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Does Your Former Self Have to Die For Growth? · The Original Self Podcast

0:00
And now before you know it, there have been an
0:03
amalgamation and compounding interest, which
0:07
results in you taking steps further away from
0:11
who you were to the point where someone says,
0:14
I don't even recognize you anymore because you're
0:16
not the same. Hey everyone, it's Evet. I'm
0:31
changing it up today because I have a guest joining
0:34
me on this week's podcast. My guest today is
0:37
Joseph Okoroji, who is a fitness coach, a Muay
0:42
Thai martial artist, and the author of the book
0:45
called A Mark in the Sand. His book explores
0:50
what it takes to build a meaningful life through
0:53
personal stories about failure, identity, ownership,
0:58
allowing yourself permission, the momentum and
1:02
sacrifice it takes, and then how you remain willing
1:07
to learn. At its heart, the book asks what we
1:12
need to carry forward and what we may need to
1:15
release in order to become the person we're capable
1:18
of becoming. Joseph first contacted me after
1:23
listening to episode 29 of the original self
1:25
podcast. why people treat you differently when
1:29
you change. In that episode, I explored labeling
1:33
theory and what can happen when we stop fulfilling
1:36
the roles other people have come to expect of
1:38
us. He offered a different and maybe darker interpretation
1:44
of transformation. He said, what if people don't
1:49
recognize the new you because the person they
1:52
knew is dead? We're going to talk about that
1:56
perspective today and about the changes that
1:58
inspired Joseph to write A Mark in the Sand.
2:03
Joseph, welcome to the Original Self Podcast.
2:06
Hi, thanks for having me. That was a very nice
2:08
and warm introduction, I have to write that down somewhere.
2:12
Okay. Well, I'll just give it to you. So your
2:16
email began with a striking question to me that
2:19
made me reread it like three times. So you said,
2:23
I'm gonna say it again, what if people don't
2:25
recognize the new you because the person they
2:28
knew is dead? Before we go anywhere else, when
2:32
you use the word death, what exactly has died?
2:38
Is it identity, certain behaviors? Everything.
2:42
Okay, you tell me. Everything. So it's not, I
2:49
think that the problem is the... It's not one
2:53
day you die and wake up and you have a new haircut,
2:56
new hairstyle, new dress sense, new way of thinking.
3:00
It's small incremental change. So if you were
3:05
the person in the friend group that liked tacos,
3:09
for example, and now all of a sudden you went
3:11
from the taco girl to the girl that prefers it
3:14
without the shells, small change. And then you
3:18
go, you know what? I'm on a fitness journey so
3:21
now I don't have tacos. Small. And now because
3:25
I'm on a fitness journey, guys, I'm not gonna
3:27
drink as much. Small. Hey guys, because we party
3:32
so late and it affects my ability to go to the
3:35
training in the morning, I'm not gonna go out
3:37
late. We're gonna do brunches instead. Small.
3:40
And now before you know it, there have been an
3:43
amalgamation and... compounding interest which
3:48
results in you taking steps further away from
3:52
who you were to the point where someone says
3:54
I don't even recognize you anymore because you're
3:56
not the same person and now before you know it
3:59
there have been an amalgamation and compounding
4:04
interest which results in you taking steps further
4:08
away from who you were To the point where someone
4:11
says, I don't even recognize you anymore because
4:13
you're not the same person doing that. That person
4:16
has died. The problem now is that when that person
4:19
dies, their actions towards you, however hostile,
4:24
is them mourning that person. And unfortunately,
4:28
everybody mourns and grieves differently. They
4:31
don't always celebrate. You don't realize that
4:35
how they treated you made them feel better. And
4:39
now that they can't do that, they're in a perpetual
4:41
state of feeling horrible. Got it. The word death,
4:46
obviously final, right? But how is that not growth
4:52
and healing and evolution? Well, sure. Yeah.
4:55
If you want to use the word evolution as an example,
4:58
the giraffes that had short necks are all dead,
5:00
right? Right. Exactly. That's the cost of evolution.
5:09
I like that example. To the point where now the
5:12
idea of a giraffe with a short neck sounds absurd.
5:16
But that's the cost. But it was necessary for
5:21
survival. This is why people tend to act different
5:25
and eventually surround themselves with new friends.
5:28
Because there are those who can't accept the
5:31
new version of you. and attempt to try and bring
5:34
you back whenever you fight at your corner or
5:36
fight that that's not who I am anymore. They
5:39
feel some type of way. Right. Was there one idea
5:44
or moment that made you think the new you might
5:50
be experienced as a stranger? What do you mean?
5:56
Like, OK, so. you and I had a previous conversation
6:00
before today and you were talking about how you
6:03
were in your youth, right? So when you did start
6:08
to evolve or change, did you ever think about
6:13
I'm changing and I wonder how this might be experienced
6:17
by someone that either knew me before or someone
6:20
that will get to know me? No, I was completely
6:23
selfish. I was completely selfish because there
6:27
is a very good chance that if you are, quote
6:29
unquote, a good person or an ex people pleaser
6:32
or anything to that degree, it might stunt your
6:36
ability to grow out of fear of how people will
6:40
take the change. Did you see what I'm saying?
6:43
It's like the person that stays in their hometown
6:45
at the risk of their career and questions how
6:48
people will view and see them because they decided
6:50
to leave. So at the risk of maintaining our friendships,
6:57
maintaining perception, maintaining the identity
7:02
you've kind of formed, you'll give up your potential
7:04
future because of your past and present. That
7:08
selfishness, which we always equate sometimes.
7:12
Well, not always, but a lot of times with a negative
7:15
thought. Yes, I was just going to say could be
7:18
the self -love, the self -preservation, the turning
7:22
point. Yeah, that's what your change. Yeah. The
7:26
only problem is that you and you hear this so
7:29
much on social media with self love and all the
7:32
rest of the stuff that the soft version of self
7:34
love, you know, getting a haircut, getting your
7:36
nails done massages or stuff. But the harder,
7:41
more consistent, more establishing version of
7:46
self love is normally deemed the selfishness
7:49
if it's done more consistently. Yes, for sure.
7:53
If you wanted to study and get an education,
7:55
for example, there's a lot of times where you're
7:56
going to have to isolate yourself from others.
7:59
Yes, most definitely. So now when your girlfriends
8:03
call up because they're going through their third
8:05
crisis this week and you can't respond because
8:09
you're on Do Not Disturb because you've got to
8:11
study. Right. Now you're the girl that doesn't
8:14
answer the phone. I get that. In your book, for
8:17
people that haven't read it yet, you talk about
8:21
getting this opportunity on a cruise ship to
8:23
be a fitness instructor on the cruise ship. And
8:28
something happened, right, that you can talk
8:30
about. And then telling us what happened, what
8:33
did that opportunity mean to you? For those who
8:36
haven't read the book, I was training to become
8:41
a personal trainer, right? And in doing so, once
8:45
I qualified, they said there was an option to
8:47
now go on to like cruise ships so that you can
8:50
do all the personal training stuff that you've
8:52
learned. But now doing it in a cruise ship capacity,
8:55
you had to learn yoga stuff. You had to learn
8:59
my TRX and bike stuff and everything else just
9:02
to kind of, you know, to mix it up because you're
9:04
going to be the end all be all when it comes
9:05
to fitness for them. Right. And I managed to
9:11
make the cut. So, in true British fashion, you
9:16
celebrate. And the way you celebrate is you drink.
9:20
Now, I drank for about two weeks straight, different
9:25
friends, different drinks. And it was ranging
9:30
from one to two liters of cuvoisier or cognac
9:36
or brandy or whatever, because you celebrate.
9:38
You don't really get this opportunity often.
9:40
At least you went for the good stuff though.
9:43
Yeah, but the good stuff comes with a price tag
9:47
for sure. So then now my medical came and me
9:55
being around 20 -ish at the time, like early
9:58
20s, they did a medical and my liver had aged
10:03
almost two to three times my natural age. Oh,
10:07
wow. It was like late 40s, early 50s. I had the
10:11
liver of the cliche of the cop who drinks at
10:15
the end of the shift, right? So because of that,
10:21
you know, although I was in shape, I was doing
10:23
Muay Thai, I was a trainer. So, you know, I was
10:26
using all the stuff that I'd learned. So I got
10:28
a little bit of a six pack and everything else.
10:29
I was in good shape. But if you're in good shape
10:32
and you're young, but your liver is 45 to 50
10:35
years old, we're not going to risk that. Right.
10:40
Because I mean, they have to have insurance on
10:42
you, of course. Yeah. When are we going to risk
10:45
that? That's great. Why would we do that? The
10:49
right thing is what's exactly why we do the medicals.
10:52
Right. So they said I couldn't go. Now, like
10:57
I said before, both in our conversation and the
11:01
one we had before we started, people grieve very
11:05
differently. My grieving wasn't necessarily boo
11:10
-hooing and tears because I'm not that kind of
11:14
I don't emote that way. So I just went to work.
11:18
I carried on like it never happened because the
11:21
only thing worse than potential heartbreak is
11:24
being broke whilst you're heartbroken. There
11:27
was definitely a mourning and a grieving process
11:31
because I put so much weight on that. If I was
11:39
looking at me leaving the country as the first
11:41
step in many to becoming whoever, I don't know
11:45
if I can curse or not, but whoever the fuck I
11:47
wanted to be, right? I stumbled at the first
11:51
hurdle. And it wasn't because of competency.
11:56
It wasn't because I didn't understand it. It
11:58
wasn't because I wasn't good. It wasn't because
12:00
of none of that stuff. It was the kindness of
12:04
others. My willingness to celebrate before I
12:07
crossed the finishing line that now stopped me
12:10
from becoming this new thing. Because there's
12:14
no way I was going to continue being the Joseph
12:17
that everybody else knows and loves. Because
12:21
the environment I was going to go into wouldn't
12:25
allow that. So I kind of mourned the potential
12:31
change. I mourn the loss of the opportunity.
12:34
I mourn the loss of, you know, the pathway that
12:38
was gonna go down. Was there any shame involved
12:42
in that? 100%. Yeah. Because I was shitty at
12:46
this. Yeah. I celebrated. It's like watching
12:50
those YouTube videos where the guy puts his hands
12:54
up and celebrates before the finishing line and
12:56
the guy behind him just runs ahead. I was just
12:59
going to say that as an example because I've
13:01
seen that. You know, it's like, oh god. You're
13:04
gonna kick yourself forever because you celebrated
13:07
before. Like this person, you were winning. You
13:12
did it. Yeah. And it wasn't like your friend
13:15
said, you know what, we're going to ruin this
13:17
motherfuckers opportunity. So we're going to
13:19
drink him. That's not what happened. They were
13:21
as happy for the situation as I was. I think
13:24
that's what probably hurts the hurts more. Yeah,
13:28
because it wasn't with malicious intent that
13:30
this thing kind of fell through. It was from
13:33
kindness. I can't tell you how many liters of
13:38
Hennessy I'd consumed. It wouldn't it wouldn't
13:40
even sound realistic. When something like that
13:43
happens and there is shame involved What did
13:47
those feelings do to your relationship with hope?
13:52
I would shat it even now even now Even when you
13:58
think back to it or even now with hope even now
14:03
To put into perspective I have done Quite a lot
14:09
of good things in a very short period of time
14:12
even from the the creation of this book remind
14:14
I did write it ten years ago, but Rewriting it
14:19
putting it together creating The casing and everything
14:25
else making the stories I did most of that in
14:29
under a month Wow, if you look at when it was
14:33
posted on Amazon it was only I think on the 8th
14:37
of August Yes. I think I saw that. So it's only
14:40
been out just over a month. And in that time,
14:43
I've done seven podcasts, eight including yours.
14:50
There's four more lined up to do. I've done an
14:54
interview in an article about the darker side
14:58
of immigration and moving to another country
15:00
and everything else that's just been published
15:03
in Nigeria, right? Just to put it as an example,
15:06
right? Sure, yeah. And as wild as all that sounds,
15:10
I'm not celebrating none of that because the
15:13
last time I went, yay, everything got stripped
15:17
away. So now I don't even like I've watched I've
15:21
watched your face amongst others who I might
15:24
have explained this stuff to and they're like,
15:25
Yo, that's so good. And I'm like, in your book,
15:28
you talk about Being British and you know keeping
15:32
a low profile and you just keep on the path and
15:36
you walk and walk and then you got to Southern
15:38
California and everyone's like hey, what's up?
15:41
I'm doing this. I'm doing that It's weird, but
15:45
now you've been in California for how long? 12
15:49
years will be 12 years in December 12 years.
15:51
Okay, so you've got that British like keeping
15:54
your lane, you know typically funny and self
15:58
-deprecating, right? Like that kind of thing.
16:01
But obviously if you're lining up eight podcasts,
16:05
you obviously published your book that you wrote
16:08
10 years ago, just recently. And then you wrote
16:12
this paper on immigration, The Dark Side of Immigration.
16:17
To me that's trusting your judgment. That's having
16:21
a little bit of faith I know you're not celebrating
16:25
but what what helped you begin to do that to
16:28
take those steps? It might be I think I've said
16:32
this to you before or maybe I mentioned it that
16:35
I'm a recovering pessimist My logic is I've seen
16:41
The alternative route to continuing down a certain
16:47
path. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, if you're
16:49
an alcoholic, for example, a reason that you
16:52
might stop drinking or might not drink that night
16:54
is there is no fear of missing out. You know
16:56
exactly how this night's going to go if you stop
17:00
drinking. So my logic was I've seen what it's
17:04
like to be a Debbie Downer, to always find the
17:07
negative, to always kind of, oh, none of this
17:10
shit's going to work. I can think. And the smarter
17:12
you are, the easier it is to pick something apart.
17:15
Right. Right. So my logic was, all right, well,
17:19
I'm in I'm in America where some of the weirdest
17:23
and wonderful stuff happened simultaneously.
17:27
So if there is any place where something can
17:29
happen, this would be the place to. So let me
17:34
try and at least adapt some of the nuances that
17:41
everybody else. has around here because it's
17:44
served people otherwise nobody would do it just
17:46
like the the long neck giraffe it wouldn't exist
17:49
otherwise let me approach this not with the the
17:55
intellectualism of a brit and the optimism of
17:58
an american and see where that takes me but like
18:02
how weird was that like trying to adopt that
18:06
optimism you felt stupid you felt stupid You're
18:11
absolutely so stupid. It's like putting on, it's
18:14
like the, you know, when you were younger and
18:16
your parents used to take you to go get new shoes
18:18
and the tests that would put you through before
18:21
you kind of, you know, they put your heels in
18:23
it. Can you run around in it? Now, you know,
18:27
as the child, you don't know that your parents
18:31
are testing these shoes out for your everyday
18:34
movements. Because you're a child, of course
18:36
you're going to run. You don't want to step out
18:38
of your shoes. Where's your toe on the shoe?
18:41
They touch you and blah, blah, blah. Now to you,
18:44
you feel ridiculous in the store. And truth be
18:47
told, for those watching, you do look ridiculous.
18:50
Well, you only look ridiculous to those who don't
18:52
know what you're doing. Right. Do you see what
18:55
I'm saying? Everyone's been through it. That
18:57
seems to be a tried and true method to find out
19:00
whether these shoes will fit you and you can
19:02
maneuver and move around with them. but you still
19:04
feel stupid doing it. So that's what it was for
19:10
me. I can't tell you the amount of times where
19:14
I might be walking around somewhere and someone
19:18
doing a Starbucks run will be like, hey, how
19:20
are you doing? I'm assuming that the person they're
19:25
talking to is behind me. Because that's how it
19:30
is out here. And if you don't say anything, He's
19:34
a fucking asshole, right? Absolutely. Yeah, and
19:37
you go no no, it's just I'm not used to that
19:40
because I've met someone that looks just like
19:43
you and we would just walk past each other in
19:45
the exact same scenario What with this sunny
19:48
disposition comes a change in behavior? So did
19:51
that make it easier for you? Like when somebody
19:53
said hey, how you doing? Did you start to answer
19:56
you you started? Okay, because what again because
19:59
I've done the alternative The rules that work
20:03
over there and operate over there don't work
20:05
over here. Now, a friend said, why don't you
20:08
just go to the East Coast? That's probably similar
20:11
to London and everything else. They're a lot
20:13
more kind of leave me the fuck alone, mind your
20:16
business, I'll mind mine. But I'm like, the change
20:20
isn't going to come for me if I just go to somewhere
20:23
that's just like where I came from. Come on.
20:27
I noticed that the first time I ever went to
20:30
Italy, I was in Venice and I would walk into
20:33
a shop and I am from California. I lived here
20:38
my entire life in the North Bay of California,
20:40
right? And of the Bay area. And I would come
20:46
in and bonjourno, you know, like just me normal.
20:49
And I noted that when I did that, the store merchants
20:55
would either completely ignore me or look at
21:00
me like I was immoral. And at first, I was kind
21:05
of offended, like, oh, my Italian's so bad. Like,
21:08
this is what's going on. And then I realized,
21:12
yes, I did realize that when I walked in and
21:15
I didn't say a word, they eventually came over,
21:20
asked me how I was doing, could they help me,
21:23
what am I looking for? And I just was like, That's
21:27
so weird, but it was definitely me having to
21:31
suppress my normal greetings, sing -song -ness,
21:37
cheeriness, you know, like it was very difficult.
21:40
And so now listening to you reading your book,
21:43
I'm thinking, my God, what if I lived in Italy?
21:46
I would really have to suppress that, you know,
21:50
otherwise they think, oh, there's like loud American
21:52
or whatever they think, I don't know, you know,
21:54
but But now, I've come to the conclusion, again,
22:01
this recovering pessimist, that the transformation
22:04
you go through with this to success, to become
22:07
whatever, you try to change weight loss, we gain
22:10
company, bright books, whatever, you're this
22:14
block of cheese that goes through a greater.
22:17
And the greater takes away the majority of the
22:22
stuff. that you are good with where you are.
22:27
And it leaves you, if you survive the transition,
22:30
because there is definitely one of those, with
22:33
what you would need in order to move around in
22:39
this new environment. Kind of like to form you
22:42
back together again. Right. There it is. OK.
22:45
Because nobody puts a block of cheese inside
22:47
of a sandwich. It's normally sliced thin. Yes.
22:51
Well, great. It's the exact same thing because
22:53
it has to be broken down for it to fit into this
22:58
new thing. Yes. Whether it's on a piece. You've
23:01
never seen a block of cheese on a pizza. But
23:05
it's still cheese. It's still cheese. It's still
23:09
cheese. It's like how it's still you. Yes. But
23:13
there is now less of the event nuances that we
23:19
all know. So a quieter more demure more I'm just
23:26
here to because when you were like, hey, everyone
23:29
said we don't like her or And after a while one
23:34
of two things happen you have a go screw this
23:36
and going home. Yes, or you go Let me acquiesce.
23:40
Let me adjust. Let me kind of be a little bit
23:42
quiet because I still need to get service So
23:46
I operate on their system and slowly but surely
23:51
enough of those interactions happen and then
23:54
that becomes the baseline. So then when you go
23:57
back to America, what happened? You seem so quiet.
24:01
Is everything okay? And you're just like, oh
24:04
shit, this is how I have to act when I go back
24:06
to the States. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know
24:11
if I'd survive that because I am. You would.
24:15
Well, I'd survive it. I don't know if I'd stay.
24:18
I think I might be the person that's like, yeah,
24:20
this is not for me, you know, because I have
24:23
a pretty strong person like anyone listening
24:25
to this that knows me is going to start laughing
24:28
when you're like, you would be more quiet. No,
24:31
I'm very, I'm not, you know, so I just, but who
24:34
knows? I've never done it. So I can't say with
24:38
definitive. Oh, I couldn't do that. So I can't
24:41
do that. Okay. In your book, you make an important
24:45
distinction between blame and ownership. So we
24:51
may not have created a circumstance, but eventually
24:55
we inherit a response to it, okay? How do you
25:00
encourage ownership without implying that people
25:04
cause the harm done to them? You've almost got
25:10
a Flintstone vitamin in them. We know the concept
25:14
of flintstone vitamin well, though It's it's
25:17
colorful and it has your favorite character on
25:19
it that the medicine still in there, right? So
25:22
you have to flip the way it's perceived I could
25:25
turn around and say it's your fault or I could
25:29
say you're responsible for how this can turn
25:32
out It's the exact same thing. It's the difference
25:36
between I don't know Maybe how your dad says
25:38
it to you and how your mother says it to you
25:41
The sentiment is the exact same. So with that,
25:47
it might be the same answer. When does understanding
25:51
why something happened help us heal and when
25:56
does it begin to keep us stuck? Intention. I've
26:01
watched and studied fighting for as long as I
26:03
can remember, right? And the majority of them
26:07
tend to have issues. Right, that's why outside
26:12
of the ring they might be doing some crazy stuff
26:14
that you might not approve of same thing with
26:16
most people are in combat in sport or sports
26:18
or Sports that involve collisions, right? I heard
26:24
a boxer say something that was arguably It was
26:30
stepped over but you didn't realize how serious
26:33
that statement was and then Mike Tyson later
26:35
on echoed something similar where essentially
26:39
he wanted to become, he wanted to do therapy,
26:44
right? The new buzzword, we wanted to do therapy,
26:46
but he wanted to do therapy so that he could
26:49
be a better father to his daughter, right? Honorable.
26:56
Yeah. Here's the problem with that. If he went,
27:00
and he even said this, his fear, and this ties
27:03
to his identity as well. His fear is that if
27:06
he went through therapy and become more healed
27:10
as a person, he wouldn't be a good fighter anymore.
27:14
Ah, okay. Because in order for you to be a fighter,
27:18
there's a well of either anguish or anger or
27:21
trauma that you have to draw from to be capable
27:25
of doing what you need to do, right? Because
27:27
even Mike Smithson said it, I smoke weed now,
27:31
I eat gummies. podcaster, I'm not the guy that
27:37
you guys have known me to be. I can't tap into
27:40
that. And if I do, I don't know if I can come
27:42
back because it took me so long and I worked
27:45
so hard to get away from that. Right. Do you
27:48
know what I mean? We keep forgetting that the
27:49
Tyson that we grew up with, he was, for lack
27:55
of a word, it was like being around a wild animal.
27:57
You never knew. Yeah. Interviewers used to kind
27:59
of talk to him from a distance. There's a myriad
28:03
of stories that rappers can tell you about their
28:06
interactions with him. Absolutely. Yeah in comparison
28:09
to him now Holyfield's missing part of his ear.
28:11
I mean, come on. Yeah, but now 10 20 years later,
28:15
there are gummies that shaped like Holyfield's
28:18
ear Yeah, but the interesting part of that And
28:32
I mean good for Mike Tyson and others like that.
28:36
He changed, he doesn't fight anymore. And so
28:39
was it easier for him to do this transition into
28:44
a calmer, more sane? The change started long
28:47
before that. The change started when he started
28:51
to adapt more peaceful practices. Do you know
28:57
saying when he started I think he converted to
28:59
Islam or something like that? And he started
29:01
to pray more and he started to do the rest of
29:03
this stuff. He was still fighting He was ah All
29:12
he would do was study conquerors got it Yeah,
29:17
this is a guy who you wouldn't expect but if
29:19
you had a conversation with him he could lay
29:21
down Historical conquerors throughout the decades
29:24
because that's who he studied because that's
29:27
who he channeled. That's who he wanted to be
29:29
like You wouldn't expect him to have a conversation
29:32
about Alexander the great and anybody else. No
29:35
But that's who he studied conquerors To become
29:39
a conqueror, right? It's interesting so he's
29:44
had a few changes because now I don't know who
29:47
he was as a child or any of us, but you know,
29:51
my, he was a bad child. Is that what you said?
29:53
Very troubled. He's only friends with pigeons.
29:57
That is true. I forgot about that. Yes, that's
29:59
right. All right. That's Tyson to be an entire
30:03
podcast. You write that adults often disguise
30:09
permission seeking, permission seeking as advice.
30:14
How can we recognize when we are gathering information
30:19
and when we are actually asking someone else
30:22
to authorize our future? It's very rarely separate.
30:28
It's normally the same, then only one in the
30:30
same. If I go, hey, what do you think about this?
30:36
That's me asking permission. Yes. Wouldn't this
30:41
be cool if still asking permission hey me and
30:46
the guys were talking and we just thought still
30:49
asking permission because you're waiting for
30:53
the validation that comes with their answer hey
30:56
i'm thinking about starting a podcast what do
30:58
you what do you think about that yeah you have
31:02
some good points and that either gives you the
31:04
battery in your back to go yeah i'm gonna start
31:07
one or i don't know they're stuck in the past
31:11
But there are a lot of people who've had better
31:15
ideas and better concepts and better pitches
31:18
than me and you can ever come up with. But they
31:20
ran it past one person. That person said, I don't
31:23
get it. And then they went, yeah, maybe that
31:25
was stupid. And then they just never did it.
31:28
Or they go, I'm going to do it anyway. Right.
31:32
But those people are few and far between. That's
31:34
why we idolize rebels. Think about it. Does it
31:40
have to be a rebel? Could it just be somebody
31:42
that trusts themselves? Nope. No? Because most
31:46
people don't trust themselves. So people who
31:48
do are rebels. That's why we love villains in
31:52
movies. That's why we love them. Don't get me
31:57
wrong. What they do afterwards might be heinous
31:59
and crazy. But if you think about your favorite
32:02
villain, they're up against a wall. The odds
32:07
are ridiculous. They plan something out. They're
32:10
very disciplined. They're meticulous in their
32:13
thinking. They're pragmatic in their actions.
32:16
And they stop at nothing to get it done. Every,
32:20
I don't know, girl boss story is still the same.
32:26
Every guy story where the Gordon Geckos and the
32:31
Wolf of Wall Street type characters, they're
32:33
not good people at all. Even the Jordan Balfour,
32:39
whatever, they're not good people, but they're
32:41
people that display rebellious tendencies. And
32:46
because the majority of people are conformists
32:49
and people who follow around, when they see that
32:52
in others, it's badass, it's cool, it's something
32:56
you want to do. They fight the power. Okay. All
33:02
those people that you mentioned, yes, but what
33:05
if it's just, I mean, I have a perfect example.
33:09
I tell people that I wanted to start a podcast.
33:14
I just did it. I researched it. I, you know,
33:19
the first thing I ever did was go on chat GPT
33:22
and say, how do you start a podcast? Right. Like
33:24
I thought that's a good place to start. Right.
33:26
And then I researched it and researched it and,
33:29
uh, You're only proving my point in this, right?
33:32
You know that. Well, OK, but here's the thing.
33:35
Yes, you're saying like I'm seeking something,
33:38
right? But but I also. I'm trying to say this
33:45
cohesively, I also did ask a few people some
33:51
things and. Once I started. I. I didn't, I asked
34:00
people, I did ask people for their feedback,
34:03
but that feedback was for me to say, like here,
34:08
is anyone connecting with this? By their feedback,
34:12
right? And yes, if they had all said, no, I don't
34:16
get it. I don't get it at all. Right? Yes, probably.
34:20
I don't think I would have stopped. That's not
34:23
me. Rebellious. I don't think it's rebellion.
34:26
I think it's a drive. And it's a knowing, Joseph,
34:34
that I am correct. I trust myself. OK, watch
34:40
this. I'm going to use the exact same thing.
34:43
Let's imagine you're on a date, right? What's
34:47
that? You're on a date. You're going on a date
34:52
with this person, guy, girl. I don't know what
34:54
your preference is. Guy. Yes. Yes. Right. And
34:57
he says to you, no, he says, are you enjoying
35:03
this date? Right. You say I am. And he says,
35:07
yeah, I know you are. There's just knowing that
35:12
intrinsically that you're going to enjoy this
35:14
date. Now, if you like him, that sounds like
35:16
confidence. If you don't, that sounds like arrogance,
35:19
right? Right. Everything that you said right
35:22
now can be twisted to sound like arrogance. Yes.
35:26
And whenever you think of a villain, they're
35:30
not humble. Right. They're arrogant. They're
35:34
basically anti -society. They almost talk about
35:39
people as if they're less than, right? Not saying
35:41
that's what you do. No. You did everything that
35:45
you wanted to do at your own pace your minion
35:48
was a chat GPT and all you needed was just a
35:53
Pathway. Yes. How do you do this? I'll get it
35:57
done. Yes competency You followed a plan to a
36:03
tee the only thing you didn't only thing you
36:05
did different was that you asked hate the consumers
36:08
Hey, did you like the you like the? Do you like
36:11
the drugs that I'm putting out right now? They're
36:13
like, yeah, it's okay. It's cool. Yeah. How do
36:15
I make the drugs better? You can add this. Okay.
36:20
And then you continued pushing. Yes. All of these
36:24
traits typically are rebellious traits. The only
36:30
thing that you did that wasn't rebellious was
36:32
ask how they like the product. Outside of that,
36:36
everything else was you. But see, I believe,
36:42
and you and I talked about this the last time
36:44
we spoke, that we all have that ability. We all
36:52
have the ability from the day we were born, we
36:59
know what to do. I think because of circumstances
37:04
and because of family, religion, just societal
37:10
expectations, it changes what we know. And of
37:17
course we have to have some rules and regulations,
37:20
right? Otherwise we just walk around all like,
37:21
you know, crazy society. But I do feel that we
37:27
know what to do, that we don't need others. Holding
37:31
us down and all that stuff and and and we don't
37:34
need to question ourselves all the time or think
37:38
what will they think of me i think we knew that
37:42
as a as a young child and we lose it somewhere
37:46
and we gotta come back to it. The problem is
37:49
is that what you're describing is a rites of
37:52
passage. Right in between. Yes, and the thing
37:58
is, not everybody gets the rites of passage.
38:02
That's where the road separates. Gets it as it
38:07
understands it? Okay, yeah. Everybody understands
38:10
it. So for example, I think if you think of a
38:14
little child that's fallen over, the first thing
38:16
they do before they cry, they look over at the
38:19
parent or whoever is watching them, and if the
38:22
parent goes, Oh, no. Then the car, the kid goes,
38:24
oh, shit. And then starts to cry. Right. Yes.
38:28
But if you go, you're all right. You had a little
38:31
bump. Get up. They go, OK, and continue. Right.
38:35
Right. Right. The same thing with the next rites
38:38
of passage where you teach your child to stand
38:41
up for themselves, then you do something that's
38:45
wrong. And then the child stands up for themselves.
38:49
Right. If you want the lesson to be maintained,
38:53
That's when you have to be like, you know what?
38:55
You're absolutely right. But if in that moment,
39:00
your pride is more important than the lesson
39:02
that you tried to teach, and then you beat them
39:05
down again, they don't learn that lesson. They
39:11
don't get the rites of passage. They don't get
39:15
to be the rebel. They don't get to have a level
39:17
of conviction because the moment where they got
39:19
to stand up for themselves, the person who told
39:23
them to do that blew them back right now there
39:27
are a lot of people where they had that opportunity
39:31
to pop their head up and kind of see what's around
39:34
but unfortunately they were around the whack
39:36
-a -mole so when they did pop their head up got
39:40
slammed back down yeah and then they never out
39:44
of fear of being hit again they never popped
39:46
their head up They kept their head down, they
39:50
minded their business, because at least here
39:52
isn't the best existence, but at least here I
39:54
don't get hit. Right. So when you're talking
39:58
about you doing what you did, you might have
40:01
been one of the few that go ahead and said, oh,
40:03
I just get hit. That's the cost. Fine, I'll pay
40:06
it. Right. But there are others that don't. Yes.
40:09
I understand that. Yeah. I still think the knowing
40:13
is there, but now they have to be self preserving.
40:17
But there's no permission. Yeah. Whose approval
40:20
was hardest for you to stop dating? I'm African,
40:26
so it always starts with parents. It always starts
40:31
with parents because there's a level of tradition
40:34
that comes with it. You know, I'm a junior, so
40:41
my father's point of view held quite a bit of
40:44
weight. African -born mother's words hold weight.
40:50
But then what happens, and I've realized this
40:53
because it kind of intersects with the conversation
40:57
I had with the Nigerian interview, where there
41:04
are that rites of passage of when the parent
41:07
wants to discipline you or hit you for doing
41:09
something bad or whatever or what they deem is
41:11
bad. You defend yourself doesn't mean you hit
41:17
back you just stop them from hitting you There's
41:20
a rites of passage now that you go. I'm not going
41:24
to allow this to happen to me regardless of who
41:26
it is, right? The problem is that there are those
41:31
that still took the beating or the flogging or
41:34
the whooping award the discipline wherever and
41:37
because of that they never then They never branched
41:41
out because it always starts at home. Everything
41:43
starts your first rebellion, whether you snuck
41:47
out, whether they said come home at 10 and you
41:50
came home at 1030. Or if you're from the 90s,
41:55
you know, when somebody called, you had another
41:58
phone. So that way it sounded like you asked
42:00
somebody else's house when you weren't. But if
42:04
there isn't those little moments of rebelliousness,
42:12
You're more likely to conform and you'll be miserable
42:14
when you do it because like you said there is
42:16
a knowing Yes, that there is more than this,
42:19
right? But you haven't been given enough thumbs
42:23
up in the past When we change you said that people
42:27
might be grieving us that was at the beginning
42:29
of this podcast, right? Grieving who we were.
42:31
Okay, right Do you believe that they're grieving
42:36
the the access the compliance the familiarity
42:40
the control they once had over us. Yeah. Yeah.
42:45
Yeah. Why not? If it's the equivalent of somebody
42:51
changing your favorite couch or changing the
42:55
cushion on your favorite couch. So even if I
42:57
put another chair there, you miss how the old
43:00
one felt. Right. You know what I mean? Yes. Or
43:03
if you're at a certain age and you remember that
43:06
when your dad came home, there was a chair he
43:08
used to sit in. and it was his chair. He didn't
43:12
mind all the BS that happened around as long
43:15
as he managed to come back and sit in that chair.
43:18
There's a place he always used to sit at the
43:20
table, so there's always a place he used to sit
43:22
in the overall house, apartment, complex, whatever.
43:26
And if you come home one day and sit in that
43:29
seat, and it's a brand new seat, Yeah, I don't
43:35
care what other bells and whistles it has it's
43:37
not the seat that I used to say it's not comfortable
43:40
right any Do you feel I know my answer to this
43:46
question, but do you feel that relationships?
43:50
Sometimes depend on us continuing the role we
43:54
play Yeah, so the thing is they say in these
43:58
counseling or like relationship type podcasts
44:00
or whatever that you constantly have to reintroduce
44:04
yourself to the partner. So if I grow and you
44:08
don't grow, one of the problems will be is that
44:10
I've changed as a person and you have. Right.
44:13
Right. And you see it all the time in those types
44:15
of relationship podcast where she just she just
44:19
act different now. Right. She grew and you didn't.
44:24
And because you didn't. Now the relationship
44:27
feels stagnant. But if she grows and you grow
44:32
now part of your relationship is going You look
44:37
familiar, but different let's find out what the
44:39
differences is and let's see how we can kind
44:42
of work this out Right when there isn't that
44:45
then what fills that space where you're trying
44:49
to figure me out. I'm trying to figure you out.
44:50
It's complacency Because I don't like dancing
44:54
anymore. I like to play music and you're still
44:58
trying to take me dancing Right. So I'll do it
45:01
the first couple of times because that's what
45:02
we did. But now I need you to learn something
45:07
new. Right. Because otherwise I want to get bored
45:10
and we know where boredom goes. Yeah. That back
45:13
and forth. It's and the growing together. Like
45:16
I remember years ago, I had a client that went
45:20
to a something like 65, 70 year old anniversary.
45:25
It was a long, long time of this couple. and
45:29
the man got up on the stage with a lot of assistance
45:32
and he talked about the years that and his wife
45:37
was sitting in a chair near the stage she couldn't
45:39
climb the stairs and he talked about their life
45:44
together and that at one time she had left him
45:50
and lived with another man he and she said that
45:53
she didn't love him anymore Then she had broken
45:56
up with that man. And now he's telling this to
45:58
the entire party. Okay. And it amazing. And so,
46:05
uh, and then he said that she, it didn't work
46:08
out with this new fella and that she came back
46:11
to him and said, I've made a mistake and I love
46:14
you. So then years later, he decided, I don't
46:19
think I'm in love with you anymore. And I'm going
46:22
to move out. And she asked him not to. And he
46:26
kind of went back and forth. And so his entire,
46:29
you know, wrap up of his speech was we have loved
46:34
each other for this long. We have fallen out
46:39
of love with one another a few times, but we
46:45
never fell out of love with each other at the
46:48
same time. And that was, you know, that to me
46:52
was pretty like, Huh, that's very different.
46:55
So like what you're saying, if I like we used
46:59
to go dancing and now I'm not that into it anymore.
47:02
I'm going to need you to also get into what I'm
47:07
doing or appreciate it in some way and not expect
47:11
me to do the same old thing over and over again.
47:13
And that way you grow together. Because the alternative
47:18
is creating tradition. And you see how societally
47:24
we treat traditions not very outdated it's not
47:27
cool why am i doing this yes well you know we
47:31
normally do this okay but why this is stupid
47:34
why are we doing this and eventually complacency
47:37
sets in because most people don't know why they
47:40
do any tradition anywhere do you think we owe
47:46
people compassion while they adjust Even if we
47:51
don't owe them a return to who we were before.
47:55
Yeah, because there's a very good chance that
47:57
they gave you the same thing. It just looked
48:00
different to you. If we both sneeze, you might
48:05
sneeze quietly, I might sneeze loudly. We both
48:07
are going to need tissues at the end of the day
48:09
for the sneeze. So you can't complain that someone
48:17
is the same. And when they attempt to change,
48:20
don't give them enough space and time and grace
48:24
to do so. Right. Yeah. And when we find the ones
48:30
that don't give us the grace, that's in my experience
48:35
is when you move on. You know, you maybe don't
48:38
move on right away, but I do. I don't know, maybe
48:44
it's my age. I'm not so sure, but I just know
48:47
that I want to be around people that are maybe
48:55
challenging themselves and compassionate towards
48:58
one another and especially in the society that
49:01
we live in today. I don't want the stagnant and
49:11
I don't want the negativity I want to keep pushing,
49:17
and I want to be surrounded by people that push.
49:21
OK, but count the counterstatement. You can't
49:25
push air. There has to be something to resist
49:30
against. The change comes from a level of resistance.
49:35
So if you say, I want to be a dancer, and he
49:38
goes, no. Part of you now goes I'm gonna prove
49:43
him wrong. That's the challenge which is back
49:45
to your rebel theory In your email I have to
49:54
read this because I have to remember exactly
49:55
what you said you wrote that the insecure self
49:58
made us prepare The angry self made us formidable
50:03
Mr. Tyson, right the people pleaser kept us connected
50:09
And the hyper independent self protected us from
50:12
disappointment. If these identities once served
50:17
us, how do we know when the job is finished or
50:20
is it ever finished? When you change, you change.
50:24
What used to be like, I'm sure you've seen like
50:27
these testimonies with couples who have been
50:29
married for a long time and the stuff that they
50:32
thought was once corny or annoying now becomes
50:34
endearing. Yeah. because with time and patience
50:39
comes context. Hopefully, and I use the word
50:42
hopefully because it's not always a guarantee,
50:45
but hopefully with your experience on your journey,
50:52
it provides you with a level of discernment.
50:57
Yes. Because there is a time and a place to potentially
51:00
become a people pleaser. If you're trying to
51:03
rally money up to be able to perform an act,
51:06
or a service, you don't need to come in with
51:10
the F these people mentality. That's not going
51:13
to get you anywhere. You got to be able to please
51:15
the people. Your anger sometimes might be the
51:18
reason it protects you from stuff. Same thing
51:22
with your ego and your pride. I don't need to
51:24
put up with this. I shouldn't put up with this.
51:27
But your experience should hopefully teach you
51:31
when these four horsemen of the apocalypse should
51:35
get to ride out. Otherwise, your inability to
51:41
people please will be a distraction. Your inability
51:46
to control your anger will be a distraction,
51:48
whether it's outwards or inwards. I know people
51:51
personally who've gotten so angry that they've
51:53
developed ulcers, but because they were taught
51:56
not to scream or to be physically violent towards
52:00
a bag or anything, it just bubbled and boiled
52:03
inside. Insecurities, like there are... gaslighting
52:06
boyfriends and girlfriends who watch people flirt
52:10
and when someone says, ah, that's just you being
52:12
insecure. Part of the one of the horsemen should
52:15
be like, no, that's not what this is. Discernment.
52:19
Which version of you that once protected you?
52:24
What did it cost you after that stopped being
52:27
useful? What did it cost you? Cost a lot. A bit
52:31
about me when I first came out here, when I was
52:34
able to kind of be able to get around with that
52:36
go -kart. I used to go from Muay Thai gym to
52:41
Muay Thai gym and just spar and beat people up.
52:43
I didn't used to speak, so a lot of people didn't
52:45
even know I wasn't from there. I was just the
52:47
guy with the red shin guards. The problem came
52:50
later on in life now where I wasn't doing that
52:54
because I realized it was childlike. Do you know
52:58
what I mean? I'm going to prove myself. It was
53:00
childlike, right? And then I had students. And
53:04
now some of my students are competing. And some
53:08
of those people that I might have rubbed the
53:10
wrong way when I was going gym to gym have now
53:12
become referees and judges and people who have
53:17
started promotions. So if you ask any of my students,
53:21
I always tell them, don't trust the referee or
53:24
don't leave it to the judges for two reasons.
53:28
One, because they might not see what you see
53:30
and there might be a level of disdain that they
53:33
might still have. Some kind of bias. Yeah, some
53:36
kind of bias. Yeah. So you can't leave it to
53:38
judges. But as sound as the advice is, it came
53:42
from a place of, well, I don't know. I don't
53:46
trust them. They might want to get some get back
53:48
because they couldn't get me. They'll get you.
53:51
It's the sins of the father kind of thing. Sure.
53:54
It hit those around me. Do you know what I mean?
53:58
And for a lot of people, a lot of us, It's very
54:03
we can continue being an asshole or whatever
54:06
if The side effects or the aftermath of the backlash
54:11
only hits you It's only when they hit others
54:15
or hits people around us. Do we go? I kind of
54:17
needed because I could I confirmed the consequences
54:20
But now you're having other people having to
54:24
shadow or sorry Firm and shoulder these consequences
54:27
that they didn't earn unnecessarily, right? but
54:32
Not everybody would think like, Oh, maybe this
54:37
has something to do with my past behavior or
54:40
my current behavior. And I need and it's affecting
54:43
these, these, these trainees of mine. And not
54:48
everybody is that reflective. Oh, it might be
54:53
my attitude, it might be what I've done in the
54:55
past. So everybody, everybody hits rock bottom
54:58
eventually. Hopefully, yeah. Everybody does.
55:02
It just looks different. And some people, because
55:06
of how they might insulate themselves, nobody
55:10
sees them crying on the kitchen floor. How do
55:13
you honor the self who helped you survive everything
55:17
without allowing that self to keep running your
55:22
life? Or anyone? I shouldn't say you. Our. How
55:27
do we honor the self? Little things. Small things
55:35
that don't mean anything to anybody else other
55:38
than little Joseph or little of that, right?
55:42
So if, for example, you were chubby when you
55:47
were younger and the thing that used to make
55:49
you shimmy and dance was an ice cream, it might
55:53
be an ice cream once every now and again. You
55:58
almost you have to pay homage because you're
56:00
not the person that that dreamt the dream You're
56:04
not You're the byproduct of the dream The person
56:09
who you had to become or They had to die in order
56:14
for you to become this person. I dreamt of moving
56:17
to the States and Becoming this trainer, etc,
56:21
etc, etc. Right. So the version of me that was
56:25
ignorant to health and fitness had to go Right
56:29
the version of me that was more selfish and Fuck
56:36
it. You can do on your own. Yeah that person
56:38
had to go The version of me that wouldn't talk
56:42
to or reach out and try and acquire clients that
56:45
person had to go The person who was so focused
56:50
on being part of the group. Yeah that person
56:54
had to go. Because he can't be around, especially
56:57
in the beginning stages of you being by yourself
56:59
in a country that you're not from. He can't be
57:03
around. Because if his wants and needs matters
57:07
more than who you're trying to become, you'll
57:09
go back to wherever you came from. You'll go
57:12
back to your comfort. I wonder if my take on
57:18
this is so very different from yours because
57:22
I have a level of comfort of being in the same
57:27
county, city, country that I've always been in.
57:34
And so yeah, and so I've never had to. I mean,
57:40
every day I put myself out there if I have a
57:42
new client, you know, I. I have to present myself,
57:46
right? But it's very different. Even going to
57:50
college, I went to college to a university that
57:53
is in the town that I live in. So I never had
57:56
that, that, oh, I got to deal with a roommate
57:59
and I don't know these people and all this stuff.
58:02
I had to walk into a classroom being much older
58:04
than everybody in that classroom. But it's a
58:10
There's still some protection. There's still
58:13
some of that comfort. So I wonder if that is
58:17
why I will use softer words than you, but also
58:21
I see it a little differently because my evolution
58:25
maybe was easier, a little bit more smoother
58:31
than what you experience when you take yourself
58:35
out of everything you know. It sounds like your
58:37
evolution. was smaller. Maybe. When I mean small,
58:44
I don't mean to take, I mean, as in it's like
58:48
the difference from going from riding a bike
58:51
to driving a car. So you still use this thing
58:56
as a way to go from A to B, but there is less
59:02
risk. If anything, there's more support going
59:04
from driving a pedal bike to riding a car now.
59:08
you could have got hit a lot on the pedal bike.
59:12
If you get hit in the car, there's a level of
59:14
insulation. Well, I just want to say that the
59:17
word support, I think you touched on something
59:20
that has made me realize that I have been very
59:25
lucky. I have had a lot of support my entire
59:29
life. And so it is perhaps why You know, you
59:35
were saying rebellion, but it might be why I
59:39
Trust myself and I'm comfortable enough. Yeah,
59:42
it's uh, yeah, it made me think of like that
59:45
that car I do have a lot of support and and I've
59:50
never taken That risk. Yeah, I've never been
59:54
out of it. Right? So in that growth in that reframe
59:58
to recover qualities that life caused you to
1:00:03
suppress? You can do tiny versions of it. But
1:00:11
you can't do the whole thing. Because eventually,
1:00:15
because if you keep doing the ice cream, you'll
1:00:19
backslide, you'll develop a taste for ice cream.
1:00:22
So then you'll be sitting at home and be like,
1:00:25
you know why? You know what will go great with
1:00:27
this? Ice cream. Yeah. You dibble and dabble,
1:00:32
you don't become a connoisseur because you've
1:00:34
been a connoisseur and you know where that ended
1:00:36
you. Right. You know where that puts you. You're
1:00:40
trying to be the horse with blinkers on because
1:00:45
when you were a horse without them, you were
1:00:47
everywhere. Yeah. You're now focused. The blinkers
1:00:54
is a great thing and a horrible thing. If you
1:00:57
want to be a sightseer, You can't have blinkers.
1:01:02
If you want to have a goal, you can't go without
1:01:05
them. Because there's too many things to see.
1:01:10
OK. There's too many distractions. There's too
1:01:12
many points of reference. So the death of that
1:01:19
identity, the death of whatever you were doing,
1:01:23
sometimes. old habits or old identities resurface
1:01:29
with stress and fear, rejection, whatever uncertainty.
1:01:34
If someone had been a smoker, they quit smoking.
1:01:37
If they begin smoking again, uh, people pleasing
1:01:41
or withdrawing, let's say, you know, you're,
1:01:44
you're going back to the Englishman that you
1:01:46
were once were. Okay. Doesn't that mean that
1:01:50
that former identity never really died? not died,
1:01:56
it didn't, can I put this? What you're, ah, there
1:02:01
we go. There's the writer in me. What you're
1:02:03
describing is phantom limb. That's what that
1:02:09
is. It's echoes of a life once lived. The guy
1:02:16
with one arm still feels like he can reach over
1:02:20
and touch something until the reality sets in
1:02:22
that he doesn't have it. But because he's gone
1:02:24
longer with it than without it, there's still
1:02:27
part of him or still part of his body that believes
1:02:29
it's still there. So whenever you're, you know
1:02:34
what, I could do with a smoke. Right. That's
1:02:38
the phantom limb. That's a reminder of the old
1:02:40
life. Stress -induced, sure. But it's still the
1:02:46
old life. That's not who you want. You might
1:02:48
get that one here and go, oh, right. That's a
1:02:53
wonderful feeling. But you've got you joined
1:02:56
the running club. Yeah, but people, you know,
1:03:01
they run the running club. Yeah. You can't do
1:03:04
this because you enjoyed the running club. You
1:03:07
enjoyed the runners high. And you doing this
1:03:10
is now preventing you from doing that. So even
1:03:15
if there is a retreat, a slip, even if you do
1:03:21
do that, this is what I would normally say. It's
1:03:26
not proof that your growth was false. No, it
1:03:30
can't be false. Because there are people who
1:03:32
have been on a fitness journey for so long that
1:03:34
when they eat the food that they used to eat,
1:03:36
it makes them gag. They still enjoy the taste
1:03:40
of it, but they might not like the aftermath
1:03:43
of it. feeling slow, feeling bloated, feeling
1:03:46
lethargic, face swelling, whatever. These are
1:03:49
almost signs that your body went, you see, we
1:03:52
don't do this no more. Do you know what I mean?
1:03:57
If you were a party animal in your 20s and you
1:03:59
said, you know, you had a bad breakup and you
1:04:01
said, you know what, I'm going back on the market
1:04:04
at 45. I'm gonna go to the club and see what
1:04:06
happened. At my 1040. Why is the music so loud?
1:04:17
Why is my feet hurt? Trying to unzip the back
1:04:20
of the dress so there's a little bit more room
1:04:22
in it. I don't even understand the music. Why
1:04:26
are people touching me? Why is everyone so close?
1:04:29
Your body is going, you're not supposed to be
1:04:33
here. But that's the way you used to deal with
1:04:38
stuff. but you've not been that person in so
1:04:41
long, that might have been your default. When
1:04:44
was the last time you stuck to your default settings
1:04:47
on your iPhone or your Android? The minute you
1:04:52
got it, you changed it instantly. You only go
1:04:57
back to the default settings when something is
1:05:00
wrong, right? And even then, once that happens,
1:05:03
the first thing you're doing is trying to correct
1:05:05
it. Here's a good chance you wouldn't even want
1:05:07
it anymore. Yeah, yeah, if I gave you a brand
1:05:11
new phone and you were able to Glitz it up and
1:05:14
put your case on it and put your own stink or
1:05:17
smell on it. So it's yours And then for whatever
1:05:22
reason everything is deleted You'll be mad as
1:05:27
shit yeah, cuz this cuz although this is my phone
1:05:32
it's not mine It doesn't have my personality.
1:05:37
It doesn't have my memories. It doesn't have
1:05:39
none of that. It's still my phone because I pay
1:05:42
the bill on it, but it's not personalized. It
1:05:47
doesn't hold the same way it used to. It doesn't
1:05:49
have pictures of girls nights out and people
1:05:54
graduating and me having this. It's just an empty
1:05:58
vessel. And once you've kind of progressed so
1:06:03
far to go back to factory settings, now you feel
1:06:07
like an empty vessel. For the person who hasn't
1:06:12
smoked in 20 years and then you smoke and you're
1:06:14
like, oh, why am I doing this? I know what it
1:06:19
does. I'm not sure that. I think at first I thought
1:06:23
you were saying the goal of change is to bury
1:06:25
the old stuff. I think I kind of was thinking
1:06:28
that, but maybe it's more to just integrate what
1:06:32
was useful and retire what's no longer needed.
1:06:36
You can't bury it. At best, what you can do is
1:06:42
burn it and keep the earn. And the earn might
1:06:47
be on the mantle somewhere. and you look to it
1:06:51
every now and again, or you look at it every
1:06:53
now and again, it's still gone. The earn sometimes
1:06:56
serves as a reminder. It's the teacher that doesn't
1:07:03
speak, doesn't point to a desktop or to a chalkboard,
1:07:09
but you've learned a lot of lessons from it.
1:07:13
And to backslide would be to do a disservice
1:07:15
to your teacher. Yeah, so take what you can of
1:07:20
it use it Use it for sure going because they
1:07:23
say that everyone is your teacher and sometimes
1:07:25
it's for stuff You should do and sometimes for
1:07:27
stuff you shouldn't you talk about momentum can
1:07:31
momentum carry us in the wrong direction Yes,
1:07:34
it can but intention Intention is like a GPS.
1:07:42
So even if you take a wrong turn, you're going
1:07:44
to end up where you're supposed to get there.
1:07:45
It's just going to take you a little bit longer.
1:07:49
So even in the Culver City stairs example of
1:07:53
me going there and eventually talking to people
1:07:55
and eventually doing a mini class and everything
1:07:57
else. If I didn't go that route, I'm pretty sure
1:08:03
because this happens a lot. And this is why if
1:08:06
you run into most Brits, they're not loud, not
1:08:08
because they haven't been taught that being loud
1:08:10
doesn't work, but because that conversation of,
1:08:14
wait, where are you from? Right. Always pops
1:08:16
up. Right. Now, if that where are you from pops
1:08:20
up, knowing that I'm holding resistance bands,
1:08:23
knowing that I've got like a ball in my hand,
1:08:25
knowing that I've got boxing gloves, a conversation
1:08:28
is always going to spark. The difference is that
1:08:32
one was them doing it, the other was me doing
1:08:36
it. Right. Does that make sense? So even if I
1:08:41
make the wrong turn. Ways will recalibrate. It
1:08:48
might take me a little bit longer to get to my
1:08:50
destination, but I'll still get there. Me putting
1:08:54
myself in the car and typing in where I'm supposed
1:08:57
to go is arguably the most important part. Speed
1:09:02
is just preference. If you want to get there
1:09:06
right now, you'll follow it to the lab. You'll
1:09:08
go there and you'll talk to people. You'll get
1:09:10
there faster. But if it's about potentially enjoying
1:09:14
the journey getting there, you might just go
1:09:17
there, train your person and go home until they
1:09:21
hear music. And that music isn't native to the
1:09:24
area you're in. And they go, oh, you like that
1:09:27
British stuff? And you go, yes, because I'm British.
1:09:29
And they go, oh, and you do And the loop still
1:09:34
happens. How do you know when it's time to steer,
1:09:38
stop or rest? Rest, I struggle with because I've
1:09:43
always been that person that just go, go, go.
1:09:46
It's almost a shock mentality where if you stay
1:09:49
still, you're afraid you might die. Yeah. But
1:09:54
you'll feel it. I don't think it's it's one of
1:09:58
those things that someone has to kind of pop
1:10:00
out at you and be like, you need to rest. If
1:10:02
you don't, the check engine light on your body
1:10:04
will definitely kick in. The only way you'll
1:10:07
understand it is by finding what that limit is.
1:10:10
But once you start to feel quality drop. If you
1:10:16
know, for example, you're a wordsmith of the
1:10:20
highest caliber, you have a retort and response
1:10:22
for everything. Whenever you respond, they go,
1:10:24
huh, I didn't think of that. And then when someone
1:10:27
asks you a question and you all of a sudden now
1:10:30
draw a blank. that's the check engine light start
1:10:33
small because at some point you know you you
1:10:37
have to be aware of what you can and can't get
1:10:41
away with and what you can and can't do otherwise
1:10:43
it will be costly later on you're there when
1:10:46
all the pen tests happen when the feelers happen
1:10:49
when the probing happens if you know you genuinely
1:10:52
know you not just when someone says i know me
1:10:55
and i think no you genuinely know I've had a
1:10:59
lot of conversations with a lot of people and
1:11:01
they might not know what they like, but they
1:11:03
know what they don't. Sure. Enough of that creates
1:11:07
a curriculum. Now, part of who you are as a person,
1:11:10
you have to be patient enough to teach the curriculum
1:11:13
to somebody else that you trust enough and care
1:11:16
enough about who they would be patient enough
1:11:19
to learn. Once you've done that, then you can
1:11:22
move accordingly. You distinguish motivation,
1:11:25
which is emotional. From momentum, right? So
1:11:29
which is behavioral, right? What is the smallest
1:11:33
action then that still counts as keeping a future
1:11:38
identity alive? It could just be not doing something
1:11:41
if you're trying to cut where I try and use Health
1:11:45
and fitness as a reference point because it's
1:11:47
the easiest for a lot of people to kind of take
1:11:49
in. Yeah And and everyone's kind of been through
1:11:52
some sort of a version of that, right? So if
1:11:54
you're trying to cut ten pounds, right? and it's
1:11:58
11, 11, 30, a small action could be just not
1:12:01
ordering off of the beads. Sometimes it's just
1:12:04
you not doing anything. Or like you said, the
1:12:08
smallest action. So either the smallest action
1:12:10
of not doing something or just taking the very
1:12:14
smallest action of putting on sneakers. Maybe
1:12:17
you don't go out, but put them on. Yeah, it's
1:12:21
that small action. Put your clothes up, have
1:12:24
it ready to go. Yep. Yep. have your gym membership
1:12:30
by your keys as a reminder. Smallest thing is
1:12:33
you'll be surprised. You miss enough opportunities
1:12:37
to reaffirm. Absolutely. Like the cigarette smoking,
1:12:42
right? I was talking about that. What happens
1:12:44
if you slip back, right? And you're like, oh,
1:12:47
you're in a runner's club. So you can't smoke
1:12:49
and run. But it's the ones that... when we take
1:12:57
the bad action and we smoke that cigarette, but
1:13:00
then we think about everything else that we've
1:13:03
built, it's the brain that goes, ah, fuck it.
1:13:10
And then that's a whole nother road to walk down.
1:13:14
That's a problem. This is why there's a lot of
1:13:17
people that build their houses or they build
1:13:21
their new foundation, new identity on that. So
1:13:27
let's say I used to be an avid smoker and I quit
1:13:32
smoking. Now there are a bunch of castles or
1:13:36
buildings exist on my ability to no longer smoke.
1:13:40
So I do a running club two or three times a week.
1:13:44
I do a test of like a VO2 max. I test my lungs
1:13:48
out. I plan on donating my lungs to science.
1:13:51
I do, do you know what I'm saying? There are
1:13:53
so many things. that are contingent on me not
1:13:56
smoking because it ruins so many other things.
1:13:59
Build your house on that. Part of your people
1:14:03
pleasing thing that never truly dies, never truly
1:14:06
dies, goes, I can't do this because if I do this,
1:14:10
then this, this, this, this, and this will fall
1:14:13
apart. When does sacrifice protect a priority
1:14:17
and when does it become unnecessary self -denial?
1:14:20
when it moves you towards what you're trying
1:14:23
to achieve. If you imagine it like somebody has
1:14:27
aspirations to join, let's say, the ballet or
1:14:32
a quartet or something to that degree, right?
1:14:34
And they know that the outfit that they've got
1:14:37
to get into is a size zero or a size two. Denying
1:14:42
yourself the treats that you might normally enjoy.
1:14:46
because you enjoy or prioritize getting into
1:14:49
this ballet thing more, is necessary, because
1:14:53
the goal is more important. When it no longer
1:14:56
serves you, that's when it becomes problematic,
1:14:59
because that becomes destructive. If you now
1:15:01
fought to get to that size two, and you've now
1:15:04
maintained that size two, you don't need to do
1:15:07
more stuff to get lower, because now you're in
1:15:11
a position of diminishing return. Let's take
1:15:13
it as, I'm gonna go to school. Okay. And like
1:15:16
you were saying in the beginning, you know, you
1:15:18
sacrifice going out with your friends. Like I
1:15:20
didn't see unless you got your hair done with
1:15:23
me. I didn't see you to the next break. I barely
1:15:26
spoke to anyone because I had to focus so much
1:15:29
work full time. Okay. So that's a sacrifice,
1:15:32
right? I had a goal and that was my sacrifice.
1:15:36
So that's like a pretty positive thing. My friends
1:15:40
may not have thought that like where is she?
1:15:42
You know that kind of thing. They may I don't
1:15:44
know but I was like highly highly focused but
1:15:48
because of my priority and sacrificing that I
1:15:52
Wonder if some would see it as a form of self
1:15:56
-denial for me. It was progress Like I'm just
1:15:59
keep going. Yeah, go see the self denial. Yeah,
1:16:02
you'll always You always the hero in your own
1:16:06
story The problem is that you're normally the
1:16:08
villain and somebody else is. Sometimes. Most
1:16:14
times, which is ironic because in the hero's
1:16:21
journey of becoming who you want to become, you
1:16:25
will accumulate enemies and it won't be people
1:16:27
whose toes you step on. It will be people who,
1:16:30
witnessing your journey, either inconveniences
1:16:33
them or makes them uncomfortable. Let's say four
1:16:37
or five of those times, right? You oblige your
1:16:39
friends, you go hang out, you get wasted or you
1:16:42
hang out and those are hours you could have been
1:16:45
spending studying. And then you fail. Your brain
1:16:48
naturally goes back to all those times you could
1:16:51
have studied and you went, what did I do it for?
1:16:53
So I can paint my fucking nip. That was stupid.
1:16:55
I could have, you know what I'm saying? And there's
1:16:57
a, there's a very good chance that the next time
1:16:59
around you double down and you overcorrect. So
1:17:02
you would rather do it like that the first time
1:17:05
so that you can then tailor or taper it back
1:17:10
on the next opportunity, then fail the first
1:17:13
time because at that point, you didn't give it
1:17:15
your all. Or you didn't know to give it your
1:17:19
all. When you're a child, anything you do, your
1:17:24
parents tell you, give it 100%. You're always
1:17:26
taught to give it your all. Yeah, but sometimes
1:17:28
you don't know what your all is. Like, you know,
1:17:32
you think, oh, yeah, I did it. I did it. And
1:17:34
you don't really know until You failed. And then
1:17:38
you're like, oh, my all. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
1:17:42
Okay. Yes. We agree. It doesn't matter what socioeconomic
1:17:47
situation you're in. It doesn't matter what race
1:17:49
you are. It doesn't matter what religion you
1:17:51
are. If you're going to do it, do it right. Give
1:17:54
it your all. Give it a hundred percent. But unfortunately,
1:17:59
when you're an adult, what a hundred percent
1:18:01
looks like sometimes feels detrimental. to everybody
1:18:05
else. Right. I agree with that. 100%. My 100
1:18:10
% isn't 100 if I've given 20 to you. Because
1:18:14
that was the 20 I could have needed to pass.
1:18:17
Like the friend that only wants to hang out after
1:18:19
they've studied. And that makes me think of the
1:18:23
title of your book, A Mark in the Sand. Like
1:18:26
to me, the way I interpret that is it's impermanent.
1:18:31
Of course. Right. And so What did that title
1:18:35
mean to you? Like, why did you chose that? And
1:18:37
what do you hope it leaves in somebody else?
1:18:41
So I chose that title because there are men and
1:18:48
women greater than me and you have done wonderful
1:18:51
and marvelous stuff. And as time has gone on
1:18:56
in the shores of tidal tides have risen and fallen.
1:19:01
their mark might be there, but it's faint. So
1:19:04
all you're trying to do is leave your mark before
1:19:09
you pass, before you die, before you transition.
1:19:13
Everybody should leave their mark in the center.
1:19:15
For some people, leaving their mark is their
1:19:17
children, but there are those that choose career
1:19:19
over children. So if that's the case, leave your
1:19:23
mark. The title of your book made me think of
1:19:26
years and years ago, I went and saw the Tibetan
1:19:30
monks do their colored sand mandalas. It was
1:19:35
this huge area and it was very quiet. No one
1:19:39
was speaking and they, you know, you watch them
1:19:42
and it was mesmerizing. And to know that the
1:19:47
minute they were done with it, it wasn't like
1:19:50
going to be a showing for the whole week. It's
1:19:54
just gone. And I just remember thinking like,
1:19:58
well, how could you take something that beautiful
1:20:00
and destroy it? And I thought, that is the beauty.
1:20:03
That is the beauty of not hanging on to the past.
1:20:09
And I think it's why I was so intrigued with
1:20:12
your email, right? So you could call that a death.
1:20:15
It's that forward movement. I kept thinking about
1:20:18
the title of your book for the last week and
1:20:21
a half. And I just thought, yeah, it's that impermanence.
1:20:25
that allows the freeing of what is to come. Because
1:20:31
if they if they don't wipe away the thing that
1:20:34
they did, then there's no space for them to do
1:20:37
more to become more. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I
1:20:42
got it. I think I got I got I got your book.
1:20:44
Yeah, I got it. I'm going to ask you a couple
1:20:48
rapid fire questions if that's OK with you. And
1:20:51
and then we're out. A belief you no longer carry.
1:20:55
That all would change is good. A former identity
1:20:58
you're grateful for. Having that young, angry
1:21:01
person definitely puts a lot of things into perspective.
1:21:04
A person who nourished your dream before it had
1:21:07
roots. The family member that I mentioned in
1:21:10
the book that passed. I think I know the answer
1:21:13
to this. A small action that changed the direction
1:21:15
of your life. Creatorship. Yeah, exactly. Creatorship.
1:21:20
Something you once needed permission to claim.
1:21:24
That was good enough. A lesson you learned from
1:21:27
being wrong. Sometimes it's about how you did
1:21:31
something or when you did something. All right,
1:21:34
last one. One word you associate with the person
1:21:39
you're becoming. Evolved, but still that one
1:21:43
for me. Anything else you'd like to add? Where
1:21:49
can we get your book? All that. So you can get
1:21:52
the book on Amazon. I want to leave you with
1:22:17
something you can do now. Think about one version
1:22:20
of yourself that you may be outgrowing. Maybe
1:22:24
it's the person who always says yes, stays quiet,
1:22:28
avoids risk, or needs everyone's approval. Instead
1:22:33
of judging that version, try to ask yourself,
1:22:36
what did this part of me once protect me from?
1:22:39
How did it help me get here? And what does it
1:22:42
no longer need to decide for me? Then choose
1:22:47
one small action that reflects who you're becoming.
1:22:50
Set the boundaries. Say what you really think.
1:22:54
Begin the thing you keep waiting to feel ready
1:22:56
for. You don't have to reject everything you
1:23:00
were to become someone new. And then appreciate
1:23:04
the person who carried you this far while deciding
1:23:08
they no longer have to lead. If this episode
1:23:12
brought someone to mind or even brought up something
1:23:16
about yourself, I hope you'll stay curious about
1:23:19
it. If you'd like to continue the conversation,
1:23:22
you'll find all of my contact information in
1:23:24
this episode's notes. I'm Evet DeCota. Thanks
1:23:27
for listening and I'll see you next time.