Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #635 Your Children Don't Need Punishment

Transcript

#635 Your Children Don't Need Punishment · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
0:10
Speaker 2: Now, I'm not big on gentle parenting, but i am
0:12
Speaker 2: really big on being good to kids, make sure they've
0:15
Speaker 2: got appropriate boundaries, but making sure that we're communicating with
0:19
Speaker 2: them in a way that acknowledges and recognizes that they're people.
0:24
Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
0:27
Speaker 1: and dad.
0:28
Speaker 2: I have no idea, Kylie, if this is going to work.
0:30
Speaker 2: This is the first time, first time ever that we've
0:32
Speaker 2: tried to record a podcast with the entire family home
0:35
Speaker 2: and the dishwatcher going and children in the shower, bath,
0:38
Speaker 2: the whole lot. So fingers crossed, it's going to work, obviously, Folks.
0:43
Speaker 2: We don't record the podcast the minute that you're hearing
0:46
Speaker 2: it live to air on the morning of the podcast.
0:50
Speaker 2: We do it the day before or something like that.
0:53
Speaker 2: But this time we are running late. Our lives have
0:56
Speaker 2: been hectic, our schedule has blown up, like absolutely, and
1:01
Speaker 2: we are trying to do this in a really complicated way.
1:05
Speaker 2: So I've just been in Sydney last night. I was
1:07
Speaker 2: at bridget Ene College in the Eastern Suburbs talking about
1:11
Speaker 2: sex consent and staying safe, and now we're doing our
1:14
Speaker 2: very best with technology to pull this off. Kylie's got
1:17
Speaker 2: the kids running around the house and I'm trying to
1:20
Speaker 2: push the buttons from where I am and I have
1:22
Speaker 2: no idea if it's going to work. So here we go.
1:25
Speaker 2: Let's do our best. Are you ready?
1:27
Speaker 3: Hey?
1:27
Speaker 2: You know what I want to do. We were trying
1:29
Speaker 2: to get hold of Ryan Reynolds for the show Ryan
1:31
Speaker 2: Renolds for the podcast what are you laughing at? I'm serious.
1:34
Speaker 2: We sent the invite out, nothing came back, but it's
1:37
Speaker 2: got a new movie coming out email. I haven't got
1:41
Speaker 2: his email address. No, I do what I can.
1:43
Speaker 4: Here's Twitter.
1:45
Speaker 5: No, I should have tweeted him. I should have said, Ryan,
1:47
Speaker 5: come on the show. I've got six daughters. He's got
1:49
Speaker 5: three daughters. And because he wasn't available to talk to
1:53
Speaker 5: the Happy Families podcast. I mean, we do have a
1:55
Speaker 5: lot of listeners and we have been nominated as Australia's
1:59
Speaker 5: Best Parenting PODCAS for later on this month of the
2:01
Speaker 5: Istraian Podcast Awards. But maybe I should tweet him and
2:04
Speaker 5: let him know and see if he'll do it. I
2:06
Speaker 5: mean that would be epic, that would be epic.
2:08
Speaker 4: Could you imagine really Jimmy Fallon.
2:10
Speaker 2: Well, he was speaking with Jimmy Fallon about the things
2:12
Speaker 2: that I wanted to talk to him about. That is
2:15
Speaker 2: his brand new Spirited movie, which we're not going to
2:19
Speaker 2: We're not going to talk about that because we can't.
2:21
Speaker 2: But also he he he and his wife, Blake Lively
2:25
Speaker 2: are expecting another child. This is what he had to
2:29
Speaker 2: say about maybe number four on the way. Will it
2:31
Speaker 2: be a girl? Talking with Jimmy Fallon, maybe number four
2:34
Speaker 2: on the way, number fo. I'm so happy for you
2:39
Speaker 2: and Blake.
2:39
Speaker 3: Thank you, SENSI Blake, please, I definitely will. Yeah, it's
2:44
Speaker 3: it's another Yeah, No, it's a lot. I mean we
2:46
Speaker 3: have we have three beautiful girls right now and fourth
2:50
Speaker 3: one on the way. It's really making me rethink stunts.
2:54
Speaker 3: You know, I've been doing the action movies twenty five years.
2:57
Speaker 3: I've broken twelve bones. I just had a seventh surgery.
3:00
Speaker 3: And you know, kids though they beat you up, I
3:02
Speaker 3: got you know, my daughter's like you know you I
3:05
Speaker 3: oftentimes like it's not an alarm clock that wakes me up.
3:08
Speaker 3: It's like a jump, a need of the jugular, Yeah,
3:10
Speaker 3: of course. Yeah, And like I just want to keep
3:13
Speaker 3: I'm rethinking doing stunts now because I'm starting to realize,
3:16
Speaker 3: like I want to be able to still kind of
3:17
Speaker 3: be active with my kids and stuff like I love
3:20
Speaker 3: I love throwing them up in the air, Like I
3:22
Speaker 3: could throw my daughter Betty.
3:23
Speaker 2: Especially, I can throw her. She's so little. I could
3:25
Speaker 2: throw her high in the.
3:27
Speaker 3: Air still, and she loves it. The problem is I
3:31
Speaker 3: can't catch her.
3:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's.
3:34
Speaker 3: So, that's how the biggest the biggest issue that I'm facing.
3:38
Speaker 2: But yeah, do you know, do you know if it's
3:40
Speaker 2: boy or girl? We don't.
3:41
Speaker 3: We never find out. We always wait till they come
3:44
Speaker 3: down the chute. But you know, I actually, yeah, I
3:50
Speaker 3: just even after they're born. I don't ask because I
3:53
Speaker 3: respect the privacy. But I'm kind of hoping for a
3:57
Speaker 3: girl because I know i'm a bit of a hen myself.
4:00
Speaker 2: I know girls. I like, I'm a girl dad. I'm
4:03
Speaker 2: used to that. I'm ready for that.
4:05
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, yeah, you're good.
4:08
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I like Ryan Reynolds because girl dad, this
4:12
Speaker 2: is what I'm thinking. I've got to I've got to
4:14
Speaker 2: tweet him. I've got to contact his publicist. We've got
4:16
Speaker 2: to do whatever we can. Six Daughters Podcast Parenting families
4:21
Speaker 2: like he would be so good to talk to. What
4:23
Speaker 2: do you think should we do it? Of course I
4:26
Speaker 2: think we should do it. That's what I'm gonna once
4:28
Speaker 2: we finished putting this podcast together, I'm going to jump
4:31
Speaker 2: onto Twitter and try. Okay, I'm going to try, and
4:35
Speaker 2: they're forced be with you now. Now the topic of
4:38
Speaker 2: our podcast today, I wonder what Ryan Reynolds would say.
4:41
Speaker 2: The topic of our podcast is your children don't need punishment.
4:46
Speaker 2: They need you to be responsive, They need you to
4:48
Speaker 2: not be putting them in time out. They don't be
4:50
Speaker 2: yelled at. Your children don't need punishment. And I just
4:54
Speaker 2: wonder what would he agree with that? But what would
4:57
Speaker 2: he say? I mean, I'd imagine he would say something
4:59
Speaker 2: like Deadpool doesn't punish. Deadpool just kills people. If the
5:02
Speaker 2: children do the wrong thing, let's just let's just go.
5:05
Speaker 4: They just throw them up in the air and you
5:06
Speaker 4: don't catch them.
5:08
Speaker 2: Who needs punishment when you've got a dad like that?
5:10
Speaker 2: So let's let's talk about this topic and we'll save
5:13
Speaker 2: Ryan Reynolds for another day. We'll see if we can
5:15
Speaker 2: get a scoop with Ryan Reynolds down the track. Where
5:19
Speaker 2: do you want to start this conversation.
5:21
Speaker 4: Well, you don't really love the phrase gentle parenting?
5:25
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I know. And whenever I talk about this
5:27
Speaker 2: idea of kids not being punished, everyone says, well, that's
5:30
Speaker 2: because you're your a gentle parent. That justin Colson Happy Families,
5:34
Speaker 2: it's all about gentle parenting.
5:35
Speaker 4: So why don't you like it? Like, what's wrong with
5:38
Speaker 4: to be a gentle parent?
5:39
Speaker 2: No, well, there's nothing the matter with being a gentle parent.
5:41
Speaker 2: It's it's more the definition of the lack thereof of
5:45
Speaker 2: gentle parenting. So essentially, gentle parenting is just anything that's
5:48
Speaker 2: not traditional parenting that's kind and gentle and nice. It's
5:50
Speaker 2: like a soft version. A lot of people see gentle
5:52
Speaker 2: pairing as a permissive version of traditional parenting. That is,
5:56
Speaker 2: I'm going to raise my children like everyone else raises
5:58
Speaker 2: their kids, but I'm just not going to them into trouble.
6:00
Speaker 2: And I'm also not getting them into trouble. But the
6:03
Speaker 2: whole idea, the whole gentle parenting thing, it really sets
6:06
Speaker 2: some people off. It gets some people really really annoyed
6:08
Speaker 2: and frustrated. It's not a well defined term, so from
6:12
Speaker 2: a research point of view, it just doesn't exist in
6:14
Speaker 2: the academic literature because it's so loosely defined. And what
6:19
Speaker 2: it really I think stands for is it's just a
6:22
Speaker 2: soft kind version of the old school parenting. It's old
6:26
Speaker 2: school parenting but without the without the disciplinary approach where
6:30
Speaker 2: we're being punitive, and so many people think that it
6:34
Speaker 2: means that the kids can get away with anything. So
6:37
Speaker 2: I'm not big on gentle parenting, but I am really
6:39
Speaker 2: big on being good to kids, making sure they've got
6:41
Speaker 2: appropriate boundaries, but making sure that we're communicating with them
6:47
Speaker 2: in a way that acknowledges and recognizes that they're people
6:51
Speaker 2: and that they're having challenges. So that's the main reason
6:55
Speaker 2: that I'm not a big fan of it.
6:56
Speaker 4: So one of the things that we try to do
6:58
Speaker 4: while we work with our children is not actually at
7:00
Speaker 4: them in trouble that actually work through the challenges that
7:03
Speaker 4: we're experiencing or they're experiencing to come to a conclusion
7:07
Speaker 4: that will work for all a solution that will work
7:10
Speaker 4: for all of us.
7:12
Speaker 2: And some people would call that gentle parenting, just to
7:13
Speaker 2: be clear, So we're not saying that it's not. I'm
7:16
Speaker 2: just saying I struggle with the term, and I think
7:18
Speaker 2: there are other things that we do that don't qualify
7:20
Speaker 2: as that.
7:21
Speaker 4: So what would you label us?
7:22
Speaker 3: Then?
7:23
Speaker 2: Well that's what my new books about, which we're not
7:25
Speaker 2: going to talk about until next year. But essentially, what
7:27
Speaker 2: we're trying to do is create an environment that supports
7:29
Speaker 2: our children's needs so that they can do what they're
7:32
Speaker 2: supposed to do and grow and develop mastery and do
7:35
Speaker 2: better in their lives. But this whole idea of getting
7:37
Speaker 2: your kids in trouble, what we've found is every time
7:40
Speaker 2: we get the kids in trouble, we lose the relationship.
7:43
Speaker 2: The kids feel lousy about themselves because they feel like
7:46
Speaker 2: they're being both controlled and they feel like they're being
7:48
Speaker 2: judged as incapable and incompetent. And so, as you said,
7:52
Speaker 2: our goal with the children when they're doing things that
7:55
Speaker 2: don't work is to sit with them and say, hey,
7:59
Speaker 2: we having a hard time here. We need to work
8:01
Speaker 2: this out. I get that you're struggling, but let's get
8:04
Speaker 2: everyone cool. Let's get everyone into a out of the
8:08
Speaker 2: hot emotional state that they're in because high emotions, low intelligence,
8:12
Speaker 2: or as one of our favorite podcast listeners and Premium
8:16
Speaker 2: Happy Families members has said, when you're on the brink,
8:18
Speaker 2: you need to stop and think. You can't think straight
8:21
Speaker 2: in a high emotion state, because our kids respond to
8:24
Speaker 2: things based on what's going on in their brain and
8:26
Speaker 2: their body before they respond to things in a rational way.
8:30
Speaker 2: If they're really heightened, we catch their emotions, but they
8:33
Speaker 2: blow up and we can't have useful conversations with them.
8:37
Speaker 2: So our job really is to say, hey, let's just
8:41
Speaker 2: be together. Let's help you to feel safe and secure,
8:44
Speaker 2: and once you feel like that, then we can work
8:46
Speaker 2: out a way forward. It sounds so easy in practice,
8:48
Speaker 2: in theory, in practice, so wow, it's hard.
8:54
Speaker 4: Just thinking about the last week and the multiple opportunities
9:00
Speaker 4: we've had to work with our children. Some of them
9:02
Speaker 4: haven't gone so well. And the thing that stands out
9:05
Speaker 4: to me in each of the cases where things did
9:08
Speaker 4: not go the way we would have wanted them to
9:11
Speaker 4: was just that sense of injustice that the kids felt
9:15
Speaker 4: because they felt so wrongly and harshly judged. Yeah, we
9:21
Speaker 4: attribute the worst possible motives to our kids' behavior when
9:26
Speaker 4: it doesn't fit in with the things that we want,
9:29
Speaker 4: and it's in those moments that we actually need to
9:34
Speaker 4: kind of have soft eyes and see them for the
9:38
Speaker 4: beautiful children that they really are.
9:40
Speaker 2: So to put that into context, what that really means
9:44
Speaker 2: when you're saying we attribute the worst possible motives to them,
9:46
Speaker 2: is we're walking thro the room and say, how many
9:47
Speaker 2: times do I have to tell you? I can't believe
9:49
Speaker 2: you're doing this again? There's something deficient about your character.
9:52
Speaker 2: You're a problem. You're always doing this, and we call
9:55
Speaker 2: them names, we label and we say things about them.
9:58
Speaker 2: What is your issue is at the very heart of
10:02
Speaker 2: what's going on here. What our kids need, as you've said,
10:06
Speaker 2: is they need is to walk in and say, you're
10:08
Speaker 2: really struggling at the moment, I'm here to help. Let's
10:11
Speaker 2: get you out of the room. Let's get you away
10:12
Speaker 2: from your sister, Let's get you away from the issue
10:15
Speaker 2: that's being created here, and when everything's cool, we'll have
10:18
Speaker 2: a chat. In case in point, about a week ago,
10:20
Speaker 2: one of our kids was super, super angry at her
10:23
Speaker 2: sister and we separated them, and then the one that
10:29
Speaker 2: was really angry she had to go and take care
10:31
Speaker 2: of something that was going to take her a few hours.
10:33
Speaker 2: It was a Saturday, and she had another commitment that
10:35
Speaker 2: was going to take her out of the house for
10:36
Speaker 2: a few hours when I picked her up from where
10:38
Speaker 2: she'd been, I said to her, do we need to
10:41
Speaker 2: talk about what happened this morning? She looked at me
10:44
Speaker 2: and said, Dad, I've had a really good opportunity to
10:46
Speaker 2: think about it, and no, we don't need to talk
10:48
Speaker 2: about it. And I know I need to be better
10:49
Speaker 2: and I'm really sorry, and I'll make it right tonight
10:51
Speaker 2: when I get home. Now, we've had ongoing incidences with
10:56
Speaker 2: that child and her sister because they're human, they're not perfect.
11:00
Speaker 2: They still struggle. I mean, adults still struggle. We still
11:02
Speaker 2: struggle with our own siblings and our own parents, and
11:05
Speaker 2: sometimes even with one another. But it's about giving them
11:10
Speaker 2: the opportunity to have the learning to make the decision
11:13
Speaker 2: for themselves to be better and to move things forward
11:17
Speaker 2: in a positive and constructive way. That's the goal. Getting
11:20
Speaker 2: them to do it, recognizing that they're going to fail,
11:23
Speaker 2: because we all fail. But if we can do that,
11:26
Speaker 2: I just think we get much better outcomes and they learn,
11:29
Speaker 2: They learn to be resilient, they learn how to they
11:33
Speaker 2: learn how to regulate, they learn how to get beyond
11:38
Speaker 2: the challenges they're facing. Like the traditional parenting model, I
11:41
Speaker 2: come across a great quote from Mona Dellahok. I'm hoping
11:43
Speaker 2: to get her on the podcast and she's brilliant, and
11:46
Speaker 2: Mona Delahook said, traditional parenting is agnostic of social emotional development.
11:50
Speaker 2: In other words, when you're doing this standard parenting thing,
11:53
Speaker 2: you don't really care about what's going on socially and
11:54
Speaker 2: emotionally with your child. It's just, well, you've done the
11:57
Speaker 2: wrong thing. You want compliance, Yeah, that's right. Now you
11:59
Speaker 2: need to do the right thing. Whereas a more responsive
12:03
Speaker 2: approach is where we say you've done the wrong thing,
12:06
Speaker 2: you're really upset, Let's work through the emotional stuff first
12:09
Speaker 2: and then we can have a logical conversation. Kind of
12:11
Speaker 2: makes sense. I mean, if you've ever been in a
12:13
Speaker 2: blue with an adult, there's no point trying to get
12:16
Speaker 2: through this when you're both angry. You've got to go
12:18
Speaker 2: and cool down before you have a sensible conversation about it.
12:20
Speaker 2: That's really all we're talking about, and that's why I
12:22
Speaker 2: don't think we need to punish our kids. There's no
12:26
Speaker 2: justification for it, because once we get everyone calm, we
12:28
Speaker 2: can have conversations, problem solve and get on with things.
12:33
Speaker 4: The more I learn about myself and the way I
12:35
Speaker 4: deal with things, the more I'm recognizing just how integral
12:40
Speaker 4: learning to regulate one's emotions impacts every facet of our lives. Yeah,
12:46
Speaker 4: and so you've obviously talked through some of the things
12:49
Speaker 4: that we do. But if we could just break it
12:51
Speaker 4: down into some really simple steps. When we've got kids
12:54
Speaker 4: who are playing up, how do we teach them how
13:00
Speaker 4: to regulate their emotions so that they can work through
13:04
Speaker 4: those challenges in more effective ways, especially considering that as adults,
13:09
Speaker 4: most of us actually still struggle to do this ourselves.
13:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was going to be the first thing
13:14
Speaker 2: We've actually got to model it. We've got to be
13:16
Speaker 2: a good example of emotional and control ourselves. And I know,
13:20
Speaker 2: I mean I'll speak really personally, encounteredly. When I'm tired
13:24
Speaker 2: and the kids are going nuts, I just don't do
13:27
Speaker 2: as well. I'm much more likely to be volatile, to
13:30
Speaker 2: be frustrated, to be loud or even explosive and say
13:34
Speaker 2: that's it. I've had a laugh. This is ridiculous, because
13:37
Speaker 2: when we're tired and when we're hungry, when we're at
13:39
Speaker 2: the end of our tether, we just can't seem to
13:42
Speaker 2: do it nearly as well, so number one, we've got
13:45
Speaker 2: to keep it together ourselves, because emotions are contagious. High emotions,
13:48
Speaker 2: low intelligence. Once we're keeping it together. There's a question
13:51
Speaker 2: that I've started asking myself just in the last few weeks,
13:53
Speaker 2: and I think it's really powerful. How do I not
13:56
Speaker 2: add to my child's suffering right now? So when children
14:00
Speaker 2: are playing up, when they're behaving in challenging ways, it's
14:03
Speaker 2: because they're experiencing a challenge, they're experiencing hardship, they're experiencing
14:06
Speaker 2: difficulty to take it to an extreme, perhaps they're experiencing suffering.
14:10
Speaker 2: So I try to remember to ask myself, how can
14:14
Speaker 2: you not add to her suffering? Like, what can you do?
14:17
Speaker 2: How can you approach her in a way that will
14:19
Speaker 2: not make things worse for her? Because high emotions, low intelligence.
14:25
Speaker 2: When you're on the brink, you need to stop and think,
14:26
Speaker 2: we've got to pull things down. Emotions contagious. Once I've
14:30
Speaker 2: asked that question, I step in with much softer eyes,
14:33
Speaker 2: with a much more gentle and compassionate heart, and with
14:37
Speaker 2: a desire to help not hurt. At which point you
14:41
Speaker 2: separate the kids or you move them away from whatever
14:43
Speaker 2: it is that's causing the ruckus and say you have
14:47
Speaker 2: a really tough time. I'm not going to say anything
14:49
Speaker 2: to you. Just now, let's just go for a walk.
14:52
Speaker 2: Let's get you outside, Let's get you in a different
14:54
Speaker 2: environment where we can take a few deep breaths, and
14:56
Speaker 2: we'll deal with this a little bit later. Let's just
14:59
Speaker 2: get out out of the conflict situation. And I think
15:01
Speaker 2: that's actually enough because once you're out of the conflict situation,
15:05
Speaker 2: maybe you wait thirty seconds, maybe you wait thirty minutes,
15:07
Speaker 2: maybe you wait three hours, but then you can come
15:10
Speaker 2: back to it when everyone's in an emotionally cool state
15:12
Speaker 2: and say, hmm, let's figure this out. That that's the
15:16
Speaker 2: approach we're looking for. That's the outcome we try to achieve.
15:19
Speaker 4: What I love about this is when things don't work
15:23
Speaker 4: out like that, things escalate. They go from being hot
15:28
Speaker 4: to like boiling point very very quickly. But not only
15:35
Speaker 4: it does do things escalate usually between the two people
15:40
Speaker 4: that have started or instigated the struggle, but then you
15:45
Speaker 4: get involved, and often if there's another parent in the house,
15:48
Speaker 4: they get involved, and before you know it, you've got
15:50
Speaker 4: four or five people at top end emotions struggling to
15:56
Speaker 4: kind of work through this. Whereas, as you've talked about,
15:58
Speaker 4: I guess a better, better way of doing things says,
16:02
Speaker 4: I'm listening to you share all of that. I'm thinking
16:04
Speaker 4: about the times where it hasn't worked out like that
16:07
Speaker 4: and watched the climate in the house go from two
16:11
Speaker 4: children having an argument to now mom and dad being
16:14
Speaker 4: involved and heightened emotions on all levels, and it just
16:19
Speaker 4: escalates out of control very very quickly. Whereas, if we
16:24
Speaker 4: can take a step back and try that approach, as
16:28
Speaker 4: you've kind of articulated it so beautifully, what happens is
16:34
Speaker 4: we discharge the antagonism and anger in the room instead
16:43
Speaker 4: of adding to it, instead of having everything explode disportionately,
16:47
Speaker 4: we actually calm everything down and give it the space
16:52
Speaker 4: that it needs for everybody to start to think clearly
16:55
Speaker 4: and work through it at a much more intelligent leafs
17:00
Speaker 4: of thinking.
17:01
Speaker 2: And that's the secret. That's what we're trying to do.
17:03
Speaker 2: We've got a free course available to help you to
17:07
Speaker 2: do that. It's called the Timeout Alternative. It's a seven
17:09
Speaker 2: day course, ten minutes a day or you've got to
17:12
Speaker 2: it's normally seventy four bucks. That's what we're going to
17:14
Speaker 2: be charging for it. But it's free for a limited
17:16
Speaker 2: time only. Or you've got to do to find out
17:18
Speaker 2: about it is go to doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families
17:20
Speaker 2: on Facebook and we would love to give you access
17:23
Speaker 2: to it so you can stop getting kids in trouble
17:25
Speaker 2: and work through, workout problem solve together with your kids.
17:29
Speaker 2: Have a look at it. I think that you're going
17:31
Speaker 2: to find so much that will help you in our
17:34
Speaker 2: free seven day course, the Timeout Alternative. All the details
17:38
Speaker 2: at doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families. I'm going to go
17:41
Speaker 2: and jump onto Twitter right now, try and get hold
17:43
Speaker 2: of Ryan Reynolds, see if he'll come on the podcast
17:46
Speaker 2: with us, wish me luck.
17:48
Speaker 4: Or just let them know that miss missus Happy Families
17:50
Speaker 4: wants to talk to him.
17:51
Speaker 2: All right, Okay, no, no, I'm not going to let
17:54
Speaker 2: you do. I do all the interviews on this podcast.
17:56
Speaker 2: I do the interviews, and that's the way it's going
17:58
Speaker 2: to stay, especially with Ryan Renolds. Hey tomorrow, I'll do
18:01
Speaker 2: better tomorrow. Please join us. Then, thank you so much
18:03
Speaker 2: for listening to the podcast. We hope it's been helpful.
18:05
Speaker 2: The Happy Families Podcast as always produced by Justin Rouland
18:08
Speaker 2: from Bridge Media, Craig Bruce our executive producer for more.
18:11
Speaker 2: If I visit us at happy families dot com, do
18:13
Speaker 2: you