Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Peter Cuneo - Marvel’s Turnaround CEO, $4.5B Exit | The Navy Officer Who Saved Marvel

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Peter Cuneo - Marvel’s Turnaround CEO, $4.5B Exit | The Navy Officer Who Saved Marvel · Success Story with Scott Clary

• 0:00
  I think I was born with an adventurer gene. I had a history of Navy officers, my father, my uncle.
• 0:05
  So I went to the Navy and I got as a young person a lot of responsibility.
• 0:11
  And this is where I first really started to understand that I enjoyed leadership.
• 0:16
  He rebuilt Empire's others said we're dying. Peter Cunio doesn't just lead companies.
• 0:20
  He resurrects them from transforming Marvel into a global media powerhouse to scaling
• 0:25
  Iconics into a licensing giant. I didn't know anything about motion pictures of making them
• 0:30
  or comic books. When I did my research, I saw that the company had 4700 characters.
• 0:36
  We're valued at only $500 million. His leadership has been legendary. He's a turnaround
• 0:42
  architect, a strategist on the front lines, and a bold believer that businesses can and must
• 0:47
  reinvent themselves. We have a problem with over-parenting. Well-meaning parents think that
• 0:52
  their children should never have a negative thought about themselves. They don't realize
• 0:56
  it. We learn more about leadership than our successes. Lead a diverse life. You become
• 1:00
  wiser and you make better decisions when you've had diverse exposures to people.
• 1:15
  So the book is about leadership. Podcasts is about leadership. You've been studying these
• 1:20
  principles for 20 years. You have these 32 essential ideas around leadership.
• 1:25
  But principles are one thing. Understanding where they came from is something entirely different.
• 1:30
  So I know you said a lot about how Vietnam changed your relationship with risk.
• 1:36
  So was there ever a moment when you were serving, when you were on a destroyer where you actually
• 1:43
  had an experience that really changed or shaped your relationship with risk? Or was it just that
• 1:49
  period of your life? Well, actually, this is a very good question, Scott. I think there was an
• 1:55
  exact moment, which I could tell you a little about, that where I realized that I needed to
• 2:03
  have a life of leadership, or at least aspiring to leadership, trying to become a good leader.
• 2:11
  So this will take a little bit of time to tell, but I think it's worth it. So in the Vietnam war,
• 2:16
  I was a Navy officer on a guided missile destroyer. And then in the Navy at that point,
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  and it's probably still true today, you really have as an officer two jobs.
• 2:30
  First job is a functional job. So the first tour I did, I was a damaged control officer.
• 2:36
  The second tour I did, I was communications officer. But the other job that you have is
• 2:42
  what is simply a ship driving job. You need to be ultimately qualified to what's called the officer
• 2:50
  of the deck, because the captain does not, you know, this is not like you see a lot of movies at
• 2:56
  the age of sale where the captain is yelling commands to the, to the, you know, engine order
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  telegraph for speed or the helm for which direction. Now captain is way too busy, whether it's
• 3:09
  peacetime or wartime to be doing that. So you have people officers who are highly qualified
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  and they're called officer of the deck. And you get qualified only by practicing over a period
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  of years, which I had been doing. But I was now a qualified officer of the deck. So I am driving
• 3:30
  the ship. It's two o'clock in the afternoon to lovely day, nice sunny little breeze, and the ships
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  mission, which we did quite a bit of on this particular day is called plane guarding.
• 3:44
  So when Navy aircraft carriers want to launch and or recover aircraft, they want to have a
• 3:50
  destroyer one nautical mile in front and one nautical mile and back. A nautical mile is 2,000 yards.
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  And basically the destroyers, including mine, were playing lifeguard duty. The toughest time
• 4:04
  for Navy pilots was actually landing on an aircraft carrier. It's the most dangerous time.
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  And if they had been hit over North Vietnam, they were limping back trying desperately
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  to get to the carrier and not go down either on land or in the ocean. So you're there to provide
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  lifeguard duty. In between recovering and launching aircraft, the three ships to destroyers and the
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  carrier kind of just drift around going very slowly at random.
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  But when they're ready to wreak, in this case, I'm going to tell a recover aircraft,
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  they will call each ship over cryptid, encrypted voicemail and tell us what to do. So my ship's
• 4:51
  coal sign was fleet fox. And so I am now the most of the deck. It's very calm right now,
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  but we get a message. Fleet fox takes station and describes, you know, wants us to go behind the
• 5:08
  carrier. And the carrier also tells you where it's turning in. It wants to go into the wind.
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  So we'll tell you what course it's taking because you get maximum lift to the aircraft whether they
• 5:20
  are landing or taking off by going into the wind. And also they're usually at flank speed,
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  which is top speed, which on those carriers could be 35 miles an hour, believe it or not,
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  those giant warships. And so if you had a 20 mile an hour wind, there's 45 mile an hour wind
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  when you throw the planes off or when they're landing. So there's a lot of lift because they
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  landed typically 90 to 100 miles an hour. So we, I quickly do a little calculation. It's a relative
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  motion. Oh, the captain, the carriers here, they're going to go in this direction at this speed for me
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  to get the fastest way for me to get behind us to go at my flank speed, roughly the same speed 35
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  miles an hour and then what direction. And so I'm doing that. And I suddenly realized that the
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  carrier is coming right at us. Their new course and speed is directly at us. Now we are like three
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  miles away. So there's no danger. I don't want to mislead you of having a collision because I can get
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  out of the way very easily. But I need to get behind the carrier and I'm in front of the carrier.
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  So I'm yelling commands on not on the wing of the bridge in the wind with the door open to the
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  bridge yelling commands to the engine order telegraph, which is all ahead flank, which is top speed.
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  And what course I want the helmsman to take. And I see that I'm going to pass what we call an
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  Navy close aboard to another ship. In this case, the carrier. They're going to be going exactly one
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  way. I'm going in exactly the opposite direction. And we are port to port. So in the Navy, the left
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  the left side is the port side, the starboard side is the right side. So we're passing port to port
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  close aboard. And when I say close aboard, it's it's a hundred yards apart, which seems like a lot
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  when you're playing football, but actually two big ships. It could be a disaster if you hit.
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  So I'm going by the carrier. Very important to get in our assigned position as soon as possible.
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  Could be a matter of life and death. We really don't know. We don't know what condition the pilots
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  are like coming back to land from a mission. And so we're flying by and understand that
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  we're at 70 miles an hour relative motion, going in opposite directions.
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  So to pass the carrier only takes eight seconds at 70 miles an hour.
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  So I'm already anticipating I have to get behind. So I'm starting to turn
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  to the port, my ship, even when I haven't passed the carrier yet because they because they're
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  going to be past us, you know, when I get around. One of the things though about Navy ships,
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  particularly big ones, is that when you put the helm over, put the rudder over,
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  those ships continue to skid for a while in the same direction that they were headed,
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  because the mass of these ships is so large. This isn't like driving an automobile,
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  you turn the wheel and you turn right away. And you practice understanding as the officer of the
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  deck, you know, went to give an order knowing you're going to continue to skid. So I'm actually
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  giving the order to turn. It feels like into the carrier, but it's not because I know they're
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  going to be past beforehand. And I'm judging the skid. If you've ever, Scott, if you've ever driven
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  a car, sure you have in snow and you come to a corner, come to a corner and you're not even going
• 9:18
  fast. You know, you're very careful and you start to make a turn to the left and the car,
• 9:24
  the wheels go over, but the car continues to skid in the same direction we're going. That's
• 9:30
  the way the Navy ships behave, the big ones. So I'm starting to turn and I also realize that
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  my turning radius with full rudder from my ship is going to be, is too large for me to get right
• 9:49
  behind the carrier. I'm coming left now. Okay, I'm going to be on the other side of the carrier,
• 9:55
  which is not where I want to be, but I have a trick up my sleeve that good authors of the decks all
• 10:01
  have this trick. I have a twin screwed guided missile destroyer. We have two propellers
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  so that if I actually back down my port propeller, my port, because it would say screw,
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  it's actually going backwards, full backwards, when I started right side propellers going ahead,
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  my speed full, it will twist the ship even tighter than the normal turn.
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  And so I'm trying to manage that as well. The ship shakes when you have those two forces on the
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  propellers. The ship actually shakes a little. And I'm trying to get in position.
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  Most stories short, call me good or just call me lucky or a little of both. I hit the spot perfect.
• 10:52
  And I'm I I steady up right behind the carrier 2000 yards. And just as I steady up, the first
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  plane comes right over the ship. And remember they're very low at this point. You think a mile away
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  is pretty high. It's not for for a great and this happened to be the F4 Phantom E class,
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  which is one of the great Navy and Air Force planes ever built both fighters and bombers. And so
• 11:22
  just comes in over over the top of the ship. I hear the wine obviously the jet going by.
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  And I'm feeling wound up needless to say. And but I'm feeling I'm feeling good because we we made
• 11:38
  our mark just in time. Luckily that day there were no planes going in the water. So that was not a part
• 11:44
  of this. So the captain is very busy, but he's watching the carrier and what have you. And I see the
• 11:53
  carrier is flashing us a message. You may have seen old movies where Navy ships communicate by
• 12:01
  Morse code you with a flashing light. And I don't think they do that anymore unless they're really
• 12:07
  in trouble, but back then that was common way that you communicated from a ship to ship kind of
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  situation. And so I said to the captain because I'm still watching to make sure I'm in perfect
• 12:20
  position, adjusting a little bit tiny adjustments in the speed course of my ship. And I said to the
• 12:29
  captain, captain, what was the message? And the captain says to me, Cuniel, it was for you from
• 12:36
  their captain. And I'm like, what? The captain of the carrier is sending me a junior officer 25
• 12:44
  years old, a personal message. And he said, yes, for you, what was it? He said, Cuniel, it was
• 12:55
  Bravo Zulu, BZ in the Navy. BZ means well done. Now I am on a natural high. I don't know if I
• 13:07
  really wish on all of your audience that they at some point in their lives maybe multiple times
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  experience a natural high. It comes from feeling so good, you can barely breathe. And so I am,
• 13:22
  well, what is going on here? I'm this young guy. I'm at sea. I've got 300 sailors, 20 officers
• 13:29
  on my ship that they're depending on me right now. And it's tremendous responsibility for a young
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  person. In wartime, all of the armed forces have a lot of junior officers and they do give them
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  an amazing amount of responsibility for being so young. And so my feet are full of the ground.
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  I'm floating in my, I'm so wound up feeling so great. And it's at that moment, it occurs to me,
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  Scott, that I need a life like this, a leadership, doing things that support other people,
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  bringing together, doing my part of something really big. And that's the exact moment it hit me.
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  Now I have to say there's a little finish to the story because it didn't occur to me till five or
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  ten years later. That of course, the captain of the other carrier was not saying to me personally,
• 14:30
  good, good job. He was probably sent it to our captain. Captain to captain would be normal. But
• 14:36
  my captain, who was by the way a great leader, someone I admired, revered so much, shows to make
• 14:47
  me feel good by telling me the message wasn't to him, it was to me personally. Now I'll never know
• 14:54
  for sure. But either way, you know, I am, I was just, you know, I just floating, I swear, if I look
• 15:05
  down, I think my feet were a foot off the ground. So that's the moment, long story I know. But
• 15:10
  no, no, I love the extra detail so that you can, I think appreciate a lot better.
• 15:17
  First of all, I actually think what the captain did is the sign of what a good leader should do.
• 15:21
  Totally agree, totally agree. So when I figured out he probably, that's what he did when I was
• 15:27
  a so full of myself, you know, I thought about it for 10 seconds until my God, what a great leader
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  to do that. Because it really, you know, it really lifted me up. I wanted to stay in the Navy
• 15:42
  to make it a career. I was not anapolis. I went to also candidate school in four months,
• 15:47
  your officer. And when I had done well in the Navy and the Navy offered me a regular commission,
• 15:53
  like people from anapolis, one was my time to get out, which was after about three and a half years.
• 15:59
  And I didn't stay in because my wife, who I just been married only nine months,
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  had figured out talking to the lives of other officers on the ship when we were in port,
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  that I was going to be, if I made it a career, I was going to be at sea six months a year,
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  and she's going to raise our kids. We didn't have any kids at that point.
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  Raise our kids alone, and she wasn't up for that. And I, well, I love the Navy, but I loved her more.
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  And I will say it's 55 years later, and we are two days short of my 55th anniversary.
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  And so one day, so I want to say about 10 years into my career,
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  I had, my boss came to me and said, Peter, I want you to take over the international division of
• 16:48
  our organization, which is in trouble. And so I was thrown into, I was, I was living in working
• 16:58
  in New York City, was really thrown into with no prior warning, my first turnaround. And to be
• 17:08
  honest, the first six months, I was depressed. I thought, Turner, I don't know anything about
• 17:13
  turnarounds. I don't, I don't have any skills that I know of. I don't, you know, I don't know how
• 17:22
  this is going to turn out. But after six months, we started getting results. And I started to
• 17:27
  understand that turnarounds that are successful are all about leadership. Congratulations.
• 17:34
  That's amazing. Thank you. I'm just thinking about that story.
• 17:37
  What, what makes, because you were, I didn't realize when I was reading, when I was reading a little
• 17:44
  bit about your time in the Navy, I didn't realize how young you are. But now when you actually,
• 17:50
  when you actually place the Vietnam War, that actually makes a lot of sense. So you're 25 years old,
• 17:55
  and you're dealing with all this responsibility. Do you feel like that's something that,
• 18:00
  like, like leadership and responsibility, and you probably, you probably now see it with people
• 18:09
  that you hire in your organizations and your companies. Is that something that you're born with,
• 18:13
  or is that something that you just have to learn as you go? Like, is there anything that prepared
• 18:19
  you for that moment? I know that it wasn't like the most stressful combat situation, like some
• 18:25
  people have dealt with, but still it's like a 25 years old. You mentioned the amount of people on
• 18:30
  your ship. It could have been a life or death with the pilots coming back. There's a lot of things
• 18:35
  you could have screwed up to be quite honest when you're doing those maneuvers with a very large ship.
• 18:41
  Like, what prepares somebody to act cool and do good work in those high pressure situations when
• 18:48
  they haven't ever done them before? So I'm a very firm believer that leaders are never born.
• 18:55
  They're always made. Yes, you can be born with a certain amount of intelligence and certain
• 19:01
  things that are precursors, if you will, to learning leadership. They're certainly helpful,
• 19:08
  but I always cringe when I hear someone say he or she is a born leader because there aren't,
• 19:14
  I've never met any. So you learn leadership throughout your life primarily by face-to-face
• 19:23
  interactions, personally, professionally, with the diversity of other people.
• 19:30
  And with another way to learn leadership is geographical diversity, seeing other worlds, seeing other
• 19:37
  cultures, you know, what have you, is also very important. And that's how you learn the instincts.
• 19:45
  You're not born with the instinct. You learn the instinct of how to work with other people,
• 19:52
  how to motivate them, how to get them excited about what they do. And it's a process. And it
• 20:00
  doesn't happen right away. In my speeches about leadership, I often say to the audience,
• 20:08
  you can start learning leadership at age five. Your kids, your grandchildren, whatever can start
• 20:16
  at age five. And the audience typically goes, I can see them shaking their heads no way.
• 20:22
  You know, there's 200 people in the audience. No. You know, my child doesn't even know what
• 20:28
  leadership means. I've never heard the word. So I tell a story. And when I'm done, I have to say,
• 20:36
  I think most of the audience is going, you're right. Take your five-year-old for a week's vacation
• 20:43
  in Europe. Go to a country that doesn't speak English. And here's the emotional reaction
• 20:51
  from your child when they come back. Emotional reaction is, we went to this place. I can't
• 20:59
  remember the name. You know, I didn't understand anything anyone said. The food was different,
• 21:08
  but I liked it. Mom, Dad, where are we going next year? Great leaders are very good at being thrown
• 21:16
  into alien environments. Sometimes they move to an alien environment by their own decision-making.
• 21:24
  Sometimes this is something unexpected that does that. You could work in New York and take a
• 21:31
  job in London. Well, you're moving to an alien environment. I don't mean bad. I mean different.
• 21:38
  Okay. But you chose to do that. That's cool. Okay. Sometimes, unfortunately, business problems,
• 21:44
  problems with any leadership who can be in business or not, you can be leading any type of organization.
• 21:50
  There'll be things that come out of the blue that you didn't know about our big surprises,
• 21:56
  probably negative. And you've got a cope and great leaders actually run at problems, run at those
• 22:03
  situations. So by a five-year-old starting to travel, if you won't, and I say to people, if you
• 22:09
  cannot afford to go to Europe, I understand, go to Quebec. If you can't afford Quebec, go to
• 22:17
  West Virginia. Okay. It's a different environment. Okay. And so that's the key. Get kids started on
• 22:25
  being comfortable in these indifferent worlds from the world they live in most days. And actually
• 22:32
  looking forward to it, being excited about it. So, but learning leadership, it's all about face to
• 22:39
  face. Yes, you can learn some things from me listening to me talk. Yes, I think that's I do it
• 22:45
  because I think that can happen. But your most of your learning is going to be dealing with other
• 22:52
  people, good events, problems, bad events, your failures, your successes, all of these count,
• 23:01
  taking risks. You have to take risks to be a good leader. It's impossible. Leadership is synonymous
• 23:07
  with change. And whether you do what I do, which is turn arounds, with very extreme situations,
• 23:15
  companies and really in big trouble. Or just some you're in a great organization. You just have
• 23:22
  to make some small speed adjustments because things are going quite well. It's still change.
• 23:29
  And you have to be comfortable with change. Most people don't aspire to leadership because they're
• 23:35
  afraid that they don't want to upset other human beings. And they know instinctively that
• 23:42
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  you know, when you describe leadership, I've always thought of curiosity as like a good trait
• 28:30
  for anybody wants to be successful, but I've never actually tied curiosity to leadership.
• 28:35
  But what you're what you're speaking about with throwing people into new situations even at a
• 28:39
  young age telling them to go visit new environments overseas, new language, new culture, different
• 28:46
  part of the US, different part of North America. All of it is about curiosity mixed in with like
• 28:51
  a little bit of empathy. And when you have when you understand these traits very, very well,
• 28:56
  then I think it becomes a lot easier to throw yourself into this new environment that
• 29:02
  you don't understand at all and and thrive in it, not just sort of go into a new environment
• 29:08
  and maintain the status quo, but truly go into a new environment and not dominate but just
• 29:16
  excel in it. I think you do need to be curious and empathetic to do that. And you're sort of
• 29:20
  what you're talking about with kids is you're sort of training these traits early on.
• 29:25
  I agree. So my parents were such that I was, they never said the words you need to be curious.
• 29:32
  They just encouraged me to be curious. Anything I asked about, I'll go get a book, read more,
• 29:39
  or why don't you try out for this club in high school or wide range of different things,
• 29:46
  but I was always encouraged to follow my interests. We have a problem today with young people not
• 29:54
  learning leadership. There are two big reasons. One is just what I talked about. You need face-to-face
• 30:00
  experiences with other people. And today, because of technology and because of this,
• 30:08
  they don't get it. Okay, it's harder and harder. I do have a list of 15 things on petercunio.com
• 30:16
  that I recommend for young people with the learn leadership. And most of them have to do with face-to-face
• 30:22
  different types of experiences face-to-face. But I also say, you know, encourage young people to
• 30:31
  become expert at something. This is the other thing because human beings, even at a young age,
• 30:39
  when they have greater knowledge about a certain subject than most other people, it makes them one
• 30:45
  feel like they have a little power and two feel good about it. And so that's that's again
• 30:51
  being inquisitive. So your five-year-old, let's go back to the five-year-old, may know more about
• 30:57
  dinosaurs than you do. And that's great. If they like dinosaurs, encourage them to learn a little bit
• 31:03
  more about dinosaurs or whatever. It's okay, it could be something very simplistic. You know,
• 31:11
  and reward them for that with praise. You know, the other problem we have with young people not
• 31:19
  learning leadership is we have over parenting. And this is a problem where parents are not teaching
• 31:25
  their kids to be inquisitive, the opposite. They're teaching them not to take risks. Okay, and they are,
• 31:35
  it's called gentle parenting. There are lots of names for this. But basically, well-meaning parents
• 31:42
  want their, unfortunately, want their kids never to have a negative thought about themselves
• 31:48
  till they go out in the real world after college, let's say. So whatever goes on, it's not their
• 31:54
  fault, they're wonderful. They had graded in school, teachers' fault, didn't make the elite,
• 31:59
  football team, it's the coach's fault, whatever. And when these kids could not be leaders,
• 32:06
  they'd never learned the instincts of leaders. And when they first go out in the world, I hear from
• 32:12
  a lot of sea-sweet executives really horrifying stories about the lack of performance by young
• 32:20
  people now, including highly educated, well-educated children, kids, they're not the young adults.
• 32:27
  And lack of social skills, lack of no work ethic. I think I'll quit today, but don't even tell
• 32:36
  anyone. Or you don't want, you don't take a vacation day today, not going to show up, don't tell
• 32:40
  anyone. And they are not, because of the way they are over-parented, they're not thin-skinned,
• 32:49
  they have no skin, no skin. So when something goes wrong, the slightest thing that
• 32:56
  Scott, you and I would probably laugh at, they're devastated. It runs their whole day, it runs
• 33:01
  their whole, it's amazing, it's very sad, it's not their fault, I'm not blaming the young kids
• 33:07
  at all, not at all, it's how their parents did, how they grow up. That's where you look.
• 33:13
  But this comes from, this is not just an issue with young kids, I think that in general,
• 33:18
  I see people not wanting to be curious and not wanting to think outside of their worldview
• 33:28
  more often than never before. And I think that's just a toxic cultural phenomenon that's,
• 33:33
  unfortunately, the kids are a recipient of. I think it's toxic across the board. Now, of course,
• 33:39
  it's going to affect a kid at a younger age, much more seriously, when they don't have curiosity,
• 33:44
  they don't have critical thinking, they don't understand a world outside of their own.
• 33:47
  That's going to impact their career, that's going to impact their life. But it just seems like,
• 33:53
  I don't know, it just seems like across the board regression in terms of how we act and how we
• 33:57
  communicate. I think it actually started with COVID when everybody was like isolated in their
• 34:01
  bubbles and there was no more human to human face to face interaction. I think that definitely
• 34:06
  didn't help. But I don't think we've, I don't think we've bounced back to the society that we were
• 34:10
  pre-COVID, where people were empathetic and curious and wanting to be leaders and wanting to
• 34:17
  learn things that they didn't know and didn't understand. I don't think that we're there yet.
• 34:21
  Oh, I agree with you 100%. But again, it's going to be up to parents, grandparents,
• 34:28
  friends, mentors to fill the gap. Some will make it. And by the way,
• 34:34
  ones that come out, young people as, as quality leaders, are going to crush it,
• 34:38
  they're going to have very little competition and, and so on. Yeah, I, I think it's, it's a real
• 34:46
  challenge. We, we don't, you know, one of the things I, I noticed a lot is a big topic for
• 34:56
  organization I'm involved with, which is the National Archives Foundation. So the National Archives
• 35:03
  keeps all the records of the US government from day one, 22 billion documents.
• 35:10
  And I've been on the board now. I think this is my 16th year. I really love history.
• 35:15
  One of the things I recommend again on PeterCunio.com on my list of 15 things is study history.
• 35:22
  Because I do think that the past is prologue. And I do think you can learn a lot about human
• 35:27
  behavior by studying history and study our heroes. You're going to find out that heroes are not
• 35:34
  perfect. No human being is perfect. And while they did great things and they are very
• 35:41
  appropriately our heroes, they didn't do everything right. And, and they made their share of
• 35:48
  mistakes. So studying history, I really recommend to people. One of the things that concerns us on
• 35:55
  the board is that schools don't teach civics anymore. We have civics being how our federal government,
• 36:04
  state governments, and even local governments are organized. How they work. And so we have people
• 36:10
  in voting age voting with no sense. I didn't realize they stopped though. I took civics when I was
• 36:17
  in high school. Well, you're probably in the last year. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm telling you
• 36:22
  that we don't teach civics anymore. It's really troubling. And we're putting together programs to
• 36:29
  help rectify that. But that's another one that may never get fully rectified. And I think,
• 36:36
  yeah, so, so we have young people voting and they couldn't tell you who or why they're voting for
• 36:45
  necessarily because they don't know what the parties stand for really. They know what social media
• 36:51
  says. But most of that is inaccurate as we all know. They don't know enough not to
• 36:57
  to take social media. They don't know enough to take social media as with grain of salt.
• 37:04
  So then, so I don't know if you have an opinion on this. And I I'm just curious because
• 37:11
  you have strong beliefs around it. And your beliefs are very similar to mine.
• 37:17
  I don't know what the solution is. That's that's the quite like I don't know what the solution is
• 37:20
  because I think I think the actual solution is people have to be self-taught individuals. People
• 37:26
  have to be curious. People have to want to learn. But they also have to have the ability to understand
• 37:33
  if the information that they're learning is accurate or not. So it's a lot. Like the burden of
• 37:39
  education, it rested in institutions. Now I don't know if people even believe in traditional
• 37:46
  education the way they used to. I mean, I think there's I think people are now very focused on
• 37:52
  self-education and learning from their favorite, you know, thought leader on on social media.
• 37:58
  What's the solution to all of this? Like how do we how do we help kids get the right education to
• 38:05
  make smart decisions to be good leaders to be good human beings when they don't trust traditional
• 38:11
  institution or there's so much influence from social media. Like how do you set your kid up for
• 38:17
  success in 2025? I think it's doable. I certainly meet kids that are the exception and they're very
• 38:25
  impressive. And when I really get into them and you know, I have a podcast I've done two seasons,
• 38:31
  just finished season two. I interview people who names you may know, you may not know, but who are
• 38:38
  proven terrific leaders. And they talk about, you know, about their adventures, their failures,
• 38:45
  their successes. One of the things I ask all of them about though is their childhood. And when
• 38:51
  you hear some of their stories, how diverse their childhood was. One person I interviewed grew up in
• 38:58
  a camper, you know, with five of the children, brothers and sisters as an example. And another one
• 39:10
  had a paper route. And instead of just throwing the papers on the stoop when he went around,
• 39:15
  he actually rang the bell of every house and handed the paper to the people just he didn't know why
• 39:22
  he did it. But he was he was learning about human nature already based on the reaction from all
• 39:30
  these people in the neighborhood, you know, when he was handing them their paper. And he you know,
• 39:37
  credited a lot of his success started with that experience. So you really you really hear a lot
• 39:45
  when you talk to people about how they were grown up. And when I interviewed people,
• 39:50
  I always want to hear about how they grew up. What they, you know, they have adventures,
• 39:55
  have that diversity. You know, what was their life really like? Was it all planned out completely
• 40:01
  by their parents? Those, those people typically don't get passed the interview with me.
• 40:08
  I need people who have gained confidence in themselves. Okay, by getting out there and trying to,
• 40:17
  I would leave you with this thought for young people, however it gets done, young people have to
• 40:22
  learn their strengths and their weaknesses. They are not learning those today. Okay. And their strengths
• 40:29
  are their strengths, their weaknesses. They can avoid or work to get better. You know, it's it's
• 40:36
  it just depends on the situation. But you know, listen, I know this will shock you, but I certainly
• 40:43
  have a list of weaknesses I get taught to you. Learned in some cases to work to get better. In
• 40:50
  some cases, I can't get better. I just have to avoid. And so, and that goes on through life. I
• 40:57
  don't think it's just young people. You know, you're learning, well, I'm still learning. Let me
• 41:02
  really. And, and I enjoy it. One of the challenges I have right now is actually understanding the
• 41:10
  latest generations and how they think and what they value. And we've just been talking about this.
• 41:15
  And I, I can be critical, but that doesn't help anything. We have to find a way. And I interviewed
• 41:24
  recently, Patrice Gordon, who's in London. And she is a big proponent of what's called reverse
• 41:34
  mentoring. And I was really taken aback by this. I didn't ever heard of reverse mentoring. It's
• 41:40
  basically the, you know, the, the employees are educating the bosses. And how to do it. And, you
• 41:48
  know, she's, she's been very successful at it. And, and how you would set that up. And so on. And
• 41:54
  this, you know, and if it works, the whole organization is much, much more happy and much more
• 42:00
  efficient. So there are things that the, that the bosses can learn from young people. I think that's,
• 42:10
  I think that what you're saying is very wise. So what you're telling, what you're telling people
• 42:17
  who are a little bit younger, who are trying to figure out how to navigate the world. Like some of
• 42:22
  the people that you've had on your podcast, they have built real companies. They've had real success.
• 42:27
  They're not just the flashiest person on social media. They're people that have the track record.
• 42:32
  Those are the people that you actually pay attention to and learn their stories and understand how
• 42:36
  they leaned into adversity. How they started to learn about leadership. How they sort of structured
• 42:43
  the wrong career. Those are the people that find, you know, there's a lot of noise online,
• 42:48
  but those are the people you actually learn from. Yeah, and I think with all of this to talk about
• 42:54
  the media, the media has a lot to be blamed for. And I'm talking about, I know that. I'm talking
• 43:02
  about all media, because the way media makes money is to give you little tidbits on a particular
• 43:09
  subject with a, you know, in some cases, a totally misleading headline. No one is ever encouraged
• 43:18
  to go deep on a subject. In fact, half the time the headline tells you what the whole thing is,
• 43:24
  except it uses crazy words that don't fit the situation at all. And we all know the words,
• 43:32
  stunning, jaw dropping, you know, on and on and on and on, chaotic, all these words which
• 43:39
  actually don't apply, but you see them in the headline. And the media does this simply because
• 43:45
  that's how they make money. It's how they attract advertising. But unfortunately, our culture is a,
• 43:52
  is a 30 second, you know, info blast on any subject. And that's it. And you and the viewer or the
• 44:04
  listener has no idea if what they're hearing is accurate or not. And a lot of it is inaccurate.
• 44:12
  Of course. And they don't realize that they're just, they're basically just part of the monetization
• 44:16
  strategy. That's it. So one last one last thought on this. And then we'll switch gears. But if
• 44:24
  somebody who's listening to this who's 25 years old, they want to be a leader, they want to stand out.
• 44:30
  They grew up comfortable. They never faced real hardship. What should they do this week,
• 44:35
  this month right now, to better position themselves for the type of person that you think they need
• 44:40
  to be and they should be. Honestly, it's going to sound very self-serving. Go to petercunio.com
• 44:47
  and look at my list of 15 things I recommend for young people. And I'm defining young as 30 and under
• 44:54
  in this case. And they're all, most of them have to do face-to-face interaction with teams. So,
• 45:01
  for example, no one would be surprised. I highly recommend team sports.
• 45:06
  Now, you could be the worst person on the team. That's okay. Doesn't matter whether you're on
• 45:14
  the starting team or whatever. Being with you at one goal, which is to win, you'll have a diversity
• 45:21
  of people usually on the team. You have to bond with that team to have a winning team. Everyone counts,
• 45:31
  everyone will contribute some more than others. That's a great experience for kids. They don't have
• 45:38
  to be the best player. It doesn't matter. I also recommend performing arts. The reason I recommend
• 45:44
  performing arts is because it's a team sport also. Everybody diverse getting together. It doesn't
• 45:51
  matter if you're on stage or in front of the camera or whether you're backstage doing something.
• 45:57
  When I was young growing up, I was pulling curtains for a show at a local college. And I loved it.
• 46:04
  I wasn't performing. But, you know, there were 15 acts and each one had a different combination
• 46:11
  of curtains. I just had to keep that straight. And there were like 10 different possible curtains.
• 46:16
  And I loved it. I felt I did my job and I felt part of the whole group. So, performing arts,
• 46:23
  also I think a good way to learn diversity, learn other people's behaviors and teamwork and
• 46:30
  leadership. And then there's many more on the list, but I think you get the idea.
• 46:35
  The HubSpot podcast network is a success story partner. Now, a quick podcast recommendation.
• 46:40
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• 46:44
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• 46:49
  actually do what they do at work. So, if you have a business, if you manage people, if you have to
• 46:54
  hire people at any point, you have to listen to the show. I just listened to an episode on my good
• 46:58
  employee suddenly quit. That's an issue that we all have. And it totally clicked for me. One of the
• 47:02
  reasons I explained is why it's not usually about the money. It's about all these little promises
• 47:07
  that we as founders, entrepreneurs, managers, leaders, we break without realizing it. Like, when
• 47:12
  you tell someone you just hired that they're going to learn all these new skills, but you just
• 47:16
  keep giving them the same tasks over and over and over again. It made me realize that I probably lost
• 47:20
  a lot of good people for dumb reasons that I never noticed. And hiring is one of the most important
• 47:24
  things you can figure out. So, if you manage people or if you just want to understand what makes
• 47:28
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• 47:37
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  slash register to get your ticket today. So I want to just speak about Marvel because obviously
• 49:30
  that was a huge part of your career. And we touched on it a little bit but just to go a level deeper.
• 49:35
  So Marvel was basically bankrupt and I know I'm putting words into your mouth so you can tell
• 49:42
  me how good or bad it was but it was basically bankrupt. You came in. You didn't know the industry.
• 49:48
  When you come in, how do you know to a situation and this is sort of a leadership question
• 49:53
  laid on to a Marvel question. When you come into a situation that has history, how do you know
• 50:01
  sort of which industry wisdom you should learn and understand and keep versus which industry wisdom
• 50:08
  is not helpful at all and you have to sort of reinvent the wheel. You have to ignore some of
• 50:14
  the conventional wisdom that got the situation to where it is when you stepped in which was bad.
• 50:20
  In Marvel's case, Marvel had actually just come out of bankruptcy but it's important to talk about
• 50:26
  bankruptcy for a second because bankruptcy is a very very difficult process. Marvel had been in a
• 50:32
  tough bankruptcy for about two years before it came out of bankruptcy and a lot of people that
• 50:39
  don't know bankruptcy think oh you must be cured when you come out of bankruptcy and the reality is
• 50:45
  you're not cured. Your creditors have agreed on certain financial structures that they can live
• 50:55
  with. Those financial structures often are not the best structures for the individual business
• 51:00
  but it's what the creditors will agree to. So you're still very weak financially and you've lost
• 51:09
  a bankruptcy a lot of good people and that happened at Marvel. Long bankruptcy and people
• 51:16
  wondering if Marvel would ever actually come out of bankruptcy two years is a long time
• 51:23
  and good people left because they could. They were offered good jobs elsewhere and so there was a
• 51:29
  talent drain on Marvel that I had to deal with as well when I came in but so all of the turnarounds
• 51:42
  I've done well not all but most were businesses I had no background in. So and I'm always
• 51:50
  comfortable doing that in fact for a turnaround I could argue it's a good thing because you can
• 51:55
  really see what's wrong much easier if you have no background in industry and I had no background
• 52:03
  in motion pictures making them I love motion pictures but that's about it and I had no background
• 52:09
  in comic books publishing comic books the last time I read a comic book I was probably 12 years old
• 52:16
  so really didn't know much about either of those but the other thing that I do before I take on
• 52:23
  an assignment is homework and that homework is consists of two things one is and particularly
• 52:30
  the public company which Marvel was and it still is a part of dizzy now but Marvel went through
• 52:36
  bankruptcy still as a New York Stock Exchange company so when it came out of bankruptcy it's still
• 52:42
  a public company so there's a lot of public filings you can read that are open to people if you
• 52:48
  want to find them the things that you must you know submit to the SEC on a regular basis so I could
• 52:56
  see some of that but I also could find people to talk to through other people that would tell me
• 53:03
  something about Marvel what they thought was going on what were the problems did they know
• 53:08
  when it inside I would do that kind of searching on every opportunity I got and I turned down more
• 53:16
  opportunities when you go into a company you go into an opportunity I don't know if it's the first
• 53:22
  72 hours of reviewing maybe it's the first week maybe it's the first month first first quarter
• 53:28
  what are the signs that you can see immediately that a company's culture would be bankrupt
• 53:35
  I'm going to be honest with you I couldn't see any signs in three days or whatever it takes time
• 53:41
  working with people seeing their attitudes you know seeing what what went on in the past I I always
• 53:49
  knew going in that there'd be cultural problems no question it was you know but exactly what they
• 53:57
  would be you could guess from the outside before you go in but they're often not not often always
• 54:04
  surprises and so it's always worse than you think it is when you actually get inside and
• 54:10
  I don't care how much work you do looking in from the outside how many people you talk to doing
• 54:15
  your research all of these things it's always worse but in Marvel's case the one interesting thing I
• 54:21
  still remember is going through Marvel's books if you will after it had just come out of bankruptcy
• 54:28
  I'd still hadn't taken the job was that the the the lineup if you will of the characters
• 54:38
  Marvel had 4700 characters and the that entire group was valued at 500 million dollars
• 54:46
  on the books coming out of bankruptcy and I knew that one character alone spider man and I didn't
• 54:52
  I just knew as a consumer could be worth 500 million dollars if if managed correctly
• 55:01
  and and so I was very I thought this is definitely worth you know a shot
• 55:07
  and you can do a lot of homework but they're always surprises when you finally walk through the door
• 55:12
  every time you can't possibly it's always worse by the way than you think it's going to be
• 55:17
  I did seven turnarounds they were all the same it was always worse but um and so you know the
• 55:28
  I a lot of people want to give me a lot of the media and the interview me want to give me credit for
• 55:34
  the getting in the movie business the comic books etc actually movie business had already started
• 55:43
  uh it's come back before I got there I actually arrived the first film was X-Men 1
• 55:49
  in which came out in 2000 but in 1999 when I came to the company the first month I went to
• 55:56
  Toronto where we were filming you know on a set and a mansion some of the X-Men movie
• 56:02
  so it had started before me and we had some good people got him obvious rod really was the guy
• 56:08
  who pushed the motion pictures for Marvel it wasn't me I um I had to you know I tell people I read
• 56:17
  the scripts I never made a single change I wasn't I didn't feel I was qualified it would have been
• 56:22
  the height of arrogance for me to start telling people writing scripts filming movies how to do
• 56:29
  their job it would have been crazy so I didn't and I think that being an outsider it allows you to
• 56:35
  look at things differently and I think that's the huge advantage that you bring I think yes I think
• 56:42
  you're right I think that we talked about culture briefly also is the culture of the company right
• 56:49
  and invariably in any turn around the culture is not right now I'm defining the culture two ways
• 56:55
  as two pieces one is how we treat each other very simply and how we view people outside the
• 57:02
  company that are important to us they could be suppliers they could be customers they could be
• 57:07
  advisors they could be whatever it's it's it's you know how do we value human beings you know
• 57:16
  in terms of success the second thing is what do we need to be really good at to be successful
• 57:24
  we'd love to try to be good at everything but what are the key things is it new products
• 57:30
  is it customer service is it manufacturing you know so on it's it's very often the organ
• 57:40
  of the culture doesn't realize even what they need to be good at or doesn't take it seriously I've
• 57:46
  gone into cultures that actually didn't respect customers if you can believe that
• 57:52
  it's hard to imagine similarly with comic books the main thing was getting back a lot of the talent
• 57:58
  that we've lost we had some we hired some very good people our editor and chief came in
• 58:05
  who came in with Joe Cassada who was very instrumental in bringing back a lot of talent the talent
• 58:11
  could talk to me but I was the suit so to speak I was not the the fellow comic book guy if you know
• 58:18
  what I mean and so they needed someone like Joe to give them confidence that we were going to make
• 58:24
  it and so while I read the comic books I read them after they were published and I made very
• 58:31
  few decisions in comics or in film for that matter credit really I will take a lot of credit
• 58:37
  for staying out of their way which is very hard for week for week leaders week leaders will come
• 58:44
  in and want the world to think that their instant experts on some industry they think it's a
• 58:50
  sign of weakness you know what I did was a sign of weakness not suddenly showing up on the sets
• 58:58
  you know or or reading the the soft copy on on a comic book and making change no no I wasn't
• 59:06
  going to do that so my my big job was one making sure the culture the values system of the business
• 59:13
  was correct what we thought was important was what we were working on how we treated
• 59:19
  our our fellow employees and the people we counted on outside the company our customers our suppliers
• 59:25
  and on and on and on okay and that was my first big job and the I will say because I had a great
• 59:33
  board that agreed completely right away with the with the new culture that was basically a culture
• 59:41
  of changing the rules of the game we were not going to make movies the way big studios did
• 59:47
  and initially we had to because we had no money and we had to be partnered with that but eventually
• 59:52
  when we started model studios we did things very different same thing in comic books we did a lot
• 1:00:01
  of new things that worked out very well that other people weren't doing so that was all part of it
• 1:00:08
  and and actually most people don't realize I was there for the first year when I came to the
• 1:00:14
  company this stock was $7 after a year it was like a dollar and a half the world still thought we
• 1:00:22
  were going to go bankrupt again but the big event there were several big events but the biggest
• 1:00:27
  event was a year after I came X-Men 1 came out it was a gigantic hit people were lined up around
• 1:00:34
  the block on Friday night to go see the movie when it first aired or across the United States
• 1:00:40
  and most of those people had no idea that the X-Men was the number one comic book in the world
• 1:00:47
  they didn't just thought they just heard it was a cool movie and they had to see it
• 1:00:53
  so it demonstrated the power of comic book characters when they were done right
• 1:01:00
  and of course ultimately after 10 years that I was there first as CEO and then as vice chairman
• 1:01:06
  of the board we sold the Disney for four and a half billion dollars from bankruptcy 10 years
• 1:01:11
  earlier what was the biggest bet that you took because you said you didn't mess with what worked
• 1:01:19
  you preserve the culture you stayed out of the lanes of the writers and the producers because that's
• 1:01:25
  not what you knew but was there a bet that you took like something that you brought in it was I
• 1:01:30
  mean like I know a little bit about Robert Downey Jr being involved in Disney at this point that
• 1:01:37
  was I'm assuming one bet was that a big bet that came some in the number of years later I wasn't
• 1:01:44
  to CEO anymore I was on the board as vice chairman and essentially we had abandoned our joint
• 1:01:54
  uh ventures with big studios and we're starting it's really restarting way back in the early 90s
• 1:02:02
  Marlowe had had its own studio it had not done well so this was a rejuvenation of Marvel studios
• 1:02:09
  and the first film was going to be Iron Man and Tony Stark being the name of the character
• 1:02:15
  we needed to cast someone great we really had a lot writing on on this we had raised 500
• 1:02:22
  and 25 million dollars in debt to fund Marvel Studios a deal that will never be done again we
• 1:02:30
  have really no equity if you can believe that but at that point we had we had been the most
• 1:02:36
  successful film producers in history as measured by average worldwide box office for our films
• 1:02:43
  and so it was it was hard but we still were able to get very very good terms on the debt
• 1:02:52
  and so we had to but we had to have a winner out of the box and the board initially did not
• 1:03:00
  you know was very anti-tasting Robert Downey Jr as Tony Stark because Robert had had some
• 1:03:06
  brushes with the law as you probably know not not soon before his mug shot was on all the media
• 1:03:13
  everywhere and the board naturally was um was definitely concerned about casting him as the
• 1:03:23
  primary role we knew he was a great actor however Robert screen tested and the board saw the
• 1:03:30
  screen test and it was so good that when the lights came on the board including me or we're saying
• 1:03:38
  you know together do it and the rest is history so so we did take a risk no one else at that
• 1:03:45
  point I think would touch Robert and he delivered and he's and that was 20 years ago so so you know
• 1:03:55
  and he said great movies and he's still playing on Iron Man and uh he's a great actor just one
• 1:04:02
  award for best supporting actor if you remember and uh god bless him he's been very was there any
• 1:04:09
  bets that you took a little bit earlier on when you were still in CEO role when it was you know
• 1:04:17
  it was just coming out of bankruptcy that were more stressful bigger bets things that you weren't
• 1:04:23
  sure if they were going to work out but you went with anyways um you know I'd be lying if I
• 1:04:31
  said there was any one's huge huge bet that I made or I got the board to make with me any huge
• 1:04:39
  bet would would require of course board approval um but I I don't think that there was any one big
• 1:04:48
  huge amazing bet I'll mention something to you wasn't so much of a bet but this may qualify for
• 1:04:54
  your question so after six months I've been on the job six months of CEO my CFO quit and went to
• 1:05:03
  another job and rather than hire a new CFO you might call us a bet I took the job myself so I was
• 1:05:11
  now the CEO and the CFO at the same time for a public company and by the way Scott today you couldn't
• 1:05:18
  get away with this this something called Sarbanes Oxley came along after this okay with a law change
• 1:05:27
  there was no way this would be acceptable but I wanted to do the CFO job the two because I wanted
• 1:05:34
  I was going to understand the business just so much faster if I understood all of the numbers
• 1:05:40
  where they were coming from why they were good why they weren't good what could we do to change
• 1:05:47
  our different businesses so that you know so that our financial situation improved and I actually
• 1:05:55
  was CFO for two years I was a CEO for almost four years but the CEO before I hired someone else but
• 1:06:04
  it gave me great insight you know the numbers are like blood in the person's body you know the numbers
• 1:06:13
  flow around from different parts of the body different parts of the organization and you want to
• 1:06:18
  understand you know the chemistry whether the numbers are good or bad whatever very very important
• 1:06:26
  and for someone who doesn't going to a business they didn't know it's really important so I didn't
• 1:06:33
  want to see a photo leave but since that was his decision and got something better you know
• 1:06:40
  so so I grabbed it and so big bet I don't know about a big bet but it was certainly very radical
• 1:06:47
  and very different and of course the investors in a public company you know what are they thinking
• 1:06:54
  what the CEO is crazy he wants to be the CFO also so it certainly wasn't popular initially
• 1:07:03
  after a while though when we started doing well everyone forgot about it just one last thought on
• 1:07:08
  just sort of your decision making framework because obviously Marvel was a successful story
• 1:07:13
  you've had multiple is it seven turn around so you've made some pretty good decisions across
• 1:07:18
  your career but you make big decisions you deal with companies that are at their worst point ever
• 1:07:25
  what is your advice for making decisions and understanding if they're going to be brilliant or
• 1:07:30
  if they're going to bankrupt your company like you take risk but it works out so there's some
• 1:07:35
  framework that you follow what is it it's purely instinct and I would love to tell you that every
• 1:07:41
  decision I make and every turn around was correct that wouldn't be the case I have my flaws like
• 1:07:47
  other people I had a good batting average yes okay I had a good batting average and I think I
• 1:07:54
  knew generally what was important and what have you but there's no formula it's it's it's a much of
• 1:08:00
  it is instinct and that instinct that you've developed over the years in dealing with people
• 1:08:07
  and when when you get you know you're going to need some new people you may not know day one
• 1:08:13
  who will wear but it's inevitable and you know also that there's going to be some people who
• 1:08:20
  won't make the trip they just won't support you they'll think what your new strategy your new
• 1:08:26
  culture whatever is wrong and if anything there'll be a negative there'll be a cancer on the
• 1:08:32
  organization they'll be talking you down there'll be whatever and they have to go and you can try
• 1:08:40
  for a little while to turn them around but I never tried for very long because I didn't have time
• 1:08:44
  on my side and so they those people had to exit the company and you should not take too long to
• 1:08:53
  make that decision and make it happen mo many unsuccessful leaders simply can't make they can't
• 1:09:02
  bring themselves to make that decision that because it's hard it is hard it's not about it
• 1:09:07
  and unfortunately it's too late area orphan for them where can people connect with you I know
• 1:09:15
  you mentioned your website where else should they go if they want to consume more of your content
• 1:09:20
  listens your podcast read your book all of it so my my let's take each one my podcast is on
• 1:09:27
  petercunio.com it's also on amazon Spotify iHeart the normal places you'd go we did film season two we
• 1:09:36
  did not film season one so we are on youtube with season two as well and so you could see two people
• 1:09:44
  sitting there talking to each other for 40 minutes not sure why people would want to do this but it's
• 1:09:50
  apparently it's a trend popular now i think people put it on in the background now i think i think
• 1:09:54
  right so that's the podcast podcast is all about me interviewing great leaders all different types
• 1:10:01
  talk about diversity all different industries the military uh you know other places as well where
• 1:10:09
  they've been great leaders um the uh the i have a book coming out called superhero leadership by
• 1:10:16
  the way the podcast is petercunio.com but the excuse me the website is petercunio.com the podcast is
• 1:10:24
  superhero leadership with petercunio i have a book coming out in february that ties into all of this
• 1:10:32
  including a lot of the stuff we've just been talking about uh it's my take on you mentioned 32
• 1:10:39
  essentials for superhero leadership it's actually now 28 um just because we consolidated four into
• 1:10:46
  the other 28 um when we wrote the book so it's 28 but it's really the same 32 and um and that's
• 1:10:56
  the form of the book that these essentials for superhero leadership are one liners things i think
• 1:11:02
  that i've learned in my life of of leadership and they are instincts they are philosophies they are
• 1:11:11
  behaviors they are ways of just set your mind all of these different things and i think for
• 1:11:19
  perspective leaders really go to petercunio.com you can see the 28 there you can copy them
• 1:11:26
  and with the last thing i would say i still grate myself on the 28 every once in a while
• 1:11:32
  and i think other people can grade themselves as well if the honest with yourself they can
• 1:11:37
  grade other people they want that way too i wish i could give myself an a on every world 28
• 1:11:43
  skyd i gotta be honest i'm not i'm not straight a i'm trying very hard even at this age
• 1:11:50
  if you could look back and out of all the wisdom that you've learned over your life
• 1:11:55
  and throughout your career and you could tell your 20 year old self sort of one last piece of wisdom
• 1:12:01
  or even like one piece of wisdom that you'd want to pass on to your kids what would that
• 1:12:05
  less than be and why lead a diverse life diversity as i said in terms of who you
• 1:12:12
  who you meet who your friends are um business challenges or or non profit challenges if that's
• 1:12:20
  the way you go whatever whatever you decide to make a career of make sure that you you know you
• 1:12:29
  become wiser and you make better decisions when you've had diverse exposures to people