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hashimoto's 101 · From 9 to Mom

• Catie: Welcome back to From Nine to Mom. Danielle: Where we discuss balancing the nine to five hustle with the beautiful chaos that we call motherhood. And today I am super excited. We have an amazing guest. Ina Toppler is a board-certified clinical nutritionist, a leading Hashimoto's and thyroid expert, and the host of the Thyroid Mystery Solved podcast, which is now in its seventh season. That's insane. Congrats. her work has been featured in the New York Times, L in Fitness, and her all-in-one thyroid support supplement, Thyro Love, and her programs have helped. Thousands of people get to the root of their thyroid issues. She's also a working mom of two. So she definitely understands the complexities of working motherhood. And her message is simple: 19 million Americans have Hashimoto's and most don't know it. But the answers are out there and it is never too late to start looking in the right place. I have been dying to have a thyroid expert on, especially someone who talks about Hashimoto's and all the hidden things. So Ina, thank you so much for coming on today. We're so excited to have you here. Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: my gosh, of course. I'm so excited to connect. Catie: Yes, Danielle's been like foaming all week, like trying to be like, I have so many things, I'm gonna go off script. So I'm sure she's gonna get into that. But we like to start every episode. We need to know how old your kids are and what is causing chaos in your house right now. Danielle: And Inna Topiler CNS MS: Well, my kids are five and nine. Also, fun fact my kids were born on the same day, four years apart. That was not planned, just happened that way. And so they have the same birthday, which is cool and not cool at the same time. I think as they get older, you know, I think when they're young, they don't care so much. They think it's cool. As they get older, I think it's going to shift. But we do separate parties for them. So they they each get theirs. But Catie: That's crazy. Danielle: Yeah, how do they feel about it? Inna Topiler CNS MS: What's causing chaos? How much time do we have for this? Because you know, we try to live the lifestyle and be conscious about it and do all the things. I mean, I I don't know about you guys, but I always say, I'm never gonna do this because my mom did this to me and I'm never gonna do this. And then you literally catch yourself saying the same thing and it's like, my gosh, I did not just do it. Yeah. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Right. As long as you recognize it, it's I think it's okay. 'Cause if you're like, I just heard my mom say like I can hear it and if you recognize it's good. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yeah, I try. my son, my nine year old, he's autistic. Now, because we do so many different things from a holistic perspective and really look at nutrition and lifestyle and supplements and all the things, he's very high functioning, which is great. He also has something called pandas. I don't know if you guys are familiar with that or if you've talked about that on the show, but it stands for pediatric acute neurosci neuropsychiatric disorder affected by streps. So pandas is the the algorithm for my gosh, algorithm. The algorithm is in my head today. It's the short of it. and then there's something called pans, which is like more of a generic. So it's actually quite common, but not something that a lot of people know about. But it's essentially where when kids get strep, it creates inflammation in their brain. And then it literally makes them not themselves. So they become combative, they have tantrums, their personality changes. It Catie: It's on all of our brains constantly. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Can create OCD. It's like a whole thing. I mean, we could do a whole episode on that. But it's actually very scary. Mm-hmm. And but what's interesting too is that being in the field, we learned about it. I mean, as a thyroid expert, I went to school and I learned everything first, you know, and then kind of niched and specialized more in the thyroid. But when you think about pandas, it's one of those things where you think, it happens to someone else. Danielle: We might have to 'cause I've heard so much about it. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Right. Like it happens, it's very rare. It happens to the people over there, you know. Like that can never happen to me. Like, it's like, excuse me, do you know who I am? Kind of thing. Like, I do all the things, but it really can happen to anyone. And you know, we could talk about that as we get into Hashimoto's that the autoimmunity in the mom can actually predispose our children to a lot of things that have these autoimmune nuances to them. So It's one of those things where we're constantly managing it and we're doing all the things for it, but just kind of going back to your question about chaos. Sometimes you just don't know what you're going to get, you know, with a child who's neurodivergent. And it's so amazing because there's so many facets that are like, my gosh, like he thinks in this really cool way, you know, but sometimes he'll fly off the handle. And my daughter, who's five, who's very neurotypical, and raising a child who's neurodivergent and a child who's neurotypical, it's just a very interesting dynamic. of how they interact and just how the house is. So yeah, there's there's always something. Catie: We are gonna have to dive into that at some point 'cause I definitely wanna learn more about that. But we can't let Danielle go without l all her questions with thyroid and everything. my gosh. You just mentioned that and now I my brain's trying not to spiral because we are coming we just had strep last week in this house and my older one had it and he's been like so chaotic since I mean it's been like five days, but like, you know. Danielle: Well now my brain's moving in a million different directions. But yes, we'll get back to we'll get back to this, but Inna Topiler CNS MS: I'm sorry. Catie: Every mom spirals about everything, you know, but it would be a good conversation. Okay. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yeah. Well, as long as it's treated, that's the thing. As long as it's treated. It it's just often that with a lot of these kids, they don't present with strep symptoms. So people don't know they have strep. So they may have a stomachache, but not a sore throat. They'll go to the doctor. Danielle: So this is so funny because Katie and I spent the morning. The reason my son is home, the last two mornings on the way to camp, he's gotten sick in the car. And he does get car sick, but it's not far. I don't think that's what it is. I just found out today that the people we were on vacation with last week had strep and they didn't they she was medicated, but I don't know how long she had it before we got there. And I'm like, Katie, I feel like he might have strep. Like, I feel like I need to go get him tested for strep. So it's so funny that this is happening because the chaos in my house right now. Catie: And that's Danielle: could be caused by that in Katie the Chaos in your house last week was caused by that. So Catie: It was that and he didn't have a sore throat, nothing. He had a fever was the only thing and my kids typically don't get fevers with like most you know that they're really sick and we gotta go to the pediatrician if one of them spikes a fever. And I went as soon as he had the fever for more than twenty-four hours, we're going, let's go. They checked did a strep test, had antibiotics within forty-eight hours. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yeah. That that's amazing. And it's so important to test. And you I always tell people you want to do a rapid and you also want to make sure that they sent out for a culture because the rapid, depending on how long they've had it, may not always be accurate and the culture is always gonna show more. So always try to do both. Danielle: Listen, everybody here is listening for thyroid and Hashimoto's tips, but you just got bonus tips from Ina already. So I love this. So thank you. But I think your journey is so interesting. But before we get into the actual journey that got you here, can we start by like you explaining exactly what Hashimoto's is and a little bit about what it is so people can start from a baseline if they don't know about it? Catie: These are great tips, everyone. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Huh. Catie: Bonus Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yes, I would love to. So Hashimoto's is an autoimmune disease where your immune system and your body actually think for various reasons, which we'll get into, that your thyroid is not your friend. And it starts to attack it. Because with autoimmunity, whether you have Hashimoto's or lupus or arthritis or MS, right? It's not the fault of the organ that's being attacked. Right. It's not your joints' fault it's being attacked. It's not your thyroid's fault it's being attacked. It's the immune system that got confused. And that confusion is creating this attack because literally the immune system is trying to save you, thinks that your thyroid is this virus, right? Or is this some kind of foreign thing that does not belong? Now, what's very interesting, and people need to know with Hashimoto's is that when your body attacks your thyroid, eventually that attack is going to slow down the thyroid. Thyroid starts to work less optimally and less efficiently, and then it becomes hypo, right? Or slow thyroid, which is hypothyroidism. Now, hypothyroidism is extremely common. One in three women have hypothyroidism or a slow thyroid. And what usually happens is when people go to their doctor, whether it's their primary or maybe their gynecologist. They'll test them for hypothyroidism, but they usually do a very basic test. And we'll talk about that as we go on as well. Now, with this basic test, they'll say, yes, you do have hypothyroidism, or no, you don't. And in a lot of situations, hypothyroidism takes a little bit to kind of kick in, right? So sometimes these initial tests don't show it. and in some cases, if it's already there, it will. The problem is that 85 to 90 percent of people who have hypothyroidism, right, or slow thyroid. The actual cause of that is Hashimoto's. But do you think a lot of traditional doctors test for Hashimoto's? No. So what happens is, and I hear this over and over a day in my practice over the last 21 years, people will tell me, I've had hypothyroidism for 20 years, but I just found out I had Hashimoto's last year. Because Danielle: That's crazy. Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: I was never tested. And because I listened to you and I've heard some of the things you talk about, I requested this test for Hashimoto's, which is essentially testing for antibodies your body makes against your thyroid. And that's how I know. But here's the thing because Hashimoto's is typically the root of it, right? If most people don't test for Hashimoto's, what they're doing is they're supporting the thyroid. Now that's good, right? If your thyroid is not making enough hormones, we need to give ourselves, right? Our doctor needs to give us thyroid hormone. That's important. Important. But if the thyroid is continuously being destroyed by the immune system and you don't do anything to address that confused immune system, well, what's going to happen? Well, you give yourself, or your doctor, I should say, gives you thyroid hormone, right? So your thyroid is kind of say normally it's here, right? Your thyroid goes down. So then you take thyroid hormone and goes back up. But then on this side, you have the immune system that's like bad, right? Thyroid goes down. Thyroid hormone brings it The immune system is like bad, right? Thyroid goes down. Catie: Yeah. Danielle: It's a cycle. Inna Topiler CNS MS: So then with every year, people say, you're on medicine, but you know what? It's not enough. Let's raise it. Cause he keeps destroying it. let's raise it. Right. So one year they're maybe on 50 micrograms of medicine and there's a few different thyroid medicines out there, then maybe they're on 75, then 100, then 125, and so on. Right. And that destruction isn't contained. And so supporting the thyroid is just half of the answer. You want to support both the immune system. and the thyroid. And that's really, really important for people to know and understand because unfortunately, depending on the provider that you go to, they may not look at it from that perspective. Danielle: Could some hypothyroidism be prevented if you got diagnosed with Hashimoto's earlier then? Wow. Inna Topiler CNS MS: 100%. 100%. Yeah. So 85 to 90% of hypothyroid cases are because of Hashimoto's. Now the other 15%, that could be genetic, that could be sometimes exposure to radiation. There could be others, it could be damage to the thyroid, could be nodules. So those cases, I mean, of course, they could still maybe prevent it depending on what that actual culprit is of that. But with Hashimoto's, if you test for it and if you get because what happens is Hashimoto's comes first. Then comes the hypothyroidism, right? Now, it could take several years for Hashimoto's to be kind of in the making, probably even more than several years. I mean, it takes eight years sometimes for the antibodies to show up from when the process starts. But that process can start years before that, right? If we think about the type of foods that we eat, if we think about the environment, our stress, like all of the different things that can cause that immune confusion. So, but that comes first. And then once the immune stop the immune process starts, right, you then make antibodies to your thyroid. And then the thyroid destruction is gonna take, you know, it's gonna depend on the person, right? It could take a year for some people, it could take 10 years for someone else. So if you know that there's this autoimmune process, there's so many things you can do, you can stop the destruction. And also, though, and I I wanna make sure people understand that it's never too late. I really truly believe that that. Usually, even if you've had Hashimoto's for a while, your thyroid is not a hundred percent destroyed, typically. So let's say we found out later, right? I don't want people to think, well, too late for me, but no, you can stop the destruction now or slow it down to save the rest of the thyroid as well. Danielle: And I think that that transitions really well into where you're saying it's never too late. You were working on Wall Street, right? When this whole journey started. Can you tell us because you got diagnosed, but can you tell us the journey like of your life and how you got to being this well educated about this topic? Because this was not your original plan. Inna Topiler CNS MS: It was not, no. So I actually grew up in Lithuania and I moved here with my family when I was 10. And interestingly, my grandmother was a doctor in Lithuania. And that's not very common. I mean, for women to be doctors back then, but especially there, it just wasn't a thing. But, you know, she was a cardiologist actually, and she was the head of the cardiology department in the hospital. And so we played doctor a lot. And, you know, it was one of those things that like, Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: I was always going to be a doctor because grandma's a doctor, and then it skipped a generation, and it was like, you're gonna be our doctor. And interestingly, you know, when I was going when we moved to America, it was a very different lifestyle. I mean, in Lithuania, we like grew our food and we ate like we got milk from cows and like eggs from chickens. You know, people are starting to do that more now, but when I moved here in 1989, that was not the case. It was actually interesting because we got here. Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: And we discovered that you can have potatoes in a box, like from a mix. You remember the mashed potatoes in the you know, and there's all these things. And even though it to my parents, I'm sure it felt awkward, it was like, well, we're in America now, we should eat American food. And like, so we started eating things that weren't as healthy. I also ended up getting a lot of amalgam fillings. Those are the silver fillings, because back then that's what they put in. And Lithuania, they didn't have the best. Catie: yeah. Instant mashed potatoes. Danielle: I loved them. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Dental care. So when my god here, I had a lot of cavities just because they just didn't have that preventative medicine there. And so unfortunately, all of the fillings that I got were silver because that's what they did. And so, you know, eating processed foods, getting silver fillings. And I also interestingly, none of my vaccinations transferred over. So I had to get revaccinated again to go to school. So it was like all of these things happening all at the same time. And you know, at that point I was like 12, 13, I started getting really bad acne, which, you know, is not uncommon for a teenager, right? But it wouldn't go away. And I started doing all the antibiotics for it and you all the things that they did. I even did Accutane actually in high school, which helped, but my poor liver. And a lot of other things happened from that. But, you know, and then there wasn't much in f emphasis on nutrition and stress and things like that. And so then, you know, I went to college and it was okay. But I would just I I would get sick a lot and have colds and I've had a lot of strep throat. And so I did more antibiotics and you know it was just that kind of lifestyle. And so by the time I graduated, I went to school for finance. I started working on Wall Street. And it was a very cushy job. This was before the 2009 crash. Like I started in 2001. So this is where Wall Street wind and dined you. Right. Like we worked from nine to five. Danielle: Leo DiCaprio style. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yeah. Yeah. Like we went to the baseball games. We had the boxes at all the arenas and like it was just very cool, right? So you were working, you were going out, we were drinking, we're doing all the things. And that's when I started to feel really bad. My friends were going out and I wanted to just stay home and rest. I had so many headaches. I was so tired. I had a lot of IBS symptoms. I mean, literally, you name it. And I had the symptoms and I couldn't go through my day. I'm like, this is supposed to be like the peak here. Like I'm in living in New York City. I have this amazing job. Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: I can't even enjoy it and then like I couldn't sleep. There were so many different things. And so this is when I started going to regular doctors who tested me and told me there was nothing wrong because they did a lot of basic tests. My thyroid looked okay, right? Of course, no one tested me for Hashimoto's. They tested my TSH. they looked at my basic, basic labs, but they didn't look to see if I was actually deficient in nutrients, if I had any metabolic issues. It was very much like The structure of things looked good, but no one actually looked at the function of what was happening. And so that went on for two years. Actually, also with that, I still had acne. I was 22 at the time. Not very cool to have acne and be, you know, working and in front of people and all of that. And I think that bothered me the most, if I'm being honest. I know it sounds vain, but it it's your skin, you know, it's like how you present to the world. And even though I had the headaches and the menstrual issues and the fatigue and all that, like the acne bothered me. And then I started getting a lot of yeast infections. And it wasn't just like, I have one. I mean, I think everyone listening, I'm sure people have had one here and there. We know how annoying it is, but you know, you take medicine and goes away, it's done. Right. For me, and I think it was just all of the antibiotics that I was on over the years, plus all the stuff I was taking for my skin, I would get one, I would go to the doctor, I would do the nia niacide or the monosat, whatever the cream was. And then it would feel better for a couple of days and then it would come back. I'll be like, that's weird. All right. Well, let me go get a stronger cream or let me get the the pill form of it. And it just kept coming back. And this is really the first time in my life where I literally felt like my body was broken. Because before that, you know, I would take medicine and things would sort of get better. Right. But this was one of those things, like, it's an easy thing. Like everyone just does a cream and it's fine. And it wasn't. And so then I went to more doctors and Danielle: It's over. Inna Topiler CNS MS: They were like, Well, we don't know why it's happening. Here's another cream. Here's another cream. Or I was even offered antidepressants because they were like, Well, you're probably depressed. You guys. Yeah. And I was like, I I'm not depressed. I'm just really depressed because I'm not getting better. Danielle: Pressure didn't need infection. Come on. The obvious obvious connection. What? Catie: I have yeast infec had a yeast infection for none. Yeah. Danielle: I'm sick. That's Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yeah. You know, and again, I mean, it seems like it might seem like a small thing. These other things were bigger, the fatigue and the headaches, but it's a very uncomfortable thing. And obviously for everyone listening, I mean, we know the downstream effect that that has on everything else in your life, right? And so it was probably about two years of going through this, then I finally saw an endocrinologist. Danielle: a new one. Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: And that's when I got diagnosed with Hashimoto's because the whole time before the Nikola, we don't know why you're getting these infections. We don't know why you're breaking up. We don't know why you have headaches. We don't know why your stomach is like this. You just have IBS or you just have migraines or you just have whatever. You should exercise more or do this. Meanwhile, I was so tired. I literally could not exercise because I was just too tired. And so then finally, this endocrinologist, which was probably my third at the time, was like, I found I know what you have. You have Hashimoto's. And I was like, I have Hashi. What? Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Like, it's this autoimmune, but it's fine. And I was like, What what do you mean? I was like, this is great. Like, what are we gonna do? And they're like, Yeah, don't worry. I'm like, Well, what do you mean? If I have this autoimmune, like, let's fix it. And they said, Well, there's no cure for autoimmunity. And was like, Okay, but like, what do we do? I get there's no cure, but what do we do? And they're like, Well, we do nothing. And I was like, Huh. What do you mean? And they said, Well, eventually your thyroid's going to get destroyed by your immune system. Danielle: Mm. Inna Topiler CNS MS: But it's not destroyed just yet. So that's why we wait and see. And when your thyroid does start to get destroyed, that's when we'll give you thyroid medicine and you'll feel better from that. But you don't need it right now. So now we just wait and see. Danielle: How old were you when they said wait and see? Inna Topiler CNS MS: I was of twenty two or twenty three. Danielle: Can't imagine. Like what? Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yeah. Now the thing is, people are told this all the time, even now, 25 years later. And some people just take that for what it is for me. And thank goodness that I had, you know, just a family history of, you know, that medicine was very different in Lithuania. And my grandma used to always talk to me about like, this is how we like do it with patients. We try to figure out why things are happening and all of the different things like that. And so I that's what I think that education from an early age is what got me to say, well, wait a minute, that doesn't make any sense to me. Now remember too, this is 2003, I wanna say. So this is before Instagram, before YouTube, this is before even like as much on the internet, right? Like that information wasn't readily available, but I knew I had to look elsewhere. And I remember there was an ebook that I read. And I wish I remember the person who wrote it because honestly I would love to thank him because that opened my eyes to just looking at things more integratively. Like I learned that like there's antibiotics in the meat. And and again, this is in 2003. Like no one was talking about that. Whole Foods was just like starting out. So I learned a lot of that. And then from there I found an integrative doctor who was a naturopath and also a clinical nutritionist. And that's when we really got into the nitty-gritty. And we tested my whole thyroid, not my TSH. We looked for metals. We looked for candida. I had a lot of that. We looked for hormone balances. There's all these different things. And these tests were different. They weren't regular blood tests. They, I mean some were blood, but some we did through saliva and urine and you know, and it was really looking at that functioning of my body. And there was a lot of stuff wrong. There was a lot. But In this case, I was excited because he was like, this is good, right? Because the more we find, the more we can fix. You know, it's way worse if we say, sorry, it's nothing here. Right. Like this was good. and so, you know, it took a bit of time. I certainly don't want to sugarcoat it. It wasn't like, we found this and then whoop, everything was better, right? I mean, I had to detox, I had to change my diet. I was sensitive to gluten. I was sensitive to dairy. And interestingly, dairy was actually what was giving me the acne. Catie: Yeah. We don't know. Go figure. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Go figure, right? Here I was when I was younger doing all of these medicines. Here I was thinking, and I remember I would I you guys would laugh, but I would take two creams and I literally would put one cream on one cheek and one on the other to see which makes me break out. And then like I would get a pimple here and be like, it must be this cream. Catie: It was that one. Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: you know, and like I did so much of that because I'm such a like a scientist, right? Even then, like I wanted to experiment meanwhile, like literally it had nothing to do with any. I mean, I could have put butter on my face, like it would not have mattered. and so I figured all the stuff about food. I had to detox, I had to do a gut cleanse. we did a lot of hormone balancing. I mean, it was a lot, but or and I should say, like I started to feel better. And even though I went through a lot of different things, I started to feel better right away. It just took a little bit. Catie: No. It wouldn't hear. Inna Topiler CNS MS: For all of the layers to kind of shed of some of these toxins and the stressors and things like that. And I was able to get it in remission. And by the way, what it means to get Hashimoto's in remission is not necessarily that you get your antibodies down to zero, but it's that you stop the attack so that you either don't need more, like to take medicine or so that you don't need more and more. And at that point, I did go on a small dose of medicine, which was very helpful for me because my thyroid, even though this initial endocrinologist said that my thyroid is just fine, it wasn't. It was within the lab's normal range. But what's really important for people to understand is that the lab ranges are very, very wide. And ideally, you want to be in the optimal range, which is much more narrow. So for TSH, just to give an example, and you know, people who have a thyroid issue, and I know so many people listening. knows a lot of people don't know they have it, but I know a lot of people do know they already have it. A typical range for TSH is about 0.5 to 4.5. this is on like a lap core request, but you really want to be under three. And I was like four point six. And they're like, it's like pretty close, you're fine. But it wasn't. and so a small dose really helped and then, you know, kind of all went from there. Danielle: Yeah, push. Catie: Hm, yeah. Wow. So I feel like it's interesting you talk about how you discovered all this pre-social media because now maybe it's because of the the nature of what Danielle and I are doing here with the podcast. We're seeing tons of people talk about it. And I feel like it's a lot of moms getting diagnosed. Can you kind of dive into why that may be? Inna Topiler CNS MS: Yes. So what's interesting with Hashimoto specifically is that because it's an autoimmune condition, the times that are most common for it to flare is actually when the immune system goes through shifts. And the biggest shifts that your immune system is going to go through in your life is going to be hormonal shifts. So puberty, pregnancy, and postpartum, right? I kind of count that as one, and perimenopause menopause. Because when we go through these hormonal shifts, and it interestingly, it doesn't matter if the hormones go up or go down, right? Because puberty, they're going up, pregnancy, they're up and then they drop. And then in menopause, they drop, you know, slower than postpartum, but they still drop. And so whenever you go through this hormone change up or down, that creates a lot of sensitivity in our immune system, meaning that our immune system becomes finicky, if you will. So when there's a hormone, it's just more sensitive. So the things that you may not have been sensitive to before, you can become. For example, maybe you always eat gluten and have never had an issue with it. Postpartum, a lot of people can become gluten sensitive. The same thing as in perimenopause and menopause, right? There could be a toxin that didn't affect you, but the immune system is more sensitive and affects you now. It could be a virus that has always been in your body, like the Epstein Barr virus, but when the immune system is more sensitive. That virus can rear its ugly head and it can have more of an effect. And so with moms, what happens is that in pregnancy our hormones go up. And usually people don't have as many issues, especially if you have auto autoimmunity in pregnancy, because pregnancy is a very immune suppressed time because we don't want to attack the baby, right? So the immune system actually has all of these compensatory mechanisms to calm itself and to kind of keep things in this status quo because. You know, the baby's technically foreign, right? But it's like we're gonna do everything to protect. But then postpartum, it gets reversed, right? Our hormones go from really high to really low in a extremely short period of time. And then that's when anything and everything can rear its ugly head. And so because we've gone through that hormone change, if we're genetically predisposed, but it doesn't even have to be just genetics, right? It could be that you know, we also naturally. Don't sleep after, right? We have a lot of stress, especially if it's our first baby, things are very different. And so then all of those things factor together is that perfect storm that if the immune system is already heading that way, it's like boom, you know, it all hits at once. Catie: Yeah. Yeah. And how would you what advice would you give someone because we're talking about like symptoms that are like every day to a new mom, fatigue, brain fog, weight gain, that type of thing? How do you differentiate between what's postpartum and what's symptoms? Inna Topiler CNS MS: Katie, that is a great question. And I think the best way is to actually test and see. Because if I'm gonna be completely honest with you, sometimes there's not really a good way to differentiate between those symptoms because they are very similar to the fatigue, the brain fog, the weight gain. sometimes it could be high cholesterol, it could be hair loss, it could be dry skin, it could be brittle nails. But again, all of these things happen postpartum. Now, one thing I would say is that typically, With postpartum, those symptoms are there, but they're not as long term. So for example, when your estrogen drops, and by the way, and I always tell people in perimenopause and menopause, when your estrogen starts to drop, and people say, I'm like calendar blind. Like I forget. Like I saw the calendar and I have this today, but I forgot. Or, you know, I'm just so foggy. It's actually the exact same symptoms as right, right postpartum, like in those first three weeks, because you have that huge drop. I remember trying to clean up my kitchen. My son was like maybe a few weeks old. And I literally like I looked at the kitchen. There was like plates over here. There was like three pots on the stove, and there was like crumbs on the floor. And I was like looking at the counter, looking at the stove, looking at the floor, and I'm like, okay, okay, I gotta clean this, but which do I do first? I don't know. Is it the plates? Is it that? And I literally was like, I don't know what to do, right? Like it's that like crazy. Catie: I'm frozen. Yeah. Danielle: Katie, this sounds exactly like I feel like I just had this conversation with you yesterday, like about my brain. Cause I think too, what's happening is people are having kids later. I'm 40. I have a three year old, right? So paramenopause and postpartum happening together, plus like all the then we had COVID. A lot of the symptoms of COVID were similar to postpartum and paramenopause. And I just think it's so overwhelming because we don't know. What you don't know and you just don't realize. And I think like advocating for yourself when you don't have the right information is hard to. So like, say you're feeling these things and you go to the doctor and they say that you're in the normal range. Like, what do you suggest we say to our doctors or primary care physicians to be able to get the right testing to differentiate? Inna Topiler CNS MS: Absolutely. So, and this is really important. When you want to evaluate your thyroid, it is really important to get a full thyroid panel. So a full thyroid panel is going to be TSH, and you guys can put this in the show notes if it's helpful, but it's going to be TSH. It's going to be total T4, free T4, total T3, free T3, reverse T3, T3 uptake. Danielle: Yeah. Catie: Right. Inna Topiler CNS MS: And both thyroid antibodies. Now, if you ask your doctor, and sometimes you do need to push a little bit, you will get that. But if you don't, you will get TSH and T4. Maybe if you're lucky, you'll get T3, but unlikely, unless your doctor is more integrated. And so this is something that's very important because without that, you're not going to know what's going on. And I don't want to get like too much in the weeds with the science, but just as like a quick overview. Because I think it might be helpful people to understand. When you produce thyroid hormone, you actually start in the brain. Your brain is going to stimulate the thyroid to produce thyroid hormone. It's going to produce a hormone called T4, but that's actually not your active hormone because T3 is your active hormone. But your body's going to produce mostly T4 in the thyroid. That T4 then is going to travel to your liver and your gut. And that's when it's going to convert from T4 to T3 there. Now, Ideally, it's going to convert in a good way, but there's a lot of issues that can happen where that doesn't happen. And then from there, once you convert the T4 to T3, both T4 and T3 then have to go to your cell. They have to find the cell, they have to knock on the door of the cell, so to speak, which is that receptor, ask if they can come, and the cell has to accept them. So from the time that your brain stimulates the thyroid, To the time that the right hormones get to the cell, there's five different steps that need to happen. So if you just test for TSH, which is not even a thyroid hormone, that's actually a pituitary hormone, you're gonna get a little bit from TSH. And TSH is important, don't get me wrong, but it's one thing. That's why you need all of those labs because those help us to figure out where the breaks are. This is what I call thyroid types, like what thyroid type. Are you? Because with hypothyroidism, you could have different types, right? Are the breaks in where the conversion is? Is it where the absorption is? It is where maybe where the thyroid hormone is made, right? There's a lot of different steps. So that's why that's important. And I have many resources for people if they want to kind of dig into that more. but start with getting labs. And ideally, you want to get the full panel. If they don't do the full panel, fine, but get more than just TSH. Because if you just get TSH and your TSH is off, okay, cool. Then you know something. But 50% of the time your TSH could be completely normal and there's still a thyroid issue. And then on top of that, we want to make sure that we're testing for thyroid antibodies, which is for how a doctor would diagnose with Hashimoto's when you have elevated antibodies, because you want to see both. Because even if your thyroid is okay, like mine was, but you do have antibodies, you can still have all the same symptoms from the immune system attack, even while the thyroid is still okay. Catie: So once someone were to go through this testing and they saw the the antibodies and if they're getting a similar, you know, answer like you did, where it's like, we need to wait and see, maybe from their primary care physician or that, what do you suggest to go to next? Like what resources would you recommend to somebody now? or what would be the first few steps you would tell someone to take once they've gotten kind of that diagnosis? Inna Topiler CNS MS: Absolutely. So once if they get the diagnosis that they have thyroid antibodies, right, and they have Hashimoto's, I mean, of course, we always say speak with your doctor, right? I mean, that's your first point of contact. Now, if you hear something like, antibodies don't matter, or it's just Hashimoto's, there's nothing you can do about it anyway, or don't worry about it, we'll just support your thyroid. This is your sign, right? That, okay, like again, doesn't mean you have a bad doctor, right? Because You know, doctors are trained with in a way that kind of looks at some things, but they're not trained to get to the bottom of like the root cause of stuff. It's more like, let's just get you to feel better and move on. And there's just gaps in some of that training, right? So, you know, we're not saying anything negative about anyone, but it's like it should be your sign that okay, they're gonna take me s to to a certain point, right? But like we wanna think of it as like we're going from A to Z. Danielle: huh. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Right. So if this doctor doesn't understand or believe that we could do something about Hashimoto's, maybe they'll take me from A to D and then we want to find other things. So the things that people can do on their own. So the first is just to understand that in autoimmunity we have different triggers, and triggers are things that are going to confuse the immune system. Now those things are going to vary depending on the person, but triggers could be anything like the foods we're eating. It could be the toxins that we're exposed to. It could be the viruses that we have underlying in our body. And last but certainly not least, the different stress that we're under. Now, there's a ton you can do about those things, even on your own. I mean, obviously if you're seeing someone more integrative or doing some of these other programs that we have, we get to the bottom of that. But even if you're just starting on your own, there's so much that you can do. Right. So looking at the foods you're eating, are there foods your body's sensitive to? An elimination diet can be really helpful to figure that out. And you can see if you feel better with that. if you have the budget for doing a food sensitivity test could be helpful. But even just eating in a clean way, right? We talk about toxins. Well, can we try to eat foods that are more organic, right? So that then we're not getting at least some of the pesticides and the herbicides in the food. Right. Can we eat in a way that is more natural? Also, can we eat in a way where we're balancing our blood sugar, right? Where we eat in the morning, not five hours after we wake up, when we don't wait six hours between meals, because Danielle: Mm-hmm. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Especially as we talk about stress, most people tell me, they'll say, you know, Ina, you don't understand my life. You know, I have five children, I have a job, there's financial stuff, I I can't do anything about my stress. To which I say, Yes, you can. I'm not asking you to change your life or make your kids go away. Right. But when you skip meals, you're creating blood sugar dysregulation. Did you know that blood sugar blood sugar dysregulation is literally one of the biggest stressors on the body? Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: more so than your job or your kids. It's a physical stress, right? Because we have stress that's physical and stress that's emotional. Right. So can we at least look at the physical stressors if there's really nothing we can do, right? For the emotional. So looking at some of the toxins and how can we have less of them, right? Maybe we get a water filtration system so that we're not drinking the chlorine or some of the other stuff in the water, right? Maybe we get an air filter so we're breathing cleaner air. Danielle: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: you know, for some people, you know, maybe if they're able to, right? Maybe we look to see if we have underlying viruses or underlying bacteria because we can do things and we can do things naturally. I mean, the people I work with on my programs, we do this very easily because we have the right protocols for that. You know, maybe we have heavy metals, right? So can we start looking to see how we can detox those while at the same time putting less in, right? because you know, if we're trying to have less pollution, we want to dilute it, right? The answer to pollution is dilution. so it's like, how do we even drink more water, right? To like flush some of that out. I mean, these things are simple, but they are very effective. You know, and then on the stress side of things, I mean, we have the physical stress, right? But then from the emotional side, there's still things that can be done. I get it, that people can't overhaul their whole life, right? But, you know, I find with those who have Hashimoto's and thyroid autoimmunity. and even like a slow thyroid, there's certain character traits. and I think as women, right, a lot of us have that, right? So, like, how often do we say yes when we actually really mean no? Right. I mean, right? But that is stress on the body. We say it because we want to people please, right? Because we don't want to be rejected, because we want to fit in, which is all very logical. It makes sense, right? But people don't realize that. Catie: Mm-hmm. Danielle: All the time. Inna Topiler CNS MS: There's an internal stress because when you say yes and you mean no, and then you go to the thing that you don't want to go to, like there's this like inner feeling, whether you know it or not, right? And that's gonna create stress. So I know it's not always easy, but we can start to think about how can I be more authentic, right, to myself. And interestingly, too, the thyroid is in our throat, which is energetically our fifth chakra. And it's all about speaking what you want to say. Now, for so many of us, we are so scared. Catie: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: to just say what we want to say. So I always tell people, start slow. You know what? If you can't say it, journal it. Write it down. Like just get it out because otherwise some of these things are literally going to get stuck in our physical body. Catie: Mm-hmm. Danielle: And I think it's so interesting that you say that because you know I'm gonna go off on this, Katie. So sorry. But like energetically, like I feel like people think it's woo-woo, like that your throat chakra and things like that, like get stuck. But anxiety and stress and not speaking, like it's so funny if you do any other type of like healing, whether you believe it or not, you're like if you will get an aura picture taken, like so much of it always shows up in your for me at least, in my throat chakra. If you go to Reiki healing. It's always in for women so often. And everybody you talk to, it's always like, even if you sit down with yourself and say, where do I feel my stress? For me, it's always here. Like that's how I know something is like going on. And it's funny that like you put those two things together because I feel like women in general, but especially moms, people between the ages of like 30 and 50, like this is just such a time where We're told everything that we feel is normal. Like, get over it, move on. Like, this is just part of being a mom. This is part of being a working mom. This is part of being a wife. This is part of being going through paramenopause. Like, this is just all normal. And I think we don't hear enough of people saying, like, hey, it's okay to say like this doesn't feel normal to me. And to be able to have someone like you who you can work with and say, like, help me walk through like what normal should look like for me is like such It's something that our parents didn't have. It's something that people like you ten years like ten years ago didn't have. So I just think it's awesome that people have resources and that they can find people like you. Catie: Yeah. And it's important to like I think my biggest question I wanted to ask today was like, how do you ask your doctor for these things? Because sometimes you go in and depending on the doctor, right? Like some it like I have doctors that I love and they talk to me and I always feel really great. But sometimes I'm in there for 10 minutes that I'm actually like seeing it. So sometimes like appointments can feel fast. And you know, if you're don't feel prepared to ask the questions and know what questions to ask. it can get missed and then it's like, I don't have, you know, my annual visit for another year or, you know, you don't feel comfortable with those things. So it's important. But I wanna hear from you, what would be the advice you would give to someone if they feel dismissed by their doctor and they've kind of shut down and they feel like they're ready to give up? What would your advice be to them? Inna Topiler CNS MS: I would say that nobody knows your body like you. And you don't stop until you get the answers because those answers are out there. Now, there's a lot of doctors out there. Now, I understand that obviously there's certain constraints depending on geographic, like geographically, where people live, right? Or financially, what could they afford? Because some doctors that are going to be more integrative typically do not take insurance and it does cost more. And I understand that. But Even with that, I mean, I think if you can afford it, look at a doctor that does concierge type medicine, right? That is more integrative where the appointments are an hour. I mean, I sit down when I do one-on-one, it's at least an hour with someone. You know, now we have our program, so it cuts people's learning curve like so much that like it gives them all that information. But the people are out there. Now, if you have to go through insurance and you can't afford it, which is totally understandable, there are doctors who take insurance. That do take more time, right? It may take a little bit of research, it may take kissing a few frogs, right? Like, but you have to be true to what you know. And if something feels off, I just want people to know that they're not crazy. And you are also not being a hypochondriac either. If something feels off, there's a reason for that, and you need to keep looking. And I promise you, you know, there are doctors that. will look at it. Now I think obviously listening to this and all of the information that you guys bring and educating people, knowing, hey, TSH is not enough, right? Like look at these things. So now you know you need to look at these markers, ask your doctor. If the doctor says, no, I'm not doing that, then you know, okay, let me find someone else, right? Like there's nothing wrong. Now, also it doesn't mean you have to completely go away and stop seeing this doctor. You can see this doctor and maybe someone else and work together with them, right? The other thing too is that you can, and again, I want to be very mindful. I am in no way trying to say that you should not listen to your doctor and go out on your own. That is not the point of this. But what I am saying is like as you work with your doctor, you also I think it's helpful for you to know that you have options to do some things on your own too, whether that is taking courses right from experts, or you can get your own lab work. Now you do have to pay for it, but it's not that expensive. Catie: Yeah, of course. Inna Topiler CNS MS: You know, for a couple of hundred dollars, which again, I mean, it depends on the person. And certainly I'm not saying that that's the I know that's kind of expensive for some people, but generally speaking, it's not a test that's thousands and thousands of dollars, right? For a couple of hundred dollars, maybe that's something you can save for. You can get your own labs in most US states. You can just order them on your own. You could do cash labs. So then you can see what's going on. Danielle: Yeah. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Right. You I have a free resource where I show you how to interpret your labs called the thyroid map. You can look at that and get your labs and you can see. Right. And then there's all these support that you could get, whether it's from us or from another provider. Right. So I just want people to understand that wherever they are, they're not stuck. And sometimes, oftentimes, right, you just have to look elsewhere. And there's nothing wrong with that. Right. Your doctor is not going to be offended if you have someone else along with them, right? Or Possibly instead. Danielle: And that goes back to like you're we're worried about offending our doctors, but how much time, like we talk about time is money. That's like our biggest commodity that we wish we had more of is time. So how much time are you spending feeling ill, taking off because you can't like you have a migraine or going to special like specialists that the doctors take you to? So many times we think about like, it's a couple hundred dollars and not dismissing a couple hundred dollars, but how much time have you already spent trying to find answers where if you just did this one thing? It could save you thousands and thousands of dollars equatable to time just by understanding like what you need to be doing. You could be spending money on things right now that you think are awesome that are actually hurting you and you don't even know it. And I just think that's w it's a wild concept. And, you know, when you say it like that, it's you can always start somewhere. Like it's never there's it's not too late to start. Catie: Right. Danielle: looking, researching, and there's always resources out there. Catie: Yeah. Yes. And if you guys are out there listening and you have questions, please drop them in our comments. Send us a direct message. We're going to have all of Ina's stuff linked here. So you can find everything there. But you do all have to go check out. She has programs for every stage of thyroid journey, including the thyroid mystery solved course. So that's a 10-day Hashimoto's weight loss transformation course. We also are gonna link the free thyroid audit. That both Danielle and I downloaded. We were kind of to just take a look. but it's a great thing to just start. Hopefully, you guys got a lot of great advice. We have such a wealth of knowledge here with us, and we just scratched the surface, I'm sure. but if anyone wants to, we'll have everything linked. We appreciate you so much, Aina, for coming on. This was so good. I feel like we sat and listened a lot, but I absorbed so much information. Inna Topiler CNS MS: I'm Danielle: Yes, Inna Topiler CNS MS: glad. Thank you. Danielle: you're awesome. Thank you. I could ask you five million more questions, but it's time to clock back into the nine to five. I know that. Catie: We'll see you all next. We might have to. We might have to. Thanks again. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Well, we'll have to do a part two. Danielle: We will. Thank you. Inna Topiler CNS MS: Thank you.