Latest / The Vault: The Epstein Files / Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 1-4) (8/8/26)

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Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 1-4) (8/8/26) · The Vault: The Epstein Files

0:00
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
0:02
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. So we have the Bill Barr transcript from
0:08
Speaker 1: his deposition that he gave to the committee when he
0:12
Speaker 1: sat down for a talk a few weeks ago. So
0:15
Speaker 1: in this episode, we're going to begin taking a look
0:18
Speaker 1: at that transcript and at what Bill Barr had to
0:21
Speaker 1: say during this interrogation, if you want to call it that.
0:26
Speaker 1: So obviously Bill Barr is going to be the one
0:28
Speaker 1: answering the questions, and we have a lot of redactions here,
0:31
Speaker 1: so if we don't have a name for the person
0:34
Speaker 1: asking the question, I'll say redacted, and then I'll ask
0:37
Speaker 1: the question, and then obviously the answers are from Bill
0:41
Speaker 1: Darth Barr, unless, of course, something changes, and if it does,
0:46
Speaker 1: I'll make sure I let you know as we're going
0:48
Speaker 1: through this. All right, So we're going to start with
0:51
Speaker 1: the examination and we're going to bypass them, swearing them
0:54
Speaker 1: in by redacted. So the person asking the questions is
0:59
Speaker 1: redact question. Very briefly, we want to go through your
1:03
Speaker 1: background and the only two experiences that I think are
1:06
Speaker 1: relevant today. Where did you attend undergrad in what year
1:09
Speaker 1: did you graduate? Barr graduated Columbia College in seventy one.
1:15
Speaker 1: I got my master's from Columbia in seventy three, went
1:17
Speaker 1: to law school at GW here in Washington at night,
1:20
Speaker 1: and graduated in nineteen seventy seven. Question, thank you. Answer?
1:25
Speaker 1: During that time I worked at CIA. Question and then
1:29
Speaker 1: President HW Bush appointed you to be United States Attorney
1:32
Speaker 1: General from ninety one to ninety three? Is that correct? Barr? Yes?
1:37
Speaker 1: I was in the department at the start of his
1:39
Speaker 1: administration and he ultimately appointed me attorney general. Question and
1:43
Speaker 1: then President Trump appointed you attorney general in February of
1:47
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and then you left in December of twenty
1:50
Speaker 1: twenty correct answer, right, I was confirmed in February of
1:55
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. Question were you acting prior to your confirmation? Answer?
2:00
Speaker 1: No question. Moving on to the topic at hand, just
2:04
Speaker 1: some preliminary questions. Have you ever met mister Epstein? Answer?
2:08
Speaker 1: Have I? What? Question? Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein? Barr?
2:14
Speaker 1: Not to my knowledge. Question I'll pause for a minute,
2:17
Speaker 1: Miss Crockett, do you mind identifying yourself for the record?
2:21
Speaker 1: And now we got Jasmin Crockett asking questions? Yes, Jasmin Crockett,
2:25
Speaker 1: Texas thirty question and then have you ever met Miss
2:29
Speaker 1: Glenn Maxwell? Answer not to my knowledge. Question in general,
2:34
Speaker 1: is the Attorney General aware of every federal criminal investigation
2:37
Speaker 1: that's happening at any given point? Answer no. Question What
2:42
Speaker 1: sort of cases would the Attorney General be made aware of? Answer? Well,
2:46
Speaker 1: generally things would percolate. Generally, people would report into the
2:50
Speaker 1: Deputy Attorney General every morning. I would have a staff
2:53
Speaker 1: meeting where the deputy participated and his principal staff and
2:57
Speaker 1: my own staff, and matters that had come that required
3:00
Speaker 1: my attention would come through that system. Sometimes offices would
3:05
Speaker 1: directly communicate with me, especially when there was a conflict,
3:09
Speaker 1: but matters would either come to my attention if there
3:11
Speaker 1: was a disagreement within the department or if it was
3:14
Speaker 1: a matter of national importance. Question did jur your staff
3:19
Speaker 1: closely monitor high profile cases within the United States? Answer?
3:24
Speaker 1: I think my staff monitored high profile cases and brought
3:27
Speaker 1: things to my attention that they felt I should be
3:29
Speaker 1: aware of. Question and then for pretty much the remainder
3:33
Speaker 1: of the deposition will focus on your time as Attorney
3:37
Speaker 1: General in the first Trump administration. Answer sure, question do
3:41
Speaker 1: you have any conversations about Epstein case while you are
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Speaker 1: attorney general. Answer by bar any conversations. Question Yeah, just
3:49
Speaker 1: broadly answer yes. Question do you recall when the first
3:53
Speaker 1: one was Answer? I became at some point, and this
3:57
Speaker 1: was six years ago, but I became aware that the
4:00
Speaker 1: Southern District was conducting an investigation. I think it was
4:04
Speaker 1: a little bit before his arrest, but I can't be
4:06
Speaker 1: sure that it could have been around the time of
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Speaker 1: his arrest, but I was aware that they were conducting
4:12
Speaker 1: an investigation. Now, I don't recall specific discussion surrounding that.
4:16
Speaker 1: I could tell you what my understanding of what they
4:19
Speaker 1: were investigating, but I don't remember particular conversations. It's just
4:23
Speaker 1: my impression of what came up at the time. Question.
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Speaker 1: Can you describe your general understanding of what they were investigating? Answer? So,
4:32
Speaker 1: my understanding was that they were investigating whether he committed
4:36
Speaker 1: trafficking offenses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women,
4:41
Speaker 1: and they were trying to make the case against them.
4:43
Speaker 1: And in that context, they were also looking at whether
4:46
Speaker 1: any individuals were accomplices or complicit in that activity, either
4:51
Speaker 1: as facilitators. As you know, they ultimately went after and
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Speaker 1: convicted Glenn Maxwell, and I think they were and I
4:59
Speaker 1: know they were all also looking at whether there was
5:01
Speaker 1: evidence to charge anyone with participating in trafficking by having
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Speaker 1: their involvement with the traffic victims. Question, To the best
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Speaker 1: that you can, can you describe the difference between what
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Speaker 1: participating in the trafficking would be and what facilitating that
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Speaker 1: trafficking would be? Answer? Having well, the latter, I mean,
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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, participation as would be having illicit sex with
5:25
Speaker 1: a miner a traffic miner question and facilitating answer or
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Speaker 1: anyone who was trafficking question? Yeah, answer by bar. But
5:34
Speaker 1: certainly what the focus was on was illicit sexual activity
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Speaker 1: with a miner. Question? And then what would facilitating be
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Speaker 1: of I believe miss Maxwell was? And to that bar
5:45
Speaker 1: cuts off the person asking the question. Answer helping conscript
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Speaker 1: young girls into Epstein's network of young girls who primarily
5:52
Speaker 1: were involved in giving the massages and engaged in sexual
5:56
Speaker 1: activity with them. Question. And then you say, you don't
6:00
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. Don't really recall more than
6:03
Speaker 1: the general conversations at that point in time, answer right, question,
6:07
Speaker 1: do you recall who those conversations were with or kind
6:11
Speaker 1: of surrounding the arrest of Epstein in twenty nineteen. Answer, yeah,
6:15
Speaker 1: it was either before it could have been before the arrest,
6:18
Speaker 1: but certainly by the time of the arrest I was
6:21
Speaker 1: aware of it, and it would have been It would
6:23
Speaker 1: have been the people who normally attend my meeting. It
6:26
Speaker 1: could have been a conversation with the US attorney, but
6:29
Speaker 1: I don't remember if it was. Question do you recall
6:32
Speaker 1: who normally attended those meetings? You might have said earlier,
6:35
Speaker 1: but answer it would have been the deputy and the
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Speaker 1: deputy's principal associate, as well as my chief of staff
6:42
Speaker 1: and sometimes additional members of the staff. And it would
6:45
Speaker 1: also include from time to time, you know, other people,
6:48
Speaker 1: other members of the staff who were directly concerned with
6:51
Speaker 1: the matter. Question do you recall any conversations with the
6:54
Speaker 1: FBI at that point in time, still sticking to surrounding
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Speaker 1: his arrest? Answer no, question, And then you said you
7:02
Speaker 1: might have included the US attorney. Are you referring to
7:05
Speaker 1: the US attorney for the Southern District of New York
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Speaker 1: Answer Jeff Berman. Yes. Answer do you recall any conversations
7:12
Speaker 1: with anyone in the Southern District of Florida that time? Answer?
7:15
Speaker 1: I don't recall. Question and then do you recall any
7:18
Speaker 1: conversations with mister alex Acosta at that time. Answer not
7:22
Speaker 1: not about this case. Question not about Epstein. Answer not
7:26
Speaker 1: about Epstein. Question Okay, he obviously served in the administration
7:31
Speaker 1: bar yes, question with you so in other cases Answer yes,
7:37
Speaker 1: question similar questions, different timeframe and different subject form. Miss Maxwell.
7:42
Speaker 1: Do you recall any conversations about Miss Maxwell or the
7:45
Speaker 1: Maxwell case when you were Attorney General? Answer yes, I
7:49
Speaker 1: can't pinpoint particular discussions. I think once he committed suicide,
7:53
Speaker 1: you know, the office. I remember being told and agreeing
7:56
Speaker 1: that the office had to go full boar ahead on
7:58
Speaker 1: finding other crimes that may have been committed, including looking
8:01
Speaker 1: for people who are accomplices in some way or complicit
8:04
Speaker 1: in some way. And her name came up in that
8:07
Speaker 1: context obviously as a prime person. Question and don't recall
8:12
Speaker 1: just to avoid the same list of people. But don't
8:14
Speaker 1: recall specific conversations with anybody regarding the case. Answer. I
8:18
Speaker 1: may have had some conversations with Berman where he said
8:21
Speaker 1: in the wake of the suicide that he you know
8:23
Speaker 1: that the office was very much committed to continuing the case,
8:27
Speaker 1: getting to the bottom of everything. Question I'm going to
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Speaker 1: and to that she's cut off or he's cut off
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Speaker 1: by bar Answer. I would say she disappeared and there
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Speaker 1: was this embarrassing period where they couldn't locate her, and
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Speaker 1: you know, at some point I became aware that they
8:44
Speaker 1: were prepared to indict her and that they couldn't find her.
8:47
Speaker 1: But aside from that general information, I couldn't recall anything
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Speaker 1: specific about that question. I believe they eventually found her
8:55
Speaker 1: in like a cabin in Vermont or something. Answer New
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Speaker 1: Hampshire question, New Hampshire. Do you recall how they ended
9:01
Speaker 1: up finding her? Answer? No, I don't. Question. I'm going
9:04
Speaker 1: to shift ahead in the timeline a little bit to
9:07
Speaker 1: mister Epstein's death while at MCC in Manhattan. So you
9:10
Speaker 1: previously stated that you're personally reviewed the security footage from
9:14
Speaker 1: MCC from August ninth, twenty nineteen, into the morning of
9:18
Speaker 1: August tenth. We'll put up with the department has since
9:22
Speaker 1: released just so you can review it. And I just
9:25
Speaker 1: want to ask you a first question. Does this look
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Speaker 1: like the security footage that you would have reviewed at
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Speaker 1: the time. Answer No, I can't remember specifically the security
9:34
Speaker 1: footage and what the composition of it was. I do
9:38
Speaker 1: recall that it showed the common area and a portion
9:40
Speaker 1: of the stairway up to tyrrel. I think it's tyrrel. Question. Yes,
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Speaker 1: so I'll ask some more specific questions. But this is
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Speaker 1: about eleven hours that the department released this month or
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Speaker 1: so ago. And well, we'll look at it schematically. It's
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Speaker 1: a camera pointed towards the common area of the special
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Speaker 1: housing unit at MCC. The stairway on the left goes
10:01
Speaker 1: to a different tier, and then you can see a
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Speaker 1: very little bit of stairway on the right that goes
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Speaker 1: to Tier L. Answer, uh huh, question, but you do answer.
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Speaker 1: I really can't compare it because I can't really remember question. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: answer exactly what I saw. I remember. What I remember
10:21
Speaker 1: about what I saw is that the resolution was good
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Speaker 1: enough that I could see what the guards were up to,
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Speaker 1: the corrections officers were doing. I mean, not crystal clear,
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Speaker 1: but I could tell that they were looking at computers
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Speaker 1: and working on computers and so forth. So I remember
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Speaker 1: that the resolution was pretty good, and it may have
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Speaker 1: been it could have been an enhanced or enlarge part
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Speaker 1: of this. I just don't remember. Question. And to the
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Speaker 1: best of your recollection, were there any anomalies in the
10:48
Speaker 1: tape that you reviewed any missing minutes or anything like that.
10:51
Speaker 1: Answer not that I'm aware of. I was told that
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Speaker 1: it covered the period from the time he was put
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Speaker 1: in his cell to the time he was discovered. I
11:00
Speaker 1: wasn't told of any missing minute and didn't notice any.
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Speaker 1: Question do you recall viewing other camera angles, like a
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Speaker 1: camera pointed down to your l or a camera in
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Speaker 1: the stairwell or anything. Answer? I do remember other footage
11:15
Speaker 1: looking at other footage as well, but I think some
11:18
Speaker 1: may have been in the hallways or interesces things like that. Question.
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Speaker 1: Did the Inspector General end up reviewing mister Epstein's death
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Speaker 1: investigating Answer? Yeah, question and they found that the camera
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Speaker 1: pointed directly down l block was transmitting in real time
11:34
Speaker 1: but not recording to DVR. Answer yeah. Question does that
11:37
Speaker 1: match your recollection? Answer? That matches my recollection. Let me
11:42
Speaker 1: just say that, you know, that video came to me
11:44
Speaker 1: after but a lot of information started coming to me
11:47
Speaker 1: immediately in the wake of his death, and I was
11:49
Speaker 1: getting a lot of information sort of real time and
11:52
Speaker 1: including from the Bureau, And as I found out things,
11:55
Speaker 1: you know, I started reaching my conclusions and this sort
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Speaker 1: of came later in my process. Question Okay, answer, it
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Speaker 1: wasn't the first thing I looked at. Question. Yeah, answer,
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Speaker 1: I think it took some time of working to get
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Speaker 1: whatever they were getting to me. So question, I'll try
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Speaker 1: to cover as much as I can, but we'll start
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Speaker 1: with the video redacted. I'm going to go ahead and
12:19
Speaker 1: introduce what will be Exhibit three, just because I think
12:23
Speaker 1: it'll help in the discussion. All right, folks, we're gonna
12:26
Speaker 1: wrap up right here, and in the next episode, we're
12:28
Speaker 1: gonna pick up where we left off. All of the
12:30
Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
12:33
Speaker 1: the description box. What's up, everyone, and welcome to another
12:36
Speaker 1: episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking
12:40
Speaker 1: up where we left off with Bill barr and his
12:43
Speaker 1: Epstein related deposition. So the exhibit that they show is
12:49
Speaker 1: a map of the special housing unit, the top tier
12:52
Speaker 1: of the special housing unit at MCC with the cell
12:56
Speaker 1: and it's produced by CBS Bill Barry. Yeh question, and
13:02
Speaker 1: mister Epstein's cell is the one highlighted in red. And
13:05
Speaker 1: just while we're looking at this and looking at the
13:07
Speaker 1: camera footage, the camera angle that we're looking at is
13:10
Speaker 1: a little alcove and kind of the center of the map.
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Speaker 1: Mister O'Callahan, this is you're representing that redacted about redacted. Yes,
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Speaker 1: I am, mister O'Callahan. Okay, redacted, and I can pull
13:24
Speaker 1: the CBS article, mister O'Callahan. I just want to make
13:27
Speaker 1: sure he's looking at where you're appointing redacted. So the
13:30
Speaker 1: camera positioned right there, mister O'Callahan, see look at what
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Speaker 1: redacted is doing redacted. That camera position right here and
13:40
Speaker 1: pointed towards the common area, mister o callahan, So it's
13:43
Speaker 1: up here, bar okay, I'm glad, yeah, mister O'Callahan. And
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Speaker 1: that's a cell bar right, mister callahan, okay, redacted, all right,
13:55
Speaker 1: I'm going to play thirty ish seconds just so we
13:58
Speaker 1: can get our bearings on what the movings of the
14:01
Speaker 1: jail look like at mister O'Callahan. Is Bill Barr's lawyer question.
14:06
Speaker 1: So just while this is playing, you see what appears
14:09
Speaker 1: to be corrections officers kind of walking around the common
14:12
Speaker 1: area going back to the desk. And then there are
14:15
Speaker 1: specific points I want to point out so that corrections
14:18
Speaker 1: officers came from what appears to be a blind spot
14:21
Speaker 1: on the camera towards the right, and that inmate came
14:24
Speaker 1: from what appears to be a blind spot on the
14:26
Speaker 1: camera to the right. We can pause it. I understand
14:30
Speaker 1: we reviewed fifteen seconds of the footage, but based off
14:33
Speaker 1: that review, do you agree that there is a bit
14:35
Speaker 1: of a blind spot on this camera blocked by the
14:38
Speaker 1: stair landing and that cell answer yes, redacted. I'm going
14:43
Speaker 1: to shift ahead to the nine to twenty mark, so
14:45
Speaker 1: I will preface this with this seven forty nine pm
14:48
Speaker 1: on August ninth, twenty nineteen hit play video shown redacted.
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Speaker 1: So this video shows mister Epstein escorted from escorted by
14:58
Speaker 1: corrections officers from making a phone call back to his
15:02
Speaker 1: cell in L Block. So you can see him kind
15:05
Speaker 1: of go out of the frame and go up those
15:07
Speaker 1: stairs to L Block. Mister O'Callahan again redacted, you're representing
15:12
Speaker 1: that that's Epstein walking through redacted? Yes, and O'Callahan you
15:17
Speaker 1: can't really tell redacted. So is the doj ig and
15:21
Speaker 1: the FBI the witness meaning bar I'm not going to
15:25
Speaker 1: challenge it, redacted, okay, And that was going to be
15:30
Speaker 1: my next is that your recollection of that scene as well,
15:33
Speaker 1: that around seven to forty nine PM, mister Epstein went
15:36
Speaker 1: to his cell for the evening answer, I can't actually
15:40
Speaker 1: say that's my recollection of events that I saw in
15:43
Speaker 1: the video, which is him being taken to the cell
15:45
Speaker 1: that was seven forty nine or whatever. Question and then again,
15:50
Speaker 1: understanding that we watched about ten seconds of that walk
15:54
Speaker 1: from his phone to his cell. But in addition to
15:57
Speaker 1: the blind spot of the camera kind off like to
16:01
Speaker 1: the right, it's also a bit of a blind spot
16:03
Speaker 1: on the staircase up to L Block. Would you agree
16:06
Speaker 1: answer on this video, you know, only a portion of
16:09
Speaker 1: the stairway all the way as reflected, and my recollection
16:13
Speaker 1: was a portion of the stairway was reflected on the video.
16:16
Speaker 1: Question that you reviewed as well? Answer yes, question Okay,
16:21
Speaker 1: do you recall reviewing any video that showed the staircase
16:24
Speaker 1: in its entirety? Answer no question. Do you recall reviewing
16:28
Speaker 1: any video that showed L Block in its entirety? Answer
16:32
Speaker 1: no question. So going back to the diagram and understanding
16:36
Speaker 1: kind of again, we reviewed all of thirty seconds of
16:39
Speaker 1: this footage, but I am representing that it's the thirty
16:42
Speaker 1: seconds that surround his death or surround him. Going back
16:46
Speaker 1: to his cell. The blind spot also includes this door
16:49
Speaker 1: on the kind of center of the schematic, which is
16:52
Speaker 1: an entrance into the special housing unit. And just asking,
16:55
Speaker 1: based off your experience and everything that you've reviewed, looking
16:59
Speaker 1: at this, looking at the video, the only video that's
17:02
Speaker 1: publicly available, is it possible for someone to get up
17:05
Speaker 1: to mister Epstein's cell while evading that camera? Answer? I
17:09
Speaker 1: don't believe so. Question you don't believe so? Answer no,
17:14
Speaker 1: question even though part of the staircase is blocked and
17:17
Speaker 1: the entire doorway would be blocked. Answer yes, I do
17:20
Speaker 1: not think it was physically possible for someone else to
17:23
Speaker 1: go up that stairway. Question and then the question asker
17:28
Speaker 1: is cut off by bar you, but then he's cut off.
17:33
Speaker 1: Question at the time you said you believe no one
17:35
Speaker 1: entered L Block between the time? Answer not just because
17:39
Speaker 1: of the cameras though. Question uh huh, bar yeah. Question
17:44
Speaker 1: so what other evidence did you have to support that
17:46
Speaker 1: statement that no one entered L Block between seven and
17:49
Speaker 1: fifty ish? And answer? Okay, Well, I know we're starting
17:53
Speaker 1: with the video, but for me, the video was the
17:55
Speaker 1: icing on the cake. Okay. Question okay. Answer, So there
17:59
Speaker 1: was a lot of evidence about you know, a state
18:01
Speaker 1: of mind, and other physical evidence pointing to suicide, and
18:05
Speaker 1: also testimonial in records pointing to this. But one aspect
18:09
Speaker 1: of this is that the shoe itself physically isolated from
18:13
Speaker 1: the rest of the facility and that it only has
18:15
Speaker 1: two entrance ways. The primary entrance way has to be
18:19
Speaker 1: opened remotely by central control, so no one would have
18:22
Speaker 1: the key for it, and it was my understanding that
18:25
Speaker 1: that would leave a record of it being opened, so
18:28
Speaker 1: there was no way to come in that door except
18:30
Speaker 1: going through central control having it remotely opened. And the
18:34
Speaker 1: second door the second question, I'm sorry, just the primary
18:38
Speaker 1: door is the door in the center of the schematic
18:40
Speaker 1: that appears open in the picture. Is that the primary one?
18:43
Speaker 1: Mister O'Callahan, he's saying, this one bar the one up
18:48
Speaker 1: here redacted? Yes, O'Callahan. Are you pointing to the black
18:52
Speaker 1: rectangular section. Yes, O'Callahan, he's saying, it's that question, which
18:59
Speaker 1: one is the primary end entrance into the sachu Answer? Well,
19:03
Speaker 1: I don't recognize the schematic, but from my recollection is
19:06
Speaker 1: the primary The primary exit is over on the right
19:10
Speaker 1: hand side. Question okay, answer, and if it's over here,
19:14
Speaker 1: then I would have to see the schematic. But my
19:17
Speaker 1: recollection is that you have to come up an elevator
19:19
Speaker 1: and then you get into a room where you have
19:22
Speaker 1: to get through the control door that can only be
19:24
Speaker 1: opened centrally, and then once you get through that, you
19:27
Speaker 1: come through the door that immediately enters onto the sahu
19:32
Speaker 1: and that requires a key, and my understanding was that
19:35
Speaker 1: the key to that was held by the officers inside
19:38
Speaker 1: the shoe and they would have to come and let
19:40
Speaker 1: the person in. That's my understanding. So I think that
19:44
Speaker 1: it was not physically possible in the first instance, well
19:46
Speaker 1: in my opinion, for someone to come through there. But
19:49
Speaker 1: otherwise it was also my judgment that the video corroborated
19:53
Speaker 1: that because number one, it showed the two officers who
19:56
Speaker 1: were in the shoe, the only ones in the shoe
19:59
Speaker 1: at the time, did not leave their desk, so they
20:01
Speaker 1: didn't go to let anyone in question uh huh answer.
20:06
Speaker 1: And second it was my judgment from what I saw
20:08
Speaker 1: on the camera and what I looked at, I didn't
20:10
Speaker 1: think it was possible for someone to get up to
20:12
Speaker 1: the tier and open the door without being picked up
20:15
Speaker 1: on cameras. So question opening the door would also potentially
20:19
Speaker 1: make noise. Answer, Oh, clearly, it's a big, heavy still door.
20:23
Speaker 1: Question yeah answer, yeah, question, thank you. And then you
20:28
Speaker 1: said that in the central command had to open one
20:31
Speaker 1: of the doors, and then a key answer yes, question
20:35
Speaker 1: located at the guard desk had to open another set
20:38
Speaker 1: of doors. Right. Question. Did you review the command logs? Answer? No,
20:45
Speaker 1: I didn't. Question nobody entered. Answer I didn't review them.
20:48
Speaker 1: No question, Oh, you didn't review the command logs? Are
20:52
Speaker 1: you aware of the to that the person asking the
20:55
Speaker 1: question is cut off? Answer? I didn't personally review them.
21:00
Speaker 1: I was aware that they had judged that it was
21:03
Speaker 1: not possible for someone to come in. Question are you
21:06
Speaker 1: aware if anyone reviewed whether or not an entrance or
21:09
Speaker 1: exit was logged? Answer? I believe the Bureau was looking
21:12
Speaker 1: at that intensively, the whole issue of whether this could
21:15
Speaker 1: have been anything other than a suicide. Question Are you
21:19
Speaker 1: referring to the Bureau of Prisons or the FBI? Answer?
21:22
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, the FBI question, thank you answer, and the
21:26
Speaker 1: IG question and they did an almost four year investigation
21:30
Speaker 1: into this, I think answer the IG did question yeah.
21:35
Speaker 1: Answer the Bureau was much quicker. Question. Now we're going
21:39
Speaker 1: to go back back in time based on the evidence
21:41
Speaker 1: that you reviewed, around six thirty am on August tenth.
21:46
Speaker 1: I'm not sure they're title, but the individual delivering breakfast
21:49
Speaker 1: to the inmates attempted deliver breakfast to mister Epstein. He
21:53
Speaker 1: did not answer his door. He called the guards, and
21:56
Speaker 1: they found the body and began providing medical care. Does
21:59
Speaker 1: it sound correct to you to the best of your recollection?
22:02
Speaker 1: Answer yes, question, and then about an hour later, he
22:06
Speaker 1: was pronounced dead at a hospital at New York Presbyterian.
22:09
Speaker 1: I believe in New York. Answer, I know he was
22:13
Speaker 1: pronounced dead at the hospital. Yeah. Question When were you
22:16
Speaker 1: first informed of mister Epstein's death? Answer it was Sunday morning.
22:21
Speaker 1: I was in my study at home, and I got
22:22
Speaker 1: a call from my chief of staff saying that Epstein
22:25
Speaker 1: died from an apparent suicide. Question. Do you recall about
22:29
Speaker 1: how close in time it was to the pronouncement of death. Answer?
22:34
Speaker 1: I don't recall. It was in the morning, I believe.
22:37
Speaker 1: Question and it's still your opinion today that mister Epstein
22:40
Speaker 1: died by suicide. Answer absolutely. Question, Before getting into what
22:45
Speaker 1: kind of the investigation looked like after that, what information
22:49
Speaker 1: was flowing to you? Do you know, to the best
22:52
Speaker 1: of your knowledge, what are the policies and procedures in
22:55
Speaker 1: place that were in place to ensure that mister Epstein
22:58
Speaker 1: didn't commit suicide. Answer, well, there had been, as you know,
23:02
Speaker 1: there had been an attempt at suicide in July, and
23:04
Speaker 1: based on that they put them under suicide Watch, which
23:07
Speaker 1: is the most intensive form of monitoring. And when he
23:11
Speaker 1: was taken off suicide Watch, based on the psychologists at
23:14
Speaker 1: the MCC making the determination that he could be taken
23:18
Speaker 1: off that kind of intensive watch, I found out afterward,
23:21
Speaker 1: you know, his lawyers had been pressing hard for him
23:24
Speaker 1: to be let out of suicide Watch, and in any event,
23:28
Speaker 1: he was put on the next level down, which was
23:30
Speaker 1: I forget exactly the term used for it, but required
23:34
Speaker 1: that he have a cell mate and that he was
23:35
Speaker 1: checked on every thirty minutes, in addition to you know,
23:39
Speaker 1: the other general security systems in place. Those were the
23:42
Speaker 1: two that applied directly to him that were supposed to
23:44
Speaker 1: prevent this question. And on understanding suicide watch is very intensive,
23:49
Speaker 1: requires a lot of staff power. And on suicide watch,
23:52
Speaker 1: are they provided with clothes that don't tear, the sheets
23:55
Speaker 1: that don't tear? Answer? I believe that's the case. Question
24:00
Speaker 1: when you were first provided with a more formal briefing
24:03
Speaker 1: regarding mister Epstein's death. Answer, I think it came virtually
24:07
Speaker 1: every day. I found out more information. You know, I
24:10
Speaker 1: was obviously covering it very quickly and wanted to rule
24:12
Speaker 1: out anything other than suicide, and so pertinent information was
24:16
Speaker 1: flowing to me pretty consistently. Question and it was answer.
24:22
Speaker 1: The FBI conducting an investigation, and the Southern District was
24:25
Speaker 1: involved in that. I within an hour or minutes of
24:30
Speaker 1: finding out about it, I directed the IG to have
24:33
Speaker 1: people in New York go to the scene and conduct
24:35
Speaker 1: an investigation. Start an investigation. Question and you've already said that,
24:40
Speaker 1: you know, you reviewed security camera footage. Obviously there was
24:43
Speaker 1: a previous suicide attempt that probably had psychologist notes and
24:47
Speaker 1: things that were available to the FBI and BOP to
24:50
Speaker 1: review and the IG to review. Were there any other
24:53
Speaker 1: things that you reviewed specifically? Answer? I would review photographs
24:58
Speaker 1: when people were discussing that were pertinent. I may have seen.
25:02
Speaker 1: I think I may have been shown logs that were apparently,
25:04
Speaker 1: you know, erroneously filled out by the corrections officers, things
25:08
Speaker 1: like that the systems were explained to me. From time
25:10
Speaker 1: to time, the BOP was also conducting their own investigation,
25:15
Speaker 1: so there was sort of three investigations going on at once.
25:18
Speaker 1: Question and it was kind of the culmination of all
25:21
Speaker 1: this information that was provided to you that led you
25:24
Speaker 1: to the judgment that it was suicide. Answer? Yes, well,
25:28
Speaker 1: over time it became clearer and clearer to me that
25:31
Speaker 1: it was undoubtedly suicide. As I say, the video was
25:35
Speaker 1: probably the last thing I looked at or you know,
25:37
Speaker 1: in reaching that conclusion. Question do you recall reviewing any
25:41
Speaker 1: specific documents during that time period, like the coroner's report? Answer?
25:46
Speaker 1: I did review the coroner's report. Question I asked this,
25:50
Speaker 1: but did you review like entry and exit logs from
25:53
Speaker 1: the SHU Answer? I may have. I saw some records.
25:57
Speaker 1: I can't remember what they are. To wrap up right here,
26:01
Speaker 1: and in the next episode, we're going to pick up
26:03
Speaker 1: where we left off. All of the information that goes
26:05
Speaker 1: with this episode can be found in the description box.
26:09
Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
26:11
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up
26:14
Speaker 1: where we left off with Bill Barr and his deposition
26:18
Speaker 1: before Congress. Question do you recall reviewing any specific documents
26:25
Speaker 1: during that time period, like the coroner's report. Answer. I
26:28
Speaker 1: did review the coroner's report. Question did you? I asked this,
26:33
Speaker 1: but did you review like entry and exit logs for
26:36
Speaker 1: the shoe Answer? I may have. I saw some records.
26:39
Speaker 1: I can't remember what they were. Question Okay. The chief
26:42
Speaker 1: medical examiner at the time stated after examination that Epstein
26:47
Speaker 1: died by I believe it was described as kneeling hanging,
26:50
Speaker 1: so not jumping off the top punk, but using leverage
26:53
Speaker 1: to kind of lean forward. Does that fit your recollection, Barr?
26:58
Speaker 1: I remember discussing of a kneeling hanging, but I can't
27:01
Speaker 1: remember what posture he was in at the end question
27:04
Speaker 1: and answer. They found him with his buttocks facing the
27:08
Speaker 1: question ground answer ground, So I'm not sure if he
27:12
Speaker 1: was on his knees at that point. Question but you
27:14
Speaker 1: hadn't do your recall seeing any evidence that he jumped
27:17
Speaker 1: off the bunk or otherwise fell. Answer. I think question
27:23
Speaker 1: versus just kind of and bar cuts her off. No.
27:26
Speaker 1: I think the evidence was that he hung himself, and
27:28
Speaker 1: it was essentially close to the modus operandi that he
27:31
Speaker 1: had used before being put on watch. You know the
27:34
Speaker 1: same nowses and coming off the top and landing. In
27:38
Speaker 1: that case, he landed on his knees. Apparently it didn't work.
27:41
Speaker 1: I just have to interject here, which I hate to
27:43
Speaker 1: do when we're doing these kinds of episodes, but man,
27:47
Speaker 1: the whole entire narrative around the first supposed suicide is
27:50
Speaker 1: bunk absolute bs. Question were you being kept apprized of
27:56
Speaker 1: the autopsy and its results in sort of real time? Answer? No.
28:00
Speaker 1: Question do you recall when bar that was conducted by
28:04
Speaker 1: New York? Question? Do you recall when you first got
28:07
Speaker 1: briefed on the autopsy? Answer? Well, I heard about it
28:10
Speaker 1: pretty soon after it came out. Question and at that
28:14
Speaker 1: point it kind of confirmed to you that the medical
28:17
Speaker 1: examiner ruled it a suicide. Answer by bar Yes, and
28:20
Speaker 1: the fact that there were I mean, I think not
28:23
Speaker 1: only that ruling, but the fact that there was no
28:25
Speaker 1: sign of a struggle. I mean, he was a fairly
28:27
Speaker 1: large guy, and the idea that people would go in
28:30
Speaker 1: there and hang them in that way, with numerous newses
28:32
Speaker 1: being tied and so forth, without any sign of scuffle
28:35
Speaker 1: was not plausible. Question. Yeah, I think I remember. I
28:40
Speaker 1: don't remember which investigation it was in, but I remember
28:43
Speaker 1: reading like, no, you know skin or fibers under his fingernails?
28:47
Speaker 1: Answer there was none. Question no like scratch marks anything?
28:51
Speaker 1: Answer no contusions, any kind of defensive marks? Answer none.
28:57
Speaker 1: Question is that similar to your bar yes question recollection
29:02
Speaker 1: bar yes? Question I believe mister Epstein's brother hired a
29:07
Speaker 1: medical witness to review the autopsy. Answer right. Question the
29:12
Speaker 1: examiner report named doctor Michael Boden. Answer yes, I see
29:16
Speaker 1: him occasionally on TV. I've seen him. He frequently comes
29:19
Speaker 1: into these kinds of situations. Question. I believe he was
29:23
Speaker 1: described as an expert medical witness in high profile cases.
29:26
Speaker 1: So answer uh huh. Question take with that what you
29:30
Speaker 1: will answer? Yes, question, but do you recall doctor Boden
29:33
Speaker 1: being involved at the time? Answer I remember just reading
29:36
Speaker 1: news coverage. Well, he came in after I believe, after
29:39
Speaker 1: the autopsy reached his conclusions and he offered another view
29:43
Speaker 1: of it. And I remember press reports to that effect.
29:46
Speaker 1: Question his view which is contrary to the medical examiners,
29:50
Speaker 1: And again I will say that he is an expert
29:52
Speaker 1: medical witness, not a medical examiner. Yes he is. Yes,
29:56
Speaker 1: he is. In fact, Michael Boden has more experience than
29:59
Speaker 1: any anybody that they had on their team at the time,
30:02
Speaker 1: So do with that what you will. He's a medical witness,
30:07
Speaker 1: not a medical examiner. But that Epstein had fractures to
30:10
Speaker 1: his larnix, and I believe it was three fact fractures,
30:13
Speaker 1: three different fractures to his hyoid bone in his neck,
30:16
Speaker 1: and that was described as extremely unusual in suicidal hangings
30:20
Speaker 1: and more consistent with homicidal strangulation. Do you recall any
30:24
Speaker 1: conversations about mister Boden's report within the department or with
30:28
Speaker 1: the FBI? Answer by Barr, I remember conversations about it,
30:33
Speaker 1: commenting on it. Question did anyone agree with mister Boden's finding?
30:37
Speaker 1: Answer Bar No, I mean no one expressed agreement during
30:40
Speaker 1: any of my conversations. Question no one expressed disagreement to you.
30:45
Speaker 1: Did you understanding the evidence and what it was and
30:48
Speaker 1: information was flowing really quickly, did you ever see any
30:51
Speaker 1: evidence it suggested mister Epstein's death was a homicide? Answer No.
30:56
Speaker 1: On the contrary, I think when you look at the
30:59
Speaker 1: cumulation of the evidence, including the testimony of individuals, his
31:03
Speaker 1: state of mind, you know, the whole thing, the process.
31:06
Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that impressed me was
31:09
Speaker 1: that it would have required, It would have required people.
31:12
Speaker 1: It wasn't known until eight o'clock that morning, I believe
31:14
Speaker 1: that his cellmate was gone, and it wasn't even clearer
31:17
Speaker 1: during the day whether he'd get a replacement, So there
31:20
Speaker 1: wasn't much time for people to understand that he was
31:23
Speaker 1: going to be by himself, very very little time, and
31:26
Speaker 1: this would have required coordination from probably two dozen people
31:30
Speaker 1: maybe within the prison. Okay, full stop. Why was Nicholas
31:34
Speaker 1: Tartaglioni in the cell with Jeffrey Epstein the first time around,
31:37
Speaker 1: after Nicholas Tartaglioni was already found with contraband in his
31:41
Speaker 1: cell while he was facing four homicides. Furthermore, we have
31:46
Speaker 1: no idea who was in that gel cell or in
31:48
Speaker 1: those cells that were next to Jeffrey Epstein in the shoe.
31:51
Speaker 1: Nobody's ever come out and said anything, so could somebody
31:54
Speaker 1: have been planted in there previously to do this? We
31:57
Speaker 1: got a whole ass rabbit hole still to jump down.
32:00
Speaker 1: But it's always surface level shit with these people, right,
32:02
Speaker 1: They never want to get to the actual story. And
32:08
Speaker 1: all these people were in different groups, you know, the
32:10
Speaker 1: people who were repairing the cameras, the people who you
32:13
Speaker 1: know were responsible for opening and closing the door, the
32:16
Speaker 1: people who are responsible for putting in a new cell,
32:18
Speaker 1: made things like that. For all that to be coordinated,
32:22
Speaker 1: it would have required I think, as I say, maybe
32:24
Speaker 1: two dozen people. Question uh huh so kind of and
32:27
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't mean to be testifying, but like
32:30
Speaker 1: in summary, kind of between a state of mind, previous
32:33
Speaker 1: suicide attempt, and the process in place, in addition to
32:36
Speaker 1: the coordination it would take to override those processes all
32:40
Speaker 1: pointed towards the suicide answer by Bar absolutely, even before
32:45
Speaker 1: you go to the physical possibility of getting into the
32:48
Speaker 1: shoe and getting up in his cell. Question all right, Bar?
32:53
Speaker 1: And the fact that there are eyewitnesses on that very
32:55
Speaker 1: tier of other prisoners, including two right across the way,
32:58
Speaker 1: who saw no one go in that night. Okay, so
33:01
Speaker 1: let's hear from them, bring them in front of Congress.
33:04
Speaker 1: We're just gonna take Bill Barr's word for it. You see,
33:06
Speaker 1: here's my big problem, folks. I don't trust any of
33:09
Speaker 1: these people. So them telling me something is not gonna
33:13
Speaker 1: cut it. Let's see the evidence. Question and they said
33:17
Speaker 1: they never heard the door open. Answer, right, question and
33:20
Speaker 1: things like that. To your knowledge, did the FBI ever
33:23
Speaker 1: investigate Epstein's death as a homicide? Answer? To my knowledge,
33:27
Speaker 1: no question. Do you know if anyone investigated? Answer? I
33:31
Speaker 1: think they investigated to determine whether it was a homicide,
33:34
Speaker 1: but I don't think they ever got to the point
33:37
Speaker 1: of feeling that this was a homicide. Question they never
33:41
Speaker 1: the evidence bar cuts her off. I mean it was
33:44
Speaker 1: a homicide or I mean a suicide? Question? Yeah, answer, yeah, question,
33:49
Speaker 1: the kind of evidence never swung to more probable answer,
33:53
Speaker 1: no question. Do you recall anyone investigating it as a
33:57
Speaker 1: homicide that you were aware of? Answer No, I don't
34:01
Speaker 1: think anyone got to the point of feeling that it
34:03
Speaker 1: was a murder. Well, that's a problem right there, because
34:06
Speaker 1: any death that happens inside of a jail is considered
34:09
Speaker 1: a homicide until an investigation cracks off. They don't know
34:12
Speaker 1: what happened, so they can't rule it out as a homicide,
34:14
Speaker 1: So it's a homicide investigation, right. Question. Going back to
34:20
Speaker 1: doctor Boden, just very briefly, I know that you said
34:22
Speaker 1: you recalled generally, you recalled conversations regarding his contrary findings.
34:27
Speaker 1: Do you recall having any conversations about mister Epstein's broken
34:30
Speaker 1: learnix and hyoid bones outside of doctor Boden's findings. Answer.
34:35
Speaker 1: I think I heard it discussed within the department. Question
34:39
Speaker 1: and to the best of your recollection, the discussions or
34:41
Speaker 1: that it was still consistent with suicidal hanging. Answer right
34:46
Speaker 1: that they said they believe the medical examiner was correct.
34:49
Speaker 1: Question and then you already said this, but I want
34:51
Speaker 1: to ask it explicitly. You instructed the IG to open
34:55
Speaker 1: the investigation? Answer? Yes, answer, as soon as I got
34:59
Speaker 1: off the phone with my chief of staff, I believe
35:01
Speaker 1: he contacted I asked him to contact the IG immediately.
35:04
Speaker 1: I know that they're very familiar with Bureau of Prisons
35:07
Speaker 1: and its processes, and I was told that he had
35:10
Speaker 1: people up in New York who could get to the
35:12
Speaker 1: prison right away. Question and then we've talked about mister
35:16
Speaker 1: Epstein's state of mind an awful lot. And you said
35:18
Speaker 1: that you or someone reviewed kind of the psychologist notes
35:21
Speaker 1: from the previous suicide attempt, the reports that are associated
35:25
Speaker 1: with taking an individual off suicide watch. Do you recall
35:29
Speaker 1: any other evidence regarding what you were reviewed regarding his
35:32
Speaker 1: state of mind? Mister Epstein's state of mind. Answer, Well,
35:35
Speaker 1: you know I was aware of that. You know, he
35:37
Speaker 1: had tried suicide, which I viewed as an attempt at suicide.
35:40
Speaker 1: He had done his last will and testament right before.
35:43
Speaker 1: Question when did you become aware of that one? Answer?
35:46
Speaker 1: Sometime during the period where I was absorbing information. I
35:50
Speaker 1: can't pinpoint it, but there was a period of time
35:52
Speaker 1: where things were being learned and I was finding out
35:55
Speaker 1: about them if they were pertinent, and he his efforts
35:59
Speaker 1: to get bail had failed, So he was looking at
36:01
Speaker 1: a period of time of incarceration in that place, which
36:04
Speaker 1: I think for him was very difficult. Just to point
36:08
Speaker 1: out Epstein's lawyers tell us something completely different. And I
36:12
Speaker 1: do remember the buzz that was caused that Friday, I
36:14
Speaker 1: believe by the release of documents by the court that
36:17
Speaker 1: had a lot of salacious material in there about prominent
36:20
Speaker 1: individuals and so forth, and that caused quite a stir.
36:23
Speaker 1: And so I think that my judgment was that this
36:26
Speaker 1: sort of set the stage for and was and he
36:29
Speaker 1: made the call to his girlfriend. Apparently I found out
36:32
Speaker 1: early that he that procedures were not followed and that
36:36
Speaker 1: he was allowed to make an unmonitored call to a
36:38
Speaker 1: woman who I believe in Belarussia, and who was his
36:43
Speaker 1: I understood to be or believed to be his girlfriend
36:45
Speaker 1: at the time, and he made a call to her
36:47
Speaker 1: at that point. So it seemed important for him to
36:50
Speaker 1: make a call to her that evening. So let's bring
36:52
Speaker 1: her in and let's talk to her, let's talk to
36:55
Speaker 1: doctor Boden. But no, they won't do it, will they.
36:59
Speaker 1: And so put these together. I think it was consistent
37:02
Speaker 1: with suicide question. And then during answer he cuts her
37:06
Speaker 1: off just as to just as to a state of mind.
37:09
Speaker 1: All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here, and
37:11
Speaker 1: in the next episode, we're gonna pick up where we
37:13
Speaker 1: left off. All of the information that goes with this
37:16
Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
37:20
Speaker 1: and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In
37:23
Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to pick up where he left
37:25
Speaker 1: off with Bill Barr and his deposition before Congress. Question.
37:32
Speaker 1: During his speech shortly thereafter at the Fraternal Order of
37:35
Speaker 1: Police conference on August twelfth, you said that you learned
37:38
Speaker 1: of serious irregularities that were deeply concerning at mcc answer.
37:43
Speaker 1: Uh huh question, do you recall what the irregularities were answer, Well, one,
37:49
Speaker 1: you know, I was wondering who the person was who
37:51
Speaker 1: made the decision to take him off suicide watch. He
37:54
Speaker 1: had already attempted suicide, and for all the reasons, I
37:57
Speaker 1: just stated it was someone that had to be watched,
38:00
Speaker 1: and he was high, very high profile, and he would
38:02
Speaker 1: be under pressure to identify co conspirators. So I think
38:06
Speaker 1: that was one. The fact that the checks, the thirty
38:09
Speaker 1: minute checks, were not performed, and I would say that
38:12
Speaker 1: there was nothing apparently unusual about that. This wasn't like
38:15
Speaker 1: people getting together and saying, Okay, tonight, we're not going
38:19
Speaker 1: to perform the watches. Apparently it was pretty consistent that
38:22
Speaker 1: they failed to perform the checks. And thirdly, they didn't
38:25
Speaker 1: place and very importantly that they didn't place another prisoner
38:29
Speaker 1: in his cell. So I was referring to those and
38:31
Speaker 1: you know, all these and the camera not being on that.
38:35
Speaker 1: You know, that's obviously not necessarily directly relevant to it,
38:38
Speaker 1: but you know, the same way the others are. But
38:41
Speaker 1: it's still these screw ups happening at the same time. Question,
38:45
Speaker 1: and that was going to be my next question. You
38:47
Speaker 1: also described it as a perfect storm of screw ups. Answer, Uh,
38:50
Speaker 1: huh question. I think the exact quote that you're referencing
38:54
Speaker 1: the same things, the checks not being done, the guards
38:57
Speaker 1: allegedly falsifying the record regarding answer uh huh question, the checks,
39:03
Speaker 1: the camera's not working. Also the corrections officers also didn't
39:07
Speaker 1: perform the institutional counts that night. Answer right question, those
39:11
Speaker 1: kinds of things, the perfect storm of screw ups. Is
39:14
Speaker 1: that what you were referring to, answer right, And that
39:18
Speaker 1: became clearer and clearer as things went by. But I
39:20
Speaker 1: started off with a state of mind on this thing,
39:23
Speaker 1: like you know, this is going to take some explaining,
39:25
Speaker 1: so you know, and I can see why people would
39:28
Speaker 1: be suspicious more than suspicious. Question where the IG report
39:33
Speaker 1: came out after your time as Attorney General in June
39:36
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, bar yes, question, were you getting
39:40
Speaker 1: updates from the IG or just the FBI? Answer? I
39:43
Speaker 1: think my best recollection is that initially I did get
39:46
Speaker 1: some updates, you know, sort of orienting me to some
39:50
Speaker 1: of the big facts and factors. But you know that
39:53
Speaker 1: sort of dribbled away, and certainly after I left the department,
39:56
Speaker 1: I wasn't getting anything. But I don't, I can't. Initially
40:00
Speaker 1: I got some information and that gradually ended. Question. So
40:04
Speaker 1: the kind of steady stream, as much as it can
40:06
Speaker 1: be described that way, was more from internal to the
40:10
Speaker 1: department FBI BOP investigations that you were getting information from
40:15
Speaker 1: bar Yeah, through staff, sometimes through BOP people, through my
40:19
Speaker 1: own staff who they would talk to, sometimes directly. David Bowditch,
40:23
Speaker 1: who was the deputy FBI director and I had a
40:27
Speaker 1: good relationship and we talked frequently, and even as time
40:30
Speaker 1: went by during the rest of my tenure, when something
40:33
Speaker 1: some you know, clickbait type article appeared about something in
40:36
Speaker 1: the Epstein case, I would sometimes call him and say,
40:39
Speaker 1: did you guys look at that? And you know, so
40:41
Speaker 1: I was continuing to pick up information. Question you just
40:45
Speaker 1: mentioned David Bowditch, Deputy director of the FBI at the time,
40:49
Speaker 1: it was reported that you instructed them to keep the
40:51
Speaker 1: Deputy ag mister Rosen informed every three hours. Does that
40:55
Speaker 1: sound accurate? Answer? Maybe on the first or second day. Yeah,
41:00
Speaker 1: it definitely bar cuts her off. I mean initially did
41:04
Speaker 1: I say every three hours? Question? That was what was reported,
41:08
Speaker 1: but you know that that's what's reported. Answer, but wasn't
41:11
Speaker 1: in my book? Question? No answer, Okay, I told him
41:15
Speaker 1: to keep the deputy's office advised, you know, I think
41:18
Speaker 1: probably every day. I doubt I said every three hours.
41:21
Speaker 1: But if I did say it, that may have been
41:23
Speaker 1: just for the first few days. Like we need to
41:26
Speaker 1: know in real time because all these allegations and the
41:29
Speaker 1: internet was going crazy. Question. Yeah, we just discussed some
41:33
Speaker 1: of the I'll describe them as kind of security failures
41:36
Speaker 1: at the time more maybe caused by low staffing, low budget,
41:41
Speaker 1: whatever the cause was, there were a number of failures
41:44
Speaker 1: that occurred between August ninth and August tenth. We've discussed
41:47
Speaker 1: that mister Epstein attempted suicide on July twenty third, twenty nineteen,
41:52
Speaker 1: And you said you were you Did you become aware
41:55
Speaker 1: of that after his death or was it prior? Answer?
41:58
Speaker 1: Become aware of what? Question his attempted suicide in July. Answer,
42:03
Speaker 1: that's a good question. You know, at some point I
42:06
Speaker 1: obviously became aware of it. It's possible it happened before
42:10
Speaker 1: his suicide, that he was taken off. You're saying question
42:13
Speaker 1: or that he answer, no, I heard about his suicide
42:17
Speaker 1: question No that in July answer, I mean suicide attempt.
42:21
Speaker 1: Question you heard about the suicide attempt? Barr, Yes, question
42:25
Speaker 1: prior to his eventual death. Answer, yes, and I knew
42:29
Speaker 1: he was put on I knew he was put on
42:31
Speaker 1: suicide watch. Question I mean to that she's cut off
42:35
Speaker 1: by bar But I don't remember being told that he
42:38
Speaker 1: was off the watch. I could have been told before
42:40
Speaker 1: his suicide. My best recollection is that after his suicide,
42:44
Speaker 1: I was certainly told about the kerfuffle over whether or
42:47
Speaker 1: not he should be taken off watch. Question and that
42:50
Speaker 1: kind of information flowing up to the Attorney General's office.
42:53
Speaker 1: Was it primarily because mister Apstein was a very high
42:56
Speaker 1: profile inmate? Answer that he attempted suicide? Question? Uh huh
43:01
Speaker 1: answer yes, answer well, yes, question the Attorney General wouldn't
43:07
Speaker 1: be notified every time an inmate in BOP custody attempt suicide.
43:11
Speaker 1: Answer not for an attempt. Question. We discussed him being
43:15
Speaker 1: put on suicide watch and kind of what that entailed.
43:18
Speaker 1: And you just mentioned where I was going next. That
43:22
Speaker 1: he was removed from watch after twenty four hours, which
43:25
Speaker 1: I believe is the minimum amount of time that you're
43:27
Speaker 1: allowed to be on suicide watch. Answer. I can't remember
43:31
Speaker 1: exactly how long he was on watch. I was under
43:34
Speaker 1: the impression it was multiple days, But I don't know. Question,
43:39
Speaker 1: I'll represent this and I can bring it into the record.
43:42
Speaker 1: But he was on official suicide watch for twenty four
43:45
Speaker 1: hours and then stayed in that cell for about a week,
43:47
Speaker 1: but was no longer on constant monitoring, and then he
43:51
Speaker 1: was moved back to the shoe. Answer, I just can't
43:54
Speaker 1: remember those details. Question Okay, bar I know he was
43:57
Speaker 1: on suicide watch and then he was released from suicide watch.
44:01
Speaker 1: Question and you mentioned and I'll get your thought a
44:05
Speaker 1: kind of kerfuffle around. Barber interrupts her. Yeah, question whether
44:11
Speaker 1: or not to be removed from suicide watch. Can you
44:13
Speaker 1: get into more detail about that? Answer? Well, what happened
44:16
Speaker 1: and people were filling me in on it on this
44:19
Speaker 1: because it did not cast either a BOP or the
44:22
Speaker 1: department in a good light that he was, that someone
44:25
Speaker 1: like this would attempt suicide and then not be put
44:27
Speaker 1: on suicide watch. So I was regaled about that. You
44:32
Speaker 1: know the arguments and the process. Question okay, and your
44:35
Speaker 1: a call. Do your recall people advocating for a longer
44:38
Speaker 1: suicide watch for him? Answer? I don't recall the details.
44:42
Speaker 1: No question and then answer, you know, I mean main
44:47
Speaker 1: justice would not have been involved in that because you know,
44:50
Speaker 1: this was a pre trial. MCC is pre trial, and
44:53
Speaker 1: you know, generally the way a pre trial suspect is
44:55
Speaker 1: handled is monitored by the US Attorney's Office because they're
44:59
Speaker 1: the ones have to report to the judge when the
45:01
Speaker 1: judge is asking questions about you know, and so I
45:04
Speaker 1: normally wouldn't have been brought into that something of this profile.
45:08
Speaker 1: I wish I had been. Question and then the IG
45:13
Speaker 1: kind of went into detail about going on and taken
45:16
Speaker 1: off suicide Watch. Do you remember any internal investigation after
45:19
Speaker 1: his death, whether about the decision to take him off
45:23
Speaker 1: suicide Watch? Answer? Just the IGS and yeah, just the IGS.
45:27
Speaker 1: I don't know about the bureau. I can't remember. Question
45:31
Speaker 1: and FBI as a bureau in that case. Answer yes, question, Okay,
45:35
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's lots of bureaus. Answer there's the only bureau. Question.
45:42
Speaker 1: And again, all of this is the best of your recollection,
45:45
Speaker 1: So if you don't recall the specifics, that's totally okay.
45:48
Speaker 1: After he was put back in the special housing unit,
45:50
Speaker 1: according to his roommate who was interviewed by the IG,
45:53
Speaker 1: he was provided with extra betting in sheets, a perk
45:56
Speaker 1: that not very many inmates got Do you recall conversations
45:59
Speaker 1: about that? Answer? I don't remember that question? Okay. Shifting
46:04
Speaker 1: to the security cameras, which we talked about a little bit,
46:07
Speaker 1: but I want to talk about the circumstances surrounding the
46:10
Speaker 1: cameras a little bit more. There were eleven or so
46:14
Speaker 1: in or around the shoe entrance and exits hallways, and
46:17
Speaker 1: we always discussed the one pointing straight down L Block,
46:21
Speaker 1: and then we watched the footage from the one pointing
46:24
Speaker 1: into the common area. There was a DVR failure that
46:28
Speaker 1: resulted in these cameras working in real time but not recording.
46:31
Speaker 1: Does that do you recall that answer? It was my
46:34
Speaker 1: understanding that a number of the cameras were not recording,
46:36
Speaker 1: although they were still streaming live. Question and the DVR
46:40
Speaker 1: failure was for a while, had been going on for
46:43
Speaker 1: a while, but was discovered on August eighth. Does that
46:46
Speaker 1: sound answer? I didn't know that at the time, but
46:49
Speaker 1: subsequently found out question and then kind of the process
46:53
Speaker 1: of getting it back on answer getting it fixed, bar
46:56
Speaker 1: says question getting it fixed took longer than expected. Answer? Yes,
47:01
Speaker 1: question is that right? Answer? Yes, I was not aware
47:04
Speaker 1: of this and that it was going on. I was
47:06
Speaker 1: aware shortly after the suicide that the cameras had apparently failed,
47:10
Speaker 1: and there was an effort that went on for I
47:12
Speaker 1: would say more than one day, you know, of the
47:15
Speaker 1: Bureau going into with technical experts to try to still
47:18
Speaker 1: capture something and go over the disc and stuff like that.
47:22
Speaker 1: Question do you recall the explanation given for the failure
47:25
Speaker 1: of the cameras. Answer no, I can't remember the details
47:28
Speaker 1: of it, but I did monitor the technical people who
47:31
Speaker 1: were working hard on trying to get it, and then
47:33
Speaker 1: you know, I saw whatever that they had. Question do
47:37
Speaker 1: you recall seeing any evidence of tampering with the DVR system?
47:41
Speaker 1: Answer the Bureau I don't think believed it was tampered.
47:45
Speaker 1: They felt it was there was a non malicious explanation
47:49
Speaker 1: for it. Question and kind of generally in your discussion
47:52
Speaker 1: with the FBI and others investigating this, did the lack
47:56
Speaker 1: of camera recordings have any negative impact on the investigation? Answer?
48:01
Speaker 1: You know, I mean it made the investigation harder obviously. Yeah.
48:05
Speaker 1: Question I mean if the camera down l block had
48:08
Speaker 1: been working, it would have been an easier investigation. Answer yeah,
48:11
Speaker 1: now it was working, and that's question. Yes, if it
48:14
Speaker 1: had been a recording. Answer, it wasn't. In I'm not sure,
48:19
Speaker 1: but in my belief is that it was not general
48:22
Speaker 1: knowledge that they were not recording, and people would have
48:25
Speaker 1: thought that they were working. Mister O'Callahan. So when you
48:28
Speaker 1: spoke about the camera failures in answering redacted's questions, the
48:32
Speaker 1: failures were the recording bar. That's then he's cut off.
48:37
Speaker 1: Question Yes, and I apologize. I'm trying to be very specific,
48:41
Speaker 1: and that it was not recording to the DVR. They
48:44
Speaker 1: were projecting on the security monitors in real time, just
48:47
Speaker 1: not saving to the DVR. You talk about another one
48:50
Speaker 1: of these series of mistakes is the lack of a
48:52
Speaker 1: roommate that after suicide Watch, the psych department said that
48:56
Speaker 1: he needed to have a roommate at all times. Do
48:58
Speaker 1: you recall conversation in that aftermath about why there wasn't
49:02
Speaker 1: a roommate assigned to his cell? Answer? Yes, question what
49:06
Speaker 1: were those conversations? Answer? I can't remember the details, but
49:10
Speaker 1: I actually spent a lot of time on this issue
49:13
Speaker 1: and had people walk me through. You know, why it
49:15
Speaker 1: was being released, what's the process. Why did he have
49:18
Speaker 1: to be released? Then? Who was in charge of that?
49:20
Speaker 1: Why did he get released and went through all that
49:23
Speaker 1: stuff and I went through it in detail. Question and
49:26
Speaker 1: didn't find to your knowledge, didn't find anything malicious in
49:29
Speaker 1: the timing of this release. Answer? No, question. And you
49:33
Speaker 1: didn't find anything malicious in that the mcc had not
49:37
Speaker 1: assigned Epstein a new roommate. Answer. I think that was
49:40
Speaker 1: the judgment of the FBI after a period of time,
49:43
Speaker 1: and then that ultimately was the judgment of the IG
49:45
Speaker 1: as well. That's my recollection question. Do you recall what
49:50
Speaker 1: kind of indications were brought to you that it was
49:53
Speaker 1: just a mistake to not assign them a roommate. Answer.
49:57
Speaker 1: I can't remember the details of it. The who John,
50:00
Speaker 1: but there were a lot of people involved who you know,
50:03
Speaker 1: I told him this, No, he didn't tell me this.
50:06
Speaker 1: You know, whether this watch officer knew something or whether
50:10
Speaker 1: they didn't know something, and it was sort of it
50:12
Speaker 1: was intricate, that's all I can remember. Question. Yeah, answer,
50:16
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day it appeared to
50:18
Speaker 1: be screw ups. All right, we're gonna wrap up right
50:21
Speaker 1: here and in the next episode dealing with the topic,
50:23
Speaker 1: We're gonna pick up where we left off. All of
50:25
Speaker 1: the information that goes with This episode can be found
50:28
Speaker 1: in the description box.