Latest / The Book Deal / The Publishing Deal: behind the scenes with publisher, publicist and author, Kelly Doust

Transcript

The Publishing Deal: behind the scenes with publisher, publicist and author, Kelly Doust · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast
• 0:11
  Madeleine Cleary: where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Tina Strachan: So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:27
  Tina Strachan: We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Natasha Rai: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
• 0:37
  Madeleine Cleary: one deal at a time.
• 0:39
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: Hi, everyone.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: This is usually our Catch Up ep when, Madeleine, Tina and I have a catch up and we talk about how we're going.
• 1:03
  Natasha Rai: But today's episode, we have a very special guest that we've invited to join us, Kelly Doust.
• 1:09
  Natasha Rai: So Kelly is a publishing professional with over two decades experience with three of the Big Five and Australia's leading independents.
• 1:17
  Natasha Rai: A publisher of fiction and non-fiction, she's also the author of eight books of her own.
• 1:21
  Natasha Rai: Kelly recently launched Publishing Curious to provide industry advice and services, along with a weekly Substack newsletter.
• 1:29
  Natasha Rai: In The Insider's Guide to Book Publishing, she covers the ins and outs of the industry in frank detail to help demystify it for authors looking to be published.
• 1:38
  Natasha Rai: I think this will be a really good chat, and, looking forward to uncovering some of those secrets together.
• 1:43
  Natasha Rai: Enjoy Hey, Kelly.
• 1:49
  Natasha Rai: Welcome to The Book Deal.
• 1:52
  Kellie Doust: Hello to the both of you.
• 1:53
  Kellie Doust: Thank you so much for having me on.
• 1:55
  Natasha Rai: It's our pleasure.
• 1:56
  Natasha Rai: Um, we have so many questions for you, so we might just get straight into it.
• 2:00
  Natasha Rai: Um, so you've been in the publishing industry for over two decades.
• 2:05
  Natasha Rai: Tell us a little bit about, like, your career trajectory and h- kind of how it went, and also tell us about Publishing Curious.
• 2:15
  Kellie Doust: Okay.
• 2:15
  Kellie Doust: So I started in publishing in my early 20s.
• 2:18
  Kellie Doust: My first role was at McGraw Hill, which is a business and trade publisher.
• 2:24
  Kellie Doust: I was working in the marketing department.
• 2:27
  Kellie Doust: Um, I had come out of a, a sort of post-grad diploma in book editing and publishing, and started there.
• 2:35
  Kellie Doust: I thought I wanted to be an editor, but, um, my editorial teacher said, "I think you'd be better in publicity." So I landed in marketing and publicity.
• 2:44
  Kellie Doust: I worked as a book publicist for many years.
• 2:47
  Kellie Doust: I, uh, traveled and lived in Hong Kong and then in London, and I worked in publishing over there.
• 2:55
  Kellie Doust: And then when I came back to Australia in 2004, I started working at Allen Unwin as a book publicist, and ended up becoming publicity manager there.
• 3:06
  Kellie Doust: After that, I left to write full time.
• 3:12
  Kellie Doust: I did that for about eight years.
• 3:14
  Kellie Doust: I then worked, um, for a year at an audiobook company as an audiobook editor, choosing books from major publishers to turn into audiobooks.
• 3:25
  Kellie Doust: And then I started working as a lifestyle publisher at Murdoch Books, and then I left to join Affirm Press over five years ago because I really wanted to work with fiction as well.
• 3:38
  Kellie Doust: And I've written eight books of my own, including a couple of novels.
• 3:43
  Kellie Doust: And I set up Publishing Curious after being mare- made redundant, and the reason I really wanted to set it up is because I spent so much of my time giving authors advice one on one, and it was always surprising to me- how little they understood about the whole publishing ecosystem, how it works, and, um, just all the intricacies of it, even if they were really quite experienced authors.
• 4:11
  Kellie Doust: So Publishing Curious came out of a desire to wanna help people understand it more.
• 4:17
  Kellie Doust: Um, to provide some one-on-one services, but really just to educate.
• 4:22
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 4:23
  Natasha Rai: Fr- from what you've seen, like is that a deliberate thing or is that Like, how come it's so hidden and mysterious and opaque?
• 4:32
  Kellie Doust: I don't think it is deliberate.
• 4:34
  Kellie Doust: Okay.
• 4:34
  Kellie Doust: I think that publishers are people just like you and me, and they want to be honest with authors, but they don't want to discourage them, and sometimes they're dealing with a lot of challenges such as, um, retail spending being down and it really affecting books because books are retail.
• 4:56
  Kellie Doust: We all know that the economy's very bad at the moment, and, um, retail spending is in recession.
• 5:03
  Kellie Doust: So that has not been great for books.
• 5:05
  Kellie Doust: There's some other factors at play that are affecting books as well.
• 5:09
  Kellie Doust: But I don't think it's because publishers are deliberately trying to mislead or obscure the truth, but they're also very busy.
• 5:18
  Kellie Doust: And working day to day, you don't realize what people don't necessarily know or understand, or you don't have the time to tell everybody.
• 5:27
  Kellie Doust: So there isn't that one resource where you can get that information.
• 5:32
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 5:34
  Tina Strachan: Kelly, do you think they're also trying to keep morale high and spirits high with their authors, do you think?
• 5:39
  Tina Strachan: Because, um And not share that sort of I mean, they're sharing that information, but it's always just, um, you know, people wanna know more about it obviously.
• 5:47
  Tina Strachan: But do you think it's Sometimes there is, um, maybe, especially like you said, retail spending's in recession now.
• 5:55
  Tina Strachan: Uh, some au- authors may just not handle that information very well if they actually knew all the nitty-gritty-
• 6:02
  Kellie Doust: Definitely.
• 6:03
  Kellie Doust: I don't think anyone who loves books wants to discourage writers from writing
• 6:08
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 6:09
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 6:09
  Kellie Doust: And let's face it, when you're a writer, you know, you do feel already outside of the process, and a little isolated because it is a very solitary activity.
• 6:21
  Kellie Doust: You can be quite sensitive to, um, some of those shifts, and you don't necessarily want to hear that things are going badly.
• 6:31
  Kellie Doust: So yes, I guess publishers do try to couch it in a way that can be encouraging and, and, and doesn't discourage you from writing.
• 6:40
  Kellie Doust: But I always tried to be really honest with people as much as I could be.
• 6:45
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 6:47
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 6:47
  Tina Strachan: No, that makes sense.
• 6:48
  Tina Strachan: So, um, can you tell us a little bit more about Publishing Curious though?
• 6:52
  Tina Strachan: So is there something that Do you still work one on one with authors or is it more about just widely, uh, spread- spreading and sharing information?
• 7:01
  Kellie Doust: Well, so I set up Substack, um, a newsletter called Publisher Curious: An Insider's Guide to Book Publishing, because I thought it would be a good way to just reach as many people as possible with the information.
• 7:14
  Kellie Doust: But I'm finding that it has generated a lot of, um, interest in authors coming to me for one-on-one, um, discussions.
• 7:24
  Kellie Doust: They Even though they're following it, they want to talk about their specific situation, and everybody's specific situation is very different.
• 7:33
  Kellie Doust: Every book is very different.
• 7:34
  Kellie Doust: So it's been great actually.
• 7:37
  Kellie Doust: Most of, uh, the work that I've been doing has been, you know, a one-hour discussion with people, maybe a little bit longer, to just talk about their situation and what they're trying to achieve, and maybe w- why it's landing the way it is or how it would land in the market if they pitched it.
• 7:55
  Kellie Doust: I'm also doing pitch development with people who, um, perhaps don't understand how to hone that pitch and make it as hooky as possible for a publisher to take it on board.
• 8:08
  Kellie Doust: I've done some manuscript assessment for people both in fiction and nonfiction.
• 8:14
  Kellie Doust: And truly, the, the people that are coming to me are such a range.
• 8:18
  Kellie Doust: I have had people who, um, are writing for the first time and have not a single contact in the industry, and do not understand at all where their book might be sitting.
• 8:30
  Kellie Doust: And then there are also people contacting me where I think, "You really don't need me.
• 8:35
  Kellie Doust: You could get yourself a deal very easily." And it's just It's, it's been such a joy to be working with people at those different levels and still feeling like I'm adding some value.
• 8:48
  Tina Strachan: And it really goes to show, doesn't it, that, like we were saying before, uh, it doesn't matter if it's your first book or if you're a debut author, if you've not even signed.
• 8:56
  Tina Strachan: Like you were saying, people who seem to have be able to just get these deals on their own, they still have these questions.
• 9:02
  Tina Strachan: Doesn't matter how good their val- their, um, writing is and their pitching and stuff, it They still Everyone just We all still seem to have these questions about it all.
• 9:09
  Tina Strachan: That sounds like a fantastic, um, a fantastic- Mm-hmm thing to offer people, Kelly.
• 9:15
  Kellie Doust: Yeah.
• 9:16
  Kellie Doust: Um- I f- I really am enjoying it so much.
• 9:18
  Kellie Doust: It's, it's been great.
• 9:20
  Natasha Rai: S- so, so given that obviously, as you said, each book is different, each writer is different, in terms of your experience so far in the industry- When you look at like an indie or an independent publisher compared to the big five, are there pros and cons for both, each?
• 9:38
  Kellie Doust: Absolutely.
• 9:39
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 9:39
  Kellie Doust: Well, we, we all know that a lot of the indies are being absorbed by the majors now.
• 9:43
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 9:44
  Kellie Doust: Um, so there are far fewer of them around.
• 9:47
  Kellie Doust: And, uh, yeah, that is presenting its own challenges because some of those books that might have been picked up by the indies are now not going to get a look in at the major publishing houses.
• 10:00
  Kellie Doust: So there are definitely pros and cons.
• 10:04
  Kellie Doust: Um, the bigger the house you're with, the more books on their list, quite simply.
• 10:08
  Kellie Doust: And the smaller the house you're with, you might not get such a great advance, but you might be a greater priority on that list and get a lot more attention from the team.
• 10:23
  Kellie Doust: So you really have to I mean, I think instinct comes into it a lot.
• 10:27
  Kellie Doust: You have to sort of look at what your goals are as an author and what's important to you, and then assess that based on the people that you're connecting with and are interested.
• 10:41
  Kellie Doust: And you I do think that trusting your gut comes into it quite a lot of the time, because I've Over the years I've lost out on lots of books I would have loved to work on to bigger publishing houses, um, to bigger advances.
• 10:57
  Kellie Doust: But, you know, I don't know that necessarily those authors always got the extra that they thought that they were going to get from that process.
• 11:06
  Kellie Doust: Sometimes they definitely do.
• 11:08
  Kellie Doust: Um, there might be, you know, bigger spend put behind it in terms of advertising and marketing and more support.
• 11:16
  Kellie Doust: But a lot of those times what might have been a lead title for us would be a, a, not a lead title for a major publisher.
• 11:25
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 11:25
  Kellie Doust: And that makes a big difference.
• 11:27
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 11:27
  Natasha Rai: And, and have you had writers, especially emerging writers, ask you, like even how to set goals or like what they should be paying attention to?
• 11:37
  Kellie Doust: Definitely.
• 11:37
  Kellie Doust: And, you know, one of my first pieces of, of advice to people is become part of the writing community.
• 11:45
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 11:46
  Kellie Doust: And there's so many ways that you can do that.
• 11:48
  Kellie Doust: You can Um, you need to educate yourself.
• 11:51
  Kellie Doust: You really need to try and learn as much as you can about this industry if you're serious about being a career author, and serious about doing the best thing by your book and your writing.
• 12:02
  Kellie Doust: So you can engage with other readers through book groups.
• 12:08
  Kellie Doust: You can go to your local booksellers and have lots of chats with them.
• 12:11
  Kellie Doust: Definitely start out by going to lots of author events, to festivals.
• 12:16
  Kellie Doust: Um, join writing workshops.
• 12:19
  Kellie Doust: Create writing groups of your own or join an existing writing group.
• 12:23
  Kellie Doust: All of these things are incredibly valuable.
• 12:26
  Kellie Doust: Um, Natasha, I saw Were you part of the Debut Crew in 2025?
• 12:32
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, we both were T- and, and Madeleine.
• 12:33
  Natasha Rai: The three of us, yeah.
• 12:35
  Kellie Doust: Yes.
• 12:35
  Kellie Doust: Incredible.
• 12:36
  Kellie Doust: So I published a number of the authors in that crew.
• 12:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 12:40
  Kellie Doust: How many of you are there?
• 12:41
  Kellie Doust: Over 70, right?
• 12:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, something like that, isn't it, Tina?
• 12:45
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 12:45
  Tina Strachan: And that's just in that one sort of, yeah, little Facebook group.
• 12:48
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 12:48
  Tina Strachan: I'm sure there's, there's others around, yeah.
• 12:51
  Kellie Doust: So I just found that so heartwarming to watch the support that that group of people were giving each other.
• 12:59
  Kellie Doust: Um, you know, there, there can be an impression that writers are scared to maybe share their ideas because they're worried someone's gonna steal it.
• 13:08
  Kellie Doust: Um, my advice for that would always be that, you know, nobody will do something the same way as you do it.
• 13:15
  Kellie Doust: Two writers will approach even exactly the same topic in a completely different way just because they're individuals.
• 13:21
  Kellie Doust: And so I don't think there's anything to be lost and so much to be gained from being part of a supportive community of writers.
• 13:29
  Kellie Doust: I just loved watching all of you attend each other's launches, um, s- spruik each other's books.
• 13:37
  Kellie Doust: Um- And just generally be, you know, really good writing citizens.
• 13:44
  Kellie Doust: Um, it's, it's noted by the publishing industry.
• 13:47
  Kellie Doust: It's, um, it's really welcome, and I think you're doing great work because you're supporting other writers who are also in the same situation.
• 13:57
  Tina Strachan: I love that.
• 13:57
  Tina Strachan: I love hearing, um, that it's noted by the publishing industries, and it's something that I never would have actually considered that, to be honest.
• 14:03
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 14:03
  Tina Strachan: And, um, and certainly not why everyone's, um, doing it.
• 14:06
  Tina Strachan: But it is...
• 14:07
  Tina Strachan: It's, uh, I think for myself even, I've realized that it's like a community like no other industry I've ever been in before.
• 14:13
  Tina Strachan: Everybody...
• 14:14
  Tina Strachan: No one's com- no one's competitive.
• 14:16
  Tina Strachan: Everybody is lifting each other up, and it's very, very special.
• 14:20
  Tina Strachan: And I'm sure there will be lifelong friends out of this, like me, T- Natasha, and Madeleine.
• 14:25
  Tina Strachan: Like we you know, we created this podcast and, and a lot of that was because of that information that we were sharing in the Debut Crew, which was such gold information that just we, we wanted to sort of share a little bit further, and ask the questions, but, you know, to the people like yourselves who have that inside knowledge and, and share it around.
• 14:43
  Tina Strachan: So, um, yes, definitely if you aren't a part...
• 14:47
  Tina Strachan: If you're a writer and you're not part of a writing group yet, definitely join one, and if you're, uh, have just signed, try and find that Debut Crew that you can be a part of as well, 'cause it, it really is very, very special.
• 14:59
  Kellie Doust: I've just also had people say to me, "But what, um, about if I live rurally, if I live outside of the major centers?" And there's still a lot online is what I'd say.
• 15:10
  Kellie Doust: Um, not just on social media, but there's lots of Zooms and workshops that are done, um, online that you can participate in.
• 15:20
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, there is.
• 15:20
  Tina Strachan: There's a lot.
• 15:21
  Tina Strachan: My, um, local, our Brisbane writing and, uh, children's writing group, Book Links, they d- have monthly meetings, and they also Zoom It's also on Zoom as well.
• 15:30
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, for people who can't make it in, um, they can, yeah, uh, listen online, which is so helpful.
• 15:35
  Tina Strachan: And I think, so I think a lot of places probably do that now too.
• 15:38
  Tina Strachan: So Kelly, uh, so say you're actually in the position where you are, uh, it's the dream position, right?
• 15:44
  Tina Strachan: To have multiple, publishers, uh, looking at your books and maybe potentially wanting to sign you.
• 15:49
  Tina Strachan: Can you tell us a little bit about acquisitions meetings and what happens in the acquisitions meetings?
• 15:54
  Tina Strachan: Um, it's something that I knew nothing about, and I tried to You know, when my books went to acquisitions meetings, I tried desperately to find information, and I think I found a couple of, um, a couple of podcasts, and I was desperately Googling, trying to get some information.
• 16:08
  Tina Strachan: But can you tell us a little bit about that and a little bit about, um, who makes those decisions, and who holds the power maybe in those-
• 16:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, who holds the power?
• 16:16
  Tina Strachan: acquisitions
• 16:17
  Natasha Rai: meetings?
• 16:19
  Kellie Doust: Well, it can be very different depending on the house you're with.
• 16:22
  Kellie Doust: So I've worked in a smaller house where to begin with that conversation was three people, uh, making that decision, and that was quite fun.
• 16:34
  Kellie Doust: As a publisher, it was excellent.
• 16:38
  Kellie Doust: Uh, but you know, it's good to have more people involved because, you know, you ask 10 different people, you'll get 10 different answers, and it is quite good to have the perspective of pro- of professionals from all different areas of the business.
• 16:54
  Kellie Doust: So- You know, initially I enjoyed being in those smaller meetings after having been in meetings that were 15 strong.
• 17:03
  Kellie Doust: But I think, you know, there is a sort of sweet spot where you've got a representative from marketing, a representative from publicity, certainly a representative from sales, that's incredibly important, and the publishing team.
• 17:21
  Kellie Doust: So these, I think, are the most important people to be there.
• 17:26
  Kellie Doust: But in a larger publishing house, finance wants to be involved as well, and that's not quite the same thing as sales.
• 17:35
  Kellie Doust: So they're obviously very much looking at the bottom line, and it's always a delicate balance because they, you know, they're not creatives necessarily, certainly not the finance team, and they are holding us all to account so that we don't get too carried away with our enthusiasm.
• 17:57
  Kellie Doust: And, you know, it really makes a difference who's in that meeting, what the context is at the time.
• 18:06
  Kellie Doust: You could be, as an author, incredibly lucky to have pitched your book at a time when the, the publishing house is sort of seeking something in that space, but they don't feel that the space is too saturated or that they've had too many other proposals that are similar.
• 18:29
  Kellie Doust: Or you could be really unlucky, and it just so happens that in that era that you are pitching your book, there's lots of people in the zeitgeist doing the same thing.
• 18:39
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 18:40
  Kellie Doust: So every publisher's looking for something fresh.
• 18:42
  Kellie Doust: They need to love it before they take it to an acquisitions meeting.
• 18:46
  Kellie Doust: It's the first place that they start selling it, in effect, and then they'll spend the next two years of their life selling it- Mm if not more, to everybody that they talk to.
• 18:58
  Kellie Doust: So they need to feel passionate about it.
• 19:00
  Kellie Doust: They need to love it.
• 19:01
  Kellie Doust: There are, you know, there are a limited number of spaces on the list, and the list is highly curated, and it has to be that way because publishing doesn't exist without that curation and without the sales to back it up.
• 19:17
  Kellie Doust: So- It's, it's an exciting space to be in, to have these conversations and to have that power, and everyone really has an element of power in that space because they're all making the decision together.
• 19:31
  Kellie Doust: And even though as a publisher, you know, you, you do take so much of it on board and you adore your books and it hurts when they don't work, you also just live and learn that there have to be some tough decisions being made.
• 19:49
  Kellie Doust: And it, it wouldn't serve you or the author at all well to just forge on ahead and be pig-headed about wanting to publish a book if you're just not getting that support from the team.
• 20:02
  Kellie Doust: But I think, look, the most important people in that meeting, I feel, are your publisher and the sales director or the sales team, because that's the person who's the closest to the idea and is the visionary who is looking ahead at what how the market will perform.
• 20:22
  Kellie Doust: The sales team can only look at the current market and what has performed in the past, and they're there to ground you.
• 20:32
  Kellie Doust: They're also working at the coalface with buyers and, and booksellers.
• 20:36
  Kellie Doust: So they really need to ground you and need to bring you back to Earth when you're getting maybe a bit excited about things that might not come to pass.
• 20:46
  Kellie Doust: But I think, look, it's always that push/pull.
• 20:49
  Kellie Doust: It's a delicate balance.
• 20:50
  Kellie Doust: Um, but yeah, it You know, it, it A lot of luck is involved sometimes based on what else is out there at the time and what else is being pitched.
• 20:59
  Kellie Doust: And sometimes as well you might be lucky to have a book published sooner than a lot of books 'cause, you know, when I left in June, I was completely full up for 2027, and I even had a number of books already slated for the schedule in 2028.
• 21:18
  Kellie Doust: So But occasionally, look, the, the, the list that you've curated for the, you know, 12 to 24 months ahead is constantly shifting too, 'cause sometimes authors are running late, life gets in the way, things change.
• 21:32
  Kellie Doust: So, um, you could be incredibly lucky, have an idea, and it kinda gets slotted into that schedule sooner than you would have thought.
• 21:42
  Natasha Rai: And, and when you were at a firm, how many books were you acquiring in a year?
• 21:48
  Kellie Doust: Um, yeah, this is one which has confused because, uh, so I had come from MurdochBooks where I was meant to publish 12 to 15 books a year, and I was four days a week.
• 22:04
  Kellie Doust: And then I was meant to do 12 to f- 15 books a year as well at Affirm on my four days a week.
• 22:11
  Kellie Doust: Um, y- you know, towards the end of my time there, it was just me and Martin acquiring.
• 22:16
  Kellie Doust: I You know, in one year I published 25 books.
• 22:20
  Kellie Doust: It's a lot of books.
• 22:21
  Kellie Doust: Um, you don't get to work on every single one equally, and I know that can be really shocking, 'cause really when you think about it, it's only two weeks a book, and you take a, a month off of holiday a year.
• 22:33
  Kellie Doust: But bear in mind, we had a fantastic team of editors who are essentially commissioning editors and are essentially b- operating as publishers.
• 22:46
  Kellie Doust: So there were books that I knew I could pass on to my colleagues who would ably handle them.
• 22:52
  Kellie Doust: And while I was sitting at that very commercial pointy end where I was doing the sales conference and pitching the book here, there, and everywhere, and getting endorsements, and talking to book sellers and all that sort of thing, they were doing that essential work, and they were more than capable.
• 23:11
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 23:11
  Kellie Doust: I mean, I didn't come from the editorial side even though I've been an author.
• 23:15
  Kellie Doust: I came up through marketing and publicity.
• 23:17
  Kellie Doust: So actually I don't do line editing.
• 23:21
  Kellie Doust: I can, but it's a waste of my time.
• 23:23
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 23:24
  Kellie Doust: Um, and even now with Publishing Curious, I say to people, "Look, I'll give you a You know, I'll give you a really comprehensive structural edit, which will be top line notes, and I'll go into detail about the different chapters, but I'm not gonna do a line edit because I'm not a copy editor- Mm and I don't really want to be." Um, but we would have people in-house who came up through editorial who could do all of that line editing.
• 23:51
  Kellie Doust: So I think I mean, I've, I've touched on it a bit with some of the stuff I've been writing for Publishing Curious.
• 23:58
  Kellie Doust: But your publisher, your editor, they can mean very different things depending on the house that you're with.
• 24:04
  Kellie Doust: And- It really just depends on, uh, the level of involvement on each book.
• 24:12
  Kellie Doust: Um, and some books are easier to hand over to someone else, and some books, particularly your lead titles, you have to get in there and do that work.
• 24:21
  Kellie Doust: I mean, I worked with, um, Jane Tara, who I know you interviewed on the podcast, and she was, um, part of the debut group as well.
• 24:30
  Kellie Doust: And Jane and I, you know, we did a lot of work on her first novel, and then her second novel that she's writing, well, I'm, uh, you know, I'm sure she'll give you the background on it, but we, we just did so many, uh, you know, so many looks at different drafts and ways to go with the next step in her career.
• 24:50
  Kellie Doust: And some authors you do just have to do all that work with, um, because you know you're the best person to be doing it, if that makes sense.
• 25:00
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:00
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it does.
• 25:01
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 25:01
  Tina Strachan: Uh, very exciting to hear that Jane might have another book coming out soon.
• 25:04
  Tina Strachan: That's that's exciting.
• 25:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, but Kelly, so you did say that, you know, some books get a little bit more attention than others, uh, and you just touched on it briefly, but, uh, why...
• 25:16
  Tina Strachan: How do you decide which ones do get more attention, um, as in your work or publicity's, uh, input and, um, even when it comes to budget?
• 25:28
  Kellie Doust: That's actually not the decision of the publisher.
• 25:31
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 25:31
  Kellie Doust: The publisher will argue very strongly for that budget for every one of their books.
• 25:36
  Kellie Doust: But there are decisions that need to be made- Mm about where that money's going.
• 25:43
  Kellie Doust: And as much as I would argue, I was not in control of that, and very few publishers are, unless they're sort of publisher publishing directors.
• 25:54
  Kellie Doust: Um, so yeah, I did- I didn't get to decide that.
• 25:58
  Kellie Doust: That is really the job of the sales team and the marketing and publicity team.
• 26:04
  Kellie Doust: They, they are experts in their space, so they get to choose whether a book is more marketing led or m- more publicity led.
• 26:13
  Kellie Doust: I mean, as a publisher, you have an idea of that anyway, but some things are better for publicity, and you don't need to put as much marketing budget behind them.
• 26:23
  Kellie Doust: And some books are more indie led, so they're better for independent booksellers who are gonna hand sell that book and really get behind it.
• 26:31
  Kellie Doust: Some books are more focused on the DDS, on the discount department stores.
• 26:35
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 26:36
  Kellie Doust: Big W's the biggest retailer of books in the country, so a lot of publishers need to focus on getting their books into the DDS.
• 26:44
  Kellie Doust: But we all know that, you know, a lot of the great books that are being nominated for awards, for example, they're, they're indie books, and they're being mainly sold by indie booksellers.
• 26:57
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 26:57
  Natasha Rai: That's really interesting that the people who you e- earlier described as perhaps not ful- like, fully creative or not working creatively are the ones who decide the budget or how a book might go out into the world.
• 27:13
  Natasha Rai: So like, it, it can't just be raw, like, data, right?
• 27:16
  Natasha Rai: Like, it can't just be sales figures from up comparative titles, or is it as binary as that?
• 27:22
  Kellie Doust: No, it's not as binary as that.
• 27:24
  Kellie Doust: Okay.
• 27:24
  Kellie Doust: It definitely, um, is a whole range of factors.
• 27:28
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 27:29
  Kellie Doust: So And, and, and you know what?
• 27:32
  Kellie Doust: The writing itself is not as major as some of the other factors that are involved.
• 27:39
  Kellie Doust: So how good is that author for media and presenting themselves and for events?
• 27:45
  Kellie Doust: Um, you know, how connected are they?
• 27:48
  Kellie Doust: Are they You know, are they the kind of author who is gonna generate, um, you know, a lot of people coming to, along to their events, or are they q- just quieter and not necessarily the best front person for their book?
• 28:02
  Kellie Doust: So sometimes when you have that situation, you need to put more behind it because you know the author's not gonna be great at selling it necessarily.
• 28:11
  Kellie Doust: Um- But look, I wouldn't say that Everyone in the publishing house, you know, loves books, and they're all creative in their own way.
• 28:22
  Kellie Doust: May- I mean, maybe not finance, 'cause that's a just a financial department and those are financial decisions.
• 28:29
  Kellie Doust: But really, as far as everybody else goes, I would say, look, everybody in the industry has probably been in a situation at some other point in their career where they were offered more money to do something that was less creative- Mm-hmm more boring, and they have turned it down.
• 28:49
  Kellie Doust: And you know, we I, I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with people about that.
• 28:55
  Kellie Doust: I mean, I've A couple of times in my own career I've been offered twice my salary to, uh, work in corporate, and it was, it was just never something that I considered really doing, because I did a little bit of it when I lived in Hong Kong, and I didn't love it.
• 29:12
  Kellie Doust: And genuinely, when you're working in publishing, every day is different, every day is exciting.
• 29:19
  Kellie Doust: Even when it's bad, it's good, and you wake up looking forward to your day and pretty raring to go.
• 29:25
  Kellie Doust: And I don't know how many people that work in corporate environments get to say that.
• 29:29
  Kellie Doust: Mm-hmm.
• 29:31
  Tina Strachan: Sounds dreamy.
• 29:32
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 29:32
  Tina Strachan: I wanna go and get a job in publishing now.
• 29:39
  Speaker: the Book Deal podcast.
• 29:40
  Speaker: My name is Elizabeth Noel, and I'm the debut author of Beneath the Edelweiss, published by Little A and out the twentieth of October, twenty twenty-six.
• 29:49
  Speaker: It's a World War II era historical fiction novel set in the little-known Alpine region of Carinthia, and it details the area's centuries-old Alpine herbalism tradition.
• 30:02
  Speaker: Mitzi Hausler is an Alpine herbalist in training, and she comes of age during Austria's annexation to Nazi Germany.
• 30:10
  Speaker: The novel explores what it's like to be medically vulnerable or physically different during wartime and how people experiencing this struggle to find their place in a world that was increasingly turning away from them.
• 30:24
  Speaker: More broadly, the novel is about belonging, resistance, and ultimately, survival.
• 30:30
  Speaker: The story is inspired by my own experience of chronic illness and three women in my family history.
• 30:37
  Speaker: At a young age, my grandmother Elfriede was fostered into a Carinthian Alpine farm because her mother, Anna, was too sick to look after her.
• 30:47
  Speaker: Elfriede would watch the valley, waiting for her mother to return.
• 30:51
  Speaker: Mitzi, the farmer's sister, would encourage her outside to learn about the Alpine garden.
• 30:57
  Speaker: Anna never came back to collect Elfriede because Anna died in Klagenfurt Hospital in nineteen forty-four, where nurses killed patients as part of their daily duty under the Nazi regime.
• 31:09
  Speaker: I could not document that horror story, so instead, I asked Mitzi to tell me what happened through the metaphor of the Alpine garden and all the wisdom it has to offer.
• 31:21
  Speaker: This book has been a ten-year journey.
• 31:24
  Speaker: In writing Beneath the Edelweiss, I seek to remember, witness, and understand.
• 31:30
  Speaker: Ultimately, I hope the novel uplifts everyone who reads it.
• 31:39
  Tina Strachan: Can we just go back to the, deep discount stores and the BIG W being our biggest, bookseller in Australia, which a lot of, aspiring authors or, listeners may not realize that.
• 31:48
  Tina Strachan: That is the case now with BIG W, selling the most amount of books and, But they have quite specific, kinda guidelines about what they accept into their, onto their shelves, don't they?
• 31:59
  Tina Strachan: They're mostly commercial, aren't they?
• 32:01
  Kellie Doust: I mean, when I worked at a firm, I mean, Kieran was fantastic at getting books into the DDS that were what we would consider indie fiction.
• 32:11
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 32:12
  Kellie Doust: But they won't necessarily take them in large numbers, and we kind of have to stake our reputation on it.
• 32:19
  Kellie Doust: So if, if it doesn't sell, then you get high returns, and no one's really happy with that.
• 32:26
  Kellie Doust: It's not a great outcome.
• 32:27
  Kellie Doust: So you are better focusing on the right retailer for the right book.
• 32:33
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 32:34
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 32:34
  Tina Strachan: It's quite nuanced, isn't it?
• 32:36
  Tina Strachan: And I know lots of very successful and prolific authors who have actually never had their books in BIG W before.
• 32:42
  Tina Strachan: It doesn't mean that if you're not accepted in BIG W your sales aren't going to be as much and things like that.
• 32:48
  Tina Strachan: It's, you can still be, extremely successful and prolific and, get more, um, book deals even if your books weren't accepted into there.
• 32:57
  Kellie Doust: Definitely.
• 32:57
  Kellie Doust: And you've got to remember too that, uh, a lot of the rural areas and a lot of the stores across Australia, the independent booksellers have shut.
• 33:05
  Kellie Doust: They're not in all of those small towns.
• 33:07
  Kellie Doust: So there might only be a BIG W or a Kmart- Mm nearby, which is why it's the biggest retailer.
• 33:15
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 33:15
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 33:15
  Natasha Rai: So i- in your experience, Kelly, what actually sells books?
• 33:21
  Kellie Doust: Well, that's a big question.
• 33:22
  Kellie Doust: There are just There's just so many factors.
• 33:29
  Kellie Doust: Um, you need a really sharp pitch.
• 33:32
  Kellie Doust: What The most valuable thing I've ever done in my career on a number of occasions is accompany a salesperson on their pitches.
• 33:43
  Kellie Doust: So you genuinely see, even when you're with a small company, how many books they're pitching to a buyer at the same time, and it is total information overload.
• 33:57
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 33:59
  Kellie Doust: That pitch needs to be really sharp, and you'd be surprised how many books are sold on the strength of a, a, of a good two-line pitch with a hook.
• 34:09
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 34:10
  Kellie Doust: Because of course the buyers don't get to read all of those books.
• 34:13
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 34:14
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 34:14
  Kellie Doust: But they just wanna hear a really good elevator pitch, and they wanna know what the hook is.
• 34:23
  Kellie Doust: And they obviously wanna purchase books that they know are gonna sell to their customers.
• 34:28
  Kellie Doust: So they will get the message pretty quickly about what that book is.
• 34:34
  Kellie Doust: Now, really good salespeople won't necessarily even sell every book on the list to every account that they go to.
• 34:40
  Kellie Doust: Again, it's like I was saying, it's, it's knowing which book is right- Mm for which retailer.
• 34:45
  Kellie Doust: Um, but an author who is very engaged in the writing community is always helpful.
• 34:52
  Kellie Doust: So that does sell books because you get the support of other writers who all have social media platforms of their own, all have their own communities and their own readers.
• 35:02
  Kellie Doust: And I've always thought that endorsements are a great thing.
• 35:06
  Kellie Doust: Some of my colleagues don't agree.
• 35:08
  Kellie Doust: People have said before, "Oh, well you just ask all your friends and then they give you a great endorsement," which does happen.
• 35:14
  Kellie Doust: But, you know, I personally wouldn't put my name on something if I didn't feel happy recommending it.
• 35:20
  Kellie Doust: And as a reader over the years, I have certainly bought books on the strength of an endorsement.
• 35:25
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 35:26
  Kellie Doust: So that's very helpful, too.
• 35:28
  Kellie Doust: So really good pitches, really good blurbs, really good endorsements, really engaged writers.
• 35:35
  Kellie Doust: You can't these days, I don't think, just be in your writing cave and expect a book to do its thing without you getting behind it.
• 35:45
  Kellie Doust: Now, some people think that's really unfair that writers are expected to get out there and shill for sales, but look, life's a pitch.
• 35:54
  Kellie Doust: Everybody has to get out there and sell their work.
• 35:58
  Kellie Doust: It's, it just is the way of things.
• 36:01
  Kellie Doust: And I You know, you look at the volume of books that are being published now.
• 36:05
  Kellie Doust: When I was growing up as a reader, I had no concept of what a writer looked like, who they were.
• 36:12
  Kellie Doust: I didn't even Half the time I didn't even notice if they were male or female.
• 36:15
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 36:15
  Kellie Doust: I was just reading their books.
• 36:18
  Kellie Doust: It's very different now, but then publishing is a bigger industry, and there are more, there are more books out there than ever.
• 36:25
  Kellie Doust: So you need to cut through, and I don't think you do that in an inauthentic, I'm just selling, selling, selling way.
• 36:34
  Kellie Doust: You have to be offering real value to people.
• 36:36
  Kellie Doust: So speak to people about things that they care about.
• 36:39
  Kellie Doust: Write about things that people care about.
• 36:41
  Kellie Doust: And yeah, engage with readers, engage with other writers, engage with booksellers.
• 36:47
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 36:47
  Tina Strachan: And what, what is good sales, Kelly?
• 36:51
  Tina Strachan: Like, what does that even mean?
• 36:53
  Kellie Doust: You mean the figure?
• 36:54
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 36:55
  Tina Strachan: If- Yeah uh, we People always ask what your sales are like, and you always wanna know what your sales are like.
• 37:00
  Tina Strachan: And but what, what even, what even does that mean?
• 37:02
  Tina Strachan: And, and as an example, what would that be?
• 37:06
  Kellie Doust: So quite a few years ago, anything Well, when I started publishing actually, only, like, nine years ago now, um, 10 thou- 10,000 copies was considered a bestseller.
• 37:18
  Kellie Doust: 20 to 30, that was properly bestseller, and anything over that, and, and those are sort of few and far between.
• 37:27
  Kellie Doust: You know, that was, that was doing really, really well.
• 37:31
  Kellie Doust: Those were the, the ano- the anomalies.
• 37:33
  Kellie Doust: Now, uh, you know, a publishing director remarked to me not that long ago, "5,000's the new 10,000." Mm.
• 37:43
  Kellie Doust: So- Oh thi- things have really changed- Yeah in a fairly short space of time.
• 37:49
  Kellie Doust: I personally think the biggest issue affecting our market at the moment is the algorithms with regards to, um- BookTok and, uh, online talking about books.
• 38:05
  Kellie Doust: Because I think that what's happening is, um, same as in the music industry, same as with film and television, we're not necessarily able to protect our local authors.
• 38:16
  Kellie Doust: And so people are getting fed a lot of content, particularly from the US, also the UK, but mainly from the US, because the US is a much bigger market.
• 38:27
  Kellie Doust: And it does change buyer behavior.
• 38:31
  Kellie Doust: People are, people are buying books from overseas authors.
• 38:34
  Kellie Doust: And not to say I mean, I read a lot of books from overseas authors myself, but you know, I really balance that probably 50/50 with Australian authors, I would say.
• 38:44
  Kellie Doust: And I think that Australian authors are maybe not getting as much of a look in because those algorithms are really favoring US authors right now.
• 38:53
  Kellie Doust: Um, and I think similar to the u- you know, ugly issue that has reared its head time and time again about parallel importation, um, in our country and, and people like Richard Flanagan and Tim Winton talking, um, about that with the government and it hand-in-hand with publishers.
• 39:15
  Kellie Doust: I think we need to start protecting our industry more, and we need to be really proactive about it, and we need to be lobbying government, we need to be working hand-in-hand with them to try and support our industry more.
• 39:30
  Kellie Doust: 'Cause we're not putting enough money behind it.
• 39:33
  Kellie Doust: So if we're not gonna do that, then we need to try and work against big tech and the way that it's working against our industry.
• 39:42
  Tina Strachan: Can you explain parallel importation a little bit more?
• 39:44
  Kellie Doust: It's been an issue the whole time I've been in publishing, for decades now.
• 39:49
  Kellie Doust: Okay.
• 39:49
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 39:49
  Kellie Doust: Um, and it's something that frequently comes up.
• 39:52
  Kellie Doust: So you know, it's like a free market issue.
• 39:55
  Kellie Doust: People will say, "Well Booksellers will say, "Well, why can't I import books from overseas that might be cheaper for me to buy f- from these overseas authors or from a major from a multinational?" Um, now the local publishing industry in Australia is very dependent upon the success of those multinationals' international publishing lists.
• 40:19
  Kellie Doust: It means that they can continue to support the Australian ecosystem, um, because they have money coming in that is sort of money for jam, really.
• 40:30
  Kellie Doust: Like, they're free kicks from overseas.
• 40:32
  Kellie Doust: You know, if you've got, um, you know, like a Stephen King or a Patricia Cornwell or any of those, like, really big- Mm Barbara Kingsolver, any of these big overseas authors, um, those book sales should, in theory, be funneling money into the local publishing house here so that they can support local writing.
• 40:53
  Kellie Doust: But if you had the situation where buyers were buying all their books from overseas, um, then that It would kill our industry dead.
• 41:05
  Natasha Rai: Oh, yeah.
• 41:07
  Natasha Rai: That sucks.
• 41:09
  Natasha Rai: Sorry, I just Yeah.
• 41:10
  Tina Strachan: Kelly, can you do a Substack on- Yeah everything that we need to do to lobby the government and to what we can do, please, and just list it all out for us, and we'll check it out and get onto it.
• 41:20
  Kellie Doust: I am working on it.
• 41:21
  Kellie Doust: Um- Thank you believe me.
• 41:22
  Kellie Doust: I, I'm also working on I have heard that, um, the government is currently drafting legislation, um, that seems to be allowing big tech to, uh, sidestep some of the stuff that we're doing with regards to AI and protecting creators' rights, and they're not inviting people from the industry in to advocate.
• 41:49
  Kellie Doust: Um, so I think we all need to probably be writing to our local MPs and making our voices heard.
• 41:55
  Kellie Doust: I think it's, again, another This It's, it's big tech, right?
• 41:59
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 41:59
  Kellie Doust: It's-
• 42:00
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 42:01
  Kellie Doust: There are benefits- It's really scary but it's causing so many issues.
• 42:04
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 42:04
  Tina Strachan: It's really scary, isn't it?
• 42:06
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 42:07
  Tina Strachan: Uh, yes, that would be really good if you could, and we will share it on the pod when you do get around to doing that, and then give us a little to-do list, Kelly, and we'll all go and- Exactly we'll go and lobby.
• 42:15
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 42:15
  Tina Strachan: 'Cause it's real- it is really scary, and, um, can we quickly touch on the whole AI thing bec- you just mentioned it then, um, and we notice it a lot more with publishers talking about it and including it in things like when you submit.
• 42:28
  Tina Strachan: Uh, now sometimes you have to click a little button or say that, "Yes, I definitely have not used AI at any part of it." How has, how have you seen that change, you know, the submissions process or the acquisitions process or the books, uh, that are being submitted at the moment?
• 42:46
  Kellie Doust: Well, I started noticing it, I mean, not long after ChatGPT was introduced, I started noticing things coming in, um, that were definitely AI generated.
• 42:56
  Kellie Doust: And, you know, you might not be aware of this, but publishing houses are encouraging the use of AI with their staff to, you know, make them more efficient.
• 43:07
  Kellie Doust: So And you know, people are running things through checks to make sure that they're not plagiarized, to make sure that they're not AI generated.
• 43:14
  Kellie Doust: So the publishing houses are all creating these sort of closed loop AI, um, systems, whether it's ChatGPT or Anthropic or, um, Co- what's the other one?
• 43:29
  Kellie Doust: Copilot.
• 43:29
  Kellie Doust: Um, there's I mean, there's lots of different models.
• 43:32
  Kellie Doust: Um, Gemini.
• 43:33
  Kellie Doust: And they're using those in a closed loop capacity so as not to be training the larger model, but they're using it within the publishing house.
• 43:43
  Kellie Doust: And they're also getting staff to use it just to create efficiencies like, you know, pulling together contracts and, um, writing emails and things like that.
• 43:52
  Kellie Doust: But I, yeah, I do worry about what that does to a new generation of people coming in who don't really know how to compose an email on their own, for example.
• 44:06
  Kellie Doust: I mean, it, it's It is concerning.
• 44:09
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 44:09
  Kellie Doust: And I did see some really funky things.
• 44:12
  Kellie Doust: I mean, you know, I saw one manuscript that came in and it still had all the prompts in it, and I couldn't even understand how the author was able to do that.
• 44:21
  Kellie Doust: I've seen stuff come from agents that's got prompts at the end of the pitch.
• 44:28
  Kellie Doust: And I've seen, um- Oh, no seen some of the ideas themselves that are coming in are clearly A- AI generated.
• 44:34
  Kellie Doust: They're not good ideas.
• 44:35
  Kellie Doust: Oh.
• 44:35
  Kellie Doust: They're not publishable books.
• 44:37
  Natasha Rai: Yuck.
• 44:37
  Kellie Doust: But, you know, not everyone's created equal, and you, you know, you soon start to get the measure of, of, of people when that, that starts happening.
• 44:47
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 44:48
  Natasha Rai: Do, do you foresee a time where AI might be used by publishing houses for editorial?
• 44:56
  Kellie Doust: Uh, how so?
• 44:57
  Kellie Doust: Because it's being used in terms of plagiarism checking and in terms of, um, whether AI use was involved
• 45:05
  Natasha Rai: So like for, for example, a copy edit or a line edit because, you know, like do you foresee that?
• 45:12
  Kellie Doust: Well, I spoke to an editor recently who's, who is granted working for a, um, like a, a different sort of publisher, a publisher where people are paying to have their books published.
• 45:24
  Kellie Doust: But they're getting in manuscripts from a lot of people that are, are not writers, they're not traditional writers, and sometimes they come in in a real state where there's no grammar or punctuation.
• 45:35
  Kellie Doust: Uh, you know, there's no even sentences.
• 45:39
  Kellie Doust: Mm-hmm.
• 45:39
  Kellie Doust: So they're put- feeding it through AI to help make it more manageable.
• 45:44
  Kellie Doust: I don't necessarily have a problem with something, someone using it to check, um, i- in that closed loop capacity.
• 45:53
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 45:53
  Kellie Doust: Someone using it to check for typos and for grammar and punctuation.
• 45:56
  Kellie Doust: But yeah, I mean, I am just really concerned about how we're training the bigger models- Mm You know, we've had these situations recently where it seems, and I've, I've noticed it really All the big recent literary scandals with regards to AI, they're writers of color, um, who are writing.
• 46:20
  Kellie Doust: So Jerry Follard and, um, the recent Haitian writer who, uh, had won a French award for his writing has been accused of using AI.
• 46:32
  Kellie Doust: And then there's, um, Mia Ballard, the author of Shy Girl, who I think is a woman of color, and she's certainly a young woman.
• 46:42
  Kellie Doust: And I It just I find, I find it really interesting because th- th- those models are really flawed as well.
• 46:50
  Kellie Doust: I've got a daughter at high school, and I am really aware of the fact that her and her friends are generating work on their own.
• 46:57
  Kellie Doust: I've been involved enough in some of that work to see that it is self-generated, and then it's being flagged as having AI use.
• 47:05
  Kellie Doust: So Jerry Follard in a recent essay said, "Are we gonna get into the situation where we have to introduce errors into our text so that people don't accuse us of using AI?" Mm.
• 47:17
  Kellie Doust: And it's just, it's such a can of worms.
• 47:21
  Tina Strachan: It's hard to know what to do, isn't it, to protect yourself and You know, because it is just everywhere and it's You know, I think I've spoken about it before on the pod.
• 47:28
  Tina Strachan: I just got a new, um, MacBook, and it feel it's all, it's in it.
• 47:32
  Tina Strachan: I know that it's in it And it's, you know, coming up in all my programs just about that I open.
• 47:36
  Tina Strachan: And I, you know, downloaded the new Scrivener recently, and it kept wondering why it was highlighting sentences.
• 47:41
  Tina Strachan: And then I clicked on it, and it, you know, asked me if it, if I wanted it to write it in a more like, you know, friendlier tone or something like that.
• 47:48
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, Grammarly's been around for ages, and people have had that on their computers.
• 47:52
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, my workplace put Copilot on all our computers.
• 47:55
  Tina Strachan: It was not a choice.
• 47:56
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, yeah, it's like you just can't escape from it.
• 48:00
  Tina Strachan: And I guess, do you just You know, you just try and stay away from it as much as possible and, I don't know, save all your documents so people can go back and see what you've done?
• 48:10
  Tina Strachan: It's, it's, um, it's hard to know what to do 'cause you just don't know what the future's gonna hold.
• 48:16
  Kellie Doust: I think the reality is that loads of people are trying to use it to generate fiction at the moment, and my, um, advice would be don't go near that.
• 48:25
  Kellie Doust: But I don't see anything wrong...
• 48:27
  Kellie Doust: I'm trying to be really balanced here because- Mm we've gotta be realistic as well.
• 48:31
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 48:32
  Kellie Doust: I, I, I don't see anything wrong with maybe using it in the very nascent stages of planning a book, getting it to help you when you've got an idea for a book to, to get it to maybe help you map out, like, the beats in a story so that you've got your sort of story arc and your chapter outline, especially if you're a writer that doesn't, hasn't studied creative writing, and there's lots of people like that out there.
• 48:58
  Kellie Doust: And I don't wanna be elitist and say those people can't get help that way.
• 49:03
  Kellie Doust: Um, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but, you know, between, I think it was 2024 and 2025, there were a million more, um, books uploaded to Amazon, and it's not 'cause there's a million more writers out there.
• 49:16
  Kellie Doust: It's a million more in that period where AI has taken off.
• 49:20
  Kellie Doust: So it's people generating manuscripts with AI.
• 49:24
  Kellie Doust: So yeah, I definitely wouldn't be using it to write a manuscript, but I think that there are efficiencies to be had.
• 49:31
  Kellie Doust: It annoys me that you can't even go to Google now without it-
• 49:35
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 49:35
  Kellie Doust: coming up with, with your, um, with, by using AI, because we know how much data it's using.
• 49:44
  Kellie Doust: We know that it's causing issues with, um, electricity supply, with water.
• 49:50
  Kellie Doust: We've got all these data centers cropping up in areas.
• 49:53
  Kellie Doust: Anyway, I'm so sorry.
• 49:54
  Kellie Doust: I feel like every conversation about writing that I'm having recently is devolving into this AI discussion.
• 50:01
  Natasha Rai: But I think it's just, just really relevant and important because it, it's kind of moving so fast, and it feels like to me also that there's a creep.
• 50:10
  Natasha Rai: Like, okay, so this is okay, but then that's not.
• 50:13
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 50:13
  Natasha Rai: But then maybe that's okay, and then...
• 50:14
  Natasha Rai: And the goalpost just keeps shifting.
• 50:16
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 50:17
  Natasha Rai: Maybe it'll just go back to, um, sales of notebooks will soar 'cause people will start- handwriting like, like, you know, writers used to.
• 50:26
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 50:26
  Tina Strachan: Hopefully people, yeah, w- I, I will just be yearning for that sort of, you know, old school contact and...
• 50:33
  Tina Strachan: interestingly, I was looking at, um, Amazon Books this morning because I find that really useful when I'm looking for a comp title because you can kinda see...
• 50:41
  Tina Strachan: It just shows you everything, and sometimes it gives you a couple of pages that you can, you know, look at to be like, "Is that a good comparative title?" And of course, I was looking for, um, books that had, you know, wildlife and animals in it, 'cause that, they, they always feature in most of my books.
• 50:54
  Tina Strachan: And, um, I was...
• 50:57
  Tina Strachan: So I was looking...
• 50:57
  Tina Strachan: It was, like, Amazon Books, kids' books, animals or zoos or something like that, and they show you the top 50.
• 51:04
  Tina Strachan: And I, I would say probably 80% in that top 50, the position, certainly the number one position for today was 100% AI-generated piece of crap.
• 51:16
  Tina Strachan: And all the t- even just...
• 51:18
  Tina Strachan: I mean, I didn't really click on many of them, but, you know, you can just see even...
• 51:22
  Tina Strachan: So maybe it was written by a human, some of the other books, but their cover pages certainly were not.
• 51:27
  Tina Strachan: They were...
• 51:27
  Tina Strachan: And they, it wasn't even n- they weren't even trying to disguise the fact that it was that classic ChatGPT just junk, like, cover page that they do.
• 51:36
  Tina Strachan: Um, and yeah, and it was all just...
• 51:40
  Tina Strachan: And I was like how...
• 51:41
  Tina Strachan: This is so disappointing for all the few books scattered in there that were clearly, you know, um, done by, you know, real people with real artists and it's, um, yeah, it was really, yeah, disheartening to see.
• 51:55
  Kellie Doust: I haven't even thought about it in terms of children's books- Mm.
• 51:58
  Kellie Doust: Mm because I can imagine that's a whole new area of, um- AI generation, um, because I It always makes me laugh.
• 52:10
  Kellie Doust: I, I really don't understand kids' books.
• 52:12
  Kellie Doust: I mean, I have a child, I have bought lots of kids' books, I was a child.
• 52:16
  Kellie Doust: I really don't know what sells in that area.
• 52:19
  Kellie Doust: I know my own area, but I would have authors come to me with ideas all the time, and I think that's a great idea, and I'd pass it on to my colleagues in the kids' division, and they'd be like, "No, that wouldn't work for X, Y, Z," or, "We did that," or, "We're doing that," or Um, and then other times I would think, "That's not a great idea," and I'd pass it on and they'd say, "That's fantastic.
• 52:41
  Kellie Doust: We love it.
• 52:41
  Kellie Doust: We're gonna run with that." So- Mm-hmm kids is a completely different area, but it seems to me that a lot of people think they can write a kids' book, and- Mm they think it's gonna be easy, and they don't realize that- Yeah it takes incredible skill-
• 52:58
  Tina Strachan: Mm
• 52:58
  Kellie Doust: and, um, usually a lot of knowledge about what kids are reading.
• 53:03
  Kellie Doust: So-
• 53:04
  Tina Strachan: Yeah
• 53:04
  Kellie Doust: so, so many kids' authors are teachers and educators.
• 53:09
  Natasha Rai: So Kelly, given what you know and given all your experience, as of today, would you ever return to publishing?
• 53:18
  Kellie Doust: Never say never.
• 53:19
  Kellie Doust: I am enjoying what I'm doing.
• 53:22
  Kellie Doust: I Part of the reason I set this up is because right now at this point in the industry, I don't see a place for myself in a traditional publishing house right now.
• 53:33
  Kellie Doust: But look, I think market conditions will change.
• 53:38
  Kellie Doust: Change is the only constant, and who knows?
• 53:43
  Kellie Doust: But I just I'm really enjoying working in author advocacy.
• 53:49
  Kellie Doust: Um, I've started working at the Australian Society of Authors, um, part-time, so I'm both there and I'm working on my own business and on the Substack.
• 54:00
  Kellie Doust: So I That feels like the right place for me to be right now.
• 54:05
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 54:05
  Kellie Doust: Yeah.
• 54:06
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 54:06
  Tina Strachan: I like that.
• 54:07
  Tina Strachan: It does.
• 54:08
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 54:08
  Tina Strachan: Um, so one quick question then before we go, assuming this is gonna be our last question, Tash.
• 54:13
  Natasha Rai: Yep.
• 54:14
  Tina Strachan: What Just with all your clients and everybody that you've been speaking to lately through Publishing Curious, what is the one big tip or your best tip that you could give aspiring authors at the moment?
• 54:30
  Kellie Doust: The biggest advice that I've been giving is to be part of the writing community, which is Which we've already touched on.
• 54:37
  Kellie Doust: But it's surprising to me how many people want to be a writer but seem to know very little about how to connect with readers or the community.
• 54:48
  Kellie Doust: They have an idea for a book, but they don't understand who their reader is, not really.
• 54:54
  Kellie Doust: And so that's hugely important.
• 54:58
  Kellie Doust: Um, hugely important as well is not I know people get really excited when they've got an idea, but not e- not going to the market too quickly.
• 55:08
  Kellie Doust: You only really get one chance for a first impression.
• 55:13
  Kellie Doust: You don't always only get one shot, but it might be just one shot, and you can only make that first impression once.
• 55:20
  Kellie Doust: So make sure that the manuscript is absolutely the best it can be or your idea's the best it can be before you take it to a publisher.
• 55:28
  Kellie Doust: If you're writing fiction, you need a full manuscript, and ideally that is not your very first draft.
• 55:34
  Kellie Doust: You've finished the final page and then you're sending it off to agents or publishers You have done a second or a third or even fourth draft, um, that you've been working on either with people you trust or with a professional, um, to get a little bit of feedback, a manuscript assessment or even a structural edit.
• 55:53
  Kellie Doust: I don't necessarily think everyone has to go do that before they land with a publishing house, but particularly if you're a debut writer, it's very valuable.
• 56:01
  Kellie Doust: Um, another really important piece of advice I give people is, um, yeah, just keep an eye on who's publishing what, who's representing who.
• 56:12
  Kellie Doust: It's actually really easy information to find.
• 56:15
  Kellie Doust: I am obsessed with flicking to the acknowledgement section of books as soon as I pick them up Yep.
• 56:21
  Kellie Doust: I always wanna know who's worked on them and who, who the agent is, who the publisher is, um, who the editor was.
• 56:29
  Kellie Doust: I have, over the years, built my own network through looking in acknowledgement sections and reaching out to those people.
• 56:36
  Kellie Doust: So it isn't tricky stuff to do.
• 56:39
  Kellie Doust: You just got to do a bit of digging.
• 56:40
  Kellie Doust: You got to do your research.
• 56:42
  Kellie Doust: So that would That- that's the advice I keep giving over and over again.
• 56:46
  Kellie Doust: I think that when you're sitting outside the process it often seems like there are all these pieces in place to put together a bestseller.
• 56:58
  Kellie Doust: But what I would say is nobody in the industry knows how to create a bestseller.
• 57:03
  Kellie Doust: If they did, we would be churning them out left, right, and center.
• 57:10
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 57:11
  Kellie Doust: Nobody knows what the formula is.
• 57:14
  Kellie Doust: Publishers are gamblers.
• 57:16
  Kellie Doust: They are taking risks all the time, and they- they're often calculated risks, but they can- nobody can say with any certainty that something is going to work.
• 57:29
  Kellie Doust: Mm.
• 57:30
  Kellie Doust: So we are all kind of flying blind in a way because books take a very long time to produce.
• 57:38
  Kellie Doust: They're a very long time from when they're acquired to when they actually hit shelves, and so much can change in that time.
• 57:44
  Kellie Doust: The environment can change so much.
• 57:47
  Kellie Doust: Um, the world can change so much in that time, and the economy, and readers tastes.
• 57:54
  Kellie Doust: And you might just be really unlucky and bring something out that is gonna be competing with something else that's just hit that's quite similar.
• 58:01
  Kellie Doust: So I would say just keep writing and feel confident that what you're doing h- will find its place in the world, and don't write to trends because you can't.
• 58:15
  Kellie Doust: It just doesn't work.
• 58:16
  Kellie Doust: I've tried.
• 58:17
  Kellie Doust: It doesn't work.
• 58:18
  Kellie Doust: Nope.
• 58:21
  Tina Strachan: That's great advice.
• 58:21
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, exactly.
• 58:22
  Tina Strachan: Very good advice.
• 58:23
  Tina Strachan: Thank you.
• 58:24
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
• 58:30
  Tina Strachan: We're able to bring you these weekly writerly chats because of our amazing patrons.
• 58:35
  Tina Strachan: Join the TPD family by becoming a member of our Patreon community@patreon.com slash the book deal podcast.
• 58:44
  Tina Strachan: And if you love the pod, please give us a rating or review.
• 58:47
  Tina Strachan: And don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.