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Murder In Moscow: Bryan Kohberger Is Playing The Long Game · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up everyone and welcome back to the program. In
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to spin back up to Moscow
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: and we're going to check in on what's going on
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: with Brian Kohlberger and the latest news that the trial
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: is going to get a change of venue. And honestly,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: I thought that the judge, if anything, was going to
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: end up splitting the baby here and having a jury
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: brought in from a county outside of Moscow-Latak County area.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: But instead... Judge John Judge just decided, you know what?
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Let's go all the way and we're just going to
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: move this venue. Now we're in limbo as we await
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: a decision on where this trial is going to be moved,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: who the judge is going to be, and when things
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: are going to move forward. And hopefully that doesn't have
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: any sort of effect on when this trial itself kicks off.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: So the last thing anybody wants here is another delay.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, and while I know it's frustrating...
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: We have to understand that this is a man that's
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: fighting for his life, and his team is going to
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: do everything in their power to try and make sure
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: that that doesn't become a reality. And as long as
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: they're doing things within the guidelines of the law, well,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: they're allowed to do it, even if we don't agree.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Today's article is from the U.S. Sun, and the headline,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Calculated Moves. Brian Kohlberger's defense team's victory proves they are
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: thinking two steps ahead and preparing for appeal. legal expert says.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: And this is what I've been saying from the beginning.
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  Speaker 1: Everything they're doing is about the appeal. When you have
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: this kind of evidence that's stacked against your client, it's
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: very difficult to prove that they're innocent, right? You don't
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: have any eyewitness account or alibi. You don't have anybody
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: to corroborate his alibi. All you have is his word.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: And my guess is the jury doesn't really give a
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: damn about his word considering his DNA is on the
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: knife sheath that was found under Madison Mogin. So until
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: that can be explained, as we've discussed ad nauseum now,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: there is going to be a very difficult path to
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: victory here for Brian Kohlberger. And while I think that
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: all of the evidence certainly lines up against him, I'm
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: not willing to convict him yet, but I'm not going
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  Speaker 1: to sit here and act like the evidence that has
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: been compiled against him, that we're privy to anyway, isn't strong.
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  Speaker 1: Because it damn sure well is. And so while I
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: think that this is certainly a victory for the defense,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: at least in the short term, I think overall, this
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: is a victory for everybody who cares about justice. And
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: that's because you cut their legs off when it comes
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to the appeal. How long have I been talking about that?
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  Speaker 1: The appeal is what this is all about because Brian
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Kohlberger's team and Taylor and company, they know the evidence
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: that's lined up against them and they know that it's very,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: very strong. And when you're dealing with evidence that's that strong,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: you have to have a different plan, right? You have
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: to have a plan wrapped inside of a plan wrapped
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: inside of another plan. and the plan's going to be
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  Speaker 1: appeal until the cows come home. This article was authored
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: by Katie Forrester. Brian Koberger's defense team is thinking two
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  Speaker 1: steps ahead and preparing to appeal even before the trial begins,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: an expert has claimed, to the U.S. Sun. The alleged
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: killer's defense team scored a big victory after a judge
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  Speaker 1: ruled in their favor to move the high-profile trial out
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  Speaker 1: of Latah County, where the murders happened. And I keep
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: seeing people frame it as some kind of victory, but...
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Let's be honest, okay? It doesn't matter where this man
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  Speaker 1: goes to be put on trial. What matters is the
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: evidence that's been compiled against him. What, you think people
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: up in Ada County, you think people in the Boise
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: area have no idea what happened down here? We live
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  Speaker 1: in the information age. There's some dude in a cave
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  Speaker 1: right now in Afghanistan following along on his iPhone. So
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  Speaker 1: if you think that moving it to a different county
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  Speaker 1: is going to give you the relief you're seeking, well, okay,
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  Speaker 1: I guess, but... I don't think it's going to have
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  Speaker 1: the effect that you think it's going to have. And again,
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  Speaker 1: like I've said before, and like I continue to believe,
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  Speaker 1: all of this has to do with the appeal, and
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  Speaker 1: the whole narrative's being masterfully crafted right now by Ann
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  Speaker 1: Taylor and company. Koberger, 29, is facing four counts of
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  Speaker 1: first-degree murder in connection with the killings of Madison Mogan,
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  Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonsalves, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. The University of
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  Speaker 1: Idaho students were stabbed to death in their beds at
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  Speaker 1: their off-campus house in Moscow, Idaho. on November 13th, 2022,
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  Speaker 1: in a crime that shook America, hell, the whole world.
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  Speaker 1: I get emails from people all around the world talking
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  Speaker 1: about this case. People are interested, people are invested, and
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  Speaker 1: people want justice. Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson said his
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: team is pursuing the death penalty, and Koberger's team have
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  Speaker 1: filed many motions in recent months as they prepare for
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  Speaker 1: a huge court battle, and those are the documents that
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: we're currently making our way through. and we have plenty
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: more to get to. There were some monster drops that
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: came along with those new documents to hit the docket,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: and while we've made our way through a few of them,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: there are several more that we have to dive into,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: and we'll be doing that over the next week or so.
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  Speaker 1: Former Los Angeles prosecutor Nima Rahmani gave the U.S. Sun
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  Speaker 1: his opinion on how the case is unfolding. Kohlberger's lawyers
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  Speaker 1: have filed motion after motion to create a record on appeal,
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  Speaker 1: Rahmani said, and this is something that lawyers love to do.
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  Speaker 1: They're going to make all these objections. They're going to
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  Speaker 1: file all these motions so that later on down the road,
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  Speaker 1: they can say that their client didn't get a fair shake.
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  Speaker 1: And that's what the whole entire motive is here for
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  Speaker 1: Kohlberger's team. They're building the narrative that Brian Kohlberger is
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  Speaker 1: getting railroaded and he's not getting a fair shake. That way,
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  Speaker 1: the appeals board takes a look at what's going on.
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  Speaker 1: There's a record of all these objections and all these
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  Speaker 1: so-called issues that the legal team had with the first trial.
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  Speaker 1: And we saw the same thing with Alec Murdaugh. We
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  Speaker 1: saw it with Chad Daybell. We saw it with Lori Vallow.
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  Speaker 1: And as we cover these trials live and as they're happening,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: you see it as it's happening. They'll object to things
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  Speaker 1: that are seemingly ridiculous to object to, but everything has
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: a purpose. And the purpose is the long game. The
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  Speaker 1: long game is the appeal. The long game is when
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  Speaker 1: they know that they're cooked at this level. And Brian
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  Speaker 1: Kohlberger's team understands that the evidence that's been collected against
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  Speaker 1: him is not weak evidence. It's not the kind of
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  Speaker 1: evidence that's going to get thrown out. And it's not
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  Speaker 1: the kind of evidence that's not going to be admitted
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: into the court. So all they can hope for is
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: some kind of issue with how that evidence was collected
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  Speaker 1: or how that evidence was stored. And so far, we
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  Speaker 1: haven't seen any of that yet. So what do you do?
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  Speaker 1: Comes down to loopholes and technicalities, baby. And that's where
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: we're at. Loopholes and technicalities. They know it's difficult to
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: get a death penalty qualified panel not to convict. And
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: if they do, the jury will likely recommend a death
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  Speaker 1: sentence for one of the most gruesome murders in Idaho
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  Speaker 1: state history. They also know it's more likely to get
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  Speaker 1: a death sentence overturned on appeal than to actually get
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: a not guilty verdict at trial. And that's a fact.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: That is 100% a fact. If you get hit with
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  Speaker 1: a death penalty, a capital punishment sentence, then you're going
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  Speaker 1: to have every chance in the world to get that overturned.
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  Speaker 1: During the appeal process, that's going to take, oh, I
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: don't know, 25 or 30 years in most cases. So
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Brian Koberger, if he does get convicted, is going to
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  Speaker 1: have multiple chances to get that overturned. And the building
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  Speaker 1: blocks for that are being set right now so they
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  Speaker 1: have a foundation to build upon. So these motions are
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  Speaker 1: more to create issues on appeal than to have any
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  Speaker 1: real chance of of success at trial. He went on
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  Speaker 1: to say that he believes the defense strategy has been aggressive, 1,000%.
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  Speaker 1: And when somebody's fighting for their life, what are you
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  Speaker 1: supposed to do? As a defense attorney, I know if
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I was defending Brian Kohlberger, I'd be doing the same
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  Speaker 1: exact stuff. I'd be going as hard as I could
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  Speaker 1: in the paint for my client. That's your job. And
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: everybody in this country, no matter how vile we think
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: they are, deserves the best legal representation possible. And in
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  Speaker 1: my opinion, Brian Kohlberger most certainly is getting that. The
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  Speaker 1: legal representation that he's getting is master class. And imagine,
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  Speaker 1: this is all done on state funds, so it just
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  Speaker 1: goes to show you what money can buy inside of
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  Speaker 1: the courtroom. If you have a bunch of dough, you're
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  Speaker 1: going to have a better chance to defend yourself no
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  Speaker 1: matter what, because you can hire a lawyer like Ann Taylor. Now,
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  Speaker 1: if you're just some Joe Schmo, well, you're going to
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  Speaker 1: get stuck with a public defender, and trust me when
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: I tell you, not all of them are like Ann Taylor.
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  Speaker 1: The reason he got such a good public defender is
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  Speaker 1: because this is a death penalty case. If it wasn't
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  Speaker 1: a death penalty case, he probably would have had some
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  Speaker 1: Joe Schmo public defender. It's probably frustrating for the prosecution
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  Speaker 1: and the victims' families, who have been waiting for years
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  Speaker 1: for justice for their murdered loved ones, he said, and
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  Speaker 1: that's really the worst part of all of this, right?
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  Speaker 1: The family members that have to go through it, the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: family members that have to wait, the family members that
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  Speaker 1: are in agony as these trials progress. But unfortunately, this
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  Speaker 1: is the legal system that we're hampered with, And this
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  Speaker 1: is how it goes. The saying the wheels of justice
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  Speaker 1: turn slowly is not just a saying. It's the truth.
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  Speaker 1: They grind slowly. But once you get caught up in them,
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  Speaker 1: they grind you to bits. And that's where Brian Koberger
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  Speaker 1: is at right now. He's in the phase of getting
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  Speaker 1: grinded to bits. His legal team knows it. Everybody following
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  Speaker 1: the case knows it. And I think that when all
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  Speaker 1: is said and done, justice is going to be served.
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  Speaker 1: one way or the other. But the defense job is
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: to keep Kohlberger alive, so if moving the venue increases
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: that chance, they're doing their job as death penalty defense lawyers.
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  Speaker 1: Rachmani said the change of venue is appropriate when a
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  Speaker 1: defendant can't get a fair and impartial jury pool in
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  Speaker 1: the current county, but he doesn't believe the defense has
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  Speaker 1: met that burden. They contacted prospective jurors and conducted a
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  Speaker 1: phone search. in violation of the court's order, he explained.
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  Speaker 1: As a practical matter, too, everyone in the state of
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Idaho and the entire country has heard of the Idaho murders.
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  Speaker 1: And that's exactly where I'm at. So I think it's
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: much ado about nothing, but I'm also very cognizant of
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  Speaker 1: the fact that they're playing the long game and they're
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: looking at the appeal because they know their clients cooked.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Keep that in mind. There's no guarantee that the juror
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: pool in another Idaho county would be any different. Rahmani,
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  Speaker 1: president and co-founder of West Coast Trial Lawyers, explained family
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  Speaker 1: members of the victims would also be forced to travel
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: to the trial and may have to pay for it themselves.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: There are statutory fees for witnesses, but they're not much,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Rahmani said. He said the judge took a cautious approach
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: by moving the trial, likely to avoid unnecessary appellate issues,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: which is a legal error that may have occurred in
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: a lower court's proceedings. A larger courthouse also helps logistically
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: because there will be significant media and public interest in
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: the case, he said. And I think that's the most
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: compelling reason to move this. The fact that logistically, they're
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: more able to deal with what's coming up in Boise.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: But besides that, the whole entire juror pool stuff, like
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I've said from the jump, doesn't really sit with me.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: And that's because technology, we're all connected, everybody's talking, everybody
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: knows who Brian Kohlberger is and what he allegedly done.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: This is the same reason why the court issued a
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: very broad gag order in the case, to avoid potential
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: problems with pretrial publicity. Judge John Judge called the venue
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: change the most difficult decision of his career as he
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: sided with the defense and after they presented data showing
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: how often residents in the county were exposed to media
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: coverage of Koberger's case. The crazy part is, the prosecution,
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: they didn't offer any witnesses to rebut what the defense
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: witnesses were talking about. So if you're not going to
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: offer your own expert witnesses, what do you think the
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: court's going to say or do? Considering the undisputed evidence
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: presented by the defense, the extreme nature of the news
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: coverage in this case, and the smaller population in Latah County,
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  Speaker 1: The defense has met the rather low standard of demonstrating
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: a reasonable likelihood that prejudicial news coverage will compromise a
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: fair trial in Latah County, the judge wrote. And while
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I disagree that they can't find a jury in Latah County,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I can't disagree with Judge Judge's motivation. Because again, he's
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: thinking about the long game and the appeals that are
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: most assuredly coming. So he's trying to avoid that right
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: now so it's not an issue later on. Thus, the
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: court will grant Koberger's motion to change venue for presumed prejudice.
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  Speaker 1: He also noted that the Latah County Courthouse is not
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: big enough to accommodate the trial and that county sheriff's
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: office does not have enough deputies to handle security. The
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: new location was not immediately revealed in the court ruling
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: and will be decided by Idaho's highest court. Koberger pleaded
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: not guilty to all counts in May 2023, and his
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: trial is expected to begin in June of next year. Alright,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: well let's hope that the trial stays on track and
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: we don't have any more delays, because that's the last
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: thing we need here. So we'll continue to follow along,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and like I said earlier, we have a lot more
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: court documents to get added to the catalog, so we'll
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: get cracking on those, and obviously when new information becomes available,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: we'll get that added as well. All of the information
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that goes with this episode can be found in the
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: description box.