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Between the Lines: The Sound of Intelligence · The Rooted Soul Podcast

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Good evening. Welcome to the Rooted Soul podcast. As always,
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therootedsoulbooks.com is the website where you can buy the first collection
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and soon enough the second one. And there's a lot of free content on there as well.
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Alan at therootedsoulbooks.com is the email. At alanmcdonaldire is the Instagram handle.
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I'm up at 4.30 in the morning for work and other stuff.
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And I thought now would be a good time to record another podcast.
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I was thinking over the last few days because I was home again last weekend
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and working with John and Brian with two oldest friends on the framework for
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the live show on the 25th of February and,
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the exchange restaurant exchange sessions the MIX hotel Christchurch,
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and I find myself writing it out and rewriting it we know the music and stuff and some of the poems,
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and it's really interesting as you know I find I keep going back to not making
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it so as I've talked with the first collection specific to me and a little more
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universal in a show that people can enjoy that's kind of accessible to everyone you know.
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I was I watched an interview this week from 2002 with Charlie Rose with Aaron Sorkin,
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who wrote the West Wing the Newsroom Sports Night Studio 60 one of my little
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favorites a one season wonder the best work Matthew Perry ever did and just a fantastic show.
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And he said something that really, I thought was amazing. He talked about when
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he was growing up and it really resonated that he was surrounded by people more
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intelligent than him, which I have always found in my life.
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Growing up around the table, you know, which I found with my family,
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kind of smarter people than me, friends, poker tables, bars, et cetera.
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And just, he learned what he calls, I think, the sound of intelligence,
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which I think is amazing.
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I've always liked surrounding myself with people smarter than me, which isn't hard.
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I'm a fairly average Joe.
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And I thought, you know, we talked about great dialogue to him and great writing is like a symphony.
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And it got me thinking about poetry. I'm sure why wouldn't it?
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In terms of what I write, and I often think about, and I've talked about this,
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I actually shared on social media again tonight, something from the summer,
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where I was talking about meditation on loss and how it has a dual meaning,
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but people would think it is just about bereavement of people have left the life and left your life,
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or this life and i enjoy not there's a lot of poems i write that i know what
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they're about that no one else does,
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and that's okay i may never share the meaning of them and sometimes it's you
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know maybe too personal or you don't want to embarrass people or it's a situation
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that maybe people have faced in their lives in different ways,
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and i love the idea of you know when you're talking about a symphony where.
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People have come to me and talked about the meaning that they've taken from,
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a poem that I've written and it may be very different but it doesn't really
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matter as I said before it's I love when people I love writing poetry because
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there's a lot between the lines that's not said,
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and people we listen we bring our own personal experiences to everything and our own slant you know,
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I ever think about a friend of mine who went through serious heartbreak and
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she used to love the old rom-coms and for that period the time she couldn't
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watch them she would be completely well i mean that's not realistic at all and you totally get it,
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whereas when she was in the probably the throes of early romance or whatever,
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you know would have loved them and and did really enjoy them but we bring our
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own personal experience to it,
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and kind of reading between those lines like i was watching a show rivals which i love.
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And I watched the second season for a second time because I realized I was very
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distracted watching the first half of the second season.
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First time around. And I missed a lot. And you kind of, again,
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it's between the lines. It's between the dialogue.
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It's a glance or it's something that you're shown or it's an emotion that's
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displayed that, you know, a lot of these streaming services,
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and it's talked about a lot now, where shows that overexplain the plot.
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And the reason is that we're on our phones at the same time.
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And I know better than anybody else in that regard.
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But when Aaron Sorkin talks about that dialogue and you know whenever there's
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a disagreement in a room there's a scene to be written and I think.
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You know, I think it was Michelangelo who said, you know, I saw the angel in
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the marble and then carved it to set it free.
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You can take your own, we all see, we read things or see art or culture, read it, view it.
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And we take our own kind of piece from it, you know, but around the intelligence of people.
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Like my favorite kind of people to be around are those who are smarter than
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me. Someone who's an expert on a subject I'm not.
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But it's always very important to me that that person doesn't take the high-handed approach.
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You have to be able to break it down to have an interesting conversation with
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somebody who might know less on a subject than you.
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You have to be able to break it down to a level where both parties or all parties
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can enjoy that conversation.
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And I think, you know, my poetry is certainly not, and it's not overly complicated.
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I mean, the stuff that I write now, which hasn't really been seen yet,
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there's certainly more nuance to it.
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There's more, but it's still not you know and i'm not talking about a daffodil
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but i'm talking about something else as i've said before,
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really if i'm talking about a daffodil i mean there's there are some um nuances
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and little hidden meanings in what i do but i like to think there's still gaps in the poetry,
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to bring your own experience like from the first collection i wanted it to be
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you know personal enough for me to, to, for it to matter to me,
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but not so personal that people couldn't really connect with it themselves.
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They can just maybe empathize or enjoy it.
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And I think it's so important. You know, it's T.S. Eliot, I think.
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I mean, I hope I'm quoting him correctly.
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You know, it said a lot of people have the experience, but don't get the meaning.
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And I think poetry is wonderful for that, actually, where you can.
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Read the poem and understand what Heaney or anyone else, what they were meaning by it.
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But I think there's something much more beautiful to read the poem and take
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your meaning from it first. What does it mean to you?
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Now that can be hard with something like Shakespeare, but what feeling are you
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getting from it? What emotion?
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And then delve into the further meaning. I mean, I often think about classical music and I love it.
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I am an amateur novice in terms of understanding it at best,
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but I know what a piece of music makes me feel.
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And delving in then to what the composer was writing that symphony or piece
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of music about just gives us deeper layers of understanding and I think appreciation.
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So when I'm writing the live show, there's always just jokes I want to put in
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there and what might work and you want to keep it open enough,
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but i want to tell a story particularly for irish audiences but i think it resonates beyond,
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where you can kind of go yeah that i know i know what he's talking about there,
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rather than it being you know that you can read between the lines a lot of the
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poems that i write particularly the mantic poems,
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you know some of this as i've said before is creative license some of it is
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personal experience with a bit of embellishment and some of it not embellished.
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But there are meanings and people in there that you don't need to know,
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it take your own experience from it you know i i there's certain types of movies
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for example i can only watch if i'm in a certain kind of mood my friend harry
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who was on the podcast before and will be again,
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is a serious movie buff and an expert on it and a connoisseur and everything
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else and he can just delve in and immerse himself no matter what that is and
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i find it more difficult as i get older You know, I have to be in the mood for comedy or,
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you know, for a horror or a thriller or whatever.
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It has to be kind of where my head is at that time.
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I kind of lost that ability to completely immerse myself.
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So going back to what Aaron Sorkin said.
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It is so important to surround ourselves at times with people that aren't on
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the same level as us. And I mean, they know more on that rare occasion where,
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I know I maybe have more knowledge on the subject.
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I think sometimes I can come across as arrogant, there's no question.
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But most of the time I do try and have that conversation at a level where both people can enjoy it.
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And also when you're, you know, so immersed in a subject or a topic,
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you can sometimes become quite arrogant.
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And closed off in terms of, you know, somebody coming into something new.
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And I think about work and my career where having somebody come in who has less
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knowledge, but leaving it open enough for them that there's no stupid question.
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What do you think of this?
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And they might, they come up with something, you go, gee, I hadn't really thought
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of that actually. That might be the way to go.
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I was thinking recently about a friend of mine who I worked with early in my
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career, who really gave me the building blocks for how I do things now.
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And I don't really talk about my job. I'm not going to get into details.
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But a lot of industries now, you know, I think about the streaming services
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where a lot of the movies they make now, the whole plot of everything is in
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your face. And it's explained four or five times for the reasons I've said.
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And this guy, we've reached the point where in my industry of financial services
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and beyond, it's about data and analytics and MIS.
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What has this person done, not done? What have they achieved,
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et cetera, which is all fine.
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But you can lose the best of what your people do in the middle of it.
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This guy that I worked with.
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He never, for whatever reason, and he reached a good level. He never really
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cared about the credit for it or the promotions or anything else.
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But what he loved doing was, if there was a deal or something to be done and
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it was difficult, he would run between the lines.
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So, and I've done this often, you tap on the shoulder, you have the conversation
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to say, listen, if you want to get this over the line, you need to change your approach.
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You need to maybe step back from wanting this right now. Get the 80%,
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show that that works, go for the 20 later stage or whatever else.
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And he would often do that. And I learned from him.
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And then somebody else, there's nothing wrong with this, would come in and maybe
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take it that last 5% or 10% and would get the credit for it.
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And I remember him being let go. You know, there was cuts going on. This is years ago.
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And a loss around him fell apart when he left.
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And they couldn't understand why. And I remember saying, it's because he's running
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between the lines, making these things work, oiling the wheels,
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but your MIS and your data and your analytics don't see that because it's someone
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else's name at the end of it.
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And that person or those people are not necessarily, they're good at getting
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to the end line, but they're maybe not great at the 80% of the iceberg, you know.
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What's under the water, that work that gets done to make these things happen.
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And they're maybe not as good at that. You know, it's the soft skills side of things.
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And it always brings me back to, you know, I don't talk about words.
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One of the main reasons I don't is, and the same with politics,
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where when I write political poems,
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it really isn't about telling you to take a side or who to vote for.
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It's telling you to step back and look at the whole.
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And if you're going to criticize one side, make sure you're criticizing the
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other, holding everyone to the same account.
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And the reason is that for me, you know, segueing a little bit,
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this is my kind of happy place.
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My, it's removed from what's going on at times politically and otherwise,
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and work as well in the world, but it's a, it's a great freedom that I have.
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It's, you know, it's no different to painting, you know, to me,
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it's like, well, if somebody's painting a picture, you're not saying,
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well, hang on a second, this is going on.
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Why aren't you painting that into the picture? It's just sometimes these things
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are to be enjoyed in and of themselves but it always comes back to,
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what you take and read between the lines and obviously it's harder when you
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read books particularly fiction there's a particular story that's being told,
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but for short stories and for poetry,
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I think it is wonderful to be able to read between those lines and it kind of,
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it gives me perspective at times because you know I can be as I said you know
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I have my view and that's my view and I'm right.
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I try and steer away from that. And this kind of writing helps me with that.
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You know, on Sunday, and we talk about intelligent people.
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I know I've talked a lot about my family. I'm sure they're sick of me talking
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about them, but it's always positive.
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But we sat around a table on Sunday evening, my two sisters,
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my brother-in-law, my nieces and nephews, and over four or five hours,
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the breadth of conversation topics was incredible and so much fun.
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And I was talking about something which I won't go into, but it was current affair.
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And I had a very strident feeling. And as my sisters always do,
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politely but firmly, I was completely wrong.
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I hadn't looked into anything beyond the surface level.
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And they had as they always do look into these things in detail before taking
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a view which is the sensible intel which is about what which is what i mean
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by being around people more intelligent than you so i would often,
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change my view as i did on sunday i went and looked at it this week and i was
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like they're completely right i was going around with a view on this that was completely wrong and,
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that's the importance of being around people who are smarter than you on certain
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things or in my case, most things,
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you know, I still at my age will counsel or seek counsel from people I trust
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on various different things.
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Well, I'm thinking I might do this. Well, I wouldn't do that,
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Alan, because that's the wrong one to do. These are the reasons why.
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And I won't have thought about it.
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But I do consider myself fortunate that I was kind of, you know,
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the experience I gained in life was, yeah, you should.
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Don't always be so cocksure that you're right, you know?
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But anyway, I mean, I don't know if anyone watches the Aaron Sorkin shows,
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but I mean, the West Wing is one of the best written shows and it's an incredible piece of work.
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And some people don't like it because it is, there is dialogue in a way that
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sometimes maybe feels a little unrealistic, but it's meant to be, what would it be like?
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That's what I always say to people. Obviously, it's about the White House and
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what goes on behind the scenes. And it's meant to be, what if these were the
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people that we had in the room?
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Incredibly intelligent people who are willing to be wrong and be proven to be
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wrong and change the approach and to understand that there's nuance to everything that we do in life.
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And it's one of, if anyone's not, I mean, those shows are not for everyone, I guess, maybe.
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But if you ever want to know what good dialogue, great dialogue is like,
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I mean, Aaron Sorkin does it, I think, better than anybody.
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But yeah i think going back to the live show,
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you know i've changed so much of what i want to do but still the themes remain the same,
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you know of an idea for three different it'll be broken into three parts of
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an hour 20 minutes each of i think it makes it easier to write those segments,
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rather than try to write something that's,
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you know it's very daunting when it's an hour it's not so daunting when it's
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i need to fill 20 minutes there's going to be two songs that's five minutes.
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There's going to be three poems. That's five minutes. Okay. It's 10 minutes
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of jokes and stories in each section. And it kind of makes it less intimidating, I guess, for me.
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But the interview really, as I said, just got me thinking about,
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you know, I do, I often wonder, and a lot of people do let me know,
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which is wonderful, and please do, what certain poems mean to them that I've written.
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Particularly the first one, because it is about difficulties that people go
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through, and it is wonderful when someone takes a meaning from it.
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And, you know, a friend of mine, she's a composer here in Ireland, and,
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you know, I think I said this before with the well-known stranger she gave me
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a completely different meaning that i hadn't seen but actually it was in there,
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it was in there the whole time,
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and that's something i've written you know and that's where those kind of conversations
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are things i love i mean i grew up and i've talked about the thursday nights
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with family and uncles grandfathers aunties cousins and And those tables,
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and the kitchen table in our house in particular,
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every walk of life in terms of conversation was had around that table.
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Very few arguments, right? Politics wasn't really discussed.
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Religion wasn't really discussed. You know, those two topics that are always
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said that, you know, don't bring them up if you don't want an argument around the table.
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But a lot of stuff talked about when people forget from different experiences in life.
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And i hope my poetry does resonate in that way,
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and the second collection you know as i said is into five phases there's some
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christmas poems as well but five main phases where you know i want people to take,
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you know what they can and disagree i put a poem a political poem which isn't
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politics as i said it's my it's to stand apart and be objective,
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you know and then there was somebody on that poetry website vehemently disagree
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with what I had to say and then came back and apologized. And I was like,
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what are you apologizing for?
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Delighted with the fact that you're engaging with it at all.
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I get where you're coming from. It's not where I stand on it, but I understand that.
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Those kind of places you know yeah and i met with friends on friday after he
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wants to do view the venue for the live show and over the course of four hours,
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you know there's all these different conversations happening,
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you know i've got groups of friends where you're not having the same conversations
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all the time and the guys from home you know again they're like brothers,
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because we're not seeing each other all the time i guess as well there's a lot
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to talk about in your lives but there's also what's going on in the world and
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you know jokes and stories and,
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you know all this kind of learning from each other you know I kind of my mate
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Derek is there's your little easter egg again Derek are you listening,
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Kirk's one of the smartest guys I ever met, one of the funniest guys I ever
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met. It's a shame he's so ugly, because otherwise he'd have it all.
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But actually, he's a handsome fucker too. And we've learned a lot from each
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other over the years, because we have different interests in a lot of ways,
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where certainly in the past, politics wouldn't have been his thing.
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But physics and what goes on in the universe and science and all that stuff,
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it really is. And we've had some really good debates.
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And i find sometimes i used to feel inadequate because i can't talk to him on
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that level but that's actually what he wants,
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he wants to break it down because it makes him question maybe some things that
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he will already go look this is just a layman's,
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idiotic way of you know and sometimes i'm sure he's just being polite going
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oh my god how do you work in a bank but um we would have these conversations,
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and you know it's even now he'll send me a message and we'll have a back and forth you know,
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but i've learned so much about science and just his views on ai and and the
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world and where we're going with things and he has a much,
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he's a much more positive outlook actually um sometimes than i would about these
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things about the future and i'm i'm i hope i'm optimistic,
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i think we always find a way through but learning from him,
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and other friends of mine you know who are very very smart people um and everyone
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has a different kind of expertise you know.
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But it comes back again to being around people who are intelligent,
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and there's all different kinds of intelligence you know i don't put much stock
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at all in you know someone's qualification whether it's college university whether
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it's work whether whatever it is like when it comes to the art of conversation,
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there are different types of intelligence that bring different things to the table, you know.
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And all of this is in my mind this week because I'm, I'm bringing the framework
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for the live show to John and Brian next week so they can get a feel for what
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it is, but also they have ideas and great ideas. I want it to be a collaboration.
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Terms of our upbringing and everything else where I think we can bring a really interesting show.
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But I think sometimes people feel I'm not open to constructive criticism.
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And as I always say to people in the job, I might initially appear defensive,
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but I will always think about what was said and take it into account.
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I just won't talk to you for a few weeks.
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But it's, you know, I keep going back to Shelby Foote, who wrote the Civil War.
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I mean, Jesus, they're like phone books, those books you might be wondering
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how much is a book by shelby foot cost an arm and the leg see it's it's jokes
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as well that's why you listen to this,
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and he as i said before tells a story it could be a very cold and i'm only starting
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it's going to take me years to get through the three they're huge,
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but he doesn't just tell you the cold going data and analytics and the cold
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sterile facts of the different battles in the civil war,
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and the politics of it you know and how the railways played a part and all this,
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he gives you the stories of the people,
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so he really at the moment where he's weaving in the tale of an early battle,
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into the politics that was going on,
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in Washington at the time and,
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in the White House, et cetera. And he's.
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Slowly getting to know these people too and what they're about so it feels much
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less like a tome on a war and,
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it feels much more like almost like you're reading.
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Semi-fiction is the wrong word faction maybe was that was father malachi martin
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used to call it faction what he would write about the Vatican.
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Again, amazing, amazing man, amazing books. The Windswept House is incredible.
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And he called it faction, where it was his experience and things that happened in the Vatican.
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And then he weaved stories into it. Now, that's not quite what Shelby Foote's doing.
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I think most of not all of this stuff is factual, but it feels like a story,
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right you're you feels like you're reading something that is almost fictionalized
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in part and that's a compliment,
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and again you then get to read a little between the lines if he's talking about
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a soldier a foot soldier or a general and you're starting to learn about their
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family and everything else as to where,
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why they may have made certain decisions whereas a lot of times with this that
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type of writing there isn't really any reading between the lines you're being
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told why this politician made that decision,
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why that general made that decision,
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but you're not being told maybe the life experiences behind it.
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And that goes back to what I talk about, which is reading between the lines,
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you know, and allowing that kind of reading between the lines to occur.
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And I, you know, I think, I actually feel, interestingly enough,
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I've only found it recently, that Shelby's writings, I think it will encourage
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me, actually, and it does, to think about some of the longer pieces that I'm writing now.
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And I do eventually, hopefully, want to write a book if anyone's interested in that.
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You know, but it's between the lines of David Mamet, who's a great playwright.
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You know, as Alvin said, that kind of his philosophy and dialogue is people
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rarely say what they mean, you know, and it's very true.
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We, we kind of, I look at the poetry I write and it's not careless,
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I hope, but some of it is masked in terms of, I don't want the real full true
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meaning of what I'm saying to come out in what I'm writing.
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So you soften it a little or you you put vaseline over the lens to give it more of a soft focus,
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partly because again as i say people can do take what they want from it but
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also you know you're not saying well you see that person over there now i was
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pissed off at them 10 years ago and that's what this is about or whatever it is you know,
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it's but yeah i kind of am robert frost was another favorite poet of mine,
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you know they had no tears in the writer no tears in the reader i think is what he said which is,
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I'm not sure about that.
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There's often been things talked about where comedians, where stand-up comedians
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have to have had a fucked-up life or upbringing.
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And I don't think that's necessarily the case. I do just think you have to have,
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you have to have been brought up to view the world in a slightly different way
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to how others do, whether it's comedy writing or anything else.
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I do think that's important. But it doesn't always have to be from the depths of despair either.
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Like I feel I write now and I perform now because I reached a point in life
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and life experience where maybe I have something to say even if it's just for
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me you know it certainly doesn't have to be,
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you know something that that everyone is going to connect with,
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but I do I go back to that I love that term the sound of intelligence you know,
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it's not bad it's only where you could be in the company of somebody and you just know.
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It's again the people who talk about how intelligent they are generally aren't
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that intelligent in my experience but the person who can sit and keep you wrapped
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and i've talked about the raconteurs i talked about are great examples of this where,
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self-deprecating orson welles took no truck with being called a genius even
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though he was peter used enough so self-deprecating it took the piss out of
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them so much you know and there was one raconteur i never talked about in podcast, which was Dave Allen,
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my friend, my Harry sent me something earlier and he was like,
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this is how I imagine you, the live show in a suit, sitting in front of a microphone.
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And I love that idea because I can't believe I left Dave Allen out,
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who was an Irish comedian and just incredible storyteller.
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And he often said that the reason why he sat in front of the audience like that
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was he wanted to feel like, with a drink, he'd have a whiskey in his hand,
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that he wanted to feel like you were in a bar with him.
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Having those conversations. And he talked about very controversial topics in
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Ireland at the time, about religion and politics and sex and all that kind of stuff.
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And did it so brilliantly. But again, a man who would have pushed back on anyone
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calling him a genius or anything like it.
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And they're often the ones that are, you know, not so hidden in the weeds that
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we sit down and talk to you. We go, geez, there's something really about this
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person, you know, that's just wonderful to talk to and you can learn so much from.
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So apologies to the late Dave Allen that I didn't put him in there.
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I just thought I'd say my peace on this tonight, you know, because I'm doing
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a lot outside of work to try and get that live show.
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Right and ready and I got months to do it, but I want something finalized by
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the end of November so I can enjoy Christmas and then start proper rehearsals in January.
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I hope you enjoyed this one guys I know there's not any red poems in it but,
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and I hope you take your own meanings from what I write and the stuff that I put up on social media,
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and again you know it's take your own meaning from something first before you
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delve in to understand what the person who created it I think,
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meant because it can there's so many things I've read over the years and so
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many books where poetry prose etc,
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art and music where i took my own meaning from it and then you find out down
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the line that the actual meaning or the deeper meaning of it or what was meant
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by it and you still have that kind of dual enjoyment of it you know,
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so with that guys as always it's therootedsoulbooks.com alan at therootedsoulbooks.com,
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at alan mcdonaldire is the instagram handle,
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and as i always say better living within.