Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 256: When They Come To Burn Your House Down

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Ep. 256: When They Come To Burn Your House Down · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This is Me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: folk bitten, and in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast,
• 0:18
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• 0:22
  Speaker 1: are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download
• 0:26
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• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Nor where you stand with on x Okay, ladies and gentlemen,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you're you're bearing witness to a feat of COVID induced
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: technology where we're all over the damn plays not in
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: our studio. Well that's not true. Cal's in the studio,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Hello Cal, Hello, Stephen uh Brody is in the studio,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Hello Brody. Hello. And Janice is in the studio. Hello,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Jannae loved joined uh joined there by. I think Krin's
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: in there, fills in there. I'm I'm quarantined at home.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: This is my fourth quarantine. This time I'm so quarantined
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: that I'm out in my own guesthouse, like I'm not
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: allowed anywhere near even my own family. So I have
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: to look out the window into my home to see
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: my family going about their business, which is the saddest
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: thing on the planet. But my kids are treating me
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: like an underdog and they're watching out from my interests
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: and have gotten very mad at my wife for talking
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: rudely to me. So I'm manipulating that. I'm yea, they
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: feel they feel very bad for me. And joined by
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Jim Heffelfinger from Arizona. Jim and our friend Brandon Butler,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: who's down joining from Missouri. Correct Brandon, now, Brandon, this
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: is like a short notice Brandon coming on here because
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: the weirdest thing happened that I just found out about.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Someone sent me a link to a go fund me.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Uh that's being put on by Brandon's friend and Brandon
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: he'll tell what happened. But his uh, someone burned his
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: damn hunting camp down, and this hunt camp we recorded
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: podcasts out of. So that's kind of like is the relevancy.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know if people remember years ago, Yanni and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I were out spring turkey hunting in Missouri and it
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: was a time if you really stretch your memory back
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: and we're paying attention to our show. Back then, Yanni
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: had gotten a turkey and I actually found an old
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: crippled turkey and got that. Like I jumped up a
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: crippled up turkey and got it and tagged it, and
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: we were staying at Brandon's house, and so I was
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: quite alarmed this morning to see that someone had burnt
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: to damn camp down like full on Arson. Listen, Brandon, Yanni,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: you don't even know about this yet, Brandon, tell what happened.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that was. That was two thousand and eighteen
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: when you and Janice came down and joined me and
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Parker Hall and Steve Jones. We had a great, great
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: time and you guys hadn't you'd been there right when
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the cabin kind of started coming together. Called this place
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Driftwood Acres. It's down in Shannon County, Missouri. It's a
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: it's a rough part of the world, a very almost
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: lawless part of the world. So I knew what I
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: was getting into going down there as a professional conservationist,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and uh yeah, it didn't play out so well. Back
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and seventeen, a friend of mine was
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: hunting a field just off my property when a little
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: seven pointer white tail we call them seven pointers back
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: here in Missouri was out in this field. A road
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: hunter shot it off the road, wounded it, it ran
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: over onto my property. They drove out across my property,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: jumped it, up it ran for my buddy, who's wearing
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: Blaze orange, stands up in the tree stand is waving
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: at these people. They continue to fire at this deer,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: wounding it more. It goes into a creek, and finally
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: they confront my friend and tell him it was his
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: fault for not putting orange at the entrance of this
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: field at the road so they would know not to
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: shoot from the road. At that time, I went up
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: and and confronted these people. I was told to know
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: my place. I talked to the law enforcement and he
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: suggested just kind of letting this one ride. And man,
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: that is just eight at me for years, like the
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: fact that I didn't press charges. I just kind of
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: took it, moved on, tried to survive down there. This year,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: on Sunday of opening day a rifle season, at eight
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: thirty at night, me and three of my friends Nathan Shags,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: McLeod paddle down Cranfeld and my cousin Derek Butler. We're
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: sitting around a camp fire and the creek had flooded.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: And if you guys remember but this is just a
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: couple of nights ago, well, no, I'm talking about deer season,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: so this would have been like November, having burned a
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: couple of nights ago. Oh I got you, I got you.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: So if you guys remember I had to bring in
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: through the forest because the creek had flooded. That happens
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: a lot, and we're on the back side of it.
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: So the creek is flooded and we're thinking nobody's coming
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: in for deer season. Well, this truck comes across the creek. Anyways,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: they stopped at the end of my driveway, maybe a
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: hundred and fifty yards down from us. It's a long driveway.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Look up at us having a fire go about two
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: hundred yards further. Pull into this field, throw on the
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: light bars. I mean it would be like turning on
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: the lights at a professional baseball stadium. Just lit this
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: thing up like crazy, jump out and start unloading so
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: close that we're watching the muzzle flashes as they poached
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: these deer. So, without even thinking, I jumped into my
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: side by side and took off after him. My cousin
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: and friends start charging down the hill on foot to
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: follow me up, thinking I'm I'm going after poacher's unarmed.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: They're obviously armed. They take off. I get the license
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: plate number, I call the license plate number. In this time,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: I'm pressing charges. There's no way I'm I'm never gonna
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: live with that guilt again. I had no idea who
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: it was. It turned out to be some locals. Uh.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: The threats started coming. I started being told I don't
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: belong down there. All that uh starts coming through email,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: social media stuff like that, telling me that snitches end
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: up in ditches. Um, good luck, good luck hanging out
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: down here. And and then Monday night, at at twelve
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: twelve o'clock at night, my wife wakes me up. The
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: neighbor called and said the cabins burning down right now.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: So I jumped up, grab a few guns, take off.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: It's a three and a half hour drive. Get down
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: there about sunrise, says the final flames are still flickering.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: So you know it was it was just a building.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: But the possessions that I had in there were probably
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: thirty taxidermy amounts of mine and families, my my my
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: grandfather's Folds of Honor flag from World War Two after
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: he passed away, my my handmade great grandfather's bed. I mean,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: just the endless amount of like personal possessions that are
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: just irreplaceable and thankfully that I had cameras all over.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: The person has not been apprehended yet, but they will be.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And uh and yeah, so that's it. You know. It
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: took a stand for conservation, stood up to these poachers
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: and they burned my house down. God. Man, the pictures
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: are really upsetting to man. Yeah, it's it's still hard
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: to like look at the pictures because every time I
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: look at them, I noticed something else that Uh, that's there.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: If you look hard, you'll see. My friend Kevin Orthman
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: bought me an antique book press and in that book
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: press was the uh, the Meat Eater cookbook, uh, volume one,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: in volume two of the Tips and Tactics books. So
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: so even lost, even lost. That's the if if you
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: go back to the episodes we did from there, I
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: did the we I told a story about the steam
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: breathing turkey and Steve you said that, man, that that
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: was such a beautiful description. If I was a painter,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: I would paint that, and some dude did, and you
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: guys used it as a tour poster on your your
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: first go around. You were You were kind enough to
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: make me twenty copies of the Driftwood Acres version of
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: that poster and you and Janas signed it and sent
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: it to me, And it was in a frame next
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: to the actual fan from the steam breathing Turkey that
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: was centered between two bucks that I killed down there
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: in two bucks that shags killed down there that were mounted.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: All that's gone. Every Turkey fan that I ever had
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: is gone. Every European mount that I've ever had is gone.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Is the go fund me still up? Yeah? The go
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: fund me just came up today, and your body you
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: up yeah? And I'm I had insurance, I'm gainfully employed.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I am not in in horrible need of money. So
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm humbled by the outpouring of support and and
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: the friendship and and all I can say is like
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: whatever comes from the go fund me will not be
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: used selfishly. I'll find a way to use this money
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: to h to further conservation and hunting and fishing. And
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: you know, I had a full blown raft, you know,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: like a west I used to live in Montana and
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: fish all the rivers you guys fish. And I had
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: a fourteen hundred like a pack raft and outcast pack
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: fourteen hundred that burned up on the trailer the water
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Skeeter I had when I lived out there, burned up
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: four kayaks, my kids kayaks, and man, that's the hardest part. Like,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: you know, my girls are teenagers, they're fourteen and fifteen
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: years old, so sometimes dragging them down to this wilderness
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: treat was a pain in the ass. Like I had
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: to get the internet for them to even want to
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: go down there, so I had like satellite internet. But
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: they're crying, They're scared, like they're they're worried these people
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: might like actually come to our home. So like I'm
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: leaving the house at twelve thirty in the morning with
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: an a R fifteen in one hand, hugging my fifteen
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: year old crying daughter with the other hand. And it
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: took about an hour and a lot of Metallica songs
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: to realize like what I had done. You know, like
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I'm walking out of my house armed with like a
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: military grade weapon, hugging a fifteen year old child that's crying,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: and I'm like the position that I've not only been
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: putting myself, but then to react that way, like I'm
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I had to like sit her down and talk to her.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And but you know, it's a scary situation. It's a
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: scary place, and so why, like, why are the law
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: why is the law enforcement so reluctant to deal with it?
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't even get this, man,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: It's hard to explain. Man, I don't have the answers
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: for that. I'm I'm friends with the game wardens down there.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: They're under source. Of course, they're underpaid. I'm counting on
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a sheriff's deputy who probably makes you know, in the
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: thirties as far as money, And this guy's got to
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: put his life on the line to go after, you know,
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: hardened criminals because my cabin burned down. Like that's a
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: lot to ask of somebody to like go into this
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: holler where there's no phones, no service, no internet, and
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: try to apprehend somebody willing and able to do such
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: a heinous crime for thirty grand a year. So then
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: you know, there's also a huge national park there called
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: the Ozark National Scenic Riverways, and they have law enforcement
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: and and they have a hard time with getting the
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: prosecutions to go through. Um there's just a real clannish
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: culture down there, and and trying to get people prosecuted
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: and through the judicial system is hard as well. So
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: it's you know, it's just a very strange part of
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the world, very Appalachia, Like it's the poorest county in Missouri.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: But something has to change. And I've got you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I'm friends with the Lieutenant governor of our state. I've
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: got to call into his office, talked to a lot
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: of law enforcement people, you know, if I have to
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: be the martyr for this too, finally raise awareness that
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: there's almost a lawless society existing within our state, and
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: the fact that good people cannot go down there and
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: build a home and enjoy the outdoors and increase the
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: economy or anything that needs to be done to make
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: this a more civilized society than you know, what's it
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: gonna take. So I'm I'm really hopeful that this is
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: a turning point in the history of this county, in
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: the history of the Ozarks, because it's one of the
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: most naturally beautiful parts of the country. Man. I wish
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: we could get into the parts of this that we
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: can't quite get into yet. But it's just like kind
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: of a heartbreaking story. Man. It's so maddening and heartening. Man.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: But well, like I want to revisit it later on
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: down the road. But one of the things about the
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: go fund me, I know you were saying, oh, you know,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter and you had insurance. But I'll
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: come out and say that you've been real good about
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: sharing that place with people and being generous with it
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and instead of having a little chunk of ground that
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you that you lock up for yourself, trying to have
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: like a place where you invite people in and and
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: encourage conversations and try to use it as like, uh,
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: something that's positive and to get people to relate and
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: interact around conservation issues. Um. And I think it was
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: it's like it's a cool spot and what you were
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: doing there is cool, man. And I hope that people
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: go and check out your go fund me because, uh,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: you didn't lose a ton of stuff, and it wasn't
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: like a selfish project you had going on. It was
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: something you were trying to do to be a good dude,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: you know. So I feel like you should tell people
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: about the God On Me and people can come in
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: and try to lend some support for someone that that
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: for turning in. Some deer poachers had all their memories
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: and something that they care a great deal about burned
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: to the ground. Well, thank you very much. The outpouring
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: of support has been humbling. Man. When I saw my
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: phone go off today with your name popping up, I
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: was like, man, this is getting around, you know. So
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you guys, all of you. And you know,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Clay Nucomb has been to the cabin a few times,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Hal Herring has been there, and Russell Graves out of Texas. Like,
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I was trying to make it something special that would
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: hopefully bring some awareness to that area as well. I
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: was trying to do good things for the people down
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: there and and show that this is an incredible natural
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: resource area of our country. But yeah, I don't I
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: don't know, man. Uh. The go fund me, whatever money
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: comes from that, I'm going to use it for good,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: for conservation, for figuring out how to get more people
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: involved in the outdoor, taking more people fishing and hunting. Um.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: I lost my raft that I wrote a lot of
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: people down the river in that raft. Um. So it's
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: on the Driftwood Outdoors Facebook page. I think the go
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: fund me is called Brandon Butler's Cabin Burned by poachers.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: You can look it up, but the best way probably
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to find it is just to go to Driftwood Outdoors
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: on on Facebook. But what like, like I said, you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: like this money will be used in a way that
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: will let these people know that they didn't win that
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: you know, we're going to continue to take a stand
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: for conservation. You know that. I've been asked that too, Like, man,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: I bet you wish you wouldn't have turned him in.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: I'm like, absolutely not. I'll do it again tomorrow. Like,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: and I've had a bunch of people reach out and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: like my favorite thing is like a few folks have
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: been like, dude, this is like the Pearl Harbor of
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Shannon County. Like they don't know what they just woke up.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Like we're gonna get after it. So yeah, don't let
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: some piece of ship with a pointless life drive you out. Man. Right,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: that's the absolute truth. So we're just gonna keep moving forward.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: It's all you can do in life, right, Like, my
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: family is safe and healthy. Thankfully nobody was there. Uh
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: you know, the important stuff is still intact. Yeah, Brandon,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I know it hurts to lose all those material possessions,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: but it sounds like you've got the right attitude about it.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: And uh, you know, thankfully, no humans got hurt and uh,
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: what that song bitch can't take away from us are
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: those great memories, man, And I've got some incredible memories
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: from that place. And I can attest to what you're
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: saying about it's natural beauty. It's absolutely incredible. You wouldn't
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: think that, uh, southern Missouri would have water that flows
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: of that color until you go and see it, and
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I urge everybody to do it. It's absolutely stunning. Um.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, the memory we have, it's burning my mind,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: is that opening morning a Turkey season when I snuck
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: in there and call that old gobbler over to me
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: and I shot him, and in my head, I could
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: just see you and Steve up there on the other
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: side of the ridge going was that Yanni? Could that
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: could have been Yanni? They can't take that away from us. Yeah,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: you know, the feeling of knowing people are jealous of you,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: No one could take. Yeah, I'm trying to I'm trying
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to hunt with Steve, you know, and I want to,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: of course show you guys a good hunt and a
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: good time. And you know, it was like we we
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: said it was like Rachel Carson, Silent Spring, like Steve
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: and I didn't hear anything. It was like wildlife had
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: become the void. And then we show up and Jannice
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: is like, oh yeah, so easy killed one in thirty minutes.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: But me and Parker we had a good hunt too.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: We got three turkeys out of four and we should
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: have had four. So it was yeah, man, that stean
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: breath and turkey will live on forever. That's right, that's right. Well,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: we'll get you. We'll get you to replace with the
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: parts of it that we can help replace, like the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: books and the steam breathing turkey poster. We'll get that
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: sorted out. I appreciate you all right. Thanks for calling
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: in on short notice or joining in on short notice. Man,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: when I saw that, I knew I wanted to have
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: you on to talk about it because I was pretty upsetting. Well,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. You guys are the best. Thank
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: you very much and look forward to talking to you soon. Yeah.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: I hope some dudes come in and kick down on that.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Go fund me and help you out. Man. Thanks a lot,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: all right, take care of yourself well. When you want
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: to come out when everything goes back to normal, we'd
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: love to have you out in the studio. I'd love
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: to do it. Thank you, all right, dude, talk to
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: you soon, all right? Thanks? Oh yeah, So, Yanni, tell
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: me now what's going on with your dog and a
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: mountain lion and everything? Two mountain lions to be exact.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: But mingus and I spent some time walking tracks and
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and chasing lines is past week while you were in
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: pencils talking and uh we were with Jake Gribb, who
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: you know as well, buddy of ours. Oh yeah, we were.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: You were you there? And he got that Bobcat recently. No,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I haven't been in on a bobcat uh kill yet,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: but that guy is amazing. Man. I don't even know
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: how much we should really be like talking about how
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: much how good he is online, because he's gonna start
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: He's gonna be like that uh, that other Jake that
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: we know from Wisconsin people stalking because he knows we're
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: all the sturgeon are under the y you know, and
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid we'll put too much attention on him. But anyways, um,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I actually had a neighbor called me who had found
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a track, so we we It was a day old
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: by the time we got to it, but we went
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: and ran it. Anyways, eventually got on the on the cat.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: This was I think Monday morning on How did he
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: find the track? How did he find the track? Yeah,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I just I knew that he He lives just right
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: across the drainage from me, and I had told him
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: just to keep an eye out. And he was, you know,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: a couple hundred yards behind his house, just doing a
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: little walk about with some family members, and uh and
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: stumbled into it. And uh so we we put the
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: cat up eventually, Um, it's late in the day by then,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: it's like one or two pm. And uh, Mingus had
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: gotten had gotten to smell the We had eventually found
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: the fresher track that was the day of and he
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: had been on that track and smelled it a little bit.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Um and he took he took off down the track.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: But five minutes later he came back. Jake's dog stayed
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: on it. He came back like, hey, guys, what's going on?
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: You know, like he just he doesn't have it quite
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: there to stay on it yet. Well, we get to
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: the tree. Jake's dogs are there treeing, barking up a storm,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: and Mingus is like kind of joining in on the barking.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: But more because he's like, hey, everybody else is barking.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: I'll bark a few times too, write, but he just can't.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Like their cats kind of high, like I don't know,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: twenty ft maybe twenty five and it's kind of a
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: pretty thick dug for a lot of branches in there,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and you just can't get a good view, like I'm
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: only seeing like you know, part of the tale, and
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: like if you just get right angle, you can see
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: his face, um, and you just like, he just can't
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: put two. He at that point, he couldn't put two
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: and two together. That what he was smelling on the
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: track equal this cat up in this tree. Right, So
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: no matter what I did, We're like, I'm trying to
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: take his head and pointed up into the tree and
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Jake's looked at me like, dude, I've tried that a
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: thousand times. It just doesn't work. And so we spent
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: whatever half an hour there and uh, we took off.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: So it was a little bit of a bummer because
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I was like, man, we had invested, like you know,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know. We started at five o'clock in the morning.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: We walked out of there too. You know, it's a
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: long day and I didn't really feel that my dog
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: was any better for it, you know, It's just kind
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: of like, well, I guess we had to go do
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: it again. So two or three days later we went
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: to run another track, and this one was very fresh,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: like like, you know, hours prior to Jake finding it.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: It was laid in there. So we get on it,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: and Jake he's got a young dog that he's on
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: a train well too, so Mingus kind of gets second pick.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: And I was telling my girls. The best way to
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: understand it is like Mingus is probably a kindergartener as
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: far as like his level of understanding of this game.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Jake's eight months old is probably in like fourth fifth grade,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: and then he's got like a two year old that's like,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: you know, towards the end of high school, and he's
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: got one more that's a full on professional. So when
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: his eighth month old is running a fresh track, he
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: wants her to only be seeing what the other dogs
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: with more experience are doing. And he doesn't want a
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: dog like mine, who was a kindergartener, just run around
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: in circles half the time playing grab bass, you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: ruining a good thing. So his dogs go first it's ah,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: and I'm basically behind with Mingus on a leash and
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: just making sure that Mingus is literally taking every track,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: every footstep of that line, putting his nose into it
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: and just walking. And it was great to watch because
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you can actually see sometimes he'd get excited and he
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: veer off where the dog tracks went, but it wouldn't
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: take but five or six feet and he would jump
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: back to the actual line track. Well, I've been on
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: a few long ones, you and I have been on
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: a few long ones together. This one was like abnormally short,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: like from the time we cut Jake's dogs loose, I
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: don't think, and the actual three minutes went by until
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: you heard the boo boo, boo boo, the constant bark. Serious, yeah,
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: I mean it was fast. So we come over the
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: ridge and I look back at Jake. I'm like, are
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: they treating He's like, oh, yeah, this tree. So we
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: we walked down to Mingus and I follow the track
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: all the way to maybe fifty ft of the tree.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Now let go the leash and just let him run
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: in there, and you can see the cap plane his day.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: This time, it's not quite as high. It's only fifteen
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: feet up or so ah. Same thing with his dogs.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, two of them, the more experienced and the
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: and the pro or all over the tree. They know
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: what's in the tree. They're barking up a storm. The
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: young this one is sort of like going around the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: tree doing a lot of barking, like she knows that
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: that's what she's supposed to do, and that's where the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: scent ends. And it was interesting to watch two. You
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: could tell when the thermals would come down just right
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: and that cat scent would come straight down to her nose,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: she'd she'd light up, you know, mingus again. To three
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: minutes into being at this tree, he's kind of like
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: losing interest. He wants to run back on the track
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: because that's where it was exciting what he was smelling.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: And he just can't put two and two together still.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: And I know Jake that had he had told me,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: like it's been, you can't do it. I've tried a
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: thousand times, but this time the cats like more wide
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: in the open. It's not as high. The hill is
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: so steep that you only had to take like five
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: six seven steps back from the tree and you're almost
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: eye leveled this cat. So we're about in that. Help
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: what's that? Because I gotta understand when he says you
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: can't do it, he means you can't make a dog
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: look into a tree and see a cat. Yes, exactly,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: because that's what you want to do. Like it's right there,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: just like point his head in that direction. How could
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: you miss it? Can the dots? Yeah? And I think it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: He's he's smelling it. He just doesn't know what he's smelling. Again,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I was trying to explain to my daughters. I'm like,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: if you were smelling an apple pie but had never
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: seen one and never tasted one, you don't you don't
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: have an image for what you're smelling. You know. Um,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: even though this might smell good, it might be pleasurable,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know what it looks like. Well, I had
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: to try it again. So I grabbed that dog's head
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: and I pointed at that, at that lion, and I'm
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: kind of like looking at him looking at the lion,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: and man, it was like it was almost like that
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: his head kind of quivered and shook just for a second,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: and then it just locked. And then the next thing
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: was I mean just blew my ear drum out and
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: just went berzerko. He was just like, holy sh it,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: that's what said. That's what I've been smelling, that I
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: got it, and just he's like, everybody, look, everybody looks
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: lying in the tree exactly, and don't ever believe what
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I found. You want to talk about one track mine.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: At that point, we were just, you know, we're just
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Jake and I are milling around. His youngest is kind
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: he doesn't know for sure, but kind of a tree climber,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: so he's keeping a real eye on her to make
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: sure that she doesn't get too high up into this
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: tree because it had some low, pretty stout low branches,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: so she was making it up six seven feet pretty quickly.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Of course he doesn't want her to do that, but
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: we're just milling around and talking and enjoying the situation.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Is so funny because every time I get between mingus
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: and that tree, he'd get real annoyed and like had
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: to jump to the side to be like, no, man,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I got I gotta see this thing, em
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: bark at it, so don't get in my line of sight,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: you know. Um, But yeah, very uh. It was just
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: a very awesome feeling as a dog owner, you know,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: to see something like that click and to see it,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: see it go down and see the dog get excited. Um,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: that was sweet. The cool thing is you got him
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: from the pound and you yeah, yeah, he's a full
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: on Livingston Montana shelter dog. Yeah. Do you all? Is
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: there any a thing that you can't like? Like, can
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: that dog be a coon hound and a lion hound
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: or has you gotta like pick his pick his path
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: in life? No, I think that the the owner and
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: the handler has to uh do that. I think they're
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: they're they're probably only limited by how much their owner
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: trains them, I think is what I've been getting from most.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's some people out there that
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: tell you that will be better if they're just a
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: one one, one trick pony when it comes to that.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: But I mean, certainly Jake's dogs do bob cats and lions,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: and I know they're both cats. But I think that
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: if you just spend time with them, Um, they can
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: do it all. You know, they can figure out when
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: they're you know, supposed to be chasing one and supposed
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: to be chasing another. Yeah, are you gonna bring go ahead?
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Don't doesn't Cowboy Cody's dogs down Colorado. They run anything
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: like pigs and cattle and that's the run. Yeah, they
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: run lions and cattle man, he said, they'll run whatever
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: he tells them to be interested in. Now, are you
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: bringing that dog when we go to Arkansas coon hunting
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: with Clay? Are you bringing that dog down? Yes? Sir?
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: How are you getting it there? Alane? You drug it
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: and fly it? Okay, Yeah, that's what I was planning on.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I should drive. I don't care
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: road trip. I was looking for you do to you
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: drugging it and flying it in the bottom of the airplane.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: But whatever. You don't even have to drug them unless
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you know you have to draw into I guess I
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: thought you need to drag them a little bit when
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: they're kind of wild dogs like that. There's some some
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: folks that think that, and a lot of other folks
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: that I've talked to you that are like, no, the
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: dog as long as the dogs comfortable and a kettle
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: a plane is the same as the back your track
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: gives the like they're just going, yeah, but you haven't
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: seen the honest dog. And have you seen the honest's
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: dog in the back of a truck. No, I don't
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: know what you're getting what I've had them in the
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: back of my track. I guess it's a loud it's
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: a big, loudass dog that makes a lot of noise. Man,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: he can't be you'd hear him if you were in
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the plane. They're trying to sleep. You're not gonna sleep
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: on the airplane. If that dogs underneath there, that would
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: be a fun airplane experience because you gotta think of
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: how a few people understand what that is the baying
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: of a hound. Now, luckily I think that he's not.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to have any sort of like separation
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: anxiety or you know, he doesn't seem to like how
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: ball mark whatever when we're not home. Um, So I
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't I don't expect that. I wouldn't
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: expect that to happen. I've only flown a dog once
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: and we didn't drug her. M I'm looking forward to
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: that trip, man. Oh yeah, me too, me too. You
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: know we already got a title for the episode, right, No,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: please tell me A dog in the Fight. Oh that's
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: a good title. Now. I'm looking forward to making that episode. Man.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: The only reason I didn't want to make it as
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know what we'd call it. I don't know,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead. I was just saying, I don't
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: know if I'm gonna talk about this about about hunting
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the squirrels or the cones. Um. That's good news. I'm glad.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I like tracking the progress of mingus the dog um.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: I want to move. Can we move down to this
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: this thing about how not to how not to damage
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: your scroll on a horse? Please? After that, I'm out
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: of where you going. I'm kidding. Oh, this dude wrote
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: in This is one of the more interesting guys that's
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: ever written in he Um. We had a podcast episode.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: It was during the COVID pandemic. I remember that. I
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: think it was early pandemic. We had on our beloved friend,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Kevin Murphy, world's greatest small game hunter, who had recently
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: returned from Mongolia, and he had been doing some falconry
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: uh in Mongolia, and we talked about that, and we
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: got to talk about riding horses, and I got talking
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: about how hard it is to ride a horse without
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: damaging up your scroll. Um and for me at least,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: and he rode in and he's this guy rode in,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: and he's the most interesting guy I've heard from in
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: a while. He's a blacksmith and a horse trainer. Him
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and his wife teach people to ride wrote and jump
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: on horseback. And he says that we're also naturist. And
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've heard this term because remember that
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: guy that rode in it was a naturist elk hunter. Yes, yeah,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: he he bow hunts elk naked and was saying how
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: he could read the wind real good, like like he
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: never wonders what way. Yeah, like he never wonders what
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: way the winds on. It's like you just feel it naked.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: So this guy's a this guy has a lot of
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: insight and riding and not hurting your your scroll. And
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: he goes on to say with a lot of other
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: people rode in to say about how if you're if
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: it's taken a beaten, you're like your seat is wrong.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: You gotta sit the horse properly in a western saddle.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Your ass is tucked under you, you're pressed back into
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: the seat, your upright, you're not leaning forward your knees
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: or bent your heels down. He says that you can,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: you can if you're sitting right, you can ride comfortably
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: with pants or no pants. But he says, this is
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: where it gets interested. He says, I still prefer a
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: pair of bike shorts or something that's underwear, because when
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I am wearing clothes, my scroll them just kind of
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: relaxes and expects support. Then he goes on to say,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: this is it's something that's never occurred to me before.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: He spends enough time nude around the farm and around
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: the woods that he claims that his testicles have retained
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: the natural ability, which I didn't know is like that
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: that you lose it, But he he retains the natural
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: ability to retract and firm up in times of physical activity,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: like when running or chopping wood or hunting a stretching routine.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: It's like hold on limber am tighten up. So he's
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: saying that most fellows like us, who run around like
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: suckers wearing their clothes all the time, that you're losing
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: your ability two retract and firm up. But that he
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: has retained the ability to retract and firm up. And
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: then that has nothing to do with the fact that
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: his nuts are cold. He's like, I retain the ability
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: to firm up in cold water. So my advice is,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: he says, Dude, dude, I'm not even half Joe. I
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: like this guy a bunch. I don't want to seem
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: like in any way in any way that I'm like
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: like I would go hang out with this guy. My
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: advice is, unless you're gonna spend a lot of time
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: nude and exercising the muscles that retract your boys up
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: into your pelvis like a samurai, where something for support,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: and learn to sit properly in the saddles. So he's saying,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: there's a binary decision to be made here, go neude
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: enough that the boys learn where to ride on their
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: own or sit right. So I have I'm at a decision.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I'm at a a pivot point as a rider this
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and I'm suggests that, Uh, the overwhelming majority of people
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: have learned to sit right and skip the nunity party
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: with virtually virtually everyone that I see riding nowadays has
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: taken these second choice. But when we go down to
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: hunt coons with Clay, we're gonna be riding around on
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: mules and Yan, I just don't want you to be
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: surprised if you see some things you maybe don't want
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: to see. Oh, I'm fine, Well, yeah, do what you
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: gotta do. Man, I just think of all the like
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: pasty white, transparent, old rancher skim that has never seen
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: the light of day, really reinforces the people just learned
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: how to sit right. Yeah, sure, Cal, you know you
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: know what I want to do. I want to move
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: into something for that Cal is gonna talk about, but
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: I want to break up Jim Heffelfingers responsibilities. Jim, do
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: you mind um telling everybody what you were telling me
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: about about the ocelot and the jaguar and all that,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: And are you gonna be able to share those images
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: so people can go see them. The images are actually
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: embedded into scientific paper and I would just sent this
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: morning this paper and it was just a short note
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and it has a series of photos nighttime photos from
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: a trail cam that's next to a water catchment in
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: northern Guatemala where there's ocelots and jaguars both and they
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: had images of a jaguar coming into the water, taking
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: a drink and then going back off into the darkness.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: And while it or a taper comes by and drinks
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: out of the water, and the jaguar don't leaves it alone.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Taper leaves, and then a little as lot comes in,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: starts drinking, and the jaguar pounces out of the darkness,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: kills the jag kills the ocelot, and then drags the
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: ocelot off, And the scientific paper has the images embedded
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: in the paper itself. But then there's some note that
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I haven't followed yet that says that there's supplemental information,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: which usually means there's more information somewhere online. But a
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: lot of times those scientific papers are are you've got
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: to subscribe to the journals to get into. It's not
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: always open access. So I haven't checked yet whether those
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: images are available. I can send you the paper and
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: we can see if that's available in the public. Why
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: do you think he would kill um? Why would he
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: not kill the tape here, but he would kill the ocelot. Yeah,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: those the tapers are kind of big, but that's part
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: of their that's part of their diet down there in
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: the jungle. Why he would kill an azla? That's what
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: makes it so bizarre, That's what makes it so noteworthy
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: to show up in a scientific paper as a note.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: It's just it's not really a competitor, so it's strange. Well,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: and I don't think we know for sure just from
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: those pictures if the thing disappeared into the darkness, that
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: it was necessarily just sitting there that whole time period,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: and maybe it was out for a walk about while
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: the tape here was there just happened to be back
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: when the oslats showed up. I mean, is there like
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: any evidence that they do the same thing that wolves
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: do with coyotes and just kill him to kill them
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: like they're just I don't think there's a lot of
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: evidence of cats doing that because they're more solitary animals,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: just living in the jungle, kind of doing their own things.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: So it's pretty strange. Hey, do you think, Jim, right now,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: at this like very second, do you think there are
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: is a jaguar in the US right now? Do they know?
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. We normally have had one,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: it's not always the same one. We've normally had one,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: But I haven't heard since before we talked last time.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: It has been a year since I've heard any fresh information,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: So I don't really know. Yeah, so there might not be. Yeah,
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. Do you root for jaguars root against jaguars?
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: So have we had that conversation. I root for the
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: same thing you do, that they continue to be able
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: to come up and visit and hang out in these
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: mountain islands in southeastern Arizona. There was some talk and
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: there still is, of putting them the crates and moving
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: them to the Pondrosa Pine high elevation forest in central Arizona.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't make any sense to me. Oh yeah,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: why not? Why doesn't it make any sense? Oh? There
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: that was that was really beyond the range of um
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: the core of jaguar habitats. So there's like there's hundreds
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: of over a hundred thousand jaguars throughout the range in
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Central America, and the Amazon is the epicenter of jaguars.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: And they came up, and they came out and visited Arizona,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: New Mexico. They came up, being a little farther than
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: that in prehistoric times like the places the scene. But
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: this Arizona, New Mexico is a northern fringe of their habitat,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: and they should be able to do what what animals
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: do with the northern fringe, come up and visit and
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: colonize and stay. But this really isn't the core of
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: their habitat, and to take them from other populations like
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: northern Mexico and then putting them up into what is
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: really not good jaguar habits had a real dry ponderos
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: of pine forest is not ideal jaguar habitat, even though
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: a two hundred years ago we have some evidence of
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: them moving through there. So it's like trying to re
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: They would be trying to re establish a population in
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: a place where you feel it would be dubious at
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: best to say that they were that they had a
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: breeding population there. Yeah, we know a lot about what
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: kind of habitat jaguar do really well on, and they
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: do the best in those more tropical habitats, and then
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: they do okay in in areas like northern Mexico and
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: the mountains and the sky Islands in southeastern Arizona and
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: central Arizona were just really areas where they moved through.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: And like we talked about last time, but if you
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: look at the Native American cultures in the southwestern Arizona,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: New Mexico, the jaguar wasn't part of their their culture.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: They don't have motif they didn't revere the jaguar and
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: that's really the case in Central America where they were
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: really common and writing center of their distribution. Oh man, I,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we've talked about this for I
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: love those things. I think it would be you know,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: it'd be pretty great to be walking through the woods
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: and there's one standing there. Now. I did send you
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: that book Borderland Jaguars. Did you go, yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I like that book. I like that book. That's got
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: a good documentation of these jaguars in this northern end
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: of their habitat. Yep, all right, cal uh, We're gonna
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: touch on this a little bit because this dude rode
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: in Um. It's kind of interesting. A guy wrote in
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: about possession limits and he's not the first person to
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: write in about possession limits, and just some people understand
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We talk about possession limits to
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: be in hunting, you'll you'll quite often see that you'll
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: encounter a species where you have a what's called the
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: daily bag limit. And this goes for fishing, this goes
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: for hunting. For our case here, let's say that we're
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: talking about fishing. Let's say you go somewhere and they
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: have a daily bag limit of five walleye. Okay, that
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: means in a day, in a given day, you're allowed
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: to catch and retain five walleye. You'll often see tack
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: down to that, a possession limit would be Typically, it's
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: very common to see a possession limit be two daily
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: bag limits. What that would mean is, let's say you're
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: camping out and you're you gotta fish camp set up,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: you're at the river access, you got your camp or
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: trader there, um, you've been there for a couple of days.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: They're saying that you could have in your cooler or
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: in your camp two bag limits. That doesn't mean that
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: out in your boat, in your live will you have
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: to bag limits. But like you went out caught five
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: on Saturday, you went out and caught five on Sunday.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: They're cool with you having Saturday and Sunday's daily bag
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: limits in your possession. And this this system starts to
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: get really complicated for people because a lot of times
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: it winds up being like, Okay, does that mean that
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: I can have it in my freezer at home? What
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: if I have it where I've already turned it into
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: a jerky or sausage, does that count as my limit?
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: This guy that wrote in, brought up a really interesting
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: twist on this question of how possession limits work, where
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: he says he it is dude from Illinois, writes in.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: He says, for example, Illinois has an early goose season
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: in September, but there are two zones with different limits.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: The North zone has a five goose daily limit and
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: a fifteen goose possession limits, so there you can have
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: three daily bag limits. The South zone has a two
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: goose daily limit and a six goose possession limit. He
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: then goes down to ask, let's say I live in
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the South zone but hunt for three days in the
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: North zone and bring home eight geese. Am I breaking
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: the law since I am two over the possession limit?
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Or another scenario, I live in the North zone and
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: have twelve geese in my freezer from the early season.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: Then in October the regular water fall season starts and
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: the possession limit changes to nine. Am I then violating
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: the law? Cal take this one away. So this is
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: a great, great topic, and um it, it really doesn't
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: get confusing as long as you keep in mind that
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: hunting is a management tool and fishing is a management tool,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and your bag limits and possession limits change by state,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: by zone, by region, uh, and by and by fishery
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: and fly away um, such as the North South zone
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: uh that this fellow rode in with. And in Montana,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: all right, we have a Pacific flyway and a Central
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: flyway that you can hunt without leaving the state and
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: UM it gets really interesting when you start looking at
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: fisheries as well. A great example, right is your your
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: bucket biology examples of taking let's say, perch and uh
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: dumping them in to new ponds. So there's an example
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: here in the state of Montana where uh you can
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: have uh two bodies of water on the same highway.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: One has a daily possession limit or I'm sorry, daily
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: bag limit. You know, your daily take of perch. The
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: possession limit is three times the daily take it. Possession
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: in Montana is your possession of that species in total.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: So it means what you have on you, what you
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: have at your camp, whatever that camp maybe, and whatever
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: you have at your home. Uh. It doesn't say the
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: example that the uh dude rode in with is hilarious
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: because he threw on something that I hadn't even thought of.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: When she's like, well, what if I have a mounted
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: bird on my wall? It's like it's a bird. A
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: great question. I hadn't thought of it. UM. And in
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: the state of Montana, it doesn't say anything about taxidermy. UM.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: It does in the fact that if you're going to
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: transfer a bird to a taxidermist, the state that it
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: needs to be in. UM. But possession limit is anything
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: cammed smoked. It implies whatever state that meat is in,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: if it is the species in question, it pertains to
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: your possession limit. So to finish with this example, if
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: you go further down the same highway into a new
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: drainage where they have somebody has transplanted those perch illegally
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: into this other fishery where they do not want the perch.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: There is no daily limit on perch, and there is
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: no daily possession limit on perch. So what the hell
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: does a game warden do then, especially if Steve's fishing
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: at the reservoir where there is a daily limit and
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: a possession limit, and I want to stop in and
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: see Steve on my way home, which would make sense
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: because it's on the same highway, right, But I have
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: a cooler full of fish that are totally illegal. I
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: just happened to be passing through a zone where had
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: I been fishing and catching fish in that zone, it
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: would then be illegal. Um. I I had to call
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: a game warden on this add you know they they
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: laugh typically because the what ifs can really run rampant,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: but UM, you know it always comes down to a
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: game warden's discretion. UM. And those possession limits, the definition
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: of possession is different in every state. So I was
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: looking at an example. Uh, this couple of guys in
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Texas got caught with boy I can't even remember now,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: like seven times the daily uh or seven times the
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: possession limit. The legal possession limit for croppy A ton
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: of croppy. UM, very illegal. But if you read the
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: law in Texas the way the possession limit is written
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: in Texas, if you have a permanent camp as in
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: a real deal cabin that you live at and can
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: get mail at, your possession Anything that you store at
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: that place does not count towards your possession limit. But
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: if your buddy is right right next to your cabin
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: where you get your mail, and they're in a camper
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: trailer that they do not get their mail at, the
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: fish that they bring back to their camper trailer counts
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: against their possession limit. So to me, that's almost like
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: an odd sort of you're kind of getting into the
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: halves and have not there where. It's like, well, if
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: you can afford to have a house on the lake,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: not a house two blocks from the lake, you're more
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: than likely to be able to retain a hell of
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: a lot more fish just because you don't have to
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: spend time and travel to get the fish to the
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: place where they don't count against your possession limit. Um,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I don't think, let me yes, go ahead. I want
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: I want to throw another wrinkle into this, and I
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: know we're like that maybe you have a final hopefully
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: you have like an answer, because we're like it's like
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: a question with a question, because these are all things
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: that I ought to be curious that you have. Jim
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: speak to this too. I feel like these are things
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: that are are well meaning laws that are so confusing
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: that it's like setting people up for failure because you
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: can't figure out how to be compliant, Like you cal
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: you brought up. Let's say you go get a bunch
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: of geese and you make sausage. Yeah, I mean so
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: now you have a bunch of goose sausage sticks. Uh,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: how do you figure out like you still you save
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: one bag of goose sausage sticks and then the next
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: goose season starts up. How do you go like, Okay,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: I need to account for this, being like what is
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: this portions of five geese? Is this like a goose
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: is worth? I feel like you're putting people into a
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: situation where you're kind of like and it's probably why
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: you don't read about people getting busted for this stuff
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: unless they're like big time poachers, because you can't roll
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: into someone's house dismantled their freezer and start trying to
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: reconstruct their last year of activities and and that that
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: is the answer, though, is documentation. And in this day
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: and age that it's so easy to to document. Um,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: so you know, you just got to label your stuff
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: and you do need to be accountable for it. Um.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: But yeah, you're exactly right, Like a bag of jerky,
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I turned a lot of meat into jerky last year,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: Um it was it was big game, so it's easy
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: to take keep track of. But um yeah, if if
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: game wardens came into the house and grabbed that bag
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: of jerky and decided to start doing uh DNA analysis
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: on it, you know they're gonna have a single bag
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: that has an elk from Idaho, a mule deer from Idaho,
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: a cuse deer from Mexico, you know, and or coots
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: and yeah, and and that. You know, all that testing
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: costs money, So what's what's the end result gonna be? Right? So? Um?
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: In waterfowl terms, you know, Canada geese and Montana right
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: now are like a plague. I've never seen so many
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: birds in my entire life. It is unbelievable. Um. But
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: you know, if if you know, big goose spreads, lots
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: of decoys are big investment. And I just started kind
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: of doing the math on if you really wanted to
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: get involved in goose hunting and have all the decoys
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: and be compliant with the law as it's written. In
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: order for you to just go and hunt Saturday and
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Sunday and shoot limits of geese, you have to, I mean,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: every licensed hunter in your household has to eat six
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: Canada geese per week during during Monday through Friday, you
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: have to eat six candidate if you want to keep
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: at it. Yeah, I'm sorry, Tim, right, so yeah, tan
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: tan Canada geese per week per licensed hunter if you
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: want to keep at it um and then we can
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: have beyond that. So we one time asked the UH
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: state trooper in Alaska, you don't have game wardens or troopers,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: but we asked the trooper, we're trying to understand possession
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: limits and how it works there. And let's say you
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: have UH Let's say you happen to have a fish shack,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: and at this fish shack you have a freezer, and
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: you're curious. Okay, if a haliban possession limit is two
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: daily bag limits, that means you're allowed to have four
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: haliban in your possession. The way when when we were
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: trying to get clarity on how this worked, we spoke
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: to troopers who said that the men it it's processed
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: for consumption, it no longer is in your possession limit,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: Meaning if you go, if you get to haliban and
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: you take them home, and you filly those haliban and
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: portion them and vaccine limb and freeze them, they're no
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: longer in your possession. Then it's just a matter of
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: that your daily bag limits don't exceed how many days
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: you've been at your cabin, meaning if you're at your
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: cabin five days, you could theoretically freeze ten haliban, but
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: you better not have twelve because you haven't been there
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: that many days to have accumulated them. And when we
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: talked about okay, like what about something that you're not cleaning,
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: Like let's say you're talking about shrimp. Okay, you catch
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: shrimp and you just freeze the tails and you can
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: be on the water with just shrimp tail because you
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: allowed three quarts of shrimp tails. So I haven't done it.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I haven't processed it. All I did is freeze it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: And they said, if that's how you process it, if
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: that's how you freeze it for later consumption, we would
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: regard that as being processed. So when I just throw
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: my whole poach deer straight into that baild freezer, I got,
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: I'm good to go. If that's how you like to
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: eat it later. Yes, I saved the guts that way. Um.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: So you're like, this is how I cook, this is
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: how I cook them. Here's another wrinkle, right, Um, my
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: girlfriend shot four geese and brought four geese home. She
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't put the geese and her freezer. She puts them
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: in my freezer. So those four geese are labeled with
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: her information. Um, and but they're they're at my residence.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: I get my mail with my geese that because of
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: the overlap, I have labeled with my information as well. Right,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: and this is like paranoia basically, like very few, but
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: I feel like that would. I feel like a warden
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: would respect that system. They I think they would as
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: long as they were, uh, you know, not looking to
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: find something else. I guess I think you know, as
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: most of these wardens that you talk with, Right, it's like, um,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: we uh, I have no reason to doubt you until
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: we do. And then if we're gonna make a case,
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: we're gonna um make sure that we make the whole
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: case essentially. Yeah, you know a good way to look
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: at Oh sorry, go ahead, Yeah, go ahead. I was
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: gonna point out. I was gonna point out a helpful
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: way to look at this kind of stuff. Uh. We
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: have a friend cow and your friendly with him too,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: who used to he's a lawyer and he used to
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: represent the Wyoming He used to represent Wyoming as their
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: head attorney, the Fishing Game Department. And he we were
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: talking about all these arcane or these like little known
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: rules and ways that seems like you could get in trouble.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: And we got on the subject of of bartering and
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: selling wild game. Okay, it's illegal to barter in trade
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: with wild game, like you can't use it like currency, right,
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: so it would be illegal for someone to you to
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: go to the guy that changes your oil and he's like,
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, don't worry about it, man um, happy to
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: do it. Just make sure to drop me by a
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: couple of walife lays next weekend. You're technically breaking the
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: law because you're bartering and trading with wild game. But
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: this attorney invited me to go and look at what,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: he goes, Go look at where you actually see that
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: and forcement tool applied to people, he said, Only you'll
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: only find it get applied in places where you have
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: someone who is in a real, real bad position, and
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: you'll find that Awarden will then add on every possible
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: thing he can add on, so that when you start
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: pleaing down, you have a mountainous ship to plea through.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: And he goes, that's he goes, that's the only situations
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: where I see like this bartering and trading thing coming
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: up when it's someone who's done like some really bad
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: stuff and they're going through and they're being like, Okay,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: three counts of this. We're gonna add counts of this.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: We're gonna add counts to that, and it just winds
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: up being, um, it winds up being a way to
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: just lay it on heavy when someone really has it
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: coming and and they kind of need to write because
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: a lot of these you look at so many wildlife violations, uh,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: spread all over all the news sources, and inevitably, UM,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: people who are in the know and people who are
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: just being exposed to this stuff for the first time
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: come the same conclusion. Right, It's like, that is a
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: reprehensible crime. I can't believe they got away so easy.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: But the reality is a lot of times that that
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: is exactly what the law provides for. It's like, well
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: that if you look at it, that is a maximum
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: allowable fine of you know, five d a thousand dollars,
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: two fifty dollars. And it's like, so that's why, um,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: when it's time to nail somebody, it's like stack them
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: up because mhmm. If they get out of some of it,
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: it's just it's not almost not even worth our time
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: type of thing. So it's I called it. I called
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: the warden the other day because we're having a hard time.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: We're arguing a lot about the law that we couldn't
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: figure out what it meant. And I got to the
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: point where I decided it wasn't just me, like, like
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: I felt that it didn't make sense. And when I
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: got him on the phone and I invited him to
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: go read it, he read it. And it was kind
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: of funny because he read it and he's kind of like, huh, yeah,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: you know, but then was able to solve it for me,
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: like he saw something that I didn't see. But it
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: was just it was an interesting interaction to have with
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: someone to be confused about the law. Call up. They're
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: really glad that you called. They respect the fact that
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: you're trying to sort it out. And then it wasn't
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: like you dumbass, It was like, oh, I see where
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: you're confused here, let's look through it. Uh, consider this.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: And that's a way better interaction to have than to
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: wait till later and get in trouble and then be like,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: but it is confusing, because at that point it's like
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: you probably should have cleared up, cleared up the confusion. Great,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: great example, right. I called the Region three Montana Fishing
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Game Office the other day talking about accessing, um, some
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: ground that would fall within the this late c w
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: D hunt that we have going on, chronic wasting disease
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: mitigation deal um, and Warden was super helpful and and
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: um we're talking. He's like, now, remember, Montana stream access
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: law does not provide for big game hunting. It provides
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: for recreation and fishing. So if you want to access
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: that spot, you better float to it or drag a
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: canoe with you. So I could legally drag the canoe upstream,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: paddle the canoe upstream, and have the situation where I've
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: got a boat with me, so I haven't exactly just
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: walked the high water mark line. Am Uh, that would
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: make it more legal. And I said. I was like, yeah, yeah,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: I'm familiar with this. I understand it. Um, but you
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: know this just is not right. This like law is
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: designed to make your life a living hell. Right And
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: he said, well, how so? And I said, well, because
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: in the state of Montana, no matter what season it is,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: hunting season or not, it's one legal two carry a
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: firearm anywhere I want on public land under the high
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: water mark. So how can it be legal to hike
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: in under the high water mark with a rifle. Ah,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: I could be wearing orange or not and just say like, well,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: I don't have the intention to hunt game. I know
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: other people are out here, so I'm wearing orange to
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: be safe, and I like having my rifle with me.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: And then I had to change your mind and decided
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: to hunt. You know. It's just that may work on
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: the way in, but not on the way out with it. Yeah,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: but you want to go to court dragging your boat
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: and what's recreation? Yeah, Like it seems pretty obvious what
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: you're trying to accomplish. So like the fact that you're like, oh,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: but I have a boat with me. I mean, I
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: know the game wardens saying that's the way to cover
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: your ass, but it doesn't seem right. You could have. Yeah,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: it's just it's a odd, odd thing. But there's a
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: lot of that out there, and it's like, do you
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: want to take the Montana stream access law to court
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: um and try to get a specific provision put in
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: for big game hunting where you could possibly uh, you know,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: they're screwing it up for everybody somehow, someway they tried
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: to make laws black and white, but the reality is
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: there's just a whole bunch of gray in between. Oh yeah,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: and that's the fun parts to pick at. Man. I
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: had another interaction we'll move on after this, but another
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: interaction with a warden where I was looking at a
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: spot on a map and I was like, I, it's
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: it occurred to me that a fellow would be able
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: to go do a certain activity there that just seemed
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: like he shouldn't be able to. And I said, I said, man,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: I keep looking at this and it just seems to
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: me like you'd be able to do X there. And
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: he was inviting me to He's like, why does it
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: seem not right to you? Like was asking wanted me
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: to entertain this to myself and see if there was
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: something there or not right. Other than being like, ah,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: I found a secret, you know, he was kind of
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: like inviting to use some discretion and not try to
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: view it like can I get away with something that
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: maybe feels a little funny, you know, but it's not enforcement? Yanni.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: You here's the thing I wanted to mention to you,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: and it's interesting you two cal I think, is Yanni
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: you guys have you guys actually you guys have had
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: babies at your house, right correct too. And then the
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: human babies like like birthing babies. Yeah, not just like
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: baby party. Did you use did you burn them into
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: the water? Um, I'm trying to think now, both times
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: we had uh we're looking at an image here of
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: a the blow up bathtub that babies are burthen too.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: Sometimes both times we had those setups. But I believe it. No,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: I want to say, baltim, we're just on the bed um.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: I think that my wife actually found it too relaxing,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: and it took her out of that mode of get
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: baby out and took her into more chill mode and
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: and and yeah, so it didn't happen in the water. Yeah,
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: well that's interesting. This dude wrote in that his wife
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: was having a baby at home and they had a
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: little kiddie pool they filled up with water, and he
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: took his Suvie circulator out of his kitchen and set
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: the Suvie circulator in there to keep it at the
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: right til very good thing, which is which is genius man,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: like a suvied baby. I might just I mean, next time,
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: I don't take baths often, but next time, my you,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, the aren't we have like a porcelain claw footer,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and uh, boy, you start off nice and
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: cozy and then and then you know, you read a
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: half a chapter and it's kind of a kind of
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: a tepid bath and it's not so much fun anymore.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: So this might be a thing, a little mini whirlpool.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, you take you set that suvie thing
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: at like one o two and jump in there. It
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: would be like great. Man. Uh, this other guy a
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: real quick. This other guy wrote in he he got
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: the new survival book, the wind n Skills and Survival Book,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: and he went on his trip, uh and the Great
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: Smoky National Park with his girlfriend, five day backpacking track
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: and they ran in all these weather problems and the
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: weather got all bad and everybody got all cold, and
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: it was it turned into kind of an unexpected survival situation.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: And he wrote in to say that he used he
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: actually burned the book and it worked great. He but
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: he said, he leankfully. He already read all the pages.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: It was all wet on the rim, but he found
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: dry in the middle and burned the book and save
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: the day. I feel like that dude deserves and no,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: he deserves a new book. I think man, definitely I
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: like his little description too, when he says, uh, later
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: that evening, after he's all wet. He said it began
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: to rain, didn't stop raining for thirty hours. And not
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: only was it raining, the air seemed to be so
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: thick with moisture I could almost drink and breathe at
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: the same time. That line caught my eye too. Man,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: he's got a he's like a he's a word smith.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: He's like a little bit of a writer. He's pouring
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: it on heavy. I'll admit I was getting skeptical after
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: a while. Then I saw the picture of the book,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: and I believe him. Oh no, that that books, that
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: book's been through hell man, But I feel like we should.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: I gotta try to figure it out and remember to
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: send his dude named Dylan out of Omaha, Nebraska, to
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: send his dude a new book to replace the book
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: he had to burn up. It's nice to know when
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: your books come in handy, you know what I mean? Yeah, Well,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: the and this is exactly what that book was it for,
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: exactly what this guy ran into like just out for
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: kind of a I don't want to say mundane, but
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: like just a little regular outing, not some crazy, big adventure.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: It was a three hour tour. All right, there's another
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: thing I want to get into, and then we're gonna
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: have Dn Jim Hefelfinger is gonna swing back in for us. Uh. Chris,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: Chris gilt Ridge Pounder is he's he's been on. He
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: comes on the show quite a bit. He's working on
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: a fine art project, oh where he's been taking pictures
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: of funked up old deer stands. And we've been talking
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: about how we want to do a coffee table book,
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: a fine art coffee table book called fucked Up Old
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: deer Stands. It's gonna be We created an email. It's
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: like he's only got like he's got six or seven
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: that are bookworthy. But to really do a good book
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: that we can sell next Christmas. To really do a
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: good book, we need like fifty great photos. So we're
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: gonna start a crowd source. Chris Skills. Rich Pounder is
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: the photo editor, so he's gonna do primary photography. He'll
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: probably have more pictures than anybody else. But if you
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: do a picture and see you the listener, send your
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: pictures in, your pictures might make the fine art coffee
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: table book. So we made an email it's fucked up
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: old deer stands at the meat eater dot com. Send
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: in your pictures. Cryst'll get him. We'll contact you for
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: permissions and everything. And you gotta find the oldest, jan
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: kiest Like we're talking about the kind of old stands
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: that like look real hazardous to get into in a
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: long like fifty years ago someone nailed to tarp up
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: and it's just blue fray blown in the wind, like
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: the worst old deer stand you know about. It could
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: be a tree stand, ground blind, whatever. Send a picture,
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: and Chris might need to advise you on how to
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: get the right picture, because you remember, this is not
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: this isn't dear camp humor. This isn't like a hat
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: that says, you know, I didn't wake up grumpy this morning.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: I let her sleep. It's not like that kind of stuff.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: It's like fine art. It's fine art photos, No people,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: fine art photographs of funked up old deer stands. So
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: send your if you're thinking about getting this done with
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: your brand new iPhone twelve pro, don't bother you. No,
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: maybe you can, I don't know, maybe they're maybe Yep.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: The email is set up. Fucked up old deer stands
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: at the media dot Com. Send him in. Eventually Cris
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: will start digging around in there. We'll notify you and
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: we're gonna make a book, and we're gonna have it
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: be for next Christmas where you'll be able to buy
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: um a fine art coffee table book under that title.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: That's the title of the book. It's already been decided,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: so run out, go ahead. I was just gonna ask,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: do you have I feel like we're going to be inundated.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be a thick book. Then yeah, I'm thinking
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: there's gonna be way more than fifty pictures. Uh. I
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: mean Chris alone, just on the little chunk of property
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: that he and I hunted together this year in Wisconsin.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: I think he got to take pictures of six different
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: very fucked up old deer stands, and well, I think
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: that's the six he's talking about, and he got he
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: got another one, might have two very funked up old
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: deer stands to narrow it down. And I know if
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: he got another, I know if too that we didn't
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: even walk by that, I think there would be you know,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: very you know, high contenders um for the book. We
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: he took we found just a section of ladder in Pennsylvania,
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: a section of a ladder stand where the stand was gone,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: but it had snowed a lot, and so it's just
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: kind of like this low It looked like a real metaphor,
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: like half of a ladder standing out in the woods.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: And he took a picture of that, says he wasn't
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: really feeling it, but you know, it could make the book.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's the cover photo, but it couldn't
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: make the book. It could be the back cover. And
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: we're gonna caption, We're gonna write captions for all the
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: fine art photography. For me, if there's an interesting thing
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: that goes on with these old deer stands, because when
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: they're only like kind of old, like someone just sat
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: at him in the last five years, and you look
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: at it and you can tell that it's been retired.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: You look at and you're like, ha, I wish someone
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: would take that thing down. It's such an eye store.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: But then like another ten years, fifteen years goes by,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: they become art. Yeah, you walk by and you have
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: like a little nostalgia for for he's past. Yeah. Man,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: the last time I was in Pennsylvania, looked at my
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: old wood stand. It was just like part of the
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: earth that was sad, you know that men used for you.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: There's a there's a genre of old man type hunting
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: camp painting where it's like an old deer stand, a
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: funked up old deer stand, and there's a big buck
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: standing by it. That's like a genre of art and
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: you're supposed to look at and be like, oh man,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: you know that Will Kajer is probably dead now and
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: here's a giant buck by his deer stand. So help
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: out there if you can, folks, and we'll keep you
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: posting on how it goes, and and Ridge Pounder will
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: eventually get in there and reach out, and he might
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: have advice about how to make it more fine art
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: if it's if it's not, if it's not fine art
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: and it's more like kitch, he'll probably help you steer
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: it into fine art. So keep your eyes peeled. That's
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: one of those projects where you get the title and
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: then you have to do it. Oh yeah, well, our
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: original title was Chris wanted to call it old funked
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: up old deer stands, but then we cut one of
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: the old We cut one of the olds out just
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: to simplify the title a little bit, all right, Uh, okay, Jim,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: tell everybody about why we What you sent in the
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: I thought was so interesting that I wanted you to
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: come on and tell us more about it. Yeah. I
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: wrote an article for Dear Deer Hunting magazine last year
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: on specifically UM human health and lead bullet fragments and
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: and shot pellets in in game meat. And I started
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: getting interested in that because I felt like there were
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of peer reviewed scientific paper, a lot of
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: magazine articles, a lot of banter about um the dangers
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: of using lead bullets and and lead shot to human
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: health specifically. And the more I looked into it, the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: more into the science itself, the more confusing it was.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: It doesn't look like that the science was there to
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: support some of the statements that that I had seen.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: And so UM, there's there's a lot of reasons why
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: you might want to switch to uh, non lead bullets,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: for sure. I mean there's there there's impacts just individuals.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: We're getting individual raptors and and bird sick um populations.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: There could be some population effects. Certainly, Condor is absolutely
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: a population level effect because they're an endangered species, and
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: and lead is really a serious conservation issue with their recovery.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: But also you can think about what about hunter image
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: when someone's showing this bald eagle that's getting sick from
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: um some bullet fragments that got in a in a
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: gut pile. And some people talk about the threat of litigation.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: If hunters don't take charge of this issue um of
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: switching to non lead bullets, there's gonna be litigation that's
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: gonna force it, and and not on their terms. And
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: so there's a lot of reasons why we can talk
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: about the value of lead bullets and non lead bullets,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: but one of those topics or sub topics is human health.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: And and I think there's this is a case where
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: scientists always trying to keep their advocacy out of science
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: and just report their science and just do good, solid research.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: But it's difficult in some cases that it seemed to
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: me like someone's advocacy for switching having hunters switched from
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: lead bullets to non lead bullets was really kind of
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: driving some of their research results. And so it's there's
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: nothing wrong with advocacy, but we should have science driving
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: the advocacy. We should have good science, and then we
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: should advocate for what's right. Isn't that refreshing when it
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: would be when you when you read when you see
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: that the biologist paper, that is like, here are the
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: facts and there is no there's no bias that you
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: can perceive, there's no advocacy. Um. It is so so refreshing. Um. Yeah,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: And and there's a great good science and you can
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: advocate for for what's right. But a lot of times
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: people have this endgame and that advocacy paints their science.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: So the right of scientific paper, they'll have the results
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: of what the results found, and then the last part
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: of the paper is generally like discussion or management implications,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: and there they have a little more latitude. And I
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: was seeing um papers where people would talk about lead
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: being dangerous to human health, and it certainly is, We've
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: known that for for thousands of years. But they cite
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: medical literature that talks about lead in um elevated blood
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: lead levels, but from other sources. People aren't talking about
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: actual how dangerous is it to take bullet fragments in
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: and adjust bullet fragments once in a while, or lead pellets.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: Are talking about paint chips and they're talking about lead gasoline,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: and they're saying, you know, we got to let out
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: of paint, we got to let out of gasoline. Um,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: why wouldn't we get to let out of bullets. But
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: what's really important, the distinction is really important is that
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: there's different forms of lead. And the metallic lead that
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: we use for bullets is different than the lead that
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: you find in in paint and the lead that you
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: find in gasoline, and they lead you find a lot
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: of other things. The metallic lead actually is is not
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: very easily absorbed in your digestive system or through your skin.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: But there's a whole bunch of other uh lead, some
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: soluble organic lead compounds that do absorb through your skin rapidly.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: They do absorb through your lung tissues if it's an
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: aerosol or if you ingest that they go into your
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: blood stream pretty quick. But those are different than lead bullets, lead,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: metallic lead, and those organic lead compounds are found in
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: in like dryers for varnish. There use sometimes in plastic
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: molds to to kind of help set the mold. There
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: in um clutch pads and brake pads we we in
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: In two thousand nine, there was seven hundred thousand metric
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: tons of lead. Mind in the US alone, we use
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of lead for a lot of things. Ammunition
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: batteries are big things, but there's a whole bunch of
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: of uh also organic lead compounds which are used in
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: all kinds of different things um and as chemicals. And
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: it's those organic compounds are really easily absorbed in the skin,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: and so that's the lead that we need to make
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: sure we reduce our exposure to. The metallic lead. It's
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: really not that easy to get your blood levels elevated
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: just from adjusting metallic lead. And that's why is a
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: really big difference. But why, okay, what is the difference
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: between a condor who is getting it from metallic lead
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: and a human? Like, why does it affect him and
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: it doesn't affect us? Yeah, that's a bird and mammal difference.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: So mammals, it's not really an issue. You don't you
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: don't see, you don't hear about lead poisoning so much
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: in in wildlife and mammals and our our wild creatures.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: But birds have a gizzard, and so birds and birds
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: also will take little pieces of grit and sand and
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: swallow it with their food. With their seeds, and then
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: that muscular gizzard grinds and grinds and grinds, and so
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: when they adjust lead pellets or lead fragments from a bullet,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: that grinding really agitates that and and kind of grind
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: some of the metallic out. So the bird digestis system
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: is different than the mammal digestive system. And there's also
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: there's also differences in species too, because the condor is
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: really susceptible lead poisoning. The turkey vulture, they almost can't
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: kill it with lead poisoning. They've taken captive turkey vultures
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: and just fed it lead constantly, and after like six
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: months they killed them and did a necropsy and and
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: don't see any evidence of problems with lead poisoning. So
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: there's also species differences within similar species, but the big
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: differences the bird digestive system and the mammal digestive system
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: is way different. Humans will pass the meal through their
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: whole digestive system in twenty four to seventy two hours,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: and it only spends four or five hours in the stomach,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: in the acidic stomach. So when you think about ingesting
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: a little piece of metallic lead, which is not very
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: soluble and and doesn't go into the bud stream very easily.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: And it's sitting for five hours in the stomach and
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: it's out of the digestive system in a day or two.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: That's not a lot of time for that that metal
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: to actually be absorbed to the tissues. Can you walk
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: can you walk people through? Um? You know, I know
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: you weren't involved as from a policy standpoint, but but
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: can you walk people through how it came to be
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: that waterfowl hunting made the switch? Like I believe in
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: the in the late seventies early eighties, Like, like, did
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: they were they addressing a real problem in your view?
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: When when they banned lead from waterfowl? And how are
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: the ducks getting hurt by it? Yeah, lead poison showed
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: up in waterfowl and I wasn't involved in that at all,
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: But but from what I've read and talking to other people,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: there's some people I know that were involved in all
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: of that. Um, the ducks were showing up with lead poisoning,
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: and of course it takes a couple of weeks to
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: kill bird, and so it's a long um, it's a
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: long process where they suffer, but it's my understanding that
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: it was litigation um anchored to the ball Legal Act
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: and in protection of ball legals that were on the
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: endangered species list at the time, And there was litigation
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 1: because these ball legals were showing up after eating ducks,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: showing up with lead poison. So it wasn't a duck
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: population issue. There's a small percentage of the duck population
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: that was affected. It was I think this nexus with
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: the endangered species acting bald eagles. That's why I understand
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: it from those people that were involved in that. Yeah,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: you know, I have a couple of times in my life. Um,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 1: it was in Wyoming when I happened most recently, actually
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: did find steel shot in a duck s gizzard where
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: that duck and picking up grit, had managed to pick
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: up and consume uh steel shot, which is totally safe
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: for the bird. But in the old days that would
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: have been you know lead can can you walk? Can
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: you walk people through the difference when you're saying like
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: that it leads to bird mortality and then population level
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: like like talk about that distinction, right, And that's the
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: that's the big thing people talk about, um, the effects
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 1: of lead on wild life and they tend to just
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 1: put it all in this big cauldron and kind of
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: talk about it. But it's a really complex issue. You
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: need to talk separately about um about individual birds dying.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: And we know that that eagles and hawks and and
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: um and condors will get lead bullet fragments and they
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: will they will die from lead poison. And so certainly
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: we know the effects on individuals. But then people have said, well,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 1: is this really a population level effect? And I myself
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: used to say, well, it's not a population level effect.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: So we're talking about individuals, but we don't really know
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: if it was a population if we were having population
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: level effect on things like golden eagles. We don't do
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: annual surveys. We don't We don't really have a lot
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: of good data to know how lead might be affecting
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: golden eagles. I suspect there might be some valley where
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of people rabbit hunt or a lot of
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: people coil hunt, and golden eagles might be picking up
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: some lead, and it might be a local issue in
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: some places. But I've stopped saying it's not a population
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: level effect simply because I don't think we have enough
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: to make a blanket statement like that, But I will
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: frequently say, is this, um Is this such an issue
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: with raptors and wild birds that every hunter needs a
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: switch in short order to non lead bullets? Is this?
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Is this a conservation issue that's serious enough that requires
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: our intervention to to right some wrong? And I think
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: that's I think that's a good question, and a lot
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: of people aren't talking specifically about that. But I like
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: to separate the effects of the individual, which no, we
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: know absolutely they die if they get too much lead,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: the effects of population. Is this really a conservation level
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: issue that people in in our profession need to be
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: fixing um? Or is it more of a local thing
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: that happens at a low level and it's just kind
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: of absorbed into the natural mortality. I mean, I always
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 1: get hit by cars all the time, howls once in
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: a while, pick up some lead and die. So this
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: is this of great importance that we need to actually
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: act and and get people to switch. And and I'm
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: not an advocate of of not switching, and I'm not
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: an advocate of switching within the next couple of years.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: I I have my family. We've switched about ten years ago.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: And I shoot nothing but all all copper, all copper
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: rifle bullets with all of our rifle hunting. And I
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: do that because I like the clean wound channel. If
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: you get off and you hit into a muscle group
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: you've got with a copper bullet, you've got a hole
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: through the muscle group. Um. And and I like the accuracy,
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: and I like the how clean it shoots, and and
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: it's really kind of a meat loss issue with me
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: using copper bullets. But everybody really has to make their
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: up their own mind if they're if they're concerned that
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: their bullet might might kill a raptor on their property
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: or somewhere out there, they may choose a switch that
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: may be enough for them. UM. But I think the
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: conversation has a center around impacts the individuals, impact to
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: populations to the level that uh, professional need to take
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: action and fix something that that's broken. Um. When you
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: talk about human health separately, but we also need to
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: talk about the impact the hunter image. That's a real
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: issue that we should talk about. And then some people
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: claim that litigations coming down the road if we don't
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 1: do something. So it's such a it's such a multifaceted
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: topic that when you throw it all in together, it
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: gets it gets really confusing. Yeah, it's funny because it's
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: it's sorry calibhood. Well, I would like to see just
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 1: more data. You know. The big game is an interesting
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: one and and this is a topic that it's it's
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: a really good topic. It's so especially when you want
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: to have that individual versus population effect and then you
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: can kind of bring it together at the California condor
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: where it's like, well enough, individual loss on such a
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: small population is a population level effect and you could
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 1: get to this point where and individual affects the population,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: you know. So it's a it's a great topic. My
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: myself like having not like seriously pursued upland birds for
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: a long time. This year, I mean I saw more
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: wounded animals than I have in the last fifteen years
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: this year, and they were all upland birds, you know,
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: like wild roosters getting shot and we just could not
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: find the things. UM hunting South Dakota. We hunted, uh,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: you know, probably a good three and a half four
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: hour walk on you know, big chunk of public access
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: ground and I found three dead roosters out there, you know,
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: on different levels of decomposition. UM but just you know,
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: the range of hungarian partridge with one little leg leg
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: hanging as they fly a mile off into the distance, UM,
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: and just not being able to recover those animals. That
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: is where the you know. And and just like early
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: in Montana, you can hit like those raptor migrations through October,
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: and there are so many raptors around And for me,
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: I just I knew there were other predators out there
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: with their eyes on that crippled bird at some point,
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: you know. And and sure, and the mammals you don't
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: need to worry about, but those raptors, especially when you
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: get a migration coming through, if there's a lot of
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: wounded birds in an area, they're certainly picking those up
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: and they're they're going to get sick from that. It's
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: all about the nuance. It's all about, well, really, how
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: many of those uh animals are out and available for
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: raptors to see them and and actually get consumed, how
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: many raptors are in the area, what percent of the
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: raptor population is being affected. They've they've just in the
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: course of doing different research projects on on hawks and eagles,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: they've drawn blood samples every time they capture an eagle
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: and then analyze those for blood to see if they're
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: picking it up. And they've documented that during the hunting season,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: that that raptor blood levels, that the lead level in
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: the blood go up during the hunting season and then
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: they drop off after the hunting season. They've shown hunted
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: areas and non hunted areas and showing differences in lead exposure,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: and so there's no doubt that raptors are getting birded
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: just exactly that way and their blood lead levels are elevated.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: The conversation I think should center around um it is
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: that causing morbidity or mortality. Is that impacting them in
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: such a way that it's um It's such a serious
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: issue that that something, you know, dramatic needs to be
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: done when we talk about advocating all hunters switching to
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: non let animal, For me, it matters because I want
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: to know what I'm killing um and that the population
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: level argument kind of goes out the window because I
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: just want to know what I killed. And so then
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like, okay, one lead bullet through an ELK carcass.
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: Let's say you hit it a little bit back and
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: there's a bunch of lead fragments in in the paunch
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: and that's what's left out there. What's the effect of that? Like,
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: how much are you killing with that versus a season
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: of upland bird hunting and you have, you know, these
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: smaller meals out there that are probably more likely to
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: contain lead than a well placed shot in my opinion
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: on on a big game animal. Um. And that stuff
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: just was constantly going through my head head this season.
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: But if you walk four strand barbed wire fence long enough,
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: you're gonna see raptor deaths on that four strand barbedwire fence,
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: wheel lines, power lines. Um. These birds are are are
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: definitely dying from a lot of man made stuff out there,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: and we still have them around. Yeah. This this is
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: where it gets. This is where the subject gets like
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: hard for me to sort out. Is that on one hand,
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: I see places where people within the industry get really
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: uneasy when people start having a conversation that we're having
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: right now, because they would they would prefer that no
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: one talked about it because uh, you know, um, it's
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: sort of like a taboo subject because you're pointing out
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: some kind of problem with how everybody does things better.
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: Just shut up about it. We're gonna get regulations that
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: we don't want. Like you hear that from people. On
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: the other hand, UM and I and I, and that
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: gets my hackles up a little bit, like this sort
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: of idea that you need to censor um, real conversations
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: about trying to find out information and put a plan
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: together and have an open discussion about something like I
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: think that's important to do that. On the other hand,
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: lead works really well. Let us inexpensive lead is widely available. Uh,
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of non lead ammunition is
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: is like limited in abundance. It can be very expensive.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: It's like, I don't want to see that level like
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: that kind of onerous. Um. I don't want to see
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: that kind of onerous regulations put in on people and
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: have everybody need to spend more money, have ammunition be
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: more limited. But I also realized that we're gonna have
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: to probably talk about this stuff and figure out things
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: we can do in order to head off getting forced
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: into a place where you're gonna wind up in just
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: that situation like you did in certain areas well. I
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: think now pretty soon all of California where's just like
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: you're not allowed to use lad Man, California, July from
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: July twenty nine, and all of California is not let
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: So we're we're gonna have to, like as a community,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: start talking about it and start thinking it and hopefully
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: land somewhere where we're in the driver's seat and how
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: we're gonna proceed less like you're saying, Um, we lose
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: our seat at the table and and and land in
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: a place where we could have done a lot better
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: had we been a little more proactive about it. Yeah,
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I don't know the answer, man.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: My opinion about all these complex about this whole complex topic,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: my opinions are kind of all over the map. I'm
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: because I see all of like you're just saying, I
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: i'd see all of the pros and the cons and
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: and I'm not on one side or the other when
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: it comes specifically to human health. That I wrote the
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: article about human health. Um, I think there's people using
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: human health as a hammer because that there and I've
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: heard people tell me that's very effective. One person told
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: me at the wild of Society and Albuquerque had a
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: m a symposium on wildlife and and lead and one
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: guy at the break tell me. Sometimes, he says, what's
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: most effective is we show up to the check stations,
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: the deer check stations, especially if there's a wife or
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: a girlfriend there, we start talking to her about how
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: do you know that your your husband, your boyfriend's poisoning
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: you with lead, you know, meat, and they and they
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: were laughing, saying that that is really the most effective way,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: because I guarantee that guy is not using lead next year.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 1: And so you see the human health um as a
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: as an exaggeration for the true risk that it provides
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: the humans. That's what I really have a problem with,
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: this other stuff about the individual versus population and pending
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: litigation and the image of hunters. I just I see
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and I haven't worked through it
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: all myself and where I stand and all that. Oh yeah, Jim,
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: you know, I know exactly what we're talking about, and I
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: I know we drifted from it a little bit. But sure, man,
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: I've seen that. I've seen people like I've seen raptor
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: people um switch and and want to talk about human
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: health because they're driving at something with raptors. I think
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: one of the most like weirdest versions I've seen of
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: this is there's this group that's always been opposed to
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: wildlife markets. They're having a heyday with COVID where they're
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: acting like we always knew. They used to oppose wildlife
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: markets because they're trading an endangered species. Now they've switched
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: their hotelality. Wildlife markets are bad because of the disease issue,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: and it's like, well, you're using the disease issue to
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 1: get where you want it to land before. You're using
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: this as a new tool to to to win your
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: old war. I don't like to see that either, man,
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: Like I don't like when I don't like when people
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: do that. It's like, be intellectually honest, you know. And
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 1: I've looked at it, to man, and I've and I've
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: always been a little suspicious of the human health thing.
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: I first got interested in it when I had high
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: lead levels in my garden and that led me to
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: reading about you know, how to lead get there? How
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: does it? How does it move? What? How does what
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: impacts does it have on people? And I've often, uh
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: looked at that and thought about that these like chunks
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: of bullet lead passing through your system, it's just not
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: the same thing. Is some of these ways in which
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: people are getting led from inhalation and other issues. Yeah,
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: and that's what the title of my article was, Great
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 1: toxin or red herring. And that's what a red herring
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: is is when you're you're you're arguing one thing, but
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: that's not really what you're interested in. You may be
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: arguing about human health, but you're really interested in rapt
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: or mortality. I don't know if you've ever talked about
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: talk to your wife about something and you're disagreeing, and
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 1: you suddenly realize that what you're arguing about isn't really
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: what she's was with the problem is it's really something else,
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: and you end up arguing about something else. And so
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: I think people find what's the what's going to be
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: the most effective message, and they they gravitate to that.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: And and my message is just let's be honest, let's
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: talk about all these different facets of this topic. And
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: when we talk about human health, let's talk about lead
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 1: fragments and and um and shot and how that really
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 1: can translate to problems with human health because that connection,
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: the connection is not very strong. There's there are some
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 1: cases where people there's a guy in in that living
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: in the bush in New Zealand, I think. And he
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: was eating meat bush meat that he was shooting with
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 1: lead bullets, and he was eating every day, so he
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: basically had lead in his digestive system every day of
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: the year. And they tested his blood and it was
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: it was skyrocketed with lead levels. And then there was
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: a case of the Inuit community up in Greenland that
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: was that was eating a lot of sea ducks that
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: were shot with with lead pellets. And so they asked
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: how often do you eat sea ducks because they had
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of lead pellets in them, And those that
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: eight sea ducks once a week or less were below
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: the center for these control um limit for for a
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: danger zone. And those that as they approached one sea
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: duck approached daily consumption of sea ducks, they're lead levels.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: We're tend to seventeen above that CDC level of ten
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: ten to seventeen um. So, and so there are cases
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: where people basically have are eating lead every day or
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: pretty close to every day and it's always in their system.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: You can definitely have your blood lead levels up to
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: unhealthy levels for sure. The indiscriminate killing argument, right is
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: the one that kills me Like I'm like there's just nothing.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: I guess you could argue that you just randomly decided that, yeah,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna shoot that buck, but that's not the way
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: I see it. For or, I do a lot of
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: looking looking over animals before I pull the trigger. And uh,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just like a long way past uh sitting out
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: and going through a brick of two m oh shooting
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: ground squirrels just don't do that anymore, having a long
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: long time, And so that's why I'm always like, oh shit,
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: that bird that's sailing off with one leg hanging down?
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: Is that a dead raptor? Like did I just kill
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: something that I didn't intend to kill? Like I'm okay
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: with the little bit of wound loss over the course
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: of a season, Like I've mentally set myself up for that, uh,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: for these birds, but I'm not quite mentally set up
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: to say, yep, that is a prairie falcon or something
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 1: else that is just badass that's out there. So if
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: you started shooting your upland birds with steel, I finally
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: got ahold of some bismuth. It took me a long
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 1: time to get get ahold of bismus. But I mean,
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: and that's exactly what you're talking about, Steve. That bismuth
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: is expansive. Stuff makes you think about pulling the trigger.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: My god, has that stuff work though? Man, it doesn't work.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: I just bought some. I bought some Federal Premium TSS
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: for turkey hunting because it's so amazingly effective, and I
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: just I just spent on five shot gun hills. That's
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: that tungsten t SS. You gotta line up, you gotta
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: line up their heads, make sure you're getting getting miss
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: turkey the first time. And so it costs me thirty
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: eight dollars for him to shoot a turkey when he
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: had a second thing. You know, it's nice to you'll
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: see Jim with those ts s. I don't know if
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: you already hunted it with them, uh last season, but
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: you know, if they're so dense and so heavy that
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: even if you your patterns a little bit low and
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: you hit that breast, they tend to just whistle through
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: that whole bird and you don't end up having, you know,
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: shot stuck in the breast. Yeah up. I shot my
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: Gould's last year with TSS about forty yards and the
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: pattern was pretty dense. I actually messed up the tail
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: fan because there's just so much. I'm using sevens and
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: nine together and kind of messed up the tail fan.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: But my son killed a Miriam last year at at
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: sixty yards laser range finders sixty yards with a twelve
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 1: games with TSS. It's amazing. Oh man, No, I'm getting
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: all worked up for turkey hunting. I've been trying to
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: not think about turkey season alright, Jim dude, thanks a
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: lot for coming on. Sorry you couldn't be like normal
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 1: where you come up in the studio. But we gotta
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: get through this, Uh, get through this pandemic. It's killing me. Yeah,
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: I mean not literally killing me, it's literally killing some people. Um.
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 1: You gotta get those vaccines rolling out. Get everybody back together, um,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: Mr Jim, thank you, appreciate you coming on. Cal Yanni,
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: Brody Crane, Phil, thanks a lot, Thank you, easy, good luck,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: stay well, we'll see each other later. Take are like