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Luke’s Diner: Why the Best Therapy is in the Kitchen · I Am All In with Scott Patterson

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  Speaker 1: I Am all in again.
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  Speaker 2: Luke's Diner with Scott Patterson, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Hey everybody, Scott Patterson, I Am all in Podcasts, one
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  Speaker 3: of the productions iHeartRadio Media. iHeart Podcasts. We have a
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  Speaker 3: Luke's Diner episode here. We have a very special guest
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  Speaker 3: name Deborah Borden. Let me tell you a little bit
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  Speaker 3: about Debra. She's a licensed clinical social worker, cooking teacher,
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  Speaker 3: and author of the book Cooking as Therapy. Known as
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  Speaker 3: the sooth Therapist, Deborah blends psychology and cooking to help
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  Speaker 3: people build stronger relationships, reduce stress.
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  Speaker 1: And improve emotional wellbeing through everyday kitchen activities.
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  Speaker 3: Through writing and teaching, she encouraged individuals, couples, and families
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  Speaker 3: to use cooking as a simple way to unplug and
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  Speaker 3: communicate better and create meaningful moments together. I could not
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  Speaker 3: agree more. This is the perfect opportunity in every one
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  Speaker 3: of your days at home to cook and to bond
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  Speaker 3: and to communicate with your family. It's and friends. It's
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  Speaker 3: just the best opportunity.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Debra.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we're thrilled to have you, all right, let's start
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  Speaker 1: at the beginning.
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  Speaker 3: You're both a licensed clinical social worker and a cooking teacher.
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  Speaker 3: When did you realize those two worlds could actually work together?
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  Speaker 2: So it's actually I'm not exactly a cooking teacher. I'm
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  Speaker 2: a home cook. And while working with families for the
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  Speaker 2: State of New Jersey for a great program that brought
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  Speaker 2: therapy to families who could only access it if it
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  Speaker 2: came to them, I was working with adolescents who'd been
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  Speaker 2: in school all day, families who'd worked all day. And
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  Speaker 2: I had to get creative because the state had authorized
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  Speaker 2: like two hours, and I wouldn't do two hours of
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  Speaker 2: therapy with the most insightful adult on the planet. So
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  Speaker 2: I got very into play therapy and other games. And
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  Speaker 2: then suddenly it occurred to me how much cooking for
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  Speaker 2: me could be almost like excavating, you know, emotional and
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  Speaker 2: in a good way or a bad way. And I
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  Speaker 2: started doing it with them and it changed everything. They
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  Speaker 2: went from sort of grunting and not being resistant. I
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  Speaker 2: hate that word resistant, just they weren't skilled at sort
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  Speaker 2: of insight and self reflection. But with cooking and the
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  Speaker 2: food and the metaphors that came out, it was just
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  Speaker 2: a remarkable changing experience, and we could actually work on
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  Speaker 2: stuff where before it was just kind of an intrusion, truly.
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  Speaker 3: Right right, right, Well, you talk about the kitchen being
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  Speaker 3: a place for small winds, as you put it, why
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  Speaker 3: are those small successes so important for somebody's confidence and
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  Speaker 3: mental health.
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  Speaker 2: Well, that's a great question. If I could script a
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  Speaker 2: success into every client's day who was feeling a little
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  Speaker 2: under it or frustrated or you know, perceived failures, that's
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  Speaker 2: therapy gold. You know, a success. And when you do
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  Speaker 2: a cooking therapy session, I don't care if you're making
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  Speaker 2: just like yogurt and fruit in the morning, or a
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  Speaker 2: salad and sandwich at lunch, or you know, the cover
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  Speaker 2: of bon appetite at a dinner time. You've shown up.
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  Speaker 2: You've done the three clinical components of cooking therapy, because
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  Speaker 2: it really is a legitimate clinical modality that's super impactful.
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  Speaker 2: So you've shown up, You've done mindfulness, which is a
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  Speaker 2: little different in cooking than a lot of people think
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  Speaker 2: about breathing and meditating. It's more about noticing, you know,
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  Speaker 2: not just racing through, Like what are the smells, what
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  Speaker 2: are the sounds, what are the looks of something that
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  Speaker 2: changes from you know, one way to another, whether you're
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  Speaker 2: sizzling in a pan or just pouring dressing on that
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  Speaker 2: changes things, or baking. And then you move into the metaphors.
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  Speaker 2: The metaphors are so incredible. People love them.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 2: It's anything from sifting through or bringing to a simmer
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  Speaker 2: not a boil, or sometimes for like a patient's intervention,
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  Speaker 2: we would do a pudding where you have to stir
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  Speaker 2: and wait for things to thicken, and the metaphors are
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  Speaker 2: just incredible, and then finally there you are. You know,
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  Speaker 2: it does double duty. You can do it at your
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  Speaker 2: own schedule. You can do it right in your oad kitchen.
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  Speaker 2: And then in addition to maybe a little insightful moment,
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  Speaker 2: you also have dinner. So it's a great win, small win,
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  Speaker 2: great win.
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  Speaker 3: So a lot of people see cooking is as stressful
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  Speaker 3: or time consuming?
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  Speaker 1: Can it? I cook a lot for my family and
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  Speaker 1: I love it. I love I'm.
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  Speaker 3: Home, it's five o'clock, I start prepping the meal.
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  Speaker 1: I just really enjoyed. It relaxes me.
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  Speaker 3: I you know, my son helps me cook sometimes when
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  Speaker 3: he's not doing his homework.
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  Speaker 1: Or isn't it his robotics or karate? Or whatever.
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  Speaker 3: You know, he's exactly But if he's with me, he
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  Speaker 3: helps me out.
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  Speaker 1: I teach him little things. And I'm no master chef,
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  Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, but.
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  Speaker 3: He enjoys it and it's and it's really fond memories
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  Speaker 3: with him preparing the food.
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  Speaker 1: But a lot of people don't see it that way.
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  Speaker 3: So in your mind, how can it actually help reduce
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  Speaker 3: stress and increase self esteem?
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  Speaker 2: So well, first of all, I have a great recipe
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  Speaker 2: for you and your son called tune in and talk
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  Speaker 2: to me tacos. It's a great family recipe. I'll send
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  Speaker 2: it to you after and it's in the book. But
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  Speaker 2: I get that every time I speak, I speak to
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  Speaker 2: a lot of groups, there's always someone who raises their
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  Speaker 2: hand and says, I hate a cook. This could never
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  Speaker 2: be for me. And what I say to them is
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  Speaker 2: two things. First of all, think about something like art therapy,
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  Speaker 2: Like you don't have to be Picasso to learn how
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  Speaker 2: to draw your frustration, draw your pain, draw your anger,
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  Speaker 2: draw your joy. Even same thing with other experiential therapies
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  Speaker 2: like equine therapy. I'm not an equestrian, but I've done
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  Speaker 2: equine therapy twice and it's amazing. And the thing with
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  Speaker 2: cooking therapy is you really do. I don't have to
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  Speaker 2: like to cook, but everybody has to peel back a yogurt,
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  Speaker 2: or peel the dark side off a cucumber and see
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  Speaker 2: the freshness and lightness inside, or open a cantlope and
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  Speaker 2: see those seeds of change, or make layers of a sandwich.
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  Speaker 2: I have a lady who wrote to me. She sent
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  Speaker 2: me an email she said, thanks a lot, Debbie. Now
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  Speaker 2: I can't even make a sandwich without thinking of the
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  Speaker 2: layers of my personality. So it's really In fact, I
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  Speaker 2: did a cooking therapy session for Mount sign Night Hospital
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  Speaker 2: in New York with a baked potato one big potato.
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  Speaker 2: So it's less about loving cooking and more about sort
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  Speaker 2: of inside out when you're there. Why not turn it
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  Speaker 2: into something that could help you examine a behavior that's
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  Speaker 2: working or not working, a communication strategy that is and
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  Speaker 2: all you'd like it to be. It's just there for
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  Speaker 2: you more than anything.
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  Speaker 3: So Well, on the show on Gilmore, Emily and Laura
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  Speaker 3: I have some pretty tense mother daughter confrontations throughout the series.
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  Speaker 3: How would you approach those two.
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  Speaker 1: For a cooking or a therapy session?
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  Speaker 2: Well, you know they are. They're like the sort of
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  Speaker 2: poster child I think, you know, for mother daughter everything,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and they're very good at bonding, so I
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  Speaker 2: actually think for them. And the way you do it
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  Speaker 2: is you sort of start out and you say, well,
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  Speaker 2: what do we want to work on today? And I
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  Speaker 2: always ask and you know, you learn this in the
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  Speaker 2: book How to Do It? What are you bringing to
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  Speaker 2: the table today? Because almost any problem out there if
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  Speaker 2: you start with what's your goal? You know, what do
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  Speaker 2: you want to get out of this? I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: have a confrontation or I'm going to go send an
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  Speaker 2: email what is my goal? And sometimes it's not worth
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  Speaker 2: doing at all. But for the two of them, you know,
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  Speaker 2: you say, okay, what am I bringing to the table today? Well,
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  Speaker 2: Mom saying you know, I just feel like I'm losing
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  Speaker 2: you a little, or it's not the same, daughters saying
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  Speaker 2: you know, I know you love me, but I need
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  Speaker 2: to you know, experience whatever. And then you pick a
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  Speaker 2: recipe that would target what both are feeling. And it's
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  Speaker 2: it sounds complicated, but it's really easy to do because
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  Speaker 2: almost any dish can again I keep saying inside out
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  Speaker 2: can lend itself to problem solving. So does that does
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  Speaker 2: that make sense?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, But here's a question.
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  Speaker 3: Right, this begs the question because you mentioned something earlier.
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  Speaker 3: There's there's some people hate to cook. Why do some
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  Speaker 3: people hate to cook? Is there a reason for that?
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  Speaker 1: Why is that?
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  Speaker 3: And are people that hate to cook different psychologically speaking
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  Speaker 3: than people that love to cook?
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  Speaker 1: What's the difference? What's speculate on this?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm going to think about that. And you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm in the camp of loving to cook. But and
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  Speaker 2: especially I wasn't always. My kids will tell you, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it was like mac and cheese and hot dogs when
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  Speaker 2: they were growing up. But I think the Food Network
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  Speaker 2: started speaking to a lot of people all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 2: you know, here were these celebrity chefs saying it's easy,
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  Speaker 2: you can do it. You know. I always think of Inegarten,
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  Speaker 2: you know, who does a thirty step recipe and then goes,
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  Speaker 2: how easy was that? And I think people like to
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  Speaker 2: try that, you know, they want to It's almost like
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  Speaker 2: a scientific experiment. It has a beginning, middle, and step.
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  Speaker 2: It's kind of like therapy if you think about it,
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  Speaker 2: you know, identifying sort of the problem and then going
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  Speaker 2: after it. People and also I think a lot of
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  Speaker 2: people confuse, for instance, cooking therapy with just positive cooking,
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  Speaker 2: which is great. It's not clinical. It's I feel so
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  Speaker 2: warm and nurtured and zen and I remember Grandma's banana
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  Speaker 2: bread and it's like foundational. But if people don't feel
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  Speaker 2: that in the kitchen, maybe, you know, that's the beginning.
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  Speaker 2: They don't have warm memories tied to food and family
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  Speaker 2: and it's not nurturing to them.
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  Speaker 3: It's a mature interesting so they hate to cook, maybe
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  Speaker 3: because the kitchen is not a safe place for them.
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  Speaker 2: Ooh, you went so deep, Scott right like that?
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  Speaker 3: Oh I think you went. I think you went de
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  Speaker 3: BOMs women in the kiddie pool. Give me a break, right, Wow,
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  Speaker 3: that's an interesting perspective.
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  Speaker 2: I could do on one of my on one of
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  Speaker 2: my reels, my Instagram videos, like a little poll the troops,
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  Speaker 2: you know kind of things, and ask people what is
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  Speaker 2: it about cooking? You know, people are very busy today too.
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  Speaker 2: I mean that's the thing I like about cooking therapy
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  Speaker 2: because you don't necessarily have to call therapy, so you
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  Speaker 2: don't have to rush. Okay, it's four o'clock. I raced
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  Speaker 2: the therapy ready set go talk about what's bothering you,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and maybe it just you know, it just
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  Speaker 2: feels like one more job to people.
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  Speaker 3: You know, going buying the food, cleaning the food, prepping
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  Speaker 3: the food, cooking the food, cleaning the.
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  Speaker 1: It's a lot, but still yeah, and we love it.
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  Speaker 1: I love it too.
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  Speaker 3: I find it very soothing and I just I just
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  Speaker 3: really like to see my family enjoying a meal.
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  Speaker 2: I'll tell you one other thing that people don't realize
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  Speaker 2: who don't like to cook. Tiny little brain science here.
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  Speaker 2: So all our emotions in the brain are basically in
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  Speaker 2: the amygdala, including like fight and flight and all that.
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  Speaker 2: When you talk to people a therapist, it's very semantic,
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  Speaker 2: it's all wordy, it's all left brain. But the migdala,
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  Speaker 2: which has all the emotions, is in both sides of
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  Speaker 2: our brain, and when you do something tactile and creative,
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  Speaker 2: you hit the whole amygdala. So if I could get
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  Speaker 2: you know, all the viewers to try it or honestly,
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  Speaker 2: anything creative releases all the feel good chemicals, and you
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  Speaker 2: and I are getting that from cooking. Maybe people who
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  Speaker 2: don't like to cook are getting it, you know, from
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  Speaker 2: gardening or flower arranging or writing or something like that.
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  Speaker 2: But I can tell you if you want to jumpstart
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  Speaker 2: your dope, I meine and your oxytose in and oh gosh, serotonin, right,
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  Speaker 2: all of that. Do something tactle and creative. Don't just
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  Speaker 2: talk about it.
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  Speaker 1: Great, that's fantastic. You've done an equine therapy. Tell us
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  Speaker 1: about that.
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  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Well it was very embarrassing. But I
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  Speaker 2: learned so much about myself and not necessarily good, which
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  Speaker 2: is good because then you know what to work on
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  Speaker 2: the job. In a coin therapy, I've done it twice.
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  Speaker 2: The first time, you had to get this wonderful, lovely
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  Speaker 2: horse to move from one side of the ring to
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  Speaker 2: the other, or just to move a little. Couldn't do it?
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  Speaker 2: Could not I? And I'm comfortable around horses, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not like afraid of them or anything. I've actually
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  Speaker 2: like you know, the horse, but not like you know,
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  Speaker 2: like just like a walk or a trot. And I
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  Speaker 2: tried everything. I'm talking to this horse, spreading this sort,
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  Speaker 2: you know, prodding this horse. And at one point I
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  Speaker 2: looked at the therapists and I said, well, could I
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  Speaker 2: just get on the horse and like ride it over?
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  Speaker 2: And she said no, And I was so frustrated, I
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  Speaker 2: like started to cry, and there really was no answer
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  Speaker 2: except that maybe just being still and not trying so hard.
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  Speaker 2: And I realized how like perfectionistic I can be, and
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  Speaker 2: when I don't solve something and achieve it, how much
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  Speaker 2: it frustrates me. So that was That's good. That's like
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  Speaker 2: a little portal to say, hey, you know what, let's
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  Speaker 2: go of that a little and it's it's coming very helpful.
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  Speaker 2: And I tried.
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  Speaker 1: Here's a big question of the day.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I know, if you were to walk into Luke Steiner, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: what would you order?
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  Speaker 1: Where would you sit?
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  Speaker 2: Okay? I would sit at the counter. I'm a chatty
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  Speaker 2: person and I like people like interact with strangers even
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  Speaker 2: and just be like part of it, part of it.
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  Speaker 2: That's what I would say. So that's the first thing.
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  Speaker 2: And I know everyone says burgers and the idlers are
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  Speaker 2: like sort of mouth ordering. It's hard not to say,
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  Speaker 2: but I'm going to say something you're not going to
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  Speaker 2: be aware of. I want the coffee cake that you
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  Speaker 2: made in the first season, Okay, for the birthday because
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  Speaker 2: I am a sweet pastry fanatic.
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  Speaker 1: Gotchall You got it?
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  Speaker 3: Well, uh, we'll get you're ready for you all right?
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  Speaker 3: Last questions. If listens want to try cooking as therapy tonight,
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  Speaker 3: what's one small step they could start with in their
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  Speaker 3: own kitchen to get them going.
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  Speaker 2: So again, pick a topic first, That's what I'd say,
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  Speaker 2: not that you can't do it with whatever you've decided.
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  Speaker 2: I would have to know though, you know what you
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  Speaker 2: were using to sort of be like a sherpa with
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: what because you know, chopping is for one thing, so
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  Speaker 2: saying is for something else, melting butter, you know, a
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: are you feeling, you know, all wund up in tense.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we would pick up the steps. But if
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: you go to my website Cooking as Therapy books dot com,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: there I think is a promotion right now with maybe
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  Speaker 2: a free recipe you wouldn't have to buy the whole book,
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  Speaker 2: and also a link to my course which is free.
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  Speaker 2: You know, there's a mini course that's free. So the
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  Speaker 2: truth is, once you learn how to do it, you
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: can go into your pantry and pick whatever's there and
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  Speaker 2: put together a cooking therapy session. Or you can say
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  Speaker 2: I just have to meet tonight banana bread and we
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: can turn that into a cooking therapy session. But go
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: to the website and then you'll learn how to do it.
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  Speaker 3: All right, give me that website again because we have
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: something different here and I want to give that out.
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  Speaker 2: Cooking us Therapybooks dot com will take you to the
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  Speaker 2: portal for a lot, for more than you ever want
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  Speaker 2: to know about the.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Well. Great, Deborah, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 1: It's so fun and we'd love to have you come
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: back on. We're just at a time. Deborah Borden, go
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: get her book.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: And thanks so much for taking the time to talk
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  Speaker 3: with us today.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you everybody, best fans on the planet.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: Keep those cards and letters coming, and where you lead,
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  Speaker 3: we will follow all the best.
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  Speaker 1: Stay safet
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: Hey everybody, and don't forget Follow us on Instagram at
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: I Am all In podcast and email us at Gilmore
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: at iHeartRadio dot com.