Latest / One Voice Many Conversations / Crushing Strongholds #045-Guest Speaker Dustin Kleinschmidt-The Wilderness Way

Transcript

Crushing Strongholds #045-Guest Speaker Dustin Kleinschmidt-The Wilderness Way · One Voice Many Conversations

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, everyone.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to another great episode of Crushing Strongholds.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast where we turn pain into power, trauma into triumph, and a place where we get to be a better version of ourselves.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also a place where we get to expose the lies of the enemy.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we do that?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: We do that through the truth and the love of Jesus Christ.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's also a place where we get to share testimonies of our faith and what God has brought us through.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I honestly believe in my heart that as we share testimonies, it really helps to dismantle strongholds that we face.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm really excited.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I have um a wonderful guest.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: He is an author, he's a coach, a former pastor of 25 years in the ministry.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um experience um publishing the book The Wilderness Way: Finding Freedom in Life's Fractures, which is a great title.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love the title of this book.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um all around just seems like a really great individual, and I cannot wait to introduce him.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um, Dustin, welcome to Crushing Strongholds.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Glad to have you here today.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Mickey, thank you for having me.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Super excited for this conversation, and thank you for the opportunity.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm excited.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so um you have been in a pastoral position for 25 years, um, and then you decided to write a book.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um so I'm sure you've seen and and dealt with a lot of um, you know, different types of things.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I noticed when I was reading uh through some of your your stuff, um, some of the stuff that you've navigated through with you know um burnout, um helping minus ministry leaders and um people dealing with grief and doubt and spiritual um disillusionment.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, what about for yourself?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of testimonies have you had to face?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that um it a lot of those.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one of the cool things I think about my relationship with God from the very beginning, I became a Christian in high school, was that the way He wired me is I'm I'm always I'm designed to help others based on what I'm learning.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always been, you know, a lot of it's been out of my own mistakes.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like as I mess up, I'm like, okay, it's thore that one away for later.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm able to kind of it gives me a sense of connectedness and empathy for others as I've helped them navigate their experiences.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it served me really well in ministry.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for all those years, you know, I um growing up, I grew up in a messy childhood, messy home.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I already had even uh going in some uh a lot of trauma, you could say, um, you know, from abuse and and just neglect, all kinds of different things going on in my early childhood.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, by the time I came to faith in high school, um, you know, I you you've built all these layers that you don't even necessarily know are there that are really driving a lot of your disposition.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and in uh in late high school, I had a really cool experience with the Lord um where I really started to I hone in on this my sense of worth and identity.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that was a big deal because I had felt very much like uh, and I think it's been an ongoing narrative, and I'm sure this will tie into even later on, but the sense that I was not enough or was too much.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a pretty big personality.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's so simultaneously, I would feel like I'm not enough for people and then I'm too much for people.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it became it created an insecurity in me that you know, in many ways fueled much of my youth and early 20s.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it fueled uh in a good way, it it sparked me to pursue growth and development um and becoming the a better version of myself.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then there's always shot the shadow side, right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like this this kind of clamoring for significance or a sense of purpose.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, in all of that, like I don't think that's why I went into ministry.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I know I genuinely went into ministry because I loved the church.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: I loved how the church had supported me and become my family, having such a messed up family.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also wanting to help others with that in in so many ways.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, like those were like core kind of things that have uh plagued me, is probably the wrong word, but things that have been common threads through my whole spiritual journey that were in many ways strongholds, you know.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I was thinking about this conversation and I was like, okay, what what were these strongholds in my life?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Ironically, I would say the biggest stronghold was me.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was me buying the lies that the enemy would subtly feed all the way through, and not even though I knew truth, um, struggling to integrate that truth into my whole life.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a great way to um sum that up because I've always said that um even with myself, that sometimes we have to get out of our own way.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're we end up being our roadblock, you know.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I can kind of relate with you with, you know, um growing with growing up in an abusive um childhood and foster homes and just across the board.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I realize that um it kind of shapes and molds us into who we are.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I've realized over the last probably the last six years is we don't have to allow that to continue to be what shapes us.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: We can change our, we can change our pathway to go a different direction.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um we can still use that as a reminder and as a tool to to help us not want to go that way.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know sometimes, like um for myself, there's so many ways and directions I could have gone in my life, but I'm so thankful that I didn't.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also better directions that I could have gone in my life and I wish I had.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Does that kind of make sense?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's that difference between like decisions have consequences, good, bad, and different, right?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So decisions I make have consequences in my life.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, yeah, there's things I look back and go, ah, if only I had, right?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there's other decisions I'm like, woo, good dodge that bullet, like glad we didn't go that direction.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also just the reality of other people's consequences on us that we really had no, like no choice in in many ways.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And all of those things do shape us into the person we are, good, bad, and different.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you're right in the sense that those may have an impact, but they don't have to define us.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: They they don't define who we are, they don't define our future, they don't find, don't define our hope.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think in a lot of times that's the battle is you know, that like, you know, I this thing, this experience has absolutely shaped me in ways that I noticed and ways that I didn't notice.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then out of that, decisions were made, and there's this is just the messiness of living in a broken world, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And yet none of those define who I am, none of those define how I choose to take my next step, whatever that next step is.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but they are gonna have an impl influence at times, and and that's just again, you know, that's part of this journey that we call life, um, of especially trying to follow Jesus in the middle of it all.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I noticed that um when you talked a little bit um in the beginning, you started talking about how you felt um like you you you're never enough.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: One um common thing that I hear with this specific podcast, especially with Crushing Strongholds, um, I would say the number one thing that I hear the most is people say that they felt like they were never enough.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I could relate with that because I literally was told in my lifetime I would never measure up for many, many years.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so I used to always try to be, I used to try to be one up on everything, you know, because I always wanted to measure up.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And even at that, I yeah, I never still felt like I was measuring up.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, how much do I gotta do to measure up?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really a struggle, you know.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I think that for me in my childhood with that, the kind of stuff that was going on in my family, me meeting a standard of expectation uh behaviorally, you know, and all those educationally, all those things kept the temperature in that home down.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think I think it, I mean, again, this is years of therapy and lots of law, you know, like as I like to call it an expensive friend who I sit with and regularly dialogue.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and as we've unpacked things, it was um it was, you know, that pursuit of being more or being better or doing better um was a was a it was a way of protecting a protection mechanism.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: It protected me from a volatile stepdad and you know, the impact of that in my family.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's there, there's kind of like a a genesis of of where that came from.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then on top of that, I I'm prideful.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have my own pride, I have my own desires to be something and to do something and to be significant and make a difference and all those kinds of things.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's always this weird mix of there's good in that and a shadow side.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think earlier on, I was a lot more binary in the sense of like, like, I gotta get rid of those bad ideas and only hold on to the good ideas, which isn't possible.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can't, like, we can't unpack untether those from our from our um our our pure motive or our true motives, and so it really became more about how to confess, like, okay, Lord, like when I was teaching in the church, it was like, you know, there was a part of me, it's like, Lord, I want your word to impact people and I want to see people's lives change, and and I know it's not about me.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's another part of me that's going, and I really hope I get a lot of accolades and that you know, this clip goes viral or whatever, like those weird thoughts that are bouncing around.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And a friend of mine actually once and I were having a conversation, and he said, 'Yeah, he's like, 'I've learned that suppressing it doesn't work.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just started confessing it.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it was that idea of coming in and just going, 'God, both of these things are true.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to move in power.' And I really like attention, and you're gonna have to sort all of that out, and I'm just gonna do my best to be faithful.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just became it was the only way that I could do the mental gymnastics on it all.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it learned it, it helped free me up from some of that back and forth.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is great.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I love that analogy because you know, I think I always think to when I have conversations with God, I'm like, he probably just thinks I'm a train wreck.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is going on with this person's head, you know?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I know he already knows what's going on.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, it's funny how we try to advise God, we try to explain it to God, but he's an all-knowing God, and we're the ones that are not all-knowing, but we think we know enough to tell God what all about it, you know.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that he doesn't want to hear it, but I think it's funny that we just have to, you know, explain it all out, you know, and express ourselves, you know, and God's kind of like and we're almost convinced, we're trying to convince ourselves, I think, as much as like my one of my favorite passages of scripture is in the end of the book of John, you have that scene where you know Jesus has resurrected and the disciples are out fishing, and they see this guy on the shoreline, they realize Peter goes, It's it's the Lord, and John jumps, or I mean, sorry, John says it's the Lord, and Peter jumps out of the boat and swims to shore and finds Jesus and he's made a meal for him.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And after a little while, they go for a walk, Jesus and Peter, because you know, this is on the heels of Jesus' or Peter's denial of Jesus, where he denied him three times.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in that interaction, you know, Jesus says, You know, do you love me?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Peter says, I love you.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, Okay, feed my sheep.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then he says it again, then he says it again.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's three times obviously that parallel the three denials.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: But on the third time, it's truly interesting because you know, Jesus says, Do you love me more than these?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And Peter says, You know all things.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like at that moment, I really believe what Peter's doing is he's letting go of trying to convince Jesus how much he loves him.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you just realized, Look, you know all things, you know I love you, you know you know more of me than I know of me.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So why like I'm I'm done trying to sell myself to you.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for me, like those types of things, especially fighting some of that identity battle and those those the sense of succeeding in one area or failing in other areas or feeling like a failure or all of the stuff that goes on around that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you know, that that's why that passage is so powerful to me, is because it reminds me, like, I don't have to prove myself to God.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to um convince him or me for that matter that that I'm worthy of his love or that you know, any of those kinds of things.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can I can just say, look, like you know, like even when I journalize so much of my journaling is just you know, like you get it.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's I love that parallel because um and I I think you're you're spot on when he's he says that three times about hey, you you know, if you if you if you love me, then you know, feed my sheep three times because of the denial process.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny how we we deny Christ often, you know, and we don't realize that you know that we have denied him.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um I always think to myself, oh Lord, if I you know, I don't it's never been intentional for me.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I know there are times that I probably I know that I probably have.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um but as we're walking, you know, and and we're walking and we're searching, searching out who Jesus is, we're trying to well again level up, you know, or that one-up, like I was saying before, but um God doesn't have that expectation of us.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: He he doesn't at all.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: We do with ourselves and we do with others around us, but God never put that on us.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's a worldly um thing that the enemy puts on us.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we did that to ourselves, you know, and that's a stronghold where where we you know we put this requirement on us, and it's it wasn't even necessary.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, like we're trying to do, you know, so much in the world, you know.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And God, you know, God sometimes wants us just to be married, just sit at his feet, you know, and we have to remember that we have to have the balance of you know the going and the serving and the sitting and the intimate times with Jesus, because we forget that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's where people lose sight.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: They get so focused on the going and the going, and not that service is bad, it's not bad at all.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: But if if that's a priority over your relationship with Christ, then it is a problem.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: It is a problem.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: If it even if it is ministry or if it's you know, whatever it is that you're doing, if it's taking your eyes off from Jesus, then that can be, you know, that distraction is a problem because it interferes with your relationship.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I um the illustration I've used in the past is, you know, you like I remember when I was when our boys were younger, they would, you know, they'd be riding their bikes up front, and my son would be like, Hey, look what I can do.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: And like he'd stand on his frame of his bike and stick a foot out or whatever.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I would be like, Yeah, that's cool, man.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I that's great.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm ultimately I'm not really that impressed.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like I'm going, wow.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think God's like that with us oftentimes.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, great.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that that's awesome that you're doing that.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I I'm not impressed.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm that's not my heart for you, has nothing to do with whether or not you can do a one-footer on your bike.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like my desire is that, like you said, that you would be with me, that you would walk with me, that you would trust in me.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it it isn't about trying harder as much as it's about surrendering more.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what does it look like to live a life of surrender?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, that doesn't mean that there isn't effort, it doesn't mean that we don't have to persevere, it doesn't mean any of those things, but you know, uh, I'm a I'm uh a horrible golfer.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: I hate, I hate the sport with every fiber of my being.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is is because my anytime I get a good shot, my next compulsion is to try and swing harder.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it never goes right.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: The harder I try, the worse it goes.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, then I'm just chasing balls all over a course and saying words I'm not allowed to say in front of my friends, and it's just a bad day.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it is that like like I think our spiritual journey is so much like a golf swing in the sense that like it, it's it is more about the mechanics of what does it look like to walk with Jesus and to be present with him and and to believe fully and trust fully that what he says is true is true, and that I can rest in that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then out of that, what does he have for me today?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: What does faithfulness to today look like?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I how do I live in such a way that it honors him and impacts the world around me?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh a quick story, a a little uh side note for you.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: When um I used to be the manager of a golf course um called Southridge in California, and and the owner's son, um, he was a tyrant and he would get me into trouble all the time, but he was a lot of fun to hang out with.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we'd do go, you know, we'd do golf car races and we would, you know, we'd chase people on the on the on the grounds.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he we were in trouble.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So one time it was in the up in the mountains, and he took me up on this back hill, and I thought, oh, is this guy gonna murder me or what?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this young kid.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, where are we going?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he has this big bucket of balls, and he's like, So we were standing up on top of the hill above the golf course, and we were hitting the balls on the golf, on the golf course while they were golfing.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden you hear a couple of guys, you know, start swearing, you know, like, what the blankety blank blank.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, this is really not a good idea.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're making people mad, you know, and the balls are just coming from nowhere, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're looking around, like, what in the world's going on?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this is so bad.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that was my idea of golfing.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that's so good for me.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: I tried for a while.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: I had a friend actually who is the manager of a course uh near where I lived, and he's like, hey, I'll give you free range tickets, you can come try.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like a couple months, and I'm like, man, I this is just if this is supposed to be relaxing, this is the wrong sport for me.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't, this is not gonna be what works for me.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you should have just did the opposite, went up on the hill and just hit the bucket of balls off because I'm telling you, it was very therapeutic for me.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure, much more therapeutic.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I wasn't, I didn't have no goal in sight.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's so much easier when you don't have to focus on that little tiny spot in the ground.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just thought that was kind of an interesting um story because you were sharing that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like to golf much either.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Even miniature golf, I'm not very good at.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I go just for the fun of it and I try not to, you know, bring on the pressure.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Something I um was reading on your on your website that I wanted to touch base on um when you're talking about your book, and I want to quote it actually, um, because it's talking about the wilderness way, finding freedom and life's fractures, and it grew that it grew from the same soil.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But something that you wrote just after that says the book is for those who have been told that or told to just have faith when what they needed was permission to be honest.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love that because I was literally having a conversation with someone yesterday, and so this resonates really deeply with me.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And she said if nothing frustrates her more than somebody's that says, Well, you just don't have enough faith.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So can you touch base on that what what your um thought is?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really it really struck me.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, because I was talking about, you know, Peter, when Jesus says to Peter, he steps out on the boat and he starts or steps out on the water.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and Peter takes his eyes off Jesus and he starts to sink.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesus is like, Why are you sinking?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: You you have little faith, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, then there's also the the parable to that is like you only need the faith of the mustard seed, which is very minute and so tiny, you know, we barely have to have any.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's kind of like it it can be in so many different comparisons on so many different levels of how much or how little faith you need to have.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I loved what you said here that said um what they need was permission just to be honest.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, that is a great way to word that.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I never heard it worded like that before.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, that's really amazing because we shouldn't tell people, well, you don't have enough faith, you're lacking faith.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think that really does discourage people with their own walk with Jesus.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh man, again, it makes us feel like we don't measure up or we're not ever gonna be good enough because now I don't even have enough faith to, you know what I mean?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to do things.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: We become it what happens is uh it's so subtle too.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like the enemy is so subtle with these things because you know it it but it what it does is it turns the object of the faith to us.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um I had a pastor friend who said this and it always stuck with me.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, the goal, the the primary goal is not the amount of faith you have, it's what the object of your faith is.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what when Jesus is telling Peter you have little faith, I I don't think, and I I I'd have to check the Greek to see if I'm way off here, but I really don't think the heart of what he's saying is you don't have enough faith.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because what just happened, he took his eyes off of Jesus, right?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened was all the things around him, the storm specifically got bigger and Jesus got smaller in his field of vision.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I think that faith for us is a lot more about what the object of the faith is.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the quote you're mentioning from the book was this idea that um I truly believe that honesty is and vulnerabilities first to the Lord and then with people we trust is probably the best exercise of faith.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because it does it strips away that performative, like, no, I can I can do it, I can get it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's this weird um thing that happens in Christianity, I find, where we come to Jesus by grace through faith, right?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so we I can't save myself, I can't get to heaven.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: On my own, and so I give myself to Jesus.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then we live as though in order to sustain that or grow that, it's on us.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, not that there isn't responsibility.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's the beauty of this cooperative relationship where God gives us agency and he gives us a spirit, and he says, You, you, you know, you got to make good decisions.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, my faith um and my spiritual growth isn't just now, now it's not just me pull up my bootstraps and try and figure it out, but it is, you know, fixing my eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of my faith, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: It is um, you know, the abide in me in John, right?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like remain in me.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's like a good fruit comes off of a tree that's rooted in me.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we I think the compulsion in our mind is okay, I need to figure out how to stop thinking or doing these bad things and start thinking or doing these good things.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if I'm not doing enough of the good things or thinking enough of the good things, that means that my faith isn't strong enough.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes a law of diminishing returns rather than saying, okay, like, and I've had multiple seasons of these lives where or in my life where it's like I'm trying to be better, I'm trying to do better, I'm trying to stop doing this, or I'm trying to be a better husband or a better father or a better whatever.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And all I'm doing is tripping and falling on my face, and it's only getting worse.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, no, no, no.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, Lord, I I need like I need you in this.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to start with you.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned it earlier, Mary and Martha, right?
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to, I need a I need some merry time.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: I need to learn to rest in that and um and not feel like I'm like like God is God is not the Russian judge in the Olympics holding up a number card saying, oh, you get a 4.5 today, you know, maybe tomorrow's gonna be a seven.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not how his disposition towards us.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: But so much of my, as much as I know that intellectually, spent a lot of money going to Bible colleges and seminaries to learn the Bible doesn't teach us that, it still can become the default posture of my heart, subtly in a way that I'm I still start to wrestle with and believe, yeah, but I gotta figure out or I gotta fix this or I gotta whatever it would be.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um it ends up entangling me as much as it does setting me free.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I realize with my walk with the Lord that um for many years I used to seek validation from other people, like immensely.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I wanted to be a people pleaser.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to, um, like I said, I wanted to get that merit, you know, that merit badge that, you know, I was often told I would never ever get.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm like, I'm gonna work harder, I'm gonna be better, I'm gonna do this for you, and you'll see, you'll see, you know.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember somebody, uh, one of my friends said, Why do you seek out validation so much?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, I didn't even realize I was doing that.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I'm glad they were really honest with me and telling me that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, you know what?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: That is insane because I was validated the day Jesus went to the cross.
• 25:03
  unknown: Yep.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to really sit down and and meditate with the Lord on that because I was like really, really seeking out, you know, what other people thought of me or what you know what I could do to impress somebody.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or again, like you said, you know, like we like that attention.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: We want, we and we all need to, you know, feel needed and loved and wanted and accepted.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a natural thing.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's to the point where I'm like, I'm gonna go above and beyond to get this validation.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like when you go to the parking garage, you're like, I'm gonna take this ticket and it's gonna get stamped and I don't have to pay my, you know what I mean?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I'm gonna get validated.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and I I didn't realize that, you know, it it was um so evident that like a friend of mine literally he said, You really, really have a problem with seeking validation.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, thank you for telling me, because I didn't even realize it was evident, you know, I was showing it, you know, and I was like, wow.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And but when I sat at Jesus' feet, Jesus simply just said, I've you know, I validated you when I went to the cross.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need anymore.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: I never needed it after that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have never ever sought to be validated again.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it it was just a it was a peaceful, like you said, a surrendering all.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was so peaceful um for me that um just because he just literally just was like, you don't need it, like you haven't already done it, you know.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's like it's finished, it's written, it's enough, you know.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: But we always think it's not enough.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Some re for some reason it's not enough, it's not enough.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: We have to do more to impress or more to whatever.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it God is so simple and we are so complex.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're the complex ones.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: God's not, and we always say, Oh, God's so difficult.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, he's not, he's so simple.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: If we just look at it, you know, from a reverse analogy, you know, it's like it's so easy to read, and we're the ones that that mess it up and make it complicated, you know.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, it's really simple.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: That goes back to the faith conversation, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like having the faith of a mustard seed is literally just taking him at his word.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So when he says he's a when he says, Look, you're enough, like or I'm enough, you don't, you don't, I have no expectations on you to be more than what I've created you to be.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: It that that's again back to like you know, like there's a guy in Mark who comes to Jesus and says, you know, if um if you could, would you heal my I think servant?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember if it's servant or son, maybe it's son.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus basically calls around and goes, if and the man says, I believe, but help my unbelief, right?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: That is like such a beautiful picture of everything we're talking about.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it isn't that I don't know it intellectually, it isn't that I don't want to believe it.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a matter of will I take Jesus as his word moment by moment, day by day, and and and say, Okay, like I'm gonna trust that even though there's something in me that is craving more validation, um, I don't need that.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it's not it, I don't have to have that in order to be whole and to be at peace.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know that um my daughter and I we own a bookstore and an art gallery.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And when we first opened it, um um I teach I teach art classes every every weekend, you know.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um since I started podcasting, um, it's really kind of helped me to relax as an instructor because I love painting.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just really wasn't sure that of the instructing part.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I just kind of like want them, you know, here's how to do it, just do it.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to really have to teach it.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of wanted them just to figure it out.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Some people kind of just really need to be taught, I learned that it is a teaching process.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And my daughter was telling me, she's like, Mom, you've developed from from the first time you did a teaching class to now.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, You you you have developed in such a way that it you know it's so enjoyable.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I love watching you teach your class now.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, In the beginning, I was a little worried.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, I'm not gonna lie, I'm so worried.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, What?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, she's like, I think that podcast is really helping you, you know, um communicate better and understand how you know how to speak to people instead of just like here, put the paint there and just do it, you know?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and teaching and we become more comfortable in our own skin and you know, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the word of God, what I what I where I was going with that was is I believe that the word of God, we already have that tool, but sometimes we comp you know we complicate it because we we try to dissect it to to where we can't figure it out.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard so many people say, Oh, I can't read the Bible, it's too difficult.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Are you kidding me?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and and I I don't I don't say that out loud because I don't want them to be like, wow, rude.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I you know, I just I'm just like I I when I read the word, and there are parts that I don't understand, you know, because I'm not a theologian.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I I you know I have an associates and a bachelor's degree in ministry and and whatnot, but I like I know every single day up until the day I die, I'm gonna learn something new about the word of God.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, God's gonna teach me something great and wonderful if that makes any sense.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think it's difficult.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think we make it difficult.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we try to make it clear.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, we overreach, right?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we feel like we have to figure out every nuance and answer every, you know, cross every T and dot every I, and that's and that's not necessarily the the right angle to come at it with.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So now you wrote The Wilderness Way, and you also um have a song called Light and Love, which was amazing.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I listened to it this morning, so I'm encouraging all of my listeners to go to YouTube and look up Light and Love um and listen to it.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um actually I'll put it in the show notes.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: There you can actually link it there.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um great, great, great song, by the way.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was wonderful.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um is is The Wilderness Way the only book that you've written?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was gonna ask.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh there I wrote The Wilderness Way, that was my first real book.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I wrote a companion workbook that is alongside it too, that's available.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's for like small groups or personal study.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's it's basically six sessions.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: Each session covers two chapters of the book.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it just allows you again, like I I've always been passionate about uh getting past knowledge into integration.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So not just how do we learn these things, but how do these things actually shape us and and how do we wrestle through them?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I did the workbook in addition to it.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so both of those are available.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I have ideas for a second book.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't I've started light research, but I haven't dove into it yet.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've been focused on on this book and this project and this conversation and why I think it's an important conversation for people to be able to have.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it yeah, it's it sounds like a really good book.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't read it yet.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am very interested.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was reading about it, and um, it it looks like a really great read.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it just even right off the bat, just some of the stuff that you said, um, the verbiage um just in describing the book is really great.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you also have a podcast.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so um on your podcast, um, is it a solo podcast?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you have guests?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, tell us a little bit about your podcast.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's solo right now.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um be uh right now I've been what it's been is just kind of uh a re revamping and kind of resharing some of the messages that I've taught over the years at the different churches I've been on leadership, um, and around this theme of wilderness and wrestling with like the basic basic uh thesis of the book is the idea that um if in the Exodus narrative you see um God rescues Israel from slavery in Egypt and he promises them a promised land, but then they spend 40 years in the wilderness.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the parallel I drew to my own journey was I've been rescued from slavery in Jesus when I came to faith, and one day I will have be in the promised land, one day there will be no more sorrow and no more tears, and he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and God's home will be among his people.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: But this life, in many ways, is the wilderness.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I used to think of it as uh I went through a season of wilderness, and what I've realized is that in many ways this life is a wilderness because it's always going to be a mix of both beauty and brokenness.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there's always gonna be a complexity to it, like we've talked about.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can have beautiful things happening and hard things happening to you and to those around you.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: And rather than trying to figure out how to get out of the hard things, it's become for me more about how do I see God's presence walking with me in the midst of it?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Where's the pillars of cloud or the pillars of fire and the cloud?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, where's the manna that he's providing?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for me, coming out of a really hard burnout transition in ministry and a sense of failure and loss of sense of worth and identity, that was where God really met me and said, Hey, maybe the issue isn't so much the circumstances you're in, but the expectations you had of what what it was gonna look like, that somehow you believe that if you just did everything that I told you to, that everything was gonna be rainbows and butterflies.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it just isn't.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not how life works.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where it's that that permission to be honest is it like the Bible teaches us about lament over and over and over again, and yet it's not something we as humans and especially as Christians do very well.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: There is this compulsion to be like, yeah, but then it'll and we can get to the other side.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so we almost bypass lament for the promises.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, promises are good, but the lamenting is actually a big part of our journey of learning to say, like, God, this is really hard, and I don't know how to fix it, and I don't know what you're doing.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and but but I know you're here, and and I have these other people here with me, and there's a measure of comfort and peace that can come just from that.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's you know where that scripture comes in it says, do not lean on your own understanding.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it kind of sums that up, you know, and we do we want to lean on, you know, we're like, Oh, we got I got this, God.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: I figured it out and I learned it.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now I I I you know I can I can do it, you know.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I know God wants to see us do it, just like you want to watch your son do tricks on his bike and he's got it, and yay, yay, you know, great, but um, you know, but God just doesn't want to want us to take off and do it alone, you know.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that you were talking about real quick was um when you're talking about burnout, church burnout.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, on the side of being a pastor, um on the opposite side of that, I've I've talked to so many Christians that have dealt with church hurt.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I I don't know if that with a being a pastor and having burnout, um, if that can correlate or not, but I'm wondering, um, how do how do how would you explain to someone who has dealt with a lot of church church and they just they just don't want to go back anymore.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: They just like, yeah, I'll listen to my worship music and I'll read the word, but I'm not going to church anymore.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't trust any of you guys.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm done.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um the first thing I would say is, I you're not wrong.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and on my side, there was a fair amount of church hurt in some a couple of the last ministry experiences I was was in where um where I got beat up pretty good, even at a leadership level, even not as a senior leader, and then going back and being a senior leader and just the messiness of the church in that in that sense.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so the first thing I would tell people is a hundred percent your hurt and your pain is valid, and um that doesn't mean you should just go jump into another church and good luck.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a like I wouldn't just you know, again, that'd be like bypassing it, like, oh, you'll be fine, just go find a new church.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, um the church is the bride of Christ and God's given us one another.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that the the best thing that people can do is begin to pray and explore opportunities and start looking for churches that could align with what they value.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think one of the greatest tells is can you sit down with someone from leadership and share your story?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: If if you get into a church and you can't find a way to sit down and say, hey, I've had some hurt in the past, here's what I've walked through.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if that's met with dismissiveness or, you know, again, you have to trust the spirit in that stuff.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then yeah, pull the ripcord, get out of there as quickly as you can.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because unfortunately, that is a reality.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that there is church can be as as as messy of a place as anywhere else, and in many ways more messy, unfortunately.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I still believe, you know, I've been a vocational ministry for 25 years.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was, you know, part of a church before that, you know, as a young person, you know, I we we really never took time off from church after my burnout and frustrations.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the way we approached it was very different.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um I I believe that the church is an essential part of growth and healing, even, but it's gonna have to be the right environment um and the right, the right opportunity.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that is, it's a little like dating, right?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like kind of it's like, okay, we we broke up and my heart's broken.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And at some point it's like, yes, but that doesn't mean that all men or all women are horrible, right?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: And any genuine relationship is gonna require risk.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you can't get the payoff of a genuine relationship with others without risk.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's not the season for some people, it's like, no, I'm not ready to risk.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I would totally validate that experience.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I would say, like, if you have one or two people who are also Jesus followers who you love and you trust, make it a habit of connecting with them regularly uh and just being the church together, so at least you have that because nothing's more dangerous than isolation.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've talked so much about how our own how how our own hearts are so self-deceed deceiving.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're walking through a season of suffering and struggle through wounds like that, uh just don't do it alone.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Find one or two people, ideally the person that will talk straight with you, like you talked about with your friend.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had people in my life who are able to go, ah, I think you're off base here.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you want those people in your life because they're gonna be the ones who can help you to heal in those circumstances.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you know, when people see you from the outside where you don't see yourself from the outside, um, they're looking at you from a different lens, you know, and they can see different perspectives.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one thing I wanted to mention of I with Church Hurt also is um I want your take on this.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I feel like people go to a church with such high expectations that they're automatically going to be let down.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like they walk in and they expect the pastor to be, they they expect the pastor to say this, to walk like this, to talk like this, to be married to the, you know, to have this type of family, to have and it's like, my goodness, you know, like leave the expectations at the door and go in and let Holy Spirit work in your life and and and stop bringing all that to the table because you're just sitting there and what I find I've seen I've seen it with my own eyes, and it's so discouraging to watch people just watch people.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like they just watch they're watching the room, like and then and I always wonder, are they thinking a good thought or a bad thought?
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are they is it a judgmental thought, or is it like, oh, that person looks so lovely today instead of ooh, that person, you know, or whatever.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's so crazy how you know I I think about that, and I'm like, oh my goodness, you have to sometimes, you know, I tell I tell people like um being a foster mom for for seven years, I tell my kids, sometimes you have to leave your baggage at the door and just take a chance on on trying something new.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're you we all have a lot of baggage to care.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: We all have a lot of hurt, pain, anger, frustration.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes you just got to set that down and and come on in and just sit down at the table and let's have dinner and and talk about a good day, you know.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that we do that with the churches.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you do you see that as well?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh a lot.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um and here's what I'll say to anyone listening.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whatever church you walk into, the guy standing up in front, he's as much of an idiot as you are.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I promise you.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: He is or she is.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: They we are all a big ball of mess.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and you cannot engage a real relationship in a community or with people without the reality that at some point you're gonna find yourself disappointed or hurt.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just there, it's um, it's inescapable uh in many ways.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and so I and I get it, like people come in and and you know, uh like I like to say that in some ways that we've built like the Western church has built the monster that it that's consuming it because we have built this consumer-oriented um machine that feels very corporate to a degree and very very performative at times, again, not all churches, but just there's there's a kind of the Western church is very different like than the early church, right?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm not saying all the modeling is bad, I'm just saying that what it there's an unintended consequence of that is that there feels like you know, when you have a stage, there just naturally feels like there's a distance from the stage to the third row.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that person is on a pedestal physically.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's not hard to imagine that that would then create a sense of like, well, that person has it way more together than I do.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you would hope they would.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the Bible gives us, you know, uh uh standards for leadership, and you would hope that they have a, you know, that they're not totally off the rails, but at the same time, that there can't be an expectation that somehow they're this perfectly curated, they've figured it out, like they've got the secret sauce of what it means to follow Jesus.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that they're maybe they're they're living more surrendered, like again, back to the trying harder versus surrendering more.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they're walking in transparency and authenticity and vulnerability with people in their lives.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that to me, I I find are the healthier of the of the church environments.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, vulnerability is a res is a result of safety.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's it's a byproduct of safety.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want vulnerability, you gotta have safety.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so if a church wants people to really be able to live authentically and vulnerably, you have to create an environment of safety.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes from the top down.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: So leaders who are honest and in, you know, again, not that they get up and air all their dirty laundry on Sundays, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: But they but you know, like they got people that walk with them and they're being they're being challenged and counseled and and they wrestle with things.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And uh there's a chapter in my book that I talk about.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: My neighbors have a um here in Texas, we have cottonwood trees.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you have those in Boise.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, okay.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: So cottonwood trees.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: We have cotton trees, yes, we do.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so cottonwood trees are the worst thing on the planet.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they are proof of the fall to me.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: They smell bad.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so they smell bad, and they um, and this is by the way, total first world problem complaining that I'm doing right here.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the springtime, it's like Like little cotton balls come off of them and they flood my yard and clog our air conditioning and clog our pool drain and all these things.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I talk about it in the book, how I despise this tree.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love my neighbors, I despise their tree to the point where there was a point where I actually Google searched how to kill it.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was like, If I can kill this tree, how can I do it?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't go through with it.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the illustration is the idea that look, uh, other people's mess is always gonna find its way into our yard.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in the church, other people's mess, that that leader's mess is gonna find its way into your yard in the same way that your mess is gonna find its way into other people's yard.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so grace and forgiveness and patience, right?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: The all the fruit of the spirit, all those things are stuff that we have to cultivate in order to be the person that we want others to be for us.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like we we want to, I want to become the person with enough grace and empathy and patience to love and serve the person that I want them to have that for me.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's unfair for me to expect them to have their stuff together and to be there for me if I'm not willing to do the same for them.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so that just like lowering the bar to be like, look, we're all knuckleheads.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, when when you step on my toe, I'm gonna say ow, and then we're gonna talk about it and we're gonna hopefully hug it out, and then we'll move on to the next thing, and I'll step on your toe.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: One th one thing that I struggled with is um I I like small churches because I feel like um the community is is is there.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, you walk in and people know your name, they and they know you are opposed to the mega church, and you go for six months and you see almost a new face at the door every day, and nobody knows your name.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um true story, um, seriously, I was going to this church for quite a while, me and my grandmother, and I absolutely love the pastor.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's amazing.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: I still do, I still follow him.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: And he moved, um, he moved and bought a bigger church, and now he's gonna buy now he's like really onto the mega, mega, mega church, right?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's crazy because I sat behind him, I had moved away and came back seven years later, and I reintroduced myself to him again.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, hey, I'm so-and-so.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I used to go to the little church, you know, the little the little guy down the road, you know, and he's like, Oh, okay, yeah, kinda, I kinda remember you.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I sat behind him for six months and it you know, his preaching is phenomenal.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I you I I don't know, I just I love to hear him preach.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it's funny because I was sat behind him for six months and he still didn't know he would introduce himself to me every single Sunday because there's so many people in the church, he doesn't know anybody.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like there's a disconnection with mega churches, even though they do hubs and subhubs and home groups, and you know, and you have to go into the foyer and sign up for whatever it is you're looking for in a church to go to someone's, you know, group to have a conversation because there's so many people, I feel like it's almost disconnecting instead of connecting.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really hard.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, having been on staff at a at a really large church, grew up at one that was really big and it never felt big to me because I was integrated in, um, you know, and that's where I came to faith.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was a large church, you know, multiple multiple thousands of people.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then going to a medium-sized church on staff, where you know, it started at about 250 when I got there, and then by the time I left seven years later, it was over 800 people.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it got more and more difficult to keep people connected and to know people, and because no one like no one leader can be all of that to everybody.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, he can't, you know, we call him a pastor or our pastor, but it's impossible for him to do what that that word in the Bible is actually a verb, it's it's only a noun once, it's a verb.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: Pastoring is is shepherding is a verb, and so he can only do that for so many people.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like Jesus only had 12.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and so he he, you know, he had a lot of disciples, but it was 12 core guys, and even within that was a circle of four that were like, okay, these are the guys, these are my rider dies that I'm really kind of invested into.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so and then you know, I went from that to a um to a church plant where it was like really small, and I could be that genuinely speaking for most people.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it is this, it is a weird thing.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I I'm not an anti-mega church guy, um, because I think there's things that you can do in large churches resource and leverage wise for a community and for people, especially people who are disconnected from church, it's a lot easier to slide in the back door of a bigger church and just kind of get the feel of things and not, you know, especially if you're coming out of hurt or you're you don't know anything.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can kind of you can you can play in the sandbox without having to commit yourself to it, at least for a while.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas, like when we were doing, when we first started our church plan, I was a house church and I had neighbors who were like, I'm not coming to your living room.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're weird or not.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like right.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like you could be kissing rattlesnakes for all I know.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know what's going on, and I can't escape because it's your living room.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there is, it's like there's always gonna be this kind of tug and pull of how do you how do you take a small community and make sure that it isn't just us foreign no more and that it really does have not only its own heart for community, but its heart to reach its community and can and do so.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then for big churches, it's always gonna be how do you create genuine relationships in a way that that they can develop and people can love and serve and really be known and know one another and have access to leaders who can shepherd and care for them as well.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: I love I love the the backdoor um example because there are times when you're just you know, you're that newbie and you're like, oh, you know, I don't know what to do here, you know, and you feel a little awkward and it's always uncomfortable the first time you step into a new church and what have you.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: But when I moved back to California, I had um um joined a really small church.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, our we we we we grew.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um we went from a warehouse to an actual church building, you know, we we grew, but um everybody knew everybody and we we all knew what every and we all helped everybody helped everyone, you know, and it was really great.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people you know, people could just stop by my house from church and it wouldn't be a problem, you know.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, um, you know, stop by or if they needed something they could ask.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like my wash machine went out and I had foster kids, and one of the ladies from the church said, I'm coming to get your laundry.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: I said, No, you're not.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, I'll be there in 20 minutes.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, That's so you don't want to do our dirty laundry.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: She goes, Yes, I do.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and yeah, and that's what you want, right?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what you want.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and I don't think I'll I'll be honest, I don't think that's impossible in a larger church, but I do admit it's a lot more difficult to foster.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so when I came back here and I I went to the the church that I used to go to and it had, you know, gotten so big, I would I I literally was there for six months and I didn't make one connection.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, I talk to people, I'm a sociable person, and I would say hi, you know, good morning, talk to people, but I never really made any connections with anyone.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of it kind of it kind of tugged on me a little bit.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: I still love the church.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I go to the church still.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love the pastor, I love his wife, I love the youth ministry.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot to it.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's just putting your best foot forward and you really have to make yourself engage in it to get something out of it.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Where at the at the smaller church, that you're automatically engaged because you, you know, everybody's just engaged.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: You uh a larger church, you have to be a lot more proactive to find your way into the communities.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, we've been at the church that we're a part of, is a bigger church um now, my family and I, and um and I know some of the leaders, like I've become good friends with some of the leaders, but it has been a journey of like, how do we find our people in this ecosystem?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like because you know, you're you're looking for those relationships that you can really connect with.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_01: People it not even about like that you both like golf or whatever it would be, but just because that's not gonna happen.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, but you're looking for those people, it's like, wow, these are people that for whatever reason I connect with.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the Lord does lead us in that, but there's a patience to it and a trial and error.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like we went to one small group and it's like, hey, these are great people, but they're probably not our people long term.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you you're just it it it takes more time, and there there is a level of patience and trust in the Lord to go, okay, God, like you know what I what my heart wants, you know what I'm looking for.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm praying you would provide it for me.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, my dogs are barking in the background.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm surprised mine haven't barked yet either.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's really awesome.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, on that note, um, actually, um, do you want to um tell our listeners like how they can reach you and um, you know, like talk about your coaching program, kind of like what you offer, and um kind of we'll kind of wrap up a little bit with some of that information.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the book is available on Amazon.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's called The Wilderness Way.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh the workbook's there as well.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's there's uh ebook and then regular book.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the easiest place to find me is my website, Dustin Kleinschmidt.com.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, good luck spelling the last name.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or saying it.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you Google it and get in the ballpark, Google will find me.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um you just kind of have to Google it.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh that uh wildernessway book.com will take you to uh the page with the book stuff.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but all of that stuff is there.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: The the book, the coaching, the music, the music's available.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: The single, Light and Love that you mentioned, is available on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple Music.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's out there as a single.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, hopefully, a full album will be done in the next month or so.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: I got one song that this just won't let itself be finished, and so we're trying to finish that up and then get the full album out.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the coaching practice is something newer that I've started doing, and it's really just wanting to become a listening ear and a voice for leaders.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it doesn't have to be senior leaders, it could be any leader.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but oftentimes in church ministry, especially, it's really hard to be totally honest about what you're wrestling with, with the people you're wrestling with it with.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh having an outside perspective that can push you back towards your community, but then also be a place to process.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so um the way I've structured it is it works in 90-day cycles.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, hey, let's do 90 days um and let's let's figure out what your goals are.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: I work around four key things: spiritual health and growth, emotional health and growth, relational health and growth, and organizational health and growth, because I think all of those intertwine together.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we do a report every 90 days of like, hey, where are you at?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: What are what are the steps you've taken, and you know, how do we what what's the next mountain we want to try and climb?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so yeah, that's available on the site and it gives you all the information.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: I do a free 30-minute kind of get to know you and hear your story if if people are interested, so I can kind of see if they think it's a fit, and we you know we kind of uh go from there.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: I will be putting all of that information in the show notes so um it'll be easy for them to find you instead of having to try to Google thank you.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Much, much better.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's so you know, to your website and stuff.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I really do encourage all of our listeners to listen to that song, and I can't wait for that album to come out.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um that song was wonderful.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank you.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I would have heard it, you know, a long time ago because I know that's definitely one that'll be added to my playlist, I know for sure.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, thank you.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: If I listen to it often, and I know I'm I will share often as well, um as well as this episode.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, but um with that um being said, um, I've really enjoyed our conversation with you today.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really wonderful.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed every bit of it.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Me too, Nikki.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I I hope that our listeners um I know our our listeners, you know, got gained a lot, you know, from from our conversation and what have you, but to our listeners as well.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um Crushing Strongholds, we also have um you know the clarity call and we also have the prayer.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're seeking out um or need prayer for anything, you can go to CrushStrongholds.com and um just ask for prayer and I'll pray for I'll pray with you or pray for you.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um anytime, you know, at at all.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I always offer prayer out.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um again, um, I think the coaching program that you offer would be wonderful.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you you you have great conversation.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've been in the ministry for a long time, long enough.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you have seen enough to really get yourself experienced, you know.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: We could do a long form podcast.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: I got a lot of stories.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I I I bet.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, I can only imagine.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, just just you know, even with some of the stories that I've seen in my in my own churches, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I bet he has a lot to share, which is really exciting.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, look at look up um the wilderness way to find the book.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, I'll put the link in the show notes so you all can go in and um check out the website, see everything um that Dustin has to offer.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a lot in there.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's great, it's wonderful.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: That song, just just when you go into the website, just click on the song and then browse the website.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I encourage you to do.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously, like a good idea.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it was that's what I did.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that you had a song and I was like, huh, that's interesting.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: I clicked it and I was like, wow, this is great.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, I couldn't even browse through the website because I really want I really enjoyed the song so much, I really just want to sit and listen to it.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: So either way, you could do it however you want to do it, whatever suits you.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, what a wonderful um conversation that I've had today.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I've really enjoyed having you.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: I thank you so much for your time and um dedication to coming on here with Crushing Strongholds.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing your testimony um and kind of what you went through um growing up.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's that helps a lot of people to realize that they're not alone with their own, you know, strongholds.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think at our age, um even for me, I know that um sometimes people have said, aren't you past all that yet?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Aren't you past all that yet?
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and most for the most part I am, but it's still a part of who I am.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so so when I talk about it, it's not to type not to like rehash it or bring it up or or tear off the scab and reopen a wound.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's so that other people can realize that they're not alone in in some of the stuff that I've encountered in my life.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and look at what God has done in my life since then.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: He look how far he's brought me, look what he's done.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I give all that glory to God.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even take credit for that because if if I was trying to give myself credit, I'd be still sitting in the pit that I was in for three years before I had to, you know, seek out Jesus again, you know.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: The scars tell a story.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't cover your scars.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, but anyhow, um, it's been an honor and a pleasure having you today.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so for all of our listeners, um, we hope that you have a great day.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Reach out to Dustin or myself um um for any of the needs that you have.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, hopefully um we could fulfill those for you and um um help you with your um wandering or in the wilderness or uh crushing some strongholds, whatever it may be.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's you know, yeah, all of the above, there's a there's a lot to offer there.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really thankful for that.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyhow, um in closing, I just want to say have a great day and y'all be blessed.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And again, Dustin, thank you so much.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a great honor.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.