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Marsha Clark · Calm Under Fire

• Col. John Boggs: Welcome back to Calm Under Fire. I'm Colonel John Boggs, the president of Fortitude Consulting. And Fortitude Consulting is an executive leadership development and coaching firm. And today I am joined by Marcia Clark, also an executive coach extraordinaire, I might say, author and leadership expert who has spent decades Marsha Clark: . Col. John Boggs: helping leaders grow, perform, and lead with greater authenticity and impact. Through her work, she supported thousands of leaders across industries and around the world with a particular focus on helping individuals understand themselves so they can lead others more effectively. Marsha, it is great to have you here today. Marsha Clark: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation and I look forward to our conversation. Col. John Boggs: Thank you, Marcia. Well, can we get started? Marsha Clark: Let's do it. Col. John Boggs: Marcia, you've worked with thousands of leaders. What is it that makes high performing leaders struggle with themselves? Marsha Clark: Yeah, so, you know, one of the things that I talk about a lot is that we have to start with self-awareness. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: you know, when we struggle with ourselves, I think my experience is that oftentimes it's because we don't have greater self-awareness. And I wanna expand on that just a little bit because I think there's two sides to self-awareness. The first side is, I understand? my habits, my patterns, my strengths, my defaults, my personality, so to speak. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And when I talk to leaders about that, they feel pretty confident about their abilities in those areas. But the other side of self-awareness is, are others seeing me and am I aware of how others are seeing me? And is it congruent with the way that I wanna be seen? So. There's often a disconnect in the way that I see myself in the world and the way others are seeing me. And so much of the work that I do is trying to bring some congruence or alignment to how you see yourself, how you want to be seen, and how others actually see you. Col. John Boggs: Okay, I'll be what makes that important? Marsha Clark: Well, I can be plodding along and I can be thinking I'm all that and then some, right? And doing it all in the right way. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And I can be on the wrong path or I can be on the wrong track or I can get to the end of something and say, why didn't it work out the way that I thought it would? Or why didn't I get recognition for this? Or why didn't it happen in the way that our customer, I wanted it to for our customers? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And so I think it doesn't yield the best results if I don't understand my ability to work with others. And quite honestly, none of us work as an island. We have to be able to relate to other people. And therefore that human connection and that human condition in each of us Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: is that we need to make sure that we're seeing each other in true ways and not artificial ways. Col. John Boggs: Okay, okay. Tell me what's the difference between a leader who is technically strong Marsha Clark: Mm-hmm. Col. John Boggs: and then, but they're not really the most effective, not truly effective. Marsha Clark: Well, John, I will tell you this. I think that's one of the biggest fallacies around is that if I'm a good technical leader that I'm the guy Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: who ought to or the girl that ought to be leading the charge. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: It's two different skill sets. And just because I'm a good engineer doesn't mean I'm gonna be a good engineering leader or a good accountant being a good accounting leader. Leadership is a profession. I just want you to hear that loud and clear from me. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And I believe that if you have leadership. which is the ability to get things done, to achieve results and to build strong relationships in service to something larger than yourself. That's my general definition of leadership. Col. John Boggs: Ooh, that's a great definition. Marsha Clark: Well, thank you. And when I look at that, if I'm a leader, I'm also a learner, which is another requirement, again, one of those two sided coins. I'm gonna be able to go into any new area and even if I'm not an expert in that area, I'm gonna learn what it is, what's my mandate, what are we trying to accomplish? I'm gonna talk to the people that are influenced and impacted by that. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I'm gonna look at processes, I'm gonna look at performance, I'm gonna look at skills and abilities Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: and I'm gonna figure out a way to set the target, the vision, the strategy, the priorities, and then I'm gonna have appropriate checks and balances. That's leadership. That's not accounting, that's not marketing, that's not lawyering, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: that's not doctoring, that's leading. And I will tell you, John, I've led many a group. that I could not do the work that the people that work for me are. And that's why I say it's a fallacy because many people think if you can't come down here and do my work, how can you possibly lead me? And leadering is a very different set of skills and a different set of responsibilities. So I think the difference between being a good technical leader is having deep knowledge about the function or the technical skills itself. And I think leading is all about the people. Col. John Boggs: Wow, that is, I'm taking that note down, all about the people. That is Marsha Clark: Yes, Col. John Boggs: so true. Wow. Thank you for that. Wow, this is amazing. All about the people. You've written a lot about power and choice. So how much of leadership really comes down to choices we make every day? Marsha Clark: Yeah, well, I think our lives are the product of the choices we make every day. So our work is a part of our life. So I'll start with that big, you know, sort of macro Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: view of all of this. But here's what I would tell you is that I think there are three kinds of power. So when you talk about the relationship between power and choice Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: and the three kinds of power that I talk about and teach about and write about is positional power, relational power and personal power. So positional power is I get hired into a certain job description or a job title, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: a box on an org chart if you will, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: and that's positional power. It's where I fit in the hierarchy of an organization Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: and an organization can be a business, a church, the military, hospital, government, you name it. Everything's in that hierarchical. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And the key thing about positional power is that it's given to you by someone else. Someone had to hire you into that position, promote you into that position, transfer you into that position, elect you into that position. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And therefore, they can also take that away from you. Right? Col. John Boggs: Yep. Marsha Clark: So that's positional power and we have to own that part of ourselves as well. So I'll Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: leave that at that for now. Relational power is when you and I choose to work together to build the relationship where you and Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I can go arm in arm and do something together, right? So Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: we're gonna compliment each other skills, strengths, talents, abilities. We're going to... Make sure that you're getting what you want out of this and I'm getting what I want out of this. So it's a real partnering, building the strong relationship, mutual trust, respect, all of those kinds of things. So that's another kind of power. And I choose to engage with you and you choose to engage with me to make that Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: happen. And together we can do something that neither of us could do all alone. So that's the power of choosing to be in partnership and relationship to get something achieved. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And then personal power. I call this the inside out power. know, positional power's outside in, right? Somebody gives it to me, this is me. This is me making choices every single day. And the phrase that I, again, teach about, write about, talk about is that our personal power lies in our personal choices. But there's a whole lot of prerequisite to that, John. The prerequisites Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: are, who am I? Right, now we're back to that self-awareness thing. Col. John Boggs: Yes. Marsha Clark: And then who do I aspire to be? What do I want my life to look like? We often use terminology like what is my personal brand? And I get that. So how do I want others to see me? Do I want them to see me as diligent? Do I want them to see me as curious? Do I want them to see me as creative? Do I want them to see me as warm, friendly? you know, competent, all those words, right? What are people saying about us when they're describing us to someone else, right? That's where I always start with a personal brand. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And so when I think about that, then as I'm, you know, required or gifted to be able to make choices and decisions every day, am I gonna speak up or am I not gonna speak up? Am I gonna be loud about it or am I gonna be quiet? Am I gonna be, you know, declarative or am I gonna be Inquisitive, right? You know, all Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: of those kinds of things. Those are choices we make. And so I want to have to know who I am. And I also want to live my life aligned with my values. And if I'm to work for an organization, I want to know that my personal values are aligned with the organizational values. Because I know I'm going to enjoy my work and my time there a whole lot more when Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I can count on and trust. that this is a values-driven organization and whose values align with mine. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And then I have the clarity to make those personal choices and therefore exert, if I can use that word, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: exert my power, my personal power in any given situation, any given decision, any given relationship. So, you know, any interaction or transaction that I'm trying to affect aligned with my personal choices, therefore generates my personal power. So is that, I mean, does that all make sense when I let out that way? Okay. Col. John Boggs: no, it all makes it makes wonderful sense and it it it makes wonderful sense and it leads me. It leads me to ask this, I'm going to try and tie a couple of things together here. When leaders, They're in an organization, and we just talked about values. They're values, the company has values, and hopefully they mesh. But when a leader, and you may have run across this, when a leader is in an organization, their values don't exactly line up, but more importantly, I guess, the leader is giving their power away. Marsha Clark: Yeah, yeah. Col. John Boggs: Have you seen that? Run across that. Marsha Clark: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I talk about it rather routinely as a matter of fact. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: you know, there's a lot of different ways that that can happen. And, you know, part of it is I describe it as letting someone else define me. And here's how that shows up. They tell me I should do this or I should talk this way or I should dress this way or I should act this way or I should sit in this chair or I should, I should, I should, I should. And John, I wanna tell you and all your listeners, this is something to remember always, personal life, professional life. The word should is could with shame on it. And this is one of Col. John Boggs: my. Marsha Clark: my favorite principles and I share it often. and people relate to it because, know, I describe it as if someone's telling me what I should or shouldn't do or be or say or, you know, on and on, who are they to tell me? And I know for myself, I describe it as I become my five-year-old self and I put my hands on my hips and I say, you're not the boss of me. You know, that's what I, that's a trigger word for me, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And it's a trigger word for many of us. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And yet we throw that word around all the time. And it says, if I need to be apologetic or embarrassed or shamed by, because Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: if you tell me that's what I should have done and I didn't, then that must mean something's wrong with me. Well, that's not the way you engage, right? That's not the kind of trusting, respectful relationship that you wanna have. So there's two sides to this. Well, there's multiple sides to this. So one, is don't should on yourself and don't should on others, right? Because we also should ourselves. I should have said this. When he did that, I should have done that. So I could have done this and I could have done that, which leads me to the next point, which is when someone says the word should to me, they don't know that it's a trigger word for me. So this is an opportunity for me to choose. to manage myself rather Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: than judging, criticizing them for shooting on me, where I might either get defensive or even shut down, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And that's not helpful from a leadership perspective. I need to stay engaged with this, right? Col. John Boggs: know. Marsha Clark: We're trying to achieve something here. So what I do in my own head is I translate the word should to could so that I can stay engaged. And so this idea of I'm not gonna give my power away by letting my trigger word that they say shut me down or put me on the defensive. So I'm gonna hold on to my power by staying engaged and helping to achieve whatever desired result we're trying to achieve. So that's example of giving power away or holding onto it. Another way is Here's my phrase for it. You're going to get this. I have phrases for almost everything. But don't let someone else's bad behavior deny your greatness. And what I mean by that is if somebody's yelling, screaming, know, toxic environment, bully behavior, you know, especially if it's a pattern of behavior in them. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I'm not gonna get sucked into that. I'm gonna let that stuff be their stuff. I'm not gonna take that on. I'm gonna stand in the moment, whatever that moment might represent. I'm gonna stand in that moment and I'm gonna live my values of dignity, respect, accountability, all of the things that any one of us can sit down and write about what our values are. How do I live those in that moment? And I have a strong sense of responsibility. And if I have committed to work with someone and achieve that outcome, whatever it may be, in quality ways, then I'm accountable for staying involved and engaged in this interaction and working with. And so I gotta figure out a way to make it all work. And if I, again, choose to withdraw, or maybe I say, you know, I just can't work with John. John, I just can't do it, you know? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: Well, that's me giving my power away. because I'm letting John define whether I'm going to get to do my good work. Or Col. John Boggs: Very good. Marsha Clark: if you're going to be a bully, I'm not going to get into a name calling contest with you, nor am I going to let you bully me. I remember saying to a boss one time that, and we had gone back and forth and what, I have to give you a little bit of backstory for it to make any sense, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: but we had gone back and forth where he asked me to do something. I, you know. I'm a great note taker, so I pride myself in the notes I take so that I can get it right. So I come back and I give him what I think he asked for. He told me didn't, but then when I explored that a bit, it was because he had learned new information but failed to tell me that, so that I could incorporate it into what he was looking for. And we went through about two three rounds of this, where he would be in meetings and get information, but then he wouldn't share it with me, and I'm off working, thinking it's X and it's X plus three, or X plus J, or whatever. And so finally after about the third time, I just said to him while he's kinda yelling at me, not kinda, he was yelling at me, and I said, wait a minute, let me just stop us in this moment. If you're trying to motivate me to do better, I'm not motivated by this. If you're trying to intimidate me, I'm not intimidated by this. You know me well enough to know that I am trying hard to give you what you're asking for. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And so, but this is not helping us get you what you're looking for. And I want to tell you that he was one of those kind of bully bosses, right? This was a pattern. And this was early in our relationship, my subordinate boss relationship with him. And from that moment on, everything changed. Because I didn't give away my power by one, letting him off the hook, because he had as much accountability in giving me the right information, the most accurate and complete information as I had Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: in delivering him what he was asking for. And that's both sides of the power and accountability game as well, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I have the accountability to give you direction, to share priorities, to, you know, all of that. And if that information changes, I also am accountable to come tell you about that. And you're then accountable to deliver to me what you committed to deliver or what assignment I've given you or what task I've assigned you. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And so that's both sides of the power game as well. And so where personal power lies in all of that is that we both have to stand in it, speak our truths and live our values. So those are the things that come to mind for me. You know, there's lots of other ways. I give my power away by not setting boundaries. I give my power away by accommodating everyone else while I kill myself and burn myself out and work, you know, 20 hours a day for seven days in a row. mean, All of those are ways in which we give away our power. But those, the ones I mentioned are the ones that I think I see frequently. Col. John Boggs: Wow, wow, that is awesome. How is someone, I mean, you just, you really articulated conflict. This is just amazing. So. How is one to deal with conflict like that? How do they, they're being challenged in such a fashion and how do, where do they get courageous? How do they stand in their truth and stay grounded? It sounds like that would be very tough for a leader to face that kind of bullying. Marsha Clark: Yeah, so there's bullying, there's hard conversations, there's feedback, and there's conflict. mean, you know, it could be happening in any one of those, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: When conflict occurs the most is when it's time to make a decision. And a decision is just another word for a choice, right? We're gonna do it, we're not gonna do it, we're gonna pay for it, this much Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. That's right. Marsha Clark: for it or we're not, you know, all these kinds of things. So what I will tell you, John, and I'm gonna take us off on a little bit of a different framework, but... What I teach around conflict is that there are five potential responses. I can avoid it, I can accommodate it, I can compromise, I can compete, which means I'm gonna get my way, I'm gonna fight to the finish, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: and I can collaborate. So think about those in terms of five different approaches or philosophies or strategies for addressing a conflict situation. And what I want you to hear is that it depends on the situation, which one I'm gonna choose. So it's not when I'm a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? So I'm not gonna always accommodate them. I'm always gonna compete or collaborate. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: But we have default patterns. And so being conscious and mindful of all of that. And so let me tell you the questions that I think are the strategic questions. When you know or expect that you're gonna go into a conflict, interaction. So it can be a conversation, can be a meeting, can be a telephone call, whatever. And I know that I'll just call it my position is A and your position is B. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: So what I have to ask myself as I get ready for that interaction, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: is this a preference or is it a problem? Right? So I just like the color blue, John, and I know you love red. So, I mean, am I going to fight to the finish with you on that? Or does it really matter? Is it a problem? And if it's the problem, what is the problem it's going to create? And if I can't articulate that, then why am I arguing with you or in conflict with you to begin with? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: Because if it's just a preference, that's ego driven. It's not solution driven. Does that make sense when I say it that way? Col. John Boggs: Yes it does, ego driven, wow. Marsha Clark: Yeah. Now, so that's the first question I have to ask myself. The second question I have to ask myself, what's more important, the relationship or the result? So when I ask that question, if the relationship is more important than whatever we decide as an outcome, my point A, your point B, then I'm likely just gonna accommodate you. because it's more important for me to build that rapport, that connection. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: You know, maybe we're new in our relationship and I'm trying to get us off on the right foot. I'm gonna choose to accommodate. Now accommodating, I wanna point out, is we're gonna do it your way and we're not gonna talk about it again. I'm not, what I often teach is that accommodating is not, okay, we'll do it your way this time and we'll do it my way next time. That's scorekeeping, not accommodating. We're not gonna do it this your way. And then when it doesn't work, I'm gonna say, I told you so. I told you my way was better. Well, that's not good because that's just sort of self-righteousness, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And it's also not saying, okay, we'll do it your way. And I'm gonna sabotage you, whether I do that consciously or unconsciously, because I didn't agree with you to begin with, Col. John Boggs: Mmm. Marsha Clark: or I get passive aggressive and I talk about it, know, all those kinds of things. So accommodating is we're gonna do it your way because the relationship is important to me. Now, if the result is most important, and I can identify the problems that if we do it your way, I think those are so great that they're not worth the risk of going down that path. And here's why I think mine's a better. Well, then I'm gonna compete. So I'm gonna stand firm. I'm gonna come armed with data. I'm gonna be willing to stand in the heat, not again in service to my ego to win for the sake of winning. but because I truly believe it is in the best interest of whatever it is we're trying to accomplish, so it's in service to the larger good. So that's when I'm gonna compete. If both are important, then I'm gonna collaborate, right? So, and it's probably gonna be more than you. We're gonna get all the people in the room that have a point of view on this. And this one is particularly important when I'm learning something new or we're doing something that we, you know, as an organization or have never done. Integrating solutions, merging perspectives. I need to hear from everybody because you everybody's got a piece of the action. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And I also want to collaborate when I need the psychological buy-in and the engagement of the people that I'm inviting into this collaborative conversation because I need them to go make it work. So that's you know, the idea of what's more important, the relationship and the result. If both are kind of mid-importance, that's where I'm gonna compromise. Well, this is what's really Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: important to me and I wanna hold onto that, but I'm willing to give on this, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And avoiding is when I choose my battles, right? And there Col. John Boggs: Mm. Marsha Clark: are some people, John and I know you've worked with them and know them, who think you have to argue about everything, that avoiding is not an option. And you know, how many times with a delay, has the problem gone away or has the problem solved itself or I made it this big problem and guess what, it wasn't this big a problem. And so avoid is a legitimate approach to conflict as well. So that second strategic question I'm gonna ask myself, what's more important, the relationship or the result? The third question I'm gonna ask myself, is it a what or a how conflict? So do we agree on what we're trying to accomplish? Okay, if that then is our disagreement, my position A, your position B, is that I think we ought to do it this way and you think we ought to do it a different way. So think Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: about if I want to grow revenue in my company, I can grow revenue by increasing my prices. I can add new customers. I can add new products and services. I can buy another company and add their revenue to our revenue. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I can cross-sell products and services. I mean, there's an add-on business, all those kinds of things. All of those are how. And, know, rarely is there just one way to do anything. So again, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I've got to go back and ask myself, is it a preference or a problem? You're not doing it the way I would have done it, John. So does that make you wrong? Does that mean we have to argue about it or be conflicted about it? No? So that's my choice. And then I've got to decide, okay, what am I gonna do with all of this? And then I can go have the conversation. And what I will tell you, that's when I know I'm gonna have or anticipate a conflict conversation with someone or interaction. But I also wanna say to you and your listeners is that just because someone invites me into a conflict does not mean I have to accept the invitation. So here's what that means. Let's just say that you and I go into a meeting and Col. John Boggs: huh. Marsha Clark: it's one of our standard weekly staff meetings or whatever. And suddenly in the meeting, least suddenly to me, you come across at me and you say, Marcia, I need to talk to you about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, tough conversation and I would say something to you like, John that sounds like a really important point for you and Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I want to respect that and I did not come to this meeting prepared to talk about that so let's get together right after this meeting and tell me what your concerns are or what your issues are and then let me go back and you know talk with my team and then we can get together and figure out what we need to do about this. Because again, I'm entitled to giving away our power. If I get sucked into that and I'm not prepared, I may commit to something that I will regret forever. Or I go back to my team and I say, okay, John said blah, blah, blah, blah, and here's what I told him we'd do. And they're like, well, wait a minute, there's a whole nother side to this story, right? Col. John Boggs: He Marsha Clark: So what I'm doing by saying, let me hear your issues, let me go back and talk to my team. I'm temporarily avoiding the conflict. That's another appropriate use of avoiding because I'm buying time to get the facts so that when I come together, then maybe I accommodate you, maybe I compromise with you, maybe I say we need to get a group of people together and collaborate and hear Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: all the pieces and parts to this. But if I commit to something and then have to renege on that commitment because now I understand the problem better or I have all the facts, that's not good in relationship building either. So Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: those are the things we have to go through in order to enter into one of those courageous conversations. And if I'm really clear about I've answered these questions and what's most important and what kind of conflict is this. And then there's one last thing I will tell you and that is. you really need to understand who the conflict is with. And, you know, I'll tell you, was teaching a class and it was a group from Latin America. And I'm teaching this point about who is the conflict with. And almost in unison, the group said Europe. And I said to them, I said, okay, that's interesting because in order to resolve a conflict, you have to have a conversation. I think it would be really hard to talk to a continent, Col. John Boggs: Hahaha! Marsha Clark: especially when they speak several languages. And so this idea of the point being we have to have a conversation to resolve conflict. And I can't Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: talk to a department, I can't talk to a vendor, I can't talk to a continent, I can't talk to... know who is driving the position B if I'm position A so that we can resolve the issue. And then the other aspect of this is if I'm doing what my boss told me to do and you're doing what your boss told you to do, but we're the ones Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: having the conflict, is it really our conflict or is it our boss's conflict? And sometimes it is our job to do that and we have to, you know, I mean, this goes back to, gotta know, right? We gotta Col. John Boggs: I'll go ahead and Marsha Clark: know. But the other side is that what I have found in several instances is that the executives don't wanna have the hard conversation and they're using us as pawns in the game, right? A company brought me in and they had a revolving door at the, really it was the senior director, executive director levels. because the executives, they said, oh yeah, we're clear, we're aligned, we know where we're going, we're all on the same team, but they weren't, but they were using their people. And then the people either didn't do what their boss wanted them to do and were getting fired, or they saw what the game was and knew it was a no-win situation and they quit. That was a lot more of them, because they were a smart group. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And so you gotta know who... needs to have the real conversation. And if you and I are doing our bosses bidding, you and I can say, okay, do we need to get our bosses together? Do the four of us need to get in a room? Because we're going to have to go execute whatever we decide. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: But this is the way we got to do it. Because we're going to go back and forth. And that's what drags out conflicts and decisions and approvals. And then it becomes painful for everybody involved. Col. John Boggs: Yes, it does. Marsha Clark: Yeah. Col. John Boggs: my gosh. my gosh. Well, Marsha, I mean, gosh, I don't want to run out of time, but there's so much more I want to talk to you about. So, but I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to switch tracks real quick because that was phenomenal. And if everybody listening didn't pick up on this, she talked about having courageous conversations. I mean, that was it. mean, communicating. my God. I mean, that's top of the, that's, in most of this, this was communicating and how you communicate, that's awesome. But there's something else that you're really good at and that's working, you worked extensively with women leaders around the world. And so what are you seeing today? Where are the issues? Where are the opportunities? the persistent challenges that women face today. mean, we almost don't have to tell this to women, but for the men listening, holy cow, this could be an education. Marsha Clark: This could be a three day course. Col. John Boggs: So. Marsha Clark: Here's what I would offer to you. There are some fundamental things that I think are at the core. So I spoke a moment ago about positional power and the whole idea of the hierarchy. That's a very masculine model. Most organizations, dare I say all organizations, are based on a hierarchy. And it's a necessary structure to make big groups of people move in the right direction. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: So there's nothing wrong with hierarchy. Please don't misunderstand me. But that hierarchy is almost in contrast to... We as women live in what is referred to by Dr. Patricia Heim as a flat structure. So in a hierarchy, one person has positional power over another. So it's a one up, one down situation. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: That lends itself to more of a directive or dare I say command and control style of leadership. Okay, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: which in my generation, baby boomer generation, many of the leaders came out of the military where that was what they knew and what they learned. And you can appreciate this of all people. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: So we as women didn't grow up and it is not our natural affinity. You know, this flat structure is again, rather than power over is power dead even. So we take the approach of we're all in this together. So think about the symbols of women in circles, right? There's sewing circles, there's book clubs, there's women at the well in the Bible. I mean, it's a circular all in this together approach. So we are more collaborative. So this idea of we need to hear from everybody, but we can Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: overuse that just like, you know, Men can overuse command and control. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And what I, I often have people that are sending women to the, or women from their companies into my program, they'll say, Marcia, she's too hard, you gotta soften her up, or Marcia, she's too soft, you gotta harden her up. And I say to them, I'm not gonna do either one of those. There's a time to be hard and there's a time to be soft and all those places in between. So what I do with my clients and with women is, there is a time to be hard and stand up for yourself. And how do you do that and still get work done and still maintain strong relationships? And there's a time to speak, there's a time to listen. We can go down a thousand continuums in that way. So this is the basic principle that I have is the best leaders know that the answer to every question is it depends. And it depends. It sounds like I'm, you know, skirting Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: the issue, but I have to ask all these questions. And it kind of goes back to the ones I was asking about in the conflict situation. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: So how do I, in this moment, you know, being a woman and how do I stand up for myself or how do I defend my actions and so on? Again, it goes back to the clarity of how Am I gonna live my values in this or am I gonna Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: compromise or violate something and feel really bad about myself Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: afterwards and I can't look myself in the mirror when I get up tomorrow morning? All those kinds of things. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: But this idea of understanding hierarchy and flat structure is a huge thing. So that's one thing. The second thing I wanna say, and I'll tell you this story too, this kinda gets to that what versus how. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: So I was working with a woman whose company, she was gonna be promoted from a vice president to a senior vice president. And they wanted me to do some coaching with her to get her to that level. And so I often do a 360 interview process. And so they gave me their leadership competencies and I developed some questions, we agreed on those that I would ask. So one of their competencies was setting the agenda. So I'm asking her boss, her male boss, how would you describe this person's ability to set the agenda? And he goes, Marcia, this is a real struggle for her. Every time I ask her what she thinks we ought to do on these major kinds of projects, she's got to go out and talk to everybody before she can give me the answer. So do you see that? He wants an answer from her right away. I'm in this position, I get to declare this and away we go. Versus, we're all in this together, I need the psychological buy-in and the engagement of whatever we are gonna do and I'm gonna go get those Col. John Boggs: I don't Marsha Clark: people involved and they're gonna come help me figure out what the agenda needs to be. So what I pointed out to that boss was, so she does set the agenda. What you're asking her to do, she does. Right? How she goes about setting that agenda is different than the way you would do it. And Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: that is a, I'm just going to tell you, that's a typical, you know, her versus him kind of. Now Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: there's a second part to the story, which is the next competency was bringing people Col. John Boggs: which is the next competency was to bring people Marsha Clark: along. Now isn't that fascinating, right? And I Col. John Boggs: Yeah. my. Marsha Clark: said, so how does she do on that? He goes, Marcia, she's the best on that. She can mobilize the troops, right? She can make it happen. She can get everybody marching. And I said, might you see the connection between engaging them and setting the agenda Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: is the first step in bringing them along. So again, If you're trying to set the agenda when we're doing something new, we need to integrate solutions, we need to merge perspectives, and we need the psychological buy-in of the people to make it work, then she's spot on, right? So those are the kinds of things that show up again and again and again, and those are two of probably 50 I could give you. So there's a whole lot more in all that. Col. John Boggs: I'm certain of that. I am certain of that. And this is just an aside and people probably fall out when I say this, but after spending well over 30 years in the Marine Corps, I can tell you without doubt, the best leaders I've ever worked with or for were women. I'm an infantry guy and I can stop and say, yeah, no. the best thing, no, General Wilson, she was amazing and no, they were women. And for the very reasons you just talked about. Marsha Clark: Yeah. Col. John Boggs: No, you're not left out, you're part of the program all the time. Yeah. Marsha Clark: That's right. We need you. We need you. Because again, I'm going go back to the very beginning. Leadership is about the people, right? Col. John Boggs: Yeah? Marsha Clark: So as a human being, I want to be seen, heard, and valued. I don't care who you are. I don't care who you are. If I'm a breathing human being, I want to be seen, heard, and valued. How does that happen? I invite you into the conversation. I ask you what you think. You know, and whatever you may answer, I don't ridicule it or should on you or bully you or shut you down. And, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: you know, there's another, I'll call it competency, and there's a body of research around this. And so if your listeners are interested and it's intellectual curiosity, excuse me, intellectual humility, intellectual humility. And what I want to say is that There's a lot of circles, cultures, people, beliefs that I need to have all the answers if I'm in a leadership role. And that's another one of those myths Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: because none of us do. And it's naivety if we think we do. And so it's okay to admit mistakes. It's okay to say, don't know. It's okay to ask for help. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: So women, sort of the opposite of intellectual humility is the imposter phenomenon. And that's Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: been written about a lot for women. So any of your listeners who are women will probably go, yeah, I know about that. And that's the belief that I hold that says I don't have all the answers and I'm so afraid they're gonna find me out. Versus intellectual humility, which is I know a lot. and I don't know it all. And if I can reframe my imposter phenomenon, beliefs, assumptions, framing of myself to I have intellectual humility. I know a lot and I don't know it all. And what, your point about the best leaders you've worked for are women is that women score. considerably higher than men do on intellectual humility. And it is a belief in the research, not a belief, it is a hypothesis or a finding in the research Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: that because women do score higher on intellectual humility, they do make better leaders. Like about three to one. Yeah. Col. John Boggs: Yep, there we go. There we go. I believe that wholeheartedly. Marsha, if a senior leader listening today wants to become more effective immediately, what's one place they should be starting at? Marsha Clark: clarity of values, you know, what are the values by which I want to live my life and how do I want those to show up in my leadership? And then the second is to get feedback on their, are they showing up that way or are they not? And, you know, holding themselves accountable. Yeah, and it's not just again on the values thing because people can get you know a little jaded about that because we've all you know companies give out the laminated card that you carry in your wallet and they have posters on the wall about what our values are. But our values are lived in every choice that we make or not. And if what I know is that if I make choices that are aligned with my values I like them a whole lot better and I have a whole lot less do-overs. And I have a, this is a quote from a movie and it says that, and and I, can, I'm interchanging the words values and principles because I Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: see them, you know, as hand in hand. Principles are only principles when you practice them when it's inconvenient. And so if I'm truly going to be a leader that is effective, that people want to follow, that gets things done, that builds strong relationships, that does that in service to something larger than myself Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: or ourselves. I gotta practice my principles even when it's inconvenient. And that's why even though courageous conversations may be hard, that's my job. And I'm gonna hold myself accountable for having hard conversations. Col. John Boggs: Thank you. After all the work you've done, what inspires you still to continue doing this? Marsha Clark: You know, I'm a student of the human being, right? And I've always had an interest in business, and business can be for-profit, not-for-profit, again, organizational probably is the better Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: way. And nothing excites me more. I believe it's very purposeful work for me that Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: with the skill set and the experience that I've had both in building my own leadership capabilities and leading teams and then having a company that helps other people do that. I believe that my skill set is, I've got some real skills and talents and strengths in that area. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: And then when I couple that with the passion that I have for helping each and every human being on this planet to be the best that they can be and to live their own purposeful life. I just don't think there's anything better than that. And it's a never ending story and a never ending, you know, pursuit. Col. John Boggs: Over. Marsha Clark: And that's why at almost 74 years old, I'm still doing this work because I can't walk away from it. you know, especially as you mentioned, I do a lot of work with women and there's a lot that's going on about women that's, you know, Col. John Boggs: Yes. Marsha Clark: diminishing. I, you know, I don't want to pursue that, but we're at risk. There's things at risk that in my... 54 years of working. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marsha Clark: I thought we had kind of situated on that and gone on and I don't want us to lose ground. Col. John Boggs: Well, Marsha, that's awesome. for those that are listening and they want to connect with you, and I hope there's quite a few people out there that would want to connect with you, how do they do that? How do they do that? Marsha Clark: Yeah, yeah. So I have a website. It's Marcia Clark and Associates and M-A-R-S-H-A C-L-A-R-K. And then you're gonna write out the word and A-N-D and write out the word associates back in the days of domains. That was what was the best available thing. So Marcia Clark and Associates and you can reach me via email that way. you know, connecting with me. I'm on LinkedIn, so certainly you can connect with me that way. And, you know, if I may be so bold as to say I have written two Amazon bestselling books and one is called Embracing Your Power and the other is called Expanding Your Power. And if they want to learn more about my work, can, those books are available on Amazon and, you know, various places. I can also, they can order a book from my website and I'll sign it for them and send it to them and You know, I love people and I'll do anything I can to help people. And so those are the two that, know, via my website and via my book, books. Col. John Boggs: Very good. Well, Marsha, thank you very much. This was been more than an amazing session. think I could, I mean, my head was exploding with questions now. It's like, God, okay, we've got to get it all in. But Marsha, you were absolutely amazing. I mean, stupendous. I Marsha Clark: Thank Col. John Boggs: hope everyone really figured out because the whole purpose of this program is to... It's for senior leaders, it's for people in leadership positions to hear something, to learn something that they may have heard before, but Marsha Clark: Yeah. Col. John Boggs: now it resonates. And I hope this resonates with a number of people. So thank you very much for that. Marsha Clark: Thank you and thank you for making this kind of information available to your audience because there's not a there's not we need it to go in as many places as far and wide as we can. So thank you. Col. John Boggs: Yes, ma'am. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Marcia. And thank you all for listening. Hey, leadership is too important to get wrong. And if you want to learn something about leadership, please connect with Marcia. Stay steady. Lead well. Out here.