Latest / The Book Deal / Literary agent, Grace Heifetz, on how to get published and championing Aussie authors

Transcript

Literary agent, Grace Heifetz, on how to get published and championing Aussie authors · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan: This is the Book Deal podcast
• 0:11
  Madeleine Cleary: where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Natasha Rai: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Tina Strachan: So no matter what stage of writing your at.
• 0:28
  Tina Strachan: We've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Tina Strachan: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Natasha Rai: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Tina Strachan: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors
• 0:37
  Madeleine Cleary: one deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: Grace Heifetz has been involved in the arts her whole career, both in Australia and overseas.
• 1:02
  Natasha Rai: She joined Curtis Brown in 2002, working in a variety of roles before becoming an agent.
• 1:07
  Natasha Rai: In 2019, she left Curtis Brown to found Left Bank Literary with Gaby Nair.
• 1:13
  Natasha Rai: Grace represents some of the most critically and commercially acclaimed writers in Australia across all genres.
• 1:19
  Natasha Rai: Her clients include writers such as Nakkiah Lui, Sophie Laguna, Emily Maguire, Chris Hammer, Bri Lee, Madeleine Grey, and Hayley Scrivener.
• 1:29
  Natasha Rai: She believes passionately in finding great new voices from across Australia's cultural melting pot and helping establish and nurture their writing careers.
• 1:38
  Natasha Rai: Grace is chair of Open Book Australian Publishing Internship Program, an industry-wide initiative that takes practical steps towards addressing the lack of diversity at all levels and in all sectors of the Australian publishing industry.
• 1:52
  Natasha Rai: Grace is currently on the board of the Blue Mountains Writers Festival and was previously on the board of the National Young Writers Festival Hello, Grace.
• 2:05
  Natasha Rai: Thank you so much for coming onto the pod.
• 2:07
  Natasha Rai: I love talking to people who are in the industry but are not writers specifically,'cause I think we just learn so much.
• 2:13
  Natasha Rai: So would it be okay if we started with you telling me a little bit about A4 Literary-
• 2:19
  Grace Heifetz: Sure
• 2:19
  Natasha Rai: Agency?
• 2:20
  Grace Heifetz: And yeah, I agree.
• 2:21
  Grace Heifetz: I feel like demystifying this industry, Not that I think it's deliberately opaque, but I just think, as much as we can give information because information is, power, as we know.
• 2:35
  Grace Heifetz: So A4 Literary started, wow, we're in our second year.
• 2:39
  Grace Heifetz: We're still babies.
• 2:40
  Grace Heifetz: Um, but towards the end of December whatever it was.
• 2:45
  Grace Heifetz: What are we in now?
• 2:46
  Grace Heifetz: 2004 so it would've been.
• 2:48
  Grace Heifetz: End of 2004.
• 2:50
  Natasha Rai: 2024.
• 2:51
  Grace Heifetz: 2024.
• 2:52
  Grace Heifetz: Oh, yeah, not 2004.
• 2:53
  Grace Heifetz: That would be a much different timeframe.
• 2:56
  Grace Heifetz: But I think I can Speaking for myself, one of the reasons I really felt the need to kind of start the agency was around, the fact that- You know, it's wonderful that we all work for very long periods of time in this industry.
• 3:17
  Grace Heifetz: You know, we can work for a long time.
• 3:19
  Grace Heifetz: Retirement is a thing that maybe because none of us make that much money, but True it's something that, you know, people It's, it's not an ageist industry in that way, you know?
• 3:30
  Grace Heifetz: I think and the people that are in the industry are in it because they love books and words and, and wanna continue doing that.
• 3:36
  Grace Heifetz: So I think it So that's a wonderful aspect of it, but the other side is that it doesn't leave a lot of space to have that next generation come through the ranks.
• 3:47
  Grace Heifetz: And I think, you know, a lot of agents are my age or older.
• 3:53
  Grace Heifetz: Course I'm incredibly young at 51.
• 3:55
  Grace Heifetz: But it, it does mean that we're not, we aren't having sort of new blood, I think.
• 4:03
  Grace Heifetz: And you know, I, I always hope that I will know when I become irrelevant, but understanding that relevance.
• 4:11
  Grace Heifetz: And also just it's, it's, it's a different world from when I started.
• 4:15
  Grace Heifetz: So I really felt that need to sort of start nurturing and, and working with that sort of next generation that are gonna, take over from us, and so there's a succession plan.
• 4:27
  Grace Heifetz: But also, you know, uh, my list was very full and I would I'd see so many wonderful manuscripts and projects come across my desk that I just wasn't able to take on just because of I was at capacity.
• 4:42
  Grace Heifetz: And that means that a lot of writers go overseas for representation, and I think, Australian writers should be represented in Australia.
• 4:52
  Grace Heifetz: And to have co-agents, um, overseas is great, but really this is our primary market and, you know, we understand it best just like UK agents understand their best, and the same with the US.
• 5:04
  Grace Heifetz: And then obviously translation and everything else as well.
• 5:07
  Grace Heifetz: So yeah, I think, I'd known Bec for a long time.
• 5:12
  Grace Heifetz: Uh, she worked with Gabby and I at Left Bank, and with Tom at ANU.
• 5:16
  Grace Heifetz: And Michaela as well, I had known for a really long time.
• 5:21
  Grace Heifetz: And it just sort of- it sort of all just came together, quite quickly, in fact, and it, it just It was serendipitous, I think.
• 5:31
  Grace Heifetz: And I also think sort of having two of us in Sydney and two of us in Melbourne really helped as well.
• 5:38
  Grace Heifetz: And they bring such a, all of them have worked in publishing adjacent industries, but So I think, you know, when we pool our knowledge together there's a really incredible foundation there.
• 5:51
  Grace Heifetz: So, so yeah, no, it's exciting.
• 5:54
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 5:54
  Grace Heifetz: And, um, yeah, we're really loving it, so it's good.
• 5:57
  Grace Heifetz: S-
• 5:58
  Natasha Rai: so given, like, what I see from the writer level, you know, everything always sounds really dire and that the industry is about to die any moment and- we're, you know, we're being taken over by AI and something terrible's coming always.
• 6:13
  Natasha Rai: It feels risky to start a literary agency.
• 6:17
  Natasha Rai: It Did it
• 6:18
  Grace Heifetz: feel risky to you?
• 6:18
  Grace Heifetz: Yes, it does.
• 6:19
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 6:20
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I think so much of this industry- Mm-hmm is sort of, around risk too.
• 6:27
  Grace Heifetz: And I think sometimes if you can start uh, if you can start something like this in the hardest possible time, imagine what it can do, you know, when time comes round and it's good again.
• 6:39
  Grace Heifetz: But, you know, it is a really hard time in publishing, but it's not No one's gonna stop publishing books, you know.
• 6:45
  Grace Heifetz: They're not going anywhere.
• 6:46
  Grace Heifetz: I think that is something that we've really seen that there dua Lipa's opening up libraries in Portugal and, you know, it's, it, it feels, you know I, where did I read something?
• 6:58
  Grace Heifetz: I don't know.
• 6:59
  Grace Heifetz: I don't know what it was in, maybe it was New York Times, that you know, one of the sexiest things to have this summer, you know, is to have a library card.
• 7:09
  Grace Heifetz: I was like, wow, this is the- The- this is incredible.
• 7:13
  Grace Heifetz: It's like the hippest accessory is a library card.
• 7:15
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, I mean, I
• 7:16
  Natasha Rai: agree
• 7:16
  Grace Heifetz: with that, but yeah.
• 7:16
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 7:16
  Grace Heifetz: I, I mean, totally.
• 7:18
  Grace Heifetz: But, uh, I thought I thought we were outliers.
• 7:20
  Grace Heifetz: But, um, but yeah.
• 7:22
  Grace Heifetz: So, so yeah, it's an interesting time when people are talking about reading and their passion for it, and yet it is a tough time in the industry- Mm all round, I think.
• 7:31
  Natasha Rai: And your kind of search or desire to promote the next generation of writers, what does that mean?
• 7:38
  Natasha Rai: Like, are you looking for specific stories or experiences or even, like, people with certain lived experiences?
• 7:45
  Natasha Rai: What does new generation mean to you?
• 7:47
  Grace Heifetz: Um-
• 7:47
  Natasha Rai: Or next generation?
• 7:49
  Grace Heifetz: I think it's as simple as I think the next generation it's not about being the youngest.
• 7:59
  Grace Heifetz: I think you could be, coming up.
• 8:01
  Grace Heifetz: It's How best to put it?
• 8:03
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I think you could be in your 70s and be a next generation writer.
• 8:07
  Grace Heifetz: I don't think it has anything to do with age so much.
• 8:10
  Grace Heifetz: But I think it's, it's stories from Australia now and, and what Australia looks like now as well is very different, um, to, say, 20, 30 years ago.
• 8:25
  Grace Heifetz: Um, so I just think it's being Maybe it's being more open and more Yeah, more open to- To looking in some of the spaces that maybe wouldn't have got that attention,
• 8:45
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 8:45
  Natasha Rai: So let's go back a bit.
• 8:46
  Natasha Rai: Did you always love reading and books?
• 8:49
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 8:49
  Grace Heifetz: As a- My dad, yeah.
• 8:50
  Grace Heifetz: My dad really was He was always a very, very big reader, and he would always, we would always go book shopping together, and he would always pass on books to me.
• 8:58
  Grace Heifetz: So I, I mean, it was something I always loved, but I came at it from a very different sort of angle.
• 9:03
  Grace Heifetz: I'd worked, I'd worked in the arts in various ways.
• 9:07
  Grace Heifetz: I'd worked My first job was receptionist at Cameron Creswell Agency, and, um, I was very proud of myself'cause I typed 13 words a minute, which I soon discovered was not very impressive.
• 9:20
  Grace Heifetz: And then I kind I went and worked for Polygram.
• 9:23
  Grace Heifetz: I worked at record companies.
• 9:24
  Grace Heifetz: Um, and I worked in public radio in the States.
• 9:28
  Grace Heifetz: So it kind of was sort of a mishmash, and I didn't really know where it was gonna take me.
• 9:35
  Grace Heifetz: And then I lived in San Francisco for seven years, and then when I came back my godmother was working at Curtis Brown.
• 9:44
  Grace Heifetz: And I remember I did a I came and covered the front desk while they had their Christmas lunch one year, and then was, I think I, I did I remember Pippa was Pippa went on holidays, and she was, she was at reception at the time.
• 10:00
  Grace Heifetz: And so I did her two weeks stint on holidays, and then it just snowballed after that.
• 10:05
  Grace Heifetz: And I think, you know, it was an incredible foundation to I mean, I was at Curtis Brown, I think on and off- Sort of for 17 years, and-
• 10:15
  Natasha Rai: Wow, yeah
• 10:16
  Grace Heifetz: yeah.
• 10:17
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I think,'cause I came back to Australia at the end of 2002, and so yeah it was a really long time.
• 10:23
  Grace Heifetz: And you know, I, I had a child in between there, but yeah, I mean, it was...
• 10:28
  Grace Heifetz: I learnt an incredible amount there and then was able to te- sort of start building my own list after I was, I assisted Fiona for a really long time, Fiona Inglis, who's the MD there.
• 10:40
  Grace Heifetz: And then it just was a natural progression to start taking on my own clients.
• 10:45
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 10:46
  Natasha Rai: So all those early jobs in the arts, do you remember what was kinda leading you to different things?
• 10:51
  Natasha Rai: Like, were you noticing a love for a certain type of environment or artistry or, do you remember?
• 10:58
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I,
• 10:59
  Natasha Rai: both my- Or was it just kinda going with whatever came up?
• 11:01
  Grace Heifetz: Both my parents were artists, are artists.
• 11:04
  Grace Heifetz: My, my father's, my father's...
• 11:06
  Grace Heifetz: My father died about 10 years ago, but my mom is firmly alive.
• 11:10
  Grace Heifetz: Um, but yeah, so I grew up around artists, I had godparents that were writers.
• 11:15
  Grace Heifetz: It was just something that was always part of my life, and- It's a very familiar- it was the only thing that made sense Yeah.
• 11:23
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 11:23
  Grace Heifetz: I didn't- Mm I didn't actually think about there was...
• 11:26
  Grace Heifetz: But I also think I was really good at supporting them.
• 11:30
  Grace Heifetz: Maybe that was because both my parents.
• 11:33
  Grace Heifetz: Um, but yeah, I, I didn't think I didn't want to, uh...
• 11:38
  Grace Heifetz: I don't think I had any real desire to- Go in to be a creative myself, but I did always think, well, this is, has always been I've been around it all my life.
• 11:52
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 11:52
  Grace Heifetz: It, it's a, it's a natural progression to, to wanna support that.
• 11:57
  Natasha Rai: That's amazing.
• 11:58
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 11:58
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 11:58
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, yeah, it was It's, it sort of just was such a no-brainer to me.
• 12:03
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I think, I think I would've, um, really thrown my parents if I became an accountant or- or, you know, a doctor or, you know, any of these other things.
• 12:14
  Grace Heifetz: It just, yeah, it just made sense.
• 12:17
  Natasha Rai: So when you, uh, got your first kind of clients, like your author clients, what was that like?
• 12:21
  Natasha Rai: Do you remember?
• 12:22
  Natasha Rai: Like, h- I don't know.
• 12:23
  Natasha Rai: It feels nerve-wracking to me-
• 12:25
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah
• 12:25
  Natasha Rai: to i- imagine that because, I don't know, like you bring some editorial experience.
• 12:30
  Natasha Rai: You have to bring a lot of knowledge, like, across different parts of the publishing process, right?
• 12:37
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, and I Look, I had I, I sort of watched and learnt for so many years before I actually started taking on my own clients, and I was incredibly supported there, um, at Curtis Brown and, had the other agents there to bounce things off.
• 12:52
  Grace Heifetz: Um, so I felt like I was in a very safe space to do that and to explore that.
• 12:58
  Grace Heifetz: But you know, I think it got to a point where I was like,"Okay, it's time to give this a go for real." Mm.
• 13:07
  Grace Heifetz: For, for And, um- And I really loved it.
• 13:10
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I think I will I mean, I don't co- obviously I don't come from an editorial background.
• 13:15
  Grace Heifetz: Um, I would say, I'm a reader.
• 13:17
  Grace Heifetz: I'm a big reader.
• 13:19
  Grace Heifetz: I don't do edits on the line.
• 13:21
  Grace Heifetz: It really looks i'm much more about that big structural- Mm-hmm kind of overview.
• 13:27
  Grace Heifetz: And I find I find it best to have those conversations with writers direct, so it's very much a flow.
• 13:34
  Grace Heifetz: But yeah, I mean, I still find it terrifying.
• 13:37
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I s- every time I sit down to write a pitch letter for a submission, I get nervous about it, and I always share that with the author.
• 13:45
  Grace Heifetz: Not the nervousness, they have that themselves.
• 13:50
  Grace Heifetz: But it, it is shared.
• 13:51
  Grace Heifetz: Um, but you know, because it's I want to You know, if, if we're the ones that are going out and championing the work and, you know, very often we're the first readers and- Mm-hmm um, you know, the way that book goes out to market first and foremost is through us, then I wanna make sure that I've got that right.
• 14:13
  Grace Heifetz: And yeah, it's always nerve-wracking to do that.
• 14:17
  Grace Heifetz: And a- and again, obviously authors feel it tenfold, but I always You know, I feel very, I'm very invested in everything I send out.
• 14:27
  Grace Heifetz: And yeah when someone says no or rejects something, I, I I totally understand it.
• 14:34
  Grace Heifetz: It's totally, it's totally subjective.
• 14:36
  Grace Heifetz: You know, you it hurts- It hurts a little.
• 14:38
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 14:38
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 14:38
  Grace Heifetz: Okay.
• 14:39
  Grace Heifetz: Totally.
• 14:39
  Grace Heifetz: Totally.
• 14:40
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 14:40
  Natasha Rai: What's your favorite part of the kind of agenting, if that's the word, process?
• 14:45
  Grace Heifetz: there's so many.
• 14:47
  Grace Heifetz: I love the matchmaking.
• 14:49
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I, I think, you know, when I read a manuscript it's sort of It contradicts, but the first time I read a manuscript the way I know it's kind of got, got its hooks in me is that I forget that I'm reading a manuscript, you know, and I just I'm just in that story.
• 15:11
  Grace Heifetz: I forget, I forget, you know- That it is a manuscript.
• 15:15
  Grace Heifetz: But, and this is where the contradiction comes in, I also start thinking about who I really wanna send it to.
• 15:21
  Grace Heifetz: You know, which publishers I think it would resonate with who would love it, who would, you know and who the right what the right fit would be.
• 15:30
  Grace Heifetz: And so that's always a really fun part of it.
• 15:33
  Grace Heifetz: And, it I'll, I'll never, I'll never tire of picking up, you know, that first copy or that ARC of particularly of a debut author, because it's such an incredible experience.
• 15:44
  Grace Heifetz: It's, it's incredibly special.
• 15:46
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, and you know that.
• 15:47
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 15:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, it is incredibly special.
• 15:50
  Natasha Rai: How quickly, when you're reading a manuscript, like from a submission, do you know it's not for you?
• 15:55
  Grace Heifetz: Sometimes I know, pretty quickly, if it's right for me or for my list And, and a lot of that is probably happens before.
• 16:04
  Grace Heifetz: Like, if I, if I read a pitch or a synopsis I I can you can tell if it's something that you wanna pursue or that, or sort of piques your interest.
• 16:14
  Grace Heifetz: I think I mean, we usually say 50 pages.
• 16:18
  Grace Heifetz: Like, if I'm reading it, it's And sometimes I'll need to read the whole manuscript, you know, to make that call because, again And I guess this is one of the reasons, you know, that we really wanted to start A4 is because, it's a it's not a small feat to write a book, you know?
• 16:38
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 16:39
  Grace Heifetz: And I think And I never want to Be too jaded about that and dismissive.
• 16:46
  Grace Heifetz: And so, it takes time, and I think that's the hardest thing about when you send when a writer sends out a, um, their submission.
• 16:56
  Grace Heifetz: It, it takes time.
• 16:57
  Grace Heifetz: You know, reading, it is one of the jobs that And I, it's I'm an incredibly slow reader.
• 17:03
  Grace Heifetz: Um, and also it's hard to carve out time.
• 17:06
  Grace Heifetz: Like, most of my reading is done early in the morning, in the evening, or on weekends.
• 17:12
  Grace Heifetz: Like, at least one day on the weekend is spelt dedicated, is spent dedicated to reading manuscripts.
• 17:20
  Grace Heifetz: Um, because it's just too hard to find that time and that concentrated time during the day, um, during a workday.
• 17:27
  Grace Heifetz: And I have a lot of manuscripts, and then when I have client manuscripts come in, they have to take priority, and often there's deadlines and publishers are waiting for it.
• 17:35
  Grace Heifetz: So, they have to, they sort of have to go.
• 17:39
  Grace Heifetz: They go to the top of the list.
• 17:40
  Grace Heifetz: And so, that waiting period is really tough.
• 17:43
  Grace Heifetz: But also I wanna give it I don't want to, to dismiss it out of hand.
• 17:48
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:48
  Grace Heifetz: I really wanna give it that consideration.
• 17:50
  Grace Heifetz: And if it's also If I read something and if it's not for me, but there's absolutely something in it, I will always share it with my colleagues because I have a lot of lists.
• 18:02
  Grace Heifetz: Does that happen a lot?
• 18:03
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 18:03
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, definitely.
• 18:03
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah?
• 18:04
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, again, it's so, it's so personal, you know?
• 18:07
  Grace Heifetz: And, and there are also so many other reasons why maybe you wouldn't take something on that's not right for you.
• 18:13
  Grace Heifetz: Maybe there's a clash on your list.
• 18:14
  Grace Heifetz: You don't want f- people to feel like they're in competition on your list.
• 18:19
  Grace Heifetz: So I would Because I, I mean, I really am taking on, one to two projects a year.
• 18:26
  Grace Heifetz: That's all I can really take on at this point.
• 18:28
  Grace Heifetz: So yeah, I absolutely share it with the team.
• 18:32
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 18:32
  Grace Heifetz: Mm, mm.
• 18:32
  Grace Heifetz: Um, you know, Mikayla and Becca are building lists and you know, if something's not right for me, it doesn't mean that it's not gonna find a home at all, and often it does, you know?
• 18:43
  Grace Heifetz: So, I definitely share it around.
• 18:46
  Natasha Rai: That's really great.
• 18:48
  Natasha Rai: And you know that, um, kind of- feeling that writers get, like, about is this going to be a good fit?
• 18:56
  Natasha Rai: Like, they should do some of that homework themselves, right?
• 18:58
  Grace Heifetz: Absolutely.
• 18:59
  Natasha Rai: To
• 18:59
  Grace Heifetz: check.
• 18:59
  Grace Heifetz: A-
• 19:00
  Natasha Rai: and so on that point, like, I know a few writers, and I've had this kind of feedback myself, and now, now I can't remember if it, it was from an agent or a publisher, but something around,"Well, we've already commissioned," or,"We've already got someone writing this story," or,"We've already got..." Well, someone I know said to me the they were told,"Well, we've already got an Asian writer, so that's our quota."
• 19:21
  Grace Heifetz: Oh, yeah.
• 19:22
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:23
  Grace Heifetz: Don't even get me started on that one.
• 19:24
  Grace Heifetz: That wouldn't float for me.
• 19:26
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 19:26
  Grace Heifetz: Um, but I think doing Going back a step to what I often will say, it is like finding the right therapist or doctor, you know?
• 19:38
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 19:38
  Grace Heifetz: Like, it is a personal relationship, and it is that connection.
• 19:42
  Grace Heifetz: And I think, look at the acknowledgments in books that you love.
• 19:46
  Grace Heifetz: Um, you know, do a little bit of a deep dive.
• 19:49
  Grace Heifetz: Thank God for the internet, you can do that now.
• 19:51
  Grace Heifetz: So you can really kind of, hone your pitch.
• 19:55
  Grace Heifetz: And, agents love being flattered as much as the next person, so, um, mention the authors that they represent.
• 20:02
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I think, I think that it does make a difference, you know, when, when you think someone has actually put some time and energy rather than- Mm-hmm.
• 20:09
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, I do remember Curtis Brown, we used to get,"Dear Mr.
• 20:13
  Grace Heifetz: Curtis Brown," and, we were all women.
• 20:16
  Grace Heifetz: Yes.
• 20:16
  Grace Heifetz: And it's like, wow, y- you can't even be bothered.
• 20:19
  Grace Heifetz: There, there is no Mr.
• 20:20
  Grace Heifetz: Curtis Brown.
• 20:21
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah,
• 20:21
  Natasha Rai: yeah.
• 20:21
  Grace Heifetz: So I think, I think, doing some of that research it doesn't take a lot, but it does pay off.
• 20:27
  Natasha Rai: And what about maybe an impression that there's a quota of some kind, or if someone has written a similar story?
• 20:34
  Natasha Rai: Like, is, is that an Australian thing because our industry market is quite small, or is that just a urban myth or...?
• 20:41
  Grace Heifetz: Look, I would never want, I would never want an author to feel that they are competing- within the list.
• 20:52
  Grace Heifetz: You know, it's hard enough out there.
• 20:54
  Grace Heifetz: But in saying what that framework is-
• 20:57
  Natasha Rai: Mm
• 20:59
  Grace Heifetz: for wh- I would never say I have, as you were saying, you know, I have this one Asian writer, and therefore that's my quota.
• 21:07
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 21:07
  Grace Heifetz: But I do think it's important, and I do think agents curate their lists as well because yeah, you, you don't wanna feel like you're, you know, up against someone in the same-
• 21:21
  Natasha Rai: Yeah
• 21:21
  Grace Heifetz: uh, in the same space.
• 21:23
  Natasha Rai: And I'm it feels obvious, but I, I wanna ask there must be different considerations you have if you're reading a debut or an emerging writer's work compared to, say, an author that's your client that's written one or two books already, right?
• 21:36
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, definitely.
• 21:37
  Grace Heifetz: Definitely.
• 21:38
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 21:38
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, I mean, again, it's- It's timing, you know?
• 21:42
  Grace Heifetz: Like, it's, it's whether it's whether you get, like if there is something where I feel like I'm totally snowed under and I've got, you know, 16 manuscripts queued and I just can't add another one to my list, then I will often pass something on.
• 21:58
  Grace Heifetz: But if it's a, you know, if there is a window where, I've just sort of, you know, I've gotten through my stack and there's something that I'm just, you know, thinking about that, like, lands on my lap or if it's a recommendation, then yeah, it, it does it's time is, it's timing, you know?
• 22:16
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 22:16
  Grace Heifetz: So much of this is luck and sort of, um, yeah, right time, right place, I think across the board in publishing.
• 22:24
  Natasha Rai: A- and you know, and one of the things that I hear,'cause, you know, my second book's coming out soon, and I know that it's difficult to get another deal once you have your debut out.
• 22:34
  Natasha Rai: But, um, in terms of, like, things like sales, because, you know, a, a small press, their sale num- sales numbers might be really good for them, but from a market point of view it may not be.
• 22:46
  Natasha Rai: Does How much does that matter if you're considering, like, a second or a third book by an author who maybe whose sales don't look good, for want of a better word?
• 22:56
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah, I mean, I think- I think you need to be realistic about, if you're at a smaller indie press, and depending on where the book sits, you know, 2,000 copies is not, you know, I don't I, I it's not ba- Like, I just think you have to manage expectations, um, particularly around, what, if it is a more commercial, if it's a more commercial manuscript or book that is going to be sold predominantly through the discount department stores or through chains- Mm versus being hand-selled, hand-sold from independent bookstores.
• 23:39
  Grace Heifetz: So I just think, yeah, it's really important to really look at the whole picture.
• 23:45
  Grace Heifetz: And I think, you know, i- if you were, if you Like, if a writer was initially published by a smaller indie press and was looking to break out, and maybe they'd gone direct before or it had been, it had won an award, and they wanted to kind of, um, you know, cast the net out wide and look at getting an agent or look at sort of getting a publisher in a slightly different space, I think, publish- publishers, agents, we all understand- Mm what, what that is and what that looks like.
• 24:20
  Grace Heifetz: And again, you know, it's, it's a really tough time in the market, so sales figures, 2,000 copies in 2010 looks very different to what it looks like in'26.
• 24:37
  Natasha Rai: Wow.
• 24:37
  Natasha Rai: Mm, that's interesting.
• 24:38
  Natasha Rai: Hadn't thought of it like that before.
• 24:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 24:40
  Grace Heifetz: And I think we're all aware of that.
• 24:42
  Grace Heifetz: You know?
• 24:42
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 24:42
  Grace Heifetz: I think we're, we're definitely all, all aware of that, and that is taken into consideration.
• 24:47
  Grace Heifetz: And really it's the work, you know?
• 24:48
  Grace Heifetz: I think I think it depends on, on the manuscript that's in front of you.
• 24:54
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 24:54
  Grace Heifetz: For
• 24:54
  Natasha Rai: sure.
• 24:55
  Natasha Rai: Uh, and so you mentioned earlier about, you know, doing a bit of homework or research before you submit.
• 25:00
  Natasha Rai: What other common mistakes do you see in submissions?
• 25:03
  Grace Heifetz: Ooh.
• 25:05
  Grace Heifetz: Mistakes.
• 25:05
  Grace Heifetz: I think less around mistakes, but more around, you know, I think every agency has a website, and it's really important to look at the guidelines on the website, and I think submission guidelines are often there.
• 25:27
  Natasha Rai: Oh,
• 25:27
  Grace Heifetz: yeah, yeah.
• 25:28
  Grace Heifetz: Um, and I think they're listed.
• 25:29
  Grace Heifetz: I think- Can't really think of mistakes I am sure there are- Well, that's good.
• 25:32
  Grace Heifetz: I'm, I'm, I'm just- I'm sure there are mistakes out there, but I think it's more, I think, I think it's more about, like, looking at it as a positive is doing your research- Yeah really, you know, l- looking at other authors that they represent.
• 25:47
  Grace Heifetz: Really actually thinking about that is probably the best thing you can do, and the most important thing to do.
• 25:52
  Grace Heifetz: Uh, w- I mean, and I would say it is better to query an agent, particularly more so in fiction, when you've actually finished the manuscript.
• 26:03
  Grace Heifetz: Um, because often it'll say,"Send the first 50 pages or the first three chapters," and you do, and then if it piques the agent's interest, they'll call the rest of the manuscript in, and there is nothing more annoying than going,"Okay, so I'd love to read the rest." They go,"Oh, I haven't finished it yet." It's like, and you miss that, you know, you've got this momentum, and you just- Mm kind of lose out on that a little bit.
• 26:27
  Grace Heifetz: So I think it's, I think it, particularly in fiction, you know, it's...
• 26:31
  Grace Heifetz: You can't, very rarely if ever do sell a manuscript, particularly for a debut, on a, on a sample.
• 26:39
  Grace Heifetz: You really have to- Yeah see the full arc and read the full manuscript.
• 26:43
  Grace Heifetz: With nonfiction it's slightly different.
• 26:45
  Grace Heifetz: You know, proposals, you can definitely sell on a proposal or sample chapters.
• 26:49
  Grace Heifetz: But yeah, I would say make sure that that you have completed the manuscript, but not only that, but that it's in the best shape that you feel that you can get it to, because you only get that first read once.
• 27:05
  Grace Heifetz: I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's, like, it is...
• 27:08
  Grace Heifetz: There's something about- It's true.
• 27:09
  Grace Heifetz: Mm, mm you know, of course I will read redrafts, but it really, that first read is so important, and so you do really wanna make sure that it can be in the absolute best shape best shape it can be in once, once it goes out.
• 27:24
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 27:25
  Natasha Rai: That's excellent advice.
• 27:26
  Natasha Rai: So, you know, you're on the, our board of the Blue Mountains Writers' Festival, and you've been working in the industry for so long.
• 27:34
  Natasha Rai: How has it changed since you first started and, and, because there's so much dire stuff out there.
• 27:39
  Natasha Rai: Is, is there good stuff happening that we writers don't get to see?
• 27:43
  Grace Heifetz: I don't wanna get into the doom and gloom of where we're at in publishing.
• 27:48
  Grace Heifetz: Um- Look, I think I know Gabby always used to say this,"Agents are optimists," and it's true.
• 27:54
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I think we have to stay optimistic, otherwise, it can look pretty dire.
• 28:00
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 28:06
  Grace Heifetz: I think there, I mean, and I don't know, this obviously is harder in Australia, but to really see the enthusiasm for translated fiction particularly, I think is really exciting.
• 28:23
  Grace Heifetz: I know that doesn't say a lot, because we are in Australia, we're talking about Australian writers.
• 28:27
  Grace Heifetz: But to seeing, to see readers really exploring beyond their own backdoor I think is really important and and there's a real hunger for that and, and an, and an enthusiasm which I think is really exciting.
• 28:45
  Grace Heifetz: And, you know, I, I still think there is real enthusiasm from the weird and the wonderful as well, you know?
• 28:54
  Grace Heifetz: I think that's something that I guess it's always been there.
• 28:59
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I don't think, we're not reinventing the wheel, you know?
• 29:03
  Grace Heifetz: Like, I think, I think good storytelling is good storytelling and But obviously we have generations of writers speaking to each other, and I guess our job is to make, just to keep making sure that, that keeps flowing through and rolling over, And to be there to support.
• 29:25
  Grace Heifetz: Because, you know, we I mean, we can be as doom and gloom as we want, but if we don't have you, the writer, we don't publishers don't have w- agents don't have anything to agent.
• 29:37
  Grace Heifetz: Like, we I would hate to think that it's all doom and gloom, because it means people will stop writing books, and that would be a tragedy.
• 29:44
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, it would be.
• 29:46
  Natasha Rai: Definitely.
• 29:48
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 29:48
  Grace Heifetz: And, and j- I think we can all agree on that.
• 29:48
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 29:49
  Natasha Rai: A- and in terms of, you know, because of your relationships and networks overseas a- and international agents, et cetera, what are you seeing in terms of appetite for Australian books and writers?
• 30:00
  Natasha Rai: Are there certain markets that they have you know, they're really interested, and there's some that are just really difficult?
• 30:05
  Grace Heifetz: I think breaking books out overseas is really hard right now.
• 30:09
  Grace Heifetz: I do think that is one.
• 30:10
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 30:10
  Grace Heifetz: And I think that is why I totally understand that the aspiration and the aim to be published internationally.
• 30:19
  Grace Heifetz: I think, you know, commonly it's like, well, the US is where the money is, but the UK is where the prestige is.
• 30:25
  Grace Heifetz: But actually, it's your home market that is most important, and I think it's really easy to lose sight of that.
• 30:33
  Grace Heifetz: And I think it is a constant reminder You know, I tell so many of my writers that when they're overseas, go into Daunt Books, go into Foyles, go into, you know, a Barnes Noble.
• 30:45
  Grace Heifetz: Go into the indies wherever you are and look at how many books you've never heard of, how many writers you've never heard of.
• 30:52
  Grace Heifetz: Because it's the same going that way as it is going this way.
• 30:55
  Grace Heifetz: That's right.
• 30:56
  Grace Heifetz: Yes.
• 30:56
  Grace Heifetz: Um, and I think when times are tough, the easiest thing to say no to is any international buy-ins.
• 31:05
  Grace Heifetz: Because, you know, there are already obstacles there.
• 31:08
  Grace Heifetz: The author isn't on the ground.
• 31:09
  Grace Heifetz: You know, you're, you're working in a harder space sometimes.
• 31:15
  Grace Heifetz: So very often when times are tough, it's the first thing they go,"Well, we have to support it's a tough time.
• 31:22
  Grace Heifetz: We have to support our own market." And so yes, we are seeing less books being, Australian books being published internationally.
• 31:31
  Grace Heifetz: And then some could say, you know, we're, we're having the greatest success and attention of Australian writers.
• 31:38
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, Charlotte Wood is a wonderful example- Mm of that.
• 31:41
  Grace Heifetz: So I, I think And, look, I don't feel- Talking to agents and publishers outside of Australia I s- I still feel like there is an absolute I, again, I still think there is absolute enthusiasm there, it's just there, there's more caution, I'd say.
• 32:03
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 32:03
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 32:04
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Grace Heifetz: But I don't think it's I think, I it's You can still get books in front of publishers- Mm-hmm and agents for them to consider.
• 32:11
  Grace Heifetz: I just think it's, it's a more restrictive market.
• 32:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 32:15
  Natasha Rai: And I think that, I think most writers know that here.
• 32:18
  Natasha Rai: Or if they don't, well, here's your Here's your wake up call here's your little reminder.
• 32:22
  Natasha Rai: They do now.
• 32:23
  Natasha Rai: Um, so in terms of publishers here in Australia, like, there's been a lot of changes in the last, like, few years.
• 32:29
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 32:30
  Natasha Rai: And recently there were more consolidations.
• 32:33
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 32:34
  Natasha Rai: What are you noticing in terms of, what publishers are looking for, h- what the changes are made for writers or books?
• 32:44
  Grace Heifetz: I think, I do think it's cyclic.
• 32:47
  Grace Heifetz: You know?
• 32:48
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 32:48
  Grace Heifetz: I think, I think we're at a time And, and, and, it's as basic as the economy.
• 32:55
  Grace Heifetz: You know?
• 32:55
  Grace Heifetz: It's interest rates.
• 32:56
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, it's I wish it was sort of, more poetic than that, but it is.
• 33:03
  Grace Heifetz: It's- It's the economy that drives it, you know?
• 33:08
  Grace Heifetz: And it's time.
• 33:09
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 33:09
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I think, I think, you know, we had this wonderful moment in, in COVID, um, and I know I say wonderful and COVID together, but, there were some wonderful things about it where people were really having to look inward.
• 33:24
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 33:24
  Grace Heifetz: And, you know, people that hadn't read for a long time were coming back to books'cause that's the way they could travel.
• 33:30
  Grace Heifetz: That's the way they could, you know, be in other worlds that they, that, you know, they wouldn't have other means to before.
• 33:38
  Grace Heifetz: So I think, you know, we really had a period of, of people buying books and engaged with that.
• 33:45
  Grace Heifetz: And now it is, it's that combination of yes, and this is, I This has been happening over the last few years.
• 33:52
  Grace Heifetz: Of course, the world has opened up again, so that's changed that trajectory.
• 33:59
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 33:59
  Grace Heifetz: But again, the it's a tough economy out there.
• 34:02
  Grace Heifetz: And, asking people to spend$35 on a book is a big ask.
• 34:08
  Grace Heifetz: And I think that's I mean, that's just the reality of it.
• 34:12
  Grace Heifetz: And it's, it's been really sad seeing a, a, a lot of our independents, independent publishers sort of, um- consolidating or being bought out, because we need them, you know?
• 34:27
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, we've been saying it for a long time and there needs to be support for the, for independent publishers as well, because they're not as reliant on, big brands and blockbusters that are coming in from the US and the UK that can help level out that bottom line.
• 34:43
  Grace Heifetz: So I do think, the arts, they, they need to be funded and supported.
• 34:48
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 34:49
  Natasha Rai: I mean, they, they do make strange bedfellows, like commerce and arts.
• 34:53
  Natasha Rai: Like- Yeah you know, you're, you're trying to sell something that is so personal for so many people.
• 34:58
  Natasha Rai: Like- readers love reading because there's something that connects them to the work.
• 35:03
  Natasha Rai: It's not about,"Oh, I'll go and buy something from Prest-" I mean, maybe Prestige now, I don't know.
• 35:08
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 35:08
  Natasha Rai: But you know, it, you know, like it's so, it's such a different feeling when the book is on the shelf to what connects to- Yeah getting it out there.
• 35:16
  Grace Heifetz: And it is a business, and I, I think what exactly what you're saying is right.
• 35:19
  Grace Heifetz: It is a wonderful business, it's a creative business, but it's a business.
• 35:23
  Grace Heifetz: And- Mm for it to survive, it has to make money.
• 35:27
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 35:27
  Grace Heifetz: There's just no two ways about it.
• 35:29
  Grace Heifetz: So I, I think, yeah, there is a slight disconnect there sometimes.
• 35:34
  Grace Heifetz: I think people- Mm just have an expectation that it will continue and, and thrive, and it's like, well, it needs the support out there too, so.
• 35:42
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 35:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 35:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:44
  Natasha Rai: Speaking of support, are there authors that your, part of your client base or books that are coming out maybe later this year or next year that you're super excited about, that you wanna plug?
• 35:55
  Natasha Rai: I should have warned you I was
• 35:57
  Grace Heifetz: gonna ask you.
• 35:58
  Grace Heifetz: There are so many.
• 35:58
  Grace Heifetz: No, you should've warned me that.
• 35:58
  Grace Heifetz: Oh, God, I ca- I c- I can't.
• 36:01
  Natasha Rai: There's just too many?
• 36:02
  Grace Heifetz: I can't ever pick out my children.
• 36:06
  Grace Heifetz: That's way too hard.
• 36:08
  Grace Heifetz: I have to say Chris Hammer's new series just came out on the ABC on Sunday night.
• 36:15
  Grace Heifetz: And so this is So do you, like, it's book related, but it's not- Yes particular.
• 36:19
  Grace Heifetz: But, but it- Great but it was, you know, I think every time it's such a rare thing, you know.
• 36:23
  Grace Heifetz: So many books get optioned for film and TV, but as we know, the percentage rate of them being made is minuscule at best.
• 36:32
  Grace Heifetz: So it's always exciting when you see an adaptation come out, because it's, it's the same but it's different.
• 36:40
  Grace Heifetz: Um, so that's always a bit of a thrill.
• 36:43
  Grace Heifetz: But no, there's so many wonderful books.
• 36:45
  Grace Heifetz: I couldn't possibly, I couldn't possibly choose.
• 36:47
  Grace Heifetz: You
• 36:48
  Natasha Rai: couldn't possibly.
• 36:49
  Grace Heifetz: No, I could not.
• 36:51
  Natasha Rai: Good answer.
• 36:52
  Natasha Rai: But so just on that point about, you know, film and TV rights, et cetera- How does that work in terms of do you give advice to writers about how involved they should get, or is that something very personal that each writer comes to their own comfort on that?
• 37:08
  Grace Heifetz: I think it's quite personal, I do.
• 37:10
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 37:10
  Grace Heifetz: But I will say that, you know, historically you used to option books, and you would option it, and then the producer's production company, the writers that They'd take it away, and you wouldn't really be involved.
• 37:24
  Grace Heifetz: Where I do think more than ever, um, producers and production companies want the involvement of the writer, which makes sense because they're the creator of the world.
• 37:34
  Grace Heifetz: You know, when you kinda go,"Well, would this person do this?" Or would this be here in, in, in the house or in this landscape?" You have the creator right there.
• 37:45
  Grace Heifetz: So I always really encourage my writers if they want to, um, to get in the room, the writer's room, and consult'cause I think it's such an interesting process.
• 37:57
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 37:57
  Grace Heifetz: And also it is incredibly valuable information as well.
• 38:03
  Grace Heifetz: You know, I have, I have writers that, that want to adapt their work or have adapted their work.
• 38:08
  Grace Heifetz: I've got other writers that have just said,"You know what?
• 38:11
  Grace Heifetz: I hand this over and go forth, and I trust these people to create the best possible version." So it just it really depends.
• 38:21
  Grace Heifetz: Mm.
• 38:22
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 38:22
  Grace Heifetz: Um, sometimes it's just, it's a matter of time, you know?
• 38:25
  Grace Heifetz: That there is It takes a long time to develop film and TV, so I think, you know, that can be all-consuming and take, take writers- Mm-hmm away from, you know, their- the work of, the next book.
• 38:39
  Grace Heifetz: So I think, again, it just has to be sort of realistic at what, at, at what you can commit to.
• 38:46
  Natasha Rai: And the next question I wanna ask you is might be too dif- not too difficult, but might be tricky.
• 38:52
  Natasha Rai: What do you see in the next, like, maybe few years for Australian publishing?
• 38:57
  Natasha Rai: Maybe what do you see and maybe what do you hope for?
• 38:59
  Natasha Rai: I don't know if they're two different questions or they come together.
• 39:02
  Grace Heifetz: I hope that we kinda level out a bit- Mm of where, because I do think it has been a particularly tough run, and I would like to see that recalibrate and balance, which I think we are in the process of, I say optimistically.
• 39:24
  Grace Heifetz: And what I hope for is No, I did the hope.
• 39:29
  Grace Heifetz: That's a bit of hope.
• 39:30
  Grace Heifetz: I guess it's all hope.
• 39:31
  Grace Heifetz: I guess we just keep- Yeah,
• 39:33
  Natasha Rai: yeah, yeah
• 39:34
  Grace Heifetz: And I ho- I mean, I guess it ties in that that we continue to I think we have an incredibly rich, creative, artistic community in this country, and I just hope that we are able to continue to celebrate that, uh, and to support that through all means.
• 40:01
  Grace Heifetz: You know, whether that be government funding.
• 40:04
  Grace Heifetz: I mean, I think Writing Australia is a wonderful initiative.
• 40:08
  Grace Heifetz: I think that is huge steps.
• 40:10
  Grace Heifetz: But also, you know, the support of publishers, and also supporting, writers as well, because it is a labor of love.
• 40:19
  Grace Heifetz: Living on the smell of an oily rag, it's hard.
• 40:22
  Grace Heifetz: It's really tough.
• 40:23
  Grace Heifetz: So yeah, I, I hope that there is, is more scope and vision to enable writers to continue and to do that.
• 40:35
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I like that.
• 40:36
  Natasha Rai: Mm.
• 40:36
  Natasha Rai: I hope so too.
• 40:37
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 40:37
  Grace Heifetz: Gotta be optimistic.
• 40:38
  Natasha Rai: Um, and final question.
• 40:40
  Natasha Rai: I know you've already given us loads, but do you have any top tips or a top tip for emerging writers who are looking for a traditional publishing deal?
• 40:49
  Grace Heifetz: Patience.
• 40:50
  Grace Heifetz: Good one.
• 40:51
  Grace Heifetz: It's something I don't have, so, you know, I say that, you know?
• 40:54
  Grace Heifetz: But I think I think it takes time.
• 40:57
  Grace Heifetz: You know?
• 40:58
  Grace Heifetz: I think you really It's that dedication to the work, to the craft, and it has to be about that more than anything.
• 41:08
  Grace Heifetz: I think so many, a lot of writers will say,"Well, what, what...""What is it?
• 41:12
  Grace Heifetz: What's working?
• 41:13
  Grace Heifetz: What, what should I be writing?" And i- like, writing to brief, I know some writers can do it, but it's, it's it doesn't come from the heart, you know?
• 41:25
  Grace Heifetz: It kinda still has to come It has to be something that you have to do, that you can't not do.
• 41:33
  Grace Heifetz: Yes.
• 41:33
  Grace Heifetz: You know what I mean?
• 41:34
  Grace Heifetz: Yep.
• 41:34
  Grace Heifetz: I think-
• 41:35
  Natasha Rai: Yes
• 41:35
  Grace Heifetz: I think sort of going,"Well, you know, I'm gonna make, write the next, great, epic, romanticie series," I just think it's never realistic.
• 41:44
  Grace Heifetz: You can see kind of right through it.
• 41:47
  Grace Heifetz: And I think, it's also about You know, so many people ask about trends, but by the time that trend's out, you know, we work so far in advance that there's a million other things that have happened since then, and that will continue to.
• 42:02
  Grace Heifetz: So I think it's very hard to be specific around that, and so often it's just, it's so left of center when it happens, and no one sees it coming.
• 42:13
  Grace Heifetz: And I think, if we all knew what the next big thing was, you know- We'd be millionaires.
• 42:20
  Grace Heifetz: Exactly.
• 42:22
  Natasha Rai: Maybe.
• 42:22
  Grace Heifetz: Maybe.
• 42:23
  Grace Heifetz: Maybe just, what's one step down from millionaires?
• 42:25
  Grace Heifetz: But, you know
• 42:27
  Natasha Rai: No, that's, that's I like that patience because I think, yeah it's tough to be patient sometimes, especially when You know that, that, that horri- it's not horrible, it's that agonizing period where you're getting feedback from publishers or agents, like actual feedback about, oof, you know?
• 42:42
  Natasha Rai: And you can feel that your work's getting better.
• 42:45
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 42:46
  Natasha Rai: So it's a very, very writerly agony, but And it's like,"Oh, I feel like I'm so close, and I'm just not getting there." So the patience I think at that point especially helps.
• 42:56
  Grace Heifetz: Yeah.
• 42:57
  Grace Heifetz: I think it's, I think what we wanna do, well, what as agents is the foundation of a long-term career.
• 43:07
  Grace Heifetz: You know?
• 43:08
  Grace Heifetz: It's not you have You know, it is nurturing that for the long term.
• 43:14
  Grace Heifetz: You wanna, that you wanna keep doing.
• 43:16
  Grace Heifetz: It's, you know, and often, often there's writers that it's only one book, and that's fine.
• 43:20
  Grace Heifetz: But I think for the most part it is about really creating a strong foundation for a long-term career.
• 43:30
  Grace Heifetz: And that's and so yeah, sometimes it feels brutal.
• 43:35
  Grace Heifetz: And look I've been Yeah.
• 43:39
  Grace Heifetz: I've been working with some writers for years and years to get, to get it right.
• 43:43
  Grace Heifetz: And you know, not that you want that for everyone, and doesn't necessarily But it, it is, it's perseverance and it's patience, and it is just and making sure it's always about the work, you know?
• 43:59
  Grace Heifetz: Mm-hmm.
• 43:59
  Grace Heifetz: That, that is, you know, first and foremost.
• 44:04
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 44:05
  Natasha Rai: Um, Grace Heifetz, thank you so much for your time.
• 44:08
  Natasha Rai: I know you're busy, so I really appreciate it.
• 44:10
  Grace Heifetz: My pleasure.
• 44:11
  Grace Heifetz: Thanks, Tash.
• 44:11
  Grace Heifetz: It's been really lovely chatting.
• 44:13
  Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
• 44:17
  If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast