Latest / INSPIRE STORY / #0199_ STORY INSPIRE: Independence Day with Glenn Greenwald — Politics, Freedom, Media & Unfiltered Commentary

Transcript

#0199_ STORY INSPIRE: Independence Day with Glenn Greenwald — Politics, Freedom, Media & Unfiltered Commentary · INSPIRE STORY

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Glenn Greenwald, one of the seven journalists, I believe I
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: said there were seven journalists left. I may be exaggerating
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: that number, but you are one of them. Thank you
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: for talking to us. I appreciate it. From your beautiful mountainside, Casita?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know. In Brazil? I'm unsure.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: That's so multilingual.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I try, I wanted to talk to you, um,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: first kind of a broad general question. Are you surprised
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: at how controversial you've become over the last 12 months?
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Is it, is it shocking to you how many people
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: are angry at you and how often they're angry?
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Not exactly. I mean, I do tend to have a
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: very slightly polarizing personality and it's kind of in that way.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: for a long time. So making people angry isn't totally
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: new to me. I've been doing that more or less
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: since I started writing about politics and even before when
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: I was practicing law in Manhattan. And even before that,
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: when I was just an obnoxious kid. But I think
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: what has happened is because of this perception, it's not
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: the reality, but the perception that I have removed myself
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: from one faction and placed myself into another, what generally
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: inspires the most intense anger and hatred are not people
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: who are just against you from the start, but people
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: who you believe have become traitors to the cause or
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: heretics to the religion. And there's a lot of people
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: who are looking at me that way and are really angry.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: It's kind of like a sense of betrayal. And I
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: think that's part of what is being generated there. But
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: I also think it's You know, I mean, I don't
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: want to act like I'm some innocent victim. I mean,
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: I also, especially since I left the intercept and found
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: this kind of, you know, complete freedom and independence have
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: been waging my own little war on a dominant sector
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: of the media. And it's only natural to expect that
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: they're going to wage war back on me. So I
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: feel like it's kind of a two-sided battle and it's
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: not just me standing there all alone and innocent being,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: you know, attacked.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: What in your estimation has changed? The media held a
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: lot of water for George W.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Bush.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Well, can you kill them? I'm kidding. I mean, animals
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: are so... I know he loves dogs.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: But it's just... I mean, it's amazing.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: These people with the dogs all the time.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Dogs and cats.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: Hey, you have to take it on the right way, Tim.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: They're as excited as I am about your show. I
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: was actually supposed to be on Rogan tomorrow and I
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: had to cancel that.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Who's that?
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: Who is that?
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Who is that? Does he have a podcast?
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Go ahead.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I've Rogan.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: The guy from fear factor.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Anyway. Um, What has happened in your estimation with mainstream media?
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Because they did hold a lot of water for George W.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Bush.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: They seem to always covet their position coddling people in power.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: This is my view of it as a comedian. And
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I look at them and I say they like to
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: be close to power. They depend on scoops and they
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: depend on access for stories.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: And I've watched, you know, it's amazing.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: In my own short little meaningless life, I have watched
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Ann Coulter go from, Let's invade their countries, kill their leaders,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: and convert them to Christianity too. We shouldn't be doing anything.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: We have to be America first and take care of
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: our own. And I've watched Rachel Maddow go from we
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: should not be using the military as a tool of
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: foreign intervention to we need to be using the military.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: It's everybody's flip-flop. Values seem to mean nothing.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: And the only thing that seems to matter is this
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: raw lust for, for viewers or for power, what has
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: changed in this last, you know, five years?
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: So the attribute of the media that you identified at
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: the start of that question, which was this kind of
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: deference to power has been there for a long time.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: It's probably more than anything else. What caused me to
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: stop practicing law and start writing about politics in 2005.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: was my observation that the media had become extremely deferential
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: to Bush and Cheney and the war on terror. As
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: you said, it was a bipartisan war on terror. There
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: was very little dissent tolerated, no questioning, and there were
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: all these kind of vital issues, especially attacks on civil liberties,
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: being waged in the name of fighting terrorism that I
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: thought were very disturbing and grave that very few people
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: were covering. And I started writing about politics in order
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: to do that and noticed, of course, that the media
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: was deferential to the CIA, the security state, that goes
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: back to the Cold War as well. So I don't think,
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: I still think that's a huge pathology in media, but
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's new. I think what's new is
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: what happened during the Trump years, which is in a
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: lot of ways, Donald Trump just broke the brains of
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: huge numbers, huge sectors of American society. Think about it.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: If you actually believe and you tell yourself every day
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: and the people that you work with and listen to
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: and who are around you are also affirming this path,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: list of really disturbing conspiracies like the Kremlin has taken
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: over the United States and is controlling the levers of
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: power using sexual and financial blackmail over the White House,
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: that Donald Trump is like this Hitlerian figure who's ushering
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: in fascism and is an existential threat to America, if
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: you actually start believing all those things and saying them
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: every day, you're going to go fucking crazy. And not
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: only are you going to go fucking crazy, but you're
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: going to start to conclude that a whole variety of
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: things that previously were unthinkable to you because they're unethical
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: or way outside of what the role is of the
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: profession that you've chosen now become not only acceptable, but urgent.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: So the idea that you have to do anything and
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: say anything in order to stop this uniquely insidious figure,
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: you have to align with the CIA and the FBI
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: and the NSA, the agencies devoted to killing Donald Trump,
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: or undermining Donald Trump. You have to reunite with the
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: neocons and Bush-Cheney scumbags because they're also against Donald Trump.
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: It radically reshaped the worldview of Financial elites, media elites,
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: political elites, and Donald Trump became this singular figure through
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: which everybody or almost everybody understood the world. And that's
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: what I think accounts for those reversals that you were
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: just alluding to.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: What about Trump was, if Jeb Bush had won, I
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: don't think we would have had this.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: So what about Trump.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Was the catalyst for such a widespread mental breakdown?
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Was it that he was vulgar and crass?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Was it that so many people had told themselves he
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: wasn't going to win? Was it that he defeated potentially
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: the first woman president? What about him specifically sent people
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole?
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think it was all of those things
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: that you just mentioned, but I do think the primary
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: one is that just comportmentally, Trump was such a radical
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: deviation from what we've come to expect from the face
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: of American power. If you actually look at what the
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: Trump administration did, there's almost nothing that it did that
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: is radical from the perspective of the American political tradition.
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: There was very little convergence between the things he was
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: saying and tweeting and made people so upset and the
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: things that the United States government was actually doing, because
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: the whole point of the US government in the post-World
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: War II order is to function outside of the constraints
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: of democratic accountability. They've insulated themselves from elections. It doesn't
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: matter who wins. There's no way to change who they
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: are unless you devote yourself in a very devoted, warlike
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: fashion to undermining them, which is way beyond Trump's competence
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: or desire. He, you know, had the attention span of
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: a gnat. He was, you know, interested in using the
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: office just to like vindicate petty personal grievances, not to
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: radically transform the country, which had its value. But so, yeah,
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: I think it was what, you know, what American presidents
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: really are expected to do more than anything is to
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: be a deceit, a deceitful, prettifying symbol on the horrors
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: of American power, American capitalism and American imperialism. They're supposed
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: to speedy, like erudite, lofty, noble figures like Obama and
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: even like Bush was, and he's like evangelical incarnation to
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: put a pretty face on what the United States is.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: And Trump not only was incapable of doing that, he's
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: just a Bulgarian, right? He's like spent his life in,
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: you know, as a billionaire or a quasi-billionaire.
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: In New York. He's a thrice married gambling tycoon.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is not the person you'd want representing
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: your team.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: Right, but not only did he have no ability to
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: do it, but he also had no desire to do it.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: I think one of the most telling moments was early on,
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: he did an interview with Bill O'Reilly on Fox, and
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Bill O'Reilly said, you seem really positive and enthusiastic about Putin.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: How can you feel so positive about Putin when he
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: kills journalists and dissidents? And Trump said- What? You don't
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: think we have our own killers? We kill a lot
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: of people here, too. Yeah, his quote, we kill a
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: lot of people here, too.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: And as usual, the thing that makes everybody angriest is
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: when you tell the forbidden truth. Right. Everybody knows that
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: that's true.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: But the American president is the last person who's supposed
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: to say that. They're supposed to uphold images of American exceptionalism.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: I think it was just the upset that he just
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: defecated on the White House. He vandalized the noble corridors
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: of power that stand for American exceptionalism. I think that
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: more than anything is what got them so upset, along
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: with the uncertainty that You know, it kind of fucked
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: with everybody's expectations. The New York times is saying there
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: was a 97% chance that Hillary Clinton was going to
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: be elected. She's like a, you know, inside member of
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: the Royal court and has been for decades. There was
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: the historical aspect of the first woman president, although those
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: other things you said that also caused it, but he
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: was just such an unpredictable tornado, you know, sweeping through
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Washington where they all their power and their certainty and
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: their money. And their livelihoods are all based that it
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: was just like an earthquake that never stopped. And that's
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: why it upset them.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Why didn't they kill him, right? Because they killed JFK.
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: They kill certain people. Certain people they don't kill, they control.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Why would they not, in this case, kill him? I mean,
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: maybe they can't anymore. In the 60s, they used to
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: kill everybody. Now, I mean, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, you can go through them, right?
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: Malcolm X.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, they just kill a lot of people, right? Now,
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: I guess they couldn't do that in this case. He
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: won the presidency. So do you think when you had
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: James Brennan and Clapper and all these people that were
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: working to, you know, undermine his presidency seemingly from before
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: he was even inaugurated? Do you think, would you say
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: that was sort of a, am I going too far
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: to say that that was kind of a soft coup?
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Were they trying to manufacture intelligence that got the president
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: impeached and potentially removed?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Was this based on anything real? Was it paranoia?
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, I read the Steele dossier and I've read
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: some of Jane Mayer's reporting and I used to like
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Jane Mayer a lot. She wrote a great book about
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: torture called The Dark Side. And I think she's written
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: some really good stuff. She wrote about the Koch family.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: But some of her reporting on the Russia stuff seemed
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: a little paranoid. What do you think that was? When
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: you look at Russiagate, you look at the inception of it,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: where did it come from? Is this paranoia or was
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: this a coordinated attempt to remove a guy who was
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: elected from office?
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's interesting. We're taping this on the
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: 50th birthday of Julian Assange.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: Yes, I was going to ask about that.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Yes, you might say, well, why don't they just kill him?
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: Because he has been probably the single most effective person
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: in terms of spilling Western secrets in the last generation.
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: And the reason is because they didn't have to. They
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: just neutralized him. They kept him locked away in the
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Ecuadorian embassy for eight years, and now they have him
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: in a high-security prison. prison in the UK, never having
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: charged him with any or convicted him of any crime,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: but just he's been in prison for a decade. That's
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: how I look at Trump as well. He was really
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: a weak president, Tim. He dominated the news, but they
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: did a great job with this concocted Russiagate scandal that
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: really engulfed his presidency for four years. He got impeached twice.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, the second time was because of the January
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: 6th stuff, but You know, the first impeachment grew out
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: of Russiagate, but it paralyzed the administration forever. They were
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: under investigation from the start. And that all came out
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: of the CIA and the FBI. And, you know, it's
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: not like it was completely concocted. I mean, I know
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: this is shocking to a lot of people, but countries
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: do interfere in each other's domestic politics. The United States
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: more so than anybody. So, yeah, the Russians wanted to
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: fuck with the election, just like the Iranians did, just
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: like the Ukrainians did on behalf of Hillary Clinton. And,
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: you know, there were some meetings between the Trump campaign
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: and the Russians that ordinarily would have just faded into
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: the woodwork in the context of like billions of dollars
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: poured into the election. Some Russian bots on Twitter and
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: Facebook were like an infinitesimal, barely detectable presence. So they
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: took this tiny little grain of truth and they exploded
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: it into this completely manufactured but quite dangerous conspiracy theory
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: because it ratcheted up tensions between the world's two largest
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: nuclear powers. And then you had these media outlets who,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: as I said before, were convinced that it was their
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: solemn duty no longer to do journalism but to stop Trump,
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: which are two very different things. And they just started
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: getting fed by the CIA like they have been for decades.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: This just carousel of leaks designed to harm Trump and
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: they just were publishing it without any critical analysis at all.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: So when you say like, why did they kill Trump?
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: Like they didn't need to kill Trump. They got most
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: of what they wanted despite Trump.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Why couldn't they control the way that John Brennan kind
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: of controlled Obama? It was a very close relationship and
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: got Obama. I think we were in seven wars and we,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: you know, had a.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Huge drone war.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Why were they not able to do that with Trump?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Was it mainly personality? Did they, They felt that they
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: had to neutralize him with Russiagate. Why would they not just,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: he seems like a guy that loves adulation. He seems
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: like a guy, was there no other way that they
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: could have, you know, exacted influence on him besides, you know,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: dragging the country through this two year somewhat ridiculous thing?
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: So part of it, I do think his personality, if
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: you look at how Obama has navigated through life, he's
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: always been an institutionalist. He always appeased institutional power and,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: He was very adept at making people feel like they
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: connected to him, that they were doing something subversive and
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: important when in reality, all he was doing was aggrandizing
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: institutions of authority. That's who Obama was. So he came
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: into office with this huge army behind him saying he
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: was going to change Washington. He had no interest in
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: doing that. So it was very easy to kind of
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: mold Obama and integrate him into this existing permanent power center.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: He didn't really resist. He kind of liked that. He
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: found it appealing. So, you know, and he got those
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: like cerebral generals like David Petraeus and loved like special
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: forces and like covert operations more than full-scale invasions. So,
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: you know, they were very happy with Obama. I think
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: it's two things with Trump. One is I do think
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: like his personality, you know, if you look at how
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Trump has always lived his life, I lived in New
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: York 15 years when Trump was, you know, just like
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: a celebrity billionaire, real estate mogul, always on page six
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: or whatever, you know, he was born in Queens. We
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: always had like this huge inferiority complex. He always felt
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: justifiably like the Manhattan establishment looked down their noses at
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: him because of how he spoke, his outer borough demeanor.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: And that's why he was building those huge, you know,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: penises in the middle of Manhattan to show that like
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: he wanted to live above them all. He like always
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: had an inferiority complex, much like Richard Nixon did. And
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: so when you have this inferiority complex, it breeds this
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: like resentment. And when you're resentful toward institutions, you're really
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: not looking for them to like you. You actually feel
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: this hostility towards them because you know that they look
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: down upon you. That's one thing. But I think the
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: bigger part of it was the CIA and FBI's maneuvering
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: against Trump began prior to his inauguration. It happened throughout
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: the 2016 campaign. That was when Russiagate was born in
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: order to help Hillary. They were openly cheering for Hillary.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: The last two prior CIA directors, Michael Hayden under George Bush,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Michael Morell under Obama, so one Republican, one Democrat, both
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: essentially endorsed Hillary in the New York Times and the
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: Washington Post. Both accused Trump of being a Russian agent.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: So this narrative came from the CIA, and Trump knew
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: that they were trying to sabotage him from winning. So
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: as soon as he won, the first thing he did
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: was he turned around and fucked the CIA. And then remember,
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: one of the first things that they did was James
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Comey went to the Trump Tower and briefed Trump on
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: the Steele dossier, knowing that that would then justify news
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: outlets covering it. And that was before he was even inaugurated.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: So he was at war with them from the start,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: and they were at war with him. And I think
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: one of the most telling exchanges, people should go Google
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: this if they haven't seen it, because it's like a
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Rosetta Stone for how American politics works. Trump being Trump,
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: when he saw that the CIA was trying to blame Russia,
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: for his victory, which he felt like it was kind
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: of undermining or delegitimizing what he had achieved, so he
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: was very angry about it, started going on Twitter and
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: mocking them for getting Iraq wrong. Like, why the fuck
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: should we believe the CIA when they say Russia did it,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: when they're the idiots who told us that weapons of
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: mass destruction, Saddam had weapons of mass destruction? Again, things
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: that American presidents don't say that are nonetheless true. And
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: I think it was like three days before Trump was inaugurated,
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Chuck Schumer, the senior Democrat in Washington, went on the
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Rachel Maddow Show, And she asked him about these tweets
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: that Trump was, she was very upset because she loves
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: the CIA. She's very upset that Trump would demean the
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: brave men and women at the CIA who keep us safe.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: And she asked Schumer about it. Schumer said, leaving aside
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: the morality of it, he thinks he's a hard-nosed businessman.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: But even for a hard-nosed, just as a hard-nosed businessman,
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: it's such a stupid thing what he's doing because everyone
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: in Washington knows that if you fuck with the CIA-
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: They have six different ways to Sunday to get back
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: at you. And that's what they're going to do to him.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: He foretold the entire, as you said, soft. Right. Like
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: he openly admitted what you're not supposed to acknowledge.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Most people don't really know what the CIA is or
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: what they do I mean my listeners do and you
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: know I think it's most people think the CIA goes
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: around you know keeping terrorists from flying planes into buildings,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: which I'm sure is a percentage of their job. But
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: from my understanding, the CIA is kind of the enforcement
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: arm of the larger, whatever you want to call it,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: whether it's the military-industrial complex.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Some people have said they use the word deep state.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Basically these unelected power factions in Washington that are made
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: up of this revolving door of corporatists and lobbyists and
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: defense contractors and people that are involved in the extraction
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: of natural resources and high-level people in banking and high-level
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: people in tech.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And the CIA is sort of.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: you know, their, their muscle, so to speak, if they're
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: the agency that's able to kind of pave the way
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: for them to do the things that they want to
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: do is, am I wrong in my conception of what
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: the CIA does and what their, what their function is,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe their primary function.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: No, it's, it's pretty accurate. I mean, you know, I,
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: like if anyone ever asked me what books should I
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: read to understand American politics, I always encourage them to read,
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Any history of post-World War II national security state, like
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot. The Devil's Chessboard is great.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an amazing book.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: The other one that's good is Are You There Vodka?
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: It's Me, Chelsea by Chelsea Handler, where she lays out
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: the role of nation states in the post-Cold War paradigm.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: Chelsea Handler is my favorite foreign relations scholar.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: She knows more about espionage.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: For someone that spent as long as she did drinking margaritas,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: she knows a lot about Russian politics and a lot
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: about espionage.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: As do many people in my business. Many people who've.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Spent their lives talking about their penises on stage are
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: very good at counterespionage.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: I had no idea. Counterintelligence. They're very good at it.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: You know, God bless them.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Do you look at that as somebody, you know, you
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: participate in the country and you see Hollywood and you
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: know what's going on. What is, I mean, I tend
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: to think it is because Trump was kind of a
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: creation of Hollywood and they felt like, like you said
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, when you turn your back on someone,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: when it comes from within, it's much harder to accept
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: than when someone's always been outside of that sphere. But
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Trump is a creation of Hollywood. He was a Hollywood star,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: the biggest reality TV show of his era. But when
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: you see people doing your job, you're a foreign affairs
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: correspondent or an investigative reporter, whatever you want to call yourself.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: When you see people doing that on Twitter who have
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: zero credentials and they are.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: you know, actors, actresses, comedians.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Even some people calling themselves journalists, you're, you have taken
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: real risks. Like you live in Brazil because of the
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: stories you've broken. How, what do you, how do you
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: deal with that? Does that enrage you? Do you think
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: that's funny?
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's, what's interesting is I think I started,
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: I think I was trying to remember the trajectory of
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: like my awareness of you and how I came to
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: know who you were.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: And I think it was probably like, I don't know,
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: maybe six months ago is probably from the Joe Rogan show.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I'm not really sure. And then he just started like
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: populating my social media feed, like this growing weed that
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: was just everywhere. I couldn't get away from it. And
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: I remember watching and I was like, Oh my God,
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: I didn't know there were like comedians who were still funny.
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I thought they were just all like Jimmy Kimmel who,
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: you know, like call Jared Kushner an asshole or like
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: Stephen Colbert who like talk about how Donald Trump sucks
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin's penis. Like just sort of like a slightly
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: more crude version of Nancy Pelosi. Like that basically has
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: become what mainstream comedy in the United States is now.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: It's complete. It's not only not funny, it's pathetic. It's
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: just like all fear driven. It's like just trapped in these,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: you know, like this most stale and primitive orthodoxies. So
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: I think that it isn't just comedy, but like every
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: aspect of culture, you see it with films now, you
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: see it with art, with everything, that it has all
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: become kind of corrupted and contaminated by the Trump years
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: in a way that very few people have been able
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: to escape. And yeah, watching any Hollywood, you know, like
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: escapist thing, like a an award show or whatever, you're
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: going to hear the same shit that you hear from
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: resistance imbeciles on Twitter. Like there's no escape from it
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: any longer. It just subsumed everything.
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• 28:45
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Psycho Las Vegas,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: America's rock and roll bacchanal. If Hunter Thompson and Lemmy
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: from Motorhead got together to make a music festival, it
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: would be psycho. You can gamble, swim, mosh, smoke indoors,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: get wasted, get married, and see 70-plus bands across four
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: different stages at Psycho Las Vegas, August 20th through 22nd
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: at Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino. Good energy there, huh?
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: I will, of course, be performing an hour of stand-up
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: comedy on August 21st. Psycho Las Vegas will feature performances
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: by legendary Norwegian black metal band Emperor. Metal's most recognizable voice,
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Glenn Danzig, Down, Cannibal Corpse, Pig Destroyer, Thievery, Corporation, Exodus,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: The Sword.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: The Flaming Lips, Dying Fetus. The Wu-Tang Clan, parts of them,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: not all of them.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I Hate God, spelled E-Y-E, and the Cambodian psychedelic group
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Dengue Fever. I'm looking forward to it. I don't know
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: anything about any of these bands, and I don't care.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: But they're like in the thing. They go, please include,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: if you have personal experience, stories with any of the bands. Yeah,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: me and Cannibal Corpse used to go out together. Will
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: you fuck, shut up? Will you stop? I saw Marilyn
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Manson in a hotel room when I was a kid.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, a hotel lobby, not a room. My parents
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: didn't bring me to fuck them. It was a lobby.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I thought it was very cool.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Psycho Las Vegas, the first post-pandemic indoor music festival with
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: a bunch of metalheads that are definitely fully vaccinated. LOL.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Taking place at Mandalay Bay. What could be more fun?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: You hear that?
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I'm getting ready for it. My voice is ready. Psycho
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Las Vegas, man. It's a great place to see some
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: dark music and some dark comedy. VivaPsycho.com for tickets. V-I-V-A Psycho.com.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: That's VivaPsycho.com.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: It's going to be wild. Are you a fan of
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Dying Fetus?
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I don't know that band, but I like Danzig.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: It's awesome. Danzig's great. What about I Hate God, spelled E-Y-E,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Hate God? Haven't heard.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Thievery?
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Don't know.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Corporation?
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: I think that's the band, Thievery Corporation.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, Thievery Corporation.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: It's like an anti-capitalist thing, I guess.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll see. Tickets and rooms are limited. Check
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: out the full lineup and purchase tickets at VivaPsycho.com. That's VivaPsycho.com.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: Psycho Las Vegas, buy the ticket, take the ride.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: V-I-V-A-P-S-Y-C-H-O.com.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Now, when you, Julian Assange has been in captivity for about,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: or he's been held hostage for 10 years, I think,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: about 10 years. And he's been psychologically tortured and perhaps
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: physically tortured, we don't know.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: No one is calling this out.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: No major media that I've seen has really been defending
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Julian Assange, and we know all the reasons for that.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: We've listed them in this program already. Is there any
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: hope for Julian Assange?
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Is there any way that he's released, or has he
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: been so broken at this point that even if he
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: was released, it's like they've kind of accomplished what they
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: were looking to do?
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: Um, I don't know for sure. I'm the last time
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: I saw Julian was in 2018 or 2019 when I
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: went to London and spent three straight days with him
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: in the embassy. And he, at that time was very lucid,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: very cogent, like in good spirits. Um, but that was
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: before he was in prison. He was still at the embassy,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: although he was looking very pallid. I mean, you know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: he hasn't been outside in 10 years, right? Like even
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: prisoners in horrible American jails get to walk around in
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: the sun for like a half an hour, an hour
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: a day. Julian hasn't, he literally hasn't touched the sun
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: or seen the sun in 10 years. He probably now
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: has in prison, maybe a little bit, but when he
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: was at the embassy, he was confined to a room
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: and a half almost for a full decade. So he was,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: his health was suffering. He couldn't exercise. He, had no son,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: which is a necessity. You know, the thing that angers
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: me the most about the.
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: Whole situation is, you know, as much as the media
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: hates me, when I was doing this Snowden reporting, like
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: in 2013 and 2014, and the Obama administration was getting
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: very threatening, I couldn't leave Brazil for like a year.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Most of the media was on my side and like
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: defended me. Why? Because I was kind of, I had
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: one foot in their world, right? Like I was at
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: the Guardian, one of the oldest newspapers in the West.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: And then in 2019 and 2020, when I did this
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: investigative reporting in Brazil that culminated in the indictment by
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: the Brazilian government of me, the attempt to criminally prosecute
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: me as Bolsonaro, the president of Brazil, had threatened to
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: do for months, most of the American media, almost all
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: of the American media, in fact, manifested in my defense,
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: like the New York Times, published editorials, denouncing it. With Julian,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: it's completely different because he's never really had even one
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: foot in that media clique. And they spent five years
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: flamboyantly marching around, like, prancing around as defenders of press
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: freedom because Trump would, like, say some juvenile insult about
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: Jim Acosta or post some, like, mean thing about Chuck
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Todd or Wolf Blitzer, and they would act like the
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: First Amendment was imperiled. And here you have an actual
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: grave threat to press freedom, the indictment that has been
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: unsealed that the Biden administration is now pursuing. If it succeeds,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: it will criminalize investigative journalism, the relationship that, in fact,
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: when the Bolsonaro government tried to criminally prosecute me in 2020,
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: they used that as their model. The theory that the
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: US government is using against Assange is the one that
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: the far-right government in Brazil tried to use against me,
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: saying that my relationship with my source had crossed the
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: line from passive receipt of information into an active role
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: in the conspiracy. to steal the information that I was reporting,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: which is exactly what they're using against Sunch. So just
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: out of self-interest, you would think American journalists who pretended
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: for five years to be so devoted to defending press
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: freedom when it came to mean tweets about like blown
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: dry CNN douchebags would be protesting and demanding Biden drop
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: the prosecution, but they're not. They either don't know about it,
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: they don't care about it, or they're cheering it Because
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: they're infantile. And what it really is about, Tim, is
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: just it's pure professional jealousy. Julian Assange has broken more
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: big stories in the last decade than all of those
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: corporate media drones combined. So he is what they pretend
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: to be. And his existence kind of holds up a
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: mirror showing what they really are. Like, why isn't the
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: CIA and the FBI and the NSA devoted to imprisoning, like,
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: Wolf Blitzer and Jim Acosta or like New York times reporters.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: It's because they're not fucking threats to anybody. Right. They're servants.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: So the fact that they're doing it to Julian demonstrates
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: who the real danger is.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Who are the, when you look at the politicians like
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: AOC and people like that, or whether it was Bernie
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Sanders or either the woman with the brain injury, it's
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: forgets Marjorie Taylor Greene. Who are the people that you— and
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: I don't.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Know that she has a brain injury.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I'm speculating that she has some form of autoimmune disorder,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: but it is entertaining, and I have no problem with it.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I think middle-aged women should go off a little bit,
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: and that's a disagreement I've had. I think women, after
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: they can't have children, should get a little flighty and nuts,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: you know, and a little offensive, quite honestly. Yeah, clarify. I, like,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: believe that. What do you think's happened to gay people?
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that for a minute. Because it's not
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: fun anymore, it's moralism. I have to tell people how
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: to live. It's very hard for me to take balls
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: out of my mouth and then tell people how to live.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like it's my job. I like going
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: to Florida and eating shrimp. But now people want me
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: to go to libraries and talk to children and help
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: them realize who they are.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: It's not my job and I don't care. So what,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: what is this?
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: It used to be kind of fun and now it's
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: become this really office politics, bureaucratic, uh, you know, very, uh,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: language driven, kind of like it's weird and strange and
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: I don't understand it and I don't like it.
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: It's really sad. Like whatever is shitty and cringy and
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: repressive and weak about liberal politics. it finds its like
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: lowest point, like its zenith in gay institutional politics.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: Which is really sad because like, we're basically the same age.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: I think you're like five or 10 years older than
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I am, obviously.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: How old are you?
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: When? What?
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: How old are you?
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: 27.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: How old are you? 16.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: So you're wrong.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: So you're right. I stand corrected. So like, I'm a
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: little older than you.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: But no, you know, like, when gay politics was subversive
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: by necessity, Harvey mill radical. Yes. Interesting. Yeah. And like
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: Larry Kramer and AIDS activism.
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Andrew Sullivan to a degree as well.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, Andrew Sullivan was kind of like, ironically,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: the sort of like trying to be the Catholic conservative.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: That's why I like Caitlyn Jenner.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: You need someone, you need someone in the community that
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: just really likes the country club.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and you also want like diversity, right? Like
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: that's the whole point of a liberation movement is not
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: to be constrained in captivity, but to be free in
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: your expression of whatever you do. But ultimately, like the
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: politics are more radical and interesting. You know, we kind
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: of went from like Larry Kramer to fucking Pete Buttigieg. Right.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: You know, that's like for me, the trajectory.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: But also- What's really happened for me in terms of,
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: you're talking about the reversals before on foreign policy and
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: imperialism with Rachel Maddow and Ann Coulter or whatever. It's
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: also taken place culturally. When I was growing up, the
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: people who wanted to control private behavior and culture was
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: the right, like Jerry Falwell and the moral majority and
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: the transvestites. came from the left, like Sinead O'Connor ripping
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: up a picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: And so the left always was the culturally transgressive movement
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: of liberation. It came out of the 60s, obviously, as well,
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: like the Summer of Love, right? And like hippies and
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: all of that. The free speech movement as well. This
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: is completely reversed. The cultural left in the United States
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: has a longer list of rules for how you can date,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: how you can fuck, how you can feel sexual attraction
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: for somebody than the fucking Pope has with his encyclicals.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: They have all this formula for who you can date
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: and ages and what you have to do and they
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: want to control everything. Everything is abuse, everything is harassment.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: It's like watching this mirror image where they have all
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: become this like highly repressive movement that is unrecognizable to
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: me except with reference to what the evangelical and Christian
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: right was in the 1980s. Right.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: It's all become– and even the pushback to the pushback
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: is boring. I don't– like I'm like also it's like
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: trans women– weightlifters. I mean, I know that's an issue,
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: but I can't care about that on either side. I
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: just don't care about the Olympics. And I, I don't
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: care about anyone, man or woman who competes in the Olympics.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it's not a nice thing to do,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: but I just personally, I don't care. I find the
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Olympics to be sort of a large waste of time
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: for me personally. I know that other people attach meaning
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: to it and that's fine. But for me, I don't,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: care at all if, you know, I don't care that,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: you know, but it has gotten to this very weird point.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: It's just exhaustive. All of it's exhaustive. The left is,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: the right is exhaustive. You just get to a point
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: where nothing is new. We have the same conversations in
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: a circular pattern over and over again.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: That's why Trump was sort of exciting.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Because at least there were these new conversations happening.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Now they're all insane.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: The people with QAnon clearly lost their minds and Russiagate
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: as well. What do you make of how we come
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: out of this pandemic?
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: How do you think.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: personal freedoms, and kind of this alliance we see now
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: between big tech and big pharma and health policy and
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: these very powerful, wealthy people like Bill Gates. How do
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: we emerge from this pandemic? Do we emerge much like we,
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: the same as before, or are we now kind of
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: on the road to, you a technocracy where decisions about
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: your own body, decisions about your own health, decisions about
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: all kinds of things, sexual freedoms, are all going to
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: be somehow strongly suggested and or enforced by government policy.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think the COVID pandemic is clearly the
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: most transformative event of our lives, you know, the only
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: thing that probably competes with it is the 9-11 attack.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: But I would say it's probably going to be much
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: more enduring and consequential because it operates on so many
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: other levels. You know, I remember going back to like
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: March or April of 2020 when the lockdowns first began
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: and we were all socially isolated and told we couldn't
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: leave our homes and all those celebrities were saying, stay
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: at home. The idea at the time was people have
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: forgotten this. you just have to do that for a
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: few weeks. The idea is you have to flatten the curve, right?
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Like you have to prevent the healthcare system from being
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: overburdened and collapsing. So you want to make sure the
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: COVID cases kind of stream out in a way that's manageable.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: So you just stay home for a few weeks, maybe
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: a couple months, and then that will enable the healthcare
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: system to gain its footing. And then, but then of course,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: like the lockdowns quickly turned into something much more protracted
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: than that. And back in, you know, March and April
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: of 2020, it was obvious to me there was a taboo.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: Trump was saying, and I think Boris Johnson was as
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: well before he almost died of COVID, that look, yeah,
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: we want to make sure people don't get COVID, but
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: locking people in their homes for months at a time
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: is going to have its own huge cost. It's going
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: to destroy the economy, which makes people sick, it shortens
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: people's lifespan, it causes people to be depressed, it causes
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: mental health illness. There was already huge increases in mental
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: health pathology in the West. Every indicia of like suicide, depression,
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: anxiety disorders, addiction, alcoholism, everyone was already skyrocketing before the
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: pandemic happened. So then you take everybody and you kind
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: of exacerbate all of the deprivations that modern society is
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: imposing on people, the lack of connectivity, the lack of purpose.
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: We don't have like churches anymore or synagogues or labor unions,
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: or like we all live in these tiny little isolated hovels, right,
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: with really unfulfilling jobs. That's what's causing these mental health pathologies.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: People can't get married until they're like 40, if they
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: get married at all. They have to live with their parents.
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: So this exacerbated everything. And I interviewed two mental health experts,
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Johan Hari and Andrew Solomon, and they both said this
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: refusal to take into account the cost on the other
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: side of the ledger from lockdowns, isolation, and the like,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: is mind boggling because probably it's going to be at
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: least as significant as the number of deaths or debilitating
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: effects from COVID. And no one wanted to hear that.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: You weren't allowed to do anything other than singularly focus
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: on the danger of COVID. And it reminded me a
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: lot of like the first few years after 9-11. You know,
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: the reason why mostly I began writing was because there
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: was this obsession on safetyism. Like, oh my God, we're
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: so scared of terrorists. we're ready to dismantle our entire
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: system of government and our culture and our constitutional order
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: in order to protect against it. When the whole time,
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: even at the height of terrorist activity in like 2002, 2003,
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: the chances that you're going to die in a terrorist
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: attack if you were an American was less than literally
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: the chance that you would die by getting hit by
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: lightning or like going out to dinner and eating some
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: contaminated food and dying of it. It was always radically exaggerated,
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: but by forcing everybody by scaring the shit out of
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: everybody basically, it turned Americans into this completely submissive, acquiescent population,
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: so that conservatives who four years earlier were like, don't
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: comment onto our land, we're gonna use our guns to,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: we're meekly taking off their fucking shoes at airports and
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: doing whatever they were told. You saw this compliance that
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: came from this collective fear. And exactly the same thing
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: happened with COVID, but so much worse. not only did
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: people just stay at home for a year, like my kids,
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: you know, missed an entire year of school. I think
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: about what that's going to do to, you know, hundreds
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: of millions of kids around the world. But also Tim,
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: you know, I think what it really did is it
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: centralized power in the hands of already in like, you know,
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: basically omnipotent institutions of authority so that you are no
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: longer allowed to even question the pronouncements of Fauci or
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: the world health organization, or you would be banned from
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: the internet.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: Everybody was happy with that. Everybody was fine with that,
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: even though they proved so often to be wrong. And
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: then you had these corporate giants like Amazon and Google and,
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: you know, Walmart that consolidated their power so much more
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: as small businesses just died everywhere. And so now the
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: whole country is like a country of serfs and renters
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: and who work for a handful of tiny corporations with
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: no competition. Everybody's enslaved to these monopolistic authorities and has
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: been trained to obey authority more than ever because they've
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: been convinced that it's the only way they can survive.
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: So politically, culturally, psychologically, and in every other way, I
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: think the enduring effects of this are going to be
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: much deeper and much longer than people realize right now.
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  Speaker 2: Do you ever look back.
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  Speaker 1: At events like 9-11 where we took 15 pages or
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  Speaker 1: 17 pages out of the 9-11 commission report to protect
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia and things like that? And we, you know,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: people on the 9-11 commission have said that it was
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: set up to fail and Bush and Cheney would only
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  Speaker 1: testify in a closed session together sitting next to each other.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Do you think there's anything more that we should know
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: about that day?
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: And I'm not suggesting that it was like this, you know,
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: a massive conspiracy, but is there something, do you think
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: later on down the line, we will find out things
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: about that day that surprise us or enlighten us to
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: a degree?
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I think you kind of have
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: to pick and choose your battles as like a public person, right?
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: There's certain things that you fight for and then other
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: things you say, I'm going to leave that alone, right?
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Because we all have like finite energy and whatever. But
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: here's what I will say is that why is it?
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Tell me, someone tell me why it is. I've been
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: asking this question for years and no one has an
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: answer that 60 years after the assassination of John Kennedy,
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: 60 years most of the files in the CIA about
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: that event are still classified. Even though everyone involved is dead,
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: what conceivable rationale is there for continuing to conceal that?
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: And you go back throughout all those assassinations that you
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: mentioned about the 60s, even into the 50s, there are things.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: The reason is because this permanent national security state that
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: you had asked me about earlier that got constructed in
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: the wake of the US victory in World War II
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: and that was designed to at least nominally combat communism
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: in the Soviet Union, which also became strengthened after its
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: victory in World War II, that it has done so
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: many things that would shock people if they learned about it,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: that it would shatter the foundations of people's confidence and
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: trust in current institutions today, even though all those people
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: are long dead. So I don't put anything past the
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: US government. In all of these big events, why don't
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: we know whether the FBI had informants in the three
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: groups they claim are behind the January 6th riot, the
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: three percenters, the Oath Keepers, and the Proud Boys? It's
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: inconceivable that they didn't. Of course, they were monitoring those groups.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: We know that the leader of the Proud Boys had
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: already served as an informant to the FBI. Nobody wants
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: the answers to these questions. Because once you start digging
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: too deep into those questions, it becomes impossible to function almost.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: You have to. And me and Joe talked about it.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Me and Rogan talked about it where we said,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: you look at even these, you know, Antifa riots, you
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: saw cop cars that were just left there.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: You saw pallets of bricks on the side of the road.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Like, It did seem like, you know, with the Capitol riot,
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: you saw a cop opening the gate to let people in.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: It does seem like, at the very least, there are
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: forces that want these things to happen, that want chaos,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: that want these things to descend quickly into chaos, and
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: that the result of that.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Will be people that are more compliant.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: And you look at that, and even with, you know,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: the Boston Marathon bombing, the FBI knew who these two
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: guys were, and Russian intelligence said, we told you who
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: they were. Then the FBI came out and admitted we
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: knew who they were. They were allowed to travel back
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: and forth to Dagestan. You know, so there is this
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: idea that they were potential informants.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: They also went and, like, interviewed one of the closest friends.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And killed him. And killed him.
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: And, you know, there were, like, six of them, and
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: they invented some bullshit story about why they did that.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is probably they just didn't want him talking,
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: and they just whacked him, just got rid of him.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: It's like a mafia state.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, you know, If you look at
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: what are the effects of January 6th, the effects of
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: January 6th are that the Capitol Police got $ 2 billion
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: more because the Democrats voted to give them more. There's
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: a new domestic war on terror. There's a new war
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: on terror, the same one that we had for the
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: last 20 years after 9-11, but this time directed inward
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: domestically at, quote, domestic extremists. All of those agencies, right?
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: Like who else scares Americans? Putin doesn't scare Americans. ISIS
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: is gone. Al Qaeda is old. They're all like old
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: villains on their last legs. You need new scary threats
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: in order to justify the continuous growth and bureaucratic power
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: and budgets of these institutions. And now you have it.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: You have right-wing... extremists, white supremacists, whatever you want to
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: call them, very similar. People forget that after the Oklahoma
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: City bombing in 1995, which also has its.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: Own questions about what.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: The FBI knew and all that, immediately arose a very
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: similar narrative. Like on the cover of every magazine, Time Magazine, Newsweek,
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: it was like, white supremacist militias are this huge danger.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: And this is when the internet was first starting to
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: emerge as a real force in American life. And the
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: Clinton administration's primary demand in the wake of Oklahoma City
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: was to have backdoor access to all encryption so that
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: nobody could ever use the internet to communicate in a
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: way that was off limits or out of reach from
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: the US government. Each one of these incidents always strengthens
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: the power centers that are constantly involved in some way.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: And you could just write it off and say, maybe
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: they're just incompetent. They just kind of know in advance
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: about all of them, but they don't figure out what's
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: going on. They don't know how to stop it. Or
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: you can like look at the history of what these
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: institutions actually do and take a more jaded view of
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: what's more likely.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: Right, that some of these events are being actively encouraged
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: because of the consequences and who they benefit. Are people
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: like AOC, do you think she gets, and I already
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: kind of see it happening, where she gets folded into
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: kind of the mainstream of American political culture and then
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: just kind of becomes everybody's favorite girl boss?
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: She, you know, it's funny, when she was running against
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Joe Crowley in that primary in 2018, but no one
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: who knew who she was. One of my colleagues at
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: The Intercept, Ryan Grim, who like has his pulse on,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: his finger on the pulse of like the left wing
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: of democratic politics, the left wing flank. I remember he
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: like emailed me and he said, hey, you know, there's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: this candidate. I think you're really going to love her. And,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: you know, she could really use your voice, like supporting her.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: And I went and looked and I was like, she
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: was saying all this like radical stuff. And it was
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: during the, war with Israel and Gaza, like one of
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: the 10,000 wars, but it was an outbreak of violence
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: at the time. And the Israelis were shooting Gazans at
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: the border, just over a fence, like just randomly shooting
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: at them. And she went on Twitter running for Congress
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: in New York and said, it's time that my party,
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: the Democratic Party, stop overlooking the human rights abuses of Israel.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: And I was like, all right, she sounds good. So
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: I interviewed her. And if you go and watch that
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: interview that I did with her, it went viral at
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: the time. Like that's when people started really knowing who
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: she was. You won't recognize her. Like it's a completely
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: unrecognizable person. The person that I interviewed and then championed
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: from the person that she's become. And it reminds me,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: you know, like I was friends with all those MSNBC hosts.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: I used to be very good friends with Rachel Maddow,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: like when she was on Air America. And then even
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: when she first got her MSNBC show, same with Chris Hayes.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: And in 2011, Chris Hades wrote a book before he
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: got his MSNBC show called Twilight of the Elites. And
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: the main thesis of the book is that elite America
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: has failed. It has no more valid claim to authority.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: And his argument was this concept he called cognitive capture,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: which is that elite institutions have become so perfectly constructed
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: that that anyone who enters them and immerses themselves in
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: them inevitably, not likely or usually, but inevitably will become
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: co-opted by them. No matter how well intentioned you are
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: when you enter them, no matter how resistant you think
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: you are to their pieties, the reward system that they have,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: it's like a perfectly constructed psychological fuck of your brain
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: that no human being can resist. It's just been perfected
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: over so long. And I remember I asked Chris in
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: that interview that I did with him, well, you're about
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: to go have an MSNBC show. What are you doing
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: to prepare yourself to inoculate yourself against this? And he's like,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I haven't really thought about it. And
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: you can see the effects of the fact that he
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: was telling the truth. So you put AOC in Washington
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: and you tell her, hey, you want to be on
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: this committee that'll give you a lot of like social
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: media viral moments where you get to like snap at
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: some like banking executive or whatever. We'll put you on
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: that committee. As long as you shut the fuck up
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: about the attacks you're doing on Nancy Pelosi and our donors.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: And as long as you've, you know, I'll tell you,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: this is actually what has changed my view. You know,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: my husband is a Congressman here in Brazil. He ran
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: for city council of Rio de Janeiro in 2016 and
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: won and then ran for the federal Congress 2018. Now
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: he's a Congressman. So I see it from the inside.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: What happens? He was raised in this really poor slum
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: in Rio de Janeiro.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: A favela?
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: His friends lived there. Like a favela? Yeah, a favela. Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: Very good.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: There's people that aren't worldly, but I am, and every
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: now and then I want to let people know. Do
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: you ever, by the way, I'm going to let you continue,
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: but have you ever encountered the Brazilian wandering spider there,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: Phoenitius Pharaon?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, we lived in this like kind of, you know,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: like forest area of Rio on the top of a mountain.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 3: And frequently those things are fucking terrifying and would enter
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: our house. And I would have to call somebody who
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: was not my husband or myself to go kill them.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: Continue with the Congress.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So anyway, so he grew up in a favela.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: He like, he like actually, you know, he like enter
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: politics because he actually cares.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: It's cute.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: He like seriously doesn't think of it as a career.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: He like really wants to help people's lives improve or whatever.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: So he'll have like a bill.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: That will allocate, I don't know, say a million dollars
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: to build some community center in the favela so these
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: kids who are eight and 10 have things to do
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: and don't get recruited into drug gangs. Actual things that
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: will help people. And then he'll go to the scumbag
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: leaders of the Congress who control what gets on the
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: floor and he'll be like, can you help me get
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: this bill on the floor? And they'll say to him, yeah,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 3: we'll let your bill come up for a vote and
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: we'll even make sure it passes. but we need you
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: to make sure that you and your faction vote for
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: this corrupt giveaway to our funders and lobbyists. Like we'll
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: do a deal. You vote for this. And then you're
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: suddenly in the position of like, do I stand on principle? Right.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: You know, and just say, go fuck yourself and then
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: get nothing for the people who sent me there to
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: help improve their lives. And I get to feel good
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: about myself, but do nothing. Or do I make that compromise?
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: And then like the more you make that compromise, the
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: more you get sucked into that system. And before you
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: know it, you no longer can distinguish between what's really
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: the compromise and what's not.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: What's the way around it? It just seems like human
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: nature is kind of inherently flawed. And that no matter
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: what system you set up, you're going to have something
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: like this.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, you could get public money out
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: of politics. I mean, good luck. That seems like a
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: good idea. But I mean, then you'll just have.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: You know, the Epstein and the Ghislaine. You'll have like,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: there'll always be kind of ways. There'll always be things
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: people want that they can't have that are provided to them.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: There's some illicit, and they'll always be controlled.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: You know, when you look at the Epstein situation, how
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: many elected officials are blackmailed, bribed, owned, controlled, you know,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: with sex, with drugs, with things that they did, cheating
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: on taxes, businesses they had years ago. Like how much,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: how big of a scope do you think that is?
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say, right. That's one
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: of the things that never got investigated because of his
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: unfortunate and tragic suicide in prison. Yes. And yeah, I
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: think human nature, if you just look at history, human
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: nature is a really ugly thing. And so it's almost
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: impossible to construct a politics or human institutions that aren't
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 3: plagued by these kinds of pathologies. On the other hand,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: we do as humans also have this kind of capacity
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: for compassion and empathy because we're political and social animals.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 3: We do have a kind of better side that can
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: be appealed to. So I don't know, I've kind of
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: come to the conclusion that what humans really do need
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: is leadership, like strong, charismatic people who they follow, who
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: are gonna be imperfect, who are gonna do dirty deals
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: because that's just the nature of how you wield power,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: but who just on balance are gonna make things somewhat better.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the most of what you can
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 3: ask for and hope for.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very rationalist view. Do you like Brazil?
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Will you stay? Oh, yeah.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: The first time I ever came here, I got here
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: at night. I woke up the next morning. I was
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: in Rio with my partner at the time. And I
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: told him, after we walked around for two hours, I said,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: I seriously am concerned that anytime we have an opportunity
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: to travel. I'm never going to want to see any
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: other part of the world. I'm always going to want
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: to come back here. It just like spoke to me.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: It like resonated with my soul. And now like, you know, we're,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: we have a life here. Like my husband has a
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: political career. We have two sons who are both Brazilian,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: very Brazilian. Um, and yeah, I love it as much
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: as I ever have. It's like, it's just a very vibrant, fascinating, eclectic,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: like culturally like really, um, innovative country. Like there's really
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: nothing else like it.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: It's like Austin.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: No. Um, that's a joke for my listeners, but, uh, we're,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: we're in a dump.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: We're leaving. Um, Joe Rogan convinced us to move here
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: to a swamp. Um, do you, have you ever gone
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: to the Amazon podcaster? He's the, he's in fear factor guy.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: He told us to move here.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: And then we came here and it's like, there's like
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: two restaurants and they suck.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Everyone's there's just tech people, tech people. They don't even,
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: it's like tech people. They don't care about culture.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: They're just eating like macadamia nuts and sitting there in
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: their estates, trying to figure out how to choke the
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: remaining freedoms we have out of us.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: And they don't care.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: And they, you know, they did it to the Bay
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: area where it's like, you know, it's just kind of
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: a boring, you know, who cares in the cities all
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: go to shit because the resources are sucked out and,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: you know, given to condo developers so they can build,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: you know, um, you know, high rises with floating bathtubs.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: And then you have all these problems. What do you,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: what do you make of like, have you been.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: To the Amazon? The Amazon has always fascinated me. I've
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: always wanted to go there.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't spent, you know, lots of time
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: there in a way that, like, I can say anything
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: meaningful about it besides what you read about it. I mean,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: I've been there twice for a couple of events. But, yeah, like,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: it's just the kind of, it's, like, what it makes
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: you realize is that, you know, there are people who
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: live in the Amazon who are tribes that have no
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: contact with the outside world.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 3: They're just very pristine and.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: Detached from the Matrix, like, completely. They're living the way
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: they did, like, I saw one of them on Tik TOK.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: Where is now? Are these people just completely, and they'll
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: be killed right with diseases because they have no immunity.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, COVID started entering because one of the
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: things that Bolsonaro government is doing, one of the ways
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: Bolsonaro won was he got funded by the like lumber
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: industry and agri businesses that want to cut down the
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: entire Amazon and sell it all off for profit. So,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: they're constantly invading the Amazon. They don't give a shit
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: about the indigenous people who live there. And they did,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: one of the things they did was bring COVID to
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: a lot of those indigenous tribes that, as you say,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: don't really have, they have no healthcare system and they
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: really don't have much of an immunity because they've been
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: inbred for so long not to need it because they're
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: not exposed to tons of bacteria and viruses like the
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: way we are. So they had a much higher death rate,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: a lot of these tribes did from COVID than, non-indigenous people.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's unfortunate.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Are you planning on making any trips to the United States?
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: Are you working on a new book? What's the next phase?
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: What's the next thing for you? Are you going to
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: start a podcast and build a social media empire? Are
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: you going to be an influencer? Where do you think
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: the next journey takes you?
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm doing some modeling, obviously. That's always been a
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: big part of what I've done, and I love it.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: It fulfills me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I've seen you at shoots.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: Yes. Um, no.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: Well, I was, like I said, I was, I was
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: supposed to be in Austin literally today.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: We would have taken you for dinner. Proving how bad
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: it was. I know.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. That would have been great. Um, but I'm
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: going to, I'm going to be, I just had to
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: cancel for logistical reasons that are too boring and annoying
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: to go into, but I'm going to be there a
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: little bit. Yeah. I'm going to start traveling again. I
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: don't miss traveling. Um, you know, I'm, I'm my sub
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: stack has, has, you know, excited me. It's been a
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: big success and, um, uh, I'm also gonna, there's like,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: I'm really interested in, the only things I'm interested in
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: are things that exist outside the binary, like outside the matrix,
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: that outside of that like dreary left, right fighting. Those
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: are the only things I listen to. Those are the
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: only things I'm interested in. They're the only places I'm going.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 3: The reason why I go on Tucker Carlson's show is
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: because I feel like that is an example of like
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: something that's politically and ideologically heterodox. It's why I think
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: Joe's show has been successful. You know? And you know,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: like crystal and soccer, that whole world, that's where I'm interested.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to, I'm about to actually go to
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: a new platform. I'm going to stay on sub stack,
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: but I'm going to do a kind of new video platform.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: That's not YouTube that I'm going to announce soon where
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: I'm going to do a bunch of like video programming and, um,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: bring some people with me. We're going to do a
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: bunch of interesting stuff. Um, yeah, so it's just, it's
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: so funny because when I left the intercept, I did
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: it very precipitously. It was the thing I created. I
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: was there for seven years. And it provided me a
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: ton of security. And I like quit in 24 hours
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: with no planning. And it was just the best fucking
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: thing that ever happened. Like just the emancipation, not just
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: like no longer needing to be captive to an institution,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: but just psychologically. You know, like there's never a moment
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: anymore when I think maybe I can't say this, maybe
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: I can't talk about this because of the need to
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: appease that world because I've just not only cut myself
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: off from that world, but then burned it down to
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: the ground as I left. So yeah, I mean, I'm
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: just very excited by, you know, the opportunity to, there's
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: like a growing ecosystem of people who want to do
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: interesting things.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: And I just want to keep being part of that.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: Well, you're, you're, you're welcome here.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: Anytime Joe loves you and we'll, you know, that's an
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: open invitation. Like, People like you are very important.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: They're rare.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: And for me as a comedian, funny is always found
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: in the gray areas, in the non-binary, whatever you were saying,
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: the non-heterodox. Not in the non-binary. Actually, they don't love
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: funny over there. But I mean in the political non-binary,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: in the spaces between things, because I think that's where
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: you get the greater truths, right? I think the goal
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: of any comedian or journalist is to hit a harder
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: truth than the one that's right there for the taking.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: I think the one that's right there for the taking
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: is shallow. And if you're good at what you do,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: you're trying to reach for that deeper thing. But where
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: can people follow you if they want to support your
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: sub stack?
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's just.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: We've been trying to get Katie Herzog unsuccessfully deplatformed from
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: Substack because she called me a fat goon.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: And I've written letters, and we want her off every
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: social media.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Katie Herzog, who's America's final lesbian, the last lesbian that
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: we have.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: But that's hate speech. Fat goon is hate speech. All right, continue.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: I'm going to get her kicked off for you.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: She actually got me trending... on Twitter for 48 hours
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: as a transphobe because she wrote an article about how
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: lesbians are disappearing because they're all becoming trans men.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: And I cited that in connection with my discussion of
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: this new Gallup poll showing that like everyone in the
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: universe now identifies as like queer and non-binary. None of
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 3: them are gay.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: None of them are gay. None of them are having
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: sex with anyone. It's primarily online.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: It's amazing. They're like obsessed with sexual identity and yet
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: despise sex. It's like the most asexualized movement, even though
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 3: it's all constructed around sexual identity. I know.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: And we love Katie.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: We do love her.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: We love Katie.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: She got me, she got, she got me like trending.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: She didn't fucking trend. I trended, even though like I
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: was only just citing her article anyway. So I'm totally
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: behind whatever anti Katie Herzog you have. I will help
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: with that. And ever I can, I want to platform her.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: I want to like, um, ruin her life really. So
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: people can find me at greenwald.substack.com. Obviously on Twitter, I'm
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: going to be on the Tim Dillon show a lot.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to let myself on periodically. I think
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: I pretty much invite myself on this time. Um, yeah,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: so I'll be around. Yes.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: Um, say, say hello to my friend.
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: Ida is such a huge Glenn Greenwald fan. She's so
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: upset that you're gay. She would move to Brazil and
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: live with you. Uh, so just shout out Ida, say
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: Ida Tavakoli.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: She's, Persian.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: She's always talking about the Iranian revolution. So if you
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: could shout her out, that would be very, very cool
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: for her.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: Just say hello, Ida.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: There you go. See, there it is.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: There it is.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: And what are these dogs, just before I let you go,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, why don't you put the collars on them
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: that stuns them and shocks them and shakes them or
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: drug them?
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: I would sooner put a shock collar on you, Joe,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: than I would on, I mean, Tim, than I would
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: on them.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: I've paid good money to have a shock collar put
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: on me.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: I know I say that because I heard you liked it.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: That's the only reason why I would do it.
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: Glenn Greenwald at Substack. Go find him. Very good.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: We appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much for
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: doing this.
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: Good talking to you, Tim.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you.