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#174 - Chrysalis 2022 with Gary Rowe · Identity at the Center

0:09
You're listening to the identity of the center podcast.
0:12
This is a show that talks about identity and access management
0:15
and making sure you know who has access to what let's get
0:18
started. Welcome to the identity of the
0:25
sender podcast. I'm Jeff then that's Jim.
0:27
Hey, Jim, hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:29
I've got a sneaky smile on your face, seek his follow my face
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because I think I've got a well, for me, a fun topic to bring up,
0:36
which is, you know, we've really become, I think you and I to our
0:41
core were conference junkies. We really like to go to
0:44
conferences. You went to a conference this
0:47
week and, you know, that was to navigate conference.
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But I thought, what was Interesting is you're really
0:56
starting to live the small airport life.
0:59
So you know I've been in Augusta Georgia.
1:03
Now for about eight years. Augusta is not a major city in
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the United States. For those who don't know, be
1:09
prior to that, I lived in Charlotte and that in New
1:12
Jersey. So I had Newark airport, but
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I've been doing this, you know, the the commuter shuttle from
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Augusta to Atlanta. Sometimes I just drive to
1:21
Atlanta because it's their show. Shuttle flights a there's always
1:26
something goes wrong with them. So now you've got a new story.
1:28
So why don't you share it? You're living in Asheville and
1:32
so you're doing your show, it is definitely different.
1:34
So, coming from the Chicago area O'Hare used to be my main base
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and I'll hair is like one of the busiest airports in the world
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where I can get anywhere on one flight and yeah might be busy
1:43
and sometimes the way but it's pretty consistent.
1:46
Yeah. Having moved to Asheville which
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is in Western North Carolina and the mountains and I'm a grizzled
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mountain man. I take a commuter flight from
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Asheville Airport. Or into Atlanta.
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And yeah, I was coming home last night and I was coming from
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Austin to Atlanta and then Atlanta to Asheville.
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And, you know, it's a long day of travel, whatever.
2:05
You know, start to fly into Asheville where honor descent
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were about to land. And all of a sudden, notice the
2:11
plane banking like, okay? Well, like, you know what
2:14
happens, you know, why are we turn it?
2:16
You know, like, why are we turning?
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We should be like, going straight, you know, and landing.
2:19
And this has happened before, you know, one of my flights to
2:21
Monterey, I might have mentioned in a previous episode.
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We were about to land. And and then the pilot psycho.
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Yeah, we're having to make another turn because there was
2:27
another plane on the runway. Like okay, well thank you for
2:30
that. That's probably a good idea.
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And so we got, you know, we're kind of wondering what's going
2:35
on and pilot comes on and he's like, folks little bit of ground
2:39
problem in Asheville. There is a plane has crashed on
2:44
the runway. It was like, oh wow.
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Alright, that's not good. And we're being, you know, we're
2:50
we're going to circle around and figure out what to do and we
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ended up getting diverted. To Greenville, which is a few
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hours south of the Asheville area.
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And I guess what happened was a small little like Piper Cub type
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plane came in for a landing, just ahead of us.
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They were like the plane right before us.
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And they landed and their landing gear fields and
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basically crash-landed. And, you know, basically took up
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the entire Runway because Asheville only has one Runway.
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So it blocked all air traffic for probably a good three or
3:21
four hours, you know. I they took us to A Greenville.
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They gave us the option and they're like, well it's gonna be
3:28
at least an hour so you can either stay on the plane or you
3:31
can get off and kind of hang around the, you know, the the
3:35
gate there until they have an ETA or you know for people who
3:39
could do it, just go from there where they want to.
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So I chose the last option, I was like, all right, I could you
3:45
know, play the you can I can gamble and maybe the fight will
3:47
be ready. Like it's a plane crash.
3:49
Doesn't sound like that's something.
3:50
I'm going to clean up relatively easy especially at a small
3:53
airport like that. So I just I got a, I got a lift
3:57
and, you know, when to the app and yeah, to our lift ride
4:00
later, I was home. And that was my first, that's
4:03
been my first real negative experience.
4:05
I think we're, you know, I'm glad people were okay and people
4:08
were okay in the, in the plane crash.
4:09
But yeah, that's that's that's a great curveball for the end of a
4:14
week of travel and then, you know, you're in your last row
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and you're literally like descending.
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You're about to lay on and then you like.
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Nope, just kidding. We're going to take you a couple
4:22
ourself Yeah you can almost smell home but you did a couple
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of things that you're in this doing the small airport thing
4:31
that you never check a bag. Never check a bag, do anything
4:35
you can to avoid checking bag. And then number two of you did
4:38
which I thought was you know really risky but really work out
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for you is getting the lift and you said it was only two hundred
4:45
dollars to go to out and then couldn't tip that's
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mind-blowing. That is my mouth is a lot
4:50
cheaper than Chicago. Let's just say it that would
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have probably been like a three or Hundred dollar lift in Uber,
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you know, coolant in the Chicago area.
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But yeah, for whatever reason, yeah, I went to Greenville
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Airport, very nice airport, it's a really nice airport actually.
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And yeah, my guy arum took me from Greenville all the way up
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to my place in Asheville. So kudos to him, I certainly
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tipped. Well too because I know what a
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pain in the butt, that was probably for him, especially
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like he's basically two hours out of his area and now he's got
5:21
to drive back. So I made sure we took care of
5:23
the guy. Yeah, that's good.
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Good looks good. So yeah you know conference
5:27
junkies we obviously had to be in withdrawal for a couple of
5:31
years during the pandemic but things are back.
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You know. I also wanted to just mention
5:39
that we are going to a conference the week after next
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which is the Fido authenticate conference.
5:45
We're going to podcast from they're hoping to put together
5:48
for five episodes while were there at the conference.
5:52
So we're going to have another one.
5:54
Is you know, splurges or binges of content so really look
6:00
forward to that. You know we're getting hit with
6:02
those almost daily or maybe even Delhi episodes for about a week
6:08
I'll do my best and then it is easy for me to make these
6:12
promises because I have to do all the editing.
6:15
I just have right, your pretty face.
6:17
Just it's just a pretty face on the audio only podcast, and then
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we've got the OCTA octane conference That were doing in
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November. Your goal is to do the same
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thing there and you know kind of topic of conversation today.
6:33
I wanted to give a thank you to Identity OG Jackson Shaw, who's
6:39
now over a clear sky for making the introduction to our guests
6:43
today. So he's Gary row, he's a
6:46
longtime identity OG himself. For those who don't know, OG is
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Original Gangster, which its A funny term when you added to
6:56
something like identity, but it's funny because I was talking
6:59
to Gary and we're talking about a conference called digital
7:03
identity World, which was like my first identity management
7:07
conference all the way back in 2006.
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I went to it and it was just like, such a great event, you
7:16
know, Kim Cameron was there giving his giving his laws of
7:20
identity, it was brand new at the time.
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So, you know, just really good. Memories.
7:25
But, you know, I thought I know we're going to get into
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conferences and all today, so I'll stop talking about it and
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hand it back to you. Yeah, well, you, let's go ahead
7:34
and introduce the man, the myth. The legend he is Gary row.
7:37
He's the founder CEO and principal Consulting Analyst at
7:40
Tech Vision research. Welcome to the show officially
7:43
Gary. Well, thank you.
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It's absolute pleasure to be here.
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I'm I thank Jackson for the for the intro and I'm excited to
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talk about the area. We all mutually love.
7:56
So let's let's get into the Chrysalis conference in a minute
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because first, I want to find out more about Gary.
8:02
The identity person, tell me how you got into the identity and
8:06
access management space. Is it something that you chose
8:09
or did you find that? It actually chose you, you know,
8:12
it's kind of a combination of things.
8:15
You know, it's funny you're talking about the the early days
8:20
in the, you know, 2005-6 time frame.
8:24
Mmmmm why early days were were many many years or decades
8:28
earlier in the space. And, you know, one of the things
8:31
since early in my career, I always seem to track was what
8:40
was the next big thing. And it started with kind of the
8:45
shift from mainframes to many computers, as with data General,
8:50
and digital Equipment Corporation and then it was the
8:53
movement And two pc's. And although I didn't work for a
8:58
PC vendor, it dawned on me that darn all of these things need to
9:04
be harnessed, they need to connect to one, another still
9:06
pre-internet, at least commercial use of the internet.
9:12
And so I got involved in network, operating systems and a
9:16
lot of those kinds of things. And then I was in the, this is
9:22
all, you know. 80s and so late 80s.
9:27
I was director of core technology at AT&T that was
9:35
making a foray into the public messaging market and if you're
9:42
doing email you have to have directories and that was part of
9:47
my team. And so we looked at directory
9:50
Services across All of the carriers and I participate as
9:57
AT&T is rep to this thing called the North American directory
10:00
forum. And there was a consultancy that
10:06
was actually chairing that called report communication that
10:10
had Ted Meyer chairing it and Dan Blom and I joined them left
10:15
AT&T as an identity messaging consultant throughout the 90s
10:21
and Report got a pretty good name in the industry.
10:24
She got involved with a lot of the early directory Technologies
10:31
directory and the gate integration Technologies meta
10:33
director. He's a lot of those kinds of
10:35
things and then my company merged with Burton group in 1998
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and I took over as president shortly thereafter.
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And you know, we chatted about digital ID, we're old.
10:51
We had our own conference, it was pretty well-known.
10:54
In the identity circles called Catalyst.
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And so we ran that I was there for 12 years through the through
11:06
the acquisition by Gartner was then co-president of what
11:10
Gartner calls now Gartner for technical professionals along
11:14
with Jamie Lewis and but in the burden group days, you know, I
11:19
think we made some real marks in identity.
11:24
And looked at areas like the formalization of schemas
11:33
relative to ldap and we looked at areas such as the Liberty
11:39
Alliance and Federation and standardization on sam'l and
11:43
actually Incorporated. A lot of those things both into
11:46
our research or advocacy, and our conference.
11:50
So fast, forward left Gartner, and I actually was involved with
11:58
a start-up company because I had a lot of long-term non-compete
12:03
was involved with the startup company that called respect
12:08
Network. I was their CEO and then
12:10
chairman that got acquired by or it merged with ever and M and
12:16
got acquired by a vast recently in the decentralized identity
12:20
space when I kind of closed. Out that chapter, I formed
12:26
another research company, and that's Tech Vision research.
12:30
And, you know, I felt that, you know, it kind of sounds funny to
12:35
say this, but I felt that subsequent to the sale of Burton
12:41
group to Gartner, we created a bit of a gap in the market.
12:47
I wanted to fill that Gap with with tech Vision, including the
12:50
conference Chrysalis that that I know we'll chat about So that
12:55
was kind of my journey. I I've had the opportunity under
13:01
techvision being a smaller company to get much more back
13:05
into the analysts, and the Consulting roles and a lot of
13:08
those kinds of things is Burton group grew.
13:10
You know, I for years, I was kind of the business guy driving
13:14
our growth and doing a lot of those kinds of things.
13:16
So I'm having a lot of fun. Now, with our company and can I
13:21
say a few words about tech Vision?
13:23
Yeah, I was going to ask you because I For people who aren't
13:25
familiar to check Vision, you know, what is you mentioned,
13:27
research group and there's, there's obviously, you know,
13:29
players in this space. But tell us what tech division.
13:31
Does sure it my vision with tech vision from the beginning was
13:37
what Jamie. And I started at Burton group,
13:41
Circa 1998, 1999 2000, which was to take great consultants, in
13:49
great analysts and bring them together.
13:52
And so, with Activision I've had the opportunity to do that from
13:57
the beginning because you know if you just do research you can
14:01
be very your analytical but you don't necessarily get a full
14:07
understanding of what's happening on the ground, right?
14:09
How things get done in large organizations if you're a just a
14:15
consultancy, you know, you're not getting the things that we
14:20
get in terms of regular vendor briefings Do the primary
14:25
research, write the reports, and so forth.
14:28
So everyone on our team is very senior much, like may not just
14:33
an age but in terms of experience, but we but we have
14:38
equal parts, the kind of pragmatic on the ground
14:43
Consulting where we're in the middle of doing a project with a
14:48
large healthcare provider and some of the insights, they are
14:51
actually going into a research report.
14:54
Port. We're in the process of writing
14:57
with the about the Microsoft entra offering because they were
15:02
at some decision points with respect to that.
15:04
So we did a lot of research will package that and our perspective
15:09
into a research reports. We see that as very synergistic
15:13
and then the third leg on the stool is is developing a
15:18
conference and, you know, from the conference side, it's not a
15:23
little tricky, you know, I Just so we did our inaugural
15:26
conference in November of 2019 and made commitments to do it.
15:35
I was going to grow it every year and and, and do it for for
15:39
several years. And then obviously couldn't
15:41
couldn't. So this will be only our second
15:46
in person conference. Last year, we did one virtually
15:50
the first year in 2020. We we didn't do.
15:54
Ooh, either so that. So, there was a bit of a gap,
15:56
but the ability to bring this community together and I can
16:00
talk a little bit as this proceeds, about some of the
16:02
speakers, you know, for a relatively small intimate event.
16:06
I'm just thrilled with the quality of just experts and
16:13
identity, and security, and privacy and governance.
16:17
You know, we've been able to to attract.
16:19
Yeah, I'm sure it's pretty humbling.
16:21
Look, just looking at the list it's like household.
16:24
Teams in our industry, right? I thought you brought up such an
16:28
interesting point, there about Consulting, and versus being, an
16:33
analyst or research is Jeff. And I have been doing strategic
16:39
advisor together for over five years.
16:42
And what we always say is that when you go in and you're in
16:45
that advisory situation, your clients expect you to know
16:49
everything, right? You need to understand how their
16:53
business works. How, you know, all the nuances
16:57
of modern, I t+ Legacy it, as well as know, every product in
17:03
the marketplace. And I think we did a pretty good
17:05
job of, you know, making sure we were jack of all trades, but
17:09
let's be real, nobody knows everything.
17:11
So, definitely that point that you made resonated.
17:14
So, so Gary. Now you're the CEO of tech
17:19
Vision research and you put it on this conference called the
17:21
Chrysalis conference. Hey, the Question, that came to
17:25
my mind, was, how did you come up with the name Chrysalis?
17:29
Well, it's there's, there's kind of two aspects to it.
17:36
The the first one, and the reason I even knew, or thought
17:39
about the term, was it sounds like you guys are both in the
17:43
southwest. I lived in the Atlanta area in
17:46
Roswell for for a long period of time.
17:48
I'm in San Diego now but we had our kids in a private school.
17:54
School and it was called the Chrysalis experiential Academy.
18:00
And you know, it was based on this concept that, you know,
18:04
kids learn a lot more with experience so they infused a lot
18:09
of things in the program at very, very small school and so
18:14
that got me thinking about it. But you know, when we came up
18:18
with a name this was 2019 and every Company and their brothers
18:26
were in the process of talking about digital transformation.
18:31
And so, we look at these things, from a security perspective, and
18:36
identity perspective of governance perspective.
18:39
And so as I started to think about it, you know, the the the
18:44
biological, you know Chrysalis process is, you know, moving
18:49
from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
18:54
And you're in this it you're at this point where you're this
18:59
kind of amorphous mass is very vulnerable but they but there's
19:05
a cocoon around it, right? So there's this hard protective
19:07
shell, I see that, I saw it years ago, I see it even more.
19:12
So now you know as we're dealing with the the rampant digital
19:17
expansion, you know, driven by covid and lockdowns and so
19:21
forth. That's where you're most
19:23
vulnerable. Ball.
19:24
So it's security, its identity, its these pieces around it.
19:29
You know, one of the things that that, that I say that you guys
19:32
probably agree with just given the nature of this podcast, but
19:37
I honestly believe it that identity is the most important
19:42
element of a digital Enterprise program.
19:46
That digital transformation is a lot of the consultancies call
19:50
it. So, you know, the so that's the
19:54
Since behind but behind Chrysalis was the case in 2019.
20:00
It's absolutely the case. Now and it really fits in with
20:04
the theme of our company and our conference.
20:06
Hey pretty up to concept of digital transformation.
20:10
So I love that whole tie in but you bring up that that Concept
20:14
in such a big concept, that can mean so many things to so many
20:19
organizations, right? And it's usually goes beyond
20:23
just the Nuts and bolts of it, but starts to pull in other
20:27
areas of the business, Jeff and I are still, you know, doing
20:31
consulting where our SM now and we work within a practice called
20:37
cyber transformation to me. That starts to narrow down the
20:41
digital transformation element, our digital transformation into
20:45
its element around cybersecurity.
20:49
So to me, the term cyber transformation is all about what
20:53
is the Charity component to digital transformation.
20:57
So I just thought that was interesting that you brought
20:59
that up, because I think a big part for me is like, when I hear
21:03
these new terms, like digital transformation or zero trust,
21:08
it's like I have to be able to put it into some contacts that I
21:12
can associate with. Based on my past six.
21:15
I want to learn more about the conference so who's it for, when
21:20
is it occurring? Where is it going to be at all?
21:22
That good stuff. Sure, the the References
21:24
November 7th to the ninth it's and the San Diego area on
21:30
Coronado Island at the Loews Coronado.
21:34
You can find out about it, just go into Tech Vision
21:37
research.com. It's it's a it's going to be a
21:44
small conference. It's very content Centric.
21:49
There's going to be a really strong wrong signal to noise
21:55
ratio, you know, at the conference it is and and and and
22:01
this is one of the reasons I appreciate the the opportunity
22:04
to, you know, be on a podcast like this, you know, everybody
22:09
says this and, and I'll use actually a burton group Catalyst
22:16
experience to kind of maybe give you a sense for how we look at
22:21
conferences. So, you know, as Catalyst groom,
22:25
we have, you know, thousands of people towards the end but it
22:28
was still very cut. You know, we didn't have
22:29
exhibition halls and stuff. It was all about the content.
22:33
So, all about, how do we improve identity and security systems
22:35
and so forth? But we would leverage the group
22:39
of people that was there and do some of these focus groups.
22:42
So our VP of marketing at the time, you know, orchestrated
22:47
these things and I was in a I was in a room behind, you know,
22:52
the one-way mirrors. And and so, so they're talking
22:56
about marketing messages and they're they're, you know, we're
23:00
unbiased, we're completely vendor-independent focused on
23:03
the end user and so on and so forth.
23:06
And there were about, you know, 10 of our bigger customers and
23:08
prospective customers were in there and they said you can't
23:12
use that because everybody says that and then 10 to one of the
23:17
guys in the room, basically said the case of Burton group, it's
23:21
actually true and that everyone would Shake Our heads.
23:25
And, you know, that's that's what I'm looking to do with
23:28
Patek vision, and the conference is, you know, to make sure
23:33
there's there's so much hype out there to get real world class
23:37
experts in front of people that honestly want to help the
23:44
Enterprise Mission. So, it's all about the
23:47
Enterprise Mission. We, we have vendors participate,
23:51
but even the vendor participation, The technician
23:54
analysts and we did the same thing with Burton and Catalyst
23:58
will have a tech Vision analyst will choreograph this session.
24:01
You know, might be privileged access management.
24:03
So, we'll say, you know, here's here's where we see Pam, there's
24:06
Trends towards Jim Pam and, you know, some of these other kinds
24:09
of things. And, you know, here's here's
24:14
where we see the market key user requirements and so forth.
24:17
And that if there's vendors on the panel will say, what do you
24:19
think? What are your experiences with
24:21
customers? Where you going?
24:23
Because of course, You know, it's while you know, you don't
24:27
want vendor marketing pitches you were not building this
24:32
stuff. They are.
24:33
So you do want to hear, you know what, you know, sale point is
24:38
doing and you know, Microsoft and and and the big companies in
24:43
this space. So so we look to we look to
24:47
balance that but even the people that we get you mentioned
24:51
Jackson Jackson from Clear Sky, he's been In this face for 30
24:55
years. So to have him on a panel
24:57
talking about IGA, you know, he'll give a great industry
25:01
perspective and then we'll highlight what clear skies doing
25:04
in that area. Pim Dingle from Microsoft, you
25:08
know, a very similar thing. She she came to our early
25:11
Catalyst conference as we worked with her for four decades.
25:15
So, you know, that's, that's really what we're looking to do
25:21
in. I guess one other aspect, Is
25:25
that it and no disrespect to any of the other conferences.
25:30
Ours is just different, I think they're all great in terms of
25:34
what they do but our conference it you know if you're doing a
25:39
big conference there's going to be a lot of great sessions but
25:41
they're all over the place you know you can go to this one and
25:45
its technical this one you know is business oriented the way we
25:52
characterize Crystal. Alice in, I didn't actually come
25:56
up with this, some of our customers did.
25:58
After our first conference. They said, you know, this is a
26:01
conference with a story. So we look to link all of the
26:06
pieces together from day, 1 Day, 2 Day 3 from one session to the
26:11
other because frankly in the real world and you know this
26:14
from doing your Consulting projects and just your work in
26:18
this space, it's all interconnected, you know,
26:20
identities farted digital, let's part of security.
26:24
It sparked a zero trust. Now we have to think about
26:27
privacy and Regulatory controls. And, you know, sometimes there's
26:33
there's trade-offs between, you know how much information can
26:37
you collect from a security perspective without, you know,
26:41
having too much data from regulatory control perspective.
26:44
So, you know it all plays together.
26:46
So from it and if it makes sense, I can kind of walk
26:49
through the general structure of the conference and how the days
26:53
will. Whoa, but but the whole thing is
26:57
tightly choreographed to basically tell a story and in
27:01
day 3 will net it all out with the set of tools and so forth
27:05
for the for the Enterprise attendees.
27:08
So Gary you also mentioned that piece about Pam and by the way,
27:13
we did an episode where we called Pam is dead.
27:16
And what about how about a clickbait d title, right?
27:20
Pam is dead. I got so many messages about my
27:23
from people. We're in the Pam space, right?
27:27
But anyway seriously though one of the things I looked at like I
27:31
was super impressed by the people who are going to be at
27:34
the Chrysalis conference but I also thought, okay those are
27:38
folks who all know each other. There have been in this industry
27:43
for 20 plus years. If I'm new to the industry, is
27:47
there a place for me at my going to feel welcome?
27:50
How are you going to take people who don't know all these People
27:54
and make sure that they don't feel like they're not in the, in
27:59
the group. That's that's, that's a great
28:02
question, you know, we will Deep dive into certain topics where
28:09
it's required, but but that's part of the conference with the
28:13
story, right? Where, you know, we're starting
28:17
with, you know, where businesses are going, where Enterprises are
28:21
going with, respect to digital Over the last, you know, three
28:29
years, a lot of companies were in survival mode.
28:34
You had to get your digital connections out there in some
28:37
way to survive. So now there's an opportunity to
28:41
shore up the identity. The security, a lot of these
28:44
pieces. So I think that will be helpful
28:47
for somebody who maybe hasn't been as steeped in this over
28:53
over long. A time.
28:55
And then, on day 3, which will be a half a day, we're going to
28:59
look at identity security, and risk, and privacy, and net it
29:05
out. Look at we developed tools, we
29:09
call reference architectures. So we'll look at a reference
29:13
architecture. Dan Bloom has put this fantastic
29:16
capability together on and he's getting ready.
29:20
We had a meeting on it yesterday.
29:24
How to basically update his multi-cloud security reference
29:30
architecture that takes all of security.
29:33
It certainly ties into nest and some of the things that are out
29:38
there. But brings it from the business
29:41
perspective, all the way down to the elements that are included
29:44
and it's a great checklist for organizations that are trying to
29:49
put plans and processes and procedures.
29:51
We've done a ton of work, that goes back to the Days.
29:55
Developing a capabilities, face security, identity, reference
29:59
architecture, Doug Simmons. And I'll walk through that is as
30:04
well. And then, Joe Phillips will do
30:06
the same thing on the Privacy side.
30:08
You know, how do you develop a privacy program?
30:10
How do you make some of those decisions that need to be made
30:15
relative to some of those trade-offs?
30:18
I want to tease out some of the, some of the key themes, you
30:21
know, through the agenda as I was looking through it.
30:24
There's I think it really kind of kicks off with securing our
30:26
digital future, which sounds ominous concerning scary.
30:32
And how are we going to do that key?
30:34
Is there a way you can give us maybe kind of a sneak peek into
30:36
kind of, you know, what is that actually going to address?
30:39
Sure. It's I mean, that's my initial
30:42
level set which, you know, will basically have tentacles and
30:47
throughout the entire program, right?
30:49
So a lot of the things that we'll be talking about during
30:52
the course of Of, you know, the two-and-a-half days will be the
30:58
elements in terms of the identity platforms and IGA
31:02
capabilities and and you know, how do we scale some of these
31:08
things you know, how do we integrate some of these
31:12
Technologies? How do we secure it?
31:15
How do we leverage Ai, and machine learning and in all of
31:19
these other capabilities to have something that That that we
31:24
call. I haven't seen a lot of research
31:26
firms really look at it like this but but but we don't just
31:30
go with zero trust. And this was Dan blooms
31:33
contribution early on WE characterized it as zero across
31:37
zero friction. And you know and that that's
31:40
another great lesson learned over the last two and a half
31:44
years is. Yeah, we can lock things down
31:47
from a security perspective and you know, have no customers
31:51
actually use it because it's a little bit too cumbersome.
31:54
So in this been several cios is we've done projects and ccos
31:59
that start with that. You know we have to figure out
32:02
how to make this more usable how to make it more attractive.
32:06
So so basically these capabilities will be you know,
32:11
ingrained we have developed some top-level capabilities, a
32:15
digital Enterprise reference architecture that takes the
32:18
various environments and kind of brings them in place and that's
32:23
a hook on. After the reference
32:25
architecture, we doing security and identity and throughout you
32:28
start really big and then start to break out the specific
32:33
capabilities that that drive the the business needs that you
32:38
have. So the new digital Enterprise
32:42
you know is is something that we actually don't like using the
32:48
the term digital transformation because this is the way that
32:53
most of Enterprises will do business it's or maybe it's
32:57
constant transformation but you know where this is this is the
33:02
way a life for for Enterprises were saying that 34 years ago
33:06
and obviously, you know, that is a substantive change that, you
33:12
know, occurred over the last two years.
33:15
I find it interesting. You know zero trust is sort of
33:17
like taking over the world like every every conference I've been
33:20
to this year has been kind of a major theme and I think for good
33:23
reason, I think there are certainly valid Concepts there
33:25
that need to be, you know, part of security strategy and
33:28
certainly identity is part of that and I looked through the
33:31
agenda and I noticed that there was one from Jay Schumacher, who
33:35
is part of Hondas organization. He's the leaves there I am.
33:39
And he's talking about identity zero trust and I think it's
33:42
interesting this is not coming from, you know, Quote unquote,
33:45
I'm analyst right? Or a vendor, it's coming from
33:48
somebody who's in the business and doing this on a day in day
33:51
out, I love talks like that because I feel like I get more
33:55
out of those and understanding sort of the path that others
33:59
have taken. You know, the paint.
34:00
I'm sure he'll probably share maybe some of the pain and
34:03
Lessons Learned and things like that.
34:05
And it one of those things is, it's always, you know, it's okay
34:08
to get smarter. Right and sort of learn from
34:11
those sort of the facts. And, and I see other things like
34:14
Is worthless and, you know, upgrading modern if indication
34:18
and decentralised and there is a lot of really good topics and
34:23
I'm like, sometimes a squirrel, I go to a conference and it's
34:27
like, I want to be in this one, and that one, and this one, and
34:30
they all happen sort of, at the same time, it's difficult to
34:33
kind of consume it all at once, you know, sort of be present for
34:38
those conversations. I'm looking forward to hopefully
34:41
be able to make it out this year, or next year, I will be
34:44
able to make it This year because obviously will be tied
34:46
up with, with Octavio, think, which is at the same time it is,
34:49
but you've got some really good topics and really good speakers.
34:53
And, you know, I think it's, I think it's really cool.
34:55
And I'm looking forward to kind of hearing more after the fact
34:59
is, is people who kind of attending consume it and see
35:01
what their thoughts are, as well.
35:04
Yeah, and you know some of the topics like like zero trust, you
35:11
know, there's there's so much marketing hype around it.
35:14
I spent several days walking around and interviewing vendors
35:21
and and Folks, at RSA and there, there were two things that were
35:29
more prevalent than than, you know, Starbucks and a big.
35:33
City and one was zero trust. The other one was a I am l in
35:39
security. And of course, both of those
35:42
topics, we will cover at Chrysalis.
35:46
But you know, one of the things we spend a lot of time thinking
35:49
about it. Both on the Consulting side and
35:53
you know, in terms of positioning in the industry, is
35:57
kind of the line of demarcation between the hype.
36:00
And the reality, you know, part is zero trust is just you know
36:06
decade decades-long security practices.
36:11
Every time we talk about and we'll hear this in the security
36:14
Legends panel, my good friend former colleague.
36:17
Frank Fred Cohen, if you guys know Fred when, when he just
36:24
hates the term and you know, it's it's, you know, we Have
36:30
best practices and we should have been doing this all along
36:33
and so forth that said, you know, they're you know, simple
36:40
things and this gets into the identity piece as well.
36:43
Simple things like the fact that, you know, given you know,
36:52
how everything is being distributed right now, you know,
36:57
shoot, we've been saying for 20 years and I think it really is
37:00
Is now identity. Is this new perimeter?
37:02
Because what else are you going to do?
37:04
And the basic concept of zero trust where you're going to have
37:10
a, you're going to have somebody inside of the firewall and
37:21
that's still isn't good. And you know, if you have all
37:26
kinds of devices some of the you know iot devices Is all kinds of
37:31
ways to access information where highly mobile, you know how, how
37:37
can you lock things down? It was funny, we were doing a
37:41
doing a research report about 23 year about three, four years ago
37:47
on zero trust and networking Sorrell.
37:50
Slay maker was doing it, he was pretty new with tech Vision, it
37:53
just left Gardener. And so I got on the calls just
37:57
to give a little bit of background about tech Vision,
38:00
I'm there, you know? No, I'm not really a networking
38:01
guy, but I know something about identity and we were on with
38:06
Palo Alto and centrify and you know, all of the Cisco.
38:10
All the vendors were talking about zero trust networking.
38:13
But then I noticed the entire discussion was about identity
38:18
and, you know, so, so, and Honda will talk about that will will
38:25
have General Motors talk a little bit about that on day,
38:28
two as well. In terms of their Ernie, you
38:31
know, ended in 20 trust but you know, to have those end-user
38:35
case studies to round out the analysis, I think is great.
38:38
So Gary at the last Chrysalis, which was in November of last
38:43
year and it was virtual, one of the I am Legends, who
38:48
participated in that conference was Kim Cameron and now Kim
38:52
wrote the laws of identity that was his, you know, his
38:56
Masterpiece, if you will back in 2006 and it became an important
39:01
part of how the industry looked at online night.
39:05
Well, I think most people probably know Kim passed away in
39:08
December and you were a close personal friend of his and we
39:13
just wanted to give you an opportunity to maybe tell
39:16
everyone what people should know about.
39:19
Kim, that thank you for giving me the opportunity while I'll
39:25
say something about Kim at at at Chrysalis, as well, Um, you
39:32
know, he, he loves technology. It's an unwavering passion for
39:37
technology but also humanity. And a lot of the the areas that
39:44
he got behind over the years, you know, tied into that
39:52
intersection, you know, user-centric identity which has
39:57
now morphed into some of the decentralized identity and so
40:01
forth. He was extremely passionate
40:04
about As a person, he was absolute technical genius.
40:12
And and I had so many people kind of give me feedback about
40:17
this. Kim had actually reached out.
40:21
All he had told his family before he passed to reach out to
40:24
me because family really, you know, was less cognizant or
40:29
professional accomplishments to write his professional obituary
40:35
which which It just brings tears to my eyes, even, even
40:39
recollecting. But several people stepped up
40:43
and they said, you know, it's funny.
40:45
You asked the question earlier about what about the people that
40:48
are new in this space and I had several people highlight.
40:52
That's just what Kim did he made everybody?
40:56
Feel like they were the center of attention if they were an
41:01
absolute genius in the, I am space or just starting out And
41:06
you know, he had that ability and the humanity and he is
41:11
driven not, I mean, he's well-known for the loss of
41:14
identity, I got to know him in the 90s when you developed this
41:18
matter. Directory concept that this
41:19
company called Zoom at that Microsoft acquired, we brought
41:23
him in he probably spoke at catalysts like 20 times over the
41:28
years. And, and the cool thing was even
41:32
though he's a Microsoft employee, He would make the the,
41:37
the pr people nervous because Kim with say what he was
41:41
thinking about, you know, which doesn't always resonate with
41:45
with large organizations. One of the reasons we loved
41:47
having him on stage though. So yeah, just just and then the
41:54
fact that, you know, I, I knew things were not good, but the
42:00
fact that it was like, 34 weeks before that, he joined us on to
42:04
panel sessions. Because we did it virtually.
42:07
And that was, I guess the blessing of doing it virtually.
42:10
And I think Kim just love this space so much.
42:14
He just wanted to participate. So he was on our identity
42:17
Legends panel and he was on our panel for decentralized
42:21
identity, which is, as I said, was an area of passion and he,
42:25
he had such an impact on on our industry and absolutely will
42:30
always always be remembered. Fondly, I think that's probably
42:34
at the highest praise that I can think of Of you know,
42:37
professionally is you made your mark, you know, it's a rare
42:41
thing statistically where, you know, people are.
42:45
Are you know, that well regarded in their space right?
42:48
And they they go down into the Legends category, right?
42:51
If there was like a hall of fame for you know for identity I'm
42:54
sure he would be in there along with a bunch of other people and
42:57
I think that's that's what we look for right?
42:59
Is everyone, kind of want to make some Mark and certainly he
43:02
did it which is you know good stuff and such Such a nice guy,
43:07
you know, I just just such a such a great person that's even
43:11
better. It's going to be.
43:12
So I know we want to kind of wrap things up here and keep
43:14
Congress at a time. We typically go to a lighter
43:17
note towards the end of the conversation.
43:20
So I guess in a little bit of sort of an awkward transition
43:22
that will hopefully you know bring things back to maybe I'm
43:26
sure there were good memories but maybe you know put smiles on
43:29
faces is I want to end out this week with a question that came
43:34
from our friend, Tom Item over at Southpoint.
43:37
We were talking to him earlier today and you know I said I love
43:41
we're going to record later and he's I got a good.
43:43
He's like I got a good lighter note for him.
43:44
I will good. Give it to me because I don't
43:45
have one yet and that's just as sometimes How We Roll here is
43:49
last minute and he came up with this question which I love how
43:52
many devices are currently connected to your home network?
43:57
And how many do you recognize? Now before we get into the
44:01
answers here, I'm sure there will be answers all over the
44:05
place. Case.
44:06
I will posit that if you have if you're a betting person I bet I
44:11
have the most devices on a network.
44:13
If you know me I'm a total nerd and device geek but who knows?
44:17
Maybe Jim is a dark horse, maybe Gary's the Dark Horse as well.
44:20
Write, that might have some stuff out there.
44:22
Gary will start with you how many devices are currently
44:26
connected to your home network? And how many of you recognize?
44:29
I would say that it's a half a dozen.
44:36
So I'm sure I will be on, on the low side, you know, TVs, Wi-Fi.
44:45
Routers computers may be up to eight, but but it's, it's, it's
44:51
not a big number and I don't have a refrigerator washer dryer
44:59
or some of the other, you know, iot enabled devices, but most
45:03
importantly, you have your inventory.
45:05
So you know, what's on your network?
45:07
And it sounds to me like you have a pretty good idea of
45:09
what's there. And there are not things that
45:11
you're wondering. Hmm, what is that thing?
45:13
Yeah, I do. Yeah, that's the way to do it.
45:16
Jim about yourself. How many devices are currently
45:19
connected to your home network? I'm pretty sure have more than
45:22
Gary, right? I think I've got a half dozen
45:25
that have Syria right now, but I've got, you know, ring
45:28
doorbell. I've got Wi-Fi enabled cameras
45:32
and sprinkler systems. I've got two laptops.
45:35
Sprinkler system. Yeah, ratio ratio Ratio or ratio
45:41
sprinkler system. This is a great invention.
45:44
You can see your whole sprinkler thing through a phone app.
45:49
It also is connected to weather forecasts, so it will basically,
45:54
you can set it up to cancel if there's been a lot of rain, you
45:59
know, things like that. So you can really go heavy in
46:02
terms of your configuration you can keep it very.
46:05
So how many Devices, do you think you have on your network
46:07
then do you know? So so the other thing is I have
46:09
kids and their friends and they all come over.
46:11
They all have phones computers, TVs gaming systems.
46:19
I've got to have over 100 but no, I don't have a will have an
46:22
exact over 100. That's crazy.
46:25
It is. I think I have over 100.
46:27
I alway that. You've got me because I'm
46:29
looking at my inventory and now I have 44 devices online as we
46:33
speak a mix of, you know, everything you Expect in the
46:36
house, right? Laptops, computers, phones,
46:39
smart devices, cameras, you know, all that good stuff.
46:43
And I have a 90 each device is because I am one of those people
46:46
who goes into, you know, my my router app labels them.
46:51
So I know what they are testing. Things is okay.
46:55
Here's this thing that says that it's, you know, from Shenzhen
46:57
and it has like no names. Like, alright, I think that's
47:01
the camera. Let me go test it out.
47:02
Yep, that it is. So so yeah, I would have thought
47:05
I would Had had both you guys beat but Jim's.
47:07
I mean 100 devices. It's, that's not yeah.
47:10
I will show up. When I lived in New Jersey, I
47:13
lived in a townhouse community and people would always connect
47:18
to my network. So I would always have devices
47:21
connected to my Wi-Fi, so I changed my Wi-Fi SSID to we call
47:27
the FBI. I figure if people saw that and
47:32
they connected to it, then you know, they've Higher risk
47:36
tolerance that. I do.
47:38
I think I named one of my access points like FBI van number four
47:42
in. You know, it's like well waste I
47:43
guess that's number 4. Where the other?
47:45
Three. Write something like that?
47:47
Yeah. If shrunk again drown?
47:49
Yeah, people were probably looking left.
47:50
Alright, let's go ahead and wrap it up for this week before we go
47:55
Gary any final thoughts. I know we talked off all about
47:57
the Chrysalis conference and it looks like a fantastic option
47:59
for folks that are interested. Anything you want people to take
48:02
away from this conversation, we just had I The biggest takeaway
48:07
is if you're a large Enterprise and you're trying to figure this
48:14
stuff out the, the depth and breadth of presenters in a small
48:22
venues. So you'll have an opportunity to
48:24
sync up with them throughout the two and a half days.
48:29
You will come out of this with a plan input torque.
48:35
Birds, you know what you want to do and identity security
48:39
governance with with tools and capabilities.
48:43
So it's again a very different, you know, type of event.
48:48
And and thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about this.
48:52
I sense, we could probably talk identity for like, the next 45
48:56
hours. Oh, absolutely.
48:58
Yeah, it's it was, it was very cool and I got to tell you, I
49:00
hats off for one, your selection of location.
49:03
Coronado Island is awesome. San Diego area.
49:06
I'm totally big fan of, but yes, I'm very familiar with that.
49:09
And it is definitely, I, you know, I'm not going to tell you
49:13
that location plays into my confort selection, but it
49:17
certainly does help with the ones that that are out there.
49:21
So I was always a fan of catalysts as well.
49:23
I've been to a few of those and having that in San Diego, there
49:27
at think, it's at the think it's, at the Hyatt right by
49:29
Seaport Village. That was always a good time.
49:32
So yeah, kudos to that. Jim, how about yourself?
49:35
Final thoughts for this week? Yeah.
49:37
Just thinking about, you know, this topic of there being a
49:41
conferences and being the new person I think, heck everybody
49:45
was the new person a conference at one point.
49:48
I remember one conversation was that they had little, I don't
49:53
know if you'd call it badges or a little flags, that would go
49:56
under people's name tags and we did indicate, you know, their
50:00
member or, you know, whatever. And and one of the flags you can
50:04
have the same Ed first-time attendee and what was really
50:09
great about that. As you had the first time,
50:11
attendee people go out of their way to make sure that.
50:14
Hey, do you need any help or, you know hey my name is Jim.
50:18
What kind of triggered that is like my attitude.
50:22
But I would encourage everybody who, you know, whether you're
50:26
new, if you're just pour like, outgoing oriented is to go out
50:30
Network, make people feel comfortable making traductions.
50:34
You see? Too shy or standing in the
50:37
corner. You know, not really part of
50:41
what's going on, like, pull them in.
50:43
Make them part of what's going on.
50:45
At the very least, you're going to probably make a new friend
50:48
out of the whole deal. So, you know, that's my attitude
50:51
and I would encourage everyone else to do that spoken, like a
50:54
true social butterfly that you are.
50:57
Yeah, exactly. Right.
50:59
We're gonna cut and repair for this week, we will have links to
51:02
Gary on LinkedIn. So if you want to get, In touch
51:06
with him about something, he mentioned, definitely reach out
51:09
that way. Also, for Crystalis the
51:11
conference itself, you can find text Vision, research, Tech
51:14
version, techvision, research.com all this will be in
51:17
our show notes that you can find on our website identity at the
51:19
center.com. And we're also on Twitter at
51:22
idac podcasts. And yeah, don't forget, we'll be
51:25
out of medicate and Octane and in a few weeks here, if your
51:28
listener, feel free to come on up last year at a fennec, 8 was
51:32
the first time I had ever had a listener.
51:33
Come up to me and say, Hey, listen.
51:35
Like, oh, that's Cool. And I felt like Garth and you
51:38
know from Wayne and Garth and I was like okay and then you know,
51:41
kind of sucked away so you can feel free to make me
51:43
uncomfortable any time. That would be great.
51:46
All right. Well, God leave it there.
51:47
Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with everyone in
51:50
the next one. Thanks for listening to the
51:55
identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard,
51:58
don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity
52:01
at the center.com.