Latest / The You Project / #1864 Some Sanity In The Food Madness - Simon Hill

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#1864 Some Sanity In The Food Madness - Simon Hill · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installing the show.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: It's The Bloody Youth Project. Of course it is Craig
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Anthony Harper Simon. What's your middle name?
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Son, John or you can call me Johnny if you want.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: It's actually John Simon is Johnny Cito. So some of
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: my friends call me.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Really did you used to get did your mum or
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: dad give you the whole Simon? John Hill get in
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: here now when you're in trouble kind of vibe?
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Absolutely?
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Were you? Were you difficult? Were you a problem child?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: I was?
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I was the younger, the younger child and the youngest
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: have an older brother. And yes, fair to say, I
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: got up to my fair share of trouble at school.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Dad Dad was called up to school quite a lot
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: in high school. I remember once Craig I.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: At our school.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I went to school out on Altham So also Fellow
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Melbourne in and I was quite up genes. I remember
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: we had like some landscape gardeners that would work on
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: our on the school kind of length property and take
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: care of the gardens and mow the lawns and the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: football level and all that stuff. Did a great job
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: and they left the golf buggy that they used one
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: day with the keys in it. And I took that
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: golf buggy, who drove it on the road with like
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: five or six friends on the back and hanging off
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: the side of it down to research shops, which were
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: like the closest shops to get fish and chips. And
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: unfortunately we drove past one of our teachers on the
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: way down, so that didn't end so well.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: I thought you were going to tell me you drove
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: past a cop car on the way back to the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: school or something, But yeah, well what year was that, mate?
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Give your take?
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: Gosh, two thousand and one.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you could probably do that. You know, that's like
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: quarter of a century ago. Bro, can you leave a
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: quarter of a century ago? You did that.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Easy? It's crazy. I don't feel like.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I don't want to tell you you're old, but I
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: just out of the bag. Hey, So thank you for
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: doing this. I appreciate you. I was made aware of you.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know how it wasn't how I didn't. I mean,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: I've known about you for about six months. I don't
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: know how I didn't discover you before that. But and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying this insincerely, folks, if you don't follow Simon,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: follow him. His stuff is great, He's great. What I
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: love about him is he's really objective, he's really well
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: thought through. He's he's not hysterical, he's not pushing an agenda,
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: he's not selling shit. And I love the way that
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: you communicate, and I love the capacity that you have
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: to be able to disseminate what can be complicated ship
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: in a user friendly way. So is that I mean,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: is that that's obviously how do I share?
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: This can be you know, because I should change my
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I should change my buyo, or I should change the
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: the about about us page. And I think I might
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: steal that from you, because honestly, I grew up my
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: dad's a professor of physiology, and so you can imagine
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: what you know when I'm five six, seven eight and
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: at the dinner table and he's talking like an academic, right,
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I had to very quickly learn to know ask the stupid,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: dumb questions to get him to kind of make it
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: more accessible, because it's like another language that these guys speak.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Whether you're at a conference or you're reading the peer
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: review studies. That is a giant arms length away from
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the everyday person who really needs that information. So yeah,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: that's I've kind of taken I guess, those skills that
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I learned at the dinner table and use those today
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: to sit down with people like my dad, other professors
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: and get them to kind of translate or share their
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: often thirty forty years of research in a more accessible,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: more palatable way so that we can myself included, can
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: make sense of it.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: As I mean, it's literally like I said to you
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: before we started recording, like I'm I'm not a genius
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: at all, and I'm a procademic. And when I started
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: doing like I finished my last degree a long time ago,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: and then when I started my PhD, and I'm at
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: what's called Brain Park, the Neuroscience neurocyclab of Monash University
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: in Melbourne, and I'm sitting amongst all these fucking twenty
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: three year old genie I like a fucking wombat in
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: a black T shirt. I'm trying to figure out. And
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: then we're having meetings where everybody gets together and talks
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: about their project, in other words, their PhD, like what
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: they're doing in their research, and I literally, for a
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: year didn't understand what anyone was talking about. I had
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: to keep going, what does that mean? What does that mean?
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: What's that word? Like, I'm writing stuff that not a
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: year but a rock solid six months. And I think
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: sometimes with academia and research for many people, and it's
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: not good or bad, and it's not a it's not
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: a slight on anyone's intelligence, but it's like you're walking
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: into a room where everyone's literally speaking a different language.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: It's like, I'm you know, like I walk into room
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: and everyone in the room speaks Russian except me. Well,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: I know I'm not stupid, and I know that they're
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: not necessarily smarter than me, but I don't speak Russian,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: so I'm at a massive disadvantage. And everything they're telling
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: me is to them, it's clear and it makes sense,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: and the research is right and it's logical and it's
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: even relevant to me. But I'm like, that's awesome, but
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: I don't fucking speak Russian. And that's what it's like sometimes,
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: that chasm between research and information that's relevant for so
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: many people. And that's why I think your stuff is
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: good is great, because that's you're almost like which I
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: try and be too, but you're kind of a conduit
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: between these two disparate sometimes disparate worlds.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my guiding light, which I feel in
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: the brief time that i've I've got to learn a
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: little bit more about you today is curiosity. And I
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: think you share that, and it's it's frustrating. It's frustrating
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: when you don't understand something, and it can be scary
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: to kind of to ask the quote unquote dumb question.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: But I very much since I was little and to
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: this date, I'm not one to sit back if I
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: have a question and it's it's it's silly, it's.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: Dumb, and I could look stupid.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I'm still gonna ask it because curiosity is really what's
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: driving everything I do, and it has to be driving
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: what you do to put out in one episode every
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: single day.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: And I think you said two thousand episodes so.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Far, I have to imagine curiosity is curiosity is at
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: the center of that.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I did it. I did a podcast probably
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: two or three years ago now with a guy from
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: the States called Professor Amic Goswami, and at the time
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: he was eighty four and he's like a super duper
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: professional professor of theoretical physics and quantum theory, and mud
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: he like all this, and I'm I started talking to him, Simon,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I'm five minutes in and I'm thinking, I'm fucked. I
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: do not have I'm running out of shit to ask him,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: and I'm because I'm not smart enough to be in
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: this room. And I just stopped and I went and
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: he was so beautiful. He was like this wise spiritual,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: it's like the insection of spirituality and research and academia.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: And I said to him, professor, can I tell you something?
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: And he goes, yes, of course, And I'm not smart
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: enough to be in this chat. And then he just
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: laughed and he went, oh, I think you're quite smart.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: And then he went I went, oh, I don't know
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: about that, but you know, for me, it's like that, yeah,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I've I'd rather just go I need to kind of
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: own up a little bit because I'm not sure what
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I'm asked. I don't know. I don't even know what
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: to ask you in this moment to make it a
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: good listening experience for the thousands of people that rock
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: up to listen to this every day. And he was
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: so good, he was so and it ended up being
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: a really good chat. But I just had that moment
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: of terror where I'm I'm thinking, I don't know how
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: to make this okay.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Right, But it sounds like I mean for you to
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: say that was quite vulnerable. So it took it took
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: a lot of It took a lot of vulnerability for
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: you to kind of put your hand up.
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: And say, I'm not sure what to ask you.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: But as is often the case, if we are vulnerable
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: and willing to kind of let down the wall, good
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: things can happen. So I'm glad that you had that
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: experience and he didn't. He didn't just say okay, let's
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: end the podcast.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: That would have been That would have been hurtful. That
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: would have been hurtful. All right, So let's talk a
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: bit about you and your stuff. So I told you
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: before you know, we went live, that I started really
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: in the physical space ex sized physiology and training people
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and all of that. And I still love that and
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: I still help a few people out in that space.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: But you know, I got to the point with me
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: where I went, you know, bodies are interesting, but minds
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: for me, minds and brains are more interesting. And so
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: I'm going to open that door now. And did you
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: start in physio? Am I right with that. You started
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: as a physiotherapist.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I went.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I went straight into physiotherapy Latrobe University and so I
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: did my under undergraduate there and then went to private practice.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: So I was working at you pran sports medicine center.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Marlven wrote, Yeah, so I worked there. I was fortunate
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: enough to get a job straight straight out of university
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: there and worked there. And then I was working with
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Coburg Tiger in the Richmond Football Club and so working
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: with elite athletes. And that was the time actually when
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Ben Cousins had come back from West Coast and was
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: playing playing with Richmond. He was playing quite a bit
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: of football with Koburg Tigers, so I remember treating him
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and so I was in that physiotherapy space. And then
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: you know, some years later we ended up going back
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: to university as you know, and I went to Degan University.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: That's where did my masters and nutrition mm hmm, I was.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: We were probably at similar time. I worked at Port
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Melbourne for a few years also in the NFL, and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: then before that at the Saints and the AFL for
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: about four years. In those it's it's it's an interesting environment.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: That system isn't.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: It mm hmm, yeah it is.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I mean I loved that environment because I was playing
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: football in the Eastern Football League and school and I
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: was captain of our school football team.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: So I took footy really seriously.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: And when I finished high school two thousand and four,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: I knew that I wasn't going to take football any
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: any further, and so physiotherapy for me was a way
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: to stay involved in football, and I knew it was
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: like going straight into first year. I knew I was
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: going to go down the path of kind of sports
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: physiotherapy and then I ultimately try and work with footballers
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: in the AFL.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: So what what was the prompt to move away from
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: physio and into nutrition was did something happen or it
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: was just an evolution.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: It was an evolution.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I had a huge amount of curiosity for what we
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: eat and the effect that it has on our health
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: and for the kind of seed that was planted for me.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Went back to when I was fifteen years old. So
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: my dad and I were out in the Yarra Valley
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: and to go out on the weekends with my brother
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: and my dad and I and on this Sunday was
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: just my dad and I and we were going around
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: and jumping from small winery to small winery, and I
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: was like, I was fifteen, fourteen, fifteen, and on this afternoon,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: beautiful afternoon, we're driving back. My dad lived in King
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: Lake at the time, and he started getting chest pain
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: and I could tell that he was uncomfortable, and he
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: kind of played it down, and we got back to
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: his house in King Lake and we cooked dinner and
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: I checked in on him. He seemed to think that
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: it was dissipating, not as much pain as before, and
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: we had.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: Dinner and then I went to bed, thinking nothing of it.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: But I awoke in the early hours of the night
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: to loud noises in the kitchen and went out and
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: he was having a full blown heart attack. And so
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: he was like he was basically making his way to
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: the phone call he had dial triples zero, and I
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: was the one that spoke to the paramedics and detailed
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: what was happening. And because we were in King Lake,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: which at the time, and I'm sure now it's been developed,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: so it's like right up through Whittlesea's probably lots lots
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: of neighborhoods and homes. But back then you drive from
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: kind of r MIT in Bundura up to King Lake.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: There was not a lot in between. It was mostly
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: just farms, you know. South Brange was all farms. And
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: so they said, look, you're a long way from the
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: nearest hospital. We're sending a helicopter, and they sent a
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: helicopter to pick up my dad and I went by
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: road in the ambulance trailing them, and by that time
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: my mum and brother because my parents were divorced when
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I was younger, they made their way over and to
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the hospital and so we had this long wait to
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: find out like what's happening, and you know, ultimately the
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: cardiologists came out and said, your dad's had a huge
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: heart attack and we've we've managed to save these life.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: But his life will look a little different from now on,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: and he'll be on medications. And you guys, are you know,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: fifteen and seventeen or eighteen, my brother, you're going to
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: need to really keep a close eye on your cardiovascular
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: health because cardiovasca disease runs in families, which is all true.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And at the time we were just grateful that dad
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: was alive. Yeah, of course, but in the aftermath of that,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: my brother and I just kind of always had this
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: lingering idea that our heart disease runs in our family. So,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: you know, Dad's had a hard to take at forty one,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: and my dad didn't look like My dad wasn't obese,
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: he wasn't eating McDonald's and.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: All fast food.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: He was living the typical Australian lifestyle and was representative
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: of a kind of young Australian dad who yeah, was
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: working hard to make enough money to provide for his family,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: probably a little overstressed. He would exercise, you know, three
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: times a week, and his diet was, you know, just
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: average austrained diet, but not a whole lot of fast food.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: And so we didn't and he wasn't on any medications,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: had no diagnoses, so we didn't kind of see this coming.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: So it was that at this stage, it's forty one.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Wow, didude, that's so stupidly young.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: It's so young, right, Yeah, Like I'm nearly forty one now,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: so I'm I'm going through this weird phase now where
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I'm like, holy shit, Like I'm basically at the age
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: of when my dad had this heart.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: Attack, and.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: As I said, he wasn't on like cholesterol medications or
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: blood pressure medications or blood glucose medications. He was on
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: zero prescription medications, so from the outside he kind of
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: had there was no sign of this coming.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: And so yeah, there was this limiting We had this limiting.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Belief, my brother and I that we were destined to develop,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: you know, cardiovascuar disease and probably had some dodgy genes.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't until I got to my sort of
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: mid to late twenties when I really got a little
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: bit more interested in nutrition. And at that stage I
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: started to I was reading the literature, and I'd had
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: some training of how to read the literature in my
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: undergraduate but I can tell you it was nowhere near
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: specific enough to make sense of nutrition science. And so
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: I was reading, and I was confused and going and
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: reading like an article from a supposed reputable source and
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: then seeing another article and they seem very contradictory. And
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I was in the position that I think a lot
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: of people listening are probably in and continue to be in,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: especially with social media how that's evolved. Now it's scroll
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: and then scroll up, and you're exposed to contradictory things,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: you know, within seconds. So I was like, I need
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: to understand how to read the primary literature here, and
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: that was the curiosity piece. So I went back and
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: applied to Deacon. Thankfully they let me in and I
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: did my master degree there, and my sole goal was
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I want to understand how to read this literature so
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: I can actually understand how to eat to reduce my
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: risk of cardiovascular disease. And more and more I got
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: into it, and then you know, started seeing patients speaking
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: to people in my community.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: I had the urge.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: To start communicating, you know, through my podcast, which is
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: my primary kind of channel that I do that through now,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: because there is so much misinformation and because it's so
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: it seems the research seems like it's all over the place.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: And I understand that it seems like there's all sorts
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: of because everyone can say study show, right, So if
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Bob saying study show, and Mark saying study show, and
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Sandra's saying study show, but they're all saying different things, well,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: clearly the research is just confused.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: But it's that's not actually the case. It's that.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Contact matters, and so sure you can go and find
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: any study to kind of show anything, but what's often
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: met like left out of these conversations is the important context,
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: and when you do appreciate the context of the science, you.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Actually see that you know, of course, we.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Don't know everything. There's fucking there's so much stuff for
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: us to learn. I know that, like there are I
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: have so many blind spots. But there is so much
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: within the body of nutrition science research that has been
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: conducted for now, you know, one hundred plus years that.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: We can we can use to be fairly.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Confident about a large part, like a large part of
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the dietary pattern that we eat and ways in which
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: we can eat to reduce chronic disease. We don't know everything,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: but we do understand the big picture. And I think
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: that when people go on social media, particularly today, they they're.
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: Left with a different feeling.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: They're left with that, you know, nutrition science is just
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: all over the place, and then they end up probably
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: just throwing their arms up in the air and saying,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: it's your status quo.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing because
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: no one can agree.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: And I think that's the beauty of your work, right,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: It's like you're kind of opening doors and I love.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: What I love about you is you have an ability
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: to look at what somebody else has put up, but
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: not really be a prick about it. I like that
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: where you can go So this guy said this, and
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: here he is saying this, and then now here he
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: is saying this. So these things clearly, you know, this
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: suited him in this video, and this suits him in
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: this video, and he's saying things which are diametrically opposite
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: or opposed. You know, but you're not calling anyone an
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: idiot or a moron, and you're literally just presenting information.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And I like that and that's refreshing versus I don't
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: often do this, but I'm going to say one name
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: that you would know, and I think this guy's smart.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: But Lane Norton obviously you know who that guy is
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: or no, yeah, yeah, Like I sometimes I'm like, dude,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: I love this, but do you have to call everyone
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: an idiot or a moron? It makes me like you
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: less Just just like you're smart. You've got a PhD
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: in nutrition, you're smart, and you don't need all the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: theatrics and the denner grading of everybody who doesn't think
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: like you for me. And I know he has a
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: lot of followers, but and maybe I'd have more followers
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: if I did more of that. I don't know, but
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I don't care. I'd rather not do it.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean fundamentally, it's if my personality is
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: not aligned to having like a malicious personal approach to
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: these sorts of things. I'm interested in the way that
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: the person's thinking. But you know, I do know Lane.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I've done videos on Lane, I've had Lane on my show,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: so we have an interesting relationship.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: But Lane seeing is rage. His thing is rage and rage.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: It does create clicks and engagement and curiosity because he's
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: this crazy, you know, very outgoing scientist that is not
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: holding back, and that's his style. My my approach is,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: I'm far more interested in just looking at how this
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: person is thinking.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: And like you said, if I can show people how.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: This person is being logically inconsistent, I think that's far
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: more valuable than saying, you know, this guy's a dickhead
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: and just like having some ad hominem attack, because then
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I think you can immediately discredit my argument the moment
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I attack them as a person. So I do I
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: actually do. It's conscious. I consciously try to make sure
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying is not a personal attack, and I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: think very deeply about the way that that person is thinking.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: And there's a whole lot of things I'm looking for,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: like certain types of fallacies, you know.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: One of the big ones is.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Like the naturalistic fallacy that if something is natural, therefore
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: it must be good. But you can point out examples
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: like heavy metals are natural, yeah, but if mercury poisoning
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: is that good? No, Like we can quickly realize that
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: these are these are fallacies or logical inconsistencies, like you say,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: where on one day someone points to an animal study
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: because the rat study is supporting their position, but then
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: a week later they they discredit animal studies and say that,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: you know, animal studies don't translate to humans. And it's like, well,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: how can you have that position?
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: And I think there are things in you know, not
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: just in science but in life which are kind of
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: generally in the space of true or helpful, but not
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: always you know. And it's like, so for me as
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: an excise scientist, when people like this kind of what's
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: the best way, too, right, and then fill in the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: blank build strength, improve flexibility, range, movement, power, speed, muscular endurance,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: aerobic endurance or whatever, or what's the best way to
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: eat or what's the best whatever, what's the best supplement,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: and so apart from the fact that that's not a
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: great question, but you would then go, well, for who,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: because what's going to be optimal in terms of you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: nutrition and recovery and exercise and all these various stimuli.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: All these things that I'm going to do to my
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: body that might work great for me would be a
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: fucking train wreck for Simon because Simon ain't me and
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I ain't him, and so you know that that's when
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to help people to understand that. And
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I've had a version of this conversation many times. But like,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: for example, I've got a bunch of motorbikes. I love
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: riding motorbikes. For me, it's actually fun and it produces
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: like a good biochemical state in my body, and for
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: me it's healthy. But for somebody else it produces the
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: opposite response. It's actually doing something bad, you know. And
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: it's even down to you know, the music that I
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: listen to might create a positive internal state for me,
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: you know, on a psychological, emotional, and physiological level, but
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the same music for someone else will create the opposite response,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: right and so it's not like is this music good
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: or bad? Is this is this approach to nutrition good
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: or bad? Is this workout good or bad? But rather
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: how does your body respond to that particular thing? And
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: I think for me, I'm really excited to try and
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: help people to try and understand their own body and
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the way that it acts and reacts around all these
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: different variables and go, well, you don't need to be
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: a scientist to do something scientific, So why don't you
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: leave everything else the same and for the next two
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: weeks do X unless it's something ridiculous, but try that.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Do two weeks of X, don't change anything else. See
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: what happens. Your body will tell you. You know, we
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: can do that, right right?
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Think we're aligned in the way that we think about that.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: So the way that I look at at least from
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: nutrition and to come to sort of come back to
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: your point about context, because you said for who, because
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: context is always overlooked and in nutrition it's it's for who.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: So like, like you said, what's their goal? So like,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: if you're talking about protein or who are you talking about?
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: What does their goal are?
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: They?
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Are they an athlete that a strength athlete or are
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: they a fifty five year old woman, Like, who are
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: you talking about? And then in nutrition, if we're talking
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: about anything, whether it's a nutrient or if we're talking
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: about a food like eggs or red meat or fish
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: or beans.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: Well, what dose are you talking about? How much are
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: we talking about?
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: And then also in nutrition it's it's it's not like
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: you can't have a placebo because when so when when
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: you make a food choice, it's usually coming at the
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: cost of another food choice. There's an opportunity cost, so
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: you have to consider compared to what. Okay, if I'm
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: going to eat two hundred calories of beans, is that
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: replacing ultra processed food or is that replacing red meat?
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: And now you start to see like this is why
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: the research can be very confusing, because even at a
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: neutrienter of a food level, you have to be considering
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: for who does compared to what?
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Every time.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Or else you can find what seemed to be very
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: conflicting studies, conflicting findings. But to your point about personalization,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: So I think one thing that I would put forward
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: is that I think I totally agree that people should
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: be able to play around and see what works best
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: for them, and we might need to find what works
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: best for them, Like what is that?
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: What are they measuring? Is it just the way they feel?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Or are they measuring things like in your area, they're
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: probably measuring strength or speed or something.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: Like that as well.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: But I do think that sometimes people can hear that
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: message and think, oh, right, we're all just so different.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: There's no general principles. I think there are general principles,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: like general heuristics that science has to have been tested
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: and we understand that they work most of the time.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: And then from there you personalize so understanding that that
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: studies are really telling us the average or typical response.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: And you can imagine like a bell curve. Okay, we
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: all fall somewhere on the Bell curve, right, but we're
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: not average. I mean we could be, but we're probably
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: not average right at the middle of the Bell curve.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: We could be somewhere along there. So where our own experience,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: what we get from making some dietary change or some
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: exercise change may not be represented in the average from
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: a clinical study. Does that make sense to you, Yeah,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So what we're putting forward at a public health recommendation
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: is based on the average. So then I think that
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: those are generally good guidelines, and from their people personalize
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: and find a way that's working best for them, and
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: then that brings us to what is working best, like,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: how do you actually define that or measure it at
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: an individual level?
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: I love it. I've been taking a slight left turn.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: But when I was when I was a kid, I
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: was morbidly obese. Right, So I was the fattest kid
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: in my school and my name at school was Jumbo. Right,
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: this is pretty political correctness. So as I sit here today,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I'm eighty one or eighty two kilos, and back then
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I was around ninety ninety one ninety two when I
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: was fourteen years old, and about five inches shorter, right,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: so I was a big kid and all of this stuff. Anyway,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: I have this without boring you and my listeners for
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the million at the time. But this, you know, this
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: moment in time, something happened wasn't horrendous, but it was
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: just like for me psychologically, emotionally and sociologically pretty uncomfortable,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: and I just went fuck it, like a switch flicked.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: And that's when and then I lost a whole lot
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: of weight in a relatively short time. And around that
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: was apart from the weight loss and all those good things.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: And you know, I was fitter, and I was healthier,
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: and I was more aware, but mentally, emotionally and socially,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: like my world changed quite dramatically. And so I've always
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: been interested in the psychology for one of a better term,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: the psychology of getting in shape right, and understanding the
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: role that my mind plays in physiology and whether that's
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: nutrition or sleep or stress, anxiety or training or adaptation,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: physical you know, strength, power, all those things, but trying
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: to understand my mind around all of this. And so
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I always had this fucking tempestuous relationship with food, right,
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: because for me, food was like because I've never smoked,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: never drunk never, I've never been drunk, I've never had
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: a beer, I've never been high, right, so whatever that
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: means good, bad, boring. But for me, like food was
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: like my drug. I would eat food all the time
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: that I didn't need because it made me feel fucking
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: great in the moment. You know, do you think that
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: apart from the knowledge of this is this is what
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: food is about? Or here's some information on micros and
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: macros and intimate and fasting and all of these other
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: things that we explore. Do you ever open the door
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: on what I call our relationship with food, like the sociology, psychology,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: and emotion that kind of intersects with all of that
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: and in many ways for many of us, dictates what
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: we do and how we do it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, what you were talking about, I think is
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: a huge reason why there's so much quote unquote yo
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: yo dieting or way. You know, diets don't don't often
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: work long term, and you see that in the research
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: when you look at weight loss, you see, you know,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: we're actually pretty good at losing weight in the first
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: three or six months we are, and there's it's probably
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: some short term willpower, right, But then what you tend
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: to see is that you know, by two years, most
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: of that weight has come back on off and often
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: more so. I you you just mentioned there that it
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: was like a switch flicked, So I'm interested, like, what
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: have you gone back and double clicked on that and
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: thought about what was that switch? What was what was
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: underlying that that led to sustainable changes to the way
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: that you were eating.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So for me, it was uh, embarrassment, humiliation, I guess,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: a moment of self awareness and like I just and no,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: by the way, it was a hundred me. I didn't
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: get bullied or anything, but I just had this moment
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: in time at the year eight swimming sports where like
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I had a bit of a wake up call. But
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: for me, that that very like I remember feeling. I
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: had this feeling that was and I know it's like
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: it's disproportionate when you look in the context of life
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: in the world and people with real problems which I
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: didn't have. But to me at that as that fourteen
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: year old fat kid, that was so fucking painful that
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I just went, this is never happening again. I'm never
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: doing this again. I'm never going to have this experience again.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Like I associated more pain with staying in it than
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: getting out of it. So whatever I need to do
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: to not be this to not be. And for me, honestly,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: it was more about aesthetics at that stage, because I
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: just to me anyway, I looked fucking hideous. And I
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: know people go, oh, no, don't say it, but that's
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: how I felt, right. So of course, the you know,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the physiological benefits were great, but I was actually driven
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: more by self esteem and ego or low self esteem
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: and and just wanting to be liked and loved and
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: valued and accepted, and to look not like I looked,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: so that I'd be more normal. So that was for me.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: It was like it was very much these internal emotional
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: and psychological drivers.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the the pain of the embarrassment outweighed the
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: instantaneous comfort that you were getting from eating. Do you
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: do you recall go back further? Do you recall when
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: you started to gain weight? How old you were?
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was probably about seven or eight, and I
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: just yeah, I just I just ate everything that wasn't
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: nailed down.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: And why do you think? Why do you think that
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: was that something that you've gone back and looked at.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: That's a good question, doctor to fil So, you told
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: me at the beginning, just to be clear, grag you said, mate,
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: feel free to ask me any questions everyone.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I totally gave him, And in fact I liked that that.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I not that anyone needs to know about me, but
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: it's I did say to Simon, I said, everyone, let's
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: have a conversation. It doesn't need to be his question.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Here's an answer for an hour. No, but I think
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: they are good questions. Look, I really don't know, but
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: I think that, like, I went to something like nine
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: schools and my parents we moved a lot. I was
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: an only kid. I'm still an only kid. I was
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: by myself a lot. My parents were amazing, but they worked,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: so I would get home from school at three thirty
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: or four and they would get home at six thirty
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: or seven or whatever. So I spent a lot of
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: time alone, and I was probably a little bit socially
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: disconnected and isolated, especially in the younger years kind of
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: you know, seven through ten, eleven, twelve, and I you know,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: I just I just fed myself and it's like, you know,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: that little dopamine kind of moment was pretty good, and
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: I'd feel.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Sure you were maybe getting some comfort, some comfort from
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: those foods in the moment.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just I mean the simplest of answers is
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I felt good doing that. So I did that, you know,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and it's yeah, but I that's why for me, when
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about weight loss for a body or body
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: composition or changing you know, changing how we look feel
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: functional that with I always say to people, yeah, I'm
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: excise scientists, but I'm also talking to you experientially and
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: not just with the thousands of people that I've trained,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: but also as a person who is not genetically gifted,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: does not have still does not have massive self esteem,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: you know, for me to be you know, for me
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: to be at sixty one with not great genetics and
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: pretty fit and pretty strong and pretty lean. For me,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: it's and I've created a you know, an operating system
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: that's automatic. So there's not a lot of willpower or
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: sacrifice or discipline. But it's taken forever to be able
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: to figure out how to make this thing that I
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: live in work really well, you know, And I think
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: that's one of the challenges is which we you know,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: kind of talking about a minute ago, But how do
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I build a you know, an automatic kind of operating
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: system that that just works for my body? Like, what's
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: the thing that I do sometimes when I'm in the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: middle of inspiration or motivation or whatever that actually just
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: needs to be in all the time, non negotiable, you know.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: So this is and when I do this thing, I
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: don't need a round of applause or a trophy or
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: an accolade. No, this is just me doing the thing
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: that I need to do. So, yeah, it's that that's
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: what it's been for me. Anyway. For me, staying in
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: shape is the first book I wrote was about the
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: psychology of getting in shape, and I didn't even really
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: understand fully what I was writing about, but I knew
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that for me it was it was almost a psychological
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: emotional process with a physical outcome. Even though people would
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: think changing your body is all about your body, for me,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: not really.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: No, there's a there's a huge I mean, I think
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: I think anyone listening to this will will appreciate how
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: complex this is, right, because everyone has their own story,
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: and people are really struggling out there. People are really
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: really struggling. And sure, we live in an environment where
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: a food environment, where there is an abundance of indulgent
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: foods that hijack the reward centers of our brain. They
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: give us a reward that is unlike anything our ancestors
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: would have had, right, and.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: We don't have to work for it. We don't have
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: to work for it.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: And so if you, I mean, this is a bit,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: this takes us to a whole another question. But you
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: mentioned the word willpower. Yeah, And a question that I
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: often get is do we lack willpower? Is that why
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: we're unhealthy? Is that why so many people are unhealthy,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: and I don't know if I don't think I don't
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: think it is a lack of willpower.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: You know, if you if you could take let's say
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: you take.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: One of the healthiest populations in the world, like the
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: elders in Japan or some of there, like some of
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: the Greeks.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I don't think that they're healthier because they have fundamentally
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: that these are people that have more willpower. I think
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: they're healthier because they live in an environment that is
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: conducive to the healthy choice they're probably they live in
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: an environment that is arguably better for mental health, psychological wellbeing.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: They live in an environment.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: That's better for physical activity, that doesn't have the same
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: amount of century lifestyle that we have, and they live
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: in an environment where the convenient and cheap food choice
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: is also the healthy food choice, whereas we live in
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: an environment where people are under an enormous amount of stress.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: So there's you know, mental health pandemic, there is you know,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: sky high rates of loneliness and isolation. And then on
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: top of that, so you take these people who who
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: do not have optimal mental health and put them in
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: an environment where they're tempted by all of these very
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: high calorie dense foods that are ultra processed and contain
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: all sorts of additives that, as I said, hijack these
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: reward systems, and it's a recipe for chronic disease. And
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: so to unravel that, I agree with you. I think
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: to unravel that, A we have to think about the
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: way our society is set up to foster better mental
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: health from early age, from early age, and hand in hand,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: you have to change the way society is set up
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: to reduce the century lifestyle that we're seeing, and to
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: change the food environment. Simply asking people to make the
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: healthy food choice. In a food environment like we live in,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: it's hard, right. There is a small percentage of people
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: that can develop the willpower to do that, no doubt
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: about it. You can look around, you can find examples,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: but most people can't. And so there has to be
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: sure there has to be effort at the individual level.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: But in order to really.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Tackle what we're talking about here, there has to be
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: some very big, community wide, government led shifts as well.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. What interests me too is, like you know,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: with will power, self control, discipline, inspiration, motivation, all of
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: those variables, right, it's we kind of hot hold those
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: in high regard sometimes and I always say to people, look,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: when you're inspired and motivated, ride that wave to the beach. Right,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: that's great. But you know, I often get introduced corporately
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: as a motivational speaker, which I fucking hate. But anyway,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: if it gets me work, if it gets me gigs,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: keep doing it. Right. But people are surprised when I
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: say motivation is motivation is different things too, But in
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the context of this chat, we're talking about that emotional,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: heightened inspired state of motivation. You know, it comes and goes,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: and for many people, when the motivation goes, the behaviors go,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: so therefore the results go. And then there's three months
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: of fucking around and then they're like they have of
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: some kind of revelation and then they're inspired again for
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: three weeks and then and then they're fifty and then
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: they sit in front of me and say, this wasn't
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: my plan, And I say, can I see the plan?
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: They're like, what I go the plan of which you
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: speak grasshopper, can I see it? And there is no
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: fucking plan. There was just an idea of how things
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: would turn out, right, And so I say to people
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: all the time, you know, inspiration and motivation and even
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: discipline and self control will power all of those things.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: They're definitely not bad things, of course, but they're not
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: the solution. They're not the answer. I'm more interested in
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: what you can do when you're not inspired and motivated.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I'm more interested in what you can do when you
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: don't feel like it, when it's inconvenient, when it's painful,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: when it's not fun, when it's not quick, when no
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: one's looking, when no one's giving you a fucking round
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: of applause or a medal, and it's And I know
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: this is a little bit hardcore, but there everything that
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: you said about environment I agree with. But most of
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: us don't live in that environment, so we go all right. Nonetheless,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I'm in this environment that isn't conducive. So in this environment,
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: in this reality that I do live, and we don't
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: need to be fucking Olympians or live on lettuce and
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: meditate in a cave. But in the context of where
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: I am, what can I do?
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: Do you know?
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: No, I know exactly so, And I think I distill
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: this down to having intention So go back to what
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I just said about those populations, where like it's just
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: naturally they're making the healthy decision without him thinking about it.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: These people aren't listening to podcasts, right, it's just the
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: way it is.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: So I like it. I like it. I kind of compare.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Our society to theirs by thinking about their society as
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: a labyrinth. So a labyrinth is designed it it's actually
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: a mindfulness practice. There's one way in and one way out.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: You don't have to make any decisions, just walk through
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: it and you will you will find your way.
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: Out the other side.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, their society is like a labyrinth, whereas ours is
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: like a maze. Right, it's very easy to get lost, okay,
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: And so you need intention, you need you need some
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: information because like it, like you said, so, our society
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: is not going to change overnight. We live in a maze.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: That's that's the cards we've been dealt. So you need
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: some intention so that as you get to that that juncture,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: you have a little whisper in your ear. Turn right, okay,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: turn right, okay, turn left, and so you have some
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: guide it so you can guide your way out of
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: the maze and achieve good health. Essentially, and I mean
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: I I developed a completely free program called the Living
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Proof Challenge, and there's a PDF on my website. People
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: can people can go and download it. It's free, there's
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: no catches, no cost. And the whole premise of that
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: challenge was exactly what we're talking about, Craig. It was like,
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: what are the if you distilled it down from a lifestyle,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: what are like, what are the handful of things that
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: would be good for people to test? Okay, so they
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: kind of understand where the hell's are today, and then
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: what are the handful of things that would be good
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: for people to in their lifestyle?
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Adopt? Yeah, test, intervene, and then retest.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Just setting people up with a very simple essentially like
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: those whispers, to say, hey, you are your your unique,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: so we're going to test you just so you can
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: see where you're at with these important things that we
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: know predict good long term health, and then you're going
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: to change some of your lifestyle, knowing that it doesn't
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: have to be perfect, right, there's no point being perfect
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: for two weeks. Let's commit to being imperfect for the
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: next three, four, five decades. Okay, we're all going to
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: have We're all going to have days where we fumble
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: whatever that we're human, and then a retest. And so
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: you have this model where you can just continually assess
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: how you're going with very simplified kind of template of
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: key things to measure that we know predict your risk
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: of chronic disease and longevity. Yeah, and so that was
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: my kind of simple, quote unquote simple solution to this
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: complex problem that you just describe so eloquently when you
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: said that this is the environment we have and it's
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: not changing.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean we'll wind up in a minute
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: because you're a busy man, and so I appreciate you. Fuck,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I've got a hard crush on you. I don't want
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: you to be uncomfortable with that, but you're really good
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: to got a man crush. You know. Another interesting thing
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Simon for me is when you know people can't get
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: their shit together right and they're they're struggling, and it's
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: like they start, they stop, they're in the zone, they're
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: out of the zone. They lose a bit, they gain
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: a bit, they get fitter, they get unfitter, and then
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: they do nothing for six months. And that was my dad,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: and my dad had a heart attack at seventy two
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: and died and was revived multiple times. So he's now
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: eighty five. So that was thirteen years ago. And obviously,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: having me as a son, I was always pestering him
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: about his habits, behavior's, lifestyle, you know, fat gut all that,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: because I'm a sympathetic son in love of course. But
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: then the guy who was always like yeah, yeah, and yep,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: and I did yeah. You know, as soon as he
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: had his heart attack, complete paradigm shift, complete thinking shift,
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: like internal reset. And even in the hospital he was
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: saying to me when he was recovering after open heart surgery,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: which it was back then, he was saying, you need
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: to tell me what I have to do. Like he'd
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: never spoken to me like that in his life. Now,
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the dude, and then obviously he
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: comes out of hospital, he loses twenty five k's, he
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: starts walking every day, he goes to the gym, he
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: gets stronger, he changes his habits and behavior and outcomes.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: He drinks les booze. It's fucking it's a new it's
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: him two point zero, right. I'm like, Buck, you could
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: have done this anytime. You didn't have to nearly die. Right.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: That's the thing that frustrates me sometimes, mate, is that
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: that people actually have the fucking incredible potential to do
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: amazing shit now now, but they wait for the catastrophe,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: they wait for the terror, you know.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Right, we take our health for granted. That's how I mean,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: that's how you would distill that, right, Like where so
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: many of us wait for something to happen and then
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: we say, okay, let's get our shit together, right. I
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Either that or you see someone very close to you
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: go through an experience where they have, you know, terrible
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: health or perhaps they even pass away from something, and
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: that is often a driver for people. It's similar to
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: me like seeing my dad have a heart attack when
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: I was when I was young. But what I would
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: say to the listener is that because not everyone's going
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: to have that direct experience, and we want people to
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: make changes earlier in life, I think you need to
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: think of it like essentially savings for retirement right now,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: If you're going to retire at sixty sixty five, we
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: all know, like it would be far better if you
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: start saving at twenty five thirty. Yeah, correct, Look if
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: you haven't and it's forty five great, say from now,
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: and you'll still be in a much better position when
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: you retire. But this is the same thing when it
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: comes to your health and we talk about your risk
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: of chronic disease or you know, your risk of having
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: a fracture, and your bone density and your risk of
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: just having a fall and losing strength as you age,
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: we can we are all going to have a reduction
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: enbonement of density, We're all going to have a reduction
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: in the amount of skelidal muscle, we go going to
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: have a reduction in strength. But what we can do
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: is we can affect the rate of that reduction dramatically.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: And the earlier we start in life, the higher we
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: are when we start to have that that decline. And
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: so that's the way that I think I like to
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: explain it to someone who's thinking, you know, why start
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: when I'm thirty or forty, I'll just wait until I'm
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: fifty and have more time.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And that's health span versus lifespan as well.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Right, exactly so, And for people that haven't heard of that,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: I mean most people probably have now. But health span
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: is essentially speaking to the number of years you live
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: in good health. So you can do whatever it is
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: that you love to do right as opposed to lifespan
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: just being total years lived. But some of those years
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: you might be severely handicapped. And so we're trying to
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: compress that window of years where you are affected by
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: disease and able to do the things you love so
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: that it's a very small period at the end of
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: the life, and then increase all the years that you're
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: in you're in good health. But start early is to
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: take her message there as early as you can. It's
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: never too late, but earlier the better.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: And so appreciate you. I could talk to you for
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: a long time, but I won't do that to you.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: How can people connect with you? Find you, follow you?
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Your podcast is the Proof, which is brilliant. How often
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: is that out?
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: Once a week?
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: At the moment, try harder, so do bad.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: You know, my dad always says room for improvement, so
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: I can hear him right now.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: That's all right.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: You know what when you said, when you said you.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Do one and one a day, I did immediately. I
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: felt immediately, I felt a little lazy.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: So thanks for that.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you can search the Proof on any podcast
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: platform or YouTube and then on if you're on Instagram.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: You can just search my name at Simon Hill and
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: you can find me there.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, gid up, Hey mate, thank you so much. We'll
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: say goodbye off air, but for the moment. Thanks for
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: being part of the You project and so nice to
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: meet you and I appreciate you.
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Thanks Craig, you're a legend. Appreciate you too,