Latest / Coopers' Code / Clem Glynn on AI in Law, Brief Writing, and Courtroom Integrity

Transcript

Clem Glynn on AI in Law, Brief Writing, and Courtroom Integrity · Coopers' Code

• 0:00
  I do think civility is underestimated.
• 0:05
  And by that I mean that is not only something that is expected
• 0:10
  of us by our profession. It's good for us.
• 0:15
  You know, judges appreciate civility, juries appreciate
• 0:20
  civility, the clients appreciate civility.
• 0:24
  But civility allows you to have conversations and, you know, if
• 0:29
  you get into a good relationship where there's mutual respect and
• 0:31
  trust, I often if I get brought into a case, I'll call a
• 0:35
  plaintiff's lawyer or the on the plaintiff, the defense lawyer
• 0:38
  and say, look, let's figure out what we can do informally.
• 0:42
  You've always got the right to quality control.
• 0:44
  Check it, you know, with a deposition if you want.
• 0:47
  But you know, I'm, I'm all for getting it out there and seeing
• 0:51
  what we think of the case and getting to that point as quickly
• 0:54
  as we can. When you've got civility, you've
• 0:57
  got a much greater chance to have that kind of honest broker
• 1:02
  relationship. Howdy, and welcome to the show.
• 1:07
  Cooper's Code focuses on legal issues and notable
• 1:09
  practitioners, distilling wisdom so we all achieve the best
• 1:12
  results for our clients. I'm Miles Cooper and I'm
• 1:16
  thrilled to show Part 3 of this conversation with Clement Glen.
• 1:23
  You talk about robots and one of the things that is is very top
• 1:29
  of mind right now is AI, generative AI in particular, and
• 1:35
  how that may be reshaping how cases are staffed, how law firms
• 1:40
  are staffed. Have you and your partners had
• 1:44
  any conversations or done any sort of evaluation as to what
• 1:48
  the future might look like a year, 2 years, three years from
• 1:51
  now with that on the horizon? More conversations than
• 1:56
  planning, but it's probably among the fact you know, so I'm
• 2:04
  I'm 51 years into the practice. I don't practice cuz I need to.
• 2:09
  I practice cuz I like the people I'm with and I like being
• 2:12
  relevant and I like solving problems and I suck at golf, but
• 2:17
  I really do have some of the technology resistance or, or
• 2:23
  allergy to learning certain new things.
• 2:30
  You know, it's, it's pathetic, but I really do feel that's,
• 2:34
  that probably describes parts of me.
• 2:35
  For example, I don't text. I can, but I don't want to be
• 2:41
  typing with my thumbs and all that.
• 2:43
  So I I don't and people, especially younger people,
• 2:48
  including my grandkids, it's like you don't text.
• 2:52
  What is this? Are you able to communicate with
• 2:54
  your grandkids? I I, I don't know that I can
• 2:56
  communicate with my children if they're out of the house without
• 2:57
  texting. No, I yeah, I can.
• 3:00
  And they're, they're really good.
• 3:02
  They're a good bunch. But but I do sense that.
• 3:04
  So there's a long way of saying that probably the AI decisions
• 3:09
  are not going to be made or certainly not designed by me.
• 3:14
  I'll do what I have to. But if at some point I have to
• 3:17
  learn too much, then given my estimated lifespan, I don't
• 3:22
  think I'll want to do that. But you know, what'll happen is
• 3:24
  if I, I mean, I still to this day, I, I don't set up my own
• 3:29
  Zoom calls because I, I've chosen not to learn and it's
• 3:34
  stupid, but I just say, Hey, could you come in and you know,
• 3:37
  could you set up a zoom call with miles at such and such and
• 3:40
  then they do it. So I suppose when AI comes, I
• 3:44
  can say that to the robot. Hey, could you?
• 3:46
  But you know, the idea that briefs may be written by robots
• 3:49
  is frightening to me. It's repugnant to me.
• 3:52
  And that again is maybe get off my lawn grandpa talking.
• 3:56
  I don't know. There it is.
• 3:57
  I think that there are ways that I have seen foreshadowing where
• 4:06
  the legal practice may improve. We may have more opportunities
• 4:09
  to do the fun parts of our job. Nothing is going to replace your
• 4:13
  evaluation, your conversation with that woman at the
• 4:18
  mediation. There's no bot that can do what
• 4:20
  you did there. And building discovery shells
• 4:25
  and taking information from client documents and putting it
• 4:29
  into special interrogatories. Nobody likes that.
• 4:34
  No paralegal, no junior associate.
• 4:37
  And if there's a way to make it so that that is easier and we
• 4:41
  can do higher level than the most fun parts of our job, I.
• 4:44
  Get your point And I that makes sense.
• 4:47
  I've heard people talking about, you know, even in my shop
• 4:49
  saying, you know, might be able to write a better brief.
• 4:56
  I mean, but you know, if the AI is doing the case research,
• 4:59
  etcetera. I mean, and that I don't know if
• 5:02
  you get comfortable and say well if they if the AI read the the
• 5:05
  case, then I guess they got it right because reading cases is
• 5:08
  an art. I mean, there's that New York
• 5:10
  incident that is of I think it's two or three years ago at this
• 5:15
  point, a New York lawyer in an aviation case has was dealing
• 5:19
  with I think it was a 12B6 and dispositive motion.
• 5:23
  And he used AI to write the brief, got some case citations
• 5:28
  that were really good for him in this case.
• 5:31
  So good that he asked the AI are, are these real cases AI
• 5:36
  said, yes, they're real. He didn't go and look for them
• 5:40
  though, and but the judge did and the Article 3 judge was not
• 5:47
  particularly pleased when there were cases being cited that were
• 5:51
  complete hallucinations. They didn't exist.
• 5:53
  So how? Yeah.
• 5:54
  From 2001, yeah. So I, I think that you're right
• 5:58
  it there are ways it will make light lifts easier.
• 6:04
  You know, why do we need to look up the standard for summary
• 6:09
  judgement and write that boilerplate?
• 6:11
  I mean, you're cutting and pasting it from a previous
• 6:12
  special anyway, but that won't stop us.
• 6:15
  If you're signing your name on it, you you own it.
• 6:18
  It's certainly a function of my life experience, including my,
• 6:24
  you know, early days in journalism where I have a
• 6:28
  reverence for the words. And I mean, I I love writing
• 6:31
  briefs. You know, the art of a brief is
• 6:33
  not just a clear sentence, but it's what goes where and what
• 6:39
  doesn't even make it. How do you develop a theme that
• 6:45
  works and doesn't have distractions?
• 6:48
  And I mean, for me, the hardest thing is to squeeze out all the
• 6:51
  extraneous stuff that when I start might be in my brief, you
• 6:55
  know, I start big and come down usually.
• 6:57
  But we'll see. I think I'm not against the AII,
• 7:01
  don't own any, own any Bitcoins and don't want to understand
• 7:05
  that world. But you know, probably bitcoins
• 7:08
  are a good thing, new president says.
• 7:10
  So there you go. It looks like that is the
• 7:13
  direction that we're headed. Yeah.
• 7:16
  Are there any points of wisdom cases, experiences that you feel
• 7:22
  would be beneficial for our listeners to to know?
• 7:24
  Depends who the listeners are. Well, I think one subject that
• 7:30
  is really important, it's it's important to Aboda, but it's
• 7:33
  important to the State Bar is civility.
• 7:37
  And you know, on the one hand, discussing civility can be
• 7:42
  virtue signaling, right? Oh, yes, I'm above, you know,
• 7:46
  we've all seen that. And, you know, since sometimes
• 7:52
  when you see somebody else who's in a boat or American College or
• 7:55
  whatever, and you know that civility is emphasized by both
• 7:59
  organizations, you say that's son of a bitch sitting here, you
• 8:01
  know, that kind of thing. We all know that.
• 8:04
  And there's probably people that said it about me, you know, like
• 8:07
  God, what a jerk. Because even though I believe in
• 8:10
  civility and I start with that as my assumption, my default,
• 8:15
  you know, let's be adults on this case.
• 8:18
  If somebody is a nasty SOB and wants to take it to the street,
• 8:23
  then we're we'll, we'll return fire.
• 8:25
  We're not going to cross lines, but we're not going to curl up
• 8:28
  in a ball and say, oh, can we talk about civility?
• 8:32
  Because there's certain people that aren't going to talk or
• 8:35
  practice it. But with that introduction, I, I
• 8:39
  do think civility is underestimated.
• 8:44
  And by that I mean that is not only something that is expected
• 8:49
  of us by our profession, it's good for us.
• 8:54
  Judges appreciate civility. Juries appreciate civility.
• 8:59
  Juries, they might like to see a good cross examination of a
• 9:03
  person who's inherently dislikable or who they've grown
• 9:07
  to distrust as they hear him or her testify.
• 9:10
  By and large, the confrontations that we, you know, dream about,
• 9:17
  you know those the, the Perry Mason moments, Jurors are
• 9:21
  uncomfortable with a lot of that stuff.
• 9:23
  They just want to know what what do I need to know to decide this
• 9:25
  case? Don't give me drama.
• 9:27
  So those are your two of your audiences.
• 9:30
  The next is the clients. If you are, you know, if you're
• 9:36
  a discovery game player, what are you going to do?
• 9:42
  You're going to harden feelings, make the case more difficult to
• 9:44
  settle and drive up the cost of the case dramatically.
• 9:48
  I mean, discovery is the most wasteful part of what we do it
• 9:52
  many times. Because of that, there's people,
• 9:54
  you know, I used to work with a lawyer who had, he'd go through
• 9:58
  all the documents and stuff, not in not in my firm, but he was a
• 10:01
  lawyer of Pillsbury and he would, he had three tiers, you
• 10:06
  know, first wave production, next wave he produces is if
• 10:09
  there's, you know, emotion and then, you know, then the hot
• 10:13
  docs that you know, he'd go to, he'd die for you.
• 10:16
  They're all responsive. But he put up these wall, these
• 10:19
  doors that you had to get through.
• 10:20
  And I thought, God, what kind of crap is that?
• 10:23
  So clients appreciate civility. You know, they're our clients
• 10:28
  who want a junkyard dog, you know, unless it's a woman and,
• 10:32
  and they don't want it because they think that's unseemly,
• 10:34
  right? There's, that's one of the great
• 10:36
  double standards. You know, my lawyer's a junkyard
• 10:38
  dog. And then if it's a woman, oh,
• 10:40
  what a bitch. You know, that sort of thing is
• 10:42
  still around, but much less so than I used to, in my
• 10:46
  experience. But civility allows you to have
• 10:49
  conversations and, you know, if you get into a good relationship
• 10:54
  where there's mutual respect and trust, I often, if I get brought
• 10:57
  into a case, I'll call a plaintiff's lawyer or the on the
• 11:00
  plaintiff, the defense lawyer and say, look, let's figure out
• 11:03
  what we can do informally. You've always got the right to
• 11:07
  quality control. Check it, you know, with a
• 11:09
  deposition if you want. But you know, I'm, I'm all for
• 11:13
  getting it out there and seeing, seeing what we think of the case
• 11:17
  and getting to that point as quickly as we can because I, I'm
• 11:23
  oriented to try to solve the problem.
• 11:26
  I've never tried to keep a file alive, you know, for economic
• 11:29
  reasons. I want, I want to win by getting
• 11:32
  it done, not necessarily by conquest, but just let's get it
• 11:36
  resolved because we're going to resolve it probably 90, what,
• 11:39
  five, 8% of the cases are going to get resolved.
• 11:43
  So doing it earlier is better than doing it later.
• 11:46
  And when you've got civility, you've got a much greater chance
• 11:54
  to have that kind of honest broker relationship.
• 11:58
  And the other thing is, every lawyer has experienced an
• 12:05
  opponent who you just don't want to deal with.
• 12:08
  You know what I see his letters or his emails.
• 12:09
  You don't want to talk to him or her on the phone because you
• 12:12
  know it's going to be so nasty and so unpleasant.
• 12:17
  And even if you can withstand it, it's like that.
• 12:20
  Who wants to spend part of their day dealing with that kind of
• 12:24
  Arrested Development case? Because it usually is.
• 12:26
  I mean, there's no rational reason to be that way unless
• 12:30
  you're being mistreated yourself.
• 12:32
  And then conversely, oh shit, that's Miles on the phone.
• 12:36
  We're probably going to talk about one of his podcasts before
• 12:39
  we even talk about our case together.
• 12:42
  To me, the friendships and the relationships that I've been
• 12:47
  able to make over the arc of a long career is probably the the
• 12:52
  most it's right up there. It's one of the two or three
• 12:56
  most gratifying parts of being a lawyer.
• 12:58
  And and to this day, you know, if I'm drawing a blank on an
• 13:02
  expert, I'll call plaintiff lawyer.
• 13:03
  Friends of mine say, here's the kind of case I got.
• 13:07
  I can give you a name, but don't I didn't give it to you.
• 13:10
  That kind of thing, you know, so there's a utility in it as a in
• 13:16
  addition to everything else. So in one sense, it's harder for
• 13:19
  young lawyers to have that vision because they're coming of
• 13:22
  age in the profession. They want to show they know what
• 13:24
  they're doing. And so sometimes they think,
• 13:27
  well, the only way to really do that is to be tough.
• 13:29
  But there are young lawyers who are very good at recognizing
• 13:34
  that professionalism and civility are not signs of
• 13:38
  weakness. They're signs of confidence.
• 13:41
  You know, and smart lawyers know that on on the receiving end.
• 13:44
  So and when I see a lawyer who's young and has those traits, I'm
• 13:50
  immediately like, OK, well, this is somebody I can, I don't have
• 13:54
  to get to the next level up. I can deal with this person.
• 13:56
  This is a good, this is a smart person.
• 13:58
  So I think that's a big part of the future of our profession.
• 14:02
  I'm smiling a little bit because I think back to when I was a
• 14:05
  young lawyer and drafting letters for my mentor, Cynthia
• 14:11
  Mcguinn, and having her rewrite them multiple times because and,
• 14:18
  and telling me. I understand that's what you
• 14:20
  think a lawyer should be doing, but that is not how we approach
• 14:23
  this. And and and and, whipping that
• 14:25
  civility into me. That's a lesson over a lifetime
• 14:28
  of, of this and you know, I, I again, I don't want a virtue
• 14:33
  signal. I'm sure I've had my moments
• 14:35
  because I've got a good Irish temper, but it ain't like it
• 14:38
  used to be. And I don't want to get
• 14:41
  political here, but we have a lot of things that are new
• 14:46
  aspirations in our culture on the part of some that other
• 14:53
  people think, oh come on, you know, you're just virtue
• 14:56
  signalling. And I think it would be easy for
• 14:58
  people to think that's what the the professions focus on
• 15:03
  civility is about. And I think that would be a
• 15:06
  mistake. And civility as a part of being
• 15:13
  a lawyer is all good. It's not a trade off.
• 15:17
  It's all good. You get more flies with honey
• 15:20
  than with vinegar. They tell me I've never tried
• 15:22
  either. And, and it's just true.
• 15:25
  It's just part of human nature. You know, think about the
• 15:27
  average litigating lawyer, whether it's he or she's in a
• 15:30
  big firm and they think that they're just God like creatures
• 15:35
  or in a a small firm or meaningful sized firm.
• 15:40
  What is common among most litigators?
• 15:43
  If they are aggressed, they aggress back.
• 15:49
  If somebody aggresses, they raise the ante.
• 15:52
  I'm tougher than you are. I'm not intimidated.
• 15:55
  Now what have you started? You've started a a forest fire,
• 16:00
  and whereas civility has the opposite effect, as I said
• 16:04
  before, it allows you to have a conversation.
• 16:07
  If you're enjoying what we're doing here with Cooper's Code,
• 16:09
  please help us extend our reach by giving us a five star review
• 16:12
  on Apple Podcasts and consider sharing an episode with a
• 16:14
  friend. Additionally, we want to know
• 16:16
  who you want to hear on the show.
• 16:18
  Have an interview suggestion? e-mail us at podcast at Cooper's
• 16:20
  dot Law. You mentioned having an Irish
• 16:23
  temper that may not flare as much as it used to.
• 16:26
  Do you have examples of because I can think of times where I, I
• 16:33
  espouse civility. I, I try to do my best and I'm
• 16:37
  not always perfect. And how, how have you course
• 16:40
  corrected when you've had what we'll, we'll just call it a
• 16:44
  failure in terms of an engagement with the other side?
• 16:47
  I don't know that I have kind of lost it and, and then said, Oh
• 16:53
  God, but there may be times when I was severe, but just, you
• 16:57
  know, they deserved it. So nothing to apologize about.
• 17:01
  But my, my pattern, like for example, you know, married for
• 17:07
  50-6 years and my pattern always has been to kind of go up fast.
• 17:13
  If I, you know, if something gets to me the wrong way and I,
• 17:16
  I get and then come down very quickly.
• 17:19
  And always, I think I've always maintained, I mean, I got a
• 17:22
  great wife who's never going to let me skate if I try to, but I
• 17:28
  always try to look OK, It was my behavior over a line.
• 17:32
  And if so, that to acknowledge it, to own it.
• 17:35
  And I, if I have done it in the profession and it sounds silly
• 17:39
  to say I've never done it, but I can't think of a time where I
• 17:41
  was mortified, where I said, oh, jeez, I should never have done
• 17:44
  that. Oh God, I lost my cool.
• 17:46
  I'm usually able to maintain my my temper professionally now on
• 17:52
  the basketball court. That was probably not always
• 17:55
  true. I used to play in the Bar
• 17:57
  Association League every year when I was at Pillsbury.
• 18:01
  We had a good team and we were always trying to get to the
• 18:05
  finals and sometimes we get semi, sometimes we get to the
• 18:07
  finals and one night we were playing the Dai think it was the
• 18:14
  DAS team and it had had Gordy Barranco, Leo Dorado who both
• 18:18
  became judges, both great basketball players.
• 18:22
  Perker Meeks played for him for a while, later MPD and then
• 18:25
  became judge and I think it was in that game.
• 18:29
  And anyhow, for some reason Ira Brown was there and Ira Brown
• 18:34
  was the former law in motion judge and for years in San
• 18:37
  Francisco and an interarim judge really smart, really didn't
• 18:42
  suffer fools and had shivelets that, you know, if you came in
• 18:47
  wearing a raincoat, he would just light you up and.
• 18:52
  I've heard stories of of Judge Brown.
• 18:54
  He preceded me. Yeah, he was.
• 18:56
  And he was big man. He was very heavy.
• 18:58
  And it was kind of like he didn't raise up and you know,
• 19:01
  it's just, and so he intimidated the hell out of me because I was
• 19:05
  a young lawyer. He was on the he was on the
• 19:07
  bench when I was a new lawyer and we were playing Thielen and
• 19:10
  maybe and that was his Old Firm, Thielen, Marron, Johnson and
• 19:13
  Bridges. And Brown is in the stands and I
• 19:17
  take one on the end of my pink and dislocated it.
• 19:20
  You know, it's like right angle dislocation.
• 19:23
  You know, I'd probably drop in a few F bombs.
• 19:26
  And they had to go to the hospital, I think SF General,
• 19:29
  where they said it and all that. And I had to appear the next
• 19:34
  morning in his courtroom. And I was thinking, oh, God, he
• 19:38
  saw me at my worst. And, and instead of him having
• 19:45
  some sort of scolding that he felt he had to give me, he he
• 19:50
  asked how I was, you know, just very, you know, human to human.
• 19:53
  And it was a good moment. It was a good moment.
• 19:56
  I said, you know, I held it up, said no, it's, it's pretty good.
• 19:59
  But I would say more in the athletic contest than in the
• 20:03
  legal contest. Would there be occasions where I
• 20:06
  would say I kind of lost my crap there, didn't I?
• 20:10
  But I'll think about that because it's a good question.
• 20:13
  And maybe the fact that I don't remember them tells you a lot
• 20:16
  about me, less about my civility and more about my ability to
• 20:21
  compartmentalize, as I told you earlier.
• 20:24
  I think though, I've, I've come across lawyers who don't rise.
• 20:26
  I, I, I know that I have risen on occasion, particularly in
• 20:30
  depo. I've snapped and then I try to
• 20:32
  apologize as quickly as I can. Yeah, well, you got the voice
• 20:35
  for it though, that's the thing. Clem, I've I've really enjoyed
• 20:38
  our conversations. Is is anything else that you
• 20:41
  feel that we should cover before we wrap up?
• 20:43
  I was telling somebody this story recently because I have
• 20:47
  had a few Perry Mason moments. The one that I remember most
• 20:52
  vividly, I was trying a case for Chevron in out of the Richmond
• 20:58
  refinery. So not a popular client and the
• 21:01
  plaintiff was a woman who was a an alleged safety whistleblower
• 21:07
  who claimed she'd been terminated for blowing the
• 21:10
  whistle. So dangerous case.
• 21:13
  Her lawyer was not civil. He's still practicing.
• 21:17
  I look him up every now and then.
• 21:18
  He's a young guy, big guy. And so when he's taking
• 21:22
  depositions of my people, he's literally leaning.
• 21:25
  His face is bright red and he's leaning across the table.
• 21:29
  He had a big booming voice, not a good mellow voice like yours,
• 21:32
  but a booming voice that came out of his chest and just trying
• 21:36
  to intimidate. So I'm sure I said some things
• 21:39
  to him, but I don't think I, I don't think I owed him an
• 21:44
  apology. Anyhow, so we go to trial and
• 21:49
  the plaintiff was in charge of what they call turnarounds at
• 21:54
  the refinery. That's when they shut down major
• 21:57
  vessels and they come in and they Weld and they clean and
• 22:00
  they refurbish and they replace parts and so forth.
• 22:03
  It's a big deal. They bring in massive amounts of
• 22:06
  people to do it. So they don't.
• 22:07
  They're not down. Production's not down any longer
• 22:10
  than necessary. Her job was to oversee the
• 22:14
  independent contractors who came in and just crack the whip.
• 22:19
  And it was a completely male dominated world, the refineries,
• 22:23
  and they wanted more female participation.
• 22:28
  And she fit the bill perfectly for this tough cookie.
• 22:32
  And so despite her having to make sure that the contractors
• 22:37
  toe the line, she persuaded some number of them to come to her
• 22:40
  home one weekend and move about 40 yards of topsoil using some
• 22:45
  of the heavy equipment that was on lease to Chevron for the
• 22:48
  Turner. This was found out about.
• 22:50
  It was a clear violation of conflict of interest policy.
• 22:53
  The head of HR told her boss, who loved her, she's got to go.
• 22:59
  Her boss said no, I can't afford to lose her.
• 23:01
  I need her. The head of HR says we either
• 23:06
  have a conflict of interest policy or we don't.
• 23:10
  If we don't terminate her, our policy is meaningless.
• 23:13
  It's not a progressive discipline kind of case.
• 23:19
  So he continues to internally fight the battle for her.
• 23:25
  And his son, in the midst of all this suffers an accident, might
• 23:28
  have been a bicycle accident and he had a serious head injury.
• 23:32
  And he's in the hospital and the dad, her of this woman's
• 23:39
  supervisor, Chevron, is at his son's bedside and he gets a
• 23:42
  call. You got to get down here because
• 23:46
  it's about to go down. And if you're going to try to do
• 23:49
  anything, you're going to have to be.
• 23:51
  So he leaves his son he was worried about and goes to the
• 23:55
  refinery and is ultimately unsuccessful and she's
• 23:58
  terminated. She complained about everything
• 24:01
  that was part of who she was. So she did have some safety
• 24:04
  complaints in the long list of things she complained about so
• 24:08
  she could piece together the story.
• 24:11
  It was not why she was fired. And so the she makes the huge
• 24:16
  mistake of suing both Chevron and her supervisor guy who would
• 24:22
  fight for her to the and did and she wrote it up.
• 24:26
  I can't remember the language anymore, what the particular
• 24:29
  point was, but she attributed to him things that were completely
• 24:32
  false. And I knew this and I had a way
• 24:35
  to prove it. And so I've got her on the stand
• 24:38
  on cross examination. So the first time I formulated
• 24:41
  the question, I said, I read that part of the report and I
• 24:45
  said, now miss so and so when you said blankety blank, that
• 24:50
  was not correct, was it? Well, you know, I, I, I had just
• 24:54
  this long non responsive answer. So in certain instances you, you
• 25:02
  have casting that you didn't create that allows for dramatic
• 25:05
  pauses. It's I can look over at the jury
• 25:10
  and they're kind of looking down.
• 25:11
  And I so I went to now, I escalated the question, miss so
• 25:16
  and so when you said, and I read it again, that was untrue,
• 25:24
  wasn't it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:30
  So I turned, it was Judge Berniers, who's I went to the
• 25:32
  DCA and I said, Your Honor, would you please instruct the
• 25:36
  witness to answer my question. Miss so and so you need to
• 25:39
  listen and answer counsel's question.
• 25:42
  So this time I took the question up a notch, Miss so and so when
• 25:48
  you said, and I read it again, that was a lie, wasn't it?
• 25:53
  And she knew she had to. And she says yes, but that's the
• 25:56
  only time I lied. So the case was pretty much
• 26:01
  over. Yeah.
• 26:02
  Yeah. So those are the moments we
• 26:04
  dream about. And she was a bad person.
• 26:06
  You know, this wasn't a jump ball case.
• 26:08
  She was a liar. And the whole case was a lie.
• 26:11
  And she was so vibrous that she attacked a guy who had left his
• 26:16
  son's bedside to come to go to bed for her.
• 26:20
  Yeah. Evil.
• 26:22
  Well, thank you very much, Clem for taking the the time to sit
• 26:24
  down with us. That's my pleasure, enjoyed it.
• 26:27
  And thank you for listening today.
• 26:29
  Please e-mail us at podcast at Coopers dot law with questions,
• 26:32
  comments, feedback and suggestions for who we should
• 26:34
  have on the show. Like what you heard?
• 26:37
  Share us with a colleague and leave us a five star review on
• 26:39
  your podcast platform of choice. To all of you doing justice out
• 26:42
  there. Happy hunting.