Latest / The Twin History Podcast / The American Civil War: Part 6: Robert Gould Shaw and the Glory of the 54th at Fort Wagner

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The American Civil War: Part 6: Robert Gould Shaw and the Glory of the 54th at Fort Wagner · The Twin History Podcast

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Just a quick message and a thanks to our listeners before
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our 6th and final part on the American Civil War.
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The Twin History Podcast will be taking a break next week, but we
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will return two weeks today with our first of two parts on the
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Zodiac Killer. Now back to the American Civil
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War. The Twin History Podcast brings
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together 2 Black Scotsman, 2 twins, one historian and one
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storyteller to explore the moments that shaped our world.
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The show features Joe McCann, the eldest twin and resident
0:37
storyteller, the one always asking why any of this shit
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actually matters, alongside Johnny McCann, 13 minutes
0:46
younger and the historian. Equipped with the dates, the
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fact and the receipts, every week they invite listeners to
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pull up a chair as they unpack some of history's greatest
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tales. The ones you think you know, the
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ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
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told by them. Enjoy.
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This is a twin history podcast. Thank you for joining us.
1:48
For our last. Episode on the American Civil
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War Johnny. We made it our last episode on
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the Civil War, so during this we were thinking it might go over 6
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episodes, but we've managed to condense it into six, yeah.
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We thought it may go to 8 episodes, but 6 is a good
2:08
number. It is a very good number.
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But Ken Burns did 10. We do six.
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Yes, we'll do six. OK.
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And what are we talking about today, Johnny, in our final
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episode on the American Civil? War Our final episode will be on
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the 54 of Massachusetts, the most famous black regiment from
2:28
the American Civil War. Why were they the most famous?
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Because of their actions at Fort Wagner.
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OK, we'll get into that. Are we just going to jump
2:38
straight into it today then? Yes.
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Why not? How did your double bill go?
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Obviously, that happened all right.
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You don't get around to watching it.
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No. OK, all right, We can just get
2:52
straight into it then. And when we discussed in
2:55
previous episodes was Frederick Douglass and he personally
2:59
recruited men for the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment
3:03
is that? Correct.
3:04
Yes, it did. Yeah.
3:06
That's it. You don't want to divulge
3:09
further? Yeah.
3:12
His, both of his sons, they joined the regiment and he took
3:18
a personal interest and not just for the 54th, but black soldiers
3:23
being recruited. So obviously, as far as I'm
3:28
aware, he lived in Boston at that time.
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So the regiment was raised in Boston and a lot of the men who
3:34
were recruited came from Boston and from Massachusetts and the
3:39
surrounding States and many of them came from as far away as
3:44
Canada. Douglas was crucial in this
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recruitment process at the start.
3:49
So the regiment, 75% of the men were born 3.
3:53
Most of them were literate and they argued that if qualified,
3:59
the black soldiers should be able to become commissioned
4:02
officers. And the union argued otherwise.
4:06
The Union did argue otherwise. Jordan Part 4 I spoke about
4:10
Charles S Thorin. So Charles S Thorin, he had LED
4:14
a combat division at the Battle of Wall of State and after that
4:17
he was made a Lieutenant. And if you want.
4:21
And the 54th? And the 54, Darren had been
4:24
promoted to a Lieutenant after the battle was the which the 54
4:28
took part in during the occupation of Jacksonville.
4:31
Darren took part in the occupation of Jacksonville and
4:36
he wrote home to his parents just about what was going on.
4:39
So just about the conditions on the ground, about his peers,
4:43
about the enemy soldiers. And one of his letters, this is
4:47
just part of it, he wrote. I've had the opportunity to try
4:51
my success in command of a company of men in action.
4:54
I got along very well considering that there was one
4:58
officer when there should be 3. So that was one of the things he
5:02
said. We'll get into glory because it
5:04
obviously ties up to the 54th of Massachusetts.
5:07
But one thing the fellow disgracefully did was they
5:11
ignored the evidence, the historical evidence that had
5:14
been left by the men of the regiment and the best, the
5:19
fellow on the letters or some of the letters that the commander
5:25
of the regiment has sent. Robert Goldshaw.
5:29
Yeah, Robert. Goldshaw So he sent them again
5:32
to his parents. He sent them to his wife.
5:35
Although they've been lost, those letters have never been
5:38
found. And he sent them to one of his
5:40
friends who he served with and another battalion before he took
5:44
leadership of the 54th Massachusetts.
5:47
Can we talk a little more? We'll go on to show, but can we
5:50
talk a little more about the the regiment being established?
5:55
Yes, of course. OK.
5:57
Can you tell us more about that then?
5:59
It was Andrew's idea to recruit black soldiers in Massachusetts,
6:03
so it was his idea to form the regiment.
6:06
So you had both the 54th and the 55th of Massachusetts, both
6:12
primarily black regiments. But isn't our important
6:17
distinction here that they weren't the first black
6:20
regiment? I believe we discussed that in a
6:23
previous episode, but. You're correct, they weren't the
6:26
first black regiment. The first black regiment in the
6:29
American Civil War was the first of South Carolina and they
6:33
mainly were made-up of freed slaves.
6:35
So they were formed in May of 1862 and they saw action at Port
6:42
Hudson, which we spoke about in the last episode.
6:46
And they also, they saw action. Americans bent.
6:50
OK. And there was there resistance
6:52
to the 54 being established in the North?
6:56
We went into that in Episode 4. I mean the general
7:00
discrimination that black regiments would face.
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So the 54 would have been no exception for this.
7:06
They would have faced the same level of discrimination.
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And can you tell us when the 54 were established?
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This would have been March of 63, spring of 63.
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The 54th was established at that time.
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So this, as we said, after Ann Tatum, you had the Emancipation
7:28
Proclamation and by January of 1863 this is being enacted.
7:33
So this is when we see the regiments being assembled, OK.
7:39
So the 54th is not the first black regiment, but there is.
7:44
A. There is a.
7:46
Misconception that they. Were that misconception comes
7:49
from the film Glory because they're shown to be the first
7:52
black regiment in the American Civil War and it says at the end
7:56
with the screen text that after this many black regiments were
8:00
formed. Given the Fog's impression that
8:02
the 54th had been the first regiment.
8:06
Although they definitely, with their actions at Fort Wagner,
8:09
they definitely inspired a lot more black Union soldiers or
8:13
black men to join the Union Army.
8:15
We're we won't go to Fort Wagner yet, Is there anything more we
8:19
should discuss about this regiment being established?
8:23
There were over 1000 volunteers to the regiment when it was
8:26
formed, so a lot of eager black men looking to do their part in
8:34
their Sovereign Reverend from the awful oppression of slavery.
8:40
So 1000 men sign up. Who are the officers in the
8:43
regiment? Are they black men?
8:45
Are they white? Men.
8:47
They're white men. So Governor John Andrew, he
8:50
basically handpicks white officers, but he selects them on
8:53
the basis that they are staunch abolitionists and they are
9:00
opposed to slavery and they see blacks as equals.
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But Andrew does not believe that black men are capable of leading
9:08
the this regiment. I don't know if he believes
9:11
they're not capable. I just He knows that the
9:14
regiment probably wouldn't get off the ground if he insisted
9:17
that the officers were. Black, so it becomes more
9:20
palpable to the Union to to have white officers.
9:25
If it was an old black regiment led by black men, then it would
9:29
never have got off the ground. You would never have been able
9:31
to raise it. So two of the officers are
9:35
Edward and Penrose Halliwell. So interestingly, Robert
9:41
Goldshaw, who's the Colonel who goes on to lead the 54th, he
9:46
offered to resign at one point in a letter to Governor Andrew.
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It was over supply issues and he suggested that Edward Halliwell
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replace him. Who was Edward Halliwell?
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He was one of the officers who was part of the regiment, so
10:00
obviously he was a very capable man.
10:03
Like Shaw, he was an abolitionist.
10:06
So who was Robert Gold Shaw? Can we get into a little into
10:09
his background? So Shaw was the son of wealthy
10:13
abolitionists in Boston. So he's very well educated.
10:20
He, as I said, he left a written record of his exploits before
10:26
the Civil War, during the Civil War.
10:29
And they are now placed in Harvard, taught in library, and
10:34
they were printed after he died. But as I said, the letters to
10:38
his wife, they're missing. We don't know where they are.
10:41
Maybe they'll turn up one day. That would be a great historical
10:43
find. But he's a more complex figure
10:46
than the one who's shown in glory as played by Matthew
10:51
Brodry. And what reviews the best of her
10:53
performance. We.
10:55
Can get into that one. We'll get into that.
10:57
Did you did Shaw fight in any of the major conflicts before
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joining the 54th? So Shaw had been part of the
11:04
Second Massachusetts Infantry. So a lot of the letters that we
11:10
have on record, he sent them to his friend Charles F Morse, who
11:15
was part of that infantry for the entirety of the Civil War.
11:20
Shaw was stationed with him between 1861 and until February
11:25
63 and he fought during that time at Antietam.
11:28
OK, what was his? What did he say about Antietam?
11:31
Well, that's a good question, He wrote of antitomen.
11:36
One of the things he wrote was a message directly from his
11:39
letters. Hookers and Manfield's attack on
11:43
the right was intended only as a faint, which would have cut off
11:46
their retreat to the Fords and driven them into the river.
11:50
He was very critical of Hooker, who led the Union army at that
11:54
time at Antiram. So Hooker got so sharply engaged
11:59
that Summer had to be sent his support instead of being held
12:03
for a grand attack on the centre.
12:05
This gives me a different idea to the barrel from what I had
12:08
before, and it explains its plan.
12:11
So let's not get into the mechanics of his of military
12:16
tactics 'cause I don't know what you meant by that, but that's
12:20
what Shaun was writing. Yeah, I have.
12:22
I don't know why you meant by that, but that's what.
12:24
Shaun yeah, I have no clue either what you meant and was
12:27
Shaw winded that Antietam or? Not sure if he was wounded and
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Antietam is shown as being wounded in the film but he he
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served the Antietam so after that he was offered the
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leadership of the 54th by Governor Andrew.
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But why Shaw? Why Shaw?
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Why did they offer him the leadership?
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Because of his father's connections, also because of
12:52
what he had done at Antietam and he when he wrote to Shaw Lee
12:56
Moss about the 54th he said he'd been offered the commands as a
13:02
*** Colonel for Governor Andrews Black Regiment.
13:06
So yeah, you said he was a complex man.
13:08
I wanted to ask what his thoughts were then being offered
13:11
the command of this regiment. That's what he said he was.
13:15
Obviously, he was happy to be offered the command of a
13:19
regiment. Was he an abolitionist while he
13:21
was he using such language? It was just at the time even
13:26
abolitionists would use such language when he first got the
13:30
regiment, when they first travelled to the South again.
13:36
From his letters he wrote that we're get on finally out here
13:39
and expect to have over 400 men in camp this week.
13:43
I am perfectly astonished at the general intelligence that these
13:46
darkies display. And he's felt darkies wrong.
13:50
So he was using quite derogatory language, but you said that was
13:54
the language that people would freely use at the time.
13:58
Yeah, it was the language people would free even if you're an
14:02
abolitionist or seen as being anti racist.
14:06
He was appalled when they got to the South by the treatment again
14:09
of the Southern darkies, as he put it.
14:12
He was appalled by that, but obviously he is using derogatory
14:16
racial language about his own men and about blacks in general.
14:21
So again, that's not in the movie, is it?
14:24
There's a part where I find this to the famous Christmas scene,
14:29
the beautiful Christmas scene, and you hear his narration and
14:33
he says that these men, they're just different from us.
14:36
We just like their way of whatever, their way of
14:39
interacting, their way of behaving.
14:41
It's just different guitars. But he's not.
14:44
I can't remember and watched it in a very long time.
14:46
He's not in that. He's not saying he's not being
14:51
derogatory, he's just saying they have a different way about
14:55
them. But his letters do show that he
14:58
even he felt there were physical differences as well.
15:02
And it goes into the whole idea that blacks are maybe like a
15:07
subspecies or beastial or not human in a sense.
15:11
But what? Did they say, but this goes back
15:13
to the whole tenant of slavery or empire, because when the
15:20
Spanish got to the Americas, when they got to Peru, when they
15:24
conquered in camp, there were Permuvians in the mountains and
15:28
because they left at high altitude, their lung capacity
15:32
was different. They had a different bone
15:34
structure. This is so the Spanish
15:37
questioned whether these people were even human.
15:41
So they used this to justify or facilitate their genocide that
15:47
they committed. Emperor, These people aren't
15:49
even human. So we're not killing people,
15:52
we're killing animals in a sense.
15:54
Shaw didn't quite see blacks in that way, but he did see them as
15:59
being different physically. He did see them as being
16:01
inferior intellectually and different physically.
16:05
So he basically is Darwism in a sentence, isn't it?
16:09
Before Darwism was a thing. OK, but he's leading these men.
16:14
He's leading these men. Is there anything in particular
16:17
he said about the physical differences that you want to go
16:21
on to now? And we should probably have a
16:23
warning at the top of this episode about the Limey Jews.
16:27
Yeah, well, we'll go back and put that in.
16:29
Yeah, that's fine, Joe. Not nothing specifically on the
16:34
physical differences, but he just felt there were physical
16:38
differences. What?
16:39
Fine to remember about the 54 and to remember about Shaw.
16:46
Again, in the movie it's shown that there's only white drill
16:52
Sergeant. Remember the Irish drill
16:55
Sergeant? Who are you, Boyle?
16:56
You're you're the Prince of Africa we mentioned.
16:59
This fella in a previous episode, didn't we?
17:02
No, we didn't mention him specifically, but there were
17:04
black drill sergeants so shot that allowed that.
17:08
The actor who played the Irish drug Sergeant?
17:10
Because he was in Casino, wasn't he?
17:12
No, he's not in casino. The guy that shot that offers
17:17
Shaw a bottle when he breaks in. Oh yeah, no, but he's not the
17:21
drill Sergeant. He's a quartermaster in glory.
17:24
All right, OK, good. Drill Sergeant.
17:25
Another actor who's he's on a lot of movies.
17:27
He's on NYPD Blue in The X-Files as well.
17:30
But there were black drill sergeants.
17:32
One of them was Robert J Simmons, who was a black drill
17:35
Sergeant. So Shaw agreed that if they were
17:38
qualified and they could do the job, then yeah, they should be
17:42
allowed to be drill Sergeant. So there were black drill
17:45
sergeants. There were black drill
17:47
sergeants. Some historians feel that black
17:49
soldiers would be more subservient to men like Shaw
17:53
because he was so well educated. He was so well spoken.
17:57
He came from a rich family. He was even religised by Emerson
18:02
after he died at Wagner. So he obviously was a very well
18:07
educated man. Yeah, that is an interesting
18:09
argument. Whether it's true or not, we
18:11
don't have many instances of black desertion in the American
18:16
Civil War on the Union side, so I don't think it would have
18:19
mattered the educational background of their unit
18:22
commanders. Is there anything more we should
18:25
discuss about Shaw's background? Nothing really about his
18:29
background. Again, in Glory it doesn't show
18:31
it, but he was married by the time he became part of the
18:36
regiment. So even when he was in the
18:39
regiment, he went on his honeymoon to his father in law's
18:44
estate. So he married Annan Haggerty of
18:47
New York, and this was May of 1863.
18:51
So this was after he took command of the regiment.
18:54
And again, this would have been a societal marriage for these
18:58
two. Would it be in?
19:00
It's not an arranged marriage, but it's just he's from a very
19:04
good family. She's from a very good family.
19:07
It makes sense for them both to have that.
19:11
Union. OK, Yeah, they're both from
19:13
wealthy families. And OK, the show is leading
19:17
these men into battle with Robert Goldshaw on the 54th.
19:21
When do they have their first taste of combat?
19:25
They depart for South Carolina on the 28th of May.
19:30
So you have to remember and the movie did a good job of showing
19:34
this, although and obviously he didn't have to blackmail a
19:39
higher ranking officer to get his men to go into barrel.
19:43
But Shaw, they did take part in the burning of Darren.
19:49
I don't know if you remember that in the film.
19:52
Yeah, but what was Darren? So it was just a small
19:55
Confederate town. The expedition was led by
19:58
Colonel Montgomery of Kansas, and Shaw paints a very drastic
20:04
and less and flattering picture of this man in his letters.
20:09
What does he say of Montgomery from Kansas?
20:12
In the film this is shown at 1.1 of the black soldiers grabs a
20:17
white woman and that Montgomery without hesitation executes the
20:22
man. This didn't happen as it was
20:25
depicted in the film. Shawn insisted that Montgomery
20:29
that shoot at his men just just off the cuff would shoot at them
20:34
and he said. Well, as a warning or to kill
20:36
them or. As a warning to get them proven.
20:39
And he said he did execute a deserter without a military
20:43
trial. So last episode you were asking
20:45
why did they not just shoot Robert E Lee?
20:49
Because under the articles of war, there should be a military
20:52
trial. He wasn't a deserter, was he?
20:54
Robert E Lee. He was your.
20:57
He was the leader of the, the Sovereign Army, this Confederacy
21:01
army. So.
21:02
He was the leader of the Confederacy army, but but.
21:05
Montgomery shoots a deserter in front of Shaw.
21:08
In front of Shaw and Shaw put this in his letter, so I have no
21:12
doubt that it happened. Did he not plead for the man's
21:15
life? I think it just happened so
21:17
quickly that he didn't realise the man was going to be shot.
21:20
So if he had plead for his life, he didn't make a count of it or
21:25
he didn't make a note of it in his letters, Yeah.
21:28
So Montgomery shoots this man who this deserter and Shaw was
21:32
appalled, and he's also appalled by Montgomery's treatment of the
21:36
men he's in charge of. Is that correct?
21:38
Yeah, his treatment was different.
21:41
It was more benevolent than Montgomery.
21:44
Montgomery would argue that his treatment of his men was
21:49
necessary and the unit he commanded was successful.
21:54
But yeah, sure, even with his racial language about his own
21:59
men and his questioning of their intelligence, he was appalled by
22:04
Montgomery's treatment of his regimen.
22:08
And Shaw's, as I said, the language at the time, it was
22:13
what most men were using or most people were using about, about
22:17
blacks. And I just remembered reminded
22:20
me of because Shaw is seen as this almost same like figure,
22:25
particularly in the film. And obviously he was a very good
22:29
man and we'll get into what happened to him.
22:33
And but it just reminds me of Nixon when Nixon was showing the
22:39
Watergate tapes and there was so much bad language in it.
22:42
And he's like, I can't see that word.
22:44
I can't the word of can't see Nixon as a racist saying the N
22:48
word. Then hit one of the guys who was
22:51
going for the tapes referee. He said, Mr. President, if we
22:54
blank out all the words, do not do not think people just think
22:58
all you do is swear. Nixon just gives the man an icy
23:02
like, yeah, so Shaw, he's flawed.
23:05
But yeah, Montgomery's treatment of his men would have been, it
23:09
would have been a little more, let's just say a little more
23:14
punitive than Shaw's own treatment.
23:15
But was there? Were there any reports of Shaw
23:18
punishing his men, Disciplining his men?
23:21
No, the records don't show this. Apparently there was no
23:24
desertion. So in the film, you've got the
23:28
incredible scene that probably won Denzel Washington the Oscar
23:31
when he, like, deserves because he's trying to find shores.
23:36
And he gets caught and he's brought back.
23:38
And Shaw says he's going to be, like, flogged in front of the
23:41
entire regiment. And even the racist Irish drill
23:45
Sergeant when he rips off Denzel's shirt and he sees all
23:49
the lacerations on his back from the weapons he suffered as a
23:54
slave, even he's shot. And he looks at Shaw as if,
23:58
Should I continue? And Shaw just gives them the nod
24:02
and says commence. But again, there's no record
24:06
that actually happened. Some historians have questioned
24:11
why that was even in the film. Because it didn't happen, OK.
24:16
But you agree that it should have been in the film.
24:17
I think it's a great scene. The film is one of my favourite
24:20
films. It's a rousing and highly moving
24:23
account of the 54th, so it's a beautiful evocation of those
24:27
brave men, but it leaves itself open to accusations of white
24:31
serism. As I said, Columbia Pictures at
24:36
the time, they ignored the historical or the film makers
24:40
ignored the historical evidence that had been left behind.
24:44
Like your absolving shot of his horrendous racial language and
24:49
darwaism and white supremacy views.
24:53
Aren't you? Able to absorb the film makers
24:56
and say this was the time period this they were making the film
24:59
in. What was it 878989?
25:04
So they were making the film in 89.
25:07
That was the time period. So they would argue that they
25:11
could not make the lead character a black actor.
25:16
I'm not saying I agree with it, but isn't that an argument that
25:20
holds water? Yeah, I would say, yeah, you
25:24
could maybe argue that. They would say if we make the
25:28
Denzel Washing character the lead character, even though he's
25:31
a composite and all the men in the regiment are composites and
25:35
they're not based on anyone who actually was in the 54th, which
25:39
makes absolutely no sense when you look at some of the men who
25:43
were in it. I disagree, but go on.
25:45
No, I, I no. We can get into that a little
25:47
bit, but I disagree. With the historical evidence
25:50
left, they could have definitely based, might not have Frederick
25:54
Douglass's sons as part of the regiment.
25:56
But anyway, they would argue that Shaw's letters were used
26:01
for the voice over for the narration.
26:04
So he has to be the lead character.
26:06
And also, as you said at that time, again, one of the sources
26:10
I looked at when I was researching these episodes, he
26:15
mentioned, the historian mentioned Mississippi Burnham,
26:18
which came out the year before. And that was rightly criticised
26:23
because it made the FBI essentially the saviours of that
26:28
case in the civil rights movement when they were hardly
26:32
involved. It was mainly done by activists
26:35
on the ground the investigation. FBI didn't want to get involved.
26:39
So he compared that to Glory and said the film makers failed in
26:46
that sense because they should have had like, real characters
26:49
from the regiment. Well, yeah, it's yeah, It's an
26:52
interesting. Argument.
26:53
I would disagree from a storytelling point of view.
26:57
If you have real characters from the regiment, in some ways
27:01
you're obliged to tell their stories exactly as they
27:06
happened, and maybe they are isn't as dramatically as
27:11
interesting as it would be if you have composites.
27:15
Perhaps. So why not tell the story of
27:20
when H Carney the first black Medal of Honour recipient, so he
27:25
carried the regiment colours at Fort Wagner.
27:29
Why not tell the story of Corporal James Gooden?
27:32
He wrote Lincoln in position to have black soldiers receive the
27:38
same pay as white soldiers. So I don't know.
27:41
Did we mention it in the Black Regiments segment in Episode 4,
27:45
Blacks, I think we did mention that black soldiers would be
27:48
paid $10 a month, White soldiers would be paid $13 a month.
27:53
So after Wagner, again, that shows the literacy levels of the
27:59
regiment. Although he referred, he kept
28:02
referring to Lincoln as your excellent saying, which was a
28:05
bit odd instead of Mr. President, but he quit.
28:10
He asked, are we soldiers or are we labourers?
28:14
Let the rich mould around Wagner's parapets be upturned.
28:18
And there will be found an eloquent answer.
28:22
So these men, these are compelling narrative stories.
28:27
And even if you're saying, oh, we don't want to mention them
28:31
because sometimes I'm sure in movies you need the permission
28:34
of the family to use the real names and stuff.
28:37
So maybe Pardney's family and Goodman's family didn't want
28:40
them in there, but you could still mention what they did
28:42
without using their names. Not if they're dead, I don't
28:46
think. Not if they're dead.
28:48
Yeah, but in terms of I can completely understand why they
28:52
didn't use those characters. So you want a scene after Wagner
28:55
where some guy who's writing to the president said your story's
28:59
finished at that point? Yeah.
29:01
And that's one of the things as we showed the 54th that go on to
29:06
serve in Florida and other battles after Wagner, but many
29:12
of them were captured as well after Wagner and went to those
29:15
sovereign prisons that we mentioned prisoners at war
29:18
camps. But why don't we get into
29:21
Wagner? So we'll get to Wagner, but did
29:23
the 54 see combat before Fort Wagner?
29:27
They took part in that raid and to Durham and they also, they
29:32
saw the first time they saw combat was in skirmishes in
29:36
James Island in South Carolina. So this was July 16th, 1860 3.
29:43
OK, tell us about that. How did it go?
29:45
45 of the regiment died during those skirmishes, but they did
29:50
ultimately win that skirmish. Is there anything about anything
29:55
more on what happened during these skirmishes or this battle?
29:58
What did Shaw say of the men he. Obviously was very impressed by
30:04
them because two days later and again, the film correctly
30:08
depicts this. This is when the attack on Fort
30:11
Wagner takes place, and Shaw volunteers as men to lead that
30:16
attack because of what he saw. At James Island.
30:20
But two days after James Island, he's sending them to certain
30:24
death at Fort Wagner. Yeah, two days after James
30:28
Island, the 54 of Massachusetts leads the charge of Fort Wagner.
30:34
And this was the gateway to Charleston.
30:38
So Charleston was the beacon of slavery, the epicentre of the
30:42
antebellum South. Fort Wagner is the literal
30:46
physical manifestation of that ideology.
30:51
OK. So it's a symbol of the South,
30:55
everything they stand for. Shall we get into the assault on
30:58
Wagner? Why does Shaw volunteer his men
31:02
to take to lead this attack? I think it went more into again
31:08
in the film he did volunteer his men to lead the attack, but we
31:13
went into the racism even in the Union Army and apparently one of
31:19
the other commanders at Wagner, Major General Truman Seymour, he
31:26
was segment commander Wagner. He said we can use the his exact
31:32
quote was we could use those letters from Massachusetts
31:37
essentially to lead the charge and that there's still the idea
31:40
that time that black regiments will fail in combat.
31:44
So he wants to use them to show how unsuitable black soldiers
31:50
are for combat, to basically discredit the use of black
31:54
soldiers in the Union Army. But it backfires on him
31:59
spectacularly. And Shaw volunteered as men
32:02
because he knew they were up to the job, essentially.
32:07
They were up to the job, but wasn't.
32:10
Isn't there an argument that Fort Wagner is impenetrable?
32:15
Yes, the attack itself was futile, 42% of the regiment fell
32:20
in glory and shown as 50%. Forty 2% of any regiment is
32:25
still a huge number. So Fort Wagner, there were 4
32:29
battalions, Union battalions, the 54 led the charge.
32:35
So the Confederates, they refrained from shooting at the
32:40
54th until they were in range. I think I mentioned that a
32:44
previous battle it might have been Gettysburg.
32:46
Where? Yeah, it was Gettysburg.
32:48
Gettysburg. They didn't fire until they were
32:50
within 700 yards, so they waited until they were in range.
32:55
They've got heavy artillery, they've got rifles.
32:59
So as the men approached the Fort, that's artillery and rifle
33:06
fire starts to rain down on them, as is shown.
33:10
Many of them got into the Fort, and lots of them were killed
33:16
trying to surrender. That's not shown in the film.
33:19
And a lot of them drowned in the water trying to escape.
33:23
So it was a futile attack. But as Michael C Adams writes,
33:28
after Fort Wagner, the 54th became the symbol of racial
33:33
idealism in the war. As we've shown, black regiments
33:36
have fought before, but I think because of the sheer lunacy of
33:41
the attack, Wagner, it just showed the bravery of these men.
33:45
And yeah, that's why they became the symbol or they became the
33:50
most celebrated black regiment that's come out of the civil.
33:55
War. They changed the public
33:58
perception. They changed the public
34:00
perception of black soldiers. They changed the public
34:04
perception. So many of them died, but they
34:07
died bravely. They died fighting for the union
34:11
'cause they, they obviously Shaw knew and it was beautifully
34:17
realised in the film. He knew when he was volunteering
34:22
the regiment that most of them were going to fall, and Shaw
34:25
fell with his regiment and he died with his men at Wagner.
34:31
Did Shaw believed the Fort could be taken?
34:35
I don't think anyone could have looked at that Fort
34:38
strategically and thought, yes, this Fort can be penetrated in
34:41
battle. It was later abandoned by the
34:44
Confederacy. But yeah, it was never to in a
34:49
battle. It was just perfect for a
34:50
defence of like position. And we've shown the Civil War.
34:55
Many of the battles were won by the defendant regiments.
35:00
So was Robert Goldshaw suicide though?
35:03
Did what was? Why did he volunteer his men if
35:07
he knew there was no way that they were ever taking this
35:10
forward? And he would likely fall with
35:12
his men at Wagner? He'd just been married for
35:15
Christ's. Sake last what I was going to
35:16
say. Did he want out?
35:17
Of his marriage, he obviously wanted to get back to his wife.
35:20
Maybe he hoped to survive and the bravery of the men would
35:25
have been seen and would have been celebrated.
35:27
But yeah, in retrospect, it was maybe fortunate that more of
35:32
them died, but 42%, as I said, of any regiment, it's huge.
35:37
As I said earlier, black soldiers regiments made-up 18%
35:42
of the deaths in the American Civil War.
35:45
Of the Union deaths, that was the same number as the
35:49
Confederacy who lost. The percentage for white Union
35:53
deaths was 6%, and blacks made-up 10% of the overall Union
35:59
force. So obviously they were dying in
36:02
this portion of numbers, but yeah, sure.
36:04
Were they not usually at the vanguard of a battle?
36:08
Not all the time, as we show that the crater they were meant
36:12
to be discharged, but General me changed his mind at the last
36:15
moment. Well, no, they weren't always at
36:17
the vanguard of the battle, but. How did the South react to this
36:22
assault on Wagner? They won.
36:26
So I'm sure they. But did they have any views on
36:29
these brave black men who attempted to take?
36:34
Their Fort if they did, I don't know.
36:38
After Wagner, the city of Boston proposes a memorial, but they at
36:44
that time they're only planning to do it for Robert Shaw.
36:48
So the artist Augustus St Godens he he comes up with the famous
36:55
image of Shaw on his horse, the General at War or the Colonel at
37:02
war. When Shaw's family see what the
37:05
artist is proposing, they disagree, they object, They say
37:10
that he should be with his men. So then Augustus went back to
37:15
his studio and he came up with the beautiful memorial that now
37:20
stands on Boston Common, which I think you've seen it.
37:25
Yeah, I've seen it. So my wife and I, when we went
37:29
to the US East Coast in summer 2024, I specifically wanted to
37:34
go to Boston to see this memorial.
37:37
So when the first day I went, my wife had actually been sick.
37:41
So we'd been to Marfur's Vineyard on Wednesday.
37:44
She got sick on the way back. Did you see Bruce Marfur's
37:48
Vineyard? Bruce the shark from Jaws No.
37:53
Though our tour guide that tells on the way that there were great
37:56
white shark spotted like a couple of mining out the coast
38:01
that week. So mad that there was pause
38:03
about going in the water. But obviously it was an
38:05
irrational fear. Even if they had been there it
38:08
would have been fine but we didn't see any but so that next
38:12
day I went to Boston Common by myself.
38:15
I had to ask someone for directions as to where the
38:18
memorial was and I find that I got someone to take my picture.
38:22
But the next day my wife was better and she wanted to go to
38:28
Boston Common as the oldest public park in America.
38:32
Oh great. So we we went back down and when
38:36
we were there, there was a tour going on.
38:38
So the tour guide, like he gave his presentation.
38:41
Then he paused and he asked if there were any questions.
38:45
I left at a minute. No one said anything.
38:47
I wasn't part of the tour, but I spoke to him and I had some
38:51
questions for him. And in all fairness, he answered
38:54
the questions and he was very polite.
38:56
Although some of the tour, the people on the tour were giving
38:59
me daggers. But as we weren't asking
39:02
questions, I'm right here, I'm going to take advantage.
39:05
And the guy was happy to answer the questions, but he told me
39:08
about that, that initially it was only going to be like a
39:13
memorial to Shaw. And I didn't know that.
39:15
And it is absolutely stunning. And I have a great picture of me
39:19
touching Shaw or touching one of the soldiers what that my wife
39:24
took. Shall we put it on the our
39:26
Instagram? We can if you want.
39:28
Yeah, we can. OK, what did you ask of this
39:31
man, of this tour guide? I just asked him why why the
39:36
film depicted all the regiment as slaves when they weren't.
39:42
And what did the man say? He said, to the best of his
39:45
knowledge, that the regiment in the film were meant to be even
39:48
more in the background, but Denzel Washington and Morgan
39:51
Freeman went to Edward Zanig, the director, and saying
39:55
absolutely not, but his name's. Not Zat is Edward.
39:57
Zwick. Zwick, isn't it?
40:00
OK, Swick, OK. So, yeah, so they went.
40:03
Any more questions you asked of this tour guide?
40:06
Oh, he was. Lovely.
40:08
Yeah, it was nice, he asked the I wasn't paying to be honest.
40:11
Tours. You'd get crushed.
40:12
His tour did no one ask any questions?
40:14
They just wanted to move on. They just.
40:16
Wanted to move on to wherever they were going.
40:18
OK, so you saw the memorial. I I saw it in DC, So how did I
40:24
say it in DC if it's in Boston? You've not seen it then.
40:27
Why? I think it's not the same
40:30
memorial, obviously. Maybe the there is someone in in
40:34
Washington who's on a horse who looks similar to him and he's
40:38
got men underneath him. No, I sent you the photo and you
40:42
said, oh, that's not it, but it definitely was.
40:44
That's not the memorial. Could they not have ever lifted
40:47
it in because he knew I was in town and then they all wanted it
40:49
back out when I left It's. Not the memorial.
40:52
It's not the actual memorial that Augustus designed.
40:55
OK, I'm saying it is. Is there?
40:59
It's not. So that you saw Shaw, the Shaw
41:03
Memorial at Boston Common? I No.
41:05
I saw the 54th of Massachusetts. Memorial, which Shaw is front
41:10
and centre he has. Front and centre, but his men
41:13
are in there. And that what I saw was.
41:15
One of one of the I actually, I read a great source on on the
41:21
art of the memorial and on the history of I'm not really on to
41:26
my art history when I first had my degree.
41:29
I don't even know how Caravaggio was.
41:32
But anyway, one of the great things this guy wrote was that
41:39
the faces of the soldiers they're showing, they're so
41:43
detailed of the black soldiers and the regiment that it goes
41:46
against the idea that these men are not human and these men are
41:51
bestial and these men do not look like anyone else.
41:55
And I, I thought that was beautifully written, actually.
41:59
OK, yeah, it's great you saw it and I did say it.
42:02
I saw an imposter. According to you.
42:04
We spoke about glory and how the Shaw is depicted as a white
42:09
saviour and but it is a magnificent film with some
42:13
incredible performances. Denzel Washington, Morgan
42:16
Freeman, who clearly would not have been involved in a regiment
42:19
at his age. I think we mentioned that in a
42:22
previous episode of Matthew Broderick, who's great in it.
42:26
I think he's election is his best performance, but Glory and
42:30
Carrie Hughes is it. Yeah, he's Ellis.
42:33
Yeah, he's. Excellent in it too.
42:35
But yes, it's a brilliant film. Johnny, do you want to say
42:38
anything on? It is an excellent film.
42:40
Yeah. It does leave itself open to
42:44
accusations of being a white saviour narrative because it's
42:49
told from Shaw's point of view, because he leads a voice over in
42:54
the narration. For me, the most egregious scene
42:58
is when Morgan Freeman's character, I think his
43:02
character's called Goblins, and the Denzel Washington character
43:05
is called Trap. And Morgan Freeman's character,
43:09
Moshi, is Trap for being angry because Trap is like, angry
43:14
about being a slave since he was a child, essentially.
43:18
And Morgan Freeman starts and says that why?
43:21
Why are you so angry at these men?
43:23
These men have been dying in their hundreds for Year 4.
43:28
Only a white screenwriter could have written that, because why
43:32
does Denzel Washington's character not have the right to
43:34
be angry? He's been a slave since birth.
43:37
And the whole idea that these white boys are dying for Year 4,
43:43
as we showed a lot of the white soldiers, they were not
43:47
ideologically opposed to slavery or they didn't believe the black
43:52
men were equals. I wish they would take that
43:55
scene out into a director's cut because obviously, wait a
43:58
minute, you're saying, can I? Find.
44:01
Yeah, go on, you cut. Me off.
44:02
Man, no I don't think you've been monologue for 5 minutes,
44:05
what are you talking about? Go.
44:07
I'm interrupting Johnny, but he's monologue so I can't
44:10
interject and say anything. Go, go, let's go.
44:16
No, the intention is to bring him truly into the regiment and
44:20
say you're one of us. But I just don't think it's a
44:23
very well written scene. It's well acted but the whole
44:26
idea that like you'll be the spot running liquor around here
44:31
if you don't get with the programme is quite offensive.
44:34
What you were saying about, I think Gone with the Wind, that
44:38
they should not cut in, but you want them to cut that.
44:40
So A. Glory.
44:41
How do you justify that? That's.
44:43
Fair enough. Yeah, I would say look at Guess
44:47
Who's Coming to Dinner. There's a big speech given and
44:51
guests who come to dinner is about an interracial couple, for
44:53
those who don't know. And there's a speech given by
44:57
Sydney Pottery. And he blames his dad for not
45:01
letting, for not letting him date a white woman.
45:03
Obviously the racism is from the white side, but that's a white
45:07
screenwriter. That was that must have been at
45:10
least 20 years before Glory. I'm not excusing them.
45:13
I can understand, though, why at the time, if they rocked up to
45:17
Paramount or whoever produced the film and said let's make a
45:21
movie about a free black slave fighting in the 54th
45:28
Massachusetts and we'll make Denzel Washington the lead, Day
45:31
would have said no, we can't make this movie because no one
45:33
will go see it. That's what their argument would
45:35
have been. Obviously, I don't agree with
45:37
it. It's a ridiculous argument.
45:38
It's been proven as such. But at that time, and they still
45:42
made a brilliant movie. OK, we'll finish speaking about
45:45
glory, and we'll let Johnny monologue on a little more.
45:49
We've said enough on the 54. We've said enough on the Civil
45:53
War. Let's bring our series on the
45:55
American Civil War to an end. Yeah.
45:59
I hope you guys have enjoyed this.
46:01
What do you think John? Do you think it went well apart?
46:04
From Johnny's monologue and his speechifying and said you're
46:07
interrupting me when he's been speaking uninterrupted for 5
46:11
minutes. Yeah, apart from that, I'm sure.
46:13
They dropped it for six episodes.
46:15
Yeah, basically I may as well not be here.
46:17
Johnny can just sit there and press a button and you have stop
46:22
answers that he can run with, or he can just read the history
46:27
paper. And I'm sure the audience will
46:29
be on the edge of their seats for that sometimes.
46:31
I do use material from my history paper.
46:36
Yeah, of course. All right, so Johnny, you want
46:39
to take? Us out.
46:40
Yeah. So just we'll finish up with
46:43
something that Robert Gold Shaw's father said about Robert
46:47
Gold Shaw. So his name was Francis Gold
46:50
Shaw. So Shaw was buried with his old
46:53
man at Fort Wagner. And later, when the Union
46:59
liberated Wagner, they asked the family if they wanted the
47:04
remains, their son's remains, and they said no.
47:08
So I finished with what Francis Bulkshaw wrote in general about
47:14
Wagner and wrote about the Sun. So we'll see you next time on
47:17
the twin history. Podcast.
47:20
See you next time, guys. We'll let Johnny finish the
47:22
episode. The poor benighted wrenches
47:26
thought they were heaping indignities upon his dead body,
47:29
but that recoils upon them. They buried him with his brave,
47:33
devoted followers who fell dead over him and around him.
47:37
We can imagine no holier place than that in which he is Francis
47:42
Gold Shaw. The Twin History Podcast is a
47:47
Lost Cosmonauts production produced by Me Virag Estertoud.
47:53
Additional producers are Dale McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and
47:57
Joe McCann. Written by Johnny McCann and Joe
48:01
McCann. Original music and score by
48:04
Kevin McCloud. The podcast is available
48:08
wherever you get your podcast. You can find us on Instagram,
48:12
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48:16
History Pod. You can e-mail us at The Twin
48:21
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49:28
The.