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#153 Jason Flom with Willie "Pete" Williams · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence
0:04
Speaker 1: Network conference in twenty nineteen. On April fifth, nineteen eighty five,
0:10
Speaker 1: a woman was exiting her car at a parking lot
0:13
Speaker 1: just north of Atlanta when a man approached asking about
0:16
Speaker 1: a woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he
0:19
Speaker 1: pulled a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove
0:22
Speaker 1: to a dead end, and proceeded.
0:23
Speaker 2: To rape her. After the attack, the victim went to
0:26
Speaker 2: the hospital for a rape kit.
0:28
Speaker 1: With a well lit parking lot and over forty five
0:31
Speaker 1: minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together
0:33
Speaker 1: a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident
0:38
Speaker 1: occurred along the same stretch of road.
0:40
Speaker 2: A man approached a woman in.
0:42
Speaker 1: A parking lot asking for Carol, before using a threat
0:45
Speaker 1: of violence to get her back into the car. However,
0:48
Speaker 1: this time the victim was able to talk the attacker
0:51
Speaker 1: into leaving before a rape occurred. The police showed this
0:55
Speaker 1: would be victim the composite sketch, and it appeared there
0:58
Speaker 1: was a serial rapist operating in the North Atlanta area. Then,
1:02
Speaker 1: on April twenty eighth, Willie Pete Williams along with two
1:06
Speaker 1: of his friends, were stopped by police for suspicious behavior
1:10
Speaker 1: in the area of the attacks. Police noticed that Pete
1:13
Speaker 1: resembled the sketch and came up with a reason to
1:16
Speaker 1: arrest him, saying that he gave them false information in
1:19
Speaker 1: order to bring him in to be photographed.
1:22
Speaker 2: His photo was.
1:22
Speaker 1: Shown to both women for a positive ID. While Pete
1:27
Speaker 1: was locked up, Three more attacks would occur with the
1:30
Speaker 1: same mom but it was already too late. Pete Williams
1:34
Speaker 1: spent nearly twenty two years in prison before DNA testing
1:38
Speaker 1: proved that another man was responsible for all five attacks.
1:43
Speaker 1: This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Plomm. Welcome back to
1:58
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. This episode is going to be a very
2:03
Speaker 1: unique one. We have with us Pete Williams, who served
2:07
Speaker 1: twenty two years in Georgia prisons for a rape he
2:10
Speaker 1: did not commit. Two rapes, actually they did not commit.
2:14
Speaker 1: And with him is Drew Finling, who is a who
2:19
Speaker 1: can I say, enigmatic character, famous for his work representing
2:23
Speaker 1: some of the top hip hop arts in the world,
2:25
Speaker 1: and he's also now the president of the National Association
2:27
Speaker 1: of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved in criminal defense
2:32
Speaker 1: work because of Pete's case, but they never met it
2:34
Speaker 1: till today, correct, So this is going to be a
2:37
Speaker 1: fun ride and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete, welcome,
2:41
Speaker 1: and the same to you, Drew. Absolutely, And like I
2:44
Speaker 1: always say, Pete, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad
2:46
Speaker 1: you're here. And I want to tell your story because
2:50
Speaker 1: I think it's an important story for a lot of reasons.
2:52
Speaker 2: I guess at the heart of it is.
2:54
Speaker 1: A mistaken witness identification more than one actually, and it's
2:58
Speaker 1: a really important thing for us to talk because it's
3:00
Speaker 1: so common. But can you take us back to I mean,
3:03
Speaker 1: this is a long time ago, right, because you were
3:05
Speaker 1: exonerated in two thousand and seven, yes, but the help of
3:08
Speaker 1: the Innocence Project, So this crime goes all the way
3:11
Speaker 1: back to the mid eighties.
3:13
Speaker 2: Right, yeah?
3:15
Speaker 3: Five?
3:16
Speaker 2: And what were you up to back then? What was
3:19
Speaker 2: your life like? What was going on in Pete's world?
3:23
Speaker 3: Most An was working, I had dropped out of school,
3:28
Speaker 3: really didn't have much going on other than freedom.
3:32
Speaker 2: How old were you?
3:34
Speaker 3: I just had twenty three.
3:35
Speaker 1: So you're twenty three. You got charged with originally one.
3:39
Speaker 3: Rape, right, yeah, one way right at the time.
3:42
Speaker 1: And let's talk about this awful rape which occurred on
3:45
Speaker 1: April fifth, nineteen eighty five, which is when a woman
3:47
Speaker 1: arrived at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road,
3:51
Speaker 1: just north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out,
3:53
Speaker 1: a man approached, pretending that he was looking for someone,
3:56
Speaker 1: but when he got close, he pulled a gun and
3:59
Speaker 1: forced her back into the car, then drove her at
4:01
Speaker 1: gunpoint to a dead end street where he raped her.
4:05
Speaker 1: Then he drove her back to her apartment complex, and
4:08
Speaker 1: then he left on foot. So the victim then went
4:12
Speaker 1: to the police and the hospital for a rape kid
4:15
Speaker 1: which means there was a sample of the rapist DNA,
4:18
Speaker 1: and that becomes important later because after all, there was
4:21
Speaker 1: no DNA testing back in nineteen eighty five anyway, So
4:23
Speaker 1: later on though, we're going to get to that. So
4:27
Speaker 1: by now, the victim had spent a considerable amount of
4:30
Speaker 1: time with her attacker, and as a result, she was
4:32
Speaker 1: able to help the police put together a composite sketch.
4:36
Speaker 1: And this attacker had a particular mo too. Can you
4:40
Speaker 1: talk about that, Drew.
4:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what had happened is Roswell Road is a
4:45
Speaker 4: very long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to
4:48
Speaker 4: say it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with
4:49
Speaker 4: things like that. But the real rapist was trolling up
4:53
Speaker 4: and down Roswell Road and he would go to women
4:57
Speaker 4: and I think they would kind of be in their
4:58
Speaker 4: twenties and they would like blind and blonde hair, and
5:01
Speaker 4: he would say the same like have you seen and
5:03
Speaker 4: I used to know the name Carol, Carol? Yeah, have
5:06
Speaker 4: you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car.
5:10
Speaker 2: Right.
5:10
Speaker 1: So, five days after the first rape, on April tenth,
5:12
Speaker 1: nearly the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this
5:16
Speaker 1: ended up being an attempted rape, but still the same Hey,
5:20
Speaker 1: do you know Carol?
5:21
Speaker 2: Or where's Carol?
5:22
Speaker 1: Accept his second victim when he tried to get her
5:24
Speaker 1: to take off her clothes. I don't know how, but
5:27
Speaker 1: she was able to talk him out of raping her.
5:30
Speaker 2: She went to the police.
5:31
Speaker 1: They hear this similar MO from just five days before,
5:35
Speaker 1: and they show her the composite sketch and she agreed
5:38
Speaker 1: that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So Pete,
5:42
Speaker 1: you've got nothing to do with this. You had nothing
5:44
Speaker 1: to do this, but you lived in the area, so
5:46
Speaker 1: can you tell us how you were dragged into this
5:50
Speaker 1: when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell
5:53
Speaker 1: Road one night.
5:54
Speaker 3: I was riding out right on Roswell and it was
5:58
Speaker 3: starting in my car. I was passing on the car,
6:01
Speaker 3: so it was a compositive skates going around in that area.
6:05
Speaker 3: So the way that they arrested me, they told that
6:09
Speaker 3: I gave them false information. That's just to get me
6:11
Speaker 3: there and get my photograph, my picture to show the
6:15
Speaker 3: witness because I gave them information while I was staying
6:19
Speaker 3: everything adequate.
6:21
Speaker 2: Oh, you gave them accurate information, yes.
6:23
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, And they said yeah, they said it
6:25
Speaker 3: was false. You know, I couldn't all get the police,
6:28
Speaker 3: so you're.
6:30
Speaker 2: A stop by the police.
6:31
Speaker 1: They have this composite sketch in the back of their
6:33
Speaker 1: minds and they come up with a reason. They said
6:37
Speaker 1: that you gave them false information, which wasn't true, but
6:41
Speaker 1: they wanted an excuse to get your photograph to share
6:45
Speaker 1: with these two women because they thought that you looked
6:48
Speaker 1: enough like the sketch, so they arrested you.
6:51
Speaker 2: Then what I was there for a while.
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Speaker 3: Wait, I was there maybe about four or five hours.
6:56
Speaker 3: But it was a relative cheap bomb.
6:58
Speaker 2: You know.
6:58
Speaker 3: So I was going out three to four hours after
7:01
Speaker 3: I was arrested, and two weeks later I was sure
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Speaker 3: it was rape, aggravated uselt and aggravate US solomy and
7:09
Speaker 3: I was arrested and I didn't know what they was
7:11
Speaker 3: talking about.
7:12
Speaker 2: Had you even heard about these?
7:14
Speaker 3: I didn't have the slightest idea. They said it was
7:16
Speaker 3: from positive circling of rape was out in that area
7:20
Speaker 3: and I resembled it.
7:21
Speaker 1: Now did that sketch actually resemble you?
7:25
Speaker 3: Yeah?
7:26
Speaker 2: It actually did, right, So so you resembled the sketch,
7:30
Speaker 2: so that was dead.
7:31
Speaker 3: I didn't you know, I didn't. I haven't raped anybody.
7:34
Speaker 3: I just resembled it in positive skitch.
7:36
Speaker 1: The sketch resembled you. And then I'm presuming you were
7:40
Speaker 1: identified as well in the lineup on court.
7:44
Speaker 3: Oh, it was a lineup, and I was identifying doing
7:48
Speaker 3: the trial as well.
7:49
Speaker 1: I mean, we know that I witness misidentification is the
7:52
Speaker 1: leading cause of wrongful convictions.
7:54
Speaker 4: And look, I'm just not the biggest believer in the
7:57
Speaker 4: composite sketch because the composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not
8:01
Speaker 4: the perpetrator. And so it just happened to have favored him,
8:05
Speaker 4: and then it's the composite sketch and anybody that looks
8:09
Speaker 4: like them that replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So
8:14
Speaker 4: I'm just not a believer in the whole composite sketch thing.
8:17
Speaker 4: I just don't like where they lead, as in convictions
8:21
Speaker 4: of innocent people in cases like this.
8:23
Speaker 1: So the charges were rape, aggravated assault, and aggravated sod
8:28
Speaker 1: of me, and true, this is where you first entered
8:31
Speaker 1: the picture. He became aware of Pete's case, and this
8:34
Speaker 1: is at his trial where you were just a young man,
8:36
Speaker 1: just out of law school pretty much right at.
8:39
Speaker 4: The time, I was twenty five years old. I was
8:42
Speaker 4: fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant
8:45
Speaker 4: public defender assigned to mister William's courtroom where his case
8:49
Speaker 4: took place. And I made it my practice. Then I
8:52
Speaker 4: would just watch every case I could. I just gobbled
8:55
Speaker 4: it up, and I loved my job as a public defender.
8:57
Speaker 4: And I just happened to watch his case and then
9:00
Speaker 4: really started learning about it, and I watched the trial.
9:02
Speaker 4: So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very
9:06
Speaker 4: long stretch of road in Atlanta, but at some point
9:10
Speaker 4: along the road, it is the City of Atlanta, and
9:13
Speaker 4: then it's no longer the City of Atlanta. Well, the
9:17
Speaker 4: real rapist because it wasn't mister Williams. Anybody that watched
9:20
Speaker 4: the trial would realize that, because I watched the trial
9:23
Speaker 4: and I'll talk about that later, and it was obvious
9:25
Speaker 4: he was innocent. So, Jason, here's the crazy thing. One
9:29
Speaker 4: jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police. On the
9:32
Speaker 4: other part of the road was Fulton County Police. To
9:37
Speaker 4: this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into did
9:40
Speaker 4: they ever talk to one another? And in fact, if
9:42
Speaker 4: you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the City
9:44
Speaker 4: of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist.
9:48
Speaker 4: But yet on the other side of the sign was
9:51
Speaker 4: this case involving mister Williams, and apparently he got arrested
9:56
Speaker 4: and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I
9:59
Speaker 4: think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor,
10:03
Speaker 4: his case was on the seventh floor, was on the seven, Yeah,
10:08
Speaker 4: he was on seventh, on the eighth, you're right, yeah,
10:12
Speaker 4: And he pled out during his trial and I went
10:15
Speaker 4: and watched his also because the Public Devendor's office did
10:18
Speaker 4: that case.
10:18
Speaker 2: Wait, how far apart were the two different?
10:21
Speaker 4: I can't remember the dates. They weren't too far apart.
10:24
Speaker 4: But I watched his and I read up on his
10:26
Speaker 4: and I was like, well, this guy did it, and
10:28
Speaker 4: it was astonishing, And.
10:30
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the pattern, right, Because for whatever reason,
10:33
Speaker 1: the attacker always did the same damn thing. Maybe he
10:37
Speaker 1: thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing
10:40
Speaker 1: these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol
10:44
Speaker 1: or Carolyn. Why he was fixating on that? Yeah, but
10:48
Speaker 1: that was his thing. And he also had this car
10:51
Speaker 1: that broke down a lot, because a number of the
10:54
Speaker 1: women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete
10:57
Speaker 1: was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same
11:01
Speaker 1: damn mL right with exactly the same pattern, the exact
11:06
Speaker 1: same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible clearly
11:10
Speaker 1: for all five attacks, but he only face charges related
11:14
Speaker 1: to those three, And so the other two attacks repined
11:17
Speaker 1: on you, Pete and this other guy, Kenneth Wicker. He
11:20
Speaker 1: finally got caught because his last victim heroically was able
11:24
Speaker 1: to take down her attacker's license plate number, and it
11:27
Speaker 1: turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road. Where
11:32
Speaker 1: all of these attacks were taking place. So it would
11:36
Speaker 1: seem obvious to the casual observer that the DA would
11:41
Speaker 1: hear about these other cases and this other arrest and
11:45
Speaker 1: immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete.
11:49
Speaker 2: But that's not what happened.
11:51
Speaker 1: And later all of this was brought up in your appeals,
11:55
Speaker 1: and I'm talking as early as nineteen eighty six, but
11:59
Speaker 1: the DA just didn't fucking care about it then or
12:04
Speaker 1: while he was prosecuting you in the first place.
12:07
Speaker 4: Sir Jason, Pete and I we just met downstairs and
12:11
Speaker 4: we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm about
12:14
Speaker 4: to bring up which has bothered him to this day,
12:16
Speaker 4: and I'm going to tell it to you, and that
12:17
Speaker 4: is our system, right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for
12:23
Speaker 4: Pete Williams, his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical,
12:28
Speaker 4: as we know from several things, including the fact that
12:30
Speaker 4: he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case
12:33
Speaker 4: right now.
12:33
Speaker 1: The prosecutor, the prosecutor oh blot twist, yes, I mean.
12:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, and was also eventually charged not only with that murder,
12:42
Speaker 4: which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer
12:45
Speaker 4: for a drug operation when he was in private practice.
12:48
Speaker 4: So not the best guy in the world. And I
12:51
Speaker 4: bring that up only because you would fathom that a decent,
12:54
Speaker 4: ethical prosecutor, which there are many of out there, would
12:58
Speaker 4: have realized this having been the lead mister Williams case,
13:01
Speaker 4: and said, uh, oh, we got problems. And that never happened.
13:06
Speaker 4: He never had the ethics of a prosecutor that realized
13:10
Speaker 4: what you just said and wanted to put an end
13:13
Speaker 4: to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen, and there
13:17
Speaker 4: was a real breakdown.
13:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm still trying to process this.
13:21
Speaker 2: This is a story.
13:22
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing
13:25
Speaker 1: this since the early nineties.
13:27
Speaker 4: The irony is Pete said to me outside we agreed.
13:30
Speaker 4: How come that didn't become the biggest part of the
13:33
Speaker 4: story of Pete Williams's illegal conviction and incarceration. As he said,
13:38
Speaker 4: I was serving my sentence and my prosecutor was hearving
13:41
Speaker 4: his sentence at the exact same time.
13:45
Speaker 2: Oh so he went to prison while you were in this.
13:47
Speaker 2: Well this is not the same.
13:48
Speaker 3: Prison, not the same prison, but he went doing mind cusurrection.
13:52
Speaker 2: Did you know that at the time? Yeah, I probably it.
13:55
Speaker 4: On tell me Jason was one of the biggest cases
13:58
Speaker 4: in the history of Atlanta. Yeah, yeah, I can't even
14:01
Speaker 4: think in my thirty plus years of practice of a
14:03
Speaker 4: federal case that they changed venue. It was such a
14:07
Speaker 4: big case. But they actually had to change venue to
14:10
Speaker 4: Birmingham in his federal case, his murder case, they changed
14:13
Speaker 4: venue as well, and did it somewhere in the woods,
14:16
Speaker 4: rural Georgia somewhere, But they actually moved his federal case
14:19
Speaker 4: to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta.
14:22
Speaker 4: Fred Tokars his name. It was one of the biggest
14:24
Speaker 4: cases in the history of Atlanta.
14:28
Speaker 1: So I took a second to look up Fred Tokars
14:31
Speaker 1: and what I found out was batshit crazy, crazier than
14:35
Speaker 1: what Pete and Drew had said. This Georgia prosecutor went
14:39
Speaker 1: on to become a private attorney to some big time
14:42
Speaker 1: drug dealers, but besides representing them, he was also helping
14:45
Speaker 1: them hide their money in nightclubs, and eventually his wife, Sarah,
14:50
Speaker 1: threatened to blow the whistle on his illegal and the
14:53
Speaker 1: various activities, but instead of turning his life around, he
14:58
Speaker 1: plotted to have her kidnap and killed in front of
15:01
Speaker 1: their four and six year old boys, Ricky and Mike.
15:04
Speaker 1: I mean, what the actual fuck. He was convicted of
15:10
Speaker 1: racketeering in nineteen ninety four and eventually also convicted for
15:14
Speaker 1: Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility of parole.
15:19
Speaker 1: He was held in secret custody as a marked man,
15:22
Speaker 1: and since this interview is recorded, despite his more treacherous
15:26
Speaker 1: than usual situation in prison, Fred Tokers died in May
15:30
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to
15:34
Speaker 1: complications related to a neurological disorder.
15:39
Speaker 4: And that was the prosecutor that put mister Williams away.
15:43
Speaker 1: So, I mean, it's just an unbelievable twist of fate
15:46
Speaker 1: right that the guy who was responsible for ruining your
15:50
Speaker 1: life ends up inmate. The Pacers Foundation is a proud
16:03
Speaker 1: supporter of this episode and of the Last Mile organization,
16:06
Speaker 1: which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals
16:10
Speaker 1: successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation
16:15
Speaker 1: is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana,
16:18
Speaker 1: supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.
16:24
Speaker 1: For more information, on the work of the Pacers Foundation
16:26
Speaker 1: or the Last Mile Program. Visit Pacersfoundation dot org or
16:30
Speaker 1: the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG,
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Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton
16:41
Speaker 1: and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro
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Speaker 1: Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to
16:49
Speaker 1: many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently
16:53
Speaker 1: they announced that working to reform the criminal justice system
16:56
Speaker 1: will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul
16:59
Speaker 1: Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful
17:04
Speaker 1: pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of
17:07
Speaker 1: our society and in support of the public interest, including
17:10
Speaker 1: extensive work in the criminal justice area. You end up
17:19
Speaker 1: getting sentenced to basically a life sentence. Yeah, forty five
17:25
Speaker 1: years to life. And you were twenty four at the time. Yeah,
17:29
Speaker 1: so forty five to life. And of course what I
17:31
Speaker 1: five the life really means life because ultimately it'd be
17:34
Speaker 1: sixty eight years old and they'd be asking you to
17:36
Speaker 1: be guilty.
17:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the way to hit my sonos lined up
17:40
Speaker 3: fifteen teen and twenty do to fifteen one to do
17:43
Speaker 3: to fifteen do the team finish the team?
17:46
Speaker 4: Do to twining? It was consecutive sentences.
17:50
Speaker 2: So how did you deal with this?
17:52
Speaker 1: I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapist, looking at spending.
17:56
Speaker 2: The rest of your life there?
17:58
Speaker 1: How did you find the strength to e and continue
18:00
Speaker 1: on and ultimately contact and reach out and get this
18:04
Speaker 1: incredible team behind you that led to your exoneration and
18:08
Speaker 1: you know vindication.
18:11
Speaker 2: Mm.
18:12
Speaker 3: Well, my first ten year of priism, man, I was
18:14
Speaker 3: stayed in the whole segregation and fought all the time
18:17
Speaker 3: in subordination because I felt like there wasn't no hope,
18:23
Speaker 3: so I might as well be part of the prism,
18:26
Speaker 3: you know. And I met this guy after ten years.
18:31
Speaker 3: He's sung gospel and he always went to church, and
18:34
Speaker 3: he was always happen, you know, and and he had
18:36
Speaker 3: more time than that, He had a life sent and
18:38
Speaker 3: some time, but he never showed it. He never showed it,
18:41
Speaker 3: and I wanted to know why, you know why. It
18:44
Speaker 3: wasn't about it, he said the church. Man, I sing
18:46
Speaker 3: the gospel and it makes me feel better. So I
18:49
Speaker 3: used to go out and sing it first because I
18:51
Speaker 3: really didn't know any gospels, you know what I mean.
18:53
Speaker 3: But once I got to going and listen to gospel.
18:56
Speaker 3: I learned a few gospel songs and I started liking it.
19:00
Speaker 3: Came paul Or Choir for about five years, and that's
19:04
Speaker 3: where a guy was in there. He had a booklet
19:06
Speaker 3: concerning MCENT projects. So I got it in that started
19:10
Speaker 3: writing him and told him that it was I had
19:12
Speaker 3: some evidence.
19:14
Speaker 2: Was this Georgia Andson's project or New York and George
19:16
Speaker 2: and Georgia.
19:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, And they got concerned and what kind of evidence
19:19
Speaker 3: you had? So I was writing them and I told them,
19:22
Speaker 3: and some way they got a hold of it. They
19:24
Speaker 3: said they had destroyed it here in eighty seven. They
19:27
Speaker 3: said they destroyed all that. But Cliff, some way, Cliff
19:30
Speaker 3: had talked to some at the GBI, be on some female,
19:33
Speaker 3: and she allowed him back there and lo and behold,
19:36
Speaker 3: that was my.
19:39
Speaker 2: Evidence.
19:41
Speaker 1: And the evidence at the Georgia Breau of Investigation that
19:44
Speaker 1: Pete is referring to is the real rapist DNA sample
19:48
Speaker 1: from the rape kit, and they were finally able to
19:50
Speaker 1: test it to not only exclude Pete, but they also
19:53
Speaker 1: tested against the DNA of the man who had pleaded
19:55
Speaker 1: guilty to those other rapes that had happened during the
19:58
Speaker 1: same time period of long roswell and sure enough, Bingo,
20:02
Speaker 1: it's him. But of course this incredible revelation did not
20:07
Speaker 1: come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence
20:11
Speaker 1: was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases
20:14
Speaker 1: like these, And Drew, let's go back to you on this.
20:17
Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's just nuts that we don't have
20:21
Speaker 1: a nationwide standard for maintaining evidence. In fact, practices are
20:26
Speaker 1: different all over. Some are good and some are, like,
20:29
Speaker 1: let's face it, like a third world country.
20:32
Speaker 4: There's really no national consistency. And so you know when
20:37
Speaker 4: you say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we
20:39
Speaker 4: probably have well over one hundred thousand innocent people in
20:43
Speaker 4: our prison systems, and that's probably a low number. We
20:46
Speaker 4: think about if we had consistency in the preservation of evidence,
20:51
Speaker 4: what would we'd be able to do. It's really going
20:53
Speaker 4: to require a coordinated effort. But it's the only right
20:57
Speaker 4: thing to do.
20:57
Speaker 1: There's just absolutely no argument against it. There's nothing bad
21:02
Speaker 1: about preserving evidence.
21:03
Speaker 4: Well, there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you
21:07
Speaker 4: hear about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to
21:11
Speaker 4: making on behalf of them and argued about just having
21:14
Speaker 4: somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done,
21:19
Speaker 4: Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why
21:21
Speaker 4: would you ever object to being able to check off
21:26
Speaker 4: the list the possibility that somebody innocent is in jail
21:29
Speaker 4: for many years, if not their life. And it's that
21:31
Speaker 4: same type of flawed logic that would have some say, well,
21:35
Speaker 4: we don't need to take up the room, We don't
21:37
Speaker 4: need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You
21:41
Speaker 4: could just fathom the arguments that are coming, you know,
21:43
Speaker 4: because prosecutors want to believe and law enforcement want to
21:46
Speaker 4: believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction,
21:49
Speaker 4: and so you can always deal with that sentiment, which
21:53
Speaker 4: is wrong. Yeah, that's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment
21:57
Speaker 4: that dictates around the country when good folks are fighting
22:00
Speaker 4: amhalf of the innocents project to have testing done and
22:03
Speaker 4: they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors that don't
22:06
Speaker 4: want testing to be done.
22:09
Speaker 3: To me, why would you want to destroy ivernandek trio person.
22:14
Speaker 2: And identify the actual perpetrator like it does.
22:17
Speaker 3: I don't even know what to think of that, really,
22:19
Speaker 3: I don't.
22:20
Speaker 1: Thank god they hadn't actually destroyed the evidence from your case,
22:23
Speaker 1: because they actually exculpated you. And it ended up causing
22:29
Speaker 1: you to be released from prison on January twenty third,
22:32
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, And subsequently it matched up to
22:37
Speaker 1: Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all those years ago.
22:43
Speaker 1: He was then arrested on February ninth, two thousand and seven,
22:47
Speaker 1: for the April fifth and tenth incidents. Then four days later,
22:52
Speaker 1: you were granted a new trial on February thirteenth, and
22:56
Speaker 1: the DA subsequently dropped all charges.
23:00
Speaker 3: All the charge you know, they took the rape and
23:03
Speaker 3: everything away from my report.
23:05
Speaker 2: So you were in court when all the charges were
23:08
Speaker 2: actually dropped. And what was that like? How? Who was there?
23:11
Speaker 2: A lot of family? Was it a hot Yeah?
23:13
Speaker 3: My family, My family there, and there was a lot
23:16
Speaker 3: of people there. They was happy for me, you know,
23:18
Speaker 3: even people I didn't know, you know, like even the
23:21
Speaker 3: police is. And as a matter of fact, one of
23:24
Speaker 3: the police that was used to take me back and forth,
23:26
Speaker 3: the colt, and she came down and said, I always
23:29
Speaker 3: knew you was innocent.
23:31
Speaker 2: Wow, how'd that feel? Wonderful man, wonderful And.
23:37
Speaker 1: It's worth noting that in about fifty percent of the
23:39
Speaker 1: and this is project cases where DNA has has exculpated
23:44
Speaker 1: an exonerate led to the exoneration of an innocent person,
23:46
Speaker 1: it has also led to the identification of.
23:50
Speaker 2: The guilty person.
23:51
Speaker 1: That's absolutely right, and in those cases, of course, that
23:55
Speaker 1: person has gone on to have committed other heinous crimes.
24:00
Speaker 2: Yes, when you lock up the.
24:01
Speaker 1: Wrong person, you stop looking for the right person, and
24:04
Speaker 1: then that person that's out there is most likely going
24:07
Speaker 1: to go and do what they did again. It's just
24:10
Speaker 1: a practical issue of we should all want to clean
24:14
Speaker 1: up these systems as best we can so that ourselves
24:17
Speaker 1: and our families are safe.
24:19
Speaker 4: I mean, well, you know, look, Jason, I think it's
24:22
Speaker 4: it's symptomatic of a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of
24:26
Speaker 4: our problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think
24:29
Speaker 4: it's all that is really tied in. We don't as
24:34
Speaker 4: defense attorneys and accuse citizens. You know, we don't control
24:38
Speaker 4: the fact that, as you well know, we represent five
24:41
Speaker 4: percent of the world's population, but closing in on twenty
24:43
Speaker 4: five percent of the world's incarcerated population. We don't dictate that,
24:47
Speaker 4: and I don't want this to be a session where I'm,
24:49
Speaker 4: you know, kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control
24:52
Speaker 4: so much. Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You
24:56
Speaker 4: had a prosecutor with an anti social disorder that went
24:58
Speaker 4: on to be involved in a murder, and as a
25:01
Speaker 4: twenty five year old, fresh out of law school kid,
25:05
Speaker 4: I watched what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and
25:09
Speaker 4: I watched a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor,
25:12
Speaker 4: it was a game. It wasn't about justice, and that's
25:15
Speaker 4: why ped I made a decision that I was going
25:17
Speaker 4: to spend the rest of my life defending people because
25:19
Speaker 4: of your case. It was just a job. At that point,
25:21
Speaker 4: I didn't know anything about a public defender. I never
25:23
Speaker 4: even met a lawyer until my first law school class.
25:26
Speaker 4: I have humble beginnings, but your case dictated to me
25:30
Speaker 4: what I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing.
25:43
Speaker 4: I watched that prosecutor game the system. It was just
25:46
Speaker 4: a game to him, and unfortunately, the power that being
25:51
Speaker 4: a prosecutor brings is often results in misguided prosecutions because
25:57
Speaker 4: they have the ability, if they handle ethically, to make
26:00
Speaker 4: sure to the best of their ability, that just doesn't
26:02
Speaker 4: happen to make sure that evidence is preserved, to make
26:06
Speaker 4: sure that there is proper identification procedures, and they have
26:09
Speaker 4: the ability to be that wall, that last wall of justice,
26:12
Speaker 4: to say, you know, don't I don't need a motion
26:15
Speaker 4: to suppress identification because as the prosecutor, I don't like
26:18
Speaker 4: the way this went down. We talk so much about
26:21
Speaker 4: ourselves as defense attorneys and what our job is, but
26:25
Speaker 4: we need to be spending a lot of time looking
26:28
Speaker 4: at the other side of the courtroom. And I get
26:31
Speaker 4: that there's integrity units closing up, but it needs to
26:33
Speaker 4: be a lot greater than that. It needs to be
26:35
Speaker 4: a lot better than just every once in a while
26:37
Speaker 4: a progressive prosecutor running for office. It needs to be
26:40
Speaker 4: all over the country because he has the benefit of
26:44
Speaker 4: this happening in Atlanta, But when we go to the
26:47
Speaker 4: rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi and Alabama and Tennessee, sadly,
26:54
Speaker 4: there's a lot of Pete Williams that are serving life
26:58
Speaker 4: sentences from prosecutors that were as misguided and as corrupt
27:04
Speaker 4: as the one in his case.
27:05
Speaker 1: And that's why it's so important for people to get
27:07
Speaker 1: out and vote in prosecutor races because most people don't.
27:11
Speaker 1: The number of people that vote in these races is
27:13
Speaker 1: so small that if you don't think your vote makes
27:16
Speaker 1: a difference, it does. I mean we've seen races that
27:18
Speaker 1: ended up in a dead heat like Tiede. You know,
27:21
Speaker 1: like your vote is important and if one of these
27:23
Speaker 1: people think, oh, I'm not going to.
27:24
Speaker 2: Vote in the psidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes it does.
27:26
Speaker 1: It matters in the presdentialism, but it matters a lot
27:29
Speaker 1: more in your local.
27:30
Speaker 2: Elections where your your DA.
27:32
Speaker 1: Is running and you know, and electing a progressive prosecutor,
27:37
Speaker 1: which that's not even the right word, a fair prosecutor
27:40
Speaker 1: could affect your life as well, because this could happen
27:42
Speaker 1: to you, It could happen to Pete, it could happen
27:44
Speaker 1: to anybody. We see it over and over again on
27:46
Speaker 1: this show. And then let's even talk about it from
27:48
Speaker 1: a purely fiscal level, you know, for any conservatives that
27:51
Speaker 1: are listening, When we think about the amount of money
27:54
Speaker 1: that the taxpayers of Georgia paid well upwards of a
27:57
Speaker 1: million dollars, probably closer to two million dollars to keep
27:59
Speaker 1: Pete lock up, and then any other income that he
28:03
Speaker 1: would have been able to earn and pay taxes on
28:05
Speaker 1: and you know.
28:07
Speaker 2: All the rest of this stuff.
28:08
Speaker 1: That's a pretty big thing too. I just learned the
28:10
Speaker 1: other day on a tangential note, that we spend forty
28:14
Speaker 1: million dollars a day in America on pre trial detention,
28:17
Speaker 1: right just because people can't post bail. Forty million a
28:21
Speaker 1: day to lock people up who haven't been convicted of anything.
28:25
Speaker 2: That's a day.
28:26
Speaker 1: That's your tax dollars at work and mine, by the way,
28:29
Speaker 1: and whoever's listening, it's nuts. I mean, we lock up
28:32
Speaker 1: more people than Russia and China combined. Back to your
28:34
Speaker 1: previous point, we locked black people up at six times
28:37
Speaker 1: the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid.
28:39
Speaker 1: And if you're a woman listening, then you should just
28:44
Speaker 1: process this for a second, because while you know what
28:47
Speaker 1: Drew said is certainly scary and true about us having
28:50
Speaker 1: twenty five percent of the world's prison population, we have
28:52
Speaker 1: thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. That
28:56
Speaker 1: means one out of every three women in prison in
28:58
Speaker 1: the world is in America, which is such a small
29:01
Speaker 1: country when you look at the vast world that's out there,
29:04
Speaker 1: and the more we can do to get out there
29:06
Speaker 1: and spread the message. And the more you do to
29:08
Speaker 1: get out there and vote and get active and volunteer,
29:11
Speaker 1: go to Georgia NIS's project website, you know, learn more.
29:15
Speaker 1: Contact NACDL. What is it, NACDL dot org exactly, NACDL
29:19
Speaker 1: dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers dot org.
29:23
Speaker 4: So I'm glad you brought up kind of where people
29:25
Speaker 4: fall on the political continuum. You should know that the
29:29
Speaker 4: term just finished and there's a new governor here. But
29:31
Speaker 4: our last governor, Nathan dial As a Republican, two term Republican,
29:35
Speaker 4: and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers gave him
29:38
Speaker 4: a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice Award
29:40
Speaker 4: for his work on criminal justice reform. And so you
29:43
Speaker 4: hit on it. No matter where you are, left wing,
29:46
Speaker 4: right wing, no wing. We are any period of time
29:49
Speaker 4: right now where people are really focusing on criminal justice reform.
29:54
Speaker 4: And I think that you bring up all the numbers,
29:56
Speaker 4: they're startling and it can impact anybody, you know, whether
30:00
Speaker 4: it's the fact that our prison systems are warehousing the
30:03
Speaker 4: mentally ill an adult autistic population. There's so many things
30:08
Speaker 4: that attract people. The National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.
30:13
Speaker 4: As you know, we have our foundation for criminal justice
30:16
Speaker 4: and we really embrace non lawyers to be part of it.
30:20
Speaker 4: Our long term goal is to get non lawyers into
30:22
Speaker 4: our leadership track, let them be trustees. We need people
30:26
Speaker 4: to reach out to us. We just want everyday citizens
30:29
Speaker 4: to be involved, come to our meetings, and Jason's right,
30:33
Speaker 4: there may not be an election that may impact your
30:37
Speaker 4: life more than who your local district attorney is. Have
30:40
Speaker 4: them answer to your questions. Folks need to take these
30:43
Speaker 4: stories to heart, and which is why this podcast is
30:47
Speaker 4: so important. They need to understand that not everybody is
30:51
Speaker 4: going to be blessed with the opportunity to connect up
30:53
Speaker 4: with the innocence projects. So listen to podcasts like this
30:57
Speaker 4: and get involved the most you can.
31:00
Speaker 1: And that is once again an ACDL dot org National
31:03
Speaker 1: Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Now we have this tradition
31:08
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,
31:12
Speaker 1: which is where I get to just sit back and
31:15
Speaker 1: listen and I leave the microphones on for you guys
31:19
Speaker 1: for any closing thoughts.
31:22
Speaker 2: That you want to share.
31:23
Speaker 1: And because Pete is the honored guest here, not that
31:27
Speaker 1: you're not, but you know he's the star of the show.
31:29
Speaker 1: I'm going to let him go last, and so drew
31:32
Speaker 1: any parting shots.
31:35
Speaker 2: Pete.
31:35
Speaker 4: I just want to wish you the best and let
31:40
Speaker 4: you know that the tragedy that occurred to you influence
31:45
Speaker 4: the course of my existence. So my family, all my clients,
31:50
Speaker 4: I want to help you, Pete.
32:00
Speaker 3: I'm glad y'all had it broadcast to let people know
32:03
Speaker 3: that things like that actually happen. People do go to
32:07
Speaker 3: jail wrong for the convicted, and I'm just glad you
32:11
Speaker 3: all been a pubblan note that these things actually happen.
32:21
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
32:24
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.
32:25
Speaker 2: It really helps.
32:27
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and
32:29
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
32:32
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go
32:36
Speaker 1: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and
32:39
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor
32:43
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is
32:45
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure
32:49
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32:56
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33:00
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