Latest / CrossPolitic Show / Deconstructing Islam With the Old Testament (ft. Shahriq Khan & Pastor Greg Armstrong)
Transcript
- Hey, oh welcome to crossbowl to gonna fight life. He's network. It's good to be with you at Amfest 2025 Chalk Knox, Pastor Toby. I'm the water boy We also have a couple guests on the show today. We got shark and Greg. I'm sure it's not shark. Shark. Is it shark? Shark I got my shark. It's a nickname underground nickname. Okay. I know Christ underground dot org. Yes, sir Christ underground dot org. And so you guys are based out of Canada. I am so Your base out of Canada shark. Where are you based? I'm in the grace of the Texas. Oh, Promised land. Amen. How do I know? Yep? American team you guys know the whole thing I'm in the DFW Metroplex. So right in the middle of it. Honestly, I didn't know that I assumed you are actually based out of Canada And everything but I was actually born and raised in Texas. So yeah, brother away back. Yeah brother and on all right So Christ underground what I mean what is Christ underground dot org? I would love to yeah, it is a is not probably that we founded that is focused on Biblically engaging Muslims by not just coming against political Islam But spiritual Islam and we want we don't want to use the same approach that the church is using of just coming at Islam and trying to ruin the religion But we need to disciple that Biblically into Christ our goal is to save Muslims to save America here in the West and the Muslims here in the West Will be the ones to go all over the world and disciple other nations other communities And we've become so passionate about that mission and pastor Greg has been my mentor in my Disciple my disciple maker, I guess I miss the cycle And I grew up into a very devout Muslim family I have a devout Muslim background and when I came to Christ I just got ruined for this mission and so the Lord paired me with pastor Greg here Who's an incredible man of God and we have built its organization just this year and we have been Exploding by the grace of God as well all over social media We have over 6000 people in over a hundred different countries that we're training on our flagship program Which is called the master key we have some stuff on that is a devout Muslim apology that exist them that we use to deconstruct Islam based on solely the Torah We have these hats called make Torah great again To then lay the biblical foundations of the Torah and eventually disciple Muslims like myself into Christ I want to get I want to get some more of like that That your approach to evangelism. Oh hang on there How old were you when you became a Christian? Were you born in America? You know, yeah, who led you to the Lord that kind of yeah I get the story. I'll give it very quickly here, but please Yeah, so I was born in New York, we're in Raising New York And my father actually lived the American dream he came here when he was 19 with $60 in his pocket became a citizen Through to the senior vice president at a bank and on September 11th He actually saw the planes hit the twin towers. Wow, and so I was three and a half at the time And my first identity as a man or as a kid really was that I'm going to be the western pillar of light Boris Lam here in the west and that is a very intense very performative very anti-grace Anti-gospel way to be raised Now as I got super conscious in my life, and I went to college. I stuck out of indoctrination I really was challenging Christians on their faith and by studying the Bible I ended up getting discipled into the word of God and Yeah, trying to rip Christians made the way from them. I was like wait, maybe I don't know what I believe and Through my Muslim identity the performance mode It's very important for the Gen Z audience too. I actually became very suicidal and in the night that I was most suicidal I was ready to revert to Islam go all the way in and Christ met me that night Um, and I had a dream it was a very short one, but I heard the words Get up and go for you have been healed And I only knew that was Christ because of John five the Bible studies that my friends would force me into as a Muslim in college And um, I just decided that moment. I was November of 22 the night. I was most suicidal Christ met me and um, I was like I don't know how to defend my faith, but I know this is true And I'm gonna go all the way in and since then I've just kind of been this Zealous 27-year-old guy just parading the gospel and the Lord has blessed me with once again mentors like Greg to really disciple me into the apologetics part of it And this ministry has really come out of that Okay, so Greg Sounds like you've been a driver on maybe the apologetic side and the approach that you guys been taking yep And so you guys are using largely the old testament yep To engage with Muslims now why start there? You I mean sound pressuritarian to me already but let's look at that different conversation Baptist actually, but yeah Nobody's perfect right? No all right, yeah, yeah, so why the Old Testament? Well, I can ask you a question So what do you think is like the most foundational difference between Islam and Christianity? Jesus Jesus anybody else I'm gonna go for it um, I mean I think their view of the Old Testament Is this wrong and twisted and non-actory? Okay, most foundational difference is not Jesus of course the big difference That's always a cheap answer, right? Of course. Yeah, I think about that. Jesus. This is the mistake a lot of people are making The most foundational difference is that denial of original sin Death does not come as a consequence of sin in the Quran, right? Okay, which means that there's no room for blood at all men If there's no room for blood at all men, there's no dying Messiah. I said Jesus Okay, come on Come on, who's the first? Yeah, the first Adam so the yeah the first Adam so we like to say often is We're not gonna talk about the second Adam with you with Muslims until we deal with the first Adam You know often Christians make a mistake in general with evangelism to go right to the gospel You guys know I know you guys law before gospel, right? They got to know the problem the bad news before they understand and can appreciate and receive the good news So we got to go step by step for Muslims they have an authority that's in the way Right, they have a different scripture a different claim about revelation that is a rival authority Err, you said the Quran is what you're on of course. Yeah, so they So for us to effectively reach them and persuade them, which is what we're about We want to know what will actually persuade them out of Islam and to accept ultimately Christ So how do we do that effectively? We have to undermine the authority of the Quran So the Torah is the best way strategically to do that Because it deals with the foundational issues But also, you know, what is the everything any debate you're gonna Engage with a Muslim on anything else It's gonna come back to one issue the Bible's corrupted right? That's right right so for us we're saying okay specifically the Torah We're not gonna allow them to talk about Jesus and the New Testament because it's gonna be like throwing pearls before swine They're gonna trample it underfoot that's what they always do. They're trying to tear it down and any defense that we give first puts us on the defensive Okay, why are we on the defensive when they're following and a literate Arab Bedouin who didn't know anything about really about the text of scripture And they need to face the truth that's in the real word of God. Yeah, are you are you maintaining That the Muslims have more respect for the Torah and that's why you start there or really? Okay, okay Well, so how's it How's it not the same problem when you say okay, let's not start with Jesus. Let's start the Old Testament You know if you start with Jesus it's a trick because you can't talk about the Old Testament without talking about Jesus He's a trick. He's a man. Not quite okay. See, I'm trying to help you out Of course, so you know, there's a cop very popular argument online called the Islamic dilemma The idea is that the Quran is affirming the previous scriptures And so when we see there's contradiction therefore the Quran is false. Okay, we agree with that idea of it But the practicality of it which is we're concerned with practically persuading them is that once they see the differences Then what are they going to say? They're going to say okay, even though we may have you may have been able to convince us as Muslims that the Quran affirms The reliability previous scriptures now that we see the differences they're going to say it's corrupted Okay, in other words are going to backtrack So how do we then effectively get through to them at that point? Our system is called the master key which is strategically focused on one thing Okay, when we diversify our thing our approach that actually makes it strategically less valuable Less effective because they exploit anything that they can to do to distract and Focus put us on the defensive and when I was a Muslim I would surgically analyze my Christian friends waiting for the first mistake to go in and prove You know as as a Muslim work we're actually trained from a young age to go against Christianity specifically I knew all the arguments been out and not eventually found in the Old Testament. It's all very new testament based things Yeah, so actually I want to redo three verses and I want you to tell me What it sounds like okay, so I'm gonna read you from the story of Moses He fled from Egypt after he killed the Egyptian man. This is in the Quran. Okay, the Quranic account And he goes to median he meets the women at the well, right? And he waters the the herd for them and then they take him back to their father Who is Jethro in the Bible, right? And now there's going to be the conversation at home And I want you to tell me if you spot something that's really uh doesn't make doesn't fit. Okay So one of the two daughters Oh my dear father higher him a strong and trustworthy person is definitely the best to hire the old man Proposed I wish to marry one of these two daughters of mine to you Provided that you stay in my service for eight years If you complete ten it will be a favor from you But I do not wish to make it difficult for you. God willing you will find me an agreeable man Moses responded then it settled between you and I whichever term I fulfill There will be no further obligation on me and God is a witness between what we say What does that sound like? It sounds like labin labin and Jacob exactly how many daughters did labin have Dose yes, how many did it say here? Two right to translate for you. Okay. Yeah, so yeah, two and how many daughters did Jethro have In Exodus anybody know seven. Yeah, of course you know. Okay seven cheating wait wait wait Okay, so seven and my kid who knows the answer and I tell don't say anything yet an Exodus did Moses in Exodus that he worked to get his wife No seven years, right? Okay, so what is this it's mixed up stories, okay, right? So now I want you to think specifics. We're all about specifics What something like the Islamic dilemmas about is generalities where it's claiming that okay the Quran referring to the Torah in general confirming it Or saying no, no, not general specifics. What is it that Muslims are claiming was changed? They don't know So we're gonna show them for them to make the claim that the Torah was changed We're gonna show them all the parallel stories that are in both Quran and Old Testament and we're gonna show them all the like tons of distortions we're talking hundreds even thousands of distortions in the details And we're going to press them to give us an answer in explain why the Jews Hypothetically speaking changed all the specifics in the stories So take this example. What did the Torah originally say about Moses? Well the Quran must have the true version according to them, right? So this must represent what the Quran the Torah originally said So it changed from this where Moses had to work eight or ten years to get his wife one of one of two daughters And the Jews they changed it to one of seven daughters and he didn't have to work and they move that To Genesis and they attributed it to Jacob. Why'd they do that? What do you think? What do you think they'd say? Toby I see the gears turning over there Toby. Yeah, they probably wouldn't have an answer for that No, I don't know. I didn't think they would Yeah, and that's that's the point is that they don't have an answer And do you think that they've heard it before? Yeah, probably not because they're not going through details like that exactly. Yeah. So we have a saying details not doctrine So if you think about it, let's think about these specific details the number of the daughters whether he worked to get his wife and how many years and so forth So could this have been an unintentional change like a scribal error that was accidentally done where somebody's copying Supposedly the version of the Torah that's like the Quran where it says Moses worked to get his wife for one of one of two And it accidentally changed into one of seven Andy and no longer working Could that be an accidental change? What do you think? No, it's like it's too much right? So and also like you got to move it to the story of Jacob right from Moses So it's not unintentional So it must have been intentional if it was corrupted this way So I say okay, if it was intentional you need a motive Okay, I'll give you four motives. You can add to the list if you can think of any first is theological motive They're changing theology in the text in this specific example It changed an ethical an ethical motive. They're changing teaching about ethics third is Well, the Quran says there's prophecies of Muhammad in the Torah So maybe they removed the prophecy and the pastors that they change it or fourth political motive So you tell me chocolate is any theology changing by changing the number of daughters of jethro? Why would they say I think all four possibly okay, so how is it theological? because What about God or how we relate to God or how we're saved or there's nothing to do with that right? Yes, this is one of the details about like organization of marriage and family Okay, it doesn't authority of father Okay, but it doesn't really change that in the in the Torah doesn't really change the structure Okay, by changing weather Moses work to get his wife or not Right because we still have that for Jacob that's also in the in the Torah Okay, okay, so in other words, there's no apparent doctrinal theological change by changing those details Right also any teaching about ethics changing in changing those specific details Yeah, I'm not thinking of any right now working for it well again, but Jacob works to get his wife right when the Torah right So it's not like whether anybody works to get there and it's also not telling us that's what we should do We're gonna usually end up at at this point They don't have an answer So the point is there's no theological motive because there's no theology changing There's no ethical teaching changing. There's no prophecy to Muhammad in the passage in either one And what's the political motive to change that Right, okay, so we're saying if there's no motive Then it wasn't changed intentionally because you need a motive to change it intentionally And it wasn't changed unintentionally therefore it wasn't changed So if they say something well, that's just they wanted to fit more of their story versus ours because they knows that um There's differences and so this isn't Two story fits who this isn't Torah. This isn't Judaism. This is Islam and so we want it ours to be different So that's why they changed it. No, but the the claim is that the the Torah the Quran is preserving the true story That was originally in the Torah right, but I'm saying yeah, what are we gonna say pastor fixing where the Torah went wrong He's Right exactly what's the motive though their version their story that separate from Islam So that would be after Islam But we have this before Islam in manuscripts. Yeah, okay, so it can't be a reaction to Islam It has to be before in fact before even Christianity So they put its own is on the fact that Islam had to have changed the story Exactly, so there's a simple explanation What about fix the story? Well, that's the claim is that they're gonna say well the Quran is correcting it. So okay great We say great. It's correcting it. So that means the Quran represents the original version We're back to the same problem Okay, why did the Jews change it from this to what we have in Genesis and Exodus And Greg it's not just about this one this one in examples You know as the head of research and development for our ministry how many thousands of differences have we found so far? Okay, let me ask you guys okay in the story of Joseph There are 98 verses telling the story of Joseph in the Quran. So almost 100 verses. It's pretty detailed If you were to imagine to compare that to Genesis chapter 37 to 50 of the story of Joseph Imagine how many differences you might find what do you say tons? Yeah, put a number all of them All it's everything's different all the verses you mean? So 98 is joking at least okay at least okay This is a fun part throw number on it. I've done that 98 there 98 I'm writing detailed charts. I've written the Joseph chart Okay, what do you say 98? Yeah 98 and you guys want to go higher? Morning 2000 Oh, it's a little high. Okay. Okay. See this is the problem with the game. That's fine. No, that's fine I hear the info. Google. How about that? I think it's on our show. We're supposed to ask you questions Yeah, this is what we do with that so how many is it 944? Okay, that's almost 10 per verse So now tell me so we're not talking about just one sample. We're talking every story that's parallel From Adam Noah even can't enable there's five verses in the crown. There's 31 differences Okay, so they gotta explain every one of them Maybe they can explain a few okay, well we they get explained for in the story of Joseph He got another 940 to go they gotta explain all of them before we're ever gonna talk about Jesus That's amazing unless they give up and they recognize that the crown is a distortion And lately go ahead really I've been planning seats too is that there's an Occam's razor argument here like the simplest Explanation is usually the best. Mohammed got it wrong That's a very easy explanation instead of trying to explain how the Jews had Thousands of differences changed without motive and then also from every single manuscript that we have from Spain to Ethiopia to India All changed in the exact same way per our manuscript evidence. It's overwhelming truly So we got about five minutes left here four minutes left Um, so we might have to speed up a little bit of the process here But how do you take them to Christ? Oh, I saw okay, so we Essentially we our whole system can be summarized this way We have two stages one is deconstruction the other part is reconstruction after that So the deconstruction is the hard part. It's like where we're undermining the crown We're showing that it's false in their eyes So we have to build a lot into that show them a lot of examples not just gonna be one or two Okay, and we have specific points. We're also hitting on also So after that once we see that it has broken through to them for the reconstruction process We have five main points. We have five for the deconstruction as well So five we call five real pillars of Islam that we can deconstruct in the deconstruction for the Bible We have five pillars for the Bible the first is original sin Blood atonement the offanese Isaiah 53 and then the gospel And the beautiful thing about this is because we deconstructed based on the word of God first We set apart Christ as Lord used his word to deconstruct the foundation is already there for them to believe the Torah is actually real They have the reverence for God that we can play on because they do believe that they do want to relationship with God But here's the real scripture We don't just deconstruct well and leave them out to be agnostic or atheist Yeah, then the natural Transition is that we're using the Torah to deconstruct and then we're using it to reconstruct for at the beginning So we say now we want to share the true message of the Torah with you and it leads to Christ Sometimes some of the best shows is we got to stop before we get to the meat Here Toby's got to go to interview In everything but where can people follow you guys find you guys Yeah, Christ underground or you'll see all of our links there how to partner with us how to get We have a free course on all of this stuff that we break down extensively if you have devout Muslim loved ones in your life Let's get them saved the time is now Let's get it. Yeah, yeah, the time is now. It was yesterday honestly. God is say though We also got an online free training platform on school and you can get a link on Christ underground Christ underground or has everything you need even our contact info We do a lot of church of angelim teams. We plant church of angelim teams as well. That's fantastic Yeah, thank you very work. Thanks for having us