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SMNTY Interview: Katie Mitchell · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha a ky stuff. I
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you a production of iHeartRadio. And welcome back
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to the show. Katie Mitchell. It's been a minute, but
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: we are so glad to have you back. Can you
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: introduce yourself to our audience please?
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for having me back. I'm Katie Mitchell
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and I am the author of Prose to the People,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: a celebration of black bookstores.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, and last time you were on here, you were
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: with our good friend Eves talking about on theme and
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the power of black storytelling, and you mentioned that you
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: were working on this book about black bookstores and we
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: were like, yes, you muscome back, you complete it, and
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: here you are, and it's coming out as we record
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: this very very soon. First of all, congrats, Yes, it
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: is an amazing book and we'll be talking all about it.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: But can you give us the rundown of this book?
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I say, pro To the People is a exploration
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: of black bookstores across space and time. So I had
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to travel all around the country talking to
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: black bookstore owners, but I also included bookstores that no
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: longer exist. So the book starts in eighteen thirty, which
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: most people don't realize that we had black bookstores in
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: eighteen thirty and it goes all the way to present day.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: So I hope that people will look at the book
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: and say, oh, hey, I want to go to this
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: store when I'm in a particular city. But for the
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: ones that are closed, I wanted people to be able
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: to visit them in a way too.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is something that's correct me if I'm wrong,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: But that was very near and dear to your heart
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: and kind of your interests in what you do, right exactly.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, we were talking about black storytelling
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: last time I was on and so black bookstores of course,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: like Cradle all all of our stories. So I'm really
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: excited about pros being almost out into the world. And yeah,
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I'm a bookseller along with my mom, so I thought
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: it was a perfect fit to bring this book to
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: the people.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, and there were definitely some stores that were in
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: there because we were all in Atlanta, and I was like, yes,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I want to go and check this out. Can you
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: tell us what made you decide to write this book.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: I think it was just like a deep curiosity. I've
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: seen how transformational black bookstores have been to myself, and
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I see them as transformational as say black churches or
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: black colleges. But I found that they were understudied institutions,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: which I found ironic because they cradle all our history
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: and we haven't told the history of the Black bookstore yet,
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: And so that led me to want to learn more
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: and to share it with others.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: And it's as you said, it was quite the process.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: It sounds like that you spent these two years traveling,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: you talked to a wide variety of people. How was
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: that process for you and what are some of the
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: places that maybe stand out?
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot of people, owners, customers, family members,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: you know. I had one instance in Atlanta where I
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: was just talking about the book and I was saying
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: that this bookstore in Harlem called Liberation Bookstore was in
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: the book. And she was like, oh, yeah, like that's
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: my auntie And I was like huh.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: And I was telling her how.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Like I couldn't get pictures for that store because pros
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: is filled with pictures and e Femerara, it's very visual
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and designed book. And I was telling her I was
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: having a hard time finding pictures and she was like,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I have pictures, and I was like, oh, can you
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: bring them like tomorrow. She's like yeah, and she like
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: gave me the original pictures. I was like, no, it's okay,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I'll just take a scan of it. She's like, no,
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: I want you to have it. I want it to
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: be in the book. And so it was like kind
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: of those like very like serendipitous encounters that made me
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: feel like the book was just like supposed to happen,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: you know, like meeting people who are just so willing
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: to help with the book. But yeah, traveling across the
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: country and talking to people like I met so many
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: elders who like really told me so much about what
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: was going on in the sixties and you know, the seventies, eighties, nineties,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: and that was really helpful too to get their perspective.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: And some of them had even written about black bookstores
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: from like the eighties and nineties, so that was helpful
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: to incorporate that in the book and to be able
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: to share their work in my was really fun.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was so cool. You went, you
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: went all over This is amazing. Was there something that
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: you learned during your travels that really stuck with you.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I kind of knew about
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: the bookstore, but it kept coming up in the reporting
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: was the connection to incarcerated people. And a lot of
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: the bookstores have a component where they're making sure that
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: books are getting to our incarcerated siblings. And that goes
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: back from the sixties or even at the beginning, because
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: the first black bookstore owner in the United States was abolitionists,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: so he was freeing people, like freeing the bodies and
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: minds at the same time, right, And so I found
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: that black bookstore owners really tried to take care of
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: those who are incarcerated and people that the state attempts
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: to disappear from our communities. So you'll find that at
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Radical Hood Library in la which is owned by the
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: rapper No Name, and even the Black Book Who which
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: was owned by Paul Coates Twnahasecoats's dad in Baltimore. So
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: he had a program where he was sending books to
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: incarcerated black panthers and making sure that they knew what
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: was going on in the outside. So and that's something
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: that I found really unique to black bookstores, right, Like
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: you don't really hear about like grocery stores or even
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: museums or you know, dentist offices really caring about what's
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: going on with folks in prison in a in a
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: collective way. So that was one thing that I learned.
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: Wow, Like that's an incredible level of history that I
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: didn't even think on, and that makes so much sense
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: in just in general, like the tight knit community that
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: these bookstores have built, Like just the fact that you
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: in Atlanta are connecting to people in Harlem just in
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: conversation in a bookstore, which is amazing. And you also
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: so earlier talked about the fact that it is an institution,
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: that the black bookstores are an institution in itself. So
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: can you kind of elaborate and define black bookstores and
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: can you give us a brief history and the importance
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: that they have left and continue to do.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I define black bookstores in prose to the
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: people as a bookstore that specializes in black publications. And
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I make the distinction between a black bookstore and a
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: black owned bookstore, which a black owned bookstore could be
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: just a black person who owns a book store that
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: carries all types of books that don't specialize in black publications.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: And yeah, they started, to the best of our knowledge
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: with David ruggles in the eighteen thirties and abolitionists who
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: actually helped free Frederick Douglas. Him and his first wife
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: were married at his bookstore, little known fact. And I
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: think that set the tone for black bookstores in the
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: United States of being sites of liberation. And we see
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: this throughout history as black bookstores being at the van
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: guard of social movement, so the abolitionist movement, the civil
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: rights movement, the Black panther, black power movement, black arts movement,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: and now the movement for Black Lives. In Harlem, Malcolm
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: X had his home bookstore, and like all the pictures
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: that you see of him out in the street in Harlem,
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: he's usually in front of that bookstore, you know, gathering
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: people and trying to you know, get people to change
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: their minds as he's trying to change society.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you you talk a lot about how they
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: serve as much more than a bookstore, like they offer
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: these places for social ideas, but also things like yeah,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: getting books two incarcerated people and just how that really
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: sets them apart. And on top of that, you just
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: you have so many amazing, amazing stories in here with
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: just this wide range of bookstores, some that specialize and
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: maybe like cook books or children's literature or a sci
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: fi book vending machine. How did you choose? How did
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: you choose these stores?
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a doozy.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: I think when I proposed the book, I was like, yeah,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: I don't have like twenty four stores, it'll be cool.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: And then of course, once you go down the rabbit
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: hole of actually doing the research, so many more stores
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: make it into the book. But I really focused on
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: that definition of specializing in black publications, and I think
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: as a journalist a lot of it is access. So
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: who did I have access to, who was a cooperative source,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: who showed up to the interviews, things like that on
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: a practical level, and then yeah, like trying to make
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: an even distribution of regions, but then also including, like
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: you said, those specialty stores to show the different ways
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: that black booksellers show up and you know, showcase their
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: interest through their inventory, I thought would be really cool.
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: It's so good. And when I'm reading through this, they're like,
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: you had specialized bookstores and one it says to the
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: black girls, specifically to the black girls, And it was
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: such an amazing like ideal, like, yes, this is something
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: that is set up for a welcome community where a
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: lot of times they may not feel like they are welcome.
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: Like we talk about women in stem and all the time,
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: and like how long it took in general to feel
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: like they could be a part of that industry or
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: that community in general. But with all of that, some
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: of these stories are so great and based around black women.
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: Can you share one with us or something that listeners
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: can look forward to? Specifically? I kind of gave you
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: one away, I know.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the one you're referencing is called a Done. It's
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: in Bedstye in New York, and her story is really cool.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: I liked it because it was so eclectic. She had
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: her father's like oh vinyls. I was like, oh, could
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I have that? And she's like, girl, no, this day
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: is like stop planning. But she has like really cool
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: events there. They do like a lot of like things
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: with plans and just like very hands on like sewing
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: things and like crafty things, which I think, like is
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: really cool because sometimes when you're like in adulthood, you're
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: like over the club, like let's just hang out at
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: the bookstore and have a good time and meet friends.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: And while I was there, I could see people like
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: becoming friends, like sharing their birth charts and stuff. I
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: was like, this is so girly, but I loved it
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: because it's like that's what, that's who it was meant for,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: and I could see it happening in real time. Another
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: one that I thought was really fun was the sci
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: fi book vending machine, which is just such a great idea,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: especially with like rent being so high and not every
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: community has a brick and mortar bookstore, but being able
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: to be able to provide books that are really curated
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: and thoughtful in a small space I think is really cool,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: and like they're into sci fi, it gives a little
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: of sci fi energy having a book vending machine there too.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: So those are two that I think readers will really enjoy.
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I thought about Annie in
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: that moment because I was like, she would love this.
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: I do the sci fi vending machines coming in using
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: a machine to get to it. Anyway, I was having
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: a fun time reading through these. These are such an
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: amazing inventive like innovative ideas and distributing books because it
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: needs more and more of these things. And with that, like,
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: as I'm looking through all of the pictures. First of all,
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't know why. Immediately, the smell of
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: an old bookstore hit me the minute I opened up
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: your book, Like look through your book, I was like, wow,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: I can smell it. I can fill the arthiness when
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: you walk into the comforting areas with all the books
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: surrounding you.
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie.
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: It's one of my favorite things to do is to
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: peruse all the titles and just smell the old books.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: There's something to it. And with that, I know that's
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: something that you've been complimented, and like this book has
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: already been celebrated because of these beautiful images. Can you
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: talk about all these pictures that you came and then
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: of course the ending picture like with you with all
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: the different people that you've met through out your tour
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: was so cool. But anyway, can you talk about the
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: images in your book?
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean when I said out to write Pros,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: I wanted it to feel like a bookstore. So that's
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a very high compliment you just gave me. But like
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: when you go into a bookstore, you don't just hear
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: from one person, you don't just see one thing. So
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be filled with multiple voices, multiple genres,
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: and multimedia, because I wanted people to feel like they
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: were in a black bookstore while reading it and to
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: understand that comfort. So even in the some of the
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: bookstores that don't exist, I'm always asking them like, what
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: did it smell?
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Like? What were y'all saying? What were y'all talking about?
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: Was there a fried chicken place there? Did the smell
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: come in?
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: I was really trying to capture what it felt to
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: be in those stores, and that was the goal from
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: the beginning. I was lucky enough to be able to
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: go into archives and find old pictures from the stores
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: that don't exist, or like I said, some people would
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: just off up their pictures. There's a lot of ephemeris,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: so you see like the flyers and the brochures that
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: people were putting out for their bookstores and different events
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: that were going on at the time. But yeah, I
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: wanted it to be very interactive and something that you
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: can come back to multiple times and find something new
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: each time.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: I will say also, one of the things that really
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: permeated throughout these pictures is just the joy. There was
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: so much joy in having people celebrate their own books
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: and the releases or sitting with people that they love
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: the picture specifically, I think it's like Rosa Defie, Yes,
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: and like all the people that came through her path
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: and like her smile. There was so much joy in
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: these images, and you did such a fantastic job and
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: relaying their stories, and I know you had like interviewed
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: a lot of them. Was that something important that you
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: wanted to show in showcase?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to capture everyone's personality, and I think
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: oftentimes those black stories sometimes we only get shined when
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: something's like very terrible is going on. And I was like,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: this isn't that, Like this is a celebration, and you know,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: being in the community, I understand that, like guess, bad
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: things do happen, but like we're not always like in turmoil.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: We do have joy. We are celebrating, we're with our
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: friends and family, you know, we're listening to future and
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: just hanging out sometimes. And that's what I wanted to
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: capture with those interviews.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: Well done, Thank you.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Yes, it definitely gives the vibe of I've stepped into
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: a bookstore, which is really awesome. Because Samantha and I
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: we like when we travel together, we always go to
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: bookstores and we go to libraries. It's just we love it.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: So this is this is such a great, a great concept,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: and it's something Yeah, I think a lot of people
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: don't know about. One of the things you talk about
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: in here, and people you interviewed talked about a lot,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of discussion around knowledge being power,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: the power of learning, the power of teaching that knowledge.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Can you expound on that a little bit.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: In the introduction, which was written by Nikki Giovanni, she says,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: pro to the people reminds us that black is beautiful,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: but knowledge is power, and that is a quote from
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: one of the preeminent booksellers, Lewis Michau. And I think
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: what we're getting at is that black books, but books
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: in general, are very liberating. And in this country, the
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: project of black reading, black writing, black publishing, there's always
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: been tension there. It was illegal for us to read
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: when we were enslaved here, and now you see book
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: bands disproportionately affecting black books, and there's something there where
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: they attack the whole project of black thought. And so
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I think, as black people, we know the importance of
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: books and reading and knowledge and passing that down, and
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: we understand if we don't keep that tradition going, what
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: could happen and what those who do not want to
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: see us flourish would like to happen. And I think
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: that's a trend or a through line that you see
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: from the eighteen thirties with David Ruggles as the first
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: black bookstore owner to current day.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Yes, well, speaking of current day, this is jumping ahead
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: a bit in our outline of question, but the book
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: does have a lot of discussion as well about the
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: importance of history. And as you said, right now we're
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: seeing such an active pushback on teaching black history and schools,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: we're seeing so many book bands, So can you speak
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: to that and why it's this preserving of history and
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: these the black book stores that are doing it is
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: so vital right now?
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the story of the Black
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: book Store is unfolding in past and present tense, like
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: with the book, showing the book stories that no longer
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: exist in conversation with those that do. It's the same
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: with our history. And if you don't know what happened
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: before and what the state or the powers that be
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: did to try to stop the people that came before us.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: You can think like, oh.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Wow, this is so bad, like no one's ever gone
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: through this, like what are we going to do? But
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: the less sins are right there, Like book bands aren't new. Really,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: they're kind of tame compared to what you know, the
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: FBI was doing before. There's so many instances of black
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: bookstores being firebombed and flooded. Black booksellers have been arrested, framed,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: and you know there's something too. Knowing that you, as
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: a black person reading or selling books is so threatening
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: and you think, what are in these books that they
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: don't want us to read? And to me makes me
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: want to read them more. It makes me want to
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: know more. But yeah, it's been happening and it's still
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: happening unfortunately, but we are our elders and our ancestors
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: have shown us what we need to do.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the like good news bad news situation of
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: like we've seen this before. It's been bad, but we
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: know we can do this because we have survived this
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: and we being so many marginalized people, but specifically of
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: the black community, and it's kind of and I've seen
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: it in the black community here in Atlanta and where
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: they're just like, yeah, it's been happening. Where have you been,
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: Like to the rest of the community and be like,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: we've been doing the work. Now you're just noticing it.
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: And it's a reminder and that both of these things
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: is why not only do the black community and your
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: book and so much more that celebrate them pushing back
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: And it's to that point of understanding that part of
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: the rebellion is celebrating and making sure that we are
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: still acknowledging what is happening and how that that you exist,
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: we as a system exist and will not be tied
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: down or quiet. And I love that that's what this
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: book seems to represent. It's such a perfect timing and
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: bringing this type of joy but understanding and power of learning,
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: and the fact that you're giving us an amazing list
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: because I know you talked about so many of them,
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: but then in the later part of the book you
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: give even more. You're like, oh, yeah, I only talked
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: about these things these stores, but there's so much more,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: And that's powerful in itself.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think being able to have a record of
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: what has been done is really cool. Even some of
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: the bookstores that I have full profiles of have closed
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: since my reporting, but it's like, this is a snapshot
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: of what was going on during this time. This is
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: what we were thinking, this is what we are doing.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: And then having the list in the back I thought
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: was important to show the ones that are going on now,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: like I called it, like more to explore, and then
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: the ones that have closed, the list of those to
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: say like we were here, we did this, this was
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: the project that all of these stores and all these
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: people were a part of.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: And the way the internet is going.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Out, how they're just a racing stuff left and right,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Like we need something printed and tangible so we can
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: have that.
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: Yes, and this is such a great asset.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well I know you've been you've been talking about
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: this throughout. But why do you think that it is
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: so important that we do keep this history? Why is
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: it Why are black bookstores in black libraries so important?
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, as I said, they hold our histories and
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: they deserve for their histories to be told. They've done
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: so much in each movement in the United States that
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: have involved black people, and they're still out here doing
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: a lot, a lot of work. Many of the booksellers
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: have printing presses where they're putting out information themselves. That
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: was something that I saw as a trend between like
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: the sixties and nineties that that was really important to people.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: And I think that kind of is what pros is about,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: like putting out your own story. I was very lucky
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: that people trusted me to tell this story, but I
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: do think it came about because of like who I am.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I'm a black bookseller, and I'm telling the story of
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: black booksellers. And I think it's important to tell your
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: own story and tell it as authentic as possible, and
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: like you said, like capturing the full breath of it,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: like not just the pain, but also celebrating that joy
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: as well. I love that.
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: And just because we have to ask, I think we
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: talked about this a little last time. You were on
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: about the book writing process in general. How was that
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: for you? I know you weres a different because you
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: actually were able to be more interactive and traveling, but
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: that could also be more stressful in trying.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: To do that.
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: I was the writing process for you?
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I mean I have of course not written anything like
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: this before. It was a lot of research. I think
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: before my writing had been kind of like more source
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: person and I tried to keep myself as out of
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: it as possible. I like peek in a little bit
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: at some point with booksellers that I got like super
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: close with, but that was different. And then also I
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: have contributors who are in the book, who wrote essays
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: and poems, and so that was a new experience of
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: being an editor while I'm being a writer too, and
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: kind of walking them through what I know will be
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the end result because there isn't there hasn't been a
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: book like this before, so telling people like, yeah, I'm
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: doing anthology on black bookstores, and I kind of have
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: the vision in my head, but trying to get them
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: to the point where their piece will fit into that
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: seamlessly was a different experience. But I think it worked
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: out so well. I'm so happy with all the contributors.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: They're so smart. I have such deep relationships to these bookstores.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: We have people who are biographers of certain booksellers, people
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: who were managers past managers of the bookstores. So they
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: really have like these deep relationships, and I think it
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: shines through too.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: No, you did an amazing job incorporating different styles into
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: one book. Like you're having an interview and you were
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: having an essay and you were having the poetry. I
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: was like, wow, and then you're doing the excerpts and
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: the pictures of like she's just trying to do it
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: all fitting all that in the one book, and kudos
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: it looks a I.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Was like, I'm going to be Lauren Hill, do my
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: do my big one on my first one and be out.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: I have a feeling this is not going to be
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: the only one.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: This is so good. That's that's what some people are saying.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: Just just putting it out there. I'm just gonna you know,
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: that's my prediction, but I'm just gonna well.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I also love that so much too, because it does
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: go back to the you know, making it feel like
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: you're in a bookstore. Here's all these different types of
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: writing you can find. Yeah, it was just great because
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yes, I want to go I
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: maybe want to go read a bunch of books, like check.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Out a bunch of books or something bookstore.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Even some of the contributors like they don't agree with
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: each other. And I like that too, because you go
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: into a bookstore, there's going to be a book that
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: says like this guy is orange, and it's gonna one
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: there's gonna be one that says the sky is blue,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: and you get to read both and decide for yourself
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: what color is this guy. So there's different different opinions,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: a diversity of thought throughout, and I think someone will
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: find something that really speaks to them throughout the book.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: One of the like Nerdier points I latched onto because yes,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Samantha and I have gone through the book writing process,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: is that there was a discussion about kind of the
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: whole ecosystem of books, about like the publisher, the owner,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: the libraries, the authors, and how these all these pieces
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: work together are don't and how people view how it
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: should work or how it should look versus how it does.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts about that?
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so a lot of the booksellers, I'd say, in
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: like the sixties, we're also doing publishing, and then I
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: think a little bit after that the book signing, kind
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: of author celebrity of it all came together. So it's
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: interesting to see the different ways it has evolved. So
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I'm talking to a bookseller who had a store in
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: the sixties. I was like, Oh, what were your author events?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Like it's like author events. We didn't do that type
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: of stuff. We were selling books and publishing books. And
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: then I'm talking to someone in the nineties they're like, yeah,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Terry McMillan saved our store, you know, Waiting to Excel.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: We sold a million copies of that.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: It was great.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: And so it's like kind of seeing those trends and
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: kind of seeing things that you might take for granted,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: like oh, yeah, of course these bookstores are doing author
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: events multiple times a week, but like that hasn't always
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: been the case. Seeing the importance people put on publishing
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: your own work and like having a press and being
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: able to say what you want to say and not
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: having to deal with like the big publishing houses was
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: something that I saw that people saw to be important.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: And now you know, people are like fighting against Amazon,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: which hasn't always been the case in the bookselling world.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: And like now there's bookshop that's trying to you know,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: help out with the indie booksellers and go.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Against Amazon too.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: So it's a lot of moving parts and they're all
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: working together or against each other. But yeah, we touch
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: on all of that in pros. But yeah, it's like
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: a little like insider thing if you've been in the
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: book industry, You're like, oh, yeah, I know about that.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: I love that You're gonna get the book world that
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: you never knew what existed exactly, the little beef that's
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: happening behind the scenes. You're like, well, I didn't think
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: about that. You forget about the fact that there was
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: like whole press like they were releasing their own books,
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: and like the level of independent authors who will trying
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: to just get their pamphlet out there or like the
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: novella's out there to make a point. So it's really
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: interesting to think on that, especially when you go through
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: the historical context of bookstores and publishing books and then
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: like fighting in civil rights eras and what that looks like,
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: and then what that looks like for today in the
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: midst of like literal attack on the black community, like
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: saying that black history should not exist because it makes
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: us sad. Like that's a whole different conversation. But the
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: importance of trying to support those businesses, And I know
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: this seems like an obvious question, but with everything outside
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: of just buying from these independent bookstores and supporting these bookstores,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: what can we as those that would like to be
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: seen as allies, what can we do to make sure
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: that we are supporting these businesses if it's not just
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: by visiting them.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one way that I say it would
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: be like the most sustainable is to make them a
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: part of your normal life. Like not just like, oh,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: like this really popular books coming out out, buy it
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: from a black bookstore, which is great, But like I said,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: they're doing these events every week. They have reading circles,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: you know, they're bringing in authors, they're having writing salons.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: So kind of making it a part of your life
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: in a way that fits naturally, so you don't feel like, oh,
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: I'm doing like this charitable thing, Like no, I'm getting
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: something out of it, the bookstores getting something out of it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: I'm really embedding into my community. I think is the
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: best way to do it. And even like going back
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: to like the book ecosystem. One thing that I thought
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: was interesting was even in the sixties, the big box
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: stores were stealing from the black bookstores. They would like
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: go in, write down what they had, and then there'd
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: be a display of flip black books there. So kind
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: of being cognizant of what these big box stores and
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Amazon are doing because you kind of might think like, oh,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: the big guys aren't even paying attention to the little guys.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: But the little guys are you know, on the ground,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: they know the community and can really curate. And then
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: you know, the big bohemos can just like take, take,
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: take and scale it to a way that makes it
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: so that the indis can't compete.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: So, being like a little bit more.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Aware of how you're supporting people and their business practices.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Well, on top of that, is there something that as
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: you know you're closing this chapter of this book is
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: coming out, is there something that you're really hopeful for
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: in terms of black bookstores and or trends that you're
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: hoping will come about.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I hope black bookstores. I would like
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: to see them on every corner. They're a lot in
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: the book, but when you like travel around, you know,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: they're kind of few and far between, and I think
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: they should be there, should be more, They should be supported.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: And I would love to see someone you know, write
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: another book about black bookstores and include the onest weren't included,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: and like continue this work of celebrating the black bookstore
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: as an institution and you know, highlighting what we've done
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: in the community.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: That would be something that I think is really nice.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. And for you yourself, do you have any
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: projects on the horizon that you're excited about.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I am about to go on tour, so that
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: is my next project.
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: Kicking it off.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: In Atlanta at the Georgia Center for the Book on
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: the eighth, So maybe i'll see you all there.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: All right, I'm rinning it down the eighth of April.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Eighth of April, Georgia Center for the Book, seven pm. Yeah,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: and I'll be in around the city. I'll be in Washington,
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: d C. Philadelphia, and New York, so focusing on that
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: and then we'll see what happens from there.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, so well you might want to take a break
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: after that, but that sounds amazing.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: I see a break in my future. Yes, with you.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: Being Yeah, you and your mom working like booksellers yourself.
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: What did your mom say about this book? I need
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: to know as she read it.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's read it. She got to see it early.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: And because like when I was writing it, I would
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: just like go to the library, I would like write
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: it longhand and like a notebook and people are just
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: like what are you doing? Like You're always not like, yeah,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: doing something like super secret, and then she saw it.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: She's like, oh, this is what you've been doing. Like
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: this is so nice. And I don't know if y'all notice,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: but like in some parts of the book you'll see
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: like handwriting that's actually my mom's handwriting. So yeah, I
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: love her handwriting. So I was like, let me get
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: you to write these pull quotes and the dedication. So
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: having a little piece of her in there too, it
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: has been fun. But yeah, she loves it. She's so excited.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: She was like, you did it. I'm so proud of you,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Like this is big. It's big, Katie.
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm not gonna lie. Having her being
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: a part of that book, it just makes me so
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: emotional for you. That's amazing. And I love that, like
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: the bond between you and that you have that in
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: your first book as like a memento for both of you.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you, well, Thank you so much Katie for
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: joining us today, for coming back on. We would love
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: to have you anytime. Congrats again about the book. Where
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: can the good listeners find you?
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: They can find you on Instagram. I'm at good books
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: ATL on Instagram, and if you want to keep up
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: with the book. It's prostothpeople dot com.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it comes out April eighth, correct.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: April eighth. There is a pre order incentive and you
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: get a cute little lapel pin that mimics the book,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: but you got to get it in before April eighth.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, I love, I love a good incentive. Well, thank you,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much, Katie and listeners go
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: check out the book.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: It is amazing. Thank you, And if you would like
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: to contact us, you can.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: You can email us at Hello at stuffwenevertold you dot com.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: You can find us on Blue Sky at mom Stuff
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: podcast or Instagram and TikTok and stuff we Never told you.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have tea public store, and
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: we have a book you can get wherever you get
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: and executive producer Maya and your contributor Joey. Thank you,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told you
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the production my Heart Radio. For more podcast from my
• 35:22
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• 35:23
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