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Book Club: The Sapling Cage · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
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Speaker 1: When I ever told you production of iHeartRadio.
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Speaker 2: And for this month's book club reading, we are reading
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Speaker 2: The Sapling Cage, written by fellow podcaster and friend of
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Speaker 2: the show, Margaret Killjoy. Hey, and yes again, fellow podcaster
0:33
Speaker 2: Anie and I've both been on her show called Cool
0:35
Speaker 2: People Who Did Cool Stuff, So you should go and
0:37
Speaker 2: listen to those if you want to. Also, if you're
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Speaker 2: not already subscribed to Margaret's substack, you should because I'm
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Speaker 2: gonna read this off of our substack Margaret Kiljoy dot
0:47
Speaker 2: substack dot com. That's where you can find it. And
0:49
Speaker 2: she writes, it's a funny place for me to be
0:51
Speaker 2: in as a reasonable established author, But I do feel
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Speaker 2: a sort of weight and importance about this book and
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Speaker 2: this book launch myself as well, because The Sapling Cage
1:01
Speaker 2: is the best thing I've written so far. I'm proud
1:03
Speaker 2: of all of my books, but by giving myself the
1:06
Speaker 2: larger canvas available to this long form, I've been able
1:08
Speaker 2: to start really saying some of the stuff I want
1:11
Speaker 2: to say during this one life I have. The Sapling
1:14
Speaker 2: Cage is a coming of age high fantasy story the
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Speaker 2: first in a trilogy. It's a crossover book, which is
1:21
Speaker 2: a genre developed by the publishing industry to acknowledge that
1:23
Speaker 2: a lot of readers of young adult books are regular
1:26
Speaker 2: adults and not young ones.
1:28
Speaker 1: Us.
1:29
Speaker 2: This genre exists to say, quote, yes, the protagonist is
1:32
Speaker 2: a teenager, but we won't hold ourselves to all the
1:35
Speaker 2: conventions of the young adult genre. Which isn't to say
1:39
Speaker 2: this book is more violent or explicit than other young
1:41
Speaker 2: adult books. It's not, but rather that I didn't have
1:44
Speaker 2: to limit myself to a specific emotional voice or treat
1:47
Speaker 2: them romance within it in some specific and formulaic way,
1:50
Speaker 2: which is important to me because I want to write
1:52
Speaker 2: honestly about the experiences of a trans teenaged witch. Yes,
1:57
Speaker 2: so that is what we are reading, and one day
1:59
Speaker 2: we do to have her on the show. She is
2:01
Speaker 2: quite busy, we understand, doing all those podcasts, writing all
2:05
Speaker 2: of these books, being as amazing as herself. She's been
2:08
Speaker 2: on tours and tours for her books as well. So
2:11
Speaker 2: one day, cross your fingers, it's gonna happen.
2:13
Speaker 1: We really do know, how, y'all.
2:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, we do, We really do know, how, y'all. Again,
2:20
Speaker 2: we do want to bring her back about the books
2:21
Speaker 2: and hopefully yeah, when the trilogies come out, maybe we
2:24
Speaker 2: can have a whole big conversation about all the books
2:26
Speaker 2: because they are amazing. But if you haven't read this
2:30
Speaker 2: book yet, I think we should stop you right here
2:34
Speaker 2: and tell you to go and buy her book. The
2:37
Speaker 2: Feminist Press is where I got my book, and stop,
2:41
Speaker 2: read it and then come back, because we're gonna give
2:43
Speaker 2: you some light spoilers. However, we're we're not. We're gonna
2:47
Speaker 2: change it up a little bit because we don't want
2:49
Speaker 2: to give it all away. It's too new. She deserves
2:54
Speaker 2: you to buy her book and hear it from her
2:55
Speaker 2: own mind instead of our summary. So we're gonna give
3:01
Speaker 2: very vague summary without the ending for this right, so
3:06
Speaker 2: that you, again read listeners can go and check this
3:09
Speaker 2: book out because it is an easy reader, right Annie.
3:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we again we've said this before. Sometimes we
3:17
Speaker 1: worry about page length because we have to read it,
3:21
Speaker 1: like I read it one day, right, So we were
3:26
Speaker 1: I was a little concerned about the length, but we
3:28
Speaker 1: really want to read it. I was really intrigued by
3:31
Speaker 1: the idea of it, and it went so quickly, and
3:35
Speaker 1: it was one of those things when you can. You're
3:37
Speaker 1: looking at the page numbers and you just know like, oh,
3:40
Speaker 1: this is not going to wrap up neatly, or it's
3:43
Speaker 1: going to be another one.
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Speaker 2: This feels like a beginning explanation is definitely like setting
3:47
Speaker 2: the scene for you and then it gets you in there. So, yes,
3:51
Speaker 2: this is the first novel of a trilogy. You know,
3:54
Speaker 2: we love trilogies here, we love them. And it's very
3:58
Speaker 2: dense and it's set up with the plot and many
4:01
Speaker 2: characters because it is a great coming of age story.
4:05
Speaker 2: It has like all these layers of identity, friendship, epic,
4:09
Speaker 2: magical battles, romance, There's a lot. So we're just going
4:14
Speaker 2: to highlight the plot again without giving you the complete ending,
4:17
Speaker 2: because again we think it's worth you taking the time
4:20
Speaker 2: to buy and read her book. So very very loose summary,
4:24
Speaker 2: I guess this is the way I'm going to put this.
4:26
Speaker 2: So we have Laurel, who is the main protagonist, a
4:29
Speaker 2: young girl in a boy's body. She knows who she
4:32
Speaker 2: is and is trying to navigate the world with her secret.
4:36
Speaker 2: Her best friend Lane has been promised to the Witches,
4:39
Speaker 2: which apparently is a thing, as her mother was known
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Speaker 2: as Leona who one of the Leona of the Leaves,
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Speaker 2: I believe, and she was a very famous witch. So
4:48
Speaker 2: therefore Lane was promised to her to become a witch.
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Speaker 2: But Lane doesn't want to be a witch. She wants
4:52
Speaker 2: to be a knight or something completely different. Solution, Laurel
4:56
Speaker 2: will take her place in hopes that she doesn't get caught.
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Speaker 2: She's always wanted to be a witch, She's had dreams
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Speaker 2: of it, She's been ready to be a witch, so
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Speaker 2: she's going to take her place. Laurel's mother, who is worried,
5:09
Speaker 2: is understanding. She's actually very supportive even though she's very worried,
5:13
Speaker 2: and Laurel sets off into her new journey. So yes,
5:17
Speaker 2: she comes out when the witch has come to get
5:19
Speaker 2: pick up Lane to say I am the chosen one,
5:23
Speaker 2: and she is. Laurela is joined then by another young
5:27
Speaker 2: one who has also been promised and named Hex, who
5:30
Speaker 2: did not want to be there and was forced to
5:32
Speaker 2: be there because she was also promised even though she
5:34
Speaker 2: didn't want to and unlike Wayne, didn't have a friend
5:38
Speaker 2: to take her place. So Hex is miserable and wants
5:41
Speaker 2: to make Laurel miserable as well. Then we meet a
5:45
Speaker 2: Rena also promised to be there, raised by Druid, and
5:48
Speaker 2: she quickly becomes friends with everyone, like everyone wants to
5:51
Speaker 2: be her friend. Laurel wants to be her friend, Hex
5:53
Speaker 2: wants to be her friend. There's a little competition that's
5:55
Speaker 2: going on. She seems really cool. But things in this
5:58
Speaker 2: world is brewing, are dying, Propaganda against witches have begun, children,
6:03
Speaker 2: and people are disappearing and dying. A fascist regime is
6:06
Speaker 2: taking control via a queen who has started a new
6:09
Speaker 2: branch of knights, the tax Knights, who are cruel and
6:12
Speaker 2: take things from the poor and regular citizens, really bad people.
6:16
Speaker 2: The witches have decided that they have to come together
6:19
Speaker 2: and oh, they have to kind of have a conversation
6:22
Speaker 2: about what to do because since they are there's all
6:24
Speaker 2: this propaganda against them. Do they fight against this fascist
6:27
Speaker 2: regime or do they fight against this wicked new thing
6:31
Speaker 2: which is killing the trees again, which is known as
6:33
Speaker 2: the blight. So they have to have this very big discussion.
6:37
Speaker 2: Their democracy more of a commune community socialist party, I
6:45
Speaker 2: guess is the way we probably would go. They have
6:47
Speaker 2: a very open conversation and have votes and really you know,
6:51
Speaker 2: go through the time. So that's the way just in
6:53
Speaker 2: trying to figure out what to do. World during this
6:55
Speaker 2: time is learning to battle physically and kind of magically,
6:58
Speaker 2: not quite yet, but she sees like she can see
7:00
Speaker 2: magic and she knows how it works, and she can
7:02
Speaker 2: figure out how to find the lay, which is what
7:04
Speaker 2: she sees as little magic, but more physically again, like
7:07
Speaker 2: she's learning to fight with axes and swords and all
7:09
Speaker 2: these things, and she's trying to learn to control her strength,
7:12
Speaker 2: because there are moments that she does realize she is stronger.
7:15
Speaker 2: But at the same time, she also doesn't want to
7:17
Speaker 2: hurt anything, hates it, HASTI all the while again trying
7:21
Speaker 2: to hide her secret, but slowly her coven all start
7:25
Speaker 2: to discover her secret. Everything happens. I was like, yeah,
7:27
Speaker 2: I don't think that could last long, right, No, And yeah,
7:30
Speaker 2: exactly how it went, but no one really cares. She's
7:34
Speaker 2: a witch, she's chosen to learn magic, and she's to
7:37
Speaker 2: them who she says she is. So it's quite beautiful.
7:40
Speaker 2: Of course, there's still kind of like a lot of
7:42
Speaker 2: confusion and conversations that has to be worked out for
7:44
Speaker 2: herself and the witches, but you know, they're all like, yeah,
7:47
Speaker 2: you're one of us. Of course you can see the lay.
7:49
Speaker 2: You're magical. Welcome. We also learned that there was another
7:53
Speaker 2: witch before Laurel who was also hiding that same secret,
7:57
Speaker 2: Dame Katkin, but had found a spell to make her
8:00
Speaker 2: as she was, but it also included using a bone
8:03
Speaker 2: from another person, and that person that helped her was there,
8:07
Speaker 2: but kat Can had actually disappeared. The Sourel was really
8:10
Speaker 2: big fighter for her. She actually didn't know the spell though,
8:13
Speaker 2: That's what she has to say. It's like, you know, yeah,
8:15
Speaker 2: we did this, and I love her all these things,
8:17
Speaker 2: and then she disappears and we don't know what happens.
8:20
Speaker 2: I have a feeling that's gonna be a later, later thing,
8:24
Speaker 2: you know, you know. So we find out that our
8:26
Speaker 2: witches who are using blight magic to make themselves more
8:29
Speaker 2: powerful and killing innocent people, the tax Knights are relentless
8:33
Speaker 2: and trying to come after anyone who would be against
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Speaker 2: the queen, including and especially the witches. Also we have
8:39
Speaker 2: again He's who's still there, has left the coven to
8:42
Speaker 2: be a knight, and she is now happier than ever,
8:45
Speaker 2: but her friend, a deity, is not happy, and she's
8:48
Speaker 2: very sad, and she's just miserable.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, there hex joins like the anti Knights. There's
8:56
Speaker 1: sort of like knights that left the knighthood to fight
9:01
Speaker 1: the Knights.
9:01
Speaker 2: Yes, essentially fight the fascists.
9:03
Speaker 1: This is kind of what it is that.
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Speaker 2: Kind of lasts remaining all the while we see more
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Speaker 2: and more trees dying. We have warm monsters wy r
9:14
Speaker 2: M an undergrad sea monster with eyes as well. We
9:21
Speaker 2: have all these different things, and then we have the
9:24
Speaker 2: whelps all fighting them and the Welps I didn't explain
9:26
Speaker 2: this earlier are the youngest of the witches, are the
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Speaker 2: newest witches who are learning to become witches, and all
9:31
Speaker 2: the become dames. They're called whelps at the beginning. They're
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Speaker 2: the ones that's doing all the adventure, you know what
9:38
Speaker 2: I'm saying, and finding a lot and discovering a lot
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Speaker 2: within this time. And during this time, two of them,
9:44
Speaker 2: including Deity, have figured out how to use this blight
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Speaker 2: magic to heal people and have done so. So that's
9:50
Speaker 2: something to think about. And by the way, it's used
9:52
Speaker 2: through saplings that are in skulls, in cages or that's
9:56
Speaker 2: where they're like maintained.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the power they're drawing up the lay.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that has a sapling as well as a new
10:05
Speaker 2: school as in like recently murdered person goal. And it
10:09
Speaker 2: comes with the costs though. So there's this hole back
10:11
Speaker 2: and forth when they are discovered that they had used
10:13
Speaker 2: as magic, they can't see the lay anymore and the
10:15
Speaker 2: Lay won't choose them. So it was all these things
10:17
Speaker 2: and we have Laurel here fighting for them. They can't
10:20
Speaker 2: be you know, they're trying to be excommunicated or being
10:23
Speaker 2: sent off, and they're like, no, we can help, and
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Speaker 2: they're still a part of our coven.
10:27
Speaker 1: Very sweet.
10:28
Speaker 2: Then we have this huge gathering of everyone due to
10:34
Speaker 2: the threat of the blight magic as well as the
10:36
Speaker 2: abusiveness of the Queen about what they're going to do
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Speaker 2: to fight against this evil and how to do it
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Speaker 2: and who will be in charge of who will do
10:43
Speaker 2: what and all these things. And it comes to the
10:45
Speaker 2: point that they have decided to allow the witches to
10:49
Speaker 2: stop the black magic first and then if that doesn't work,
10:52
Speaker 2: they'll go after the queen.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. A lot of politics at that part.
10:56
Speaker 2: A lot of politics back and forth, back and forth.
10:59
Speaker 2: And then we have world discovering some things, and then
11:02
Speaker 2: we have we do have a great ending with a
11:05
Speaker 2: kind of battle with the unexpected people to be the
11:09
Speaker 2: villains were expected. It's good to high wall you read
11:12
Speaker 2: into things and if you think about it too long,
11:14
Speaker 2: you know it kind of is. But then you have
11:16
Speaker 2: also a happily ever after with Laurel really figuring out
11:19
Speaker 2: who she was and who she is and who she
11:22
Speaker 2: always has been. Also a great little reunion between and
11:25
Speaker 2: Lane and Laurel really cute too. Yeah, well all of
11:29
Speaker 2: them all, Rna and Laurel become a couple. They're also
11:33
Speaker 2: very confused back and forth conversation. It's also very sweet.
11:36
Speaker 1: They're figuring things out.
11:37
Speaker 2: They're figuring it out. We have a feeling there's going
11:40
Speaker 2: to be things that need to be talked about. Yes, right, Okay,
11:45
Speaker 2: So that is my very vague, loose summary of this
11:51
Speaker 2: wonderful book The Sapling Cage, which again you should really
11:54
Speaker 2: take some time to read because these characters are fantastic
11:57
Speaker 2: and they're very sweet. Love the use of magic, and
12:01
Speaker 2: I love the way that Margaret has turned the character
12:05
Speaker 2: of the witches. It is something that is unexpected, which
12:08
Speaker 2: is not typical of what we know about witches.
12:12
Speaker 1: Yes, because I'm sure we'll talk about this more. But
12:15
Speaker 1: they have seen so much loss and so much persecution
12:20
Speaker 1: that they're very almost feral. They have to learn to fight,
12:26
Speaker 1: and so one of the things one of the witches
12:28
Speaker 1: says early on is about the power of threes, which
12:33
Speaker 1: I love because it's a trilogy, but it's the seasons
12:36
Speaker 1: of Summer, Fall, Spring, So I think that's how it's
12:42
Speaker 1: going to play out. Is this was learning the physical part.
12:46
Speaker 1: The next part will be the word part, which is
12:48
Speaker 1: the other tool of fighting that was described, and then
12:52
Speaker 1: the third part will be the magic part, because the
12:55
Speaker 1: spring is when the rebirth and the magic happens. That's
12:59
Speaker 1: just what I think. But yeah, it was cool because
13:02
Speaker 1: you got to see a lot of viewpoints and have
13:04
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about a disagreement, but like kind
13:08
Speaker 1: of a healthy disagreement most of the time, of like
13:11
Speaker 1: what should we do? What do we think about this?
13:14
Speaker 1: How should we move forward? But it was all undergirded
13:18
Speaker 1: by the fact that they've lost when there are five
13:21
Speaker 1: Kevins and there was one left and like stragglers of
13:24
Speaker 1: the others, right, and so having this, having sustained all
13:29
Speaker 1: that loss, having to keep in mind, how do we
13:33
Speaker 1: keep ourselves alive, but also this realm line, right, Yeah,
13:39
Speaker 1: it's really good and the imagery is amazing.
13:40
Speaker 2: I just.
13:42
Speaker 1: I love it.
13:43
Speaker 2: It is, it's very good. Yeah, So we're gonna talk
13:56
Speaker 2: about some themes, and I guess ideas within the book
13:59
Speaker 2: is it's not all in this themes. And I'm sure
14:01
Speaker 2: we'll have a lot more.
14:02
Speaker 1: To say.
14:04
Speaker 2: As what the trilogy comes about and as when Margaret
14:08
Speaker 2: comes out of the show. But one of the big
14:10
Speaker 2: things for sure is identity, whether it's like gender or
14:15
Speaker 2: sexual identity, all those things came into play. And here's
14:19
Speaker 2: a quote that I really actually these are three quotes
14:21
Speaker 2: that are from Laurel that I thought were like really
14:24
Speaker 2: sustained and like, yeah, this is what she's going through
14:26
Speaker 2: her thought process. She writes, one of my earliest memories
14:29
Speaker 2: was being glad that my name was Laurel, as common
14:32
Speaker 2: for girls as it was for boys. And you know,
14:34
Speaker 2: the whole idea of dead naming and then renaming themselves
14:38
Speaker 2: and rebirth is a big deal within every community. I've
14:41
Speaker 2: talked about my own name and trying to find my
14:43
Speaker 2: identity as a Korean person using my American name and
14:46
Speaker 2: all these things, and I know that's something that's a
14:49
Speaker 2: huge conversation and really important in being able to claim
14:53
Speaker 2: a name and filling home in a name really does
14:57
Speaker 2: bring a part of your identity, right. I thought that
15:00
Speaker 2: was really interesting. I was like, okay, from Jump this
15:02
Speaker 2: is by the way, yeah, chapter one, this is what
15:04
Speaker 2: we're reading from chapter one. And then she sayes on
15:07
Speaker 2: to say talking about how she is trying to navigate
15:11
Speaker 2: this world and knowing who she is but not necessarily
15:14
Speaker 2: accepted by everyone. She says those and she's talking about
15:17
Speaker 2: her mom and Lane are the only two people in
15:19
Speaker 2: town who I talked about how I should have been
15:21
Speaker 2: a girl, and like in this other conversation and understanding
15:24
Speaker 2: not everyone's going to understand, which is a shame, which
15:27
Speaker 2: is a shame. And then she talks about when she
15:30
Speaker 2: gets ready to be a part of the coven and
15:33
Speaker 2: Lane gives her her mother's clothes. She says, I took
15:37
Speaker 2: it and put it on, talking about a necklace. It
15:39
Speaker 2: hung just above the low neckline of the long dress.
15:42
Speaker 2: The stone cool and comforting against my chest. Despite how
15:47
Speaker 2: I was born, I was going to be a witch,
15:49
Speaker 2: despite how I was born, I was going to get
15:52
Speaker 2: to live as a woman. And it was such a
15:55
Speaker 2: beautiful scene of her being able to have her own
15:57
Speaker 2: dresses as hers and being able to really fully embrace
16:02
Speaker 2: who she's always been. I'm sweet.
16:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And at this point Lane wants to be
16:11
Speaker 1: a knight, and it is acceptable for women to be knights. However,
16:18
Speaker 1: it's not really acceptable on a large scale at least
16:24
Speaker 1: for men to be witches. So even though Laurel is
16:30
Speaker 1: a woman identifies this way, all of this has the
16:35
Speaker 1: fear of it. And it's really sweet to see her
16:38
Speaker 1: have this scene of like trying on the clothes and
16:40
Speaker 1: being so excited and like, yes, I finally get to
16:45
Speaker 1: do this right, and that gets to do what she
16:48
Speaker 1: wants to exactly.
16:49
Speaker 2: The fact that they're protecting each other is very, very precious,
16:52
Speaker 2: and the fact that they love each other for that
16:55
Speaker 2: and to help each other live each other's dreams, that's
16:58
Speaker 2: the part of that that's so And this is the
17:01
Speaker 2: part in which we she Laurel has a conversation because
17:05
Speaker 2: she finds out after the fact. Because she just wanted
17:08
Speaker 2: to be a witch so badly, she didn't think about
17:09
Speaker 2: it even if she was discovered, like, oh, there was
17:13
Speaker 2: another person who was like me, and they were able
17:15
Speaker 2: to change into becoming an actual and like bodily that way,
17:20
Speaker 2: and her trying to figure out is this what she wanted?
17:23
Speaker 2: Why would she want this? What does she want? And
17:25
Speaker 2: this is what she writes, all I knew is I
17:27
Speaker 2: wanted to be a witch. All I knew was I
17:30
Speaker 2: wanted people to let me be a woman, to call
17:32
Speaker 2: me a woman, to treat me like a woman. Anything
17:35
Speaker 2: about my body felt secondary. So in understanding that that's
17:39
Speaker 2: who she is and everything else, it's kind of just like, Okay,
17:44
Speaker 2: maybe this is what it seems like, but is it
17:47
Speaker 2: really who I am? No, she's talking about course like
17:51
Speaker 2: she's gotten injured. At this point. She's like, so, my
17:52
Speaker 2: biggest problem right now is I have a broken hand,
17:55
Speaker 2: which is like, yes, that's the bigger problem. But I
17:58
Speaker 2: think it's really interesting because she has conversation throughout the
18:01
Speaker 2: book because they are talking about whether or not the
18:03
Speaker 2: spell exists, who can do it, what is what the
18:05
Speaker 2: cost would be, and for somebody to sacrifice part of
18:09
Speaker 2: themselves for her, for her for this and also the
18:12
Speaker 2: fact that because we're gonna talk about relationships in a minute,
18:15
Speaker 2: but the fact that two people stepped up fighting over
18:19
Speaker 2: who would be the one to sacrifice themselves is really
18:22
Speaker 2: really precious.
18:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is, And I'm glad that conversation was
18:28
Speaker 1: in there, just her wrestling with what did she really want?
18:32
Speaker 1: Because at first she was so determined to get this
18:35
Speaker 1: spell and there was only like in theory two people
18:40
Speaker 1: that knew it, and one of them may be dead,
18:44
Speaker 1: like we don't know. But then kind of coming around
18:47
Speaker 1: to you like you know what, maybe I don't Maybe
18:50
Speaker 1: I don't need that. Yeah, maybe why.
18:52
Speaker 2: Am I wanting this? Why why do I Yeah, there's
18:55
Speaker 2: a lot to be said about that, about not liking yourselves,
18:57
Speaker 2: but also like it's interesting to see characters like Hex
19:01
Speaker 2: who also felt like she she needed to figure like
19:04
Speaker 2: she knew herself but she couldn't be herself and really
19:07
Speaker 2: hating that as well, like she's been predetermined to be
19:12
Speaker 2: a witch Hex, but she's like she's hating every bit
19:15
Speaker 2: of it and hated Laurel because she thought that Laurel
19:19
Speaker 2: was buying into it and not seeing the truth. And
19:22
Speaker 2: then in actuolity, she's like, oh I get it, you
19:24
Speaker 2: got a secret too, Like it was really interesting to see.
19:27
Speaker 2: I also want to talk about Aspen and his character
19:30
Speaker 2: because I was like, look at look at Margaret. Of
19:31
Speaker 2: course she does. Of course she need to bring in
19:34
Speaker 2: this asexual character who has to like also fit himself
19:37
Speaker 2: in the aspect of like, oh, I have to say
19:39
Speaker 2: it this way in order to be normal, quote unquote,
19:43
Speaker 2: because if not, they'll harass me. But I'm not interested
19:46
Speaker 2: in sex whatsoever. I'm not interested in men or women.
19:49
Speaker 2: I just want to be here.
19:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's both sad and kind
19:55
Speaker 1: of clever what he did, because basically they have these
19:57
Speaker 1: rules they make that they live by, and he made
19:59
Speaker 1: one that was like no relationships for me my head.
20:05
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, yeah sure.
20:10
Speaker 2: But he's also one of the most enjoyable characters I
20:12
Speaker 2: did really love, like Margaret putting in all these sarcastic
20:15
Speaker 2: notes in this fuck yeah almost like Waite, it doesn't
20:20
Speaker 2: fit in the realm necessarily of like this what seems
20:24
Speaker 2: like it should be an ancient tale, but I'm like.
20:28
Speaker 1: I enjoy this.
20:29
Speaker 2: And Espen was that character and that like he was
20:33
Speaker 2: just sarcastic all the time with the rock and be like, hey,
20:36
Speaker 2: like you said this, so I don't what you want,
20:38
Speaker 2: like just antagonizing people the entire time, which was quite entertaining.
20:46
Speaker 2: And then I think another big conversation in this, because
20:49
Speaker 2: we had it from Jump, is about choices, being able
20:52
Speaker 2: to choose for yourself your own destiny. We see it
20:54
Speaker 2: with Lane, we see it with Laurel, we see it
20:56
Speaker 2: with Hex, we see it with Deity. There's so many
21:00
Speaker 2: a conversation in trying to figure out how to get
21:03
Speaker 2: their own choices. And eventually, even though the Whelps were
21:08
Speaker 2: locked in in the end, a lot of the older witches,
21:12
Speaker 2: elder witches, were like, nah, you're free to choose. You
21:16
Speaker 2: chose this. At one point, we have a scene in
21:18
Speaker 2: which Laurel refuses to kill a fawn. I get it
21:23
Speaker 2: because she's like, you don't do that. They're innocent creatures.
21:26
Speaker 2: Why are you doing this? And because of her choice,
21:28
Speaker 2: they were without mate and they're like, you chose what
21:30
Speaker 2: you chose, and that's fine. We were good with that,
21:34
Speaker 2: even though she thought they were all get mad at
21:35
Speaker 2: her and that they she would be severely punished on
21:38
Speaker 2: all these things. But it became very clear that she's like, oh, yes,
21:43
Speaker 2: there are rules, but at the same time, there are
21:44
Speaker 2: allowances to be able to have free will in this moment,
21:49
Speaker 2: and here's a quote that I thought it was great.
21:51
Speaker 2: So this is after Hex decides to run away and
21:55
Speaker 2: she's allowed to run away to go join the Anti
21:58
Speaker 2: Knights Nights. Laurel says, you're going to change your name.
22:01
Speaker 2: I asked her. I figured your parents named you Hex
22:03
Speaker 2: because you were promised to the order, not going to
22:06
Speaker 2: change it, she said, I mean all my life, I've
22:08
Speaker 2: hidden my name because it meant I had to be
22:10
Speaker 2: a witch. But now I don't have to be. So
22:12
Speaker 2: it's a reminder of who I didn't have to be,
22:15
Speaker 2: who I got to choose to be. And I thought
22:17
Speaker 2: that was such an enlightening moment for all of them,
22:21
Speaker 2: and understanding that this is really important. Being able to
22:24
Speaker 2: choose your destiny and having some kind of autonomy is
22:29
Speaker 2: really important.
22:31
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think there are so many instances of
22:34
Speaker 1: that when it can kind of feel odd when you're
22:41
Speaker 1: like thinking about it, perhaps from our modern day standards
22:45
Speaker 1: of like these kids they're running around, but you know,
22:52
Speaker 1: it's very I think it's very fulfilling. And I like
22:55
Speaker 1: that a lot of times the kind of tour which
23:01
Speaker 1: is like laments, well just kind of like be like, okay,
23:06
Speaker 1: why think about like explain it to me I'm not
23:10
Speaker 1: going to stop you. I'm just curious. And then she
23:13
Speaker 1: goes on her way, right and I like that, or
23:17
Speaker 1: just like, think about your decision, but it's your decision.
23:20
Speaker 2: I mean, she really does just like I disagree with you,
23:22
Speaker 2: but okay you do you?
23:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much. She's often like all right, I'm not
23:28
Speaker 1: going to help you out, but good luck.
23:31
Speaker 2: I give you a warning. Good look at that. I also, yeah,
23:35
Speaker 2: did find really like part of this conversation in all
23:39
Speaker 2: of this is that they were they were respecting the
23:42
Speaker 2: younger as you were saying, in that giving them the
23:46
Speaker 2: option to have a part be part of the conversation
23:49
Speaker 2: being there. Like she's like, okay, you want to fight
23:51
Speaker 2: for data and the other one who what we see
23:55
Speaker 2: is wrong, they violated it and not only wrong, but
23:58
Speaker 2: it kind of means that they can't practice magic because
24:01
Speaker 2: of this. Then y'all need to figure out how to
24:03
Speaker 2: fix this. And she's like, we're holding you responsible, accountable
24:08
Speaker 2: and allowing you to do it. And they took up
24:10
Speaker 2: that accountability and responsibility and took off in that in
24:13
Speaker 2: that journey, even though it was very dangerous and you know,
24:16
Speaker 2: almost killed them in general. But then they discovered so
24:18
Speaker 2: many more things, but that that in itself felt like
24:22
Speaker 2: a conversation that we often have like the younger generations. Sure,
24:26
Speaker 2: we have to remember they're human. They're allowed to make choices,
24:29
Speaker 2: and they are able to take accountability and take responsibility,
24:32
Speaker 2: and oftentimes when you give them the right tools and resources,
24:36
Speaker 2: they really will do great.
24:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:41
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, And I say this for myself even because
24:44
Speaker 2: there's choices that I made as a kid. I'm like, God, damn, why.
24:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, gotta learn her not go because but at
24:53
Speaker 1: the same time, I was one of the more responsible
24:54
Speaker 1: ones in the teenage years.
24:56
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm just saying, you gotta eat. I
25:00
Speaker 2: let people learn and grow. It hurts, but it does
25:04
Speaker 2: give allow them for that choices, whether it's good or bad.
25:07
Speaker 2: And then, as we said, obviously relationships throughout in this thing,
25:11
Speaker 2: there's so many like we had the relationship again with
25:15
Speaker 2: Lene and Laurel, who was the purest form of like
25:17
Speaker 2: best friends and love that they are willing to do
25:21
Speaker 2: for each other and sacrifice for each other and help
25:23
Speaker 2: each other, as well as Daity and Hex again they
25:27
Speaker 2: were the best friends that hated everyone, but it really
25:30
Speaker 2: put them together. And at one point there was a
25:32
Speaker 2: question of like do you love her, and Dadi is like, yes,
25:35
Speaker 2: but she doesn't love me, and I don't care anymore,
25:37
Speaker 2: Like yeah, genuinely.
25:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was going through it.
25:44
Speaker 2: She was poor thing, and then you get you have
25:48
Speaker 2: the love between Laurel and Rnay again, the confusion, the
25:52
Speaker 2: kind of working things out for Rna herself, who was like,
25:55
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know. I'm confused, and you're this
25:58
Speaker 2: and now you're that, but you're this, like is this
26:00
Speaker 2: back and forth? And Laurel also feeling confused because it
26:03
Speaker 2: kind of felt like a betrayal, but at the same
26:05
Speaker 2: time she understood it.
26:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, I mean they kind of
26:13
Speaker 1: talked it through and Arena was like, you know, I've
26:17
Speaker 1: always been attracted to boys, and so I felt like
26:20
Speaker 1: when I found out this secret, then it made sense,
26:24
Speaker 1: but now it doesn't make sense because I know you
26:26
Speaker 1: and that's not who you are. So I'm just struggling
26:30
Speaker 1: with this. And Laurel understandably felt her, but also was like, no,
26:35
Speaker 1: I okay, I get it. But they kind of kept
26:38
Speaker 1: working through it, and I really appreciated that they were like, Okay.
26:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just oh, obviously something that they're gonna have
26:46
Speaker 2: talk about but that Rna was able to be like,
26:49
Speaker 2: IW will sacrifice abovee for you. Yes, if this is
26:52
Speaker 2: what you want, I will do this in a heartbeat.
26:55
Speaker 2: So she was ready. And that's in fact, the whole journeys,
26:57
Speaker 2: whenever they would go anywhere, she was right there with her.
26:59
Speaker 1: Yes.
27:00
Speaker 2: So all that, But then also again Dame Katkin and
27:03
Speaker 2: Dame Sorel, it's just a blip in that conversation. I
27:06
Speaker 2: have a feeling we're gonna get a deeper look possibly
27:11
Speaker 2: later down the road. But like I really because like
27:13
Speaker 2: she really stands up for Laurel in that private conversation
27:18
Speaker 2: among the elder witches, which again is like heartbreaking but
27:22
Speaker 2: you know, very realistic in that in that term, and
27:26
Speaker 2: they were having them back and forth, and Dame Sorel
27:28
Speaker 2: fighting tooth and nail in order to make sure everyone
27:31
Speaker 2: understood Laurel belonged there as well as Laurel is a
27:35
Speaker 2: woman who who's a young girl going into her womanhood
27:39
Speaker 2: just like everybody, all the other whelps. It was very
27:42
Speaker 2: sweet to see. But again I have a feeling we
27:44
Speaker 2: need to remember, Yeah, these names just saying and then
28:02
Speaker 2: we have the propaganda used by evil. I really wanted
28:05
Speaker 2: to put this in here because we know Margaret well
28:07
Speaker 2: enough to know that this is very pointed in this time.
28:12
Speaker 2: And yeah, the whole like killing and then making creating
28:15
Speaker 2: a mess and then blaming the witches for it because
28:17
Speaker 2: they know they are an easy scapegoat any marginalized community
28:21
Speaker 2: that it was able to be used from jump is easy,
28:26
Speaker 2: easy prey. And they have that with a queen, with
28:29
Speaker 2: other people who are seen as evil, and like they're like, Okay,
28:33
Speaker 2: this is what's happening. As well as the fact that
28:35
Speaker 2: we have those who are really excited about stepping on
28:41
Speaker 2: those who are already in a hard position, so like
28:44
Speaker 2: the villagers who are being over attacked and who are
28:46
Speaker 2: being run by like all the diseases, the blight that
28:49
Speaker 2: was happening, like it was they were the ones who
28:51
Speaker 2: were suffering the most because of this type of evil.
28:57
Speaker 2: I'm sure again because spoiler alert, the queen doesn't die.
29:04
Speaker 2: You should know this in the story.
29:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it is a trilogy.
29:10
Speaker 2: It is a trilogy, and she is a good politician,
29:13
Speaker 2: so it.
29:13
Speaker 1: Seems anyway, the wind blows, the politician goes. Yeah. Yeah,
29:22
Speaker 1: I mean it was very because when we first meet
29:27
Speaker 1: the witches and they come to collect Laurel. Like some
29:31
Speaker 1: of them are wounded, and it's because it's so dangerous
29:34
Speaker 1: just for them to exist and to travel, and because
29:38
Speaker 1: there has been all of this misinformation and disinformation spread
29:43
Speaker 1: about them, and like I said, they've been kind of
29:49
Speaker 1: widely decimated and they have to be careful who they
29:55
Speaker 1: trust and talk to. But it seemed like at least
29:58
Speaker 1: in the suffering village that they went to first, they
30:02
Speaker 1: were like which is just the the prior, and they
30:08
Speaker 1: were not into the nights at all.
30:12
Speaker 2: As as a thing that aside, note that I didn't
30:14
Speaker 2: mention in the story. But the more powerful the which
30:17
Speaker 2: the more I want to say grotesque, but monster like
30:21
Speaker 2: is how she describes it. They become, but they become
30:24
Speaker 2: more less like human and more like some other creatures.
30:27
Speaker 2: So some of them had like talents, I believe, and
30:30
Speaker 2: like ye had face of monsters. Some of them were
30:33
Speaker 2: like so pale and skinny. They looked like skin and bones,
30:37
Speaker 2: like they were someone was giant huge apparently like so
30:40
Speaker 2: the the even like their outer appearents would portray them
30:45
Speaker 2: to be the villains and these conversations when actually they're
30:48
Speaker 2: sacrificing their humanity to save humans.
30:52
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and I would I would also add in
30:55
Speaker 1: here there was an interesting say, we didn't really get
31:00
Speaker 1: to see too much of that. I think we'll come back.
31:03
Speaker 1: But another thing with you know, propaganda like this is
31:08
Speaker 1: the brature of information, and there's some kind of throwaway
31:12
Speaker 1: lines about like like for giants actually real Like there
31:17
Speaker 1: was a couple of things where I was like, so
31:19
Speaker 1: all this history got erased.
31:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, they became legends. Yeah, half the creatures that they encountered,
31:26
Speaker 2: they're like, well I didn't think they existed, but here
31:28
Speaker 2: they are.
31:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know where that's
31:32
Speaker 1: going to go, but I thought that was interesting because
31:33
Speaker 1: that is another key point in propaganda efforts like this.
31:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the fact that monsters and again they
31:40
Speaker 2: were able to talk to them and their demons, but
31:42
Speaker 2: yet they're made to be that way.
31:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
31:49
Speaker 2: Again kind of briefly talking about the unity they come
31:52
Speaker 2: through the fact that Laurel and the Wells were able
31:55
Speaker 2: to bring them all together, because it really was the
31:58
Speaker 2: fact that Lane and Laurel were friends and we were
32:00
Speaker 2: able to get that knighthood to come with them, as
32:04
Speaker 2: well as the fact that they knew Espen already with
32:06
Speaker 2: the anti knighthood coming in and bringing in people who
32:09
Speaker 2: they knew would be a part of that type of alliance.
32:13
Speaker 2: They come in and having a whole conversation which was
32:16
Speaker 2: very political and took forever, and they just went back
32:17
Speaker 2: and forth and back and forth and back and forth.
32:19
Speaker 2: I honestly was waiting for them to wanted them to
32:21
Speaker 2: be a betrayer for you.
32:25
Speaker 1: Uh, I don't think so.
32:27
Speaker 2: Oh no, I just assume one of them would have
32:33
Speaker 2: already been in leaks to they kind of were, but
32:35
Speaker 2: like even more so.
32:37
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, I mean we like we said trilogy, well, it.
32:42
Speaker 2: Was all shaky grounds. There was a lot of like yeah,
32:45
Speaker 2: back and forth, and the Witches talk a lot about
32:49
Speaker 2: having to back down and play the game essentially in
32:51
Speaker 2: order to get things done.
32:54
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and they I mean, there's certainly not a
32:57
Speaker 1: lot of trust there, but there was an understanding that
33:01
Speaker 1: this is a bad situation, right right, and we need
33:04
Speaker 1: to got to fix it. Yeah.
33:06
Speaker 2: Now, now some of the villagers were like that as well,
33:08
Speaker 2: like yeah, you know what, since you've been here, everything
33:11
Speaker 2: has been bad and we've been hearing all of these
33:13
Speaker 2: cells and that was the other part of the propaganda
33:15
Speaker 2: we didn't talk about was that it had been all
33:17
Speaker 2: around the lands that it was the witches and whiches
33:19
Speaker 2: are bad. The whiches are bad, even to the point
33:21
Speaker 2: that Laye, who wrote to Laurel, was saying, Hey, I
33:24
Speaker 2: don't believe them, but just so you know, stay away.
33:28
Speaker 2: You might want to run away because the witches are
33:30
Speaker 2: not going to be good in the soon. They are
33:31
Speaker 2: looking real bad right now. Yeah, So that's kind of
33:35
Speaker 2: part of that too, which we know happens a lot,
33:37
Speaker 2: the disinformation, misinformation. And then probably the last thing I'll
33:42
Speaker 2: hit on is life and death more death.
33:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:46
Speaker 2: In this conversation, and here's a quote, it says it
33:50
Speaker 2: was bizarre to realize that the most magical things in
33:52
Speaker 2: this world are also at their heart mundane and fragile,
33:56
Speaker 2: That a magical sapling can be uprooted, that a witch
34:00
Speaker 2: die with the sword in her chest the same as anyone, right,
34:03
Speaker 2: And they lost a lot of people. It seems actually
34:07
Speaker 2: like five witches.
34:10
Speaker 1: It's more than that, was it.
34:11
Speaker 2: That's all I could remember.
34:12
Speaker 1: It's more than that, But a lot of it are
34:14
Speaker 1: not people we know.
34:16
Speaker 2: Okay, where it like blips into the conversation. Well, like
34:20
Speaker 2: I said, there's a lot of death in this and
34:23
Speaker 2: that that kind of understanding.
34:25
Speaker 1: Uh.
34:25
Speaker 2: We have a moment when when Laurel is facing the
34:31
Speaker 2: sea monster and thinking that she's about to drown and
34:33
Speaker 2: that uh Arne is about to drown as well, and
34:36
Speaker 2: where there's a part where she thinks she's about to die,
34:39
Speaker 2: she's realizing who she is, truly who she is, and
34:42
Speaker 2: that she says, I don't want to die a boy.
34:45
Speaker 2: I don't want to die with people thinking this way
34:48
Speaker 2: because I am a woman. I'm a girl. And then
34:49
Speaker 2: she's talking about like who she's becoming and really really
34:52
Speaker 2: believing who she is and finding a place in this
34:55
Speaker 2: in this conversation of her body being as well as
35:00
Speaker 2: her heart, and it's kind of one of those moments
35:03
Speaker 2: that you realize, yes, you have so much to do,
35:06
Speaker 2: so obviously this is going to be a catalyst and
35:09
Speaker 2: this giant journey in battle and war that she knows
35:12
Speaker 2: she has stuff to finish.
35:15
Speaker 1: Yes, And it's also kind of going back to what
35:19
Speaker 1: you were talking about where she couldn't kill the fawn.
35:22
Speaker 1: They have a lesson. The Welps have a lesson later
35:25
Speaker 1: where one of the witches was like, you know, how
35:30
Speaker 1: do you if you're overwhelmed? But how do you go down?
35:33
Speaker 2: Like what do you do?
35:34
Speaker 1: And there was like you know, run away, and then
35:36
Speaker 1: somebody who was like baiting was like you goed out fighting, kicking, biting,
35:41
Speaker 1: scream like the whole thing, like we do not stop.
35:44
Speaker 1: And the Witch's like, yeah, we're we're we are. Numbers
35:46
Speaker 1: are so few, it's your responsibility almost to like fight
35:52
Speaker 1: as hard as you can. And that goes back also
35:55
Speaker 1: to the threes birth life, death, So death is a
36:01
Speaker 1: is a really big theme in here, and there's a
36:04
Speaker 1: lot of imagery around death, like bones and the skulls
36:10
Speaker 1: and things.
36:10
Speaker 2: Like as yeah, and I think too like with that,
36:15
Speaker 2: it's kind of that resurgence that the most powerful, which
36:18
Speaker 2: would be in the front and the welves will be
36:20
Speaker 2: the back, or sometimes the welves will not be present
36:22
Speaker 2: that like we need to save them. There's so many.
36:24
Speaker 2: And then when they are trying to like excommunicate two
36:27
Speaker 2: of the welbs, they're like we're all leaving and they're like, well,
36:30
Speaker 2: there's too few of us. We need these, we need
36:33
Speaker 2: these young ones, so we can't do that, so we'll
36:35
Speaker 2: figure it out essentially like they came again that you're
36:37
Speaker 2: not a part because they knew there were too few
36:40
Speaker 2: in number and need to grow with each other. So
36:46
Speaker 2: that is a very quick rundown of a really great
36:49
Speaker 2: long book that's a part of a trilogy which we're
36:51
Speaker 2: really excited for. And yes, I know you're probably a
36:56
Speaker 2: little bit like, but what happens? You need to go
36:58
Speaker 2: read the book.
37:02
Speaker 1: K y'all, go get the book. It's great and let
37:06
Speaker 1: us know your thoughts about it. Hopefully we'll have Margaret
37:11
Speaker 1: on to talk about the next one. I'm very excited
37:14
Speaker 1: to read it. Yes, Well, in the meantime, listeners, you
37:19
Speaker 1: can email us at Hello at Stuffwenever Told You dot com.
37:22
Speaker 1: You can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff
37:24
Speaker 1: podcast or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never
37:26
Speaker 1: Told You. We're us on YouTube and we have a
37:28
Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
37:30
Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, executive producer My
37:33
Speaker 1: and your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you
37:36
Speaker 1: for listening Stuff Never Told You. Instructure by heart Radio.
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