Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Pursuing a Career in Concert Dance

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Pursuing a Career in Concert Dance · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
0:10
SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
0:13
SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Dancers can choose from so many professional performance avenues as they embark on their careers after the competitive dance world.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Today on Making the Impact, we talk to two concert dancers about their experience in the concert dance team and hear advice for young dancers interested in pursuing this path.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: Hey dance world, welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: Hey Courtney, happy podcast day! Happy Podcast Day, happy April.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to be here with you and two brand new guests on this episode to talk all about the concert dance scene of our dance world.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: I know, me too.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: So that is like not my world at all.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to learn a little bit more about it and hear about these two guests' experiences, and hopefully our listeners out there learn a little bit too.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Yes, this is gonna be a really great discussion for all of the dancers out there who maybe love contemporary and might want to break into that professional dance world after going to college or diving right in after they graduate from their studio.
1:27
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna hear some fantastic tips and advice from these two guests.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: But before we jump into our episode, we want to tell you about our Making the Impact Award winners at IDA affiliated competition events.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: This is going to one dance at an IDA comp that your IDA judges get to pick.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: And it's that dance that they just cannot stop thinking about by the end of the weekend.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: And they wanted to recognize them with an lovely award on site at the event, as well as a shout-out live on the podcast.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the perks of winning the Making the Impact Award.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: And we have three award winners to share today.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: From Just Dance Invitationals event in Las Vegas, Nevada, congrats to Dance Dynamics from Las Vegas for their solo Writings on the Wall, performed by Tyler B.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: From Starbound's event in Springfield, Massachusetts, congrats to the Dance Slipper Academy from Southwick, Massachusetts, for their solo Disappear, performed by Ava P.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: And from Diva Dance Competitions event in Fall River, Massachusetts.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations to Edge Studio of Dance for their solo, Sea Lion Woman, performed by Brooklyn M.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: Congrats to all of our recent Making the Impact Award winners, and stay tuned to hear more throughout the dance competition season.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: And like always, let's hear from our sponsors.
2:42
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3:12
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3:15
SPEAKER_02: Our season 5 premiere sponsor, Francisco Gella Danceworks, is thrilled to introduce New Century Dance Project, a performance festival for the aspiring choreographers.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: Throughout the seven-day intensive, you will learn the craft of choreography from the perspective of not only the choreographer, but also for the dancers.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: New Century Dance Project hosts many components during their event, such as a choreography intensive, a prestigious choreography competition, concert performances, and community outreach events.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: The intensive starts each day with a technique class, followed by classes and seminars that will help you hone your choreographic skills, like compositional techniques, improv, music selection, lighting design, and so much more.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: Submit your work into the New Century Dance Project Choreography Competition, which offers three different age groups, high school, undergraduate, and emerging professional.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: The competition results in a critic's choice winner and a people's choice winner for each age division.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: If you're an aspiring choreographer 15 years or older and looking to advance your composition game, then head to the New Century Dance Project, happening this summer in Santa Fe, New Mexico, from July 29th through August 4th, 2024.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: And don't forget, if you want to save$75, use our exclusive podcast promo code, MAKINGTHEIMPATI in all caps when registering for the festival.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: Learn more on their website and register now at newscenturydanceproject.org.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: Thank you to Francisco Gella Danceworks for being our season five premiere sponsor.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: We're jumping into this week's episode, and we're talking all about concert dance today on making the impact, which I'm sure we've talked about a handful of times.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: We've had an episode about concert dance, maybe all the way back in season one, I think it was, Leslie.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: That was a long time ago.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: It's been a minute.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: It's been a minute for sure, but I'm really excited to bring two brand new guests.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think the important thing about this discussion is that these guests also came from the competitive dance world.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: So they were one of you, if you're a dancer out there listening, who loves contemporary and wants to break into the concert dance scene as a professional.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: And now they're going to share all of their advice and experiences in their professional dance world.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: Two brand new guests are joining us, two friends of mine.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: Can't wait to hear from them.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: First guest, I'm excited to welcome.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: I met her a few years back teaching alongside her on Revel Dance Convention.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: She's an amazing dance educator, beautiful dancer, and a New Yorker as well.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to welcome Maddie Hicks to the podcast.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Maddie.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: Hi, everyone.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be here.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Courtney and Leslie.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to talk.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: All things concert dance.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Yay!
5:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm so thrilled to have you as well.
5:56
SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, if you wouldn't mind telling the world more about you, where you grew up, what your early dance training was like, what you any career credits and what you're working on now.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I grew up in Dallas, Texas.
6:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh, like Courtney said, I was a competition dancer and I just loved to go to conventions and learn from all the teachers and soak up all the knowledge.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: I went to forming arts high school called Booker T Washington, which really opened up my mind to modern dance and more concert dance opportunities, uh choreographic opportunities, all those things.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: And from there I went to the Juilliard School, where similar to Booker T, I just kind of continued to open my mind to concert dance.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Got really into modern training, got really into composition classes and fell in love with choreographing and teaching and all the things.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: From there, I went to LA and I danced with LA Dance Project for a season with the wonderful Doug Bong.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And we had a lot of fun traveling the world.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: I only did one season because I loved choreographing so much and was really feeling that itch to keep creating and wanted to take a slightly different path than you know.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, everyone's path is unique and individual, but I felt a little bit like I was taking a shift and I went to grad school to get my MFA in choreography at CalArts.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: It was then where I again fell more in love with creating and being on the other side of things, still performing, but on a smaller scale, slash more for myself and in my own projects and stuff.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: So I did that for a couple years, moved back to New York, and now we're just um freelancing up here, choreographing, teaching, directing, performing.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: I danced for Sidra Bell for a while, and now I'm mainly focusing on my own company.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Call Moving Ford.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: We have our big first full evening of my work, which I'm really terrified and excited about having this June in New York City.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: So I'm working a lot on that, and I teach for 24-7 Dance Convention and at Steps on Broadway, stuff like that.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, wearing all the hats, doing all the things and loving it.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: Wow, yes, yes, you are.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: You are doing so many things.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, and um, where is your show happening in New York and what are the dates?
8:07
SPEAKER_02: Tell the world.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Oh, please come everybody, please, please, please, please.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: It is uh June 15th and 16th at Perry Dances K and J Theater, it's their black box theater, and a couple of the pieces have been workshopped before at different residencies.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: We had a residency at Orselina in Italy, and then we had a residency at 14th Street Y about a month ago.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: But besides that, everything is pretty much fully self-funded, and we're doing a lot of fundraising and grant writing, and we got a beautiful grant from Young Arts, we're very grateful for.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, lots of work is being put into this, lots of fundraising, and I have a beautiful new company of seven dancers.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: The show will also premiere three new works by three composers.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so please come to Gisco on Sale May 1st and follow at moving forward dance on Instagram for all updates.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's so impressive.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: I am like already in awe.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: I hope you guys can come.
9:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I didn't know that you uh had a company, Maddie.
9:05
SPEAKER_05: That's amazing.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Doug.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Look at us, learn more about each other.
9:09
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
9:10
SPEAKER_02: All right, and our next special guest who is joining us on this episode is one of my oldest friends.
9:16
SPEAKER_02: I have known him for pretty much my entire life.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: We grew up dancing together at our studio known as Hotshots, National Dance Team, or Mid-Atlantic Center for the Performing Arts, which is still out there today, and they are fierce.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: And we just had the most fun together growing up.
9:35
SPEAKER_02: I love sharing my time with him, and it was so exciting for me as a friend to watch this person go on to have such a beautiful career in the concert dance space.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: And I've even had the chance to watch them perform um recently, uh a few years back with LA Dance Project.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to welcome my dear friend Doug Baum to the podcast.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Doug.
9:58
SPEAKER_05: Yes, hi, thank you so much for having me, Courtney.
10:01
SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh, this is full circle.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: It is full circle, and I I love being able to like bring, and I know Leslie and I both like love being able to bring friends in onto the podcast.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: It just feels so good to have it be a full circle moment and to like you know hear all about all of your success in your career and what you've learned in your career.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: And I knew this would be the perfect episode for you.
10:22
SPEAKER_02: So I'm really glad you were able to join us.
10:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, me too.
10:25
SPEAKER_05: And thanks for asking me to share because I'm so happy to be here and to do that just that.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: Yay.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: Well, Doug, same thing, just like Maddie.
10:33
SPEAKER_02: If you wouldn't mind telling us more about you, everyone obviously can probably put it together that you grew up in Maryland with me, but feel free to tell the world where you went from there and any career credits.
10:43
SPEAKER_05: Oh gosh, I have to talk about myself.
10:48
SPEAKER_05: Well, where to begin?
10:50
SPEAKER_05: Um, let's start at the very beginning.
10:53
SPEAKER_05: That's the great place to start.
10:54
SPEAKER_05: So, yeah, Courtney and I uh this was literally I had done a bunch of sports growing up, and then I decided that I needed to dance because I love to dance, and my mom was like, we need to get you in a dance class.
11:08
SPEAKER_05: So that's when I found um MCPA, and that's when I met Courtney.
11:12
SPEAKER_05: So that the very earliest stages was being a competition dancer with no technical training whatsoever.
11:20
SPEAKER_05: Couldn't point my feet.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: You can do backhand spring.
11:23
SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, I had tricks because I had done gymnastics and I had an athletic ability because I came from an athletic family.
11:30
SPEAKER_05: Fast forward, I did about three years of competition dance, and then I auditioned for Baltimore School for the Arts because I knew I wanted to get a little more serious into the hardcore training, if you will.
11:41
SPEAKER_05: So then I went to Baltimore School for the Arts, where I graduated, and then I went to Fordham University, aka the Ailey School, where I graduated in 2010.
11:52
SPEAKER_05: Wow, that's ages ago.
11:54
SPEAKER_05: That's where I got my uh BFA, and I apprenticed with Ailey too during that time, learned so much, worked with so many choreographers in New York, met so many people, started doing summer programs as I was graduating and went on to do springboard two years in a row.
12:14
SPEAKER_05: I did the Netherland Dance Theater, sorry, yeah, NDT summer program.
12:19
SPEAKER_05: I did movement invention project.
12:21
SPEAKER_05: I got my first professional job from Springboard with Jose Navas Company Flack.
12:27
SPEAKER_05: From there, I went and did Rock the Ballet with Ross and Thomas and Adrian Canterna, big shift.
12:32
SPEAKER_05: And then, let's see, went to ballet jazz after that for about six months, short contract, but did that.
12:39
SPEAKER_05: Also worked with Yuri Zukov, project-based company in San Francisco.
12:44
SPEAKER_05: I moved back to New York.
12:46
SPEAKER_05: I got a job with complexions after apprenticing with Perry Dance.
12:51
SPEAKER_05: And then left Complexions after three seasons, worked with Perry Dance again as a company member for a little bit, and then auditioned for LA Dance Project in New York.
13:02
SPEAKER_05: And then I moved out to LA in 2018 where I met Madison Hicks, and we danced together at LA Dance Project.
13:11
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, that was my I guess last company job, if you will.
13:18
SPEAKER_05: And then I got a job at USC as an adjunct lecturer.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: So are you officially retired?
13:23
SPEAKER_05: Oh retired.
13:24
SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's a oh, that's a little question.
13:28
SPEAKER_05: I guess the answer is yes and no, but I haven't really, yeah, been on stage that much.
13:34
SPEAKER_05: I was on stage last year in like November at the World Choreography Awards here in Los Angeles.
13:39
SPEAKER_05: Cool.
13:40
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:40
SPEAKER_05: So it was like a 10-month hiatus after leaving Los Angeles Dance Project before I like returned to the stage.
13:47
SPEAKER_05: And it was kind of like, mmm, do I really want to do this again?
13:52
SPEAKER_05: Or am I am I okay with everything that I've done?
13:55
SPEAKER_05: And am I like, I'm good.
13:56
SPEAKER_05: I'm good.
13:57
SPEAKER_05: You know, like it's time to transition away.
13:59
SPEAKER_05: It's time to now I'm teaching more than ever.
14:02
SPEAKER_05: I'm choreographing.
14:03
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
14:04
SPEAKER_05: So I guess in a sense, yeah, I feel I feel like I'm retired to some degree, which is nice, honestly.
14:12
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
14:12
SPEAKER_05: My body, my body after all these years was kind of speaking to me like, dude, we've we've done a lot and you've you've had you've had a good run.
14:21
SPEAKER_05: Like right.
14:21
SPEAKER_04: It'll tell you.
14:28
SPEAKER_05: What am I gonna do if I don't dance in a company or you know, I'm not on stage.
14:32
SPEAKER_05: It's like, well, it's inevitable.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, amazing.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: Well, you've had an amazing career, and I'm super proud of you.
14:39
SPEAKER_05: Oh, thank you.
14:41
SPEAKER_05: You're so sweet.
14:42
SPEAKER_05: I appreciate that.
14:43
SPEAKER_05: But you're you've also had an incredible career.
14:45
SPEAKER_05: Like you also have the accolades.
14:48
SPEAKER_05: You wouldn't be doing this if you didn't.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we wouldn't be here at making the impact if if Leslie and I didn't even get to meet.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: We wouldn't even know each other because Leslie and I go way back to our pro-ship days.
14:57
SPEAKER_04: So Okay.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: If you had stayed at uh Marymount, we would never have met.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: Nope.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: You're right.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: She left she left college to come do the contract that we did together.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: So everybody's path is the the way it's supposed to be.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: It's been laid out, and you know, now we're all just we're just on the ride.
15:15
unknown: Yes.
15:16
SPEAKER_05: Yes, exactly.
15:17
SPEAKER_05: And making the impact.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh man.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: And with that, why don't we jump into our episode?
15:26
SPEAKER_02: Let's jump into this fantastic chat about concert dance.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to learn from y'all because I definitely have dabbled in the concert dance world here and there earlier on in my career, but I definitely took a shift into more of the musical theater Broadway scene in my professional dance career.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited to learn from both of you.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, same.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: My background is very much more uh musical theater dance.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: I went to Oklahoma City University, so there's not a stitch of concert dance training there at all.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: So my question for you so if there's anybody out there, especially who comes from the competitive world who may be more, you know, less versed in what concert dance is even is, what what are the differences do you find between concert dance and commercial dance?
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Just generally speaking, I know that's a very large question.
16:13
SPEAKER_05: I think the difference for me, I guess the main highlight is just the structure and the content of what's being performed.
16:22
SPEAKER_05: I feel like the commercial world, it's it's very focused on like camera-oriented stuff or anything along those lines.
16:29
SPEAKER_05: Whereas I feel like concert dance is more of like the stage setting, installation pieces.
16:35
SPEAKER_05: I think most of the time it revolves around technique too.
16:39
SPEAKER_05: Like like the gram companies, uh Ailey, you have to have a very specific training to do that kind of work.
16:46
SPEAKER_05: So like if you're gonna dance with the gram company, you have to have studied gram.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: Right, right, right.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: You can't just walk in with your balletap jazz class and say, I could do this.
16:56
SPEAKER_05: I mean, some people I I feel like some people have or could.
17:00
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know.
17:01
SPEAKER_05: I mean, if I recall Madonna, even Madonna was like doing gram and Horton at the Ailey School, I believe, before she became this.
17:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
17:11
SPEAKER_05: So, and like when I think of concert dance, I guess the main company that comes to mind for me is like NDT, Netherlands Dance Theater, which they have like these huge sets on stage and they're like moving sets sometimes.
17:26
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, I think that differentiates from the con um like the commercial world, where that's very like musical theater, Broadway, music videos, or anything of that sort.
17:37
SPEAKER_05: So I think they kind of separate in terms of the presentation.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: I also feel like it almost feels like more theatrical and entertainment value in the commercial world versus artistic and producing art in the concert world and like like dance is always art, but it's like the actual viewer and the the purpose of the art is entirely different for commercial versus concert in my head.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if y'all feel that way.
18:07
SPEAKER_05: No, I think I think you're also you're absolutely right about that.
18:10
SPEAKER_05: And I think they're also targeting different audiences.
18:14
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Definitely, definitely.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: And I also feel like it has a lot to do with sometimes like length of process as well.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of concert works, we like a like premiere long shows, we spent a long time creating those shows.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously there's repertoire and all those things, but there's a lot of longer create processes versus you know, a lot of commercial gigs are two days or one week, which obviously there's pros and cons to both of those things as well.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: But I think that I'm sure we'll talk more about this, but we we we've all done it all and we can do it all.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: So I think that when I remember a lot of high school people are like, I don't know which track to go down, but we you can dabble in all the things.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's easier now to do that because we have more access to all types of training.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: I feel like 20, 25 years ago, you you really did have to pick, period, the end.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: But I do see now a lot of concert dancers and a lot of concert work even has kind of taken a little turn sometimes to be a little more commercialized because of the money aspect, because of the we need to bring in the younger audiences.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we make this relevant to the future of our audience?
19:22
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of the audience, you know, is donating money elsewhere or spending their money elsewhere.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's kind of a cool shift, too, to kind of blend the worlds a little bit.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
19:32
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I think they also they fall under this kind of umbrella, you know, where just because it's commercial and it's concert doesn't mean they can't be within the same parameters.
19:42
SPEAKER_05: You know, I think they're yeah, like they're drawing inspiration from all aspects, and I think they do bleed into one another at certain points, even though it does sometimes, I guess, in the dance world feel kind of like oil and water.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there's so much contemporary in commercial dance.
20:02
SPEAKER_05: Yes, right.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Like yes, that part to me it's it's so it's so laughable when we're like, what is contemporary dance?
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Or like what is commercial and what is concerning?
20:11
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's all very gray, very blurry.
20:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think we define it well with like the time length and the production stuff.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but besides that, I'm like contemporary is in everything, and we use contemporary in every gig nowadays.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's on Broadway even.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean I which is I think it's awesome.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, I I would love to create Broadway one day.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think it's great, but I just think it's uh it's a very diverse art form.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: Like it can go anywhere.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:39
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
20:40
SPEAKER_02: Which is good for all of our listeners out there because I think a lot of people think that if you want to be a contemporary dancer, your only path is concert dance.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that is the only path for you.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: I think there is, like you just said, contemporary in the commercial world.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: It's it's there.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would say that if you want more consistency, it's probably better to be a contemporary dancer in a company, in the company setting than commercially.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think that honestly, consistently in general, like there's not a lot of consistency in a commercial career because it doesn't matter what genre you're doing.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Whereas like that's one of the perks of being a con in the concert dance world is that if you make it into a company, usually you're in like a a locked-in contract for X amount of time, and that that secure that job security is really nice.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of people like that aspect.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious to go back to what you mentioned earlier, Maddie.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know what why you both chose the concert route for your professional careers, especially growing up as competitive dancers or in the competitive dance scene or dabbled in that when you were graduating from college.
21:52
SPEAKER_02: Why did you say I want to go concert?
21:55
SPEAKER_00: I feel like for a couple different reasons.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: I never really considered the commercial.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: world to be honest.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that I didn't feel like I belonged in it.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Like when I took classes in LA, I like I think you're just like your body knows.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Like your soul knows when it's in the wrong when it's in the wrong room.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: I would go into those classes and I would be like wrong room Maddie.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: You know you know who you are and also to connect a little bit more to the point I brought up about length like I and being a choreographer like I love in-depth processes and I loved if I wasn't choreographing one yet, I wanted to at least be in one.
22:35
SPEAKER_00: And anytime I did a commercial gig obviously loved the paycheck.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: But the like two day turnaround felt like a lack of creativity to me.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: Like there was no exploration.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: It was like learn the five six seven eight go film it get your paycheck.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Lots of pros to that.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: But for me I was like that doesn't fuel me.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm just here for the paycheck and nothing feels creative about this.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure I don't know what like I'm not the commercial world queen in any way.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's many settings that people have felt very creatively inspired.
23:08
SPEAKER_05: But anything but you did the yogurt commercial I did you did the yogurt commercial I can't like that was your like moment as well I need to see this yogurt commercial she was a freaking star of this like yogurt commercial it was hilarious but it was like the definition of just like a quick turnaround.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: I had a blast but it was like I learned with I678 and I did some musical theater in front of a camera and we went on with our lives.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: So so many great things about that.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: But yeah I just didn't feel like I was being creatively stimulated in the commercial world the way I wanted to.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Great.
23:45
SPEAKER_05: I definitely that resonates with me as well what Maddie said.
23:48
SPEAKER_05: And to piggyback on that I feel like when I started going to BSA and I chose to go to the arts high school I knew that I was being more serious about my training and where it was going to take me because and no offense to like the competition world or where we grew up and what we came from because our studio emphasized technique.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
24:09
SPEAKER_05: And that was really amazing which was only a catalyst for me to go to the arts high school get even more training that was going to prepare me to go I guess into the concert dance world.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:21
SPEAKER_05: Which and that was like you know getting a taste of that I was like oh like I can actually do this.
24:26
SPEAKER_05: Like this is something I enjoy doing and I I could also like see myself growing in a way that was going to be good for me down the road I guess to be successful.
24:38
SPEAKER_05: And I'm glad it did.
24:39
SPEAKER_05: I'm very glad it did.
24:41
SPEAKER_05: But uh but I think like when I went to the Ailey school and I was seeing all these concert dance pieces being done in New York like by the Ailey company or these other companies it kind of just opened the doors for me to do even more research to find out what I liked even more about those kinds of things.
25:00
SPEAKER_05: And and then I saw like NDT performances and I was like oh my God okay this is exactly what I want to do because it like Maddie said it really felt like uh stimulating for the soul if you will like the commercial I think it is more it's more about like the exposure sometimes or the paycheck or like what artists have you been working with what set have you been on and I think I think in the concert dance world it's that's not as important as like who what choreographers in front of the room or what who are you dancing next to and what piece are you dancing for audiences and like just to be specific there was like the Shannon Gillen piece that I did um pre-COVID at LA Dance project and it was the most physical piece I have ever done in my entire life like I was fighting for my life in this piece partnering two different girls a guy like and the piece was 30 minutes and it was just four of us and it was so demanding.
26:00
SPEAKER_05: Yeah oh yeah it was just I could never do yeah I was like right that's like a marathon I mean it was it was multiple things it wasn't just a marathon it was like a sprint with it was like a sprint within a marathon yeah within the marathon and then I felt like I was also like in a wrestling match a little bit but it was so it was so gratifying though to like come off after doing that and feel like wow you know that was so challenging that was so pushing me to the next level and I'm so glad I did that because at the end of the day I feel very fulfilled with the the with the I guess the choice to go down that path and without the training to back that up I don't really think it's like necessarily I don't want to say possible but yeah you kind of need that in your arsenal to do this kind of to do that kind of specific work I guess.
26:55
unknown: Yeah.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Well so speaking of that what like what are the types of skills like when people go to a concert dance a company audition I mean obviously if we're being very specific okay if you go to the Graham company that you know what they're looking for like those go to Ailey you know what they're doing like right but like you know there's there's like your company Maddie for example when you're hiring people what are you looking for what are people looking for when people go into these kind of auditions because it it is a different world yeah than you know slate your name and do your time step and you know what are your skills.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: You know it's a I'm sure it's different.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: I've never been there but I'm sure it's not that right I would say it's a lot at least from my experience and then also auditioning people now I would say it's so much about bringing all of yourself to the table and saying this is who I am this is what I bring this is how I'm different.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: You either like jam with that or you don't like it's a lot more open and free.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: I think we are a lot further away from like a typecasting kind of world I wouldn't say fully like I still very much stand by the fact that like we're making a company we want a unified look maybe we want a unified height maybe like oh we're replacing someone that's five two let's make sure the the female identifying person is also five two like there's a little bit of that but I think the majority is just a lot of especially creative based companies that are going to be like creating work commissioning work because there's also rep style companies so something to think about there.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: But a lot of the creative more creative uh choreographic based companies I think just want creative minds open minds people that are gonna walk into the space and be an open vessel be willing to contribute be willing to collaborate so I would say it's a lot more just about like bringing yourself to the table and being open in an audition like they want to see the people that are going to be like I can I'm ready to do that like do you do you have an idea I have an idea like being open to sharing dialoguing I look for that a lot like I love playing around an improv task and seeing what people think about it.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: If I ask a question and they don't want to answer that to me is like well I don't know how I'm gonna work on a creative process with you for three months if you can't dialogue with me about it.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: So I I care a lot about voice and Sidra who I worked with cares a lot about voice and I think that like was instilled in me my processes at Juilliard in college a lot about voice.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: Like I think you should be open and willing to communicate with the people you're collaborating with.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: Well how much does like technique catch your eye are you even considering those people that are the eager speakers in the room but if what if their technique isn't up to par, but you like their enthusiasm and you like that they're excited and eager to speak but unfortunately you're you're just not you don't have the style or quality of movement or technique isn't there yet.
29:51
SPEAKER_05: Good question.
29:52
SPEAKER_05: Good question.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: For me it's a lot about detail which I think is technique in a you know in a sense like my work is very detailed and being like having the training and having the technical training to be able to listen and see and replicate and understand detail if I'm doing like a D D D D D and they're like a do dee do D right a different D D very different.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: It's a different D cancer math I mean I was like podcast I can't give a visual right now but we understand the D D we surely do.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: We get the D D D you know so yeah I had a couple people just being honest and frank that I loved and could tell that they can learn a lot and they will get there but they're all slower the details and I hired a few understudies that like I believe in and I think we'll get there.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of how I handled that situation.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: But yeah I definitely look for technique and quality and detail and I definitely think that's also our experience from auditioning we we have you gotta keep up.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah you gotta keep up that's true.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: Doug I'm I want to hear your perspective on the what is needed in the auditions but also if you can bring in some of the male perspective too as far as like what's a what is needed.
31:05
SPEAKER_05: Love that right yeah I guess from my experience I think being a male dancer you already kind of have an advantage and I hate to say that but it's true.
31:15
SPEAKER_05: In the dance world just by being a male or a male identifying dancer in the room I feel like you're already you know at an advantage just because it's a smaller yeah you've stuck it out a smaller you've stuck it out that long you're still there you're one of the ones that's still there with all the crap for so long whereas all the women are like we're still here because we're all still here we're just all here but they're exactly yeah and like I I just remember auditioning most of the time there were always more women obviously than men in the audition unless like for LA Dance Project they had a whole separate audition just for the guys.
31:54
SPEAKER_05: Wow so and there were like 70 guys in the audition in New York.
31:58
SPEAKER_05: Wow that's a lot so yeah and that was that was an interesting twist for me on like the normal setup of auditions because it was only guys in the room.
32:07
SPEAKER_05: Yeah you know and so it was all this like male energy competing wow in the same space.
32:14
SPEAKER_05: So that was that was really interesting to go through that but I think in general yeah being a guy it kind of separates you already from the rest.
32:25
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32:44
SPEAKER_02: New Century Dance Project focuses on teaching the craft of choreography and why it's important for both choreographers and the dancer.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: Festival components include a choreography intensive for dancers ages 15 to 24, a choreography competition, concert performances, and community outreach events.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: The seven-day intensive starts every day with a technique class.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: After that, participants will head into classes and seminars that aid in the choreographic process such as compositional technique, improv, use of props, music selection, partnering, lighting and design, and so much more.
33:18
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33:24
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33:41
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33:46
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33:55
SPEAKER_01: Learn more on their website at New CenturyDanceproject.org is there like a heavy expectation of you already knowing how to partner already knowing how to execute a lot of different lifts with different people and things like that?
34:14
SPEAKER_05: Yes and I wasn't always the best at that either like that wasn't my strong suit.
34:19
SPEAKER_05: I had to really work on that and so that was a weak point for me in auditions is when I would get to the partnering and then I was like oh shoot like I'm not really standing out in this moment.
34:31
SPEAKER_05: You know I'm kind of like the weak link.
34:33
SPEAKER_05: So I really had to work on that aspect of myself and like even Maddie knows when we joined LA Dance Project we had to do that gram duet together.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: I was just about to say Doug is a fantastic partner so I don't know what he's saying.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: I was like waiting for my moment to creep in on that Doug and I did a gram duet together.
34:51
SPEAKER_05: We did but and I wanted to talk it was hard and I wanted to talk about that moment because Maddie and I joined at very different times in like our careers and our lives.
35:02
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
35:03
SPEAKER_05: So I had already I had been with a few companies at this point.
35:06
SPEAKER_05: I was in like you know the latter half of my career and Maddie's fresh out of school.
35:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:12
SPEAKER_05: So I had I had more experience at that point.
35:14
SPEAKER_05: I felt more confident and comfortable partnering at this point.
35:18
SPEAKER_05: So thank you Maddie for saying that okay I was about to say yeah but in the early stages of my career I didn't I didn't really feel that confident like I did when I when I met you at LADP and she's she's standing on the backs of my legs I'm like face down on the floor and she has to do this like squat on the back of my legs like standing on my hands.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: He was like laying flat and he like curled his legs up and so I had to stand on his hamstrings and then do a slow squat on his hamstrings where like no no matter how strong you are that's not a and I'm like I'm like face down like how can I help Maddie like what can I do what can I do for you she's like and I just remember Matt being like well just relax please don't fidget okay yeah I could yeah I can do I can do that as a partner but sorry we're a little off track.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: No I love it.
36:15
SPEAKER_05: I think the initial question was being a male and going to these auditions right for like concert dance companies.
36:22
SPEAKER_05: And I think what if I was in the front of the room as a director or somebody who's like you know looking for dancers I think I would want somebody who's uh unique knows themselves and like lets that stand out like their personality is going to show and what sets them apart from other people in in terms of like training quality like Maddie said attention to detail also being able to pick things up quickly that's a big one.
36:51
SPEAKER_05: Yeah and being and being able to take the note take the note y'all like yeah take the note and apply it take the note and apply it that's what we would say you know and again like when I was younger I had to learn all these things because I was just stubborn and arrogant and I didn't really apply those things and I noticed that that was hurting me in auditions.
37:16
SPEAKER_05: I was like oh okay this is something I really need to work on and I really need to focus on so that so that people aren't just looking at me as another body in space or just another person who's like I just need a job.
37:29
SPEAKER_04: Right.
37:29
SPEAKER_04: Right.
37:30
SPEAKER_05: You know it's more like no I want to be here because this is the work that interests me and I feel like I can grow here as a dancer.
37:38
SPEAKER_05: If we're if we're talking about like companies.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: Well that's really like amazing on you to notice that like and and to make a change because there's so many dancers who won there's so many dancers who will never ever figure out what's not working for me in the room.
37:55
SPEAKER_02: I guess I'm just not good and they'll quit and they'll just give up and because whatever their mindset is but you were like what's going on there's something here that I need to fix.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: I need to figure this out maybe it's this let me shift this perspective and boom it worked for you.
38:10
SPEAKER_05: Like that's just I mean I I'm assuming it did probably like I mean you've yes yes but also like work ethic you know yeah it's re it's it's the recognition and yourself because I feel like some people will go in and be like oh it's not me they just you know are looking for somebody else or it's typecasted or we make excuses for our ourselves.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:36
SPEAKER_05: And I think what I was trying my best to realize in that moment is like okay what can I do differently and what what can I change so that this doesn't keep happening.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: Right.
38:49
SPEAKER_01: So well and that's important that's an important skill for even the dancers that are listening today to to learn is that that self-evaluation.
38:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: You know like you can go to a competition and hear in one ear out the other whatever the critique is your teacher can say it.
39:03
SPEAKER_04: Right.
39:03
SPEAKER_01: But like when it comes down to it you you're the one who has to find the things that you can fix because nobody else can fix them but you so I do think that the young, the youth the youth as of today need to need to hear that because it's yeah you know your your best can be generated from you.
39:19
SPEAKER_05: Yeah I also think that you're responsible I'm assuming you're up sorry sorry Matty no no no no it's fine.
39:25
SPEAKER_05: No I just think uh you know you're responsible you have to hold yourself accountable.
39:29
SPEAKER_05: I feel like today we talk accountability right so then don't make excuses hold yourself accountable yeah and every time you go and you go to that audition you don't get it you come back yeah right and you show them that you've been working on yourself.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: Right and some things are out of your hands sometimes it is we just need someone who's five two the end you're five seven and you're amazing and we love you and you're so good and you're five seven that's it sometimes that's yeah you can't work on it but like be be introspective enough to realize when that's the case and when it is something you're doing because there's there's there's reasons you know there's moments you can figure that out.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: I loved when you when you were talking about like your I don't have to use this word but like your ego and stuff.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot about ego like ego lives in us.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: It's toned up it's turned up it's turned down in everything especially as dancers.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Right we all have our ego and I think our ego can be our worst enemy but I something that was like a big shift in my career and something I think about now on the other side when I'm leading a room is you don't realize when you're a dancer and you're in like a long creative process like sometimes we wear LATP how little anything has to do with you.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: And like your like it's not I'm sorry.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: It's not the crackest problem to come over and stroke your ego.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: It's just not and that's the biggest biggest learning experience for me where like looking back and even being a kid obviously the kid as a kid you don't understand this but getting older and stuff the moments where I was like so like so and so saying something that I thought was snappy at me really had nothing to do with me.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: Like they have a piece to make they have a product to fish doesn't mean they don't care about you like let's go have Kiki at lunch but in the room like take leave your ego out.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: We're making a piece we don't we like engineers I I bet don't go in and like working on a making a chip and they're like someone hurt my feelings because they didn't like my idea of the chip today.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Like it's really asked he's an engineer I'd be like dad do you get upset about this no I just think like or injuries like when I was a kid I used to be terrified to tell my teacher and then it was like now when someone comes up to me and they're terrified tell me I'm like this is your injury like why are you terri I couldn't no offense and I hope James in a good way I go home and I forget about this injury like so it's like we carry this weight like we think our teachers and our choreographers and our bosses are like sitting around all night thinking about yeah and like once I release that I know I know some things I'm saying could sound negative but once I release that and was really like we're here to do a job and we're doing our best it my ego like calms down.
42:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah and I think again to piggyback on the ego comment it's also important to note that in auditions you don't want your ego to be displayed you want your confidence to be displayed you know because when ego's involved I think and that's when it's like personal or people take things personally and that's when it gets convoluted and and it's not about the work.
42:31
SPEAKER_04: Right.
42:31
SPEAKER_05: You know it's about it's about me and that's not that's not the focus.
42:35
SPEAKER_05: Like we're a part of a collective especially in company work or in the concert dance world I think because most of the time if it's not a solo then you're dancing with other people.
42:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
42:46
SPEAKER_05: So so your ego's got to be checked check your ego at the door.
42:50
SPEAKER_03: That's it.
42:51
SPEAKER_05: So that so so that the work can get done and that we can enjoy the work that we're doing and we can enjoy what we're doing with each other.
42:59
SPEAKER_05: And and like in in the commercial world because like I've done music videos like with complexions I did like a Jill Scott music video and some other commercial things right but uh it's it's different.
43:11
SPEAKER_05: It's just it's not the same as like if you're gonna if you're gonna do the same piece maybe like 14 times within two weeks at a a certain venue.
43:20
SPEAKER_05: Or or another thing with concert dance was like the touring.
43:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah let's talk about it like yeah let's talk about it.
43:28
SPEAKER_05: Well Maddie and I I believe we did a Hawaii tour our first that was that was like I mean that sounds like a dream hello that's a dream.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh that was there's like there's like these rules when you tour or with a with a great company like LADP is where they like respect your like if you travel a day you don't work that day or the next day.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Or like there's like you know there's rules in like the Broadway unions and stuff too about that kind of stuff.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: Totally totally so it's similar to that.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: So we would go on the Long, much further, like Hong Kong Europe tours where like those days were really needed because we were super jet-lagged and all these things.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: When we went to Hawaii, we took a 20-minute hopper plane and then we landed, and then we had that whole day, and then the day after the recoup.
44:23
SPEAKER_05: Anyways, but um other tours are not yeah, I was gonna say they're not all like that.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
44:28
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, no, that's the most important and not not all yeah.
44:32
SPEAKER_05: That was the most like that was the pinnacle, the apex of like, is this really how tour life can be?
44:38
SPEAKER_05: Right.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, and there was some there were some really hard tours.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: I remember I was laying on the beach though in Hawaii when I like got my scholarship to CalArts, and I was like, Well, this is a hard decision now because right now I'm on the beach.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: But, anyways, yeah, no, touring is great.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: I think the hardest thing is like it's a dream.
44:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a dream come true to travel the world and do what you love.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: Things I struggled with was like health things.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: Like I have an autoimmune disease, so sometimes traveling is challenging.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: Um flying obviously adds a lot to the stress of your body and then injuries, and then like show after show after show.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Like I remember some of our parents like weeks of shows where like just I would just say I'd get through the night.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, really, really, really hard stuff.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, I mean touring is amazing, but it's hard.
45:26
SPEAKER_05: It is, but it also and in my mind, it kind of separates the ones who can like keep up, you know, and who are willing, you know, who are willing to like put up with a grueling schedule to be traveling to these different stages throughout the world or wherever.
45:43
SPEAKER_05: And like I have a friend from LA Dance Project, her name's Sierra Herrera, she's incredible.
45:48
SPEAKER_05: She's back on tour with Madonna, and she's been doing that world tour.
45:52
SPEAKER_05: So there's like that commercial in the commercial world, you also have like Beyonce tour, Taylor Swift, right?
45:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, like touring is hard in general for everyone.
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, right.
46:02
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
46:03
SPEAKER_05: But I think uh my point, I guess, is like with concert dance and commercial, they're the tours are still happening, but they're kind of a different setup.
46:13
SPEAKER_05: You know, it's not it's not the same.
46:15
SPEAKER_05: And I probably budgetwise.
46:16
SPEAKER_05: I don't know if that's for better for yeah, budget-wise.
46:19
SPEAKER_05: Oh, absolutely.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're probably not getting like first class flights and five-star hotels with a concert dance tour, whereas maybe if you're Taylor Swift's dancer, maybe that's in your contract.
46:30
SPEAKER_05: Like, oh yeah, oh yeah.
46:32
SPEAKER_05: I mean, it depends on which company you work with.
46:35
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's also like dependent on who you're working for and what kind of contract they have going on with um their agency.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, and also the amount of people in a in a concert dance company.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how many people are we talking?
46:50
SPEAKER_05: Uh from the smaller ones, you can have anything from like Maddie, where she has what, like seven dancers, six or seven, and then you know, you have like Paris Opera, which is like a hundred and fixty or something.
47:04
SPEAKER_05: I think they have one of the the largest concert dance companies.
47:08
SPEAKER_05: Wow.
47:09
SPEAKER_05: Where it's like a hundred a hundred and sixty dancers contracted.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: Ailey's a large company, right?
47:14
SPEAKER_02: Ailey's pretty big.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean Yeah, I would say like an average is like 20 to 30, right?
47:20
SPEAKER_00: Would you say it's like an average company?
47:22
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
47:22
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean, I think it's more like I guess 15.
47:26
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's kind of where my mind was thinking.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's a very small amount of people, like if you really think about it.
47:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, and that's the same with like a lot of Broadway shows and even like touring, like a lot of artists who have touring dancers, like it's a if people are listening, like fifteen spots in a dance company, right?
47:45
SPEAKER_02: Like seven girls male male identifying, seven female identifying, like that's it, y'all.
47:52
SPEAKER_02: And you have to s sometimes people like re and I wanted to ask this question actually now that I'm now that we're here, what is it how does the contract work, the duration of the job?
48:04
SPEAKER_02: Are dancers getting brought on for an entire season, an entire year, or are the and are they able to renew their contract?
48:11
SPEAKER_02: Do they have to be invited to renew their contract?
48:14
SPEAKER_02: Like, how long can you stay with the dance company?
48:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't I truly don't even really know how that works.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: Do you have to like re-audition at the end of each year, or are you just invited back?
48:23
SPEAKER_01: There's lots of laughter and grins happening, listeners.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: I think the dog can answer that more in depth, but I'll just say, like, my quick experience.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: Often there's different contracts.
48:34
SPEAKER_00: Like there's a guest contract, sometimes there's an apprentice contract, so sometimes you come on for one project, uh, but tip typically, or at least what I've experienced, you're offered a year.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: And or within that year, to be clear, it's like a certain amount of weeks, or like it obviously depends on the contract.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: But if you sign to like six months or twelve months or whatever it is, I would kind of say at the end of the year they kind of evaluated you all a year.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like how you're how you've been in the studio, how your work ethic has been, how you performed, if you yeah, all of those things that like you're valued on as a normal job, I'm assuming.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of the year, it's kind of like a discussion.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: If you want to stay, if you're offered to stay.
49:18
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: You can speak on more of that.
49:21
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
49:21
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, it does vary.
49:23
SPEAKER_05: Uh I've done everything from like a six-month contract that wasn't renewed just because of what they needed at the time.
49:31
SPEAKER_05: Or like Maddie said, it's pretty seasonal work.
49:34
SPEAKER_05: So like a season will start in August and it will end in July.
49:38
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
49:39
SPEAKER_05: Or, you know, typically a year, but like Maddie said, you can be guaranteed anything from like 30 weeks to 40 weeks, depending on which company you work for.
49:48
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, the evaluations are ever never they're everlasting.
49:54
SPEAKER_05: So yeah.
49:56
SPEAKER_05: From just constantly happening.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes, like every day.
50:00
SPEAKER_01: Well, and so and when you when you're talking about a season, that's not a perform, like a chunk of that is learning the material, a chunk of that is rehearsing the material, and a chunk of that is performing the material, right?
50:11
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: You know, like I think with like Broadway, you you learn the material and then you do it, and then you have brush-ups and you have put ins and you have whatever else during the that part, but like y'all are kind of like, we learn it, we rehearse it, we do it.
50:23
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you have brush-ups and things like that as well, right?
50:26
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
50:26
SPEAKER_05: Yes, and to add on to that, you also within these concert dance companies, most of the time, you're gonna have a lot of different pieces too.
50:36
SPEAKER_05: Like it's repertoire.
50:37
SPEAKER_05: So you're changing from one you're constantly putting on different hats and having to jump into multiple different pieces that are not of the same, you know.
50:48
SPEAKER_01: And maybe that you haven't visited in a while.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, here's this piece we're doing, and nobody's seen it for five weeks.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh, for sure.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: That's very normal.
50:57
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's crazy.
50:59
SPEAKER_05: Yep, yeah, that part too.
51:00
SPEAKER_00: It'll be like uh like a lot of tours that we were on, even we would do like a you a lot of companies like do a certain program and then switch to another program, and maybe program B or program C, they haven't touched for like three months.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, there's a lot of things to touch, so there's only so many hours, so many hours a day, including each other, because you have to partner with one another.
51:24
SPEAKER_05: Good.
51:25
SPEAKER_05: I feel like you have to touch each other's hearts, you have to touch the audience's hearts.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: I feel like that's where like competitive dance could come into like help a concert dancer because of the amount of like dances you learn growing up at for competition through your years, and like, you know, maybe you haven't done this one in a few weeks or whatever it is, or it's just you've ingrained it into your brain from so many rehearsals that you can like revisit that part of your brain and pull that choreography out, or helping you learn choreography quickly and remembering it and retaining it, or applying those details things in rehearsals.
52:01
SPEAKER_02: But I think the difference is is that a dance competition dance is two minutes long, and some of these pieces of work are 15 minutes to 30 minutes in length.
52:09
SPEAKER_02: So and not leaving like you might leave the stage for like a minute and you're back.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: Like did the stamina that is required to execute.
52:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah, yeah.
52:18
SPEAKER_05: Because I remember with dancing with complexions.
52:22
SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh.
52:25
SPEAKER_05: The amount of time I had off stage versus on stage, whoa, quite the differential.
52:31
SPEAKER_05: Like I remember going off for maybe like a minute, if that to catch my breath, and that was it for like a for like a 40-minute piece.
52:38
SPEAKER_04: No big deal.
52:39
SPEAKER_04: Wow, salti room.
52:41
SPEAKER_00: That's I also think that the the auditioning in the competition world definitely helped me as well.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, in uh I feel like I know so many people that didn't.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: Now I have a mentor program, and a lot of my mentees are not in the competition world, and a lot of them get to college auditions and they're like baffled and so stressed and don't know.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: Like one of my assistants, she's uh she was my mentee and I adore her.
53:06
SPEAKER_00: She was just like came to me one day and was just like, I don't understand like how to audition.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how I'm getting caught.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, and I was like, Well, what are you doing?
53:12
SPEAKER_00: Trying to teach I treat like a class, and I was like, Okay.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think that like the the auditioning really taught me a lot, and I think helped me a lot in my career.
53:24
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
53:24
SPEAKER_02: That's really great advice, and that's really interesting to hear as well.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: So before we continue our chat, I have some sad news, and that is that Maddie has to leave us on this discussion already, and you have contributed so much, and I'm so grateful that you were able to squeeze us into your busy schedule.
53:41
SPEAKER_02: But you have a rehearsal to catch, and I want to make sure that you get there on time.
53:46
SPEAKER_02: So Maddie, if you could share one final thought about the topic today, which is concert dance.
53:52
SPEAKER_02: So it can be speaking to dancers out there, you can be speaking to you can talk to the studio owners on like how to better prepare dancers for a concert career.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, you can talk to uh dancers who are in college about to break into the professional world, whoever you want to talk to.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: Wow, okay.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I can do one sentence, but I'll try to keep it short.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: I just want to encourage the dancers to pave their own way in whatever that means to them.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to follow any type of specific guideline you think you need to follow.
54:24
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to follow anyone's specific career, specific trajectory, find what you love, find what you want to do, be inspired by those people and see what you want to do with that.
54:34
SPEAKER_00: Be open to training programs and colleges.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: I think they can open so many doors.
54:41
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes if you feel like you don't know a lot about them, ask your questions, do your research, find your amazing teachers, maybe at a convention or something that have had that type of career, and ask them about programs, ask them about school, ask them about summer programs, like get out of your bubble, and whatever you do, you're gonna achieve.
55:02
SPEAKER_05: Amen.
55:03
SPEAKER_05: Well said, Maddie.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Maddie.
55:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I love you guys.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: I love you guys.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: Bye.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Great job.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
55:09
SPEAKER_05: Bye, Maddie.
55:10
SPEAKER_05: Love you.
55:11
SPEAKER_02: I have another question, and this is actually a little, you know, you can tell me if you want to tell me, but uh since we're in the contract now, is it a is an intimate question?
55:22
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not intimate.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, it's a personal, I guess, sort of, but more general.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: Money.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: How much money do these concert dancers make on a contract?
55:34
SPEAKER_02: Is it a weekly salary?
55:35
SPEAKER_02: Is it an annual salary?
55:37
SPEAKER_02: Is it uh hourly rate?
55:39
SPEAKER_01: Is it yeah, is it a is it thank you for your contribution?
55:43
SPEAKER_01: I love you.
55:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
55:45
SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm gonna do that.
55:47
SPEAKER_05: Let me tell you.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
55:54
SPEAKER_05: So basically, let's start at the beginning after like going to the Ailey Fordham program.
56:00
SPEAKER_05: I was apprenticing with Ailey too.
56:02
SPEAKER_01: And you got that through an audition.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: It didn't just happen because you were there.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: Like I think people have that kind of thing too.
56:08
SPEAKER_05: You okay.
56:09
SPEAKER_05: It it does everybody do that.
56:11
SPEAKER_05: It kind of happened because I was there.
56:14
SPEAKER_02: Like I've got invited to the apprentice of Ailey 2 because you were at Fordham and they liked what you were doing.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: And so This is not an everybody who goes to the Fordham Ailey program gets to do this.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: This still this still constitutes a being chosen or being uh an audition-ish.
56:29
SPEAKER_01: Yes, okay yes.
56:30
SPEAKER_05: So they know who you are, they they talk, everybody talks, you know.
56:35
SPEAKER_05: So they know what you're capable of, and they'll like invite you into the room to work with the people who are part of Ailey too, you know, and see if you're fit for the apprenticeship.
56:46
SPEAKER_05: And so then back to pay.
56:48
SPEAKER_05: Obviously, no pay there.
56:49
SPEAKER_05: Like no apprentice pay, okay.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
56:51
SPEAKER_01: You you're just lucky.
56:53
SPEAKER_05: Yes, but and you're lucky in that setting, but there are companies that do have paid apprenticeships.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
56:59
SPEAKER_05: You know, not all of them, some of them do, um, if you're lucky.
57:04
SPEAKER_01: And we're not talking living wage pay, we're talking token of appreciation pay.
57:09
SPEAKER_05: Oh, yes.
57:10
SPEAKER_05: For most of the time, yes.
57:12
SPEAKER_05: And that means you're getting a side job just to put food on the table for yourself.
57:16
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
57:17
SPEAKER_05: Or, you know, your parents have to provide for you, or you know, but what whatever means.
57:22
SPEAKER_05: Like I I've been I've been offered apprenticeships quite a few times, and there were times when I turned it down because I'm like, no, I have to go get a job that's actually gonna be able to pay my bills.
57:33
SPEAKER_02: Right.
57:34
SPEAKER_02: And because you want that to be your job, you don't want that to be a that's why I think there's that stigma of dance, because you sometimes the job that you're doing can't actually f support you in life with the salary that it's offering, and that is okay to say no if it's not going to work in your life where you're like, listen, I'm trying to make a career out of this, and I understand there's like stepping stones to get to this dream company of mine where I'm gonna have to make financial sacrifices to get there, but at the same time, like I need to be able to pay my rent in New York City and eat.
58:09
SPEAKER_02: Those are like the two requirements.
58:12
SPEAKER_02: And how many how much sacrifice are you willing to make to make this dream?
58:16
SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's a tough thing to to navigate.
58:18
SPEAKER_05: Oh, absolutely.
58:20
SPEAKER_05: And I think they're also like watching to see how you handle that.
58:24
SPEAKER_05: It's like if if you really want to be here, if this is the company that you're really interested in, are you willing to make those sacrifices?
58:31
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
58:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
58:32
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, and it's it's hard.
58:35
SPEAKER_05: It's just, you know, so like they say it's a doggy dog world out there because there are hundreds and thousands of dancers vying for the same jobs, even if it's just an apprenticeship, or it's like just getting your foot in the door at all for a I want to say, kind of like bare minimum pay.
58:53
SPEAKER_01: Right.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: And now, with with any of these jobs, are you getting any sort of benefits, any health insurance for the for the bigger contracts for like your people who are seasonal alien, alien dancers work the whole season, right?
59:05
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
59:06
SPEAKER_05: So in that in that respect, and I meant to touch on this topic, so with like Ailey or Ballet Hispanico or ABT or New York City Ballet, these are Agma companies.
59:17
SPEAKER_05: So they they are union, they have healthcare, they have benefits, they have maybe even like paid time off or you know, six-pay maternity leave.
59:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, those kind of luxuries, but the majority of companies don't have that.
59:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
59:33
SPEAKER_05: Like to put things in perspective, it wasn't even when I went to LA Dance Project, I didn't have benefits until COVID happened.
59:43
SPEAKER_05: And then we we had this wonderful dancer who left the company, Rochelle.
59:49
SPEAKER_05: She was a grant writer for the company, and we finally got benefits because she wrote a grant and we got a grant.
59:56
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
59:57
SPEAKER_05: But but before that, we didn't we didn't have any benefits through the company.
1:00:01
SPEAKER_05: And every other company that I worked with, and this is probably gonna turn a lot of people off to concert dance now that I'm saying this out loud, but it's true.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_05: Um, all the companies I worked for leading up to that no benefits.
1:00:14
SPEAKER_03: Really?
1:00:14
SPEAKER_05: And it was it was basically a weekly salary, and then there was also points when we weren't working, so we were on layoff, and you're not getting you have to collect unemployment during that time.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_05: Because and it sucks, but like a lot of concert dance companies are not funded, like New York City ballets or ABT or Ailey, like these bigger companies have bigger donors and a bigger, a bigger community to support them, and that's why they thrive and survive because they have the necessary funding or they're getting the grants, and a lot of these smaller companies that I've worked for in the past, that's not the case.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_05: And so you can only provide so much.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_05: But as an artist, again, it's like, are you willing to make these sacrifices to do what you love, to travel the world, right?
1:01:07
SPEAKER_05: To to grace the stages in front of these audiences all over the world.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_05: And like they don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but we do.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_05: We know that, like, you know, is my rent gonna be paid on time?
1:01:20
SPEAKER_05: Ugh.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_05: Right.
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1:02:24
SPEAKER_01: And the sacrifice might be living with four other people when you're 30.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: The sacrifice might be, you know, yeah, I have to pay into the healthcare system myself because dancers need healthcare.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: It's like we can't just sit around and hope that you're not gonna get injured or hope that you're not gonna need PT.
1:02:39
SPEAKER_02: There's gonna be workmen's comp though, right?
1:02:41
SPEAKER_02: If you get injured.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_05: Yes, yes, because contractually, like that has to be included.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, otherwise they're under they're gonna be under some legal scrutiny because you can't like you're working a physical job where you're prone to getting absolutely absolutely and you know I was gonna say effed up.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_05: Like that comes that comes with the territory, like there is a chance that that can happen.
1:03:04
SPEAKER_05: And you know, as dancers, I feel like we train so hard to not let that happen because our livelihood depends on it.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_05: And there was one more thing I wanted to say about that, and it really bugs me that in this country, in America, healthcare is such a like like it's why is it just not universal?
1:03:22
SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_05: Like it would it would solve so many problems for like so many people, and also yeah, this is like a political plug right now, but it really is because uh it upsets me that a lot of these companies can't provide, but what's the government doing?
1:03:39
SPEAKER_05: Why can't we just have universal health care?
1:03:40
SPEAKER_05: Then then the issue's gone.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_05: You know?
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: It's a struggle we deal with often.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's such a concern of parents, even for people going into commercial dance Broadway.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: You know, if if you're lucky, you get enough, you work enough as a union actor or dancer to get health care.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: It's all tied to your job, which is the way it is for everybody's job, sadly, no, no matter if you're a performer or not.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: But like this is a big piece of reality that you have to consider is are you willing to not have healthcare or pay out the wazoo for it if you're going that track?
1:04:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe maybe you're lucky enough to have some kind of side job somehow that you can do that provides those benefits and allows you to work for a company, but those are few and far between.
1:04:22
SPEAKER_01: And some, you know, like you said, people have to make set sacrifices, and those sacrifices look really different to make anything happen.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_05: Uh but the difference is the the people who are dancing with these companies in Europe, that's not an issue.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:04:37
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:04:38
SPEAKER_01: And you see a lot of dancers head on over.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_02: So you've got some work in Europe because it's better to work there, which is a a wonderful scene of concert dance in Europe, and Europe appreciates this art form and funds this art form.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_01: The government does, yeah.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_05: And taxpaying dollars do.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_02: So, like, but a lot of the very well-known dance companies, uh, the scene of that does exist in Europe, and I think that is another, you know, for dancers out there to understand the world.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_02: What is that one Springboard or something?
1:05:13
SPEAKER_05: Or yeah.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_05: Oh, I've because I've done Springboard twice.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_05: There were I do I did Springboard two years in a row.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_05: And the first year I did Springboard, I got a job.
1:05:23
SPEAKER_05: That was my first professional job, was with Jose Navas company Flack because I worked with him at Springboard.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_05: And so that was a segue into my first concert dance company job.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_02: And that was it's like um it's can you explain what Springboard is and who it's for?
1:05:39
SPEAKER_05: Yes, and hopefully Springboard appreciates me as an alumni doing putting this in there because I I told other dancers about this now, like at Chapman and at USC where I teach.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_05: And it's it's not okay, so it's been going on for several years, but they're taking a little high gauge because.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_05: They're moving Springboard from Montreal where it's always happened, and they're relocating it to the US now.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
1:06:07
SPEAKER_05: And basically, Springboard is this.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_05: And Springboard is this platform for all these dancers that really love concert dance, right?
1:06:15
SPEAKER_05: And they want to work with concert dance choreographers or companies.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_05: So you get accepted into Springboard and then you get picked to work with a particular company that's participating at Springboard.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_05: And then there's a showcase.
1:06:29
SPEAKER_05: So then a lot of people, I don't want to say, sorry, not a lot, but a good amount of people are getting jobs from doing this summer program that is Springboard.
1:06:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_05: Because you're working with up-and-coming choreographers, or you're working with choreographers that already have a company, or they have projects, and they're looking for dancers.
1:06:47
SPEAKER_05: Wow.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_01: So it's just like a big meeting place kind of opportunity to get exposed to all these different opportunities.
1:06:54
SPEAKER_01: And for opportunity.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_05: An opportunity within an opportunity that leads to other opportunities, hopefully.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_05: Not for everybody.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_05: And you know, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be real honest.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_05: It's you know, it's not like they have a hundred jobs for a hundred dancers, but you're also meeting other people that are in the same pool as you.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_05: And that was what was so incredible was the community.
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_05: And Springboard, I love Springboard so much because what they're doing is incredible.
1:07:22
SPEAKER_05: And they are creating a platform, they have a platform that is trying to assist and elevate within the concert dance world people who really want to be there.
1:07:33
SPEAKER_01: Is it associated with a certain company?
1:07:35
SPEAKER_01: Like who's in charge?
1:07:36
SPEAKER_01: Who who created it?
1:07:38
SPEAKER_05: The woman in charge is Alexandra Wells, and uh she was a teacher at Juilliard, and then she like Sidra Bell has been a part of Springboard, Kyle Abraham.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_05: Uh, I'm not sure if you're familiar with these choreographers within the concert dance world, but I'm not.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_01: So these are new names for Montreal.
1:07:57
SPEAKER_01: I've heard of them.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_05: And then like there are Montreal-based companies that are usually a part of Springboard, but then there's also the US ones or international ones.
1:08:08
SPEAKER_05: So they've grown and expanded a lot over the years.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_05: And it is it is a segue for younger dancers or even older dancers that yeah, are looking for jobs within the concert dance world.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_01: That's that's awesome.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: And I've never heard of that before.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_01: So that's so cool for a new, you know, just a new thing to know about to be able to recommend.
1:08:31
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
1:08:32
SPEAKER_01: It's been around for a while.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, it was it has, and it has quite the rapport because it's it's top-notch as far as summer programs go.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_05: You know, you're not, I don't want to say just going to learn, you're going for the experience, you're going for a potential job.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: And to have all those networking connections and the community and absolutely just like we say all the time, your competitors at competition will be your peers and could be the people who hire you eventually.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_01: Same thing there.
1:09:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's every everybody is all in this together.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_05: But but I I think it's important to note that the showcase at the end is super like that's when you show off all the work that you've been doing for this like three weeks, I think it is.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_05: And it's so rewarding.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_05: Oh, such a like amazing, incredible experience and feeling to get out on that stage finally.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_05: And yeah.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_02: We could probably talk about this all day.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I've learned so much.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: And I also think that this is extremely informative for everyone.
1:09:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is like gonna be an eye-opening thing.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_05: Okay, good.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_05: That's great.
1:09:38
SPEAKER_05: I love to hear that because people need the info.
1:09:41
SPEAKER_05: I don't think I touched on this fully, but like going from the apprenticeship into my first company job, man, that pay was like, and no offense to that the company I worked with, but the pay was just like, oh man, what am I gonna do?
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
1:09:57
SPEAKER_05: Like, this is yeah, this is like struggle bus.
1:10:00
SPEAKER_05: And that was like over, you know, 12, whatever amount of years ago.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_05: I was like, oh, is it gonna be like this the in my entire career?
1:10:08
SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
1:10:09
SPEAKER_02: It could be discouraging.
1:10:10
SPEAKER_05: So recognize for sure.
1:10:13
SPEAKER_05: It was like pretty discouraging.
1:10:15
SPEAKER_05: But then again, like you always have to go back to weighing the pros and the cons and making sacrifices if that's really what you want to do.
1:10:22
SPEAKER_02: Especially when you're first getting started and you've put the time in already with the apprenticeship, and then you finally got the job and you're like, Oh, okay.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, I guess I gotta stick this out a little bit.
1:10:33
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, pretty much.
1:10:35
SPEAKER_05: I mean, unless you're willing to do those Broadway auditions.
1:10:39
unknown: Right.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_02: Which those don't always lead you to much either.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_05: So it's important to note that it wasn't like right away, oh yeah, I'm making bank with my my first company job, or even a second one, or the one after that, or you know, I'm constantly bouncing around because like, whoo, okay, this is I gotta make it work.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_05: I'm not gonna be getting it's not like there's a six-figure salary in my future with this pro with this project-based work or these concert dance company jobs that I'm doing, and that's okay.
1:11:13
SPEAKER_05: But you have to you have to know that it's gonna be like that.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_03: Right.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_05: And you have to you that you are yeah, that you're um you're gonna be doing sometimes just like two, three month contracts, project-based work, or even within a season at a company, you're not gonna get 40 weeks of work.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_05: You might only get 30 if that, if less.
1:11:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_05: So so then so then it comes, then the freelancing, you know, side gigs come into play and all those other things.
1:11:41
SPEAKER_05: Just you gotta make it work.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_05: And that's how I ended up with complexions.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_05: Or, and even then, like before I joined Complexions, I was struggle busing in New York too.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_05: I just moved back to New York, I had no money.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_05: I was apprenticing again as like a 25-year-old at Perry Dance just because I needed to keep training so that I could go into an audition and get a job.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_05: And I'm glad I did because then I got the job at Complexions and I was like, okay, I can like, you know, at least get my head above water again for a bit.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_05: And I don't want it, I don't want people out there listening to, you know, sound like, oh my god, I was drowning the entire time.
1:12:19
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:12:20
SPEAKER_05: But I'm not, I'm I'm gonna say it wasn't easy.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_05: And and there's and there's some merit to that because it made me stronger, it made me smarter, it made me tenacious, resourceful, you know.
1:12:32
SPEAKER_01: That's well, and it led you to the place you are now.
1:12:35
SPEAKER_01: You're teaching at two colleges currently.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm actually adjunct lecturer at USC, which that happened last year after leaving Los Angeles dance project, thankfully.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_05: Uh, you know, that was another like, whoa, okay, transition, what am I gonna do in my life?
1:12:52
SPEAKER_05: Yep, type of thing.
1:12:53
SPEAKER_05: And thankfully that happened.
1:12:54
SPEAKER_05: And then the Joffrey Ballet School also kind of snatched me up and was like, Oh, we need you to go do these Joffrey auditions that are throughout the US and they also have international ones that I haven't done, but yeah, so Chapman University as well, because my old my boss from Complexions, Dwight Roden, asked me to sub quite a few classes at Chapman for him.
1:13:18
SPEAKER_05: So there's also that.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think it's important, you know, again, for the parents out there to think about the long game and help your child think about the long game.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_01: Yes, the first 10 years of your young adulthood, if you want to be a dancer, are probably going to be spent struggling.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_01: Just that's just real for all of us.
1:13:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not everybody who books Hamilton and then is in the whole run of Hamilton from day one to the tour.
1:13:40
SPEAKER_01: That happens for some people.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't happen for everyone.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_01: So but the long game is if you put in the work, if you get all these experiences, if you stay the course, the next step is maybe working at a university, teaching the new, the new generation, you know, applying all that information that you've gained over the years.
1:13:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, you can be an adjunct faculty member at a college and never have a performing career.
1:14:01
SPEAKER_01: That happens.
1:14:02
SPEAKER_01: But I think you're more valuable as a faculty member who has had these experiences.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, there's a little bit of stability.
1:14:08
SPEAKER_01: There's a little bit of you probably have some health insurance now that's paid for, maybe, you know, and like we all know adjunct faculty at a lot of places aren't paid as well as they probably should be.
1:14:17
SPEAKER_01: But it's a little, it's a step up, you know, and then the next step may be something bigger.
1:14:22
SPEAKER_01: So the long game is important when thinking about a dance career because it will be hard at first, but it won't always be the slog that it is.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
1:14:29
SPEAKER_05: And I think and add on to that, because I think this is one of the questions like, do you need to go to university?
1:14:35
SPEAKER_05: Do you need to get a degree to go into the concert dance world?
1:14:38
SPEAKER_05: And then the answer is no, you don't.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_05: However, and I've had this conversation with younger dancers who are, you know, struggling or like, what am I gonna considering that, you know?
1:14:49
SPEAKER_05: And I said, well, um, you know, I may still be paying off my loans from going to college, but that training that I got wouldn't trade it for anything.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_05: And because it set me up, and because I have my degree and the professional experience I'm able to teach at USC.
1:15:05
SPEAKER_05: I got the job at USC.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_05: I can jump into teaching those classes at Chapman or you know, wherever life might take me.
1:15:12
SPEAKER_05: But you kind of and I think most universities require that you have a degree to even be adjunct, you know.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_03: That's true.
1:15:20
SPEAKER_05: So that's something to be noted.
1:15:22
SPEAKER_05: And and you can still do concert dance and like, but I think you need like 14 to 15 years of professional experience if you're at the right places, yeah.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_05: Wow, yeah, at the at the right places.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_05: So whoever's listening out there note that if you're thinking about that, it's something to consider because not only are you getting three to four years of intense, extensive training if you go to a university, but you also have that degree to back you up later on.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_05: To if you want to go get your masters, if you want, yeah, if you want to graduate program, then you have you already have the prerequisites.
1:15:56
SPEAKER_05: You've you're one step ahead.
1:15:58
SPEAKER_02: That's true.
1:15:59
SPEAKER_02: One one step ahead more than me, because I don't have a degree.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but but I recall you went to Marymount for a bit.
1:16:06
SPEAKER_02: No, I went for one semester.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_02: And then said nope.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_02: I was like, ooh, that's fine.
1:16:14
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, but but you did just fine.
1:16:17
SPEAKER_05: And like it's yeah, you didn't have to go through with that.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_05: You're like, nah, I'm good, I'm gonna make it work, and you did.
1:16:24
SPEAKER_05: And that's something that should be highlighted.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_05: Is that it's everybody has a different trajectory or path.
1:16:32
SPEAKER_05: But I think Maddie touched on this earlier, is like knowing that okay, it is for me, or it's like, no what, eh, I gotta know the difference.
1:16:40
SPEAKER_01: And that's where your self-introspection and your self-reflection comes in as well, is there too.
1:16:45
SPEAKER_01: Not only am I good at this thing that I'm doing and how can I be better, but who actually am I?
1:16:50
SPEAKER_01: What do I actually want?
1:16:51
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:16:52
SPEAKER_05: And it's it's all full circle.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_05: It so many times I've seen, especially in the dance world, it just comes, everything comes full circle at some point.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_05: In the concert dance world, networking, everybody knows each other.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_05: The dance world's so small, but everybody talks, everyone knows each other, this person knows this person who also so eventually you're just it's like what seven degrees of Kevin Bacon.
1:17:15
SPEAKER_05: Yep, whatever that thing is.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_05: It's basically the same thing in the dance world.
1:17:20
SPEAKER_05: No matter whether you're doing commercial dance or concert dance, it's about who you know and who knows you.
1:17:26
SPEAKER_05: I'm thankful for every teacher that I've ever had.
1:17:30
SPEAKER_05: Ms.
1:17:31
SPEAKER_05: Shannon, wow, you know, Adrian, even Adrian Canterna, Ashley Canterner, they came and taught at Hotshots.
1:17:38
SPEAKER_05: Like, and then BSA was like, I couldn't have done it without these teachers or like this foundation.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_05: It's important to note that that without the foundation and the the mentors, the wonderful, absolutely wonderful teachers that I've had that pushed me and made me the dancer that I am to go on and succeed.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_05: I don't think I could have done it without them.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_02: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about concert dance.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_02: Special shout out to our guests for joining us.
1:18:10
SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
1:18:13
SPEAKER_02: You can find Doug at Dug Bomb and Maddie at MaddieHick.
1:18:19
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcast, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
1:18:26
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1:18:32
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1:18:41
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1:18:48
SPEAKER_02: Attention All Dancers! Looking for some outside expertise to fine-tune your dance before hitting the competition stage this season?
1:18:56
SPEAKER_02: Then check out IDA's online judges critiques.
1:18:59
SPEAKER_02: Our seasoned judges will provide you with the video critique of your routine, just like you'd receive at competition.
1:19:04
SPEAKER_02: But with IDA's online judges critiques, we take it one step further with our post-critique additional feedback.
1:19:11
SPEAKER_02: Your judge will go through your routine again, pausing the video to give you even more detailed and personalized feedback.
1:19:17
SPEAKER_02: You can even request a judge that specializes in your style of dance.
1:19:21
SPEAKER_02: This game-changing service has helped countless dancers prepare for the competitive stage and is available year round.
1:19:28
SPEAKER_02: With critiques starting at only$35, what are you waiting for?
1:19:31
SPEAKER_02: Click the link in our show notes or visit our website at Impact Dance Adjudicators.com slash online critiques to learn more and submit your dance today.
1:19:41
SPEAKER_01: Season five of Making the Impact is almost over, but we have a few more great episodes coming your way, including how judges' emotions affect scoring, tips on changing studios, and transitioning from competitive dancer to professional dancer.
1:19:56
SPEAKER_02: We hope you're enjoying season five.
1:19:58
SPEAKER_02: Happy comp season.
1:20:00
SPEAKER_02: We'll see you next week.
1:20:01
SPEAKER_02: Until then, keep dancing.