Latest / The Infographics Show Podcast / What It’s Like to Be in Witness Protection

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What It’s Like to Be in Witness Protection · The Infographics Show Podcast

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Right, Welcome back to Beyond Infographics. You know, we always
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: try to dig a little bit deeper than just what
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: meets the eye, and today we're going deep, deep into
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: something that you've definitely seen in movies and TV shows,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: but might not really know the real story behind it.
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  Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: We were talking about the Witness Protection program, the federal
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  Speaker 1: Witness Protection program at day SEK. You see these dramatic escapes.
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  Speaker 1: You see people getting you know, whisked away in the
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  Speaker 1: middle of the night, given a new identity and boom,
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  Speaker 1: new life. Right, But we want to kind of unpack that.
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  Speaker 1: We want to look at the real mechanics of how
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  Speaker 1: it works and then also you know, the human element
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  Speaker 1: of it and maybe some of the you know, the
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  Speaker 1: less glamorous sides of it too.
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  Speaker 2: What do you think, Oh, I think, you know, when
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  Speaker 2: we talk about beyond a phographics, that's what we do.
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  Speaker 2: We go beyond the surface. So I'm totally on board
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  Speaker 2: and I think this is going to be a fascinating
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  Speaker 2: time topic to delve into.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, it's interesting thinking about where this
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  Speaker 1: all started. You know, back in the nineteen sixties, you know,
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  Speaker 1: organized crime, the mob, they had a lot of power
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  Speaker 1: and one of the big problems was witnesses being afraid
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  Speaker 1: to testify because you know, they were there was the
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  Speaker 1: threat of retaliation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a huge issue.
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  Speaker 1: So something had to be done, and in nineteen seventy
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  Speaker 1: one we see the creation of the US Marshall's Service
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  Speaker 1: Witness Security Program. A lot of this was thanks to
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  Speaker 1: a guy named Gerald Shure, who was an attorney with
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  Speaker 1: the Justice Department. He really kind of pushed for this
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  Speaker 1: and you know, you've looked at the numbers since his
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  Speaker 1: program was established, we're talking about over eighty six hundred
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  Speaker 1: witnesses and almost ten thousand family members who've been given
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  Speaker 1: new identities.
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  Speaker 2: That's that is an incredible number of people whose lives
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  Speaker 2: have been completely you know, transformed because of this program.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it makes you wonder, like, who are these
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  Speaker 1: people entering the program? You know, what kind of situations
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  Speaker 1: are they coming from?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it's it's fair to say that
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  Speaker 2: the vast majority of people who enter WITSEC are actually
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  Speaker 2: they come from the world of organized crime. So we're
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  Speaker 2: talking about members of the mob, different gangs, drug cartels,
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  Speaker 2: even terrorist groups, and they're they're basically making a deal,
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  Speaker 2: they're trading their testimony against their former associates for a
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  Speaker 2: chance to have a new life, maybe a reduced sentence,
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  Speaker 2: or even in some cases, to have charges completely dropped. Right.
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  Speaker 1: So you're talking about people who are deeply involved in
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  Speaker 1: illegal activities, right, and then they're making this huge decision
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  Speaker 1: to flip, you know, to testify against their former you know,
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  Speaker 1: partners in crime and then try to start over. It's
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  Speaker 1: it's a fascinating, uh, you know, kind of dynamic there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's a high stakes decision and there's a
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  Speaker 2: lot of risk involved.
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  Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. And I think one of the one of
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  Speaker 1: the examples that really kind of sticks with me is
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  Speaker 1: the case of Henry Hill, you know, the guy from
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  Speaker 1: you know, Goodfellows, sure, the movie Goodfellas. He was associated
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  Speaker 1: the Luciust crime family and he actually entered Witseck with
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  Speaker 1: his family and spent two years in the program before
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  Speaker 1: his cover was blunt.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean that kind of highlights the challenges, right,
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  Speaker 2: Like even even someone whose story became so public, you know,
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  Speaker 2: managed to stay under the radar for a while, but
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  Speaker 2: it shows how difficult it is to truly maintain that
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  Speaker 2: new identity in the long run.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So let's get into that, like, what what actually
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  Speaker 1: happens when someone enters WITS? What does that process look like?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean the first thing is you're making a
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  Speaker 2: massive life change. You're basically leaving everything behind, and you
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  Speaker 2: have to decide whether you're going in alone or with
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  Speaker 2: your immediate family. But the tough part is you have
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  Speaker 2: to cut ties with extended family, with friends. You know,
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  Speaker 2: all those connections are are severed and you can't you know,
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  Speaker 2: you can't really tell them where you're going, what you're doing.
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  Speaker 2: It's a very strict you know, communication blackout.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. So I mean you're really talking about like starting
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  Speaker 1: starting over from scratch pretty much.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, the marsh as they come in and
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  Speaker 2: they help you build this this new life. They give
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  Speaker 2: you a new last name, sometimes a new first name
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  Speaker 2: as well. Right, they create a backstory for you, you know,
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  Speaker 2: to explain where you came from, a new Social Security number,
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  Speaker 2: birth certificate. They even help you find a new home
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  Speaker 2: and a job.
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  Speaker 1: It's almost like like creating a whole new person. Right.
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  Speaker 1: It's it's incredible, it really is.
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  Speaker 2: And and you know the thing is the primary requirement
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  Speaker 2: to get into the program isn't necessarily the value of
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  Speaker 2: the information you're providing, the most important thing is the
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  Speaker 2: threat to your life.
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  Speaker 1: So it's really about protecting people who are in danger exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Like you know, there's there's a story from a former
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  Speaker 2: federal prosecutor, you from Savat. He talked about sponsoring informants
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  Speaker 2: against the Cali cartel, even one against the mafia, who
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  Speaker 2: didn't really provide a lot of you know, groundbreaking information, right,
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  Speaker 2: but the danger was there and that's what mattered.
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  Speaker 1: That's that's really interesting. So it's not about like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: how much you know, it's about how much danger you're
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  Speaker 1: in exactly. Wow. Now, of course, one of the things
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  Speaker 1: that's always kind of shrouded in mystery about WITSEC is
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  Speaker 1: that you know, we don't really hear from the people
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  Speaker 1: who successfully.
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  Speaker 2: Stay in the program, right, right, And that silence in itself,
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  Speaker 2: you know, says something. It means that the secrecy is working, right.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, in nineteen ninety six, the New York
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  Speaker 2: Times they actually managed to interview a family that was
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  Speaker 2: in witness protection, but it was at a neutral site.
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  Speaker 2: They couldn't reveal any identifying details. It was it was
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  Speaker 2: very you know, tightly controlled.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And I think that's what makes it so so fascinating.
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  Speaker 1: We only really hear about the cases where something goes wrong,
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  Speaker 1: where someone's cover is blown. And one example that comes
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  Speaker 1: to mind is what had Maharam. He testified in the
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  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three World Trade Center bombing trial and entered WITSEC.
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  Speaker 2: Oh wow.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was initially relocated to Phoenix. Yeah, but then
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  Speaker 1: he reportedly broke a security protocol and was moved to Seattle.
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  Speaker 1: But then his cover was blown again, so they moved.
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  Speaker 2: Him to Kansas City, Oh my goodness.
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  Speaker 1: And it was there that he he apparently told his
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  Speaker 1: second wife about his past. Yeah, and that led to
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  Speaker 1: him being removed from the program.
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  Speaker 2: So even after multiple relocations, even after you know, trying
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  Speaker 2: to build a new life, he still couldn't escape his past.
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  Speaker 1: It's it's incredible. And what's even crazier is what happened next.
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  Speaker 1: So after he was removed from WHITSEC, Moharma became known
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  Speaker 1: as helmet Man. At Kansas City Chiefs games. He would
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  Speaker 1: wear this this very distinctive Native American, uh, you know, costume,
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  Speaker 1: a caricature, Yeah, like a caricature, and it made him
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  Speaker 1: kind of a local celebrity. Oh wow. But then after
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  Speaker 1: nine to eleven, his second wife, she actually went public
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  Speaker 1: with his WITSEC history. Oh no, which you know, created
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  Speaker 1: this whole this whole security risk. And even the chiefs
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  Speaker 1: they asked him to stop coming to games because they
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  Speaker 1: were worried about you know, potential potential danger.
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  Speaker 2: Wow. So it really it really shows how how fragile
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  Speaker 2: that new identity can be.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it also highlights, you know, the
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  Speaker 1: human element of it, like some people might be prone
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  Speaker 1: to you know, seeking attention or you know, making a
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  Speaker 1: mistake right, and it can really have serious consequences.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Now, this all kind of leads into some of the
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  Speaker 1: criticisms that have been leveled against WHITSC. And you know
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  Speaker 1: Bill Masche, he's a journalist who's a Pulitzer finalist for
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  Speaker 1: his reporting on the program. He's he's brought up some
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  Speaker 1: interesting concerns.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what did he say?
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  Speaker 1: Well, one of his big, big arguments is that the
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  Speaker 1: number of witnesses who break the rules is probably a
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  Speaker 1: lot higher than what's officially reported. And he also suggests
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  Speaker 1: that maybe you know, the marshals they don't always pay
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  Speaker 1: close attention unless there's you know, some kind of a
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  Speaker 1: public legal.
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  Speaker 2: Issue, so they're not necessarily monitoring people as closely as
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  Speaker 2: they could be.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And and you know, there's a there's a case
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  Speaker 1: that really kind of illustrates this. Salvator Sammy the Buldravano.
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  Speaker 1: He testified against John Gotti, you know, the famous mob boss,
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  Speaker 1: and he was relocated to Phoenix, but then he got
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  Speaker 1: involved in ecstasy trafficking.
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  Speaker 2: Oh wow, So even after testifying against, you know, one
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  Speaker 2: of the biggest names in the mafia, he still ended
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  Speaker 2: up back in the criminal world.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And Mershi he also pointed out that a lot
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  Speaker 1: of witnesses are unhappy with their new jobs. You know,
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  Speaker 1: they're often making less money, the jobs are less exciting.
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  Speaker 2: Right, which makes sense. It must be hard to go
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  Speaker 2: from a life of you know, crime and excitement to
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  Speaker 2: something much more mundane.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And he argues that this can lead people to
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  Speaker 1: go back to illegal activities, you know, either because they
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  Speaker 1: need the money or just because it's what they know.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not just about giving them a new identity
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  Speaker 2: and relocating them. There's there's a whole psychological aspect to
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  Speaker 2: it as.
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  Speaker 1: Well, exactly. And you know, if we kind of bring
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  Speaker 1: it back to beyond infographics, you know, we're always looking
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  Speaker 1: at the bigger picture, and this shows that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: there's more to it than just giving someone a new life.
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  Speaker 1: There's the mental and emotional aspect of it as well.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think one of the things that often
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  Speaker 2: gets overlooked is the constant fear and paranoia that many
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  Speaker 2: witnesses experience. You know, they're always looking over their shoulder,
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  Speaker 2: worried about being discovered. All right, and there's a there's
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  Speaker 2: a really powerful story from a guy named Imad Salem.
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  Speaker 2: He was an undercover FBI asset who helped thwart a
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  Speaker 2: terrorist attack in New York City in the mid nineteen nineties.
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  Speaker 1: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he entered WITSEC. But he talks about the stress,
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  Speaker 2: the exhaustion, the fear. You know, he was constantly on edge,
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  Speaker 2: worried about being followed.
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  Speaker 1: It must have been like living a constant nightmare.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. He described, you know, taking evasive driving routes, having
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  Speaker 2: all these elaborate security measures at his home. And get this,
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  Speaker 2: he had to relocate at least seven times in eight years.
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  Speaker 2: Seven times, seven times. That's that's incredible, because either his
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  Speaker 2: cover was blown or there was some perceived threat, and
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  Speaker 2: to avoid being recognized, he had all these different jobs.
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  Speaker 2: He was a tree tremer, a hotel manager, a scuba
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  Speaker 2: diving instructor.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. So he was he was constantly on the move,
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  Speaker 1: constantly having to reinvent himself. And what's amazing is that
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  Speaker 1: even while he was in WITSEC, he still did some
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  Speaker 1: work for the FBI, like training agents, So he.
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  Speaker 2: Was still involved in that world, even though he was
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  Speaker 2: supposed to be, you know, living a new life. Right.
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  Speaker 1: And eventually he actually decided to come out of the
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  Speaker 1: program WOW, which you know, you can only imagine how
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  Speaker 1: difficult that decision must have been.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he must have felt like the burden
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  Speaker 2: of living this double life, the constant fear, it was
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  Speaker 2: just too much.
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  Speaker 1: Right, And I think his story really highlights that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: WITSEC can't provide protection, but it comes at a huge cost.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're sacrificing your freedom, your peace of mind, your
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  Speaker 2: ability to really connect with people.
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  Speaker 1: So as we as we kind of wrap up this
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  Speaker 1: deep dive into WITSEC, it's it's clear that the reality
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  Speaker 1: is so much more complex than what we see in
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  Speaker 1: the movies. Absolutely, you know, it's not just about getting
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  Speaker 1: a new identity in a new life. It's about the challenges,
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  Speaker 1: the sacrifices the constant fear, and.
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  Speaker 2: It really makes you think about, you know, what it
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  Speaker 2: says about society that we have this program. What does
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: it say about the lengths we'll go to in the
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: pursuit of justice.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's a really interesting question and one that
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  Speaker 1: maybe we can all, you know, ponder a little bit.
• 11:13
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• 11:16
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• 11:25
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• 11:27
  Speaker 1: be curious about the real story behind the Witness Protection program.
• 11:31
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• 11:33
  Speaker 2: let us know what you think.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and until next time, thanks for joining us on
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: Beyond Infographics.
• 11:38
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