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What Does the Coming of the Subjective Age Mean to Us? · Sri Aurobindo Studies

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Good morning once again, everyone.
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Welcome to the Culture of T Nation Fellowship and thank you
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for joining us this morning. We have founded in 1951 by Hydas
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and Veena Choudhury as a center of universal religion and
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spiritual practice. And in keeping with the spirit
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of unity and diversity, we honor the spiritual traditions of
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diverse cultures and religions. Today's talk is titled What does
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the Coming of the Subjective Age Mean to us?
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The stock is going to be presented by our own Santosh
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Krinsky. Santosh, as many of you would
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know, has been studying Shurabundo's writing since 1971
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and has a daily blog at shurabundostudies.wordpress.com
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and podcast at Anchor dot FM slash Santosh Dash Krinsky.
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These details are there in the announcement that I sent out.
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Santosh decided at Sharbindo Ashram from spring 1973 to
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winter 1974. He is author of 17 books and is
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editor in chief at Lotus Press. He is president of Institute for
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Holistic Education, a nonprofit focused on integrating
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spirituality into daily life. He has spent more than 48 years
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building and developing infrastructure for publishing,
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distributing and educating about the spiritual path of Shore
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Bindle, as well as developing and guiding companies at the
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forefront of publishing books and distributing books and
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products to support the natural market as well as the
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metaphysical market in North America.
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For more information about the the writings of Sherbinder and
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the Mother, you can visit lotuspress.com as well as visit
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the daily blog postings. I've already mentioned the URL
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of that page and the web page aurobindo.net.
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Before I hand over the screen to Santosh, I want to read a poem
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from Doctor Adas Choudhury from the collections The Rhythm of
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Truth, and this poem is titled Know Thyself.
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The profound word of wisdom that rings through ages declares
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unambiguously one supreme message.
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Know the know the secret of thyself, thy own inmost center.
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Discover in thy inner temple the world's greatest wonder.
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In one tiny atom is reflected the whole of matter, in one
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negligible drop is hidden the mystery of all water.
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In a single leaf of the tree is outlined its unique pattern.
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In a single line of a book is contained its special design.
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So also in every finite soul dwells the Infinite Supreme.
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In the inmost recess of the heart shines the Eternal
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undemned. To know the secret of the Self
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is the Master key to possess to unlock the mysteries of being
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with sovereign ease and success. To discover the Self of Self is
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the Master Light to attain that dispels all darkness and doubt,
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the last harmony to regain deeper than intellect and ego.
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The The Self is the principle of unity, connecting man with man,
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each with all. It is the bond of universality,
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deeper than conscious and unconscious.
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The self is the center, super conscious, uniting man with God,
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part with the whole. It is the Infinite's unique
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focus. To know the Self is to discover
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the unit, the individual's unique mission, the purpose of
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the Divine in life, and the secret of final fruition.
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Let's take a minute to meditate on those words.
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Over to you, Santosh. Thank you once again for doing
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this for us. Well, thank you.
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It's it's always a pleasure to join you and so many of our
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friends in the yoga for these sessions.
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So thank you for the opportunity to meet with everybody once
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again. I have a little bit of a
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different plan this time than normal, and that is that I'd
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like to present some kind of concepts or ideas or
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observations and finish up a little bit early and open it up
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to an interactive dialogue. The age of reason and
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individualism which built modern day society has been reaching
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what I would say are its limits. We see that in many different
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ways. Shrioro Bindo set forth the
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concept of the subjective age in his book titled The Human Cycle,
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and I recommend to everybody, if you really want to dive into the
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subject of the subjective age and its significance, read that
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book. He does a much better job than
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than I could ever do in terms of organizing the mass of
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information. And certainly in an hour.
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We can't dream of covering everything.
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So what I thought would be useful is not to try to cover
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the ground, but to focus on what it means to us, how our lives
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are impacted, how we experience what's taking place in the world
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today, and how that relates to the transition to a new age of
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consciousness, the subjective age.
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So the first question is what do we mean by the subjective age
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and the word subjective? A lot of us think, well, it's
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just our own individual feelings.
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So everybody's right and everybody's feelings are their
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own. And there's no objective factual
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basis for anything. And that's actually an
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inaccuracy. There is an objective reality
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that we share and that we live in, and the subjective age
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doesn't mean to abandon the objective factual world of
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science or measurement or mathematics or any of those
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things which we have tested over time and determined to be
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reproducible and able to be shared among people, whoever
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they are, wherever they in the world, if they're willing to do
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the measurement, they can get the same result.
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The idea that first people have when they think about the
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subjective age and the abandonment of the logical
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intellect and reason, which is what that implies to them, is to
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create what we've heard in our political arena are alternative
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facts. We don't like the facts the way
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they present themselves in the outer world, so we create
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alternative facts. This is actually an attempt to
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retreat to an earlier phase of human development, a phase where
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we're sort of sub rational or infra rational and we're not
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moving beyond the rational, we're moving backwards to a
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space where we just react. It's all vital reaction.
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The, I guess the period early in the 20th century, we saw a
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number of movements where people, philosophers tried to
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develop something that wasn't as constrained as the mental
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organized rational, fact based society that we were living in
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that had started to become encrusted with fixed norms.
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And so you see people looking for the will to power, the
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attempt to go beyond the limits of the mind.
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And this was misinterpreted to a great degree.
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It was, as Nietzsche was saying, the superior man is not bound by
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the rules of society. And this was interpreted to mean
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that if you defined yourself as a superior man, you could do
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whatever you're pleased and be destructive or whatever else.
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That's actually not what is intended by that.
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The superior man is the evolved being who has gone beyond the
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strictures of the mind to actually appreciate and
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understand the spirit for which the rules of the intellect and
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the codes of the vital nature were developed.
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In other words, to have a deeper insight and not need to be bound
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by a rule because you're beyond that rule in a in a very
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positive sense. So quickly the idea of the
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subjective age is to move to a new form of knowledge, a new
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form of knowing. We see in and, and I'm just
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going to take us very briefly into Sri Aurobindo's organized
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statement of the types of knowledge and their relationship
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to the different ages of humanity.
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So you have, putting aside the very early ones, the symbolic
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stage, the one just preceding the intellectual rational stage,
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was the conventional age of society.
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And that builds institutions. So we see the great churches of
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the world, we see the great monarchies and empires of the
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world. These are the fruits of the
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conventional age, and they're ruled by authority, somebody who
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assumes the mantle of authority and control and tells everybody
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what they should believe and how they should relate to things and
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controls how things happen. Now, initially that may have
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arisen naturally as people gain certain new forms of knowledge
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and began to communicate it, but eventually it became fixed and
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immovable and became a limitation to further growth.
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The reaction to that was the development of the, what we
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might call the rational or the intellectual stage of
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development. And their knowledge came through
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the use of the mind, through reason and logic and development
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of science. And so we saw in society the
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great battle between religion and science, Religion saying you
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have to believe because we say you need to believe this, and
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science saying, well, we want to study and find out what the real
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underlying facts and truth are and find out more or less for
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ourselves individually. This worked up to a stage until
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it too became fixed and immovable.
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And we got to the point where people were bound by reason and
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logic to the extent that they couldn't understand the spirit.
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We became law bound and we saw that.
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If anyone has read Charles Dickens Hard Times, there's a
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story there of a man who was all like everything has to be
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measured and fixed and mathematical and mechanical and
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organized and fixed rules and ways of doing things.
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And this too became an obstacle to further growth.
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And so we then come to what Trior Robindo calls the next
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phase of knowledge, knowledge by identity, because the other
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forms are knowledge through separate of knowledge.
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It's I am the perceiver and I perceive an object outside
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myself, but knowledge by identity is I am one with the
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object of my knowledge. So subject and object are one
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and you know it because you are it.
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You vibrate with it, you intuit with it.
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It's an intuitive inward form of knowledge and that is the
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direction of the coming of the spiritual and subjective age.
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So with that background, we can then move to what is our current
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situation? How do we understand the world
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we're living in? What do we observe?
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We see in our political world? Gridlock.
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Everyone is fighting with everyone else.
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Nothing can move forward. Everyone has their own opinion,
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their own way of looking at things, and it's all stopped.
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And so things deteriorate through gridlock.
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We see at the same time people becoming frustrated and
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questioning the very framework of Society, of religion, of the
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economy, the way the economy is structured, the way we interact
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with each other and the way we interact with the environment.
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We see very few people becoming mega billionaires and we see 70
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or 80% of the people in the world struggling to keep a roof
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over their heads and food on the table and and live a decent
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life. Somehow we've gotten out of
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balance, and that out of balance is a sign of the limits of the
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rational, intellectual, mechanical ways of the current
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age, and it's a sign that we need to find a new way forward.
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We find that as much as we believe in the intellect and its
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powers, and it's done tremendous things in the world, it's
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uncovered the sources of diseases and helped to cure
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them. It's found how to create food
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for 9 billion people. And it's found how to do so many
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things, explore the universe, send people out into space and
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do so many things. But we also have now begun to
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see what I call the law of unintended consequences, which
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is that the mind is so limited in its framework.
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It's linear and fragmented. And as a result, every time it
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pushes forward, it doesn't see the global impact and
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consequences of what it's doing. And therefore it creates more
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and more unintended consequences that we're living with right
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now. Climate change, pollution, the
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collapse of the ocean, fisheries and what that's going to do to
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billions of people on the planet who rely on that as a primary
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food source. The fact that scientists are now
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telling us we're in the midst of the 6th mass planetary die off,
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the mass extinction event. We have species disappearing
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every day. And some may say, well that's
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OK, they're old fashioned species, we don't need them
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anymore. OK?
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I mean, who needs a rhinoceros? That's you hear this sometimes.
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What is it all about? Who cares?
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Well, the planetary die off also includes things like bees.
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And we may not understand how important bees are, but without
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bees, they're one of the major pollinators to create the foods
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that we eat. And if you ever saw one of the
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studies that showed what would happen to our grocery store if
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there weren't bees anymore, you would be shocked.
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In fact, we might all be on the quick path to extinction
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ourselves. So these type of pressures are
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forcing people to re evaluate how they relate to their own
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lives and guiding them towards this next evolutionary
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development. The mass migrations, the wars,
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the suffering, the starvation, the increased disease vectors,
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the pollution, the climate change, all these things
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together are creating the pressure for change.
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Sri Aurobindo describes that nature tends to make its
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transitions under pressure, and I think we all can relate to
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that in our own lives. If things are going well, we
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just want to sit back and enjoy. And yet at a certain point in
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time when progress is needed, things happen in our lives to
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pressure us, to force us to get up and do something and change
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the way we look at things. And nature works like that.
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So we're under this intense pressure right now, which shows
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us that it is time for a change, for a transition to a new way of
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seeing and dealing with things. Now, we then come to the idea of
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what are the signs of the coming of this new age, a subjective
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age? How do we recognize that this is
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what's happening? First of all, we see a breakdown
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in reliance on external authority, and we see people
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rejecting the idea that politicians, judges, religious
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leaders can simply tell us what to do.
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We don't want that. We want to find our own truth,
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our own inner truth. We see a vast uprising, people
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seeking for spiritual guidance, for yoga, for new directions,
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for direct relationship. The mainstream churches are
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undergoing a crisis and they define the crisis as people are
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leaving the church and they're defining themselves as
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spiritual, not religious. And that is a sign of the
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subjective age. People want to have a direct
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experience. In the 60s, they were given the
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idea that they could have a direct experience of God through
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hallucinogenic drugs. And so there was a big LSD
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movement and mescaline and peyote movement that took place
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without judging people one way or the other.
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It's a sign that they wanted to find what the reality, what the
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truth was, without someone just telling them that out of a book
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or a classroom. We see people seeking for a new
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way of knowing things. The alternative facts we
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discussed at the beginning are a fall back to an attempt to react
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more spontaneously to life. But we also see a forward
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movement with people looking at developing a higher intuition of
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trying to really understand what the Nexus of life, what the
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world is that we live in, how we can be 1 human family within a
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larger context of a world environment and sharing the
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planet with all the beings we share the planet with.
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You get a sense of unity and oneness of connection.
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And these are signs in my mind of the development of the
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subjective age. And when we get to the next
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section of our talk with sharing with each other, I invite
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everybody to share your perceptions and insights along
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these lines so that we can together get a better and fuller
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picture of things. So let's look at some of the
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forces at work in the world and see how they're impacting this.
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We all rely on the Internet. We're having our get together on
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the Internet today. It's brought people together
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from all over the world. You can see it as an advance
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towards a deeper communication and building of a net of oneness
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between people. And at the same time, the powers
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that are resisting the change, who have the control of the
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past, are using the Internet to become a weapon of manipulation
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and control through the way they feed information, the way they
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skew information, and the way they play upon people's emotions
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through what they put forward with massive amounts of power.
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So the question is, how can we understand the Internet and use
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it as a positive force of building a new consciousness?
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And how can we avoid the snares of the past masters of the
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universe who want to enslave us using the Internet?
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It's an interesting question. This will be a major task for us
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as we can't always rely on what we see anymore.
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We have artificial intelligence now and they have computers that
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can recreate things and make them look so real that we no
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longer can use the adage seeing is believing, seeing and hearing
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our perceptive sentences. Senses no longer tell us what
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the truth is from the falsehood, so how will we determine that
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the mind, with its reliance on the senses cannot do that?
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And so we now come to the question of can we develop an
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intuitive sense that can disclose the deeper inner hidden
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truth behind the appearances that our mind has become
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ensnared in through the Internet and through artificial
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intelligence, we have quantum mechanics.
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Physics has now gone beyond the stage of the ability to measure
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and define physical reality. The deeper the physicists have
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gone, the more they have realized that matter is not
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real. It is energy, condensed,
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solidified, brought down to a vibration that holds it in a
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form for a period of time. And as they went further, they
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started realizing that energy isn't real.
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Energy is consciousness, and we have scientists today who are
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deep in the field of quantum mechanics, who talk about spooky
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action at a distance, who speak about quantum entanglement,
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where 2 things, whatever they might be, separated from one
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another, automatically react to each other instantaneously at a
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distance and without direct physical or other observable
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connection. What does this mean?
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How is this happening? In a rational, logical,
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mechanical world? Such things can't not happen.
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And now we have computers being developed that no longer just
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measure ones and zeros, which is the rational, logical,
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intellectual way to do it. It's either on or it's off, one
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or zero, on or off. That's no longer the basis of
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computing. In the future, they're going
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into what's called quantum computing, and they started
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using things called qubits, which, without getting too deep
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into quantum physics, basically says that there is a
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superposition where both on and off are coincident with each
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other. And it's only at the moment of
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observation that you can determine which way the switch
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has moved. This is the famous story of
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Schrodinger's cat, who's in a box, and you don't know whether
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the cat is alive or dead until you observe the cat.
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And so until the observation, the cat is both alive and dead.
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And they turn this into computing now.
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And now they've gone beyond that to what's called Q modes, and
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they have a computer now that can solve in a microsecond
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problems that would take standard 10 computers, 10s of
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thousands of years to solve. And they're able to do it
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without the logic of the rational intellect of ones and
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zeros. They've gone beyond that.
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And this to me is a sign on the physical plane, if you will, of
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the kind of transitions that we need to make as we move into the
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subjective age. Another sign of the of the
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subjective age is actually what I would call an opportunity.
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It's space exploration. And you say, well, how does
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space exploration bring us to a subjective age?
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Well, our viewpoint on the world is all based on each ego
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individual looking at the world and relating to it from that
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standpoint, and we don't see the bigger picture.
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But when you go outside the earth and you see the Earth and
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all of its beings and its operations and everything else
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has one small, fragile, unified existence, it automatically
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changes your viewpoint away from the ego standpoint to a more
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unified global standpoint. And we have reports from various
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astronauts, like Neil Armstrong, for instance, who came back and
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his life was transformed and he went into the field of the study
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of consciousness and how to move beyond the limits of the logical
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intellect. So now we come to what I would
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call a negative sign, but an important one.
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Whenever there is a transition from one structure to another,
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from one age to another. Just as we saw a conflict
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between religion and science, the fact that there is an ever
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increasing resistance to change is itself a sign that a change
35:28
is coming. The powers that control the
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intellectual, rational, mechanical automation age of
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humanity feel threatened and they are vital beings.
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They, they feel the energy change and they're trying to
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preserve their power. One of the reasons they're now
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trying to harness and control the Internet and manipulate
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people is for this reason, but also the way they, you know,
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they, they try to stop people from voting.
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They try to tell people how to live their lives.
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They try to control all the finance and influence in the
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world. These are all external things,
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but they are very big signs that somebody doesn't like the
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feeling of where things are going.
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They're afraid. They're afraid they're going to
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lose their power and influence. And so this very resistance to
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change is itself a sign that the subjective age is coming.
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It's pretty clear from my view, and that's what we're going to
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be sharing here in the next few minutes, that the coming of the
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subjective age is actually inevitable.
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Human evolution, or the evolution of consciousness going
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larger than just the human, moves in an upward spiraling
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direction to increase the power of consciousness over time and
37:13
through development. So when we see physical and then
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vital and then mental, we see that there has to be a next
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phase because the current phase is reaching its limits.
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And the pressures of the existential crisis that we've
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spoken about are more or less forcing us to look within
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ourselves to try to understand why it is we're here, who we
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are, what we are, what our lives are all about.
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Or, as Hari Das Chaudhary so beautifully said in the poem the
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The Quest that we're really seeking the self.
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Who? Who and what we really are.
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The natural process of maturing as a species has LED us to the
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edge where we really can't go much, if at all, further without
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moving to a new way of knowing and a new understanding of our
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role in the universe and in this creation.
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And that is the inevitability of the subjective age.
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So with those thoughts and that background, I wanted to engage a
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dialogue here because we're, you know, we're all guru by we're
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all learning and growing together.
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And while Kundan has been kind enough to ask me to participate
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today, as far as I'm concerned, we're all able and should be
39:13
able to share and develop this further.
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And so let's open it up. Thank you, Santosh.
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That was a wonderful introduction to the dialogue.
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I see Baman sand up. So Baman, please come in.
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You're on, you're on mute. Please unmute.
39:41
Sorry about that. Just wanted to thank you very
39:44
much. It's just very intriguing and
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and I think you covered a lot. Sorry to jump in real quick here
39:51
because I need to leave at 3:00. So I'm sorry for that.
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And now, but regarding the question of how things are right
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now, one possible way that I can look at things is that I see.
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Like to be broad categories of, of, of people.
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And I keep in mind that, you know, even we're though we're
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talking about collective movements here, that there's
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large individual differences among human beings always.
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So within these categories there will be a lot of differences as
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well. But one category seems to be
40:31
that, you know, people who embrace either evolution or
40:37
change or progress in general. Now some of the cutting edge of
40:42
these people may be actually evolutionary thinkers and, and
40:46
even Mystics and so on. And then some could be just, you
40:50
know, modernist scientific progress type of people and all
40:54
of that. And then the the other category,
40:58
having been exposed to the dilemma that's upon us right now
41:01
that you outlined very well, seem to be reverting back to
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mythical consciousness and to religious consciousness and
41:09
conservatism and, and all that. And a 1/3 category that I think
41:15
used to be smaller but is increasing right now,
41:17
unfortunately, is the people that are caught in between.
41:20
I don't know which way to go. You know, they don't know if
41:24
they want to go back to probably not, but they're unable to get
41:28
themselves together to create a life situation.
41:34
Like you said, sixty, 7080% of people are just trying to, you
41:38
know, live a decent life. And if anyone fails in the
41:42
modern day, especially in countries like the US, you go
41:46
down really quick. So there's no chance to, you
41:49
know, sit down and and decide what you want to do.
41:53
So that creates a kind of a framework for mental illness.
41:56
And that's what's what's, you know, expanding.
42:00
And just one example of it is despite all the decades of
42:05
treatment of depression, now we're having, I know all these
42:08
drugs and, and methods for having the most amount of
42:11
depression and spreading into the youth and, and the young and
42:16
the teenagers. So having said all of this, I
42:20
just don't know which of these forces are going to win and, and
42:25
what's going to happen. I just don't see the
42:26
possibility. So I'm putting this out to the
42:29
group as well as a question. I don't see one group winning
42:33
and, you know, settling the the matter.
42:39
But I just wondered how how these tendencies are going to
42:43
pan out and, and how they do to me determines how fast we're
42:49
going to move into a subjective age, at least for a certain
42:53
number of people. But anyway, I just leave it out.
42:55
I don't have any particular answers.
42:59
Well, I'm very intrigued by your insight here.
43:03
And at some point Trior Obindo actually discusses this question
43:11
and points out that the attempt to go backwards to a more vital
43:17
age is doomed to failure because nature in and of itself wants to
43:26
move forward. And so there will be
43:30
retrogressions, there will be resistance and obstructions, but
43:33
eventually that transition takes place.
43:37
And of course not every being moves forward at the same pace,
43:42
as you're pointing out. So there will be many people who
43:48
take each of the positions you raised and it doesn't mean that
43:54
humanity as a whole hasn't moved itself forward and that specific
43:59
individual souls who are maturing haven't themselves
44:05
shifted their awareness. It's a progression over time,
44:11
not sort of like an on off switch.
44:26
Yes, Michael, please come in. Santos, thank you so much.
44:32
I particularly appreciated your introduction or for me
44:37
reintroduction of quantum physics and the whole concept of
44:41
the pressure amounting pressure in nature to produce change no
44:48
matter what forces may be up, may be resisting it, but the the
44:53
nature seems to always win. I notice that you use the word
44:58
consciousness several times and I usually when I'm in a
45:01
conversation and people are using the word consciousness
45:04
multiple times, I, I want to know what they are, what, what?
45:08
And in this case, particularly you, Santos, what what do you
45:12
mean when you use the word consciousness?
45:17
Well, consciousness is the principle of awareness, and Rene
45:27
Descartes said that I think therefore I am.
45:31
But that was a limited construct of consciousness.
45:37
Awareness is larger than thinking, and it can eventually
45:43
embrace the oneness of the whole manifestation if you're looking
45:52
at the consciousness of the divine.
45:55
And if we associate ourselves with that, we begin to shift
46:02
away from the thinking consciousness to the larger
46:08
intuitive or super mental or whatever levels of awareness we
46:16
can move into over that evolutionary period.
46:21
It's a very broad definition. It's not like Descartes or
46:27
Nietzsche or some of the others who had very specific narrow
46:31
definitions. This is generally awareness.
46:37
Thank you. Wenji, please unmute yourself.
46:56
Wenji, can you hear me? Please come in.
47:09
Maybe I'm not able to reach him. Michael, why don't you unmute
47:12
yourself and come in, please? So my thoughts are along the
47:19
lines as Baumann brought up, although he was referring to the
47:24
individual level, I'm thinking of the social level.
47:30
We would think that with all the problems we're having globally,
47:35
that a commonality of global consciousness would be the
47:38
national response. But we're actually seeing a very
47:41
different thing nationally. I mean, to be liberal has become
47:48
a bad word or to be a globalist is a bad word.
47:52
You know, in this country we have America first all around
47:57
the world. That sort of thought is emerging
48:01
in Hungary, in Italy, you know, my tribe.
48:09
So we have this, this conflict and you know, I, I wish, I wish
48:17
the future was as cheery, but we're having some strong forces
48:21
in the other direction. I totally agree with you, and
48:28
that's why I tried to point out that in a period of
48:33
difficulties, those who hold power want to maintain their
48:40
power and resist change. And they raise up fear of
48:46
transitions and change in the people they can control and
48:51
manipulate with today tools that have never before been at their
48:56
disposal, like the power of the Internet.
49:00
And so the resistance to change is enormous, and it manifests
49:06
itself in the ways that you're mentioning here.
49:10
And it just means that the power of the change itself is also
49:14
enormous because you wouldn't see that level of resistance.
49:20
For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction if
49:23
you look at the world of physics, traditional physics.
49:29
And so to me, that's a sign that there's a powerful, as yet very
49:37
much unseen power of change that's taking place.
49:44
And you associate that with the necessity of the change.
49:49
Because the mother once had a, a, a brief saying it's truth or
49:55
the abyss. That's really the choice that
50:00
humanity will eventually have to make.
50:03
And the more stark and the more resistant the forces are, the
50:08
more they try to recapture the past to prevent the future, the
50:14
more that stark choice rises up. Because we're not solving it.
50:20
And at some point, we as a species either have to decide to
50:25
survive or die. And I guess my money's on
50:32
survival. You know, I, I want to chime in
50:41
a little bit here. I feel that there's one positive
50:45
movement which is occurring that we have not spoken about, and
50:51
that is the movement of postmodernism in academia.
50:58
Postmodernism also has negative sides.
51:00
You know, we can definitely dwell on those, but I feel
51:06
postmodernism contributing immensely to what Shurban has
51:11
has called the coming of the subjective age.
51:14
Why is that? Postmodernism is critically
51:19
examining, you know, the age of reasons and individualism.
51:23
So it's basically critically examining the entire framework
51:30
and field of modernity. Unfortunately, it has a
51:37
limitation. It has, it has a limitation
51:40
because after a certain point of time it begins to define itself
51:46
or it begins to get defined by the same contours that it is
51:52
trying to deconstruct. Let me explain.
51:59
You know, we said that it is attacking the cornerstones of
52:04
modernity, Objectivism and objectivity is, you know, our
52:09
two major pillars of modernism. Now, after it does its entire
52:21
thing, and by that I mean the deconstruction, it comes up with
52:29
certain consequences or results. Earlier, you know, we're looking
52:38
for truth, which was objective. Now what postmodernism has done
52:44
is that it has made truth subjective, subjective with
52:48
respect to paradigms and individuals, cultures and so on
52:53
and so forth. Now the problem here is that
52:59
when we say that truth is relative, we are making an
53:03
absolute statement about the nature of truth.
53:06
When we are saying that that truth is subjective, we are
53:10
making an objective statement about the nature of reality.
53:16
So postmodernism takes us to a particular point, but it is not
53:21
able to make the quantum jump which is required to go further.
53:28
And I personally feel that within academia, after a certain
53:31
point in time, there will begin to get a language developed
53:37
which is talking about going beyond the realm of subjectivism
53:40
and objectivism, beyond the realm of relative and absolutely
53:46
and so on and so forth. And that in my understanding,
53:51
can only happen through a deep subject, subjective exploration
53:59
of the truth which is in which is in common in communication
54:05
with the objective nature of reality.
54:10
You know, there are there are certain truths that are out
54:13
there, but all of us individuals are having our unique
54:19
relationship with that nature of reality and truth as well.
54:26
You know, the from from the Shurabindonian perspective that
54:33
one reality begins to gradually get broken into multiplicity and
54:42
every component is in a unique relationship with that ultimate
54:52
that will in eventually will have to be will have to be found
54:56
out. And for that I think, you know,
55:01
postmodernism is making a profound contribution.
55:07
It has not been realized, you know, at a greater level, but I
55:12
think it will be. In fact, long time ago, you
55:17
know, right at the time when I came to CIIS, I had written a
55:23
paper called Beyond Modernism, the Meeting of the East and
55:28
West. You know, I sort of refined that
55:30
and it got published as relativism, self referentiality
55:34
and Beyond mind. I have, I have taken the
55:39
approach of the philosophy of science here.
55:44
The results are very quantum like.
55:46
You know, I can, I can share that article with the group.
55:49
I'll do that, you know, maybe tomorrow, but I think that, you
55:54
know, that there is one very positive movement which is
55:58
occurring. And if we really look at this,
56:06
this trajectory, and if we also begin to look very closely at
56:11
the limitations of, of postmodernism in order to not
56:17
resurrect the paradigm of modernism, we will be able to
56:22
get into a framework which transcends both modernism and
56:27
postmodernism. Or let me put it this way, you
56:29
know, it's transcends and integrates this binary divide of
56:34
modernism and postmodernism. And, and that is the future, you
56:39
know, and that's, that's, that's, this is a profound
56:42
movement which is occurring in academia.
56:44
So with that, you know I will, I will step back.
56:51
So those I was wondering, you know how you would respond to
56:54
this? Well, I totally agree with the
56:58
idea that education and this movement is part of the
57:06
essential transition that's happening.
57:09
Certainly there are many, many, many signs of positive direction
57:16
taking place in the world. And of course, some are moving
57:21
forward a lot, some are moving forward a little bit, some are
57:24
just preparing the ground. But the the entire movement of
57:31
education is somewhat mixed. But the movement of individuals
57:36
who are seeking for a deeper truth, whatever path they choose
57:42
to follow, is itself creating a new paradigm for relationships.
57:51
Whether it's the environmental movement or the yoga movement or
57:56
the spiritual movement or the changes in education.
58:00
They all are part of this larger transition where people are
58:05
seeking for something real and authentic, not something that
58:11
gets predigested for them by elected leaders or church
58:20
leaders or or others who have assumed the mantle of authority.
58:24
They want to actually experience things for themselves and find
58:27
out what their lives are about. And that's happening all over
58:31
the world. Even if it looks like the
58:35
authoritarians are winning, they're not winning the hearts
58:40
and minds of the people. They're just controlling the
58:43
outer machinery. Right.
58:47
And, and it will also depend upon, you know, the, the vantage
58:52
point from we are looking at these things like, let's say,
58:56
you know, let let's take one more example.
58:58
And this is very similar to this conflict, you know, which is
59:02
occurring between modernism and, and postmodernism.
59:06
You know, if we go back 200 and 200 years ago, there was this
59:11
conflict between Enlightenment and Romanticism, you know, and
59:18
of course, you know, this conflict led to the the creation
59:25
of two world wars. And in terms of the
59:31
consequences, you know, for Europe, the results were
59:36
absolutely devastating. But what is the positive that
59:42
came out of the Second World War?
59:45
Most of the colonies got liberated.
59:47
You know, most of the colonies before in four years after the
59:52
conclusion of the Second World War, you know, most of the
59:56
British colonies were liberated. So there's, you know, there's
1:00:02
this definite churning which is going up going around at this
1:00:06
point in time. And I personally feel that you
1:00:09
know that as the practitioners of integral yoga.
1:00:14
You know, we should be looking at things, you know, from a
1:00:17
cosmic perspective. We will need to take into
1:00:20
account many different that many different vantage points.
1:00:26
And I think that may, you know, even intellectually give us a
1:00:31
more comprehensive picture then we may have at this point in
1:00:36
time. You know, of course, the
1:00:37
ultimate is to go beyond the intellect and sort of tap into
1:00:41
this intuitive understanding of things that Santosh brought out
1:00:48
so eloquently. So with that said, you know, I
1:00:52
will just step back. Arvindji, please unmute yourself
1:00:58
and come in. OK, Santosh, thank you for a
1:01:03
very nice talk and giving us a perspective on subjective age
1:01:09
and see Arvind those ideas. Yeah, my, my question is
1:01:13
probably related to little bit what Kundan was telling in a
1:01:16
larger perspective. I think looking at a practical
1:01:21
level, as some other thinkers also have said, if you look at
1:01:25
the centre of gravity of the the population of the world, it is
1:01:30
still at the conventional stage or mythological stage.
1:01:34
And still the the centre of gravity has yet to move to the
1:01:39
rational stage. And there's no doubt that the
1:01:42
ideal stage is subjective age or age of consciousness.
1:01:46
But looking at the current situation, I wonder if many of
1:01:51
the problems, whether it's environmental problems or
1:01:53
political problems or growth of authority, authoritarianism, is
1:01:58
it not related to that? The forces want to regress in
1:02:02
the sense that they want to move away, regress from rationality
1:02:06
to conventional stage so that their control is not lost for
1:02:11
the bosses. So within the rational
1:02:17
population itself, let's say if the centre of gravity move to
1:02:21
rationality and the whole world is of more, more people in the
1:02:27
rational level, within that itself may not then be integral
1:02:31
approach. Rationality taken to highest
1:02:34
level. One can have the integral
1:02:37
solutions for all the major issues that the world is
1:02:40
concerned about, whether there's a food crisis or environmental
1:02:45
issues and other things. So is it not the first order
1:02:48
that the world has to move to become more rational?
1:02:53
Moving to a subjective age looks like a tall order and there's no
1:02:57
doubt there's an ideal stage. But what is the, what do you,
1:03:02
what do you comment on the nest city for moving the whole
1:03:06
humanity going towards more rational stage, a more rational
1:03:10
level of consciousness? Well, I would jump in here.
1:03:14
I, I agree with your analysis. First of all, and the, as I
1:03:24
started to try to describe at the beginning, I don't see that
1:03:27
the development of a subjective age means the abandonment of the
1:03:32
rational intellectual powers, but the application of them in
1:03:38
the field where they can be useful and the recognition of
1:03:43
the place where they reach their limits and need to be guided and
1:03:48
tempered by the guidance of that next level of consciousness.
1:03:54
To the extent that the world is still mired in the conventional
1:03:58
stage, yes, they need the rational, organized approach to
1:04:07
create solutions that they can live with.
1:04:10
Not everybody moves at the same pace.
1:04:13
And as you rightly point out, the center of gravity is still
1:04:18
very much stuck in the conventional phase, and there is
1:04:24
pressure still between that phase and the intellectual
1:04:29
phase. But the leading edge of the
1:04:33
intellectual and rational phase is meeting its limits and
1:04:38
reaching its unintended consequences, which means that a
1:04:42
certain amount of that next transition needs to begin to
1:04:48
temper that, to utilize it, to organize it, and to ensure that
1:04:55
it's used in its right place as a benefit and not simply allowed
1:05:01
to create all those unintended consequences we spoke about.
1:05:09
Yeah. Thank you.
1:05:18
Yes, Berlin, Linda, please come. In follow, following up on what
1:05:28
Santosh just said, we, we have to remember as, as Debashish
1:05:34
said so wonderfully before this group, that this is vijana, this
1:05:41
is integral yoga. And we have to do our best to,
1:05:47
to hold those two things at the same time to, to live in this
1:05:53
world, to, to do what we are instructed as best we can
1:06:00
discern to do in this world and, and still hold that cosmic and
1:06:07
even transcendental view. And in that context, I, I just
1:06:16
want to remind everybody, as I was recently reminded, that
1:06:21
every four years doesn't just bring an election in this
1:06:25
country. It it also brings a celebration
1:06:29
of the supermental manifestation on earth that that golden day
1:06:36
celebrated on the 29th of February when the mother, as she
1:06:43
described it, pounded on the golden door and, and things
1:06:48
changed. And I, as I've told some of you
1:06:54
fairly recently, I, I, I remember a day at the 20, let's
1:07:03
see the 2011 ALM at Spiro Dendos Adnapita, where an Aster Patel
1:07:10
had a group of people at her feet in the meditation room
1:07:17
describing how substantially she felt this super mental
1:07:25
manifestation around her. And it, it was transformative to
1:07:29
me because I suddenly was aware of something new.
1:07:33
And it is, there is something around us where we, we don't
1:07:38
bear this burden on our own individual shoulders.
1:07:42
There's, there's, there's force around us that we can and reach
1:07:48
out and, and, and touch on, on our, on our best days, perhaps.
1:07:54
So just wanted to, to bring that up following some somewhat
1:08:01
intellectual discussion. And it's all part of the same
1:08:06
same weave, all part of the same fabric.
1:08:09
We, we need to address this in so many different ways as best
1:08:14
we're able, yes. Hey, Margaret and Jim.
1:08:35
Well, perfect timing, Earl. I will.
1:08:40
First of all, thank you, Santosh, because it's such an
1:08:43
important topic and how it's approached is so important and
1:08:49
you're your focus and how you presented this and giving us an
1:08:52
opportunity to weigh in. And I'm following Earl on my
1:08:58
perspective where Jim and I are in a group, A Zoom group where
1:09:06
we were just reading Chapter 22 in synthesis of yoga on Vigyana
1:09:14
and Gnosis. So just what Earl was saying and
1:09:19
in that there's a discussion of the intermediate steps from the
1:09:29
rationale to beyond mind. And I want to encourage all of
1:09:36
us to share resources, whether it be Shira Vendo or others of
1:09:43
support for developing the intuitive mentality so that we
1:09:47
can take in these subjects like the subjective age and the push
1:09:54
back. And as Earl was saying, stay in
1:09:58
the consciousness of the intuitive mentality so we can
1:10:02
evaluate and take action from a wider, higher consciousness that
1:10:09
can supremely make a difference and work collectively as well.
1:10:13
So. Thank you, Margaret.
1:10:20
Before I invite Charles, you know, I just want to read
1:10:24
something from Shiravinder's The Human Cycle Conditions for the
1:10:30
Coming of a Spiritual Age. And he says on page 233 of the
1:10:39
book that I have. And here the first essential
1:10:44
sign must be the growth of the subjective idea of life.
1:10:51
And I personally feel that's already occurring, you know, in
1:10:53
the in the human civilization and human collectivity, the idea
1:10:59
of the soul, the inner being, its powers, its possibilities,
1:11:10
its growth, its expression and the creation of a true,
1:11:16
beautiful and helpful environment for it as the one
1:11:21
thing of first and last importance.
1:11:27
The signals must be there that are precursors of a subjective
1:11:32
age in humanities thought and social endeavour.
1:11:39
It may take time, you know, but more and more people are
1:11:42
gravitating towards these ideas and they're doing things in
1:11:46
their own ways. Charles, over to you.
1:11:57
Thank you so much, Santosh, for bringing this particular topic,
1:12:02
you know, to us today, this morning or this afternoon.
1:12:08
Something I was reflecting on on as you were speaking and then
1:12:12
sort of connecting and meditating with.
1:12:16
And then sort of goes very much in the line of what Earl was
1:12:19
saying and Margaret, that when we think of Shrier Bindo, Shrier
1:12:24
Bindo, when he was writing these things, he was writing seven
1:12:29
books at the same time and he saw the picture.
1:12:34
He didn't want to write about it until he saw the whole thing and
1:12:39
he was literally writing the whole thing at the same time,
1:12:42
right? So he had this many sided view
1:12:46
and connected with something that was a deeper truth, which
1:12:52
is what he writes about from the consciousness he was
1:12:56
experiencing. The very gnosis that he's
1:13:00
describing is something that he was living in.
1:13:04
And so I, what I was reflecting is like for me to sort of take
1:13:09
in something like this a subjective age.
1:13:13
Well, subjectively, how do I ally myself with that very truth
1:13:18
consciousness for which it's the way that he actually sees all of
1:13:24
this coming from, not from the perspective of the human.
1:13:31
And then the thoughts and the mind and the emotions and the
1:13:34
ignorance, trying to figure out what the truth is, try to work
1:13:39
it out somehow reach or use our minds to sort of have concepts
1:13:45
and think about it, but connecting with our very highest
1:13:50
consciousness first, where all the problems are already not
1:13:56
problems, they're sorted out from there.
1:14:01
When you see from that place of calm, when you see from that
1:14:06
place of truth where it's not a question, it's not something
1:14:11
we're struggling to figure out, it's there.
1:14:15
It is that from that space, we are in a different position
1:14:23
subjectively to sort of work out even what Shri Rabindu is
1:14:30
writing for our minds, right. We have this nice, it looks like
1:14:33
nice philosophy and you know, scholar chomp into it, right,
1:14:38
But it's that's not really what it is.
1:14:41
What it is is what is that truth itself that is getting worked
1:14:48
out. And we I we yoke with that
1:14:51
through yoga to our psychic being to our highest
1:14:55
consciousness. That is possible.
1:14:59
Maybe that is our job for us to work out in as we trans.
1:15:07
We are humans in transition, right?
1:15:09
It's like that that inner out from the highest imagine it's
1:15:16
it's done like you're in that space.
1:15:18
When I'm in that space, when the when I feel that force down,
1:15:22
there's not a there in a way, there is no problem to speak of.
1:15:28
It is all at once one truth 1 Ananda.
1:15:35
So what would it be for us to work from there to learn to
1:15:40
connect with that and work the other way and then to then from
1:15:44
the, you know, really read and understand what he's talking
1:15:48
about. It's a working out for the the
1:15:50
race, but all of that is within us.
1:15:54
The resistances are inside of us.
1:15:58
It's in our parts of our being. So it's sort of like.
1:16:02
So anyway that a little bit of the contribution when we talked
1:16:04
about the subjective aids, I'm thinking, no, me like my
1:16:09
subject, like this other part of me, this highest part of me.
1:16:13
What if I put that in the censor and work the way up?
1:16:18
And then how do things look from there?
1:16:20
Because that's what Trier Bindo did.
1:16:25
He he, he wasn't coming from working it out.
1:16:28
He wasn't hacking his way through.
1:16:30
He saw it, He saw the vision, he had it, the darshan.
1:16:35
It was there and he was just expressing it with words.
1:16:41
But I really appreciate your talk 'cause I think it really
1:16:44
kind of inspired me to think in a deeper way about this.
1:16:50
Thank you. Well, that's wonderful.
1:16:53
And I have to say that the reason I wanted to open things
1:16:59
up today and not just be a speaker was because we're all
1:17:04
sharing this subjective development that we're all going
1:17:09
through. And it's good to share that and
1:17:14
not just have one viewpoint on the table, so to speak.
1:17:20
And I wanted to add one other thought for for us to to think
1:17:24
about. The mother talks about the truth
1:17:27
consciousness coming out and we see in the world around us
1:17:34
unprecedented exposures of what used to be hidden underlying
1:17:40
truths about everything being manifested and being brought
1:17:46
before our eyes so that we can see it.
1:17:49
And as you mentioned, Charles said, what we see outside
1:17:54
ourselves is also what we are inside ourselves, that we
1:17:59
vibrate to that. And by seeing that, it's not to
1:18:03
judge that badly, but to internalize that and work to
1:18:09
remove those resistances, to harmonize those inconsistencies,
1:18:15
to work through those falsehoods within ourselves as we shift to
1:18:22
that awareness that you're speaking about.
1:18:24
Wonderful. I very much appreciate that.
1:18:33
Barbara, please unmute yourself. Thank you.
1:18:38
Thank you Santosh for generating this generous discussion and
1:18:47
appreciated what everyone had to say.
1:18:49
And ending with Charles too. Words often get in the way in
1:18:57
different definitions, so I may be giving different definitions,
1:19:02
but first I think of kind of generalize that we have three
1:19:10
vehicles of intelligence, emotion being one of them, and
1:19:15
then body experience being another, and they being related.
1:19:19
Anyway, everything's related and our minds take over so much.
1:19:24
The thinking that the experiential, which I understand
1:19:30
the mother had a lot to do with trusting the mystery, trusting,
1:19:36
not knowing, trusting that information is coming from in a
1:19:44
different way. And so this and ego has to stand
1:19:47
back and listen from a deeper perspective.
1:19:53
So I just wanted to say that one thing that I think is really
1:19:58
positive in terms of the evolution of at least this
1:20:02
culture and I think and. Hopefully, and in other places
1:20:09
too, in in psychology, there's now an A budding understanding.
1:20:19
Most people aren't trained in it, but a budding understanding
1:20:23
is how people become more superficial and how how that is
1:20:32
different from someone who is more anchored.
1:20:35
And the anchoring comes from, I mean, if we're lucky to have
1:20:40
parents that can really see us and feel us, it's different.
1:20:47
What I'm, what I'm trying to get at is it seems with social media
1:20:53
and we have a culture so based on grasping and owning and you
1:21:00
know, those are real superficial values and you know, the, the
1:21:06
media amps them up. And so apparently the, you know,
1:21:12
we're all kind of on a narcissistic continuum.
1:21:16
You know, we need some narcissism.
1:21:18
So we don't stand in front of a bus that's moving and and then
1:21:25
all the way on up to very, you know, unhelpful places for
1:21:29
community. And so psychology, at least some
1:21:34
like lone voices, and it's becoming more prevalent on a
1:21:40
large level anyway, that the culture doesn't understand that
1:21:52
these people exist. And they're very hard wired,
1:21:55
often like a Mr. Trump, very hardwired.
1:21:59
He is not going to change. And if he ever went to therapy
1:22:02
or somebody, you know, midway on the continuum, say went to
1:22:06
therapy, they might be able to make a tiny change that's
1:22:11
temporary, you know, and would have to watch it like a hawk,
1:22:16
would have to really be like an alcoholic that goes, that
1:22:20
recovering alcoholic that goes to meetings all the time and
1:22:24
doesn't forget. That's a real tall order.
1:22:31
So to really understand who's in the world.
1:22:35
So we don't marry them, we don't neglect them.
1:22:41
So, and to get that there is a superficial and depth difference
1:22:48
to people. And unlike James Madison
1:22:51
apparently who, you know, had everything to do with how our
1:22:54
constitution would be constructed, said, you know, he
1:22:57
really warned, warned against the what did he say?
1:23:01
The morbidly rich and how they will mess up a Republic and
1:23:06
community. And we, we are seeing that rise,
1:23:11
you know, into the like 7 deadly sins kind of place.
1:23:16
And so perhaps we're becoming just more educated in it and you
1:23:23
know, not only from those in the realm of consciousness, we're
1:23:30
looking at this and then for our own education, inter subjective.
1:23:45
We're kind of learning how to hold, you know, the OK we are
1:23:52
the silence behind all the moving notes.
1:23:56
And the moving notes are made-up of thoughts and feelings and
1:24:01
sensations and a jangly nervous system.
1:24:05
Sometimes it's a tall order. And I think also that we're
1:24:11
really called to step it up, all of us.
1:24:15
Anyway, thank you everybody. I really appreciated everybody's
1:24:18
contributions. I can't find my mouse.
1:24:28
Thank you, Barbara. Yeah, mute me.
1:24:47
Seems like we have naturally come to an end of this
1:24:51
conversation. Aparna, Andy, I'm seeing you
1:25:01
here for the first time. Do you want to chime in?
1:25:06
Oh, nice to see some friends and familiar faces.
1:25:09
Thank you, Santosh. I don't have anything to
1:25:13
contribute. Thanks for allowing me to be
1:25:15
present and thank you for all your thoughts.
1:25:18
Thank you. Thank you for joining in.
1:25:21
Thank you very much, Santosh, once again for this wonderful
1:25:24
talk and the stimulation that you created within the community
1:25:29
for people to come forward and share their thoughts.
1:25:34
I appreciate it very much. Thank you very much.
1:25:38
Thank you everyone. Thank you.
1:25:40
Thank you, Santosh. Thanks for any.
1:25:43
Thoughts. Good to see you.
1:25:48
Thank you. Thank you for for gathering the
1:25:50
usual suspects. It's been so marvelous to be.
1:25:55
I'm going for more, trying to buy more.
1:26:03
Thank you. Thank you, Linda.
1:26:04
Thank you most everyone. It's wonderful to see you all.
1:26:09
Bye. Bye.
1:26:09
Bye bye. I.