking about specifically with
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: the movie is And this is broad generalizations, broad strokes.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: But Dorothy goes to Oz, and that's when the world
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: becomes really colorful. And it's like she goes to this
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: world over the rainbow, and it's so different from her sepia-toned,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: bland Kansas life. She goes to this city, which was
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: a big thing. In the 1980s, that, you know, if
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: you were gay, you would go to the city and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: hopefully find more acceptance than you might find in a
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: small town. Which, by the way, I have a lot
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of critiques on. But that's, again, generalized strokes. So it's
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: like this very bright, colorful place that has a lot
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: of fashion and a lot of camp. There's a lot
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: of camp in it. And so to me, it makes
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: sense that that would resonate as well. I would be
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: curious because, you know, the kind of ultimate lesson, the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: climax of The Wizard of Oz is that it was
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: a kind of all a lie. The wizard was a
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: lie anyway. And you just need to go home. You
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: had this stuff with you all along, which I guess,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: you know, Gay acceptance, you could make an argument about that.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: But I would love to hear what people's thoughts are
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: about that. But it makes sense to me. Like I said,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: when I was reading it, I was like, oh yeah, okay.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: That's where it comes from. Listeners, if you have any
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: thoughts about this, if you have anything that we missed,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: any reference, pop culture reference that we missed that uses this,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: please let us know. You can email us at hello
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: at stephanievertoldyou.com. You can find us on Blue Skype, MomSuppodcast,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stephanievertoldyou. We're also on YouTube.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: We have some merchandise at Cotton Puro, and we have
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: a book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: as always, to our super producer, Rima, and our executive producer, Maya.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening. Stephan Never Told You
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
• 17:50
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• 17:52
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