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Mastering Ultra Running: Insights from Paul Tierney · VOOM Performance Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's times where that might make sense to do some bigger days back to back, especially if your event is something like Dragon's Back, for example, where you literally have to do back massive days.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you should probably have some sort of an experience of having to go out the door the day after having done, you know, whatever it is, five hours or or thereabouts.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I suppose it's about asking, how could I, if if we take that example, how could I uh get a sense of what that's going to feel like without the risk of not being able to actually train the following week or even not making the start line because I've I've completely overdone it.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's definitely no right or wrong with it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've found like from a personal perspective, there were times where I could do or have done very, very long days back to back to back and survived and like you know, lived to tell the tale or whatever and didn't get injured.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Voom Performance Podcast.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Mel Berry, and today we're talking ultra running and coaching.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: The one of the trickiest problems in sport is injury and why it so rarely arrives in the way that we expect it to.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: My guest today is Paul Tierney, a coach, a running rehab specialist with over 20 years of experience helping athletes of all levels overcoming injury and improving their performance.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: A former Wainwrights record holder, an inter-county hurdler in his native island, his approach is shaped by his background in high performance environments and his extensive work with the general population too.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Through Missing Link Coaching, which he runs with his partner Sarah McCormack, Paul specialises in technical and physiological development of trail and road runners.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: He treats running as a movement skill and he continually refines them rather than something that you can fix with a cookie cutter changes.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is exactly why I wanted Paul to join me on the Voom Performance Podcast.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: Paul, welcome to today's show.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Emil, nice to be here.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start with a little bit about you and people that might not know you.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: You started in hurling in your first sport in Ireland.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, how does somebody who goes from the inter-counter hurling to become a running rehab specialist get into ultra running?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: What was that journey like?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I yeah, so I I took hurling seriously from about the time I was 10 years old till maybe 21, 22, and around that time um just I I kind of had a an interest in endurance sport in general in the in the background, but could never, you know, participate in the sport because of of hurling.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I went to Australia at the end of 2004 for about five months, and while I was over there, I said, well, now was an opportunity to do a little bit.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I was living in Bondai and um there's a nice cliff run for people that know it, from Bondi to Coodie Beach.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I started doing that and and realised that was quite enjoyable.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Bought a bike off a guy, I don't know, saw an ad in the paper or something, a hundred quid bike, and there was a sprint, a series of sprint chatlons, I can't even remember where it was, signed up for that and did a did a race.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I used to swim in as an outdoor pool there in in Bonday as well, and um yeah, just wasn't very good or anything like that, but really enjoyed it.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: It was a you know, I suppose I certainly was I probably am a competitive person, but um that that was you know about changing your um mindset in terms of you know, I wasn't gonna win anything, obviously.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Just wanted to to be able to, you know, complete the distance and then it it kind of spiraled on from from there.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So realised that it was quite fun to run off-road after a couple of years of doing that, and um found the Irish Mountain Running Association, various different races around Ireland and gravitated towards kind of doing slightly longer stuff.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: That um led me to the Lake 100, and I went or came over to the lakes in 2011 to do that uh for the first time and um loved it, loved the lakes, absolutely taken by the place and um yeah that again just set a whole thing in motion, and I've I've been living here now for um permanently for about 12 years, so yeah.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that journey and love that part of Australia and the pool there is one of the most iconic pools, I think, in in the world.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And for you then coming back to the UK, I know you went on a journey to do a lot of or various triathons because that was then something that you you enjoyed.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: And how did that lead you to coaching?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've got missing link coaching as your coaching business with your partner Sarah McCormack.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: How did you then get into coaching?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I started um back in 2002, end of 2002, 2003, uh personal training and um I did a a degree in in uni which combined it was a business studies degree, but it combined recreation and leisure was the name of the thing, but basically fitness industry management and and things like that, and part of that was obviously gym instructing and then on to PTing.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I was kind of involved in you know strength training.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: At at the time the emphasis would have been, I suppose, on people, you know, weight management, wanting to look a little bit better, things like that, and then gradually more towards a kind of performance end of things.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now I think my first I wouldn't call it coaching, but my first experience of coaching was as a I think I was either 12 or 13, and we group of us that was four or five of my friends involved in the hurling club who uh once we graduated out of this Saturday morning skills um group that that used to be run, we we were too old for it um at at 13 years old.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we we went back and got thrown in helping with the under sixes or sixes or sevens.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my first experience of organized coaching, but uh there wasn't a whole pile of coaching going on, it was hurting uh small kids around the place, really.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so um I I've I've kind of gone off the point there slightly, but it I I've been doing some form of coaching for for a fair degree of time.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the natural as my interest I suppose developed and and increased in the endurance side of things, you know, I I I guess I started to put put plans together for for myself, for other people, and and we we started a little bit more informally uh at first.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was you know doing plans for for for people we knew, and gradually, as you'll probably know, the demand for that type of thing just grew.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, it's been a a I guess a proper business um since about 2014 or or thereabouts 2015.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And anybody that I speak to speaks very, very positively about you.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the one person that did bring us together was Renee McGregor, who opened our podcast series, and Renee talked very positively and glowingly about you.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you definitely have got some fans out there.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: But let's talk about training methodology, and you talk a lot about treating running as a movement skill that needs to be continually refined rather than applying a cookie cutter or a specific set of drills.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: What does that actually look like for you?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first question.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you embed that into a training plan that can be constantly used by athletes rather than it's a prehab or a rehab exercise?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose it like the that probably changes based on the the individual.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not that's one side of the stuff I I do, I guess.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not something I'm shoving down people's necks really.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's I'll probably focus on something like that a little more with with someone who is injured or or someone coming to me because they're in pain or because they've got some sort of an issue like that.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I I do some work out of a uh physioclinic here in the lakes one or two days a week, and um it's it's it's part of a of a puzzle, I think.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that you can't the the problem is that there there are there's probably a certain cohort of people out there who you know that that is the thing that needs to be changed.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's the root cause of all injuries.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: You you need to run in this uh specific way, and then you'll avoid getting injured, and and that's you know an oversimplification and it's it's a bit more complicated than that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: And however, having that as a as a one of your tools in your toolbox, and understanding, first of all, I guess what what should be present, so the the commonalities across almost all contexts when it comes to running, understanding those and and and what should be happening, and then being able to tie that back to what's going on with the the individual.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be that you don't worry about that at all if someone with a you know an ankle sprain is probably a pretty common occurrence with types of person I'm working with, and like the answer to their problem, certainly in the initial stages, isn't to stick them on a treadmill and start telling them they need to to do a very specific thing when they run.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: They they obviously need to to settle some of the initial symptoms, and then it's about restoring some of the the qualities that that you need around a good functioning ankle, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the foot needs to be able to to to yield and to to propel, it needs to be able to to create stiffness at the right time, it needs to be springy, it needs to assist in in moving you forward, right?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and some of that could be lost if you if you've done your ankle.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna cue someone out of that um issue.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you do need to maybe zoom in at times and possibly then zoom out as well.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the trouble with an injury like that is that it it does have a legacy and and it can change how someone moves along after the the problem has seemingly sorted itself.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, you you find new pathways, if you like, you find new ways around that issue, and that's the brilliant thing about the body.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's probably the the I suppose one of the biggest um pieces of evidence as to why there isn't a way to to run.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's that we we are very adaptable, we can find ways around these problems in our body, and that's actually a strength of humans, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: That we can slightly shift how we deal with these forces so that we're not biasing an area that needs a bit of needs a bit of time to to recover.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: But that can of course have a knock-on effect, and it it can mean that you're now maybe loading tissues that aren't habituated to that type of uh stimulus, and and then they start to become a little bit irritated, um, and now you've got a a problem in your in your knee.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not as simple as as saying, right, you're injured, so we need to change how you move.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: We need to make you run in this specific way, and then magically your your injuries will disappear.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that kind of ties in with the the idea out there that there's a specific look to to running, and if you can if you can create that, if you can mimic that specific look, again, you're running correctly, then that's you sorted.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: It probably should be certainly for the individual themselves, the focus probably shouldn't be on how it looks because they can't see themselves anyway, and it should probably be on how it feels, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you you're you're looking for a feeling of ease or a feeling where you're not maybe fighting against yourself, things feel relaxed, uh, you're obviously not in pain.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: You don't feel like you're you're creating any more effort than you need to to move at the particular pace that you're trying to move at or the the intensity that you're trying to move at.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just enough effort for the particular set of circumstances.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go into more detail around the ankle and the foot because those are the areas that often don't get talked enough about.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you look at training and let's look at the training in its polarized view, there's a lot of conversations around 80-20, so 80% easy, 20% hard, but the translation of that into the mountains where you have a lot of vertical gain and a specific climbing route, I guess that complication of training zones, what are your thoughts on either a training methodology?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone's listening to this that is an athlete that doesn't have a coach and thinking, well, how should I train through the week?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are your views on either 80-20 or a way for somebody to look at their training week in terms of volume, vertical gain, or any other elements of it?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I don't know.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I'm not massively keen on uh sorry, um aligning myself with a a particular methodology, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because no one way of doing things fits every situation and like that whole 80-20 thing.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look, these things just grow legs nowadays because of social media and and you know influential voices.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly one of one of those voices in the polarized training side of things was um or is Stephen Siler.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And he, if if you've listened to him enough, he's probably not saying what a lot of the louder voices are saying about that whole thing, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: So like you could maybe summarize it and and make it more useful by saying you need to do you need to look at the amount of time you have as an individual in a given week, you need to do a fair bit of relaxed, comfortable, easy, whatever you want to call it, training where you you feel like you come back again and are able to do the same thing again the the following day without any major problem, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it needs to be at a level that allows you to go and do the same again.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then because that stimulus is on the lower end of the scale, if you want to continue to improve, you need to introduce some degree of intensity as well or s slightly higher intensity, and what that looks like probably depends on you and your ability to to actually carry it out to do it, train um your uh your uh durability, your your ability to to not get injured, all of those things.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and of course the you know the the counter to the 80-20 thing that you know everyone is talking about now is um if you do only have five or six hours in the week, you might want to do slightly more than 20% of your training at at some sort of a higher intensity than easy.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So because the the the the total volume of training is relatively low, and therefore to create enough of a stimulus to actually improve or or get better, you you probably need to do a slightly higher percentage, slightly higher intensity.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, as you talked about on both of those points, everybody's different, and it's again finding what's right for you, what works for you?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of you change over a period of time.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And a couple of my guests, Ali Bailey and Damian Hall, that are earlier episodes.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I asked them a question around back-to-back long runs, big efforts on consecutive days from a stimulus of a race fatigue point of view.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Everything that you know as a coach and injury risk.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on training like that for an ultra that is 50k plus?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a good way for training and getting the greatest bang for your buck?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it again individuals?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: You need to look about what and how you are and whether or not your body can actually do that?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: You mean back to back days.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, back-to-back training runs.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um sorry, back-to-back long, longer training runs.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know the podcast probably could be summed up by it it depends, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But um, it sort of does.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And like there's times where that might make sense to to do some bigger days back to back, especially if your event is something like Dragon's Back, for example, where you literally have to do back massive days.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you should probably have some sort of an experience of having to go out the door the day after having done, you know, whatever it is, five hours or or thereabouts.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I suppose it's about asking, how could I, if if we take that example, how could I uh get a sense of what that's going to feel like without the risk of not being able to actually train the following week or even not making the start line because I've I've completely overdone it.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's definitely no right or wrong with it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I I've found like from a personal perspective, there were times where I could do or have done very, very long days back to back to back um and survived and like you know, lived to tell the tale or whatever and and didn't get injured, but right now I couldn't do that, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't get away with that in at this very moment in time.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if you if you design your or you you create a situation in your schedule or in your life that means that you've got very little else to worry about for that three or four-day period or whatever it is, a weekend period, you don't have any other responsibilities, childcare, work, any of that, and it is a one-off, and you you can recover well the following day as well, then it might be appropriate, especially for something like Dragon's Back, where you do need to or you you will benefit from experiencing what that's like to do back-to-back days.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But in terms of like needing to do it, like it's it's a thing you need to do to be good at say doing a hundred mile trail race or whatever.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, probably not.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you can uh create a situation where you're you're pretty consistent across the week in your training and you do something longer that uh does stimulate some of these things you get from a a long run, um and you know it's three, three and a half, four hours, uh you're probably not gonna be in a bad place doing it that way as well.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously then it it like it's gonna vary uh you know, depending on the part of the year you're at.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: The idea that you should be doing a long run every weekend is is not great.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not uh necessarily the case.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: It leads on to a question and it's from a listener, Matt, and he's 58, and he describes himself as a master's athlete.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And he's asking, could cycling be used as a way to get zone two training volume to offset some of the running volume that's needed on the trails?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And his thought is as an athlete that taking longer to recover, does that activity swap to help prevent injuries?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So let's take an example.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Matt goes for a long run on Friday and then does uh either a bike or an indoor bike to help on that side and building his engine.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a good way of approaching it as you get a little bit uh I'm gonna say younger instead of older, as in his aging?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like um, I think if you you look at uh people's training, if you look, if you look at people's training, say even let's just take myself like from you know 15 years ago versus now, I can see the benefit now of adding something that isn't as impactful on your your body, right?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So throwing a bike in instead of a second runner or something like that makes a lot more sense to me nowadays than it would have back then, because I feel like I will not compromise the next day's training as much if if I do something with a little bit of a lower impact and it's obviously still a stimulus.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like if you look at the the obviously there's lots of different races, and there's there's you know, running is there's so many different things you can do with running now that that matters as well, because obviously the the the bike is probably even more relevant to someone who's going to be yumping up very steep hills versus someone who's training for uh to do a fast road marathon, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that the bike wouldn't be a useful training modality for someone doing a fast road marathon, but it's it's just probably more useful for um that person doing the long trail race with lots of hills.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and you can like it's it yes, it's not specific to to yumping uphill, but you know, in a high gear, low cadence uphill on a bike, it's not massively dissimilar to to doing something like that on foot, uphill.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like hiking uphill on foot as part of your training for long trail races is a much more muscularly driven thing than than say running on the flat, where it's you know, there's a lot more elasticity involved, and you could argue that the bike is kind of fulfilling some of that.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's definitely a way to move the mixture.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And your point there around specificity is train for what you're doing.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that was an injury question.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he goes on to ask around strength training.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is isometric training better than traditional strength training for somebody in his position, so he's a 58-year-old ultra running.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: What's your thought on isometric training and explain a little bit about isometric training, what that actually means rather than traditional strength training?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so an isometric contraction is just that where the muscles are contracting, but the joint isn't necessarily moving.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if I was sitting in a lun the bottom of a lunge position, I would be holding an isometric lunge.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: The muscles still have to contract, they still have to work to keep me in that position, but there's no change in joint angles.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of one of the reasons they might be useful, well, there's there's a there's a number of reasons, but in terms of overall fatigue, there's probably slightly less doing uh an isometric type exercise.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you're struggling to to, you know, with some part of the range of motion of a particular exercise.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Holding that position in an ISO might be useful to overcome that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Time under tension can be increased.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like if if you're doing a standard lunge, there'll be periods of time where there's a little bit more force required or or the muscles are in a relationship to one another where they have to do a bit more work versus other parts of the movement where they're not doing as much.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas in a in an isometric you can obviously concentrate that effort in it in a particular place.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Holding positions that look a little bit like running, in my opinion, can be quite useful.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like there'd be there's a a debate around whether um strength training needs to be needs to look a certain way to be specific.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So like why do you need to hold a specific position because strength training isn't running, right?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not specific.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Why why try and be overly specific?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's that's true, right?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: However, if I want to maybe increase tendon stiffness, break down a bit of inhibition, maybe.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: So like someone not really wanting to bend their knee to a certain degree because they've got a little bit of pain, though holding specific positions might be quite useful.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is like going a little bit off topic, but doing something like uh holding a mid-stance position, pushing into a a bar, an immovable object, uh or a squat rack or something like that, in that kind of you know, the the the position of mid-stance where you're fully on your leg, and then combining that with some sort of a jump afterwards can be quite a useful way of doing things.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: It can again, it can make you feel a little bit less inhibited, maybe when you go to jump.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you'll see a lot of runners as they age, or maybe um you know, they've they've gone through cycles of injury, etc.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Running allows them to hide problems that they have, right?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like every joint in the body is moving and running, so you can you see all sorts of stuff going on when you you go to races, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: People can just move around their own individual problems, but when you ask someone to continuously hop on one leg the length of a room, there's way less hiding places.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and doing some of those combining exercises like that where you are really really putting high levels attention into a position that you then have to sort of get in and out of in a in a jump uh can be really really powerful in my opinion.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: For my sins, you know, obviously like other people spend a bit of time on social media and um way less recently I've just cut it out.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: But unfortunately we have to to go on occasionally and do little bits of it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um there is a bit of debate around that kind of stuff at the moment.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I d I just I don't really understand why professional people online have to to start absolutely cutting each other to to ribbons, especially when the people that are being cut are really, really well respected and good at what they do online.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I've just I I've seen that recently with um some of this isometric stuff, you know, people back against it.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's just a two, right?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a one way of doing things.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: You still benefit usually from doing the more traditional stuff as well.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've got some sort of a problem that means some of that traditional stuff's difficult, you've got to find a way around it, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're if you're working with someone, and I'm sure you've come across this, who doesn't want to go to a gym, who who really doesn't like the idea of of strength training, or certainly doesn't like the idea of being watched in a in a busy gym, um, but you still want to give them something that creates high levels of tension, actually creates a bit of a stimulus to get stronger.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well then some of these isometric exercises can be very useful because they're low barrier of entry, like it's they're not difficult to to or they're hard to to say to yourself doing.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: They don't need a whole pile of equipment necessarily, and at least it's something, right?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And rather than and no disrespect to to anyone who who does it, but like rather than doing very, very low intensity, like floor-based exercises, maybe like you know, the traditional, maybe stuff that's come from rehab, clamshells, bandit walks, all of this stuff, like rather than doing something with such a low, a low stimulus that doesn't really drive adaptation in terms of you know tendon, stiffness, strength, etc., using some of these ISO exercises can give you some of the things you'll get from traditional strength training, but that you'll really struggle to get um, you know, doing doing very, very low intensity exercises.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's and your point there around strength training and every guest that I've spoken to on this podcast, we've talked about strength training and the importance of it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And would your approach be that it is a non-negotiable for anybody that is doing any kind of running and let's let's classify that as a marathon up, that they're going into a gym or they've got some kind of structure at home, that they are lifting heavy weights and lowering the reps again from an adaptation point of view.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Would you say that strength training in any shape or form is non-negotiable for anybody uh running a marathon upwards?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's always a caveat, like uh uh I I wouldn't say totally non-negotiable in any shape or form because shape or form uh matters, but um yeah, like doing doing heavier lifting at some point, you know, as part of your training is going to is almost certainly going to be beneficial, assuming you pick exercises that aren't aggravating a problem or creating issues for you.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, like that's um that's the way of doing things these days, right?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the the very, very high rep um low weight type of strength training is pro probably not um I wouldn't say it's um it's irrelevant, and that's why I'm saying about like the in in any shape or form, like obviously there's a time and a place for almost everything.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like you could say there's the potential for anything to work, right?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: But we know that like heavy, low and and by by its nature then low rep because it's heavy type work is beneficial, um, is going to drive adaptation maybe more than doing yeah, 30 reps of something that you could you could literally check out and and fall asleep doing.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another thing, like that we're we're fairly hyper-focused on the physiological adaptations, or sorry, how what the what the exercise looks like from those particular characteristics, so like the the weight, the reps, etc.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't focus on or don't put as much focus on the the need to be in engaged in what you're doing.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: So doing mindless stuff that doesn't really stimulate you and make you concentrate and you know engage you is probably not going to be as beneficial as something where you do have to, you know, be on your game and and actually concentrate and um you know you're challenged a bit more.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: So like the I can't remember the quote, but there's a really good paper that I'm always banging on about that John Kiley has put together just a kind of a review article, and that there's a really nice quote in it, and it it basically looks saying that the task needs to be difficult enough to keep you engaged and to to um to to encourage the body to drive are sorry, um direct neural resources towards, but not so hard that you get demoralised and and like can't do it at all, right?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And on the other hand, it needs to be sorry, it shouldn't be so easy that you could do it with your eyes closed because you're not going to devote neural resources towards it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna there's no learning, okay?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so uh I'm I'm sort of going off topic like but strength strength stuff needs to it's it's really useful and it's I would say again like as you're getting older as well, it's it's definitely increases in terms of its importance, but yeah, it can look vastly different.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many different ways to to screen that cat.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's again back to that specificity, it's about back to the the athlete, and we talked earlier about our passion for coaching and making sure that it's relative to the individual.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: And let's take a slightly different injury approach.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we're in UTMB week.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: They we recorded this on the Friday before.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: In the next couple of hours, they they set sail on their on their journey, and but a lot of injuries, a lot of knee injuries.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you especially in the men's Killian Journey and Jim Walmsley have both had knee injuries.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that that's just a coincidence?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bad year.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: You think athletes are having to go longer, harder, faster?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on why there seems to be more athletes at that elite end that are getting injuries?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I don't know, is there any difference this year in terms of the numbers?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think when when high profile people like Jim Walmsley and Killian Jorney pull out of a race, and um I know Hayden Hawkes isn't racing, and I think he was meant to be.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: I know that because I I I saw I listened to him on a podcast this week, but and the three three lads have knee issues, but firstly, like I don't know anything about their issues except what's available online.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: So like I don't, you know, but it probably is the fact that those three guys have knee issues and they're not doing great, I'd say is more just coincidence, like that they all happen to have knee issues.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would say, knee issues as a runners, as runners who run up steep hills and down steep hills a lot, uh it's it's the type of injury that you're potentially going to pick up, and there's probably however many other people who are sub-elite also not lining up or DNSing because they've got some similar type problem.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like I think if you if you look at their if we are just taking the three lads um as an example, they've they've been around a while now.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: They're they've accumulated cycles of niggles or injuries.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: When you if you've never been injured, which is un unlikely, right?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: But like if you if you've never been injured, your the landscape, your uh um physical landscape looks very different than someone who's who's gone through lots of cycles of of injuries.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: So and you're never you could argue you're never the same system again once you've had an injury, right?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: The body adapts and deals with it, and you know, the tissues recover them themselves, but there may be some rewiring and and like subtle changes in terms of how you load things and how you move.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then you add a second injury and the process happens again, and so on and so forth.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, 10-15 years down the line, that landscape looks very different than it than it used to, right?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And now the you know, the body has these inbuilt, let's just call them, options available to it to direct load in different ways, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So every time your foot hits the floor, things will be activated or or joint angles will be ever so slightly different each time to allow that load to be dispersed more evenly, if you like.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like if it was always if your foot strike was always the exact same and and the exact combination of muscle fibres and tissues was always the exact same that contributed to dealing with that force, you'd wear yourself out a lot quicker, right?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we have these inbuilt degeneracies in our system that allow us to uh subtly change how we strike the ground each time the angle at our knee, the angle at our ankle, the nation of angles between various joints, all of that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it creates robustness in the system and it allows us to basically deal with that load a little bit more effectively.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: But as you accumulate cycles of of injury, some of those options are taken off the table, and now you have a smaller this bandwidth of options is is narrowing, and that in itself then potentially predisposes you to picking up other issues.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And if you like there'll be debate out there about certain biomechanical uh certain biomechanical characteristics causing injury or being risk factors for injury, like you know, a a hiking hip or a drop a hip drop, over pronation, um adduction of the hip, valgus knee, uh what are the other ones?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anterior pelvic tilt, all the all these different things that that's all these different variations in people's bodies, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: There's there'll be some research out there kind of pointing towards like this is a risk factor.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Greg Lehman, who's a well-known Canadian physio, he has a nice course you can do online resilient runner, running resiliency, and he has a nice side where he lists all of these risk factors for injuries, and on the opposite side he lists um these biomechanical characteristics that are not risk factors, and the lists are the exact same, right?
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's research out there to say they are risky, they're not risky.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of I think people miss the point in that if you have a really big, say, drop of your hip as you hit the ground, or a hike of of the stanceide leg on one side and not so much on the other, that might not be a problem for you and for a hundred other people.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: But in the right set of circumstances, when you combine like cycles of injury and fatigue and under-recovery and poor fueling and whatever, being slightly more sensitive because of tiredness and all that stuff, then maybe you create a situation where that biomechanical risk factor now becomes a it actually becomes a a risk factor, right, for that particular person.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because the the other conditions around that um uh characteristic are now in place to create a pain experience, maybe.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't even know how we we uh got here, but the the the point I'm making, I suppose, is that you're it's it's complex to try and look at look at how someone moves and and look at some of these characteristics and say, right, they are they're gonna get injured because of this.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they might not.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um risk factor bingo.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's what you need to play to be able to start going.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for your insight in them.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: And let's talk about a practical toolkit when it comes to feet, ankles, and using poles.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll start with feet.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Feet and ankle strength are far less talked about than glutes and quads, but it's absorbing so much impact, your ability to then be able to have movement, especially in the ankle joint.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Feet.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do we need to do from a feet point of view to any athlete or person that's listening to this that thinks, okay, how do I strengthen my feet and how do I mobilize my feet?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: What would your general advice be?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, I suppose it again, it it depends on the person.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think, I think um gener generally, let's make it general then.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I think generally speaking, having a bit more awareness around your your foot and what it does and how you load it and you know the pressure you have in your feet.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, for example, you if you were to observe lots of different people, you would probably start to notice that they do funny things with their their feet when they're just standing, right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: So like they they shift their weight to certain parts of their feet, they do something similar when they're moving, you know, they maybe um avoid loading certain parts of their foot or they they they they change everything above to try and deal with an issue maybe that they're not even aware of below.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And like the foot is it's look, these conversations are are probably kind of silly in a way.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Not not that the question's silly, but the the idea, you know, this body part is more important than this other body part.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had this conversation, like I was talking talking about this in a in a theme recently, you know, trying to highlight the importance of the lower leg and the foot and the ankle and um and you know, but because there's more of a uh an emphasis usually put on people's glutes, right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and like the hip strength and and all of that.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: But like if if we take someone's bum muscles away, then their feet are gonna have a very difficult problem.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like everything is important, like it's it's you need you need to have both.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have uh bum then or musculature around your bum, you're gonna struggle to use your your feet.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think because yeah, because the lower leg, like Salays, for example, the flat calf muscle at the bottom of your leg, like that's dealing with really high levels of internal load when you're running, even at slow paces.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so having a foot that allows you to use that lower leg well is is a good idea, right?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's a good idea to not have some of these problems I referred to earlier, like the smaller bandwidth of available options to direct to deal with force.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: So if your foot is functioning well, like you've got good movement in your foot, um, you can get pressure into all parts of your foot.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: You you sort of load well through the tripod, if you like, the the big metatarsal head, little metatarsal and the heel, right?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: You've got good even distribution of pressure through there, you know, at at rest.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well then you know it's a good start point.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like the foot does two things, right?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or it makes two shapes.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: It goes from flattening or pronating into the the floor, like dealing with force, um, like absorbing or or taking your load as you land, versus propelling you forward, the opposite supination, creating an arch, creating stiffness to be able to propel you.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you you want to you want a foot that can do that as well, um and having good, I guess, strength through your toes, um good strength through these muscles that create stiffness around the midfoot, so the the um these longer tissues that actually run up the the lower leg, like the the um post-tib and um tibant, uh the these these deeper calf muscles, like they're all important, right?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you can you can do stuff that can can help to strengthen them.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and actually sometimes I wonder if it's yeah, look, we'll call it strength, but like a lot of times you'll see if you do a little bit of concentrated stuff, you know, say doing some big toe exercises, for example, where you're again using isometrics or things like that, where you're really creating a high level of force pushing into something.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, is this you know, are the are the adaptations you're getting necessarily true strength adaptations because you you notice change very, very quickly, right?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably just a heightened awareness, a sense that you can actually feel your your big toe now, you can get weighed into it, you can actually roll off it, or you can you can get into it to be able to propel yourself forward.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the one of the guys I've gotten lots of useful stuff from uh Roman Turian, he he's his PhD was in um I can't remember the exact title, but basically looking at four foot strength.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it was related to to people cutting, changing direction, you know, power sports, team sports kind of stuff.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: But they noticed massive changes in terms of to the way they measured strength increases in that part of the foot, doing a particular protocol.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: There was just three or four simple exercises, quite high levels of tension again, so you mostly ISO type exercises, but they notice big, big gains very, very quickly, like really, really big changes at 20 something percent increases and things like that over a short period of time.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I'm saying, like, I I think some of that will simply be people getting a little bit dissociated from their foot, like not not really being able to use it well, versus doing a little bit of this stuff and suddenly like just waking up the system and being able to to use it a little bit better, possibly.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what he would say about that, but yeah, that's how that would be kind of my thinking on it.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: We'll put in the the show notes those the links to those articles so people can have a little bit more knowledge and understanding.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: And the last thing in this part of the conversation, polls.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's they're things and items that some runners use, some don't, some use them badly, some don't, some talk about it being too much weight.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just talk a little bit about the technique of using polls.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: If again it's somebody that has just recently got into ultrarrunning or established runners, what are some of the important things to think about from a technique point of view that are good ways to be a little bit more aware of using them when you're using them?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think you could just start by using them, going out the door, yourself into it and see because you know, a lot of it's intuitive anyway, right?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just having seen other people use them, you'll probably it would it would probably be nice to just go and see what you make of them and form an initial impression without without labouring yourself with too much of sorry, apologies, without too much um thought going into it, right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then perhaps then once you you've had a bit of an experience with them, maybe then we we look at you know how to use them properly.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fan of so I'm a fan of a guy called Wolfgang Scholhorn who has come up with he would be a big name in the modal learning theory field, and he came up with his way of doing things, he's he's he he called it differential learning, right?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Where you're you're essentially doing things in a way that you might not necessarily you know isn't necessarily the correct way to do it, but but by varying how you do it.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So let's use an example with the poles, you might ask someone to write, we're gonna use this hundred meter stretch of hill, you're gonna go up the hill, say double polling, so using both poles at the same time, but you're gonna do it on a almost like you're on train tracks, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you're gonna plant on them very close together in front of you.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna do that, you're gonna come back down and just pay attention to how it how it feels, and then you're gonna go back up and you're gonna go very, very wide apart.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: And doing varying things like that is a nice way you're creating a learning environment because you're you're creating A contrast, right?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're asking someone to experience what it's like at two ends of a spectrum for a start.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're by asking that person to do a very specific thing and repeat it the whole time.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's very little learning because you've sort of taken that off the table by directing them to do it in a certain way.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they can't they can't calibrate for themselves what feels best.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you're creating a bit of noise in the system by um asking them to have all these varying experiences in the hope that they arrive at a solution for themselves.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there's lots of research on this stuff.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's done a lot of it, he's been doing this for 40 odd years, and he's he's won name like in a big field of research, right?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's and there's a lot of lot of different opinions out there and like lots of um competing theories in in that field, but he his stuff is is is pretty solid.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: And like just to give you if if I was asking someone to to do a session where we were going to work on their technique for using poles, well, it would look something like that.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like picking a stretch of hill, asking them to say, yeah, well first of all, we'll we'll pull quite close together, we'll pull quite far apart.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now I want it to pull wherever you like, but this time only use your elbows, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you you you want to almost lock your arms to your sides and just use your elbows.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I want it to take your arms away from your sides and use a straight arm, right?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Lock your elbow and do it that way.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: And like I know that they're going to feel like they don't have as much when they do this.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: They get a bit more here because they're allowed to use their their body, right?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're a bit bit more leverage.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know that they're probably going to feel like they get a bit more out of it doing it the um this way, but somewhere in in between is probably going to be gonna feel best, right?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they're gonna feel like they get most out of the pole.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not gonna explicitly say that to them because it there's no you've almost cut off them being able to experience that feeling.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: You've stopped them from from doing that.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: So as a learning mechanism, it it works well, and then you can vary it ten other different ways, right?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's a nice way of doing it, and I would do that with runners as well, like in terms of how they actually run, or that would be one one thing I think is is beneficial for them to use.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna say we don't have we don't know what's what the correct angle is for Jimmy or Johnny because Jimmy and Johnny have different length arms, right?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: They've different physical qualities baked into themselves.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it would be arrogant of me to think that I have the answer for Jimmy and Johnny and whoever else.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: They need to arrive at their own answer.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I know maybe some people are probably thinking, for Christ's sake, stop overcomplicating it.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's a right way and a wrong way, and just yeah, fine, if you want to go down that road and and do it that way, knock yourself out.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think people need to create a heightened awareness, feel contrast between one way and another way, and arrive at their solution for themselves.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's my bias.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll share the links that you talk about in those research papers in the show notes.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: And as we start to wrap up this conversation, and it's been great, and thank you for all your knowledge and expertise.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about prevention and early signs of of injuries.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything specific that if somebody in essence has a niggle or finds that they're not feeling 100%, are there any go or no-go signs that somebody that is running and ultra running should adhere or think about?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think, well, if you if you are working with someone, I think communicating that there's an issue is a good idea for a start, because then you've you you know, when you're experiencing something and you're doing it on your own and and you don't have a sounding board or anything like that, it can be difficult to know I do I push or do I not.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you're involved in this type of sport, chances are and chances are you're going to err on the side of I'll just crack on and I'll do it.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the the problem with that is that um eventually you're you're probably gonna get it wrong and and you're gonna make uh an issue slightly worse, right?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and and potentially set off a cycle that takes quite a long time to to come back from.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you do have another sound, if you do have a sounding board, or you have got a set of a set of criteria or rules that you can apply, then it makes it slightly easier.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: So like we I did a we have a group call there on a Monday with you know on various different topics, but one of those topics was was actually dealing with or we did a series of calls on pain and managing it, and the calls was on creating a set of criteria so that you you knew when to to take action.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously one of the criteria was was communicating it to to us, but another one was just having a a scale, right?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: So like if you've got a niggle and it's at one or two out of ten and it settles after you finish running and it's gone the next day and you can go running again, well then you're you're probably operating at a level that's acceptable in terms of the volume that you're uh doing um or the the particular type of training that you're doing.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if it's climbing and it's you know getting up to four or five and it's not settling within 24 hours, well then that's something that might need to be addressed a little bit more uh proactively.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, if it could mean just adjusting, like doing maybe you take hills out, for example, like if if hills are aggravating a knee, for example, downhills are aggravating a knee, well, obviously taking those out might might allow you to continue running.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because resting probably isn't like if if resting doesn't have to be the only option, well then it probably shouldn't be, right?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's it's uh a lot of a lot of people who are training are used to training on a consistent basis, you know, daily or or whatever, uh they probably feel worse if they if they don't train.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: So doing something would would be beneficial.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: So just having a set of criteria that you can apply and and hopefully that person understands that you know what that scale is and they're honest about like uh the score that they apply.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and look, that's that's the tricky thing with coaching, isn't it?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like getting people to communicate um uh in in a way that you know is fairly accurate.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: That honesty piece from the athletes that you coach is always an interesting one, isn't it?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because they either under-report or over-report, and it's getting them to be able to give you the information that you need to be able to give them the answers, but also the application that they then actually go and do that, and it doesn't become a series of well, I know you told me to do that, but I've gone and and done that.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I that's the beauty of problem solving, isn't it?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a constant puzzle that we're all trying to solve.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and look, we all get it wrong, and I definitely have have got it wrong and continue to get it wrong in terms of you know managing niggles and and things like that.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not really wanting to to back off because I like a lot of people doing this, I like doing it, right?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: So being yeah, being in a position where I can't do it is quite frustrating.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And like this is the thing with running injuries, they're they're not uh they're not really straightforward in terms of how they present, right?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like that some days they'll feel fine and other days they won't.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sometimes difficult to know should I run or should I not run.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it can be a difficult decision.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: So not it's it's not easy, right?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you if you got run into by a back row in rugby and you've got a massive bruise the size of your quad on your quad and it's sore to walk, well then it's fairly straightforward.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can't run, right?
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, with with running injuries, you know, there's this coordinative thing going on where like sometimes your body maybe just is in a better position to deal with it and the the the pain signal is is the knobs turned down if you like it's reduced, and other days, you know, whatever, bad night's sleep, a lot of training in the previous few days, that volume can be turned up and it can be difficult to um not catastrophise about it.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh catastrophization is always an interesting one, and we could go into this topic and spend hours on it.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: And just to wrap things up, I've got a couple of quick fire questions for you, and one that I always ask uh every guest.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, best piece of nutrition advice you could give to any athlete, what would it be?
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Eat more.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: That seems a constant theme.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Worst nutrition advice you still hear people giving others.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Look, uh it's not my realm really, but I guess any anything dogmatic, like anything that's telling you you need to do this real specific thing, none of none of that makes any sense because there's definitely an element of individuality to it.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: So anything really dogmatic.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if you were to look at a single most important drill to help prevent injury, what would that drill be?
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: One drill that you can suggest to everybody to do.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really a drill, but go to bed on time, get more sleep.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, a great one.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what was harder, the Lakeland 100 or being a dad?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've DNF'd the Lakeland 100 three times, but I don't suppose anyone will allow me to DNF the dad thing.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the dad thing so far is a little bit harder.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if you were to say to Matt or anybody listening from a strength point of view, go to the gym or doing it at home with free weights, what would your answer to that one be?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you can go to the gym and you're comfortable going, you probably have more options there, which is nice.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: But and and I sometimes think you're a bit more tuned in when you're in the the gym, you've got this period of time to use.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like training, whereas you can just slip into bad habits at home, or at least I can anyway.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'd probably say the gym, but I totally get it that people really don't like gyms as well.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone's currently injured or frustrated with a niggle, what's the one thing you'd want them to hear, or what should they do?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, be be proactive about it.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a solution there, and it might take a little bit of patience.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: Get someone in your corner who you think at least understands what's going on and trust them and actually invest a little bit in them.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'd I'm not I'm not trying to uh like it it's obviously expensive, you gotta pay someone to to you know deal with an injury or whatever, but I think sometimes people come in expecting you know that they've had a problem for five years and they expect you to sort it in an hour, and it's like that's not realistic.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like you you could argue that like if if you look at injuries, it's you're being coached out of the injury, right?
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're if you're injured, you need to spend a period of time, depending on what it is, dealing with that injury, and you're you're at point A, you need to get to point B.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like when you're training for a race, you need to to you know basically tick off certain milestones, and that's going to take a bit of time.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not here's five exercises, and once you do those for six weeks, the problem will be grand.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like that you need to bridge the gap between where you are right now and running.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: And usually those exercises that you do initially don't look anything like running, forces are way lower, there's no uh uh fast movement or anything like that, and you can't expect to just go from that to run it.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a pass of site, so yeah, and polls or no polls, worth it or not?
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, depending on the the situation or the race.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're great.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the last one, and this is the Friday of UTMB.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Who is your predictions on the men's and women's of you?
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh are you prepared to put your you know colours to the mast on this one and give me a men and women winner?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Not really.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't I don't think I I've got enough of an in-depth knowledge, but outside of that, I don't I don't think it's easy to predict anyway, there's too many variables.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I hope on the men's side anyway, I hope Josh Wade does it.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I d I honestly don't even I haven't looked at the starting fields of either race enough, so I would be just picking a name.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: I uh there's some obviously great athletes, both men's and women's in the the race, and there's another 20 or 30 that people at home don't know.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: And one of them is very likely to to do really, really well and you know, come out and over and and have a great race.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I hope I hope Josh on the men's side uh does it.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and thank you, Paul.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a brilliant conversation and one that I hope that everybody will take something from and understand injury prevention, the drills, and and the importance that strength training and the way that they approach their their training is.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you're an athlete and want to know more, they just go to missinglinkcoaching.co.uk to be able to reach out to you and understand how they could potentially work with you.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's it, exactly.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe on Instagram if we check in there.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, brilliant.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: And just to close, if you were to give just a general piece of advice to anybody kind of listing just a single kind of nugget, whether or not it's related to their training, what would your advice be?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it would be just to try and enjoy your training as much as possible.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if if you're not enjoying it, you you maybe need to identify why and put in place something that helps you to enjoy it a bit more.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, and I I'm assuming that anyone doing this as a sport does enjoy training, uh, or it would be a strange sport to be involved in.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, you've got to you've got to enjoy it.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're enjoying it, you're probably getting more benefit than than if you're not.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's that understanding your why, isn't it?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I doing this?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you understand that, you understand and can be enjoying things that you do.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: But Paul, thank you very much for your time.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's much appreciated.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've definitely learned a lot um from this.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: And uh thank you very much for your time.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're very welcome, Mel.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's lovely to chat here.