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Kaira Rouda Keeps You in Suspense! · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
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Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't be here talking to you if I
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Speaker 2: had given up, because this whole business is about I mean, unfortunately,
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Speaker 2: it's brought with rejection and it's really easy to start
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Speaker 2: second guessing yourself. So always tell people the number one
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Speaker 2: thing to do is keep writing, and the number two
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Speaker 2: thing is not to give up. I really do think
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Speaker 2: that people that make it in this business have a
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Speaker 2: lot of resilience.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
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Speaker 1: winning author of the want ln Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey there writers, thanks for joining
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Speaker 3: us today. I understand that the non profit organization known
0:50
Speaker 3: as Nano Raimo is shutting down in the way Convector
0:55
Speaker 3: already has as I record this in the wake of
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Speaker 3: a scandal involving a I mean, I just thought Nano
1:03
Speaker 3: Ramo was a thing people did every November. I didn't
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Speaker 3: know there was like a nonprofit organization. I guess that's
1:09
Speaker 3: okay because now there isn't anymore. But don't let that
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Speaker 3: stop you from writing. My writing friends, you don't need November,
1:18
Speaker 3: and you don't need to do it in a month,
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Speaker 3: which is basically impossible. A draft in a month maybe
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Speaker 3: a finished Polish novel. No, And I've always worried that
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Speaker 3: this plan for generating a book in thirty days would
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Speaker 3: or has led people to release books before they were ready. Laura,
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Speaker 3: what do you think Have you ever written a book
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Speaker 3: in thirty days?
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Speaker 4: No?
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Speaker 2: No, we're close.
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Speaker 4: No, we're close.
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Speaker 5: And I never attempted to participate in Nano Ramo because
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Speaker 5: I feel very strongly that if I put limits on
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Speaker 5: myself like that, it would just lead to disappointment and frustration.
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Speaker 5: And I'm I wouldn't enjoy that process. But I know
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Speaker 5: people who did rely on that to help motivate them
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Speaker 5: to crank out their first draft, and I feel bad
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Speaker 5: for them, so hopefully they can find that motivation on
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Speaker 5: their own.
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Speaker 4: I do agree with you that I think it's led
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Speaker 4: to the idea that.
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Speaker 5: A whole novel can just be knocked out in a
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Speaker 5: couple of days and boom, you're ready to release.
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Speaker 3: Four days in that Bradley Cooper movie, As I I
2:30
Speaker 3: can't think what that was called. Sometimes on this subject
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Speaker 3: where your tipe of people will say, well, you know,
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Speaker 3: Fitzgerald wrote The Great Gatsby and I forget twenty four
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Speaker 3: days or something like that. I'm like, yeah, but that
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Speaker 3: wasn't the first draft. He'd already done. It was almost
2:44
Speaker 3: published as Tromacchio, a whole different thing, and then he
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Speaker 3: rewrote that and it's short too, So I mean, you know,
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Speaker 3: come on, ye, Jesse. Since you don't write, I won't
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Speaker 3: ask you the same question. But have you ever read
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Speaker 3: a book that you felt like I had been written
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Speaker 3: in thirty days?
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Speaker 5: Anny?
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Speaker 1: James Parrisondo, I'm like, he can write it.
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Speaker 3: You can write a.
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Speaker 1: Book on thirty days. He just assigns it to four
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Speaker 1: of his ghostwriters.
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Speaker 6: Long.
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Speaker 3: I should have known that was coming. Why did I
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Speaker 3: not see that coming?
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Speaker 2: Gotcha, James.
3:23
Speaker 3: Our interview today is with Kara Ruda. She's a friend
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Speaker 3: of the podcast and the author of many best selling
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Speaker 3: novels of domestic suspense. She's been translated into more than
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Speaker 3: a dozen languages. Three of her novels have been Amazon
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Speaker 3: number one editor picks, and her book book The Next Wife.
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Speaker 3: That's when we had her here before. That's when I
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Speaker 3: stutter her. It's when I'm trying to think two things
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Speaker 3: at once and I can't pick which one. But you
3:52
Speaker 3: didn't want to hear about that. Anyway. She was here
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Speaker 3: for the Next Wife, and that won a bunch of awards,
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Speaker 3: including being one of Suspense mag Magazine's Best books of
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Speaker 3: the year. Her new novel is called Jill Is Not Happy.
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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to talking to talking with her about
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Speaker 3: all that and more. But first the news news story
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Speaker 3: number one, and unfortunately, this is another one you might
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Speaker 3: be able to file under Jesse. This was your category
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Speaker 3: the author's behaving badly or something like that. Well, this
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Speaker 3: story involves romanticy and entangle, the now very famous publisher
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Speaker 3: of the unexed Storm and other things and idea theft.
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Speaker 3: Bear with me, it's going to take a minute to
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Speaker 3: explain the background so you understand what's going on. So
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Speaker 3: autumn of twenty ten, Lynn Freeman, who was a family
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Speaker 3: law attorney and an unpublished author, finished up her novel
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Speaker 3: Blue Moon Rising, which involved a teenage girl named Anna.
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Speaker 3: She falls in love with a werewolf and she learns
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Speaker 3: that she has magical powers. Obviously, this is a fantasy novel,
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Speaker 3: but the author drew on her own experiences growing up
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Speaker 3: in Alaska. After she finished it, she signed with an agent,
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Speaker 3: Emily Sylvan Kim, who is the founder of Prospect Agency,
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Speaker 3: a small firm in New Jersey. Kim sent pitches for
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Speaker 3: this book to more than a dozen publishers. Results were
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Speaker 3: not good. By March of twenty fourteen, everybody one publisher
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Speaker 3: had said no. However, Entangled hadn't, and so she withdrew
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Speaker 3: her outstanding submission from Entangled. In twenty twenty one, Freeman
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Speaker 3: and her son are at a bookstore and they see
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Speaker 3: this book called Crave by Tracy Wolfe, read the descriptions,
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Speaker 3: see that it was published by Entangled, and start to have,
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Speaker 3: as she says, a panic attack. She immediately spotted what
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Speaker 3: she says are similarities to her own unpublished book. The
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Speaker 3: lead character's name had been changed it was Grace, not Anna,
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Speaker 3: and the love interest was a vampire not a werewolf.
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Speaker 3: But in both stories, the heroin moves from San Diego
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Speaker 3: to Alaska after members of her family are killed in
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Speaker 3: an accident. She lives with the only two relatives she
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Speaker 3: believes she has left, both of whom are witches. A
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Speaker 3: female rival slips her drugs there's a lot of them,
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Speaker 3: an intimate moment under the northern lights, and a climactic
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Speaker 3: scene where the evil Empire or Wherewolf kidnaps her and
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Speaker 3: she ends up accidentally freeing a different one. All of
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Speaker 3: these things occur in both books. In addition to the
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Speaker 3: obvious similarities, Freeman is pointing out that it has details
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Speaker 3: that could only have come from her, like a Crave's
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Speaker 3: opening scene describes flying in a little puddle jumper above Alaska.
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Speaker 3: That's what Freeman's grandfather did. He was a bush pilot.
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Speaker 3: So she's like, where else could this have come from me?
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Speaker 3: I expect the answer would be, well, we did a
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Speaker 3: lot of research or something like that. Anyway, you've probably
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Speaker 3: seen this coming already. Everybody hired lawyers, they said, a
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Speaker 3: lawyer threatening legal action to the agent who submitted it
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Speaker 3: to Entangled and also has some connection to Wolf. And
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Speaker 3: now Universal has optioned the Crave books. And anyway, so
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Speaker 3: she sends this threatening legal letter, say, and this is
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Speaker 3: a quote. I really assumed that they would just apologize
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Speaker 3: and fix it. Not what She's never worked in a
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Speaker 3: law firm. Not what happened. Two days later, the lawyers
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Speaker 3: for Entangled issued or response stating that quote neither the
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Speaker 3: author nor the agent ever heard of Freeman, and so
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Speaker 3: Freeman filed a copyright infringement lawsuit. Okay, well that was
8:40
Speaker 3: a long walk to the short point. But the point is,
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Speaker 3: you know, it hasn't even gone to trial yet, and
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Speaker 3: this has in fact cost the author Freeman several hundred
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Speaker 3: thousand dollars and Entangled is spent more than a million.
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Speaker 3: So I got a I think the best thing is
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Speaker 3: to not get into situations like this in the first place.
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Speaker 3: So only deal with professionals, only deal with people you trust.
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Speaker 2: You know.
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Speaker 3: The problem here really isn't that somebody else saw her book.
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Speaker 6: It's that.
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Speaker 3: Maybe if what she says is true did occur, that
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Speaker 3: you know, people have ideas close at hand and they'll
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Speaker 3: remember them and possibly use them. I don't know, Laura,
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Speaker 3: bail me out here. Let's assume that everything Freeman says
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Speaker 3: is true. Is that I mean, it's not plagiarism. Nobody's
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Speaker 3: claiming that absolute words, you know, a sequence of the
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Speaker 3: same words were repeated. It's just idea theft. Is that
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Speaker 3: a copyright infringement?
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Speaker 5: Oh I am not a copyright attorney or any attorney.
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Speaker 3: And you still wouldn't know the answer even if you were,
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Speaker 3: because they don't know the answer.
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Speaker 5: I think it's very easy for any author to put
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Speaker 5: themselves into her position and imagine this happening. In fact,
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Speaker 5: I hear it all the time. People don't want to
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Speaker 5: submit an entire manuscript to an agent, to an editor,
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Speaker 5: to a small publisher who just accepts them for fear
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Speaker 5: that someone will steal their idea and go write basically
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Speaker 5: their book, but just a little bit different.
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Speaker 4: And so this does kind of make me sick.
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Speaker 5: I reassure people all the time, we're all professionals, we
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Speaker 5: wouldn't do that, and writers wouldn't.
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Speaker 3: I think, right right. What I backed off of before
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Speaker 3: was saying, you know, it's not writers who are going
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Speaker 3: to rip you off, it's corporations or exactly people and
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Speaker 3: other professions related to writers who may or may not
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Speaker 3: be as scrupulous as they should.
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Speaker 5: I think I would need to see I think I
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Speaker 5: would need to see the evidence in it, because we
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Speaker 5: also have that happened where we see similarities because some
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Speaker 5: of us just have kind of the same ideas. We
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Speaker 5: were just interviewing an author that started talking about the
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Speaker 5: setup for their series, and I thought that there's a
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Speaker 5: lot familiar, even a character with a very very similar name,
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Speaker 5: but it obviously diverged and there were different stories, but
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Speaker 5: people had the same ideas, and I would probably need
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Speaker 5: to see exactly what she says had to have.
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Speaker 4: Come from her novel.
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Speaker 5: But for her to she has to be feeling this
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Speaker 5: very strongly to take that kind of action and not
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Speaker 5: just let it go.
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Speaker 3: So every member of the jury would have to read
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Speaker 3: both books. Jesse. When I read this story, what I
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Speaker 3: remembered was, you know this episode of The Simpsons where
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Speaker 3: Homer and his crew are going to write a young
12:02
Speaker 3: adult novel, so they basically do Harry Potter, but make
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Speaker 3: superficial changes. Instead of instead of wizards, they'll be vampires.
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Speaker 3: Well this story, instead of were wolves, they're vampires. Is
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Speaker 3: this what people do in the fantasy world?
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Speaker 1: Well, so, you know, this is one of those problems
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Speaker 1: where like, if you go under the assumption that every
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Speaker 1: story has already been told and Western fiction sort of
12:29
Speaker 1: based off the sort of Joseph Campbell hero model, then yeah,
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Speaker 1: every story is gonna have similarities to other stories. But
12:36
Speaker 1: if you wrote it first, right, Like I feel like
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Speaker 1: it was a guest on this show because I've always
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Speaker 1: remembered this fact, which is like or maybe Berry told
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Speaker 1: me this, like after you've written a draft of your novel,
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Speaker 1: like mail it to yourself and lead it sealed so
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Speaker 1: that you can prove date wise that you wrote the
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Speaker 1: growth the thing first. Right, Yeah, it's you know, it's
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Speaker 1: one of those things where if something's not super you know, original,
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Speaker 1: how can you tell who did it first? It is
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Speaker 1: a little fishy that, like, she got turned down a
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Speaker 1: lot by publishers. One of those publishers and also happened
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Speaker 1: to publish this book. It feels very much like these
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Speaker 1: sort of Babylon five D Space nine story.
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Speaker 3: Right, it might have been a you know, a good
13:17
Speaker 3: idea but not expressed as well. Yeah, but you know
13:23
Speaker 3: again go to writerons.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, so I mean I feel bad for her
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Speaker 1: either way, but you know you got to That's why
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Speaker 1: you know, there are resources to learn how to protect
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Speaker 1: yourself from things like this.
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Speaker 3: That's very true. All right, New story number two. Well
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Speaker 3: we're back to AI, but I couldn't let this go.
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Speaker 3: There's a new program. Is that an app? Is that
13:45
Speaker 3: the same whatever? It's called Muse, and it's the first
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Speaker 3: AI program specifically targeting writers now, in our last episode
13:57
Speaker 3: we found out that people like AI poetry better than
14:00
Speaker 3: human poetry, and now we have an AI program to
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Speaker 3: write fiction. So I'm a little nervous. I haven't used it.
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Speaker 3: And this is an announcement of news, not a recommendation.
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Speaker 3: But I've been to the website which talks about its
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Speaker 3: values to writers promising to be and these are all
14:21
Speaker 3: quotes the go to creative sidekick for pro authors. They
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Speaker 3: promise peerless prose, stellar openings, chapter linked outputs, high quality fiction.
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Speaker 3: And then they have a bunch of endorsements from writers
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Speaker 3: I've never heard of before. Laura, would you be willing
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Speaker 3: to give this a dry.
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Speaker 5: Mm?
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Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm dubious. I'm I'm old school writers
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Speaker 4: right there? Same, yeah, well an old, old, old and
14:55
Speaker 4: old school. I'm send of my ways.
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Speaker 5: But like, I think that writers should write their own stuff.
15:02
Speaker 5: But that said, Ralph had some lovely beginnings of stories
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Speaker 5: based on Bustifer and One Offred that were absolutely delightful
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Speaker 5: and thoroughly entertained me while he was sharing those with us.
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Speaker 5: So if it could maybe help with an outline, I
15:24
Speaker 5: don't know, flip.
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Speaker 3: It, Jesse. So you're not a writer, writer, as you
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Speaker 3: remind us often, but you must have to write things.
15:34
Speaker 3: Sometimes you're writing email or you're writing letters or whatever.
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Speaker 6: Would you use muse.
15:43
Speaker 2: Uh so?
15:43
Speaker 1: And I feel like I've said this on the podcast before.
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Speaker 1: I've used AI to help me write like minutes from
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Speaker 1: a meeting, like a board meeting that I'm secretary of,
15:51
Speaker 1: right to help me take my sporadic notes and turn
15:55
Speaker 1: it into more you know, adult sounding where But again,
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Speaker 1: why are people spaying time having AI tools do the
16:08
Speaker 1: things that are creative versus helpful?
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Speaker 6: Yeah, we don't need this.
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Speaker 1: I need an AI to notice that I put a
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Speaker 1: calendar thing to do something and then I didn't do it,
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Speaker 1: and so I can remind me again to do it.
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Speaker 1: That's what we want work on that people, Yes, agreed. Also,
16:30
Speaker 1: not a very clever name because there are multiple use
16:32
Speaker 1: AI websites that do different things.
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Speaker 3: So would it be a good name if it had
16:39
Speaker 3: been used fourteen times or something like that? Yeah, okay, anyway,
16:43
Speaker 3: let's move on to Craft Corner today. We're going to
16:47
Speaker 3: have a few words from Marty Ludlam. You remember he
16:50
Speaker 3: was on the podcast a few months ago January, I think,
16:54
Speaker 3: talking about his new mystery novel at First I Was Afraid, Well,
16:59
Speaker 3: I'll be has a disco theme. Anyway, He's here today
17:03
Speaker 3: to talk about how to inject mystery into any story.
17:07
Speaker 3: Take it away, Marty.
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Speaker 7: Craft Quarner.
17:17
Speaker 6: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to Bad Words with Marty. I'm Marty Ludlam,
17:22
Speaker 6: your author and guide. Today is the first episode of
17:27
Speaker 6: Bad Words with Marty. Don't worry, it's not that kind
17:32
Speaker 6: of bad words about me. I am the award winning
17:37
Speaker 6: author of the Disco Diva series. I laugh a little
17:40
Speaker 6: bit every time I mentioned that, because I can't believe
17:42
Speaker 6: I really won some award. My novel's feature, the ultimate
17:47
Speaker 6: hero of America, Donna Summer, was NICKI. Yes, she's named
17:51
Speaker 6: after the disco queen. It's a long story. Check it
17:55
Speaker 6: out at ludlambooks dot net. My first book, At First,
18:00
Speaker 6: I Was Afraid, Boom Boom Boom, came out November twenty
18:04
Speaker 6: twenty four by Babylon Books. Check it out on Amazon,
18:10
Speaker 6: Barnes and Noble and everywhere books are sold. In this podcast,
18:16
Speaker 6: I want to mention we're focusing on words, words especially
18:21
Speaker 6: that make your writing weak and ineffective. Today's word drum
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Speaker 6: roll please, And of course the drummers on strike. Almost. Yeah,
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Speaker 6: terrible terrible word almost is one of those words where
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Speaker 6: good writing goes to die. Consider the couple of examples.
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Speaker 6: I was almost freezing. I was almost crying in pain.
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Speaker 6: I was almost pregnant. Don't get me started on the
19:00
Speaker 6: last one. All of those are actually very weak. Now,
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Speaker 6: I'm not saying go through and delete the word almost,
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Speaker 6: because that really doesn't help. Even if you go through
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Speaker 6: and delete the word almost, I was almost freezing and
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Speaker 6: change it to I was freezing, it's not much of
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Speaker 6: an improvement. You're still telling instead of showing. You need
19:24
Speaker 6: to show for the reader. You need to be definite,
19:32
Speaker 6: be dramatic, paint a picture for the reader. I was
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Speaker 6: almost doing something. Never paints that picture. Instead, consider this.
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Speaker 6: I'd been walking for four days in the frozen woods.
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Speaker 6: My hands were numb, my face no longer had feeling.
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Speaker 6: My breath rose like a gray cloud. Each breath burned
20:02
Speaker 6: on the way in. I couldn't go much further. Yeah,
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Speaker 6: that's much more powerful than I was almost freezing, Even
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Speaker 6: though in the author or that's what you were thinking.
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Speaker 6: You've got to convey the details. Now. Sometimes my author
20:21
Speaker 6: friends and I were discussing this and said, sometimes maybe
20:26
Speaker 6: you need the word almost, especially when you're talking about distances.
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Speaker 6: I was almost at the end of the driveway. I
20:32
Speaker 6: was almost to your house. I almost reached my car.
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Speaker 6: I think.
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Speaker 5: No.
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Speaker 6: Even then, those little details, just a couple words here
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Speaker 6: and there, changed the whole picture that's painted for the reader.
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Speaker 6: Consider this one. I was two steps away from my
20:50
Speaker 6: car door when someone grabbed me from behind. Not I
20:57
Speaker 6: was almost to my car. The smallest details matter when
21:03
Speaker 6: you're painting that picture for the reader. Those details can
21:07
Speaker 6: also build tension. Classic horror movie Children of the Corn
21:13
Speaker 6: from the Stephen King Story against spoiler alert. If you
21:17
Speaker 6: haven't seen it, you're the one of the three people
21:20
Speaker 6: on earth who haven't seen it. But be it as
21:23
Speaker 6: it may. Remember, our young couple is driving across the country.
21:27
Speaker 6: I can't even remember why they're driving across country doesn't matter.
21:31
Speaker 6: The important thing is they don't want to stop in Gatlin.
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Speaker 6: They come up on an intersection. Turn right, five miles
21:40
Speaker 6: to Gatland, so they turn left. They drive for little ways.
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Speaker 6: Next sign says four miles to Gatlin straight ahead. They
21:52
Speaker 6: turn right. They drive a few miles two miles to Gatlan.
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Speaker 6: No matter which direction they go and how far they drive,
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Speaker 6: They're always getting closer to Gatlin. And those details, the
22:06
Speaker 6: ticking countdown from five miles to four miles to three miles,
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Speaker 6: or those little details that add tension to that story. Now, instead,
22:16
Speaker 6: imagine that same narrative the couple driving and as they
22:20
Speaker 6: drive they see a sign that says, you're almost to Gatlin.
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Speaker 6: You're almost to Gatlin, You're almost to Gatlin. Zero Tenson.
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Speaker 6: It just doesn't do it. Those little details paint the
22:36
Speaker 6: picture for the reader. And almost is one of those
22:39
Speaker 6: words you just need to clean out of your vocabulary
22:43
Speaker 6: again when you go through your text, search for it
22:47
Speaker 6: and rewrite those sections. Make sure you are showing, not
22:52
Speaker 6: just telling. Yeah almost as yucky. I couldn't have said
22:58
Speaker 6: it better myself. If you have questions or suggestions, or
23:06
Speaker 6: you want to make a voodoo doll in my likeness,
23:09
Speaker 6: contact me. There's my email address. If not, I'll see
23:13
Speaker 6: you next time on Bad Words with Marty.
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Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Thank you so much, Marty Ludlun. All right,
23:22
Speaker 3: now let's talk to Kara Ruda. Kara Ruda, welcome back
23:32
Speaker 3: to the podcast.
23:34
Speaker 2: Thank you, William, so happy to be there here again.
23:38
Speaker 3: So you probably already know this. But the first question,
23:41
Speaker 3: if you could offer writers one piece of advice.
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Speaker 2: What would it be. Well, I wouldn't be here talking
23:48
Speaker 2: to you if I had given up, because this whole
23:51
Speaker 2: business is about I mean, unfortunately, it's brought with rejection
23:55
Speaker 2: and it's really easy to start second guessing yourself. So
23:58
Speaker 2: always tell people the number one thing to do is
24:00
Speaker 2: keep writing, and the number two thing is not to
24:03
Speaker 2: give up. I really do think that people that make
24:05
Speaker 2: it in this business have a lot of resilience.
24:09
Speaker 3: I think you're right. This is a business where, even
24:12
Speaker 3: though it seems counterintuitive, perseverance is even more important than talent. Yep,
24:20
Speaker 3: I thanks sadly, talent a lot of people have it.
24:24
Speaker 3: Perseverance h much smaller, and this is a tough business
24:30
Speaker 3: to break into it. How long did it take you
24:32
Speaker 3: to get your first book published?
24:34
Speaker 2: Gosh, let's see, Well, I wanted to write since third grade,
24:38
Speaker 2: so that's been a while.
24:40
Speaker 3: So if you count from when you were eight, then
24:42
Speaker 3: it was a long time.
24:43
Speaker 2: It's a long time. But I guess what. My life
24:48
Speaker 2: was kind of funny because I always knew I wanted
24:49
Speaker 2: to be an author, but I never had the confidence
24:51
Speaker 2: to go forth and do it. So I was a
24:54
Speaker 2: journalist and a magazine editor, and then I went into
24:56
Speaker 2: the advertising agency world and copywriting, and I think I've
25:00
Speaker 2: done every type of writing you can imagine at that point.
25:03
Speaker 2: Went into marketing as a vice president of an INK
25:07
Speaker 2: one hundred company and did that for a lot of times,
25:09
Speaker 2: and joined my husband and we started a business together
25:12
Speaker 2: and rolled it out. And during that time I got
25:14
Speaker 2: to work with all these amazing women entrepreneurs. So I
25:17
Speaker 2: had a chance to write a book, and on fiction
25:19
Speaker 2: book that was your first, right, Yeah, that was my first.
25:22
Speaker 2: So that was like, I guess seven two thousand and eight.
25:25
Speaker 2: But I never thought i'd write a business book. I
25:27
Speaker 2: you know, I always dreamed of writing a novel. So
25:30
Speaker 2: that was funny. And I also didn't realize that if
25:32
Speaker 2: you write a non fiction book, you have to go
25:34
Speaker 2: on book tour for it and you know, like to
25:36
Speaker 2: business conferences and all of this stuff. But I was
25:39
Speaker 2: totally shy. I'm like, go on nuts. So then I
25:41
Speaker 2: had to get a speech coach so that I was speaking.
25:44
Speaker 2: I'm like, everything I know is in the book, just
25:46
Speaker 2: read the book. But anyway, so I went on tour
25:48
Speaker 2: and I was in Austin, Texas at this women's expo,
25:52
Speaker 2: and I was telling people to it's never too late
25:55
Speaker 2: to live the life of your dreams and to put
25:56
Speaker 2: your passions into action, and all of my kind of
25:59
Speaker 2: talk about my book. And this woman raised her hand
26:03
Speaker 2: and asked me, so have you done it? Have you
26:05
Speaker 2: done everything you wanted to do? And I still want
26:07
Speaker 2: to write a novel. And she's like, well, what are
26:09
Speaker 2: you doing that. I'm like, you know what, You're right,
26:11
Speaker 2: So I did. I went back. We had moved across
26:13
Speaker 2: the country and my kids were settled in school, and
26:16
Speaker 2: I sat down and I wrote my first novel. And
26:20
Speaker 2: I didn't get it published by anybody.
26:21
Speaker 3: So you say you didn't get it published.
26:26
Speaker 2: I got an agent and I guess.
26:28
Speaker 3: Is that the second one that got published?
26:30
Speaker 6: No?
26:30
Speaker 2: So this one the first one here home hope. I
26:33
Speaker 2: went with a green Leaf Book Group, which is kind
26:36
Speaker 2: of a what do they call it, like a hybrid publisher,
26:39
Speaker 2: and they, you know, they only accept a few people,
26:42
Speaker 2: but they also pay for the services to you to
26:45
Speaker 2: get it published. But you know, they were great to
26:47
Speaker 2: work with, so professional, like their editors were from New
26:50
Speaker 2: York and I really was a great experience and I
26:53
Speaker 2: think mostly I was kind of impatient. I got a
26:56
Speaker 2: lot of rejections, and I didn't I was used to
26:57
Speaker 2: being in marketing and kind of doing stuff for myself.
27:00
Speaker 2: So I did a start so and then I did
27:03
Speaker 2: two more books self published, and then I got my
27:06
Speaker 2: first traditional publishing.
27:08
Speaker 6: Right.
27:09
Speaker 3: Well, you you you earned it. I'd say. The hardest
27:13
Speaker 3: thing would be trying to convince after you've published nonfiction,
27:18
Speaker 3: can you jump to fiction, because people seem to object
27:22
Speaker 3: any time you want to do anything different, right right.
27:25
Speaker 5: I've also heard from some people though, that if you
27:29
Speaker 5: have published yourself, if you've indie published, that you probably
27:34
Speaker 5: have less chance of being picked up by a traditional publisher.
27:37
Speaker 5: So I find it very encouraging that you you did
27:40
Speaker 5: go that route.
27:41
Speaker 2: Well, and that's why I tell everybody I think it's
27:44
Speaker 2: bandwidth with self publishing. You learned so much about the
27:47
Speaker 2: marketing side of it. You learn about packaging, absolutely, algorithms,
27:51
Speaker 2: you learn all this valuable information that you know. Is
27:55
Speaker 2: it harder to do it that way? I think so yes?
27:57
Speaker 2: And is it harder? The whole problem with self publishing
28:01
Speaker 2: is the distribution and the competition. Now, so that is
28:04
Speaker 2: the negative side, right, But you do, you learn so
28:06
Speaker 2: much and actually, if you just carry on, don't give
28:10
Speaker 2: up that whole resilience thing. Self publishing your learning. Every
28:13
Speaker 2: book you write your learning. So when you have a
28:15
Speaker 2: chance and you get your big break with the traditional publisher,
28:19
Speaker 2: those self published titles get a huge lift. Yes, it's nice.
28:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be nice. Okay, so now you've got
28:28
Speaker 3: more than twenty books in print.
28:31
Speaker 2: Nice.
28:31
Speaker 3: And if there seems to be a unifying theme, and
28:35
Speaker 3: you already know, I'm going to say there is, or
28:37
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have started this question that way. But if
28:40
Speaker 3: there is one, it might be uh, trying to peek
28:45
Speaker 3: behind the curtain of seemingly perfect lives. Does that sound accurate?
28:52
Speaker 6: That?
28:52
Speaker 2: Does that? Does? That's always been my fascination and fact
28:55
Speaker 2: when I first my first three novels are what they
28:58
Speaker 2: consider women's fiction, I don't really know what that means.
29:01
Speaker 2: Women read most of books anyways. I think I'll fix
29:03
Speaker 2: this for one but let's just say so. And then
29:06
Speaker 2: I went two years into romance, which I had never
29:09
Speaker 2: had a friend that started romance imprint and she said
29:12
Speaker 2: try romance. So I tried that and I had a
29:15
Speaker 2: great two years there. I realized I'm not good at
29:16
Speaker 2: sex scenes, so I had to get out of that,
29:18
Speaker 2: so then I went into domestic suspense. But the thing
29:22
Speaker 2: is that unifies all of my stories is that whole
29:25
Speaker 2: notion of nobody's life is perfect, and if somebody's trying
29:29
Speaker 2: to make you think it is, then there's probably something
29:31
Speaker 2: horribly wrong going on there. And that kind of does
29:35
Speaker 2: work its way through everything, and especially now with domestic
29:38
Speaker 2: suspense and kind of my thrillers, there's definitely always something
29:42
Speaker 2: terrible going on.
29:43
Speaker 3: Well, another thing I really like about your books is humor,
29:47
Speaker 3: which uh, I mean, I've written thrillers too, and I
29:50
Speaker 3: remember being specifically told this was back in the nineties.
29:53
Speaker 3: Toned down the humor. That's not what guys want to
29:56
Speaker 3: see in a thriller. You know, they want a big,
29:59
Speaker 3: thick action impact. But you're getting away with it. In fact,
30:03
Speaker 3: you've got a fairly wicked wit. I'd be willing to say, so,
30:09
Speaker 3: is this risky? Is this something your publisher encourages?
30:13
Speaker 2: You know, I've never had any fishback on my characters starting. Yeah,
30:18
Speaker 2: not at all, because I think what I'd like to
30:21
Speaker 2: think I use it for is I write a lot
30:23
Speaker 2: of first person unreliable narrators. And if they're making you laugh,
30:27
Speaker 2: then they're probably distracting you for some something devious they're
30:30
Speaker 2: actually doing. So if I can keep you laughing when
30:33
Speaker 2: there's something going on, then it's kind of a double
30:36
Speaker 2: WHEMMI when you find out what's really happening.
30:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, very cool way of planning a clue but making
30:43
Speaker 3: it not seem like a clue. It's just a joke.
30:46
Speaker 2: Right, I'm throwing you off.
30:47
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Well tell us about Jill is not Happy.
30:50
Speaker 5: You've piqued my interest. I'd like to hear more.
30:53
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you. Yes, Jill is Not Hoppy comes
30:55
Speaker 2: out June tenth, and it is. I guess they're called
30:59
Speaker 2: marital thriller. I seem to write about husbands and wives
31:02
Speaker 2: behaving badly and this is no exception. And this you
31:05
Speaker 2: will meet the perfect couple wink Jack and Jill Tingley,
31:09
Speaker 2: and they are having a little bit of marital strife.
31:12
Speaker 2: So Jill suggests that they go on a road trip
31:15
Speaker 2: together to kind of reinvigorate their marriage and spend some
31:19
Speaker 2: quality time together. So what starts as a road trip
31:22
Speaker 2: ends up, you know, going haywire.
31:25
Speaker 3: And whoever argued during a road tripped.
31:30
Speaker 2: Right, and yeah, they go to the Utah National Parks.
31:33
Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys have been there before,
31:34
Speaker 2: but like Zion and Bryce k Oh, my gosh.
31:37
Speaker 4: I would like to go there, but I haven't been.
31:39
Speaker 2: They're beautiful and my husband and I actually went there
31:42
Speaker 2: during the pandemic because we were stuck at home and
31:46
Speaker 2: so we go there and it's beautiful, but they're also
31:49
Speaker 2: like very scary places there because it's such extreme landscape.
31:53
Speaker 2: So I'm just thinking, Wow, this would be a great
31:56
Speaker 2: place to kill somebody. Should I want to do that fictionally?
32:00
Speaker 2: So yeah, so that's kind of where the story has sparked.
32:03
Speaker 2: And my books, it's hard with domestic suspense. I find
32:07
Speaker 2: to talk about them too much without giving anything away.
32:09
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's just a Jill wants them to stay
32:13
Speaker 2: together and Jack might have other plans, but that is me.
32:16
Speaker 5: That sounds like maybe the real life inspiration for your plot.
32:21
Speaker 5: Did you have real life inspirations for your characters as well?
32:26
Speaker 2: No, not really, I think they Usually what happens is
32:30
Speaker 2: a character pops into my head and then they kind
32:33
Speaker 2: of start talking to me, which sounds crazy, but it's fun,
32:36
Speaker 2: and so Jill kind of popped into my head and
32:38
Speaker 2: I'm not sure where she came from, but I mean
32:41
Speaker 2: there's inspiration all around for couples who are seemingly happy
32:47
Speaker 2: and they aren't. In this case, Jill just wants what
32:50
Speaker 2: she's always wanted, which is Jack, and you know, to her,
32:53
Speaker 2: it's pretty simple. It's you know, we are the perfect couple.
32:56
Speaker 2: You and I belong together, and I'm going to do
32:59
Speaker 2: everything being possible to keep us together, even if Jack
33:02
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily want that.
33:06
Speaker 5: And this, it sounds like, is particularly full of like
33:11
Speaker 5: really shocking plot twists.
33:14
Speaker 4: And I'm gonna ask you a question that I get
33:16
Speaker 4: asked and I hate I'm gonna ask you anyway, how
33:18
Speaker 4: do you come up with this?
33:19
Speaker 6: Like?
33:20
Speaker 2: How how do you? How do you plot that out? Yeah?
33:24
Speaker 2: I'm a pancer actually, so I don't. Yeah, I don't
33:28
Speaker 2: really plot. So that's why when I say my characters
33:31
Speaker 2: take over, they actually really do take over while I'm writing.
33:35
Speaker 2: So she Jill scared me a lot too, like Jill,
33:38
Speaker 2: what are you doing?
33:39
Speaker 6: So?
33:40
Speaker 2: Like she just would surprise me. And yeah, she She's
33:43
Speaker 2: definitely one of my more crafty, more a little bit
33:47
Speaker 2: darker characters, I have to say, But It is kind
33:50
Speaker 2: of fun in the way that I write because I
33:53
Speaker 2: don't actually know what she's going to do next. So
33:56
Speaker 2: I'll be up here in my office and if any
33:59
Speaker 2: of my characters can do this to me, I've had
34:01
Speaker 2: it happened before, and they just scare me and I
34:03
Speaker 2: have to close my computer and then go running down
34:05
Speaker 2: stick get away from them for a while. Really. Yeah, yeah, that.
34:09
Speaker 4: Is a very visceral response, it is.
34:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they're actually in my head, so they're following
34:15
Speaker 2: me downstairs, but I picture them staying inside the computer.
34:20
Speaker 6: Hm.
34:20
Speaker 3: Wow, Okay. I know some of your books of the
34:24
Speaker 3: past have been optioned for film. What about Jill? You
34:28
Speaker 3: think she's got movie potential?
34:30
Speaker 2: You know, I like to think all of my books
34:32
Speaker 2: have the Hollywood sparkle potential, but as you know, that's
34:36
Speaker 2: a whole different industry. That's just it's kind of you know,
34:41
Speaker 2: I don't know what happens behind the Hollywood curtains, but
34:44
Speaker 2: if someone like peeks out and says, oh that your
34:47
Speaker 2: book would be good, that'd be awesome.
34:49
Speaker 3: Yeah. Did you go along with that?
34:51
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly.
34:52
Speaker 5: Yeah.
34:52
Speaker 2: I do have Beneath the Surface has been optioned, which
34:55
Speaker 2: is great, and it's this amazing up and coming director
34:58
Speaker 2: who I love talking to occasionally, and they have a
35:00
Speaker 2: really great script that they are happy with. So that's
35:03
Speaker 2: kind of moving along, but hopefully that will fingers crossed.
35:07
Speaker 3: I hope that happens for you. Yeah, I think you
35:09
Speaker 3: also founded the Killer Author Club. I'm not sure. Well
35:15
Speaker 3: you explained what is it?
35:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the Killer Author Club was creative. So I'm
35:21
Speaker 2: sitting here in my office and I have my second
35:24
Speaker 2: pandemic book coming out, and it was ironically called Somebody's
35:28
Speaker 2: Home and we're all trapped in our houses, and I
35:31
Speaker 2: was trying to figure out how do we even get
35:32
Speaker 2: the word out because you weren't going anywhere, you were
35:34
Speaker 2: just in your house. And so I thought, maybe maybe
35:37
Speaker 2: it would be fun to do a show about killing
35:39
Speaker 2: of the fictional kind from the perspective of thriller writers
35:42
Speaker 2: and suspense writers. And so I called up to my
35:45
Speaker 2: friends Heather gouden Cough and Kimberly Bell, who also had
35:48
Speaker 2: books coming out about the same time, and they're like, sure,
35:51
Speaker 2: let's do it. So we kind of it was kind
35:53
Speaker 2: of a whim and we started out and we started
35:56
Speaker 2: out like the three of us talking about killing in
35:58
Speaker 2: the fictional kind, and then we started inviting gas and
36:01
Speaker 2: almost three years later, we've had, you know, tons of episodes.
36:04
Speaker 2: We do it every other Tuesday, and it's been really fun.
36:07
Speaker 2: Not only have we gotten to speak to all of
36:10
Speaker 2: our favorite authors, we've also just become really close friends.
36:15
Speaker 2: So it's been it was really fun to have them,
36:17
Speaker 2: especially during the pandemic when we couldn't go anywhere.
36:20
Speaker 3: That's funny. I went to the website for a Killer
36:22
Speaker 3: Author Club today and you had just posted an episode
36:25
Speaker 3: with Emily Carpenter, who was on our podcast episode before last. Okay,
36:31
Speaker 3: Gothic Down.
36:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. Actually I have that book right around here, so
36:36
Speaker 2: please yeah this scary book.
36:38
Speaker 3: Huh yeah, Okay, I don't want to embarrass you, but
36:43
Speaker 3: you have been very active in community affairs and civil service.
36:50
Speaker 3: I read you created the first walk in emergency shelter
36:53
Speaker 3: for homeless families in central Ohio, right.
36:56
Speaker 2: Amazing, Yeah, way back in the day. Yeah.
37:00
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to ask how do you find
37:02
Speaker 3: the time? And you know, how do you pick a project?
37:07
Speaker 2: I think you know what I've always found and I
37:09
Speaker 2: read about this in my first book, Really You Incorporated,
37:12
Speaker 2: is that the more you give, you get so much
37:15
Speaker 2: more back. And it sounds like such a cliche, but
37:18
Speaker 2: I find that once people get involved in their community,
37:21
Speaker 2: they're like they just get so much more back. So
37:24
Speaker 2: you're actually you're donating your time or your money or
37:26
Speaker 2: whatever you're donating, but then in return, it's just you know,
37:30
Speaker 2: without without even it's not even comfortable. I guess what
37:33
Speaker 2: you get back. And lately I've been on I was
37:35
Speaker 2: on the California Volunteer Commission, and our entire mission is
37:40
Speaker 2: to get everybody in California to just volunteer in their
37:44
Speaker 2: community at least one hour a week, which seems like
37:47
Speaker 2: naton nationally, if we were all doing that, everybody would
37:50
Speaker 2: get a lot closer. Yes. Yeah, So anyway, I encourage
37:56
Speaker 2: everybody to do it because you have a passion and
37:59
Speaker 2: you can tap into and you can help other people
38:01
Speaker 2: while you're doing it.
38:02
Speaker 5: That sounds amazing well, speaking approaching, Speaking of approaching projects,
38:08
Speaker 5: you've mentioned that you're a panther, You've already touched on that.
38:11
Speaker 5: How do you approach a new book project? How do
38:14
Speaker 5: you get started on that? Do you really just open
38:17
Speaker 5: up a word document and start typing? Do you have
38:19
Speaker 5: an outline, notes, anything?
38:22
Speaker 2: Nope? I mean my favorite way of writing. And you know,
38:25
Speaker 2: as you guys know, every book's different, so they're all
38:27
Speaker 2: a little somebody's more cranky than another book, and another
38:31
Speaker 2: character is like just ready to talk right away. But
38:34
Speaker 2: my favorite way to write is just opening up a
38:36
Speaker 2: word doc and start.
38:37
Speaker 5: I'm just going that's amazing. I have so many people
38:40
Speaker 5: tell me can they do that?
38:42
Speaker 4: Hang on?
38:43
Speaker 3: So sorry, well let's hit pause. He was getting louder
38:46
Speaker 3: and louder. Yeah, hang on, let me uh get any
38:50
Speaker 3: possibility of a shelter for elderly beagles or.
38:55
Speaker 6: You know what.
38:56
Speaker 2: I'm surprised to be have two dogs too. I'm surprised.
38:58
Speaker 2: Nobody barked in response. You know, they must be honest.
39:01
Speaker 3: He was barking. That's why she brought him into the
39:04
Speaker 3: room with her so he stopped sitting at the door
39:07
Speaker 3: and whining. Even though we're both in the same house,
39:10
Speaker 3: Jesse makes us sit in separate rooms to keep the
39:13
Speaker 3: sound the same. Yeah, you think our son Alan is
39:16
Speaker 3: now the dog?
39:19
Speaker 4: I texted him.
39:20
Speaker 5: I was like, come, I get away, but it wasn't
39:22
Speaker 5: quite creaky enough.
39:23
Speaker 3: Sorry, I don't even remember what we were saying. Is
39:25
Speaker 3: there a is there a way to get back into that. Yes,
39:29
Speaker 3: I think, so we asked the question if that works.
39:34
Speaker 5: I okay, so you've you've already touched on the fact
39:38
Speaker 5: that you are a pants not a planner.
39:41
Speaker 4: So how do you approach a new project? Do you
39:43
Speaker 4: keep it?
39:44
Speaker 5: Do you have to keep an outline or some notes,
39:46
Speaker 5: or do you really just open up a board document
39:48
Speaker 5: and start typing?
39:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's my favorite way to write is
39:53
Speaker 2: just opening the word documently. Yeah, it's so fun to me. Now,
39:58
Speaker 2: I will say, my agent and you know, editors like
40:01
Speaker 2: to kind of have an idea where you're going. And
40:04
Speaker 2: earlier i'd say, you know, like five years ago, I
40:07
Speaker 2: would write the book and then write an outline and
40:09
Speaker 2: then submit that. This is not a good way to
40:14
Speaker 2: write a book because let's just say they have changes
40:17
Speaker 2: and then you're like, oh nuts, because you've written a
40:19
Speaker 2: whole book. So to be a little more collaborative. But
40:23
Speaker 2: I find that if I talk about my stories too
40:25
Speaker 2: much before I write them, then my character is flatten
40:27
Speaker 2: out all of a sudden, they're just like interesting, So
40:30
Speaker 2: I try. I mean, my favorite way to do is
40:32
Speaker 2: to just secretly start writing and have a novel up
40:34
Speaker 2: here and then tell people about it.
40:37
Speaker 4: Well, I love that for you.
40:38
Speaker 5: I get so many questions when we speak at conferences
40:41
Speaker 5: or I have a session and people will people will
40:44
Speaker 5: tell me that they open up their document and they
40:46
Speaker 5: just stare at it and they can't get started.
40:48
Speaker 4: I'm like, that's not.
40:49
Speaker 5: Your process then, but it's your process, so that's cool, yeah,
40:54
Speaker 5: and it is not good that it stays that way,
40:56
Speaker 5: but that's not my favorite way to write, definitely. And
40:58
Speaker 5: what does a typical writing day look like for you?
41:02
Speaker 2: Now?
41:03
Speaker 4: You know?
41:03
Speaker 2: I have found that I am an afternoon, like an
41:06
Speaker 2: early afternoon to evening writer, that which I think is
41:09
Speaker 2: a little unusual. I kind of do the book marketing
41:12
Speaker 2: stuff in the morning and maybe play pick a ball,
41:14
Speaker 2: although now that I well, not so much.
41:17
Speaker 7: But yeah, well not for a minute, but I kind
41:21
Speaker 7: of like to do the exercise part and like get
41:23
Speaker 7: my day started that way, and then if I can
41:25
Speaker 7: sit down up here like by one o'clock and just
41:27
Speaker 7: write until my husband is like.
41:29
Speaker 2: Aren't you hungry yet? You know that that kind of
41:32
Speaker 2: like yeah, no time five hours or so is really fun. Nice.
41:37
Speaker 2: I like that.
41:39
Speaker 5: What are some things that you have learned so far
41:42
Speaker 5: in your writing journey? Because You've had quite a journey.
41:45
Speaker 5: You you've got an indie start, you've got over twenty books.
41:49
Speaker 5: What are some very helpful things.
41:51
Speaker 4: You might be able to share with our listeners.
41:54
Speaker 2: I mean, I do believe. Number one, it's the not
41:57
Speaker 2: giving up part, because if it is your dream to
41:59
Speaker 2: do this, then and the only way it's not going
42:01
Speaker 2: to happen is if you give up, Right, that's just
42:04
Speaker 2: the bottom line. So and as I said, there's many
42:06
Speaker 2: ways you can do it nowadays. So you can, you know, publish,
42:10
Speaker 2: you can hybrid or whatever it's called. And yeah, I
42:12
Speaker 2: mean there's just a lot of different options. But that's helpful.
42:16
Speaker 2: I think going to conferences and continuing to learn is
42:21
Speaker 2: really important. I'm going back and getting my MFA, which
42:24
Speaker 2: is funny because I always wanted to do that. And
42:28
Speaker 2: so I was at a book event and this other author,
42:31
Speaker 2: Todd Goldberg. They happened to double book us. Both of
42:33
Speaker 2: us were there and he writes crime too, but like
42:35
Speaker 2: more at the Hard Scrabble Detective, and he's talking about
42:39
Speaker 2: his book, and then it was my turn to talk
42:40
Speaker 2: about mind and he's like, and I'm also the director
42:43
Speaker 2: of the low residency MFA program at you see Riverside.
42:46
Speaker 2: I'm like, get out. That's what I've always wanted to do.
42:49
Speaker 2: I didn't even know there was one close enough for
42:51
Speaker 2: me to drive to it. So anyway, So I'm a
42:53
Speaker 2: student now and I do think learning and meeting with
42:58
Speaker 2: people or getting together with people who also have the
43:01
Speaker 2: same passion is really helpful.
43:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. All right, twenty plus books and a
43:07
Speaker 3: school career and a bunch of other projects as well.
43:11
Speaker 3: What's next for you?
43:13
Speaker 2: What's next? Well, My Jill Is Not Happy comes out
43:17
Speaker 2: in June, and then my next book is called we
43:19
Speaker 2: Were Never Friends, and that comes out in February. So
43:22
Speaker 2: I'm excited. You need to get you.
43:24
Speaker 3: Back then the same publishing house.
43:26
Speaker 2: No, this one's with Source Books.
43:28
Speaker 3: Oh nice, have your publicists with us whatever, so we'll know, Yeah,
43:33
Speaker 3: I will.
43:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to talk to you again.
43:36
Speaker 3: This has been a lot of fun, Kara, thanks so
43:38
Speaker 3: much for being on the podcast.
43:40
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for having me.
43:42
Speaker 3: Bye. Now, just a brief parting word. I want to
43:53
Speaker 3: remind you once again that the writer Con Cruise is
43:57
Speaker 3: coming up soon. It's May thirty, first June seventh, leaving
44:02
Speaker 3: from Seattle and heading for Alaska. Some of the most
44:06
Speaker 3: beautiful scenery you're ever likely to see. But when the
44:11
Speaker 3: boat is on the sea, you know, not in port.
44:15
Speaker 3: That's when we'll have our classes, over twenty hours of
44:18
Speaker 3: writing instruction. Different people agent on board, ready and willing
44:25
Speaker 3: to meet with you, and we hope you'll join us.
44:31
Speaker 3: But we'll also have the writing Retreat in July at
44:35
Speaker 3: Cane Break, which is on land, and we'll have small
44:40
Speaker 3: groups working focusing on whatever your work in progress might be.
44:46
Speaker 3: All right, all right, until next time, keep writing. Remember
44:52
Speaker 3: you cannot fail if you refuse to quit. See you
44:56
Speaker 3: next time.
45:00
Speaker 6: By then, as a spe