Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 'CESSPOOL PRINCESS' Had 2 Bottles of Wine & DRUGS When Shoved Voice Coach, 87, to her Death, Says Defense

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'CESSPOOL PRINCESS' Had 2 Bottles of Wine & DRUGS When Shoved Voice Coach, 87, to her Death, Says Defense · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.
0:14
Speaker 2: The so called Cesspool Princess, twenty seven year old Lauren Pazienza.
0:22
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember her name, because I'll
0:24
Speaker 2: never forget it. Accused of shoving an eighty seven year
0:31
Speaker 2: old beloved voice coach, a voice teacher to the.
0:36
Speaker 3: Sidewalk she died.
0:38
Speaker 2: Now has a defense, and the defense is, oh, she
0:43
Speaker 2: didn't know what she was doing. She had two bottles
0:46
Speaker 2: of wine, drugs and a ton of weed.
0:50
Speaker 3: That's the defense.
0:53
Speaker 2: This while her defense lawyer, high profile lawyer Author Idolla,
0:57
Speaker 2: claims his client is a overcharged you know what I
1:02
Speaker 2: said to that? Now this is a technical legal term
1:04
Speaker 2: bs bs.
1:07
Speaker 3: I'mancy Grayson. This is Crime Stories.
1:10
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and
1:12
Speaker 2: series XEM one eleven. The gall of saying she's innocent.
1:19
Speaker 2: She's not guilty because she had two bottles of wine,
1:24
Speaker 2: drugs and a quote ton of weed. Take a listen
1:29
Speaker 2: to our friends a crime online.
1:31
Speaker 4: The attorney for New York City's sidewalk shover Lauren Posienza,
1:35
Speaker 4: claims the spoiled socialite was a drunk and high mess
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Speaker 4: the night she allegedly pushed legendary Broadway singing coach Barbara Augustrin,
1:43
Speaker 4: causing the eighty seven year old to fall and later
1:46
Speaker 4: die from her injuries. Posienza's defense attorney, Arthur Idalla, standing
1:50
Speaker 4: outside the Manhattan Criminal Court room, said, quote, she had drugs,
1:54
Speaker 4: maybe two bottles of wine and a ton of marijuana. Unquote.
1:58
Speaker 4: Posienza's facing charges of man's and assault for the unprovoked
2:01
Speaker 4: attack on Gustern. After Pasienza allegedly shoved her, the eighty
2:05
Speaker 4: seven year old legend fell and hit her head. She
2:07
Speaker 4: died five days later from those injuries. The twenty seven
2:10
Speaker 4: year old has been held at Riker's Island, but her
2:13
Speaker 4: lawyer said she's close to agreeing to a plea deal.
2:16
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I don't know why this
2:18
Speaker 2: case should not go to trial. And this young woman,
2:21
Speaker 2: well she's not that young. She's twenty seven years old,
2:23
Speaker 2: old enough to know better. Shouldn't get the max. The
2:27
Speaker 2: victim in this case, Barbara Mayor Gustern, was not just
2:33
Speaker 2: a legend in the singing industry. She's a beloved mother
2:39
Speaker 2: and grandmother. Joining me right now in addition to an
2:43
Speaker 2: all star panel is her grandson aj Aj Mayor Gustern.
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Speaker 2: Aj thank you for being with us.
2:51
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.
2:53
Speaker 2: I hope you had already heard of the defense, and
2:57
Speaker 2: I definitely put that in air quotes. Don't want to
3:00
Speaker 2: be the one to tell you to break it to
3:02
Speaker 2: you that the defense in this case is that she
3:05
Speaker 2: the defendant, the cesspool princess as she is called, and
3:09
Speaker 2: she gets that name. I think Tony di Stefano is
3:12
Speaker 2: with us from Newsday. Tony, doesn't she get the name
3:15
Speaker 2: cesspool princess? She gets it because her father is a
3:18
Speaker 2: millionaire that digs septic tanks and all sorts of related
3:24
Speaker 2: products and services.
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Speaker 6: That's correct. He has a business on Long Island, and
3:29
Speaker 6: you know it's basically a cesspool cleaning and maintenance business.
3:33
Speaker 6: And I suppose he's done pretty well. He's got a
3:36
Speaker 6: nice home and port. Jeff So poor Jefferson. So you
3:41
Speaker 6: know that's where that's where she gets that Moniker.
3:45
Speaker 2: Well, the reality is is she has been given everything
3:48
Speaker 2: in life on a silver platter. Advantages, schools, vacations, clothes
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Speaker 2: most people could only dream up. And this is what happened.
4:00
Speaker 2: Back to AJ Mayor Gustern, this is Barbara Gustern's grandson, AJ.
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Speaker 2: What do you make of the defense that she should
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Speaker 2: somehow get leniency because she had had two bottles of wine, drugs,
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Speaker 2: and a quote ton of weed the night that she
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Speaker 2: shoved your grandmother to her death.
4:19
Speaker 5: Sure, I have been following this case quite closely, and
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Speaker 5: I think it's interesting actually that her father recently seems
4:26
Speaker 5: to have changed the name of his business. I think
4:29
Speaker 5: the business have their name in it, and they've since
4:31
Speaker 5: changed it. But I think the defense is completely ridiculous,
4:36
Speaker 5: you know. I think in particular, I saw a mention
4:40
Speaker 5: of xanax, and anybody who's prescribed xanx should know that
4:46
Speaker 5: when you mix it with alcohol, it leads to aggression. Rights.
4:50
Speaker 5: It's a common thing of xanx, and I know plenty
4:54
Speaker 5: of other people who have taken, you know, a little
4:57
Speaker 5: bit of wine and weed and not done this. So
5:01
Speaker 5: people do it every day. It's completely ridiculous that she
5:04
Speaker 5: would resort to this.
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Speaker 3: A Jay.
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Speaker 2: Were you with your grandmother till the end.
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Speaker 5: I was, I was holding her hand right when she passed.
5:12
Speaker 2: I read about that, and it just brings to mind
5:16
Speaker 2: being in the hospital room beside my dad when he
5:20
Speaker 2: passed away, and I'll never forget that, just sitting in
5:25
Speaker 2: the room after he had already gone to heaven and
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Speaker 2: wondering why that had to happen. It was exact same
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Speaker 2: age as your grandma. And when I hear this woman's
5:39
Speaker 2: lawyer claimed she was quote overcharged and that she should
5:44
Speaker 2: not be held accountable because she was drunk and high.
5:49
Speaker 2: That's not working for me with me right now. You
5:52
Speaker 2: know him well, renowned former chief medical examiner in New
5:56
Speaker 2: York City, passed co director for New York State Police
6:00
Speaker 2: Medico Legal Investigations Unit, and author of American Autopsy, the
6:06
Speaker 2: famed doctor Michael Bodden is joining us. Doctor Bond, thank
6:10
Speaker 2: you for being with us. What idiot would mix drugs
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Speaker 2: weed and two bottles of wine.
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Speaker 7: Well, unfortunately there are a lot of such idiots around
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Speaker 7: the drink alcohol and use drugs much stronger than weed
6:27
Speaker 7: in our culture right now. But the kind of defense
6:31
Speaker 7: author Adala is a very good lawyer. I used to
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Speaker 7: work with him when I started out with his father.
6:40
Speaker 7: His father was one of the top homicide prosecutors in
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Speaker 7: the Manhattan District Attorney's Office that goes back a while
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Speaker 7: in the seventies in a while, and he is also
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Speaker 7: very good lawyer. But the defense doesn't have much merit.
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Speaker 7: It's not unreasonable if a defense lawyer doesn't have any
7:03
Speaker 7: better defense is to say, well, my client, my defendant
7:06
Speaker 7: was drunk, he'd been drinking before he shot his wife,
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Speaker 7: and he didn't really know what he's doing. And that
7:12
Speaker 7: may be partially true, that if you have a lot
7:14
Speaker 7: of alcohol you don't quite know what you're doing. But
7:17
Speaker 7: as soon as you start telling, you know when you're
7:19
Speaker 7: taking the alcohol, you know when you're taking the weed.
7:22
Speaker 7: And those are conscious decisions and they have consequences. And
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Speaker 7: I think for that reason usually always in my experience,
7:30
Speaker 7: because I've been a number of testimonies where the defense
7:36
Speaker 7: was the person didn't know what he was doing because
7:38
Speaker 7: it was on amphetamines, it was in drugs, he was
7:43
Speaker 7: most commonly on alcohol. And it never works because the
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Speaker 7: legal concept is it isn't just that you're not in
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Speaker 7: possession of all your faculties. It's because you knew that.
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Speaker 7: You should have known that when you started drinking the
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Speaker 7: alcohol in the first place.
8:00
Speaker 2: Doctor Biden guys with me, Doctor Michael Biden, you know
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Speaker 2: him well. You and I would spend many hours talking,
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Speaker 2: including Arthur Idolla, remember back at Court TV.
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Speaker 7: Yes, well, those were the days good times.
8:20
Speaker 2: So we've had many opportunities to question Arthur Idolla and
8:26
Speaker 2: he is a very very good lawyer. I guess it
8:31
Speaker 2: runs in the family because his father was a great prosecutor.
8:35
Speaker 2: But the reality is, and let me throw this to
8:37
Speaker 2: James Shellna joining me, high profile lawyer out of the
8:40
Speaker 2: Atlanta metro area with a shell Nut law firm, not
8:45
Speaker 2: just for now lawyer, but was with major case division.
8:50
Speaker 2: Swat James shell Nut. If the I was drunk defense
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Speaker 2: was legitimate, everybody in the Fulton County jail will be
8:59
Speaker 2: out right now. Everybody goes, yeah, I was drunk. That
9:03
Speaker 2: I mean the letter of the law, the black and
9:05
Speaker 2: white letter of the law is voluntary use of drugs
9:11
Speaker 2: or alcohol is not a defense under the law unless
9:16
Speaker 2: it can be proved the defendant was comatose, truly, truly
9:22
Speaker 2: blacked out. But that would require you to be laying out,
9:26
Speaker 2: flat out comentos.
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Speaker 3: This woman was not comotos.
9:30
Speaker 2: She was angry after a fight with her fiance, had
9:34
Speaker 2: a head of esteem, was drunk and high and using drugs.
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Speaker 2: According to her lawyer, she was anything but comatose.
9:40
Speaker 8: Oh, I agree hundred percent, Lou. That's a pretty high
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Speaker 8: hurdle to prove that you did not have the intent
9:48
Speaker 8: to commit a crime. You know, volunteer in tosxication is
9:50
Speaker 8: never a total defense to criminal charges, but volunteer intoxication
9:54
Speaker 8: can be used and can be argued under New York law.
9:58
Speaker 8: I've read the law on it this morning. It can
10:00
Speaker 8: be used to negate the element of intent for some crime.
10:05
Speaker 2: Can I just break that down because that was quite
10:08
Speaker 2: a mouthful. You sound like a law school professor in
10:10
Speaker 2: a first year of criminal law. Bottom line, it's never
10:15
Speaker 2: a defense. It's not a defense like this was an
10:17
Speaker 2: accident or self defense, which are both total defenses under
10:21
Speaker 2: the law. If you can prove a case of self
10:23
Speaker 2: defense or it was an accident, you're out, you walk free,
10:27
Speaker 2: you're acquitted, bam. But if you have diminished capacity, it
10:33
Speaker 2: can reduce a case from murder one to let's just say,
10:38
Speaker 2: voluntary manslaughter. Because James shell Nutt is pointing out, it
10:43
Speaker 2: can be argued that you had not complete control of
10:48
Speaker 2: your faculties. But from what we know that night, she
10:52
Speaker 2: knew exactly what she was doing because she tried to
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Speaker 2: cover her tracks. She hid out afterwards and even lied.
11:00
Speaker 2: But I want to put the focus back on Barbara
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Speaker 2: Mayor Gustin, who suffered before she finally passed away with
11:09
Speaker 2: her grandson Aj beside her when she died.
11:14
Speaker 3: Take a listen to Ida Seagull at NBC four.
11:18
Speaker 9: A single bouquet of flowers sits on twenty eighth Street
11:21
Speaker 9: tonight where Barbara Gustern was shoved to the ground last week. Today,
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Speaker 9: family announced that the beloved singer and renowned voice coach
11:29
Speaker 9: did not survive.
11:31
Speaker 10: Hearing about it made me feel like I got hit
11:32
Speaker 10: on in the head with the hammer.
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Speaker 9: On Barbara's Facebook page, her grandson posted a photo of
11:37
Speaker 9: him holding her hand in the hospital, writing today at
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Speaker 9: eleven fifteen am, We've lost one of the brightest little
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Speaker 9: flames to ever grace this world.
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Speaker 3: The tributes came pouring in.
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Speaker 11: She was so wonderful, She was encouraging, she was firm,
11:52
Speaker 11: She was the perfect teacher.
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Speaker 10: She was a sharp, clever you know, season first, and
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Speaker 10: you know, it's like she was amazing.
12:02
Speaker 9: Stephen Shanahan owns restaurant in Theater Pangaea, where Barbara had
12:06
Speaker 9: recently performed and where she had hoped to premiere a
12:09
Speaker 9: new cabaret show.
12:10
Speaker 10: They sang and they tell stories. It's very heart wine
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Speaker 10: and they've done several different shows here.
12:17
Speaker 2: That's who was killed, that's who was shoved to the sidewalk.
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Speaker 2: And AJ, isn't it true your grandmother Barbara did not
12:27
Speaker 2: know Lauren Pousienza at all.
12:29
Speaker 3: They were complete strangers.
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Speaker 5: They're complete strangers. Yeah. I think it's another telling thing
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Speaker 5: that she targeted my grandmother of all people. You know,
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Speaker 5: she didn't go after some two hundred pound guys. She
12:40
Speaker 5: went after my Bob, Bob, who god was older than
12:46
Speaker 5: she weighed, you.
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Speaker 7: Know, so.
12:51
Speaker 5: It's incomprehensible.
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Speaker 2: You know, you just really struck a nerve with me. AJ.
12:56
Speaker 2: My mother Elizabeth, who lives with us, she's going to
12:59
Speaker 2: be nine to God willing in December, and that's about
13:04
Speaker 2: what she weighs, no matter how much I try to
13:06
Speaker 2: feed her. And the thought of someone pushing my mother
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Speaker 2: to the sidewalk where your grandma hit her head and
13:18
Speaker 2: then died is unimaginable to me. The cruelty involved in that.
13:28
Speaker 2: I want to understand what happened. Guys, take a listen
13:31
Speaker 2: our cut eleven our friends at NBC four.
13:34
Speaker 11: This attack happened on March tenth on twenty eighth Street,
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Speaker 11: and Chelsea on Gustrin's Block. Detectives gave a surveillance from
13:41
Speaker 11: that night. They say that she stayed in the area
13:43
Speaker 11: for about a half an hour and left only after
13:45
Speaker 11: she saw an ambulance arrive. We now know that investigators
13:48
Speaker 11: tracked her movements through the subway when she met up
13:50
Speaker 11: with her fiance, all the way until they got to
13:53
Speaker 11: their apartment in Astoria.
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Speaker 5: I'd like to stress and is it until proven guilty?
13:57
Speaker 5: You know, if she did do this, would like answers.
14:01
Speaker 3: But this woman deserves her day in court.
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Speaker 11: Why if police know they aren't sharing that tonight they
14:06
Speaker 11: are telling us that the suspect cursed of the victim,
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Speaker 11: and before she died, the victim told police the push
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Speaker 11: was as hard as she's ever been hit in her life.
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Speaker 12: I feel very vulnerable. Look, I'm older and I have
14:17
Speaker 12: a keene that just squeams start up with me because
14:22
Speaker 12: I can't defend myself. I will to the death, but it,
14:26
Speaker 12: you know, it makes you feel like you have.
14:28
Speaker 3: A target on your back.
14:29
Speaker 2: And to show guilty conscious which can come into evidence
14:33
Speaker 2: your actions before, during, and after a crime. That evidence
14:38
Speaker 2: is overwhelming. Hiding out, leaving the same lying and deleting
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Speaker 2: all of her social media, stashing her cell phone.
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Speaker 3: Well, as a matter of fact, take on an our.
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Speaker 11: Cut ten our friend Erica Byfield the police detailing tonight
14:51
Speaker 11: how they say that she tried to evade capture for weeks.
14:54
Speaker 11: They tell us that she quit her job, deleted all
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Speaker 11: of our social media, got rid of her wedding website.
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Speaker 3: She was supposed to to get married in June.
15:01
Speaker 11: They also say that she stashed her cell phone at
15:04
Speaker 11: her aunt's house and then hid out at her parents'
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Speaker 11: house a Long Island. Midday Tuesday, we finally saw twenty
15:12
Speaker 11: six year old Lauren Pasienza, her hair draped over her face,
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Speaker 11: refusing to talk, just after police charged her with manslaughter,
15:19
Speaker 11: saying that she shoved and killed eighty seven year old
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Speaker 11: Barbara Augusterne. I think she was a crappy person. I mean,
15:25
Speaker 11: who goes around shoving an old woman. Gusterne was a
15:27
Speaker 11: beloved Broadway voice coach. She gave lessons to the greats.
15:31
Speaker 11: Her grandson is still trying to process losing her.
15:34
Speaker 3: And the arrest.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, there is a sense of closure.
15:37
Speaker 2: So if somebody is so drunk and high and on
15:41
Speaker 2: drugs that they had no idea what they were doing,
15:46
Speaker 2: Why did they hide out? Why did she delete all
15:50
Speaker 2: of her social media, and not only that, even thinking
15:55
Speaker 2: to use her fiance's transit card so movements could not
16:01
Speaker 2: be traced by police, including ditching her cell phone. Take
16:06
Speaker 2: us to our cut fourteen from our friends at Inside Edition.
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Speaker 13: Authority say, Pasienza and her fiance, who works for Microsoft,
16:14
Speaker 13: got into the subway at Penn Station. They transferred at
16:17
Speaker 13: Times Square and then took the train to their apartment
16:20
Speaker 13: in Queen's leaving a digital trail with the fiance's Metro card.
16:24
Speaker 13: Pasienza allegedly spent the next few hours taking down all
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Speaker 13: her social media and photos, including the website for her
16:32
Speaker 13: June wedding. Police say the day after Gustern died, Pasienza
16:36
Speaker 13: went into hiding at her parents Long Island home. She
16:39
Speaker 13: stayed there for two weeks. Meanwhile, she must have known
16:43
Speaker 13: that police were on her tail. They released video of
16:46
Speaker 13: her at the crime scene and plastered wanted posters across
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Speaker 13: the city. On Monday, two people who knew her well
16:52
Speaker 13: called in the tip. Detectives went to her parents' home.
16:56
Speaker 13: Her father reportedly told them she wasn't there, but wouldn't
17:00
Speaker 13: let them search the house. The next day, she knew
17:03
Speaker 13: it was over, and she turned herself in.
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Speaker 2: Now claiming she's too drunk, high and on drugs to
17:11
Speaker 2: know what she was doing, but she sure left a
17:14
Speaker 2: trail a mile wide and tried to cover her tracks.
17:18
Speaker 2: To Tony to Stephano, Tony, thank you for being with us,
17:21
Speaker 2: joining us on news Day, Tony, what do we know
17:26
Speaker 2: about what really happened the night that Barbara was pushed
17:31
Speaker 2: ultimately to her death.
17:33
Speaker 6: Well from the police reports, from the criminal complaint and
17:38
Speaker 6: indictment in the case, we know that they had Lauren
17:43
Speaker 6: and her boyfriend were having drinks in a park. She
17:47
Speaker 6: was drinking a lot. From what I understand, they were
17:50
Speaker 6: told to leave the park by a park worker because
17:53
Speaker 6: it was obviously late.
17:55
Speaker 2: She got angry, hold on Tony to Stephano, got angry
18:00
Speaker 2: about what what she got cut off from Booze. But okay,
18:05
Speaker 2: right right there, right there, Tony DeStefano is joining us
18:10
Speaker 2: from Newsday newspaper. But Tony, as much as I respect you,
18:13
Speaker 2: I love everything you write. I got to go to
18:17
Speaker 2: a shrink right now because I don't get it. It's
18:19
Speaker 2: like you're at a bar and they blink the light say,
18:21
Speaker 2: and you get mad and throw a chair because you
18:23
Speaker 2: have to stop drinking and leave.
18:36
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Greese.
18:42
Speaker 2: Doctor Angela Arnold's psychiatrist is joining us. You can find
18:45
Speaker 2: her at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, help me,
18:50
Speaker 2: because I don't understand the getting angry when you have
18:54
Speaker 2: to stop drinking and go home and go to sleep.
18:56
Speaker 3: Why would that make you angry, Nancy.
18:58
Speaker 14: I think that that shows us the inside workings of
19:04
Speaker 14: this girl's mind. No one ever tells her what to do,
19:09
Speaker 14: and if they do, she never has a consequence. And
19:13
Speaker 14: if they tell her what to do, she acts badly
19:16
Speaker 14: like this. That's why she got mad. Because you know what, Nancy,
19:21
Speaker 14: she hasn't lived under the regular rules of other people.
19:26
Speaker 14: And that's the part of all of this that we
19:29
Speaker 14: need to look at. They keep saying that she's a
19:32
Speaker 14: girl of privilege and all of this, Nancy, she hasn't
19:36
Speaker 14: lived like other people have lived.
19:38
Speaker 2: Hold On, I'm looking at a picture of her right
19:41
Speaker 2: now on a family vacation as a teen. She's got
19:45
Speaker 2: on like a leopard skin micro bikini beside a pool
19:53
Speaker 2: with palm trees in the background, and the caption says
19:56
Speaker 2: appears to have lived a life of privilege and later
19:58
Speaker 2: glamour in New York's these high society.
20:02
Speaker 3: What does that mean?
20:03
Speaker 14: What that means is she's been doted upon and she's
20:06
Speaker 14: had everything given to her at times in her life
20:10
Speaker 14: that she shouldn't have had them.
20:12
Speaker 2: Whoa wait a minute, is this her standing in front
20:14
Speaker 2: of a Porsche? Look at those pictures I sent you, Jackie.
20:18
Speaker 2: Is that her in front of a Porsche? Do Stephano?
20:20
Speaker 2: Does she drive a Porsche?
20:22
Speaker 6: I have no idea what you drove.
20:24
Speaker 2: I'm looking right out of picture and she's got car
20:27
Speaker 2: key it looks like car keys in her hands, and
20:29
Speaker 2: she's pointing toward a Porsche.
20:30
Speaker 5: I mean, I think all you really need to look at, right,
20:33
Speaker 5: is she posted a five hundred thousand dollars bail, which
20:36
Speaker 5: is ten times more than the average American family makes
20:39
Speaker 5: in a year, to avoid deal for a month. I'd
20:42
Speaker 5: be curious to see how much her family has donated
20:45
Speaker 5: to the soup kitchen that my grandmother went to that
20:48
Speaker 5: she was murdered across the street front.
20:50
Speaker 2: Guys, you're hearing the voice of Barbara's grandson, who was
20:55
Speaker 2: with her to the end, who was holding her hand
21:00
Speaker 2: when she went to heaven because of this woman drunk
21:06
Speaker 2: high on drugs with a silver spoon still clenched between
21:10
Speaker 2: her teeth for no reason, angry because she was cut
21:15
Speaker 2: off drinking in the park and takes it out on
21:19
Speaker 2: an eighty.
21:19
Speaker 3: Seven year old woman. And you heard.
21:22
Speaker 2: Ajsay that's about as much as she weighed. She didn't
21:25
Speaker 2: go shove a three hundred pound musclebound guy that just
21:29
Speaker 2: left the gym.
21:30
Speaker 3: She picked on an eighty seven year old.
21:33
Speaker 2: Literally, little old lady, a little old lady like my mother.
21:40
Speaker 2: Oh oh hgbl No, this woman does not need a
21:45
Speaker 2: sweetheart plea deal. Hey doctor Angie, what were you saying
21:49
Speaker 2: before somebody very rudely cut you off? Oh it was me, Sorry,
21:53
Speaker 2: go ahead, what were you saying me?
21:54
Speaker 14: See this people should listen to this story and see
22:01
Speaker 14: and think about what privilege and saving your kids from
22:05
Speaker 14: things and not showing your kids consequences. This is what
22:09
Speaker 14: it leads to. This is the kind of behavior it
22:14
Speaker 14: leads to. And I want to point out something else.
22:16
Speaker 14: Everyone is stating that she was drunk and high. How
22:20
Speaker 14: do we know that, Nancy, she might drink like this
22:23
Speaker 14: on a regular basis. She might not have been touched
22:26
Speaker 14: face by this alcohol. She wasn't drunk like I would
22:30
Speaker 14: be drunk if I had two glasses of wine. Okay,
22:34
Speaker 14: she may do this every day, so let's not say
22:36
Speaker 14: she was drunk because we don't know that. Because as
22:39
Speaker 14: you said, as you pointed out, she knew exactly what
22:44
Speaker 14: to do after this happened. Okay, she knew exactly what
22:49
Speaker 14: to do.
22:49
Speaker 2: According to reports, she was told the part was closing
22:52
Speaker 2: and she had to quit drinking and leave. She became enraged,
22:57
Speaker 2: and she charged Barbara Gustern on the street, shoving the
23:03
Speaker 2: eighty seven year old lady to the ground and calling
23:07
Speaker 2: your grandmother a bitch. She called your grandmother a bitch?
23:15
Speaker 2: Why why did she do that? And then stood there
23:19
Speaker 2: and watched as an ambulance crew took your grandma away
23:24
Speaker 2: with blood seeping from her head. And now then spending
23:30
Speaker 2: the next two weeks hiding and covering her trail, and
23:34
Speaker 2: now she wants leniency. Joseph jack Alone joining me, former
23:40
Speaker 2: NYPD sergeant, author of the Cold Case Handbook and The
23:45
Speaker 2: Criminal Investigative Function, The Guide for a New Investigator's fourth edition.
23:51
Speaker 2: That means it's been published three times before. Joseph thank
23:55
Speaker 2: you for being with us. This is your backyard. What
23:58
Speaker 2: do you have to say about prosecuteators allegedly offering her
24:01
Speaker 2: a sweetheart deal?
24:02
Speaker 15: Well, it's quite interesting because I look at it from
24:05
Speaker 15: the law enforcement perspective that you could have probably added.
24:07
Speaker 6: On some charges.
24:08
Speaker 15: I mean, when you choose an eighty seven year old,
24:11
Speaker 15: there are statutes in New York City that you could
24:13
Speaker 15: even make a claim that they could have been even
24:17
Speaker 15: a hate crime.
24:18
Speaker 6: So you know, she called them her name.
24:22
Speaker 15: That's something that you have to, you know, to look
24:24
Speaker 15: further into. I mean, listen, prosecutors and defense attorneys do
24:28
Speaker 15: what they do, right, So prosecutors most of the cases
24:31
Speaker 15: that they leave them out, they rarely go to trial.
24:34
Speaker 15: And I'm sure I know you have a lawyer on
24:35
Speaker 15: here in the panel today, and I'm sure you would
24:37
Speaker 15: agree with me on that, because you can't put every
24:39
Speaker 15: case in front of a jury.
24:41
Speaker 6: But you know, you have to look at the.
24:43
Speaker 15: And focus on what you do have. And the investigators
24:46
Speaker 15: did a great job here, you know, putting these things
24:49
Speaker 15: together with video surveillance, cell phone records, they might even
24:52
Speaker 15: have been Internet records, right. We know that the phone
24:55
Speaker 15: was found at the ant house, will probably fainted. They
24:58
Speaker 15: followed her throughout the entire system on the street through
25:01
Speaker 15: videos of veillance. So it goes to show you that
25:03
Speaker 15: painstaking detail to what the detectives had to go through
25:08
Speaker 15: was pretty amazing when you think about it.
25:10
Speaker 2: They put together a heck of a case. And my
25:12
Speaker 2: question is why plead it out. Take this thing to trial,
25:17
Speaker 2: get the max on this woman who shoves an eighty
25:20
Speaker 2: seven year old grandmother to the ground and call her
25:25
Speaker 2: a bitch and stand by and watch you be taken
25:28
Speaker 2: away in an ambulance instead of focusing on her, focusing
25:31
Speaker 2: on hiding for the next two weeks until one of
25:34
Speaker 2: her friends turn her in after spotting her on TV,
25:39
Speaker 2: seeing that subway, seeing the video of her. But I
25:44
Speaker 2: want you to hear more about what happened the night
25:48
Speaker 2: of the incident. Take a listen hour cut thirteen our
25:51
Speaker 2: friends at Inside Edition.
25:53
Speaker 16: We're learning more about the young woman accused of an
25:56
Speaker 16: unspeakable crime, shoving an elderly lady to her death for
26:00
Speaker 16: no reason, police say. Six minutes after the unprovoked attack,
26:05
Speaker 16: the suspect, twenty six year old Lauren Pazienza, walked back
26:09
Speaker 16: to the scene and watched an ambulance take away the
26:12
Speaker 16: elderly woman, eighty seven year old Barbara Gustern, a renowned
26:16
Speaker 16: singing coach.
26:17
Speaker 13: The suspect's high powered lawyer, Arthur Idallas, spoke to reporters
26:21
Speaker 13: after her arraignment and previewed what may be her defense.
26:25
Speaker 2: Whether it was a push, or whether it was a shove,
26:27
Speaker 2: or whether it was a kick, or whether someone tripped.
26:29
Speaker 2: The evidence is not very solid on.
26:31
Speaker 15: That at all.
26:32
Speaker 3: Police say.
26:33
Speaker 13: The victim remained conscious long enough to tell them her assailant,
26:36
Speaker 13: who she had never met before, crossed the street, then
26:39
Speaker 13: called her the B word and pushed her as hard
26:43
Speaker 13: as she had ever been hit in her life.
26:45
Speaker 2: Can you imagine calling your mother or your grandmother a bitch?
26:51
Speaker 2: Can you even imagine that? I mean aj aj mayor Gustern.
26:56
Speaker 2: This is Barbara Gustern's grandson, who stayed with her till
27:01
Speaker 2: the end. I just lost every chance of me believing
27:06
Speaker 2: anything the defense said is over by saying the word
27:11
Speaker 2: maybe she tripped bs. Your grandmother did not trip. Nobody tripped.
27:18
Speaker 3: What were her words to you about how hard she
27:22
Speaker 3: was shoved?
27:23
Speaker 5: Aj I actually wasn't present when I heard those words.
27:27
Speaker 5: She got back to her building after the attack, and
27:32
Speaker 5: the friends she was rehearsing with met her in the
27:34
Speaker 5: lobby and they were the one who heard her say
27:37
Speaker 5: that as she was called the B word and shoved
27:43
Speaker 5: as hard as she ever was in her life. And
27:45
Speaker 5: then she shortly lost consciousness when she got in the ambulance,
27:49
Speaker 5: and then I flew out the very next morning, and
27:52
Speaker 5: I didn't see her until I got in the hospital.
27:57
Speaker 5: The last time I talked to her was the Monday
27:59
Speaker 5: of that that week. And yeah, I've seen it, mister
28:07
Speaker 5: Idalla say other things like complying my grandmother had some
28:13
Speaker 5: kind of illness or disability, which is just ridiculous. At
28:17
Speaker 5: her age, she was still teaching voice all day, going
28:22
Speaker 5: out to shows. I mean, she was comfortable enough to
28:25
Speaker 5: go out at night alone and walk to the show
28:29
Speaker 5: she was on her way to when she was when
28:32
Speaker 5: she was killed. That's how much she loved the city,
28:35
Speaker 5: and that's how much she trusted the city, and that's
28:37
Speaker 5: how capable she was.
28:39
Speaker 6: Well.
28:39
Speaker 3: She was on her way to see a show.
28:40
Speaker 2: What was she saying?
28:42
Speaker 5: One of her students shows. She was on her way
28:45
Speaker 5: to see one of her students, and she was going
28:48
Speaker 5: to talk with another student about a book she was
28:51
Speaker 5: she was creating at that show.
28:54
Speaker 2: Well, your grandmother was more cogent than most young people
28:59
Speaker 2: and young adult that I know. Let's go to doctor
29:01
Speaker 2: Michael Boden, former Chief Medical Examiner in New York. Doctor Boden,
29:05
Speaker 2: what happened to Barbara? She was fine, well, not fine,
29:11
Speaker 2: but she was had her wits about her, was speaking,
29:16
Speaker 2: described to her student what happened, that she was shoved her,
29:19
Speaker 2: that she's ever been shoved in her life, and all
29:21
Speaker 2: of a sudden she seemingly whacked out and then died.
29:26
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a good question. Firstly, Nancy, I don't think
29:32
Speaker 7: she was shoved. She was struck very hard in the back.
29:34
Speaker 7: And I think there's a difference between somebody shoving somebody
29:37
Speaker 7: in a subway and just being whacked very hard in
29:41
Speaker 7: the back, which is as Aja said, is what she
29:45
Speaker 7: said happened to her. And then when she fell down
29:49
Speaker 7: and struck her head. Remember Liam Neeson's.
29:53
Speaker 3: Wife, Natasha Richardson.
29:56
Speaker 7: Right and Natasha Richison, when she skied down and fell
29:59
Speaker 7: down and they called it an ambulance and she said
30:02
Speaker 7: she felt fine. There there's one specific type of head injury,
30:07
Speaker 7: a tear of a little artery middle men ingeal artery
30:11
Speaker 7: that when a fall of cars it can get ruptured,
30:15
Speaker 7: but the patient doesn't feel anything for as the bleeding
30:20
Speaker 7: comes from it, and many hours later or a day later,
30:24
Speaker 7: the bleeding accumulates to such an extent that it compresses
30:29
Speaker 7: the brain and causes the.
30:30
Speaker 3: Person hey, hight whit whit why?
30:32
Speaker 2: Doctor Biden, we're not except for doctor Angel Arnold, who's
30:36
Speaker 2: not only an MB but she's a psychiatrist as well.
30:39
Speaker 2: You're in like warp speed for all of us. What
30:42
Speaker 2: First of all, what artery are you talking about?
30:45
Speaker 7: The metal middle meningeal artery. It's a little, a very
30:50
Speaker 7: small artery that goes.
30:51
Speaker 3: To the where is it on your head? Is it
30:54
Speaker 3: above your ear? Near your temple?
30:56
Speaker 7: You got it? That's just from where it is. It
30:58
Speaker 7: comes to a little a little opening in the skull
31:02
Speaker 7: just behind the ear.
31:04
Speaker 2: You know how I know that?
31:05
Speaker 3: Doctor?
31:06
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't think I've told you this. My son
31:10
Speaker 2: does track and field, and he was practicing discus and
31:13
Speaker 2: some other kid came up behind him, like eighty feet
31:16
Speaker 2: away and also started practicing discus. And my son, John David,
31:21
Speaker 2: heard somebody say watch out, and he turned his head barely,
31:24
Speaker 2: and a discus hit him in the head on the
31:27
Speaker 2: deceilse and all I could think about was bleeding on
31:32
Speaker 2: the brain. The coach said, hey, are you taking him home?
31:35
Speaker 2: I like, no, I'm taking him to the emergency room.
31:38
Speaker 2: And if he had not turned his head. Dr Biden,
31:43
Speaker 2: the hit was about three fourths of an inch above
31:47
Speaker 2: the medeal meningial artery that you are describing, and it
31:53
Speaker 2: would have required immediate neurovascular surgery to save his life.
31:58
Speaker 3: So I just went through all this us. Do you
32:00
Speaker 3: think that's what happened to Barbara.
32:02
Speaker 7: Yes, And I think you saved your son's life when
32:04
Speaker 7: you brought him right to the emergency room. Because it
32:09
Speaker 7: doesn't heal by itself. It keeps bleeding and slowly and
32:14
Speaker 7: that's why the person is okay for a while. And
32:17
Speaker 7: while she described what happened, and then it just causes
32:23
Speaker 7: the person to gradually go to sleep and lose consciousness.
32:27
Speaker 7: There's no pain with it, she doesn't have any pain,
32:30
Speaker 7: but it's just there was the one little area that's
32:36
Speaker 7: when she fell down. That that's the she fell on
32:40
Speaker 7: that here area.
32:41
Speaker 1: You know, Time stories with Nancy Grace.
33:01
Speaker 2: Tourney, DeStefano joining us from Newsday newspaper, who's been on
33:06
Speaker 2: this from the very beginning, and AJ, everybody on the
33:09
Speaker 2: panel please jump in, as you obviously know, this is
33:14
Speaker 2: not high ta at Windsor Castle with King Charles and
33:17
Speaker 2: Queen Camilla. Jump in when you have a thought, AJ,
33:22
Speaker 2: especially you Tony. The defense is also arguing that the
33:27
Speaker 2: so called Cesspool Princess Lauren Pazienza has been overcharged. I
33:37
Speaker 2: don't understand why she's not charged with a hate crime
33:41
Speaker 2: with enhanced penalties, because when you commit a violent crime
33:45
Speaker 2: on an elder, typically in most jurisdictions, you get enhanced
33:50
Speaker 2: or greater sentences behind bars, and they're looking at a
33:54
Speaker 2: sweetheart deal.
33:55
Speaker 3: What's going on up there?
33:57
Speaker 6: Well, I'm wondering. You know, ourdella is trying to basically
34:01
Speaker 6: diminish the intent to cause injury, the element of first
34:06
Speaker 6: degree manslaughter. That's why they're arguing about the intoxication, the
34:10
Speaker 6: drug use, etc.
34:11
Speaker 3: Okay, you're actually making my head hurt, Tony.
34:14
Speaker 6: Why is it making your head hurt?
34:15
Speaker 2: The law presumes and jump in if I'm wrong, anybody
34:18
Speaker 2: on the panel. The law presumes you intend the natural
34:21
Speaker 2: consequence of your act. For instance, if I take a
34:25
Speaker 2: gun and I pointed to Jackie and pull the trigger
34:28
Speaker 2: and kill her. I can't then say, oh, I just
34:31
Speaker 2: meant to scare her.
34:32
Speaker 3: Or you can't take a.
34:33
Speaker 2: Piece of fine china and hold it above a cement
34:36
Speaker 2: floor and then throw it down and it breaks and
34:38
Speaker 2: you say, oh, I didn't mean to break it. The
34:40
Speaker 2: law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act.
34:46
Speaker 2: You shove literally a little old lady to the pavement
34:52
Speaker 2: and she hits her head, what do you think is
34:55
Speaker 2: going to happen?
34:56
Speaker 6: There is the element of intent, but there also is
34:59
Speaker 6: the element of reclessness and the law they're different. If
35:03
Speaker 6: you intend, If she intended to shove Barbara Gustern at
35:08
Speaker 6: the cause of injury, that's a conscious decision. If she
35:12
Speaker 6: did so recklessly, that's another element.
35:15
Speaker 3: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
35:16
Speaker 2: Wait, wait, Tony, there's something called the abandoned and malignant heart,
35:21
Speaker 2: which means you are so reckless. For instance, if I
35:24
Speaker 2: got my minivan and Florida to ninety mph and then
35:29
Speaker 2: drove through a street market and I just happened to
35:32
Speaker 2: plow down four or five people and they died, that's
35:36
Speaker 2: still murder.
35:38
Speaker 3: With an abandoned and malignant heart.
35:41
Speaker 2: Where are you Sheelle Nutt, you're the lawyer on the
35:43
Speaker 2: panel today, jump in, man, help me with Tony de Stefano.
35:48
Speaker 2: He obviously knows the law better than you, and I said.
35:50
Speaker 8: I need you.
35:52
Speaker 7: Absolute.
35:53
Speaker 8: This is the kicker to me. When she shoves this
35:57
Speaker 8: lady and then calls her a bitch right after that,
36:02
Speaker 8: she's intending. That is clear evidence she is intended to
36:06
Speaker 8: seriously injured this lady. That shows her intent right there
36:10
Speaker 8: on her worst day, on the prosecution's worst day.
36:14
Speaker 6: She's guilty of.
36:15
Speaker 8: Man one under New York penal code. She could possibly
36:18
Speaker 8: be charged with a murder charge. To say that she
36:20
Speaker 8: is overcharged is sick.
36:22
Speaker 2: I wouldn't take a man one. That'd be over my
36:25
Speaker 2: dead body clutching the criminal code.
36:30
Speaker 3: No way, no way.
36:32
Speaker 2: You know what You're right, okay, Tony to Stephan though,
36:35
Speaker 2: I had to bring in backup to argue with you
36:37
Speaker 2: about the law. So you know that's a badge of honor.
36:41
Speaker 2: By the way, Tony, so what do you think is
36:43
Speaker 2: behind this sweetheart deal? If it's even true? Just because
36:47
Speaker 2: Idolla says it does not mean it's really happening true.
36:51
Speaker 6: I think what the argument to hear ultimately is going
36:54
Speaker 6: to be about is the penalty of the prosecution in
36:58
Speaker 6: idella or arguing over negotiations here, and either they're going
37:03
Speaker 6: to stick with Man one and get a negotiated penalty
37:07
Speaker 6: of some years in prison, but they might conceivably get
37:12
Speaker 6: down to Man two, which will be a lowiest threshold.
37:15
Speaker 2: Oh dear Lord in heaven, No, what was she get
37:19
Speaker 2: eight years and be out in four Well, I don't.
37:21
Speaker 6: Think she's going to have a bare minimum. I think
37:24
Speaker 6: she's probably going to have eight years if it's in
37:29
Speaker 6: the Man two zone. If it's any higher than that,
37:32
Speaker 6: I think she's going to suffer perhaps more substantial time.
37:36
Speaker 6: But I Dalo also said outside the courtroom the other
37:40
Speaker 6: day that look, if we don't get the kind of
37:42
Speaker 6: disposition we want in terms of the plea, you know,
37:45
Speaker 6: indicating we're going to go to trial.
37:47
Speaker 2: Right right right, That's what every defense attorney says. We're
37:49
Speaker 2: going to trial because take a listen to our cut
37:54
Speaker 2: sixteen who is this woman?
37:56
Speaker 3: Take a listen to our forensic crime online.
37:58
Speaker 4: After graduating high school twenty thirteen, Lauren Ponzienza attended the
38:02
Speaker 4: Fashion Institute of Technology in Manhattan and worked as an
38:06
Speaker 4: events coordinator for a high end French furniture company. She
38:09
Speaker 4: was seen gallivanting around town attending swanky parties in our
38:13
Speaker 4: gallery openings before she resigned her position last December, but
38:17
Speaker 4: neighbors at the upscale Astoria condo where she lives with
38:20
Speaker 4: her fiancee said she wasn't all smiles at home. Law
38:24
Speaker 4: enforcement sources say that Pasienza was a known nuisance in
38:27
Speaker 4: the Shore Towers and had previously called cops on her neighbors.
38:31
Speaker 4: A woman who lives in the building says there was
38:34
Speaker 4: always an issue with her and someone in the building.
38:36
Speaker 4: It's always like something with that lady. Another man who
38:40
Speaker 4: also lives in the building described her as definitely not
38:43
Speaker 4: the best tenant.
38:44
Speaker 2: So, Doctor Antie Arnold, we've heard about anger management, that
38:49
Speaker 2: she had been a bully, she was in grade school.
38:54
Speaker 2: What does this all mean, Doctor Angie.
38:56
Speaker 14: Nsy, This goes way beyond anger management. Let's just point
39:04
Speaker 14: out I'm just going to say this, Okay, people develop
39:11
Speaker 14: very bad personality disorders starting it infancy. As a matter
39:16
Speaker 14: of fact, we know that it starts in infancy. When
39:20
Speaker 14: you're not treated correctly in infancy. That's how serial killers develop. Okay,
39:27
Speaker 14: I think that she's going to be a case study
39:31
Speaker 14: for what happens to children.
39:33
Speaker 2: You know what, I really appreciate you going all the
39:35
Speaker 2: way back to her infancy. But let me play a
39:38
Speaker 2: clip of her, the so called Sayspool princess mocking the
39:43
Speaker 2: death in her adulthood. Listen, is she naming? She may stop, please,
40:02
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear any more of it. That's
40:04
Speaker 2: why we're talking about as an adult mocking the deaf.
40:09
Speaker 2: Aj Mayor Gustern, what is your message to the prosecution
40:15
Speaker 2: and the defense today.
40:18
Speaker 5: I want to thank the prosecution. I understand the pressure
40:23
Speaker 5: that y'all must be experiencing with this case, and I
40:27
Speaker 5: think y'all have done a great job. As for the defense,
40:31
Speaker 5: Lorn in particular, recognize how lucky you are. Right, Recognize
40:36
Speaker 5: that you could have got murder, You could have got
40:40
Speaker 5: hate crime. Your parents could have gotten in trouble for
40:43
Speaker 5: harboring you. I right, recognize these things.
40:46
Speaker 2: Wow, there's so much better of a person than they
40:49
Speaker 2: go ahead.
40:50
Speaker 5: And you know, from the very beginning she had she
40:55
Speaker 5: had a very good chance of having me potentially be
40:59
Speaker 5: in her corner. Right if she would have not run,
41:04
Speaker 5: if she would have stayed and been like this was
41:07
Speaker 5: me right, Like I did this like the day she
41:10
Speaker 5: was watching them take her away, right, I might. I
41:15
Speaker 5: might have been supportive of her. Instead, she's she's pushed
41:19
Speaker 5: the trial back as much as she can. She's she's
41:22
Speaker 5: done everything in the playbook to draw this out and
41:26
Speaker 5: get the minimum time possible. I'm not convinced that she
41:33
Speaker 5: recognizes truly what she's even done.
41:36
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye Sam.