Latest / Divorce Dialogues / After the Divorce: Rebuilding Your Sense of Self with Barbara Parker
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- Barbara Parker (00:00): If you stay stuck in that thought process of I just want things to be the way they were, you'll never find happiness because even if you do get back from that person, things will never be how they were before because now you know a little bit more, you both have a little bit more experience and the only thing you can do is grow from it. But the people that tend to thrive are those that actually get in touch with themselves and remember, what did you like before you met this person? Katherine Miller (00:32): Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate to navigating the process with dignity to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. One of the things that I've noticed about divorce is that there is a lot of attention on the decision to end the marriage. Should I stay? Should I go? What will the settlement look like and what happens with the kids? But at some point there is another question that emerges. That question is, now what? Because divorce doesn't just end a relationship. It can challenge your sense of identity, your confidence, your assumptions about the future, and even your understanding of who you are when you're no longer a part of the life you thought you were building. (01:38): And while the legal process eventually does come to an end, even if it doesn't feel like it, that it ever will at times, the personal process of divorce always continues and the work of rebuilding, of learning to trust yourself again, of creating a life that feels authentic and aligned with who you are now. So what this conversation is really about is what happens after the decision has been made and what happens after the divorce, not just how people survive divorce, but how they begin to move forward with greater clarity, intention and purpose. My guest today is Barbara Parker. She has spent much of her career helping people navigate exactly that journey. Barbara is a relationship coach. She's a licensed mental health therapist and she's the author of a powerful divorce. Through her coaching practice and her book, Barbara helps people navigate the emotional, financial, and spiritual aftermath of divorce so that they can move forward with greater clarity, confidence, and purpose. (02:37): And today she joins me to discuss what it really takes to heal after divorce and build a life that's aligned with who you are becoming. Welcome, Barbara Parker. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Barbara Parker (02:48): Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Katherine Miller (02:50): Maybe you could tell us what inspired you to write a powerful divorce and particularly what did you think was missing from the conversation around the topic of divorce? Barbara Parker (03:00): What caused me to write a powerful divorce was one, going through my divorce was devastating. And in that I realized that so many people don't realize the legal implications. I did a dissolution, which I thought this is the most cost-effective. And then I found out not having that legal counsel cost me in ways I hadn't even anticipated because I was looking at, I'm getting divorced today, not what are my kids going to need in 10, 15 years and building that into that agreement. So the other piece of it is the emotional implications of ending a relationship and how that impacts the family relationships that you have with the other family and the family that you thought you were going to build. And it just becomes overwhelming. And so I wanted to provide support for people who were struggling with that, wanting to date after the divorce, feeling like they did not have a hope of getting another partner because getting a divorce is similar to grief and death of that dream. (04:14): And so you have no idea what life looks like afterwards and just struggling with the identity of who you are now. So helping people through that. Katherine Miller (04:22): It sounds like there's really two things there. One is just in your own experience, what I'm hearing you say is that you're really focused on the here and now and not necessarily the implications of the decisions you were making today on what that was going to look like is it unwound over the years to come. I think that's on piece of it. And since you were doing it yourself, you didn't have the advantage of somebody else saying, "Well, Barbara, but what about this? And how's that going to work? And what happens when this happens?" And all of those kinds of pragmatic questions about living it. That's one thing. Barbara Parker (04:55): Yeah. The only thing I wanted to do was just get out of it with my house and my kids and figuring out how to negotiate that ability. Katherine Miller (05:04): And then another piece of it is who am I after this divorce? Who do I have to be in the post-divorce world? What am I going to substitute, replace, adjust, transcend the plans that I had before when I was thinking it was going to be us and now that it's me and the kids, that is a whole different thing. Barbara Parker (05:27): Yeah, for sure. Katherine Miller (05:28): And I know that in your work you talk a lot about emotional, financial, and spiritual aftermath of divorce. Which of these areas tends to surprise people the most or that they're just not expecting? Barbara Parker (05:40): I think a lot of times when we go into it, we're thinking about the spiritual implications because you've been taught, you get married is for life and then now you're wondering, am I doing something against the will of God? Am I doing something that is going to have long-term implications on my kids? There's so many different layers of anxiety that come into play because you don't want to make a misstep. One, you don't know what you don't know, but you know that you can't continue on the way things are and not having the tools to be able to fix it. Because a lot of times it's not just your partner did this egregious thing or these series of things that fractured the relationship, but there's a part of you that shows that person or allows some of these things to happen that needs to be addressed as well. (06:36): There needs to be a healing that takes place and a lot of people haven't even considered that part. Katherine Miller (06:40): Yeah. I mean, as I'm listening to you, this sort of resonates and in my experience of working with people too, that there's a sort of judgment, like a self-judgment of, am I somehow going against God or what God would want? How did I get into this mess in the first place? And also a sense of that I need to get out. So a conflict between a person's emotional and maybe even financial or physical needs and a sense of commitment and dedication and that internal conflict can be, I think, really painful. And I think it keeps people in unhealthy relationships for a really long time sometimes. What do you think? Barbara Parker (07:22): Yeah, for sure. Whenever you're in these unhealthy relationships, a lot of times we don't realize some of these patterns actually stem from unhealed wounds of our childhood. For me, I think what I learned through this course of going to get a master's degree in psychology and all those kinds of things is your family of origin plays such a huge role in laying a template of what love looks like and it creates these blind spots that you never even were aware they were there. For example, my mother worked a lot. So it was only natural when I felt my husband was working all of these different hours, all these different times, not realizing that some of the times that he was saying he was working, he was out doing things he shouldn't have been doing. And so I gave him a little bit too much leeway, not enough checking in because as a kid, I didn't have that. (08:23): My mother didn't call and check in on me on an hourly basis, "What are you doing?" And as a teenager that was home and alone at night, I did things I probably shouldn't have done, but it laid a template that I perpetuated in my own relationship. Katherine Miller (08:39): I think that's really true. I think that there is also a money story that we get from our families of origin that can impact our relationships in terms of our expectations that we might not even be aware of. And we sort of gave a little bit of short shrift to the financial conversation and the financial conflict that you mentioned earlier. And I just wonder what you think about that or you've observed that differences in the money conversation and the people that you work with. Barbara Parker (09:07): Yeah. With my client, I've noticed that deciding whether or not to get out of the relationship, there's the money component. Do I have enough? Do I have enough save? Where am I going to live? How am I going to take care of my kids? How am I going to pay for daycare? How am I going to put them in their afterschool programs? All of these financial implications because the other partner was the primary breadwinner. Now you just lost the majority of your financial support and emotional support, that kind of thing as well. So it becomes a deterrent to ending the relationship because now there's other consequences besides just leaving a relationship and you have to prepare it. So part of preparing for that when it comes to working with my clients is figuring out how do you save? How do you prepare? Do you go back to living with your mother? (10:02): Do you go back to living with a sister that maybe the relationship isn't the best, but you know it's temporary. For some of my clients that are fleeing domestic violence situations, I have them go into a shelter or a friend's house where their partner doesn't know where they live so that way they have that secrecy and safety. So figuring out how to navigate that stuff can be quite a challenge, but when working with my clients, I can help them with figuring out a couple of different strategies to navigate that a little bit better. Katherine Miller (10:37): Just to circle back to a few minutes ago when you were talking about your own story and talking about not really knowing what you didn't know, I think that if someone is worried about the finances and worried about getting enough information in terms of what kind of support might they be entitled to, how will it get paid? Do they have to trust that someone's going to write them a check every month or is there going to be wage garnishment or something like that? Getting that information ahead of time can be really, really beneficial. I also think though that it's really hard sometimes for people to trust themselves once a relationship has started to break down, whether or not that's during the divorce, after the divorce, in the divorce decision making process, why do you think it's so difficult for people to trust themselves in the divorce process? Barbara Parker (11:21): I think it's hard to trust yourself during a divorce process because of the fact you know you had a blind spot. You got yourself into this situation and now you don't know what to do, what your next move is going to be and in that it creates uncertainty and you're always questioning, if this is your first divorce, okay, but if it's your second divorce, you're like, how do I end up here a second time? And obviously I'm doing something wrong and maybe I should have just stuck this one out. I made better decisions and yet I'm still sitting here facing another divorce. So I think the blow to your self-esteem is what causes a lot of that anxiety and depression. Katherine Miller (12:09): People post-divorce, some people thrive and some people spend a lot of years stuck in a sense of failure or some other resentment. And what would you say to our listeners? What distinguishes someone who is going to recover and thrive versus someone who stays stuck? Barbara Parker (12:30): So for example, I was working with this one client of mine, he would literally break my heart every session. He stayed stuck because he could only imagine the version of his life that he had with his partner. And he kept saying, "Well, why didn't I just get one more chance? Why didn't I get one more chance?" And if you stay stuck in that thought process of, I just want things to be the way they were, you'll never find happiness because even if you do get back with that person, things will never be how they were before because now you know a little bit more, you both have a little bit more experience and the only thing you can do is grow from it. But the people that tend to thrive are those that actually get in touch with themselves and remember, "What did you like before you met this person?" Something as simple as going to the movies, taking yourself out to eat because before you couldn't eat this so you couldn't eat that because your partner didn't like this or that, couldn't go to this kind of venue because your partner doesn't like opera. (13:33): They like rock and you hate rock. So it narrowed your ability to enjoy life and now those limits are taken off and now you actually have the opportunity to meet someone that enjoys the same things you do, but you have these blinders on that you never even engaged in the things that you once loved and now have been neglecting for years. So the people that tend to thrive is the people that start to love on that self that actually enjoyed life prior to the relationship. Katherine Miller (14:05): Do you think there's a difference, Barbara, in whether or not those people let that stuff go during the relationship during the marriage, or is it just about an ability to reconnect to their true values or to their true interests and not forget who they once were? Barbara Parker (14:23): I think there are those occasions where you can actually save a marriage. I've saved some marriages by just getting people to get back in touch with their joy that they had being an independent person, you can still enjoy the relationship with the other person, but if you resent them because you're miserable all the time, you're smothering the relationship. So you kind of have to still in your day-to-day choose yourself and enjoy the relationship with your partner and a relationship with yourself because both are important. Katherine Miller (14:54): I love that because I hate the line in the movie Jerry Maguire, "You complete me, " because no one else can complete you. You have to complete yourself and only as a complete person can you interact in a loving, healthy relationship with another complete person in order to create something that is maybe more than just two people. Some of the parts is greater than whatever I'm messing that up, but the idea that somehow or whether you sacrificed yourself for the benefit of the other person is going to be a good thing, I don't see how that could possibly be. Barbara Parker (15:31): Yeah. But as women, we are groomed to... I remember when I first got married, I was like, well, who is Barbara Foster? Who is this woman? I've never heard of her. I remember just having this whole identity crisis and when they shredded my social security card, I cried. I was like, wait, Barbara Giles just died in some way. And so men get the advantage of not changing their names in most cases. In rare cases, they do change their names, but they don't have that identity shift. They walk in as Tom Smith, they walk out as Tom Smith. And when they get a divorce, they're still Tom Smith where we may not change our name because we have kids with that last name. We may not change our previous name. For me, I didn't change it because my maiden name was hyphenated, hated that, but we have several reasons why we don't want to go back to that previous identity. (16:31): Maybe our family of origin, those bonds were not the best. So we have to decide post-divorce, who do we even want to be moving forward? Katherine Miller (16:44): Divorce dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. I love the conversation about the name because Miller is actually my first husband's name. I changed my name at the time because I was tired of spelling my maiden name and it wasn't that long, but it was always mispelled and mispronounced. And I thought, "What could be easier than Miller?" And I always tell people, "It's Katherine with a K and Miller like the beer. Everybody gets it. " And then I had this sort of weird sense like, "What is a name? What's in a name? Does the name define me? " And then I got divorced, then I got remarried and I've never changed my name partly because I have children from my first marriage, partly because it's a pain in the rear to change your name as a lawyer on the roles of lawyers and partly because I've sort of come to be Katherine Miller over this, not just professionally, but that's my name. (17:58): It has been my name longer than I had my first name and I don't want to be in this sort of place of trying to discover who a new Katherine somebody would be. And I think that is really true. What's in a name is a lot that we invest in that and who that person is and how we reflect on ourselves. So I think that's a really interesting question. Well, before we move on from the topic of resentment, why is it so hard for some people to let go of resentment, even if they ostensibly want to? Barbara Parker (18:34): Because a lot of times we go to our tribe who of course have a dog in the fight, the person telling them the information and they're hurt. And so now not only do you have your hurt, you have the hurt of your friends who love to hold grudges because they're in solidarity and they're going to remind you every couple of months what that person did to you as you're thinking about getting a divorce. And once you get a divorce, they're still there supporting you like, "Yeah, I never thought you should have been with him anyway, you're too good for him, all of these great things." And so you become entrenched in those messages instead of thinking about some things about that relationship because it lasted a decent amount of time, it wasn't all bad, it just the bad outweighed the good. And once you can actually start the process of, "Oh, well, had he not done this and I may not have gotten to this level or on was my kids. (19:35): If I hadn't have been with him, I would've never had my great kids." Just finding those small things to have gratitude about can actually not erase the bad things that happen, but erase some of that resentment because when it sits with you, it physically makes you sick. So you're not poisoning them, you're poisoning yourself with your resentment. So you kind of have to let that go just to make yourself better. Katherine Miller (20:00): Yeah. And letting it go doesn't mean you're giving the other person a pass. I think that some people feel like, well, if I let go of this resentment, then they get away with it. And I think it's the opposite is that they get to keep torturing you and they're getting away with it if you still are in that place of resentment and reactivity to the past hurt, even if it's ongoing. Barbara Parker (20:21): Well, and one analogy I like to use is if you see a pile of dung and you decide to lay down in it and you roll around in it, you now are walking around with that filth on you and they're sparkling clean and you have to still figure out how to clean yourself of all the unwanted things that you decided to pick up because you decided to lay in it. So you have to have that process of just letting go. Katherine Miller (20:50): I think that one thing that ways that people can help to separate themselves out from the other person and from the hurt is by developing boundaries and communication skills. So they're not just sucked back in to that old conflict dynamic, which is easy to do if you share children and you still have to have those kinds of communications. So Barbara Parker, what are some of the biggest boundary mistakes that people make during and after divorce? Barbara Parker (21:14): That drunk dialing that happens, either you're on the receiving end or you're on the calling in or the kids have done something and now this becomes a reason to start arguing with each other over past hurts. So dredging up the past, making sure that when you're having a conflict about the children that it's about the children and that moment, that thing that happened, no dredging up old stuff, stay on topic. When you are experiencing name-calling or being torn down, addressing it immediately, explaining, "I will not allow you to talk to me this way, there's a privilege for talking to me and if you cannot talk to me with respect, I'm going to discontinue the call and hang up the call." And that is a hard thing for some people to do because that person, when you hang up on them, they call you right back to argue with you more and you answer again. (22:09): You have to set the rules of engagement and follow them yourself Katherine Miller (22:14): And you have to understand the other person, you're never going to convince them you're right. So just accept that. The communications are need to know and never hit send when your heart rate is raised. Barbara Parker (22:27): I like that. Katherine Miller (22:30): Hit send when you've had a chance to reread it again if you're angry or hurt or sad or anxious because you're not going to agree with them, they're not going to agree with you that obviously those days are passed and you don't have to. Barbara Parker (22:41): That's one of the things about when you are ending your relationship, that wanting to protect the other partner's feelings, that is gone. And now there's no holds barred, tongue is a lot looser, the words are a lot sharper and literally just slicing at each other is not helpful at all. There's nothing productive that's going to come from those conversations. Katherine Miller (23:05): 100%. All right, a lot of times people going through divorce or just after divorce are worried about dating somebody again someday. And lots of times when I'm dealing with my clients and I say, "Listen, when the time comes that you want to remarry, please call me about a prenup so we can talk that through." And then they always say to me, "That's never going to happen. I'm not even dating." And then almost inevitably two years later, three years later, they call, they laugh and they go, "Well, Katherine, you know how I was never going to date again?" And they laugh. And I'm like, yes, I knew the time was going to come. But as you pointed out earlier, those relationships are not always healthy and successful. So what do you think that people need to understand about themselves before they're ready for a healthy new relationship, not just any new relationship? Barbara Parker (23:55): I think you have to understand where you are emotionally and especially in the first couple of months of getting divorced, you're so raw. It's just like a raw wound. And I know for people who initiate the divorce, that wound has started that process of healing sometimes two years because they've gotten to that grief process a little bit faster. But for the person who received the papers, it didn't start until that day. And so they get a little dismayed by how quickly their other partner has gotten over it and dating and now they're remarried and they're like, "Well, why am I still stuck?" Well, you're in a different part of the grief process than the other person, but when you're trying to heal your heart, you have to figure out what is it that I enjoy? Are you pouring into yourself? Are you taking care of yourself like you used to? (24:52): Are you investing in yourself in ways where you're spending time with family and friends or are you just simply isolated? Sometimes having friends as a buffer, if you have good relationships with those people, then it makes it where they'll give you good feedback about, is this person a good person for you? Because they're always quick to tell you, well, I never liked that person after the fact, but what if we get them to weigh in a little bit earlier? And so spending time with them doing things that you enjoy, going places that you enjoy, basically living your life and inviting them on the journey and then not just dating one person, date multiple people, figure out who's the best fit for you. Once you know who's the best fit for you and who you enjoy spending your time with the most, then things become a little bit clearer because you have options. (25:45): If you pick someone who you only dated this one person, this first person that you ever dated, then they could be worse than the first person, but you don't have anything to compare them to know you could have done better. Katherine Miller (25:58): I think that's great advice. All right, Barbara, we're almost out of time, but there's two questions I always like to ask toward the end of the show and the first one of those is that I call the reframe. So what is one thing that people believe about divorce that actually keeps them stuck and how would you encourage them to think about it differently? Barbara Parker (26:14): One thing is I'll never love again, I think is what people tend to stay stuck in, thinking that because they had kids or I have two kids, so now I'm unlovable because who's going to want me with two kids, blah, blah, blah. Once you realize that there's great people out there who have been hoping and waiting to meet you and you've denied them that process because you had legal limitations and just were not emotionally available for that process, now you're available and you're able to meet them where they are and help them heal their heart because they haven't met you yet. So just opening your eyes to the things that you think are limitations are actually benefits to someone else. Katherine Miller (26:58): I love that. So looking back at the people you've worked with, what surprised you most about how people rebuild after divorce? Barbara Parker (27:05): One of my clients rebuilt his life, the one I was speaking about actually before, to where his light shines, he smiled. This is a gentleman who was suicidal. Every day I worried about him and now looking at him years post working with me, he is now Buddhist. He has a dog that he loves. He couldn't even imagine loving another dog. He's going to travel the world. He has a woman that he loves that loves him and he is thriving. Being around those kinds of clients to see that even though they were so entrenched and the darkness of being separated from their partner, that that joy is waiting and that sometimes it doesn't come for a few years, but just working with the right person and plants those seeds to help them see that tree is willing to grow and they're going to experience that love and just instilling hope in people is what it turns into. (28:07): It's just amazing because I would not have imagined all of these great things for him. He has these beautiful tattoos now that he was afraid of getting because she didn't like tattoos. His whole life is just completely transformed and he's courageous and artistic and has his own business. It's like he is thriving. I'm so proud of him. Katherine Miller (28:30): That's amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that. And Barbara Parker, thank you so much for being my guest on Divorce Dialogues. It's been a pleasure. Barbara Parker (28:35): Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks, Katherine. Katherine Miller (28:42): I have a few more thoughts about my conversation with Barbara Parker. I've really been thinking about what she said about reconnecting with yourself and finding yourself again and how people, often women, but not always women, men do this too, lose their own identity in the relationship and the marriage and the partnership and sacrifice things that are really important to them, both in terms of activities that you might love, things you might love to do or places you like to go or the way that you are with yourself that feels good in service of the other person, in service of that relationship. And my experience personally as well as professionally is that that just doesn't really work over time. And while in the moment we think we're doing the right thing or we're doing the thing to go along to get along or we are honoring our partner, honoring the relationship, yeah, that's fine a time or two. (29:48): That's fine in some circumstances, but over time, over the course of years, decades maybe even, it's not fine because you're ultimately, definitely giving yourself up. And when you give yourself up, actually your relationship is likely to suffer. And I think that that's counterintuitive. We don't necessarily think, well, if I'm sacrificing myself for the other person, that's bad for a relationship. But in my experience it is that people come apart. There's no two live individuals to interact and to partner together. It just becomes one person who's dominating the conversation and that one person may actually and often is actually disappointed that the partner that they fell in love with, the partner that they chose to live with, the partner that they married is no longer that person. And so I actually think that getting some help with that individual counseling and couples counseling before that gets to be a place of an old path that you just walk down it every single time, walk down it, walk down it, walk down it and learn to walk more as equals down the path of partnership. (31:04): Thanks for listening. If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.