Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / The Numbing Trap: From Ozempic to "Biohacking" Our Way Out of Reality (Benjamin Matthew)

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The Numbing Trap: From Ozempic to "Biohacking" Our Way Out of Reality (Benjamin Matthew) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode
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  Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer. I'm joined again
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  Speaker 1: by Ben Matthews. Ben is a professor of counselor education
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  Speaker 1: at Columbia International University. And today we're going to be
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  Speaker 1: talking a little bit about addiction and the numbing effects
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  Speaker 1: of addiction and the new drug trends that are coming out.
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  Speaker 1: And Ben and I were talking a little bit before
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  Speaker 1: the episode. I'm most familiar with this. I still stay
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  Speaker 1: involved a little bit with the fitness industry and try
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  Speaker 1: to keep up there. And one of the things that
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  Speaker 1: you're seeing if you look at any sort of fitness
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  Speaker 1: thing on Instagram or if you just read any of
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  Speaker 1: the literature, you're seeing this increase in testosterone placement therapy.
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  Speaker 1: You're seeing an increase in steroid use. You're seeing use
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  Speaker 1: of drugs like the glp ones and ozembic those are
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  Speaker 1: kind of all over the place, and all of these
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  Speaker 1: maybe except for the GOLP ones, which there's not been
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  Speaker 1: a long term sort of study on these, but everybody
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  Speaker 1: knows what happens with the antabolic steroids, like it's not
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  Speaker 1: pretty later and you're having younger and younger kids get
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  Speaker 1: on this stuff, and no matter how much people push
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  Speaker 1: back in the fitness industry like hey, don't take this
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  Speaker 1: until you're older or whatever, it's being normalized in ways
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  Speaker 1: that is really strange and is creating these very short
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  Speaker 1: term trade offs between I can get a big Instagram
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  Speaker 1: following and get huge and get cut and I guess
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  Speaker 1: I don't care about the long term effects of anabolic steroids.
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  Speaker 1: It's a very strange movement. And my sense is that
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  Speaker 1: it's not limited to the fitness industry, and so that's
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  Speaker 1: sort of just a little entred into what we're to
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  Speaker 1: be talking about here.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's something that we're seeing within the mental
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  Speaker 2: health community as well. In a past graduate program I did,
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  Speaker 2: one of my internships was at an outpatient psychiatric clinic,
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  Speaker 2: and so I was mainly working with physicians who were
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  Speaker 2: mainly just working with prescriptions. And this was kind of
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  Speaker 2: you know, late nineties, early two thousands, as we were
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  Speaker 2: seeing the rise of what's known as SSRIs selective serotonin
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  Speaker 2: reuptake inhibitors as a major advancement for therapeutic use for
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  Speaker 2: things like depression and anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder and
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  Speaker 2: a host of other things that are connected to the
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  Speaker 2: neurotransmitter serotonin. What we've appreciated over time is that, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: there's probably an element of serotonagic engagement regarding mental health issues.
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  Speaker 2: But to say that it's simply a physiological that it's
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  Speaker 2: just a neurotransmitter that's being developed was the concern that
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  Speaker 2: we started seeing in that people just thought, well, if
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  Speaker 2: I just take this pill and get my chemistry right,
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  Speaker 2: life will be great.
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  Speaker 1: All good, Yeah, it's all good, and.
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  Speaker 2: Not recognizing well, no, your physiology is one component of
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  Speaker 2: the problem, and yes, this may help that one component,
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  Speaker 2: but if you don't address all the other not just biological,
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  Speaker 2: but psychological, social, spiritual elements that go into holistic understandings
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  Speaker 2: of humanity, it's no surprise that we would only see
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  Speaker 2: the increase of dosage here because they're never dealing with
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  Speaker 2: it over there. Kind of like the steroid user, well,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to have to do all things, but
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  Speaker 2: if I just increase my steroid intake, I'll get ripped
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  Speaker 2: faster and cut quicker. And well, yeah, no, you're you're
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  Speaker 2: actually making the problem worse, and that you're relying on
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  Speaker 2: this one what I call a common grace of God.
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  Speaker 2: I do look at medicine as a means that can help,
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  Speaker 2: and I don't want to again, kind of like technology,
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  Speaker 2: I don't think we should throw it all away. I
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  Speaker 2: think it's it's obviously done good for society in many
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  Speaker 2: many ways. But if we're just it's the mechanistic concern, right,
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  Speaker 2: if we're just a machine, then that's the answer. But
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  Speaker 2: from a Christian perspective, we know we're more than just
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  Speaker 2: a machine. We are this holistic reality of mind, body,
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  Speaker 2: spirit that all elements need to be engaged with. And
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  Speaker 2: there's sometimes a concern that we have that I think
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  Speaker 2: we're coming to an understanding of that with SSRIs. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: there is another concern that we're now kind of treating
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  Speaker 2: the therapeutic community in general kind of as the next
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  Speaker 2: I can say it this way, the next SSRI. If
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  Speaker 2: I can just get the therapy I need, it'll all
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  Speaker 2: be great.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. This came up at the end of our last episode,
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  Speaker 1: and I think you said it really well there, it's
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  Speaker 1: like it's meeting the need, but it can sustain the
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  Speaker 1: need exactly. It can't be the long term solution here.
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  Speaker 1: Here there's you know, it's almost like there's a a
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  Speaker 1: little mini crisis happening. Let's say, and and so everybody's
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  Speaker 1: on triage and as the triage system. This is a
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  Speaker 1: really good triage, right, it's an aspect of a triage system.
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  Speaker 1: But if something else doesn't get fixed, this is going
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  Speaker 1: to cease to work at some point, right right, Like,
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  Speaker 1: this isn't gonna the mash ten is not going to
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  Speaker 1: hold we if we don't you know, if we don't
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  Speaker 1: figure something else out along the sides here, some other
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  Speaker 1: areas have to be addressed.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it goes from a point of well, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it can meet the need. But when it, like we
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  Speaker 2: said before, it doesn't sustain it, but we keep on
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  Speaker 2: using it, it becomes then not just a matter of
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  Speaker 2: addressing the problem, but now I got to use it
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  Speaker 2: to kind of just numb the problem. Like, Okay, it
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  Speaker 2: continues not work, but I'm in the cycle of it now,
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  Speaker 2: I'm in the constant grip of it. Whether that be
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  Speaker 2: a pharma pharmacological reality, whether that be alcohol. The article
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  Speaker 2: we keep referencing talked about the particular spike of alcoholism, yes,
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  Speaker 2: and the corollaries to that, and how that just continue
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  Speaker 2: to see this increase of liver disease and all kinds
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  Speaker 2: of problems because they thought and it did help on
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  Speaker 2: a little level, but once you get into the grips
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  Speaker 2: of it, now you're just having to use it to
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  Speaker 2: maintain numbness, not health, not above the fray, but just
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  Speaker 2: to be able to kind of basic function, to just
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  Speaker 2: numb the pain that you're dealing with at some point.
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  Speaker 2: But it continues just to dig the hole, right, it
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  Speaker 2: actually makes things worse, so you just take more, and
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  Speaker 2: this endless cycle of addiction just continues to spiral out
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  Speaker 2: of hand.
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  Speaker 1: When I think it's an intes Mark Lewis wrote this
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  Speaker 1: article in the New England Journal of Medicine, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: not an addiction expert by any stretch of the imagination.
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  Speaker 1: So his argument was that addiction is less a disease
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  Speaker 1: state than it is a learned behavior. Now, I don't
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  Speaker 1: know that i'd be that strong on it, but one
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  Speaker 1: of the things he said really rang true with me,
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  Speaker 1: which was one we get into when people are addicted,
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  Speaker 1: their social world shrink. And so you know, Ben, if
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  Speaker 1: I'm addicted and I know that you're going to tell
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  Speaker 1: me I should go get help, I'm probably going to
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  Speaker 1: avoid you, right like I don't. You're of no help
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  Speaker 1: to me because you're not going to help me feed
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  Speaker 1: my addiction. So I'm going to seek out people who
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  Speaker 1: are only going to help me feed my addiction. And
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  Speaker 1: that's how the social world narrows, because now the point
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  Speaker 1: of life is to get past this, to get this
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  Speaker 1: thing that I think I need. And so the other
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  Speaker 1: options that might otherwise be available right to me, the
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  Speaker 1: choices that I might make in my life, sort of
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  Speaker 1: fade into the background. I can't see him anymore. There's
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  Speaker 1: a real way in which they cease to exist for me,
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  Speaker 1: right because I'm so focused on this one thing. And
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  Speaker 1: so he calls this like narrowing. It's been phrased as
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  Speaker 1: reciprocal narrowing, where the addiction continually narrows you down so
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  Speaker 1: that eventually you're just really seeking exactly what you're addicted to.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the model. Like I said, I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure on the science, that's just not my area, but
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  Speaker 1: I like the model and it seems intuitively correct to say,
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  Speaker 1: even with something like therapy, you could see how that
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  Speaker 1: would begin to work. If therapy is the solution to
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  Speaker 1: my problem, I'm going to continue going to therapy, and
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter what anyone else says to me, like,
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  Speaker 1: be sure, friends might help, but I've got therapy. You know,
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  Speaker 1: all these other being part of a community group, sure
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  Speaker 1: that might help, but I've got therapy. And like, a
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  Speaker 1: lot of these things are going to become I think,
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  Speaker 1: increasingly difficult to convince people to go and do, simply
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  Speaker 1: because if lewis right about his reciprocal narrowing, it's going
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  Speaker 1: to be really difficult to get people off, you know.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't think it's about drugs. It's about this
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  Speaker 1: sort of narrowing a perception so that these other solutions
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  Speaker 1: no longer feel like solutions. We've so framed the problem
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  Speaker 1: as Nope, it's a problem that only you know. The
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  Speaker 1: solution to this problem is therapy, and once you do that,
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  Speaker 1: it's very difficult to understand what other options might be
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  Speaker 1: available to you.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I agree, I think there may be an
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  Speaker 2: an oversimplification of maybe what he's stating, and we need
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  Speaker 2: to give some space for that. I do think there
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: was a research done a number of years ago by
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  Speaker 2: Alexander It's called rat Park experiment. I don't know if
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  Speaker 2: you've heard of that before, but it was trying to
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  Speaker 2: get into some of these things that you were talking about.
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  Speaker 2: They essentially had two groups of rats, one that we're
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: in a preclosed system, one that had this like essentially
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  Speaker 2: rat paradise. Right, they had open fields, they kind of
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: had full access to, you know, members of the opposite sex,
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  Speaker 2: so very closed, and they both had access to a
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  Speaker 2: morphine drip. Okay, the research has been tried to replicate
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  Speaker 2: a couple of times with some levels of success and
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: things like that, so there's some good criticisms of it.
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  Speaker 2: But what the finding is essentially were was that those
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  Speaker 2: that were in like rat paradise had a lower incidence
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  Speaker 2: of engaging with the morphine and continued engage or addiction
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  Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, comparatively to those that were in a
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  Speaker 2: much more stressful, confined space that didn't have all the
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  Speaker 2: luxuries as all the all the blessings if I can't
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  Speaker 2: even use that word. They found the utilization of the
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  Speaker 2: morphine drip to be more in the sense addictive Now again,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to to to flatten addiction out to
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  Speaker 2: just well, just change your environment, life will be better.
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  Speaker 2: That's way too much of an oversimplification, agreed. But what
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  Speaker 2: the research did highlight was that we're again naive to
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  Speaker 2: think that there isn't a sociological societal connection to why
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  Speaker 2: people are constantly engaging with numbing activities like morphine, if
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  Speaker 2: not gambling, if not drugs, if not social media, whatever
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  Speaker 2: it is that we continue to then utilize, not just
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  Speaker 2: because of its numbing properties that kind of just flatten
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  Speaker 2: us out to not have to deal with the larger things,
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  Speaker 2: but because we're not engaging in these larger perspectives of
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  Speaker 2: what we need for a functioning society, community, recreation, engagement
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  Speaker 2: of intimacy, all the things that these rats were able
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  Speaker 2: to have. How much more do we need as people
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  Speaker 2: made in the image of God? That when those are gone,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: it doesn't cause addiction, but it makes addiction a lot
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  Speaker 2: more powerful, It gives it more precedence in a person's life.
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  Speaker 2: When you don't have all the things that you need
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  Speaker 2: for human flourishing, you will reach out for whatever you
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  Speaker 2: can to numb the pain. And there's something about that
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  Speaker 2: that I think that needs to speak into. I think
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  Speaker 2: what even counseling is doing these days, what the therapeutic
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  Speaker 2: community is doing, is we're providing another morphine drip of
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: sorts where people are struggling and they're hurting, and again,
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  Speaker 2: I think we need to meet them where they're at. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: but if we're not dealing with these larger systemic realities
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  Speaker 2: of what's constituting why they're in pain, am I just
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  Speaker 2: feeding the addiction? And that's part of the stewardship thing
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  Speaker 2: that I was talking about before that as part of
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  Speaker 2: a member of this community, I want to speak lovingly, winsomely,
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  Speaker 2: but clearly to my colleagues and say, what are we
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  Speaker 2: doing not just to help at the moment, but to
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  Speaker 2: actually help with the greater need that I think is
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  Speaker 2: pressing as to what got people into that moment as well.
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  Speaker 1: No, so you're saying we need a rap paradise at
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  Speaker 1: the end of the day, I'm hearing that clearly, totally
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  Speaker 1: get No. I agree, I mean, and I don't want
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: to boil addiction down to just environment either, but I'm
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  Speaker 1: with you. I think there are factors. Environmental factors are real.
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  Speaker 1: We shouldn't be ignoring them. The chemical dependencies are real
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: and we shouldn't be ignoring them. That you know, the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: psychological factors are real and we shouldn't be ignoring them.
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  Speaker 1: And so in saying just those three, if you are
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: only to address the psychological factors and environmental and the
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: physiological aside, you're.
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  Speaker 3: Probably not going to solve the problem, right, exactly, right,
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  Speaker 3: Like there needs to be these more holistic approaches and
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: understandings to how we would go about addressing these things,
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: because if there aren't.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: The problem is going to probably not going to get solved. Yeah, right,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: And I mean I think that's sort of the challenge
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: here is we we don't know how to we probably
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: should we probably we probably should know how to address
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: it holistically. But again, as our study that we've been
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: basing this on the death of the spare study, I'll
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: use this example as barriers as there are lower barriers
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: to entry to anything, you can expect for the quality
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: of those things to decline. Yeah right now, I'm not
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: saying that the therapeutic environment is in decline. So when
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: I'm saying quality, here's what I'm saying. The sort of
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: people who are going to come and seek therapy, probably
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to come and seek therapy, right, Like,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: That's part of the overall quality of the environment. And
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: I think you've articulated that really well. So it's not
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: saying you're going to get a second rate therapist, it's
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: saying you probably didn't need therapy in the first place.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: That degrades the quality of what's going on there to
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: some degree. It sort of pulls it down from when
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: you're dealing with someone who has a complex trauma to
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: someone who you know, got a paper cut this morning
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: and they're really distraught about it, right right. So so
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: there's that aspect, And what kind of comes to my mind,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: you know, is we think about access and what we
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: have access to and what's fairly addictive. Nowadays it's not
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: just drugs, although that's also the case, but you know,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: you think about something like pornography.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I can remember growing up as a kid
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and you had these video stores, these mythic animal video
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: stores that nobody knows what I'm talking about anymore. You
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: used to have to go to a store roun a.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Video to go to a place, right Yeah.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: And even before VHS tapes, you'd have the CD sort
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: of adult theaters. But just think about the societal restraints
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: that were in place to access these places. You had
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: to be over a certain age to get in, You
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: had to overcome any sort of fear that you would
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: be seen entering or exiting these places. Right. You know,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: in the case of a video store, if you wanted
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: to get an adult movie, you had to actually bring
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: it to whoever was at the counter, and right, like,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: you have all these like sort of oddities that you
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: have to go through, and you like psychologically you have
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: to overcome these and be like, Okay, I guess it's
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: worth it, right, Whereas now there are basically none of
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: those nothing, right. And so even some of the legislation
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: related to age requirements that has been put in place,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I was I've been doing some watching of that, and
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: people are actually saying, like, it's curtailing pornography use because
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: people don't want to verify their age because it makes
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the activity less anonymous. And so that's what I mean, Like,
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: when we have these barriers to entry that are really
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: really low, people are going to flow into those spaces
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: that have no reason to be there. Yeah, right, and
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and this sort of over flows the system.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, which is where we're at it, right.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: And and it's like maybe if we just ratchet the
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: barriers up a little bit, if we if we created
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: some environmental structure and and and made it so that
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: not everybody needed to come in, we could solve this problem.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: But that's not a therapist problem. That's a societal problem.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: And that's that's a great point, James, because the hope
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: is that we're I mean, the deeper work of healing
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: is about rebuilding meaning and belonging. That that needs to
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: happen in the context of those communities that were becoming
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: more isolated for more anonymous from you know that the
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: problem is not necessarily uh that that we are sexual
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: beings and desire to find stimulation of that. It's where
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: we think it's best found, right exactly that that that
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that continues to be the narrative unfortunately from the garden right.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: If I can just get it on my terms, if
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I can just build my own reality, then I can
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: be God. I can do as I want in that sense,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: And unfortunately, we continue to believe the lie. We continue
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: to build the lie and become much more insular, much
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: more isolated. And so for me again as a therapist.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I want to give space opportunity for people to talk
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: about those things, those struggles, And yet I also realize
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I need to push, I need to challenge people to say, yeah,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: but this needs to happen long before you probably came
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: into my office. Now, whether that's a lack of the
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: local church or the community, or yourself, or it's probably
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: a mix of most of those things, right, And so
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: how can I then both give you space to kind
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: of discuss those realities and say, Okay, how do we
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: rebuild that? And that, to me is part of the
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: joy of what I do in counseling. I not only
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: want to help you in the moment, I want to
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: help rebuild towards something better that this is. I mean
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: to put it in the arc of the gospel narrative,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: we're on this side of the cross. The work is done,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: and we're doing the work. He declares triumphantly, it is finished.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: And so we know that the redemption, as it were,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: is complete. And yet kind of like the garden, we're
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: in the garden two point zero where God says, Okay, now,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: I'd like to partner with you to then re engage,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: to re repurpose the earth and the communities that I
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: set up for flourishing, not because I need you, not
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: like he needed Adam and Eve in Garden one point.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Oh right, but he wants to work with us as
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: image bearers. I now have a chance not just in
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: the therapy, but beyond the therapy to help clients and
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: others say, how do we start rebuilding these communities of flourishing.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: What does that look like for this to actually be
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: a part of what we need. Because it's easy to
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: get the therapy, it's it's I want to be care
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: why I say that it's actually quite hard to find
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: a therapist. Yeah, but we're making more therapists, and that
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: the the opportunity to get counseling is much easier than
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: it was in the past. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, say
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I the stigma is lower, like exactly, You've mentioned that too, Yeah, right,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: the stigma is lower, And so in that sense, it's
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: it's easier to get counseling. Yeah, But just because it's easier,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: as we've seen with so many other addictions, just because
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: the barriers are removed, doesn't necessarily mean that it's it's
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: necessarily a better thing. Even when it's a good thing.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing to talk about illicit drugs
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: and pornography and all these vices. I am not saying
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: that therapy is on par with.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Those vices, No, no, Yeah, the point is the barrier.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: When the barriers are brought down, you're going to have
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: an influx of people who are going to try this.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: They're they're going to see it as an a ready solution. Yeah,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: And I think part of it you'd mentioned it in
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: a previous episode, where you know you're not going to
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: drift toward all holiness. Yeah, I do think we tend
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: to drift toward ease, right, And so you know, you
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: think about counseling, like there was there used to be
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: a stigma around counseling. If you're going to counseling, it's like,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: oh right, marital count Oh that's wow, you guys must
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: really be on the rocks. Whereas now marital counseling it's like,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: that's cool, that's probably good for you. Right. You know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: there's been this complete shift away from from that stigma
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: of any of it. And so what that does then
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: is it makes it just that much easier. And and
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I think there's a there's an importance to that. It
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: needed to get easier, right, but then it gets too easy,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and then it and then it gets like and then
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: it's it's like if you're not in counseling, you feel
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: less normal, you know, you have like there's these gradations
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: of ease that I think are really problematic for us.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: And that's where I would say, you know, the the
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: connection between some of these other addictions as becomes like
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: it's just easier to go and take a pill as
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: opposed to actually work on myself. It's easier to you know,
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: go find pornography on the internet and had to go
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: find a sexual relationship, right, right. And I think that
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: as we sort of move into the next generation, these
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: are things we probably have to be concerned with. Yeah,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: you know, it's life has It's not that life has
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: become easier, it's that access to some of these things
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: that are really important has become easier. I mean it
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: was just sorry, some innocuous, like well quasi innocuous. The
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: legalization of marijuana.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah easier.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Right. It used to be you could get in trouble
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: for owning, you know, for having marijuana. Now you can
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: walk in almost like there's like six stores on my
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: way to the grocery store, right your stop and get something,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: you know, so anyway, go ahead, Sorry, No, you.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Got to be thinking about that. That phrasing that I
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: really like that you're using the ease of utilizing steroids
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: so you can forego working out the ease of pornography
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: so you don't have to, so you can forego real
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: intimacy and the work that that takes. Again, fully recognizing
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: we're not saying therapy is on par with those vices,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: but there is an ease of therapy that makes the
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: harder but good work of rebuilding community a lot harder, right,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And I want to applaud where we can applaud that
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: there has been a destigmatizing but I continue to appreciate
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: how you're phrasing it that way. The ease, yes, and
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: whether it is the actual therapy, whether it is digital
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: platforms that allow for that, which again I think started
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: for some really good areas, people in rural communities, those
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: who are disabled, those who don't have that have mobility issues.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: There's good reasons that we develop these technologies in order
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: to meet marginalized communities. That's a good thing. Yeah, And
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: you know what, happens is that those who probably don't
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: need it want to use it, right, And then it's
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: that little Yeah, but it's easier for me just to
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: sit on my couch and get therapy.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: It's easy, I know.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: It is, But is it better?
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah? And I mean I think we're seeing that in
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: a whole host of places, and so maybe And I
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: wouldn't call any of these addictions necessarily. I know we've
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: kind of we kind of circled through it through addiction.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: But I think when you start to get into the
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: ease you mentioned in a previous episode, you know, it's
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: easier for me just to PLoP down my fee, come
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: and talk to Ben, and to go meet friends. Making
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: friends is hard, it's awkward, it's sometimes annoying. That's difficult,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: but I know what I'm getting when I come to
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: my therapist, and I'm willing to pay for it, and
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: it's just easier for me, right, Like you, we get
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: in this groove of I'm just going to follow the
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: path of least resistance because it's there, and if somebody
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: can't follow the least resistance, we're kind of like, well,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: what's the matter with you?
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, exactly. And in ways that then, because I
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: realize again, since I don't drift towards holiness, I do
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: drift towards ease. To put it in your phrasing, Yeah,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not convinced that struggling towards holiness, if I can
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: kind of use that language, then is actually better. It
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: just seems like work, and it is work. I want
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: to fully affirm that it is harder in that sense.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: It is, But but am I convinced that? This is
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: where I referenced Careker guard before? To me, he was helpful,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: say are you willing to take, as it were, a
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: leap of faith? And I don't think he was arguing
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: an irrationality to faith. I think he was arguing for
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: a willingness to believe in something that is beyond understanding
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: but is still better. Whereas the writer of Hebrew says,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: faith is the assurance of things not seen. It's both
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: it's and it's an assurance. It's this heartfelt conviction. I
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: don't get it, but it's better. Am I willing then
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: to push into it? Like many of the heroes of
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: our faith did in generations past, they didn't always see
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: the promise that was to come, yet they endured with
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: great patience. I'm realizing how we need to build that.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I'm pleading as I love my works as a professor
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: in developing the next generation of therapists. We also have
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: a PhD program, so I'm developing the next generation of
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: professors who are developing the next generation of therapists. I
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: feel incredibly blessed to do both, and in some ways
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: kind of like a fraud because I'm also telling them, yes,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: help all the people you can and make sure they
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: don't need you all the time. Like, I don't think
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: there's gonna be a lack of counseling. But if you're
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: continuing to see the same people over the same issues,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I wonder if we're not exacerbating the problem that's bringing
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: them in to begin with.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's this idea in technology technological circles
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: about revenge effects. I don't you ever read it, but
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: there's a book out there. I can't remember who wrote it,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: but he coined this idea of revenge effects. So every
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: technology has its revenge effect. Everything we create tends to
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: come back to biteas in some way. Oh wow, OK, right,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: And so the way I tend to think about this,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: it's like Yeah. I had a friend one time use
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: this analogy with me. It's like a babymobile. Any side
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: of that babymobile you touch it, other sides are going
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: to move and you're not going to be able to
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: predict exactly how they're going to move. Right. Every time
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you touch it, you create a little bit of chaos, Right,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: And I think that's the situation we're just in. Yeah,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's something we have to work toward.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: And I think even in working away from where we are,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: we're going to be find ourselves in another situation of chaos.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: This side, and it affects this thing over here.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: And so I think that we sort of have to
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: give ourselves a little bit of a break in recognizing that, hey,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: if this is what needs to be done in the moment,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: let's do it in the moment. Where I think we
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: may give ourselves a little too much of a break.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Isn't saying I'm only going to do this in the moment,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: I'm going to ignore everything else. And so there has
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: to be this sort of realization that the solutions we're
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: putting into effect or will actually probably solve a very
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: particular problem. But there's a big, bad world out there,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: and we've got to figure out how then to solve
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the rest of these problems. How do we incentivize certain things,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: decentivize certain things, How do we form people who are
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: going to have the sort of instincts that will lead
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: them away from the perils of easiness and toward a
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: more of a formative struggle, right, Like, those are the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: big questions that we're always going to have to ask
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: and answer it as human beings. Yeah, and so I
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: think as we as we kind of talk like numbness,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: like whatever we're using to numb ourselves is really just
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: an escape from the pain. Maybe it's legitimate pain, like
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: some sort of trauma of some sort of you know,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: like you know, I blew out a disc in my
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: back when I was in my twenties. Still hurts, right,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: So sometimes you want to take something to numb that pain. Right.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: I think there's legitimate times when numbing is appropriate.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: But if all we're doing is numbing and numbing and
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: numbing and numbing and numbing, now what are we doing. Well,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: we're ignoring the formative aspects of our lives and we're
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: just focused on getting through without hurting.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and what if the pain that we're trying
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: to numb is actually intended to bring you to something
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: bigger and better. Can we just keep on? Philip Brief,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: he's a sociologist, talks about how, yeah, the religious man
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: was as you say, the religious man was born to
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: be saved, the psychological man was born to be pleased. Yes,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: this is the concern that I have with a therapeutic community.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: We can help here, but we miss some of the
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: realities that because we are we're not either religious or psychological,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: we're both. So we we think that if I just
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: deal with the psychological everything will be fine. But we're
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: not because there's still this other reality, this this disconnection
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: that the pain is trying to wake us up. Right.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Lewis talks about pain being God's megaphone to rouse a
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: deaf world. What if we're doing more disservice by not
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: allowing that pain to have its recourse, to have its
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: day in court as it were, to be able to
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: move us towards something better, towards the the the needs
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: that are not just religious or psychological, but are both. Yea,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: and I think that then helps us engage in a
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: much more holistic sense what we're trying to do with
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: humans what we're trying to do with society and has
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: has the ship sailed? Perhaps, and it's not going to
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: turn on a dive. And this is the Titanic, right,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: just because we see that the iceberg doesn't mean we're
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: we're probably still gonna hit it. And we're seeing the
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: effects of that today in all kinds of horrific ways.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And yet this is I still think the joy of
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: what we as Christians have part of why I love
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: coming on your podcast, James, because the ability to think creatively,
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: how can we consider the iceberg but still be part
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: of the process of moving still still be part of
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: the restoration, the recreation of what was lost at the fall,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: what was fought for at the cross by our Lord,
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: and what we now get to enter into as is
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: image makers that we are giving meaning to something more.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think the interesting part about that analogy
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: you're using, right, You're on the Titanic, You're in the front,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and you're sitting there going, yeah, we're gonna hit that iceberg.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: It's like there's no way to turn it, like you know,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: and so where our minds need to start going is
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: not how do we avoid the iceberg. Right, it's what
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: do we do after we hit it?
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Right? Right?
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: And and that's sort of what I'm I think it
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: requires an alertness to have that sort of mentality, Yeah,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: and not give up. That requires grit, which we've talked
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: about across this series. Numbness fights against all of that. Yeah, right,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Numbness is the guy who's you know, sitting there going, well,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: we're hitting the iceberg. I guess I'm dead.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Let's just sit back and watch the show.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see what happens. You know, who knows what
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: it'll be like to die in freezing water? I guess
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: we'll find out whatever like there. But that's what I think.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Numbness sort of breeds. It's not going to breed solutions,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: and it's not going to breed faithful activity. It's just
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: going to breed numbness.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: And that's a scary thought to me, is that, you know,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: the younger generation gets frozen in this place where they
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: can't even muster the energy to face the problems. You know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of times when people ask me
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: about shut ole in the Old Testament? Right, what is
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: shut Oh? And I'm like, here's the way I conceive
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: of it, right, it's the underworld and the Old Testament.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I think of it like the beach vacations
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I used to take with my wife. Right, I'm pretty
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: energetic guy. I like to be out hiking or doing whatever,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: and so we go on the beach and she just
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: likes to lay in suntan. That's just her vibe, right,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: She'll read a book all week. That was the worst
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: possible vacation for me. I'm like, I just feel like
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: a lump of sludge that has been laying here forever.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, you just get in this funk, in
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: this malaise where it's just like like can it be
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: over yet? Home yet? Can I go back to work now?
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm like that was show O in the Old Testament.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: It's this sort of malaise that comes over us where
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: we're just almost tortured by the non event that is
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the afterlife. And when I think of numbing, that's what
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I think about. It's like everybody's trying to get to
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the non event. Oh wow, and you just sit back
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: and you're like, well, no, this is where some drugs
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: could help, right, And I'm not talking about like psychedelics
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: or something like that. But like this is where we
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: need to sort of plug in and actually you know, say,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: you know, like maybe you need some vitamin D man,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Like you know, like there are these things where we
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: we could actually benefit. Maybe you do need some therapy,
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: maybe you do need this, maybe you do need that.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I think the
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: trajectory of all of this, and this is where i'd
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: kind of encourage you is like everything you've talked about
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: across the across the series has been when a client
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: comes in, what you really want them to do is
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: you want them to go out and have agency something.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Don't just keep coming to me. I'm going to keep
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: pushing you away from me, Right, That's the agency that
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I think we need. We need to stay away from
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: the numbing and push people whack out, not into the
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: pain necessarily, but certainly into the struggle. Yeah.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Because yeah, we're not favoring masochistic responses here, that that's
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: not the intent here. But in fact, what I think
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: is Victor Frankel talked about this in man Search for Meaning,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: when when people have no meaning that they distract themselves
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: with pleasure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And if anyone I mean
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: as a survivor of the Holocaust. This is literally what
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: he saw in the camps was if there was a
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: person in that context that had no meaning, they would
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: die before the gas chamber and would welcome the gas
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: chamber if they didn't. But if a person had meaning,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: they could actually go to the gas chamber with still
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: a sense of joy, and that much more survive after
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: it if they never had to endure that that meaning.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Now again in froncles constructing, I don't think he was
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: necessarily thinking about a theological response to the Gospel. But
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: I think you and I understand, and our listeners that
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: have that understand how much more when we're able to
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: push individuals to the greatest meaning that then not uses
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: pleasure as a distraction, but actually puts it in its
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: right order, right, It puts it in a construct that says,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: now God made pleasure to be part of this experience,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: because I can find the giver of the pleasure, not
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: just the pleasure itself. That to me is I'm constantly
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: telling my students I want you to have a good
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: work and a good practice, and ethically, I think you
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: need to work yourself out of a job. I don't
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: think actuality that will happen. But I think we do
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: a disservice to our clients when we're not helping them
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: develop more sense of autonomy an agency in the ways
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: that actually not just helps them, but actually helps society
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: and has a healing effect on the nations.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Agreed.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: The thing that I think that we're all moving towards
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: come the Lord's return as well.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think it will always be there. I
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: don't think they're going to have any trouble not working
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: themselves out the job, but I agree with you that
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: they should try. Yeah, that is the you know, you've
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: talked about the tension Chesterton's tension, right, that is, that's
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: what it is. You should be working yourself out of
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: a job, but you never actually will.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: So sore both. Just embrace both, Just embrace towards both.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Do the best you can with the clients in front
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: of you, and do the best you can to make
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: sure they don't have to stay in front of you.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that we could say the same
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: thing for the people who are seeking it out. You know,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: maybe you know, maybe the right diagnosis is, hey, don't
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: don't just jump into therapy, right, maybe not make it
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: your first option, but if you need it, it's fine.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Just know you're working your way.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Out of it right right structures in place that help
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: you give some guidelines to it exactly.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, this has been awesome, great episode, great series.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Really appreciate you being on.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Has been good conversations hopefully.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Folks. This is the last episode of the series. If
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: you missed the previous ones, go back and listen to them.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: They're absolutely worth worth a listen. And thanks for sticking
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: with us as far and we will catch you on
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take Care. I just
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.