Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Blood, Sex Staging, Fiber Evidence: Chilling New Details in Murder of Two Delphi Little Girls

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Blood, Sex Staging, Fiber Evidence: Chilling New Details in Murder of Two Delphi Little Girls · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Chilling New details are now
0:15
Speaker 1: just emerging in the murders of two little girls, the
0:20
Speaker 1: case commonly known as the Delphi Case. Of course, I'm
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Speaker 1: talking about Liberty Libby and Abigail Abbey, two little girls
0:31
Speaker 1: as just thirteen and fourteen that lost their lives, murdered
0:37
Speaker 1: after a walk in a public park. Why are the
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Speaker 1: details just now coming out and what makes them so chilling?
0:49
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
0:52
Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Serious x
0:55
Speaker 1: one eleven. Once the hold up, Why don't we have
1:00
Speaker 1: a suspect, a defendant on trial right now and the
1:04
Speaker 1: murders of these two little girls, these girls younger than
1:09
Speaker 1: my little Lucy. We're walking across a threshold train bridge.
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Speaker 1: They took a picture, a picture of who we believe
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Speaker 1: is the killer. They have sound of his voice. The
1:26
Speaker 1: bodies were found. I believe there was DNA of the
1:30
Speaker 1: p on the bodies. They were active on social media
1:33
Speaker 1: leading up to the moment of their death. Why don't
1:38
Speaker 1: we have the double killer and why is there a
1:42
Speaker 1: shroud of secrecy surrounding their murders? I can tell you
1:48
Speaker 1: one thing. If this had happened to one of my children,
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Speaker 1: I would blow that police station wide open until I
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Speaker 1: got answers. How many years have passed since these little
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Speaker 1: girls were slaughtered? When will there be justice again? Thank
2:08
Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nations Series eleven.
2:12
Speaker 1: First of all, regarding the new and chilling details that
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Speaker 1: are just emerging, take a listen to our friends. Wish.
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Speaker 1: Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one
2:24
Speaker 1: of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while
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Speaker 1: the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared
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Speaker 1: the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes
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Speaker 1: on to say, based upon my training and experience, it
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Speaker 1: is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to
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Speaker 1: take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene.
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Speaker 1: The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming
2:48
Speaker 1: it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only
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Speaker 1: a few seconds have been made public, that the girls
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Speaker 1: were followed by the suspect on the Monon Hybridge trail,
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Speaker 1: and that there were no visible signs of a struggle
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Speaker 1: or fight. Did you take in what she was just saying?
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Speaker 1: I sh the first time I heard this I had
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Speaker 1: to make a chart of what all we are just
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Speaker 1: learning about the murders of Abby and Libby? Missing clothing?
3:24
Speaker 1: What the killer took some of the girl's clothing. That
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Speaker 1: tells me this absolutely was a sex assault. Why else
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Speaker 1: would he have had them undressed or take the clothes
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Speaker 1: off of them? Copious amounts of blood Heretofore we had
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Speaker 1: not known the cod cause of death. Now we're learning,
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Speaker 1: and it was very bloody crime scene staging of the
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Speaker 1: crime staging that typically suggest that the perp was not
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Speaker 1: rando random. A random killer kills and is out of there.
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Speaker 1: Who takes time to stage a scene and risk being
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Speaker 1: caught a souvenir? Is there a possibility the killer who
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Speaker 1: murdered these two little girls took souvenirs from the murder
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Speaker 1: to what relive the murders and the rapes if that
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Speaker 1: happened again in his mind? Over and over? And now
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Speaker 1: we know there are forty three seconds of video of
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Speaker 1: who we think is the killer, but the public has
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Speaker 1: only been allowed to hear a tiny portion of that
4:38
Speaker 1: this happened in twenty seventeen. Why are they holding it back?
4:44
Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to make sense of
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Speaker 1: what we know right now Doctor Jerry Crossing, psychologist, faculty
4:51
Speaker 1: Saint Leo University, author of Operation so Os. Cheryl McCollum
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Speaker 1: on the Case from the get Go, Founder director of
4:59
Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
5:04
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and
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Speaker 1: the star of a hit series Bodybags. With Joe Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: It's a podcast and it's on iHeart. Two special guests
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Speaker 1: joining us now Kevin Greenley, attorney and co host of
5:21
Speaker 1: Murder Sheet podcast. You can find him on Facebook at
5:26
Speaker 1: the Murder Sheet discussion group and with him senior reporter,
5:31
Speaker 1: business insider, co creator of Murder Sheet and Mystery to
5:36
Speaker 1: Me podcasts. Joining us out of Indianapolis is Anya Kane.
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Speaker 1: First of all, to you, Anya, tell me where this
5:48
Speaker 1: new information was buried. Yeah, this new information was in
5:54
Speaker 1: a search warrant that we obtained from twenty seventeen March
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Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen for the property of Ronald Logan. And
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Speaker 1: he is the man who owned the property where the
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Speaker 1: girl's bodies were found back in February of twenty seventeen.
6:09
Speaker 1: Hold on, let me you know, I'm drinking from the
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Speaker 1: fire hydrant. From you and Kevin Greenley, both of you
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Speaker 1: with Murder Sheet Podcast. Ronald Logan. I know the name
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Speaker 1: because he owned the property where the girl's bodies were found.
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Speaker 1: And this was a search warrant where you found this information?
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Speaker 1: Am I understanding that correct correctly? On your chaine? That
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Speaker 1: is correct? Yet it is a search warrant and a
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Speaker 1: probable cause Affidavid, that's the FBI filed to get that
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Speaker 1: search warrant approved. Kevin Greenley joining me along with on
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Speaker 1: your chain from Murder Sheet Podcast. Missing clothing, copious amounts
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Speaker 1: of blood staging. First of all, tell me about these
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Speaker 1: little girls missing clothing. Both details are really chilling, and
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Speaker 1: they really hilled us to the bone when we read
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Speaker 1: them in the Hey, Kevin, hold on just a second, Kevin,
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Speaker 1: we're saying chilling to me. That sounds like a script
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Speaker 1: and somebody's prompt her that some news talking head is reading.
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Speaker 1: Let's think about what we're hearing. Two little girls thirteen
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Speaker 1: and fourteen, that's my daughter's age and my son's age.
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Speaker 1: They are twins. A bloody crime scene, which means the
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Speaker 1: girls were stabbed or they were beaten, bludgeoned, with a
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Speaker 1: lot of blood, and then some of their clothes were missing.
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Speaker 1: It's almost out of a horror film, but it's real,
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Speaker 1: and it happened to a thirteen year old girl like
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Speaker 1: my little girl, and a fourteen year old girl unarmed
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Speaker 1: at a park. Chilling. It is certainly airbrushing what we're learning,
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Speaker 1: isn't it, Kevin Green, It really is. It almost made
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Speaker 1: me physically ill, if you want to know, it's true.
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Speaker 1: I live in a neighborhood that has kids at that age,
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Speaker 1: and to look at them living their lives and think
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Speaker 1: that there's some monster out there who looked at people
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Speaker 1: like that and instead sees them it's crag. It's it
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Speaker 1: makes you want to vomit. It's really just it's unbelievable.
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Speaker 1: You know Cheryl McCollum. You know Cheryl McCollum is the
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Speaker 1: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We
8:33
Speaker 1: know each other because we have fought in the trenches together.
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Speaker 1: I met her when I was a felony prosecutor for
8:41
Speaker 1: many years in inner city Atlanta. Never a lack of
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Speaker 1: business in inner city Atlanta, Cheryl. It never has ceased
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Speaker 1: to sicken me, and there were times when I would
8:56
Speaker 1: be trying a case in them. You may or may
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Speaker 1: not have known when everybody would leave for lunch, I
9:03
Speaker 1: would just go to the bathroom and feel nauseous handling
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Speaker 1: bloody clothes looking at crime scene victims, especially with children.
9:13
Speaker 1: I've never gotten over. Who could do this to a child?
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Speaker 1: Two little girls? I agree, Nancy. I don't know if
9:22
Speaker 1: I know that you went to the restroom to do that,
9:24
Speaker 1: but I vividly remember you would often touch the entire
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Speaker 1: case file and just say a quick prayer. I remember
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Speaker 1: that in this case. You sent me to Delphia more
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Speaker 1: than once. So I've been there, I've walked the scene,
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Speaker 1: I've walked the bridge, I've walked the trail leading to
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Speaker 1: the bridge. I've spent time with the family. And one
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Speaker 1: thing that sticks out to me that I want to
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Speaker 1: say right out of the gate, there is a difference
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Speaker 1: in a scene that is staged and a scene that
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Speaker 1: is posed. Tell it. If this perpetrator stage the scene,
10:00
Speaker 1: they did that for their benefit. So you try to
10:03
Speaker 1: make it look like over an accident or a suicide posed,
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Speaker 1: which I believe is what this scene is. If they
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Speaker 1: were posed, that is for the offender's gratification. He did
10:17
Speaker 1: something to make it look a certain way that he
10:20
Speaker 1: wanted for sexual gratification. You know, he was a freak
10:23
Speaker 1: that did that right, just for everybody's keys is a key,
10:27
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it Israel Keys. I was thinking of BTK
10:30
Speaker 1: Dennis rad buying torture kill. He would dress up his
10:38
Speaker 1: victims after he raped and murdered them. A lot of
10:42
Speaker 1: people don't know Ted Bundy would sometimes bathe his victims
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Speaker 1: and he would put on fix their hair and make up.
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Speaker 1: He would then have sex with their skull. But yes,
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Speaker 1: those are examples of the killer changing or say arranging
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Speaker 1: the scene in a way that gratifies their sex fetish. Correct.
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Speaker 1: So in this case, Cheryl, analyze what you're learning. I
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Speaker 1: believe again they were posed. I think having them undress
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Speaker 1: and redress, having taken an item again, that's for his gratification.
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Speaker 1: Somebody staging a scene wouldn't do that, like Drew Peterson
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Speaker 1: or Scott Peterson. They're trying to think, oh, somebody else
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Speaker 1: did this. This is not what you think. She drowned
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Speaker 1: in a dry bathtub. They're showing you something and telling
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Speaker 1: you it's something else to fool you. Okay, what she's
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Speaker 1: talking about is the former cop Drew Peterson, who killed
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Speaker 1: two wives. His third wife, Kathleen Savio, was found dead
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Speaker 1: covered in bruises in a dry bathtub. To make it
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Speaker 1: look like she had drowned, he killed her. Stacy Peterson's
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Speaker 1: body has never been found. I think I know where
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Speaker 1: it is, by the way, but that was staged, so
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Speaker 1: no one would ever know that she didn't run off
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Speaker 1: with a fake boyfriend. So to Cheryl's points, staging it
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Speaker 1: to make it look like, hey, I didn't do that.
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Speaker 1: It's very different from posing the scene for your own
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Speaker 1: sex gratification. Time stories with Nancy Grace, let me circle
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Speaker 1: back to you, Anya Kane, senior reporter with Business Insider,
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Speaker 1: which I love, and co creator of Murder Sheep. Anya,
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Speaker 1: tell me the facts that you have learned in your
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Speaker 1: investigation that jump out at you regarding the crime scene
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Speaker 1: of Abby and Liberty. Absolutely, Nancy. One thing that I
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Speaker 1: think is really key for people to take away from
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Speaker 1: this is that the FBI agent who wrote up this APPA, David,
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Speaker 1: said that the killer, most likely some of the injuries
13:01
Speaker 1: would have gotten blood all over him. So that makes
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Speaker 1: us wonder how did this person potentially covered in blood
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Speaker 1: managed to escape unseen? That is an excellent thought. What
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Speaker 1: about it, Joe Scott Morgan, you're the forensics expert champion. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you, Nancy, after reading this warrant,
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Speaker 1: there's a trope of information here for me, and they
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Speaker 1: give some indication here it's redacted, but they talk about
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Speaker 1: what type of weapon was used, and right before it
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Speaker 1: says the word right before the word weapon is written,
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Speaker 1: it's redacted right there, which means blacked out. And there's
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Speaker 1: only two choices here, a blunt weapon or an edged
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Speaker 1: weapon as a descriptor. My money right now is on
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Speaker 1: edged weapon because she talks about how much blood use
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Speaker 1: the term copious, which is just a huge volume of
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Speaker 1: blood that's involved in this case. You're not necessarily going
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Speaker 1: to get that so much with a blunt force type
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Speaker 1: of death. But with an edged weapon, particularly if you're
14:01
Speaker 1: talking about multiple, multiple deep stab wounds, you're you're going
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Speaker 1: to the perpetrator will literally be bathed in blood. So
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Speaker 1: how does he get away with this? Um? And I'm
14:14
Speaker 1: thinking that the individual would have had to have a
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Speaker 1: location that they could have escaped too, and then stripped
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Speaker 1: all of their clothing off of off of themselves so
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Speaker 1: that no one's gonna darkness or left in the cover
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Speaker 1: of darkness. Yeah, because you know that's one of the things.
14:31
Speaker 1: We've got a huge gap of time here, don't we, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: You know, relative to the discovery of the bodies, this
14:36
Speaker 1: sort of thing. We know that, So there is a
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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of time that he would have had with
14:44
Speaker 1: these poor young girls. And you know Mac had had
14:48
Speaker 1: talked about the posing that would have taken place, that
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Speaker 1: in and of itself takes time. So that means that
14:55
Speaker 1: the perpetrator will have spent a tremendous amount of time
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Speaker 1: with these bodies, handling the bodies, all these sorts of
15:01
Speaker 1: things to get them into these positions, not to mention
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Speaker 1: the violence that preceded all of this as well. Okay,
15:07
Speaker 1: let's analyze what you just said. Breaking it down, you
15:10
Speaker 1: said the copious amounts of blood equate to either a
15:14
Speaker 1: blunt force trauma like beating somebody with the baseball bat
15:17
Speaker 1: or a rock it causes a lot of blood, or
15:20
Speaker 1: stabbing them a sharp edge implement as you described it.
15:24
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. Sharp edge implement would produce
15:28
Speaker 1: a more bloody crime scene. However, you've got the other
15:31
Speaker 1: factor to weigh in that a blunt object would be handy,
15:36
Speaker 1: a rock, a tree, limb, something of that nature. So
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Speaker 1: those are two competing interests. I agree with you, sharp
15:44
Speaker 1: edge produces more blood, but I can't tell how much
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Speaker 1: blood except copious. Another thing that I read in the
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Speaker 1: search warrant by the FBI, and I quote a large
15:55
Speaker 1: amount of blood was lost by the victims at the
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Speaker 1: crime scene. It did note how the girls were wounded,
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Speaker 1: but that there were no signs of a struggle or fight.
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Speaker 1: Is that true, Kevin Greenley joining me from Murder Sheet podcast. Yes,
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Speaker 1: that is exactly what it says. And I also found
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Speaker 1: that to be terribly upsetting because I pictured those girls.
16:23
Speaker 1: When did the tasks start? And I imagine a thirteen
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Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl being placed in that kind of danger.
16:30
Speaker 1: Maybe you just breathe. You can't believe that it is
16:33
Speaker 1: happening to you. You're not able to fight back because
16:36
Speaker 1: you're in shock. And it just breaks my heart to
16:39
Speaker 1: think about what those two girls went through in those
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Speaker 1: tragic final moments, and the posing of the bodies would
16:47
Speaker 1: have to have been done post mortem after they were killed.
16:53
Speaker 1: To doctor Jerry Cross and psychologists joining US faculty Saint
16:56
Speaker 1: Leo University and author, what do you make of it?
17:00
Speaker 1: At a point here from I use the word loosely
17:04
Speaker 1: treating sex offenders, But the big thing with sex offenders
17:08
Speaker 1: is the fantasy, okay, And in a treatment you always
17:12
Speaker 1: need to get into their fantasy. So posing the scene
17:17
Speaker 1: is part of their fantasy that they're going to take
17:19
Speaker 1: away with them and relive. Okay, the fantasy is going
17:24
Speaker 1: to be better than what really occurred. They're going to
17:27
Speaker 1: work that in their mind, and that's going to become
17:30
Speaker 1: like I say that, you know, it could be a
17:31
Speaker 1: mass metorial type activity, but that fantasy is going to
17:35
Speaker 1: be the takeaway from there. So the posing of the
17:38
Speaker 1: bodies is going to be very important to him. That's
17:41
Speaker 1: going to be the image he's going to take with
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Speaker 1: him for the fantasy life. Take alos do our cut?
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Speaker 1: Seventeen Our friends at Fox fifty nine Murder Sheet, A
17:51
Speaker 1: podcasts investigating the unsolved murders of Abby Williams and Livy German,
17:55
Speaker 1: provided us a copy of this search warrant, and it
17:58
Speaker 1: reveals new acts about the crime scene where the girl's
18:02
Speaker 1: bodies were found out back on Ron Logan's Carroll County
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Speaker 1: property on February fourteenth, twenty seventeen. This is the gate
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Speaker 1: that left down two days after the bodies were discovered.
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Speaker 1: Ron Logan showed us around his property that backs up
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Speaker 1: to Deer Creek and sits at the bottom of the
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Speaker 1: gorge where the Monon High Bridge towers up above where
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Speaker 1: Libby German and Abbie Williams met the man who took
18:26
Speaker 1: their lives. See how the grounds much more matted down
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Speaker 1: right there there. I think you're right there. The search
18:35
Speaker 1: warrant from March seventeenth, twenty seventeen, recently made public reveals
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Speaker 1: Libby German shot forty three seconds of video on her
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Speaker 1: cell phone of this man following them on the bridge
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Speaker 1: at approximately two thirteen pm on February thirteen. Let me
18:51
Speaker 1: ask you to you on your chain with murder sheet
18:56
Speaker 1: forty three seconds but police above only released sound that
19:02
Speaker 1: they play on a loop. Maybe we got three or
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Speaker 1: four seconds. Why are they holding it back? I mean,
19:08
Speaker 1: it's been five years. That's an excellent question, Nancy, And honestly,
19:14
Speaker 1: I don't know it has been five years. I think
19:16
Speaker 1: more information at this point could really help potentially close it.
19:20
Speaker 1: I guess the other possibility is that there's not much
19:23
Speaker 1: on the rest of it. We do know that this
19:25
Speaker 1: exchange with the man saying, guys down the hill happened
19:28
Speaker 1: at the end of the video, so in the beginning
19:31
Speaker 1: it could have possibly been just the girls talking. Of course,
19:34
Speaker 1: I'm just speculating here, but that might be a reason.
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Speaker 1: I think anything that they said would be valuable at
19:39
Speaker 1: this point, like if they said, hey, here he comes again,
19:42
Speaker 1: that would tell me he had been stalking them. Something
19:45
Speaker 1: they said to start with could be probitive. It could
19:50
Speaker 1: prove something. Take listen now to our cut eighteen. Our
19:54
Speaker 1: friend Russ McQuaid let me German shot forty three seconds
19:58
Speaker 1: of video honors phone of this man following them on
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Speaker 1: the bridge at approximately two thirteen pm on February thirteenth,
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Speaker 1: and at noon the next day, the girl's bodies were
20:11
Speaker 1: found on Logan's property. There was quite a loss of blood,
20:14
Speaker 1: and the investigators think the killer may have gotten some
20:17
Speaker 1: of that blood on him, and item of clothing was
20:21
Speaker 1: missing from one of the girls and quote. It also
20:24
Speaker 1: appeared the girl's bodies were moved and staged, leading investigators
20:29
Speaker 1: to theorize that the killer took a souvenir from the
20:31
Speaker 1: crime scene and maybe took pictures. It looked to investigators
20:35
Speaker 1: like the girls died without putting up a fight. Unknown
20:39
Speaker 1: fibers and hairs were collected from the scene. I'm very curious,
20:45
Speaker 1: Kevin Greenley, what do we know about unknown hair and
20:49
Speaker 1: fiber collected from the saying of the girls murders. One
20:52
Speaker 1: thing that was mentioned specifically was that they recovered animal
20:55
Speaker 1: cares from the crime scene. Now, of course that could
20:59
Speaker 1: be well hairs. You know, we're in a park. Who
21:02
Speaker 1: knows people were walking their dogs and such. So we
21:05
Speaker 1: do know that one of the persons of interest in
21:08
Speaker 1: this case, Sagan Klein, lived in a home with a
21:11
Speaker 1: pit bull, and we do know that police rated that
21:15
Speaker 1: home a few months ago and they took that pit bull.
21:19
Speaker 1: Presumably it has to see the hair's match. Brilliant, brilliant.
21:24
Speaker 1: You know. The bodies of the girls, Abbey and Liberty
21:27
Speaker 1: were found about fourteen hundred feet from the home of
21:30
Speaker 1: Ron Logan. He was questioned, who's never named a suspect?
21:36
Speaker 1: Agree or disagree? Anya Kane Um, Yeah, that's a that's
21:40
Speaker 1: a great question. I would say that Logan. Here's the thing.
21:45
Speaker 1: They filed the search warrant and executed it in March
21:48
Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen. We never heard about it. Afterwards. He
21:53
Speaker 1: died of you know, after having some legal trouble over
21:56
Speaker 1: his DUIs, but never being charged for this case. So
22:00
Speaker 1: one has to imagine that they weren't able to find
22:02
Speaker 1: enough to charge him, or perhaps some other evidence came
22:05
Speaker 1: up to make them look another way. There's certain compelling
22:09
Speaker 1: things within this search warrant, but nothing that necessarily points
22:13
Speaker 1: to a history of being violent with children. Yeah. Well,
22:17
Speaker 1: there was nothing to say that Scott Peterson would kill
22:19
Speaker 1: his wife an unborn child either. So I've heard that
22:23
Speaker 1: argument many many times before. He's never done anything like this.
22:27
Speaker 1: So what you're just the messenger. I get it, Anya,
22:33
Speaker 1: but I don't like the message. Take a listen. When
22:36
Speaker 1: we're speaking of ron Logan, take a listen to our
22:39
Speaker 1: cut fifteen our friends at WISHTV. The search warrant is
22:43
Speaker 1: for the property of Ronald Logan, who owned the land
22:47
Speaker 1: where the girls were found dead. It describes his activity
22:50
Speaker 1: the data girls went missing. The agent says Logan claimed
22:54
Speaker 1: someone drove him to an aquarium store in Lafayette on
22:57
Speaker 1: the afternoon of February thirteenth, at the time the girls disappeared.
23:01
Speaker 1: But the agent says these statements were found to be
23:04
Speaker 1: factually false and intentionally designed to deceive law enforcement officers.
23:09
Speaker 1: The agent says Logan contacted his cousin and asked him
23:12
Speaker 1: to tell that story before the bodies were found. Based
23:15
Speaker 1: on investigator's experience, it is reasonable to believe that the
23:18
Speaker 1: creation of an alibi prior to the discovery of a
23:21
Speaker 1: crime indicates culpability or knowledge of the crime. That sounds
23:26
Speaker 1: really technical, But what I think they're saying, doctor Jerry
23:29
Speaker 1: Crossen joining me from Saint Leo University, is this guy
23:32
Speaker 1: Ron Logan asked his cousin to lie about an alibi
23:37
Speaker 1: the afternoon of the Double Martyrs before the bodies were found.
23:41
Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Yes, he probed. He either
23:44
Speaker 1: knows more than he's tell them. There's possibilities involved, you
23:49
Speaker 1: know when you look at that time window two with
23:51
Speaker 1: the posing, that took time, and if you know the environment,
23:57
Speaker 1: if you're safe and secure within that environment of the crime,
24:00
Speaker 1: you're going to take time to pose because you know, like, hey,
24:03
Speaker 1: I'm fourteen hundred feet away from my residence, fourteen hundred
24:08
Speaker 1: feet away from the two dead bodies. Nancy, Yeah, you
24:13
Speaker 1: know it's just gonna go to you. It seems to
24:15
Speaker 1: me if he had time to come up with an alibi,
24:17
Speaker 1: he had have time to move the bodies away from
24:19
Speaker 1: his house. Yeah, I would think so, And he would
24:21
Speaker 1: have points of view. He would understand the topography, the
24:24
Speaker 1: lay of the land. If you will, you know, where
24:27
Speaker 1: can you see? You know, if you're up on that
24:28
Speaker 1: bridge and just ask Max she was there, You can
24:31
Speaker 1: look down, you can surveil the whole area. You know,
24:34
Speaker 1: we're a point where you can hide. But one thing
24:37
Speaker 1: I would like to include here, since we're talking that
24:40
Speaker 1: this guy has died, now, this Logan fellow, I hope,
24:44
Speaker 1: I truly hope that at some point in time they
24:49
Speaker 1: took a DNA sample from this guy. Now I know
24:52
Speaker 1: that we've talked about dog hairs and all that sort
24:54
Speaker 1: of thing. Well, yeah, I know for a fact that
24:56
Speaker 1: they did. As a matter of fact, take a listen,
24:59
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, it may ease your mind to our cut
25:03
Speaker 1: nineteen our friends at Fox fifty nine. The search warrant
25:06
Speaker 1: authorized investigators to seize any guns or knives Logan had
25:10
Speaker 1: in his house, take a sample of his blood or
25:13
Speaker 1: bodily fluids, and his cell phone. This is my backyard.
25:16
Speaker 1: My backyard just had to be bigger than most people.
25:19
Speaker 1: How many people have a murder committed at their home
25:21
Speaker 1: in their backyard. The FBI agent who requested this search
25:25
Speaker 1: warrant wrote, quote, I believe there is probable cause to
25:29
Speaker 1: believe that Ronald Logan has committed the crime of murder.
25:32
Speaker 1: The document shows Logan created a false alibi for the
25:35
Speaker 1: time the murders were committed, but he was never charged
25:38
Speaker 1: in the case. Logan was sentenced to four years in
25:41
Speaker 1: prison for violating probation in a drunk driving case, and
25:44
Speaker 1: that may be why he lied to investigators. We don't
25:48
Speaker 1: know if the search warrant turned up any evidence specifically
25:51
Speaker 1: related to the Delphi case. Now, there's a really interesting point.
25:56
Speaker 1: Sometimes people lie for a reason you don't understand. Like
26:01
Speaker 1: they were high on pot, they were having an affair,
26:03
Speaker 1: that's sarah alibi. They don't want to get their lover
26:05
Speaker 1: in trouble. There's a lot of reasons why people may
26:09
Speaker 1: come up with a lie. That doesn't mean they're the killer.
26:13
Speaker 1: I got my sights on another guy, Keegan Klein. Take
26:18
Speaker 1: listen to our twenty WHR. The transcript from the police
26:22
Speaker 1: interview was first obtained by a podcast called The Murder
26:26
Speaker 1: Sheet from a public court record that's now sealed. Klein
26:30
Speaker 1: gave the interview in August of twenty twenty, after his
26:32
Speaker 1: arrest on child pornography and exploitation charges. The interview confirms
26:37
Speaker 1: the fake social media profile Anthony Shots, communicated with Libby
26:42
Speaker 1: German just before her disappearance, and in the police interview,
26:46
Speaker 1: Klin tells investigators, I literally have no clue how that
26:50
Speaker 1: girl died. I don't know anything anything to do with it. Yeah,
26:53
Speaker 1: that is a weird coincidence that I happened to talk
26:56
Speaker 1: to her, Like, I get that after the bodies of
26:59
Speaker 1: Libby and We're found on February fourteenth, twenty seventeen. Investigators
27:04
Speaker 1: say the Anthony Shots profile told someone that he was
27:06
Speaker 1: supposed to meet up with Libby, but she didn't show up.
27:10
Speaker 1: Why the heck are you meeting up with a thirteen
27:12
Speaker 1: or fourteen year old little girl? Anya Kane joining me,
27:16
Speaker 1: a senior reporter, business insider, a co creator Murder Sheet,
27:20
Speaker 1: What do you make of Keegan Klein? We already know
27:25
Speaker 1: he had created this big fake social media post to
27:29
Speaker 1: make him look like kind of like a young justin
27:33
Speaker 1: bieber kind of ish, which he looks nothing like in
27:38
Speaker 1: real life. And what is he doing trolling for thirteen
27:41
Speaker 1: and fourteen year old little girls? That's a great question.
27:44
Speaker 1: I mean, what police are saying, what they're accusing him
27:47
Speaker 1: of is basically pretending to be this hot, rich guy
27:51
Speaker 1: who has a lot of money in cool cars in
27:54
Speaker 1: order to form romantic attachments with underage girls online and
28:00
Speaker 1: basically tricked them into sending him inappropriate nude pictures of themselves.
28:06
Speaker 1: Like it's a really disgusting, heinous operation that he's been
28:09
Speaker 1: linked to with this Anthony Shots profile. And so what's
28:14
Speaker 1: really interesting about him, as per the Delfi case is
28:17
Speaker 1: we know that Anthony Shots, the profile was in communication
28:21
Speaker 1: with Liberty German right before her murder. When you say
28:25
Speaker 1: right before, what do you mean by right before, the
28:27
Speaker 1: day before, the week before, the hour before, As far
28:29
Speaker 1: as we know from the police interviewed the evening before
28:32
Speaker 1: at the very least, they were in communication. And what's
28:35
Speaker 1: he trying to meet her? What we know from the
28:39
Speaker 1: police in that interview is they say Libby was apparently
28:43
Speaker 1: enthralled by this profile and that she wanted to meet
28:46
Speaker 1: up with him. She was being potentially catfished by this person,
28:50
Speaker 1: who of course looked nothing and was nothing like what
28:53
Speaker 1: he portrayed online. I'm very curious, Cheryl McCollum. You've got
28:59
Speaker 1: Ron who made up an alibi for the time of
29:03
Speaker 1: the murderers before the bodies are found. Now you've got
29:07
Speaker 1: Kigan Klein, a real pos technical legal term. How do
29:13
Speaker 1: you compare the t Schiryl? Well, I mean, you got
29:16
Speaker 1: to look at Logan right out the gate. They were
29:18
Speaker 1: found on his property, and then you find out he
29:21
Speaker 1: kind of looks like the picture on the bridge, and
29:24
Speaker 1: then law enforcement can't rule his voice out. And then
29:27
Speaker 1: you've got the fact that he not only lies about
29:29
Speaker 1: an alibi, he puts it out there before the bodies
29:32
Speaker 1: are even found. And this is the most crucial to me.
29:37
Speaker 1: His cell phone pained outside on the thirteenth going toward
29:42
Speaker 1: the bridge. You cannot ignore that. You cannot ignore it exactly. Well,
29:47
Speaker 1: then you've got you know, Keegan Klin, who's looking at
29:51
Speaker 1: thirty charges of child porn, who actually had communication with
29:55
Speaker 1: one of the victims. There ain't no way in hell
29:57
Speaker 1: to ignore him. I'd be all about him until he
30:00
Speaker 1: could clear that up for me, which I don't think
30:02
Speaker 1: he can do, because remember when police showed up, he said,
30:05
Speaker 1: and I quote and I agree with him. I think
30:08
Speaker 1: he is and I think he should go away for
30:11
Speaker 1: the rest of the time, because you're talking about somebody that,
30:14
Speaker 1: in broad daylight, with people all around, on a rickety
30:19
Speaker 1: extremely high bridge, that in a public part, takes on
30:24
Speaker 1: two victims. This is a person that exsumed a ton
30:28
Speaker 1: of risk. Of course, they're gonna have blood on them,
30:31
Speaker 1: not only that, they have an article of clothing from
30:33
Speaker 1: that victim that I can only assume based on my
30:37
Speaker 1: training and experience, underwear, underwear of course all day. But
30:42
Speaker 1: that's what you're talking about, is you're talking about one
30:44
Speaker 1: person that could simply just walk right by their house,
30:47
Speaker 1: put their clothes in the washing machine and get the
30:48
Speaker 1: shine or getting blood off of them. You're talking about
30:50
Speaker 1: another person that could walk from the crime scene to
30:52
Speaker 1: that cemetery, getting his own car drive away. Nobody's looking
30:56
Speaker 1: for the one of them. Time stories with Nancy Grace
31:16
Speaker 1: to you, Kevin Greenley, Keegan Kleine versus Ron Logan, what
31:24
Speaker 1: do you think, Well, that's a tough question because Kagan
31:27
Speaker 1: clined we know was as we've said, he was communicating
31:30
Speaker 1: with Abby, and pardon me, he was communicating with Libby,
31:35
Speaker 1: and we know he had an unnatural interest in young
31:39
Speaker 1: girls of that age, so we know he has that interest.
31:43
Speaker 1: From the other hand, Ron Logan is there, and Ron
31:46
Speaker 1: Logan is lying about his alibi on the day up,
31:49
Speaker 1: and Ron Logan certainly looks more about there like the
31:52
Speaker 1: picture of Bridge Guy than Kagan klined us. Absolutely, guys,
31:56
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut twenty two. Our friends
31:58
Speaker 1: at WT eight are. It was shocking to me. That's
32:02
Speaker 1: how Mike Patty described learning that someone using the social
32:05
Speaker 1: media profile Anthony underscore Shots had been talking online with
32:09
Speaker 1: his granddaughter Libby before her death, and that whoever was
32:12
Speaker 1: using that profile the day Libby and Abby Williams were
32:15
Speaker 1: murdered had plans to meet Libby on a trail near
32:18
Speaker 1: Delphi that same day and ended up being one of
32:20
Speaker 1: the last people to talk with the team before she
32:23
Speaker 1: and Abbey were killed. As I've been let along by
32:25
Speaker 1: the police this entire time that there wasn't any information there.
32:29
Speaker 1: Obviously that was a piece of information they were holding
32:31
Speaker 1: tight to their best, but those details came out last
32:33
Speaker 1: month when a pair of local podcasters found a transcript
32:36
Speaker 1: online of an interview police did with this man, Kegan
32:40
Speaker 1: Kline in August twenty twenty, shortly after they arrested him
32:43
Speaker 1: on child exploitation charges. That one hundred and ninety four
32:46
Speaker 1: page document has since been sealed, but in it investigator's
32:50
Speaker 1: question Cline about the social media profile they say he
32:52
Speaker 1: admitted to creating six months before Libby and Abbey were
32:56
Speaker 1: murdered to meet and get nude photos from underage girls,
33:00
Speaker 1: meet and get nude photos with underage girls. Did he
33:05
Speaker 1: mate Abby and Libby the day they were murdered? And
33:10
Speaker 1: what about this document we're just learning about. They had
33:14
Speaker 1: been for mercy podcast, would have stayed buried forever. Take
33:18
Speaker 1: us our cut thirteen our friends at WISH. This nine
33:22
Speaker 1: page request for a search warrant filed March seventeenth of
33:26
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than a month
33:28
Speaker 1: after Libby German and Abby Williams were found murdered in Delphie.
33:33
Speaker 1: This disturbing document, for the first time gives us an
33:36
Speaker 1: investigator's description of the crime scene and what the suspect
33:40
Speaker 1: may have taken with him. It made obtained the request
33:44
Speaker 1: for the search warrant from the Murder Sheet podcast. The
33:47
Speaker 1: same group that first published the interview transcript of Anthony
33:50
Speaker 1: Schott's suspect Kagan Klein im Mate has confirmed the document
33:55
Speaker 1: is authentic. The document, written by an FBI agent, describes
33:59
Speaker 1: what instigators found when they discovered the bodies of Abby
34:02
Speaker 1: Williams and Libby German on February fourteenth. The agent writes
34:07
Speaker 1: a large amount of blood was lost by the victims
34:09
Speaker 1: at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the
34:12
Speaker 1: victim's wounds, it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the
34:16
Speaker 1: crime would have gotten blood on his person or clothing.
34:20
Speaker 1: To Anna kay joining Us, co creator of Murder Sheet podcast,
34:24
Speaker 1: what do you find to be the most probitive evidence
34:30
Speaker 1: that you have uncovered in this FBI document and what
34:35
Speaker 1: do you believe it means? The great question. I would say,
34:40
Speaker 1: what I find to be the most compelling Here is
34:45
Speaker 1: all the details about the crime scene. So I'm talking
34:48
Speaker 1: about the blood, I'm talking about the brutality of the attack,
34:52
Speaker 1: and I'm talking about the fact that the killer would
34:55
Speaker 1: have left covered in blood and left behind possible fibers,
34:58
Speaker 1: hairs and whatnot that I think gives us a sense
35:03
Speaker 1: of how this crime took place, and what these girls
35:07
Speaker 1: went through, and the sort of horror that gets the
35:09
Speaker 1: heart of this whole thing. You know, I think it's
35:12
Speaker 1: easy to forget sometimes for people when they're just kind
35:15
Speaker 1: of like trying to solve the puzzle and what happens,
35:18
Speaker 1: but like to realize how horrifics this attack really was,
35:22
Speaker 1: and how brutal the killer had to be to do
35:25
Speaker 1: this to a thirteen year old and a fourteen year
35:27
Speaker 1: old and how cowardly just gives us a sense of
35:30
Speaker 1: what kind of person would do this and just how
35:33
Speaker 1: twisted the mind of this person had to be too.
35:37
Speaker 1: Psychologist doctor Jerry Crows and joining us right now, what
35:42
Speaker 1: kind of a person are we looking for? What kind
35:45
Speaker 1: of a person would kidnap two little girls most likely
35:51
Speaker 1: right or sodomize them and then brutally murder them, either
35:58
Speaker 1: with blunt force such as a rock or a softball
36:01
Speaker 1: bat or an edged instrument such as a knife, which
36:06
Speaker 1: means he came to the scene with the weapon, and
36:11
Speaker 1: then take their underwear. What kind of mind is that.
36:15
Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that come to my mind
36:17
Speaker 1: right off, And first off, I want to know if
36:20
Speaker 1: there was any seeming fluid left as any kind of
36:24
Speaker 1: evidence that would show like some sort of a completion
36:29
Speaker 1: of a sexual act. The perpetrator may not have been
36:32
Speaker 1: able to perform any kind of a sexual act, and
36:34
Speaker 1: then that would come out in the level of violence
36:38
Speaker 1: that could manifest, and that to me, would account for
36:41
Speaker 1: the bleeding out. I don't know what you're saying, cross
36:44
Speaker 1: and taught regular talk Please. What are you saying that
36:48
Speaker 1: his form of sexual release is to torture and murder
36:53
Speaker 1: as opposed to obtaining an erection and ejaculating. Yeah, the
36:57
Speaker 1: violence in the rage. I would also think that this
37:00
Speaker 1: perpetrator had a here he said, couldn't perform. What are
37:04
Speaker 1: you saying, Yeah, talk English to me, man, Okay, he's
37:08
Speaker 1: not able to sexually perform. That rage is released through
37:12
Speaker 1: the violence of either cutting or beating him. I mean,
37:16
Speaker 1: this is a thirteen year old little girl that from
37:20
Speaker 1: I believe what you were saying earlier, Kevin Greenley joining
37:23
Speaker 1: me from Murder Seet podcast. I think they froze my
37:27
Speaker 1: little girl. And I've told this story before. It as
37:29
Speaker 1: an example. Lucy and John Dave and I were walking
37:32
Speaker 1: our dog. He's this big. We got him at the pound.
37:35
Speaker 1: He was supposed to be a docks and I don't
37:38
Speaker 1: know what he is. He's a mutt and he tries
37:40
Speaker 1: to start a fight with every dog we see. He
37:43
Speaker 1: actually started to fight with two rot Willers. They're huge,
37:48
Speaker 1: big things with like teeth, their teeth. Well, I of
37:54
Speaker 1: course had him on a leash, and Lucy, my little girl,
37:58
Speaker 1: was walking, and well he got awa from her. He
38:00
Speaker 1: jerked loose, and he ran and got between the two
38:04
Speaker 1: Rotwallers and was biting it then barking at them. Well,
38:09
Speaker 1: I ran over. My son ran over. I pushed him back.
38:13
Speaker 1: I don't know why I did this, but I got
38:14
Speaker 1: in there and got the dog out between two rotwallers.
38:17
Speaker 1: I turned around at Lucy. She was still standing there
38:20
Speaker 1: holding the leash like shock on her face. She's frozen.
38:27
Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about. I think they froze. Kevin Greenley,
38:31
Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely what happened. These are two little
38:34
Speaker 1: girls living in a small town in the heartland of America.
38:39
Speaker 1: They're not used to this sort of horror, and thank
38:43
Speaker 1: God for that, because this is not a part of
38:45
Speaker 1: their life. And so when they confronted this, I think
38:48
Speaker 1: they were just terrified and didn't know what to do,
38:53
Speaker 1: and that just made it, unfortunately even easier for this
38:56
Speaker 1: monster to do what he did to them. Nancy Cannet, Well,
39:00
Speaker 1: that's freezing submit syndrome. It's like the fight and flight,
39:03
Speaker 1: but when you're too young or not knowledgeable enough to
39:06
Speaker 1: take fight or flight, you freeze and submit. What Carol
39:10
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, if you listen to the
39:13
Speaker 1: killer's voice, he is calm. There's no rage, there's no adrenaline.
39:19
Speaker 1: He just simply says, hey, guys down the hill. He
39:23
Speaker 1: is so autopilot and what he is going to do.
39:28
Speaker 1: There is no monster voice, there is no devil sound.
39:31
Speaker 1: He's just a calm person. He I believe controlled them
39:37
Speaker 1: from the jump. I believe he had a weapon that
39:41
Speaker 1: he exposed to them and immediately had them under control.
39:45
Speaker 1: That's why they didn't run in opposite directions. That's why
39:47
Speaker 1: when he's talking you don't hear any sounds or words
39:51
Speaker 1: or anything from them. He is in complete control, no
39:55
Speaker 1: question about it. Yeah, Nancy, I gotta tell you, I
39:58
Speaker 1: think this guy should have prepared the idea that he
40:01
Speaker 1: would he would pull up at the scene and seek
40:05
Speaker 1: out a weapon of convenience, like something to bludging them
40:08
Speaker 1: with this guy showed up. Prepare you're right. I think
40:11
Speaker 1: I think that there may even be restraint involving this.
40:16
Speaker 1: I don't know what form it's going to take, but
40:19
Speaker 1: rope or some kind of binding, I think, and and
40:22
Speaker 1: torture is part of this as well. I think that
40:25
Speaker 1: you know, again out of my baileyweek, but I think
40:27
Speaker 1: that that's part of what you know. Kind of right
40:30
Speaker 1: blows his hair back here. Guys, if you have any information,
40:34
Speaker 1: or think you have information, even if you believe you're
40:38
Speaker 1: not sure, please dial seven six five eight two two
40:44
Speaker 1: three five three five repeat seven six five eight two
40:50
Speaker 1: two three five three five. Thank you to everyone on
40:54
Speaker 1: our panel today, especially our new friends from Murder Sheet Podcast,
41:00
Speaker 1: Pizzy Grace Crimes Story signing off, goodbye friend