Latest / The Thriving School Podcast with Jenni Awesome / IEP Confidence: Know Your Rights with Frances Shefter

Transcript

IEP Confidence: Know Your Rights with Frances Shefter · The Thriving School Podcast with Jenni Awesome

• Jenni Awesome: And welcome back to the Jennifer Awesome podcast, where we explore the ideas, people, and experiences helping students graduate with competence, confidence, and purpose, not just a diploma. Every child deserves to be seen, supported, and given the opportunity to reach their full potential. But for many families, navigating special education, that journey can be overwhelming, filled with unfamiliar terminology. Legal processes and difficult decisions. I am super honored that today's guest has dedicated her career to helping families navigate those challenges with confidence and clarity. I'm excited to welcome Frances Schefter, founder of Schefter Law, education attorney, IEP expert, former teacher, and the mother of two neurodivergent children. Frances combines her classroom experience, legal expertise, and personal perspective to advocate for students with disabilities and empower families to understand their rights. Through her work, she helps ensure children receive the services and educational opportunities they deserve while guiding parents through the complexities of special education law with compassion and practical expertise. Francis, welcome to the Jennifer Awesome podcast. I am so excited that you are here today. Frances Shefter: Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. Jenni Awesome: So tell me a bit about how did you even get into educational law? Frances Shefter: so it's a funny story actually. I was in education when I was younger. I was always interested in law, but I didn't think I was smart enough to go to law school. so I went to educ I went into education because I always loved children. So I did my undergrad in early childhood. I did my masters in special education. I was seven years in the classroom and then two years as special aid coordinator. And my second year as special aid coordinator, i you know, it was I was they wanted me to take the next position in district, but I was like, you know, I just don't feel like it's being about the kids anymore. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: And so I decided I was like, you know, let me just take the L set. I was just interested, you know, I was always interested in law. Let me just see what happens. And basically one thing led to the other. And I got an acceptance letter that I was going to law school and I was like, I'm going to wait a minute, I'm going to law school. Like Jenni Awesome: Okay. Frances Shefter: it was just like one of those like it. It was never I'm gonna go to law school, let me do the steps. It was let me see what happens, and then like, whoa, wait, I'm going to law school. Jenni Awesome: my gosh. Frances Shefter: Yeah. So it was kind of cool. And then obviously getting into education law made the most sense because you know, who better to pick apart an IEP than somebody that wrote them for a dozen years? Jenni Awesome: You know, that should be a prerequisite. I if you're gonna be in education law, you should be in the classroom, you should be writing the IEPs, have those experiences. Like that's huge. Frances Shefter: Yeah, I agree. I mean, i I know a lot of great education attorneys, not most of them have not had teaching experience. They've learned along the way. They've, you know, had experience as parents potentially or other things. and it's great to know the law, but I feel like I have a different edge that I bring to the to IEP meetings because I speak their language, you know? Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: And I can look at them and be like I used to do this when I was a teacher. I don't think what I'm asking you to do is too hard. And it kinda put it softens things a little because it's not who's this attorney coming telling me how to run a classroom. It's like, wait a minute. She did it for nine years. She knows what she's talking about. Jenni Awesome: So what was that first one like when you first stepped in as the attorney to support in the attorney position instead of being a teacher? What was that like? Frances Shefter: Wow, my first I'm sure I don't remember which my first one was. I think I remember. it's been so long Jenni Awesome: What? Frances Shefter: ago. I mean, it's it's like I remember being, you know, obviously being nervous as my first time as an attorney in this, you know, representation, but it was also like it was eye-opening for me taking that step back and just thinking along the lines of like, wow, did I really sound like that to parents? You know. And like I was like, ooh, oops. was a lot of what was going through my head. But then it was also like, well, wait a minute. I understand what you're saying there, but the law says this. And so where's the data to support that? Or like in one situation, I heard, you know, the schools going, Well, we don't really do assessments for that. And and you know, that's that's not really how we do things. I went, okay. So then I want an independent educational evaluation for that. And all of a sudden the other attorney's like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. We can do that assessment because the other attorney heard dollar signs. But Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: you know, but it was like me, like I remember saying, well, we don't do that, and parents saying, Okay. But now as an attorney, no, that's not okay. If it's needed for the child, they need to do it to an extent. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, they do. so what is it that you do as an educational attorney? I know that you support IEPs. What what do you do? Frances Shefter: So i one of the things I do, I have a definitely a different model in how I run my law firm is because one of the things I offer is called a strategy session. and Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: that's what most law firms will call a consultation, but mine's a step farther. I'm not just interviewing you as a client and having you interview me to see if I'm a good match for you as an attorney. I'm Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: actually planning strategy with you. So I'm talking to the attorney, I'm talking to the client. I'm talking, where is your child now? What's going on? What are the issues? Let's talk through options. You know, if you go this route, whether it be due process, mediation, or just having another school meeting, these are the potential outcomes. the this Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: is the cost. This is what it's gonna look like if you go this route. This is what it's gonna look like if you go that route. So you're actually talking through the strategy of what we can do. And a lot of times at the end of a strategy session, it'll be like, okay, great. Parent can go do it on their own, no problem. more often than not, I would say the parent's like, okay, great. how do we retain you to do all this? Cause I I'm just done. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: But so that's how it starts with the strategy session. And then it depends on the client on what they want. I go, you know, I being a former teacher, I can pick apart an IEP. So I prepare it for the IEP meeting. I'm able to go in, do, you know, well, this present level isn't clear, or the supplementary aids need a little bit of work. and and I do that. And I can do it in the background. where I Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: just review everything and then meet with the client and the parent goes to the meeting by themselves with my notes and can argue everything, or I can go to the meeting with the clients, whichever level. And then if it needs to be, we can go to mediation and file for due process and actually litigate if the case is strong enough. Jenni Awesome: So if a parent, so they they feel like their child is not getting the education that they should have, or I don't know if it's bullying or what other topics, why would a parent get to a point and come to you? What what does that person look like? Like how do how do they get to the point where they're like, I need an attorney? Frances Shefter: I what I usually say is if something doesn't feel right, if the school's giving you an answer that doesn't sound right, if Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: you're tired of fighting, if you get to the point of just I can't anymore, or just I don't know. You know, like I I've sat in an IEP meeting, the school's saying one thing. I I don't know if it's right or not. What what are my options? Can I look at anything else? Those are Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: most of the time when parents call me. It's that that question of is what this school is doing right? Am I making the best decisions for my child? Is there more information I need to make a better decision? Jenni Awesome: Yeah, I'm thinking of I have a friend here. So I'm up in Washington. I have a friend here who she has her adopted son. He's been in and out of mental health facilities and his he's the same age as my daughter, so they're eleventh graders this year. She has fought she's she's basically got a law degree herself from how much she has put in to try and support him. through this process to make sure that he's taken care of and get the education that he needs. And I I don't r I honestly don't know if we have a lot of education attorneys in our area that do what you do. Frances Shefter: There's not a lot of us. where I am in Maryland, there seems to be more than others. what I always tell people is I can be an attorney in Maryland and DC. I can be an Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: advocate nationwide. Jenni Awesome: Gotcha. Frances Shefter: because you don't have to be an attorney to be an advocate. It special education law is like a weird, you know, it's like a one Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: off thing because it's never that you don't have to be an attorney, but it just the law says that parents can bring a person of knowledge. So a person of knowledge is an advocate. So I can go as an advocate in another state. I just have to be very, very clear. I'm not an attorney. I'm an advocate. Although I am an attorney in other states, I'm not acting as an attorney here. and I also tell people like if you're to the point of needing an attorney, I can help find you an attorney. just because Jenni Awesome: It is. Frances Shefter: of the networks, you know, we are such a small group. We have some pretty tight networks of that we know each other across the nation. Because there are definitely times where I'll even say, like, yeah, I while I can help you as an advocate, I think you're at the point that you need an attorney and you're better off hiring an attorney in your state that knows Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: the states. Jenni Awesome: So I'm gonna back us up a little bit. I I know we totally went into teacher talking lingoland. So Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: just in case we have parents out there listening that are like, Hey, I think my child isn't getting the education that they need. Can you just briefly explain what's an IEP and and why does a person qualify for an an IEP? Frances Shefter: Definitely. So, you know, when parents have that something's not right, you know, my child's behind, I don't feel it. It's it's the first process is to write to the school. And I always say write because if it's not written down, it didn't happen. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: you know, and so write to the school, the principal, the special ed coordinator, if you happen to know, and and be specific. Like my child is struggling struggling. I think my child might have a learning disability. Or my child just got diagnosed with ADHD through the doctor, or whatever the situation is, be specific. I think there's an educational impact. I would like to start the special education process. And that's Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: the first thing. Federal law says you have to have the meeting. I want to say 30 days. 30 days. I always say it's federal law, but then I'm like, I know it's Maryland law. But you know, it within 30 days, within a reasonable time, they have to start the process within 30 days. And they need to have that, you know, schedule the meeting. They sit down. Schools all call it something different. you know, DC calls it the analysis of existing data, Maryland calls it the child fine, like whatever the meeting it is, they have that initial special education meeting to talk Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: about. Do we suspect a disability? You know, parents say they just got d suspect it, but do we see it in the classroom? Do we suspect it? At that meeting, there's three things that can happen. The school can say, hmm, we don't suspect a disability. We're not evaluating. It's done. They're not eligible. The school can say, hmm, okay, we see we see it. We see something going on that that deserves to Take a look at it and let's do some evaluations. And then you talk about what evaluations. Or the school can say, Yeah, you know what? You have enough data there, we see it all. Your child qualifies for special education. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: Each trigger timelines. If the child, if they say we're not going to evaluate, I usually tell parents to ask for an independent educational evaluation. well, definitely ask for the PWN, the prior written notice of like why they say it and what data they're using. I Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: tell them to ask for an independent educational evaluation because usually that triggers the school to be like, well, fine, and we'll just do the evaluation. there's there's a question of whether requesting the IEEE is technically legal at is technically warranted at that point, because the law says for an IEEE is if the school if The parent disagrees with the school's evaluation, they can request an IEEE. Well, there is no evaluation. So I interpret it as, right? And so I interpret Jenni Awesome: Gotcha. Yeah. Frances Shefter: it as the school has two responses when you ask for an IEEE. They can either say, yes, here, we'll grant it, or no, we stand by our evaluation. And Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: so we're gonna file for due process against you. Well, Jenni Awesome: Gotcha. Frances Shefter: there is no evaluation. So My experience has been the schools have said, no no no, we'll have a meeting, we'll do evaluations, and then we're fine as long as the evaluations get done. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: if the school determines they need more assessments, more evaluations, more data, they have sixty days to collect the data, come to the table and meet and review to determine eligibility. States Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: can make that shorter. But they can't make that longer. So sixty days is the absolute maximum from the point of consenting of that I that first IEP meeting and when they come to the table to review. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: If they determine that the child is eligible, they then have thirty days to do an initial IEP. Jenni Awesome: Now how does and and this is putting on my teacher hat, how does the timing of like it's the end of the school year? We have determined that this kiddo were concerned. How how does the end of the school year play into those dates? Frances Shefter: So interestingly enough, it depends on the state. In Maryland and DC, summer does not toll the timelines. Timelines are timelines. That's what Maryland did. What I discovered mainly in doing my show, talking to an advocate out in California, California says, I think it's, I wanna say 10 days. If schools closed more than 10 days, it stops the timeline and the Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: timeline restarts. Jenni Awesome: Okay. Frances Shefter: So It depends on your state, but look into your state and see where it is. but that being said, even in Maryland and DC, there are times that I'll say we agree evaluations need to be done, but we're okay with waiting to do consent until August because we want Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: the school team to do it, not the summer team, because the school team Jenni Awesome: Gotcha. Frances Shefter: already knows the child. Jenni Awesome: Gotcha. That makes sense. Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: Before we continue today's episode, I want to take a moment to talk about a mission that has become incredibly important to me. Every child deserves to grow up feeling safe, protected, valued, and free. Unfortunately, children around the world are being exploited and trafficked every day. And I don't believe we can simply hear about it, feel terrible, and move on. We have a collective responsibility to do something, to act. That's why I'm raising funds to support the fight against child trafficking and child exploitation and the organizations working to identify vulnerable children, rescue victims, and help survivors rebuild their lives. And you can do something. You Can be a valuable part of this mission and this work as well. You don't have to have thousands of dollars and you don't have to be an expert. You simply have the opportunity to decide that protecting children matters. Donate, share the mission, start a conversation, pay attention, use your voice. Because when enough ordinary people Decide that protecting children is our responsibility, extraordinary change becomes possible. If you'd like to stand with me, visit community.org backslash fundraiser seven three seven one zero two six. Together we can turn awareness into action, hope into impact. And create a world where children are protected. Protecting children is everyone's responsibility and it starts with us. So what are some of the biggest misconceptions that parents have about special education? Frances Shefter: that if your child is labeled, they'll never go to college, they're gonna be put in a classroom back in the corner and never be seen or heard from again. that their kid's gonna be labeled, you know, not is gonna be treated differently. you know, those the old school things of what it used to Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: be for special education. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. How how have you seen that change over the years? Frances Shefter: parents realize that their kids need the support to be able to be successful. So, Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: you know, where it used to be, you know, we don't want the kid labeled, they're never gonna go to college. Well the reality is if you don't label your child and get the supports, they're not gonna be successful in college anyway. You know, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: so you know, it it just you're not. If you don't learn the executive functioning skills, if you don't learn how to study, if you don't get that support to get your academics where they need to be, depending on what your disability is. And so it's it's a little bit more accepted Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: of that my kid has special needs and and needs that extra support. So parents are are definitely more open to it. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, and I I think that parents, you know, the earlier on that they voice that, I mean, the the better it is for the child. Frances Shefter: Right. Because when they're younger, they don't know the difference. And as the kids Jenni Awesome: Right. True. True. Frances Shefter: get older, a lot of times, like, well, I don't want to be different. I don't want people to know that I'm in a special ed class. I don't want to, you know. and the kids put that input. Which there are times that I've, you know, set we've exited kids from special education or lessened their supports because of that. And it Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: it's it's that fine line. Does the child need it? Yes. But is the child going to miss out on other instruction and anxiety is going to be worse because they're falling behind? And you have to take that balance of, you know, let's look at the whole picture of supports necessary versus what the the negative impact of putting supports in place might have. Jenni Awesome: that's a huge point. Yeah, especially when they do get older. Frances Shefter: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jenni Awesome: So what rights do parents often not realize that they have? Frances Shefter: They have a right to ask questions and disagree and to ask for clarity. You know, Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: parents often we wanna trust the schools. Like, look, I'm a parent too. My kids are in public school. I want to trust the schools. I have a little bit of an advantage. They're a little bit more open with me, but but in general, we wanna make sure that, you know, we wanna know that the kids are doing the right thing. We wanna know that our kids are being educated. we wanna be We want to be aware, you know, one of the biggest things that keeps popping into my head is is the financial, is the is the Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: school saying, well, we can't afford to do that. And I get what you're saying, but if your child needs it, they need to figure out how to afford it. They can't just blow you off because of the money. Jenni Awesome: No. Frances Shefter: and that's the biggest thing is that parents need to know, question it. You're part of the team. You know your child better than anybody in that IEP team. They might all Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: have You know, they might all have degrees. Yeah, they know education better, they know psychology better, they know speech better, but they don't know your child. And, you know, the more we learn about special education and neurodiversity, the more we realize it very, very few children have this I I would say no children have the same profile. You know, you can't say Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: right? Like you can't say, it's a autistic child, here's the box that we put them in and here are the things we give. Like No. Jenni Awesome: No, they they all have something different. Like I remember one of my favorite autistic kiddos that I had in my class. His he was obsessed with moles, like the little critters. And Frances Shefter: shit. Jenni Awesome: so we were always talking about moles and learning about moles. And it just I just couldn't wait for the day where he actually got into like math and science, where they actually talked about like mathematical models of moles for him. Like that. Frances Shefter: Right. Jenni Awesome: That was a vision I had for him to learn that there were other types of moles. Frances Shefter: Right. And that and that's the thing. It's like every child is different. And as a parent, you're the one that knows the best. And what strategies you use at home and what's worked in other classrooms and what's worked or hasn't worked in other classrooms. And that's the input to have that conversation. And if the school tries to shut you down, push back, fight back. You know, you are an equal member. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Yeah. A parent should be able Yeah, the the parents should be able to go into the classroom and and see how their kid is acting too. It shouldn't Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: be a secret. It's their kid. They Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: they need to know and and I see a huge disconnect between our school systems and parents. Like there's there's Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: that huge lack where parents are like you were talking about, that we want to believe that the teachers have the best interests, that the principal, you know, they know everything, they have everything right. But but if we as parents say, Hey, something's just not right, we need to find a way to work together to find the solution to support the child. Frances Shefter: Right. And I always say it's not like we always see say something's not right. And I always like to point out it's not necessarily that something's not right means somebody's wrong. You know? And that that's a that's such a point that hits often with my shorts and and people I talk to and stuff, they're like, Why are you blaming teachers? Why are you blaming principal? Why are you blaming the SLP? I'm like, I'm not blaming anyone. It's just the reality of the fact that something's not right. This child's not making progress. Why? Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: I'm just saying, why? Where's the data? What's supporting? And I Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: I I've gone into IEP meetings and I'm like, look, you guys are doing the best you can. You have gone above and beyond for this child. Unfortunately, it's not enough. We need to look Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: at a different placement. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: And that's not saying anything bad about the teacher or the SLP or the OT or the school itself. It's saying it's just not the right fit. We need to look Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: at something different. Jenni Awesome: It's like if you think about, you know, a typical school, there's what, fifteen, twenty, thirty plus teachers. Every Frances Shefter: Mm-hmm. Jenni Awesome: teacher teaches in a slightly different way, even if they have the exact same curriculum. They run things differently, they teach things differently. It doesn't have anything to do with Miss Wilson over here. If, you know, Miss Bonham does a better job of teaching it for the way that that student learns. It's it's nothing about the teachers. It's about finding that way that we connect with the kids in that that gets them into that zone of proximal development so that they're willing to take those educational risks and learn. Frances Shefter: Right. And that I wish our school systems did more of here's a teacher's teaching style, here's the students learning style, let's match them together. Jenni Awesome: Wouldn't that be amazing? my god. Frances Shefter: Right? I'm I know, I'm so tired of hearing principals say, well, you know, when they're adults, they're gonna have to learn how to work for people that they don't get along with or work with people that they don't run along with. And I'm like, okay, first, they're not adults, they're children, and we're learning basic Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: skills, so it shouldn't be now. Second, that's not true. Because as an adult, if you don't Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: like your working environment, you don't like your boss, what are you gonna do? Quit. Find another job. You know, like it it just to me it's like that's comparing a skill that an adult might have to have in the future is not how Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: we should be describing what's happening with a child right now. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. 'Cause if if I know I'm not good at cooking, I'm not gonna go apply to be a chef. Like don't Frances Shefter: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Jenni Awesome: put me in the cooking class. Frances Shefter: Right. And if I know if I know a student needs a very strict environment, keeping to the timeline, you know, keeping to the schedule, that type of thing. I'm not gonna put that student with the teacher that's very loosey, you know, like, yeah, we'll do this, we'll do that. It's fine for that teacher to be like that. It worked great for some kids, but not our kids Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: that need that strict schedule. You're just setting everybody Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: up for failure. Jenni Awesome: my gosh. All right. What what mistakes do you see parents unintentionally make during the IEP process? Frances Shefter: I hate saying trusting the school, but unfortunately Jenni Awesome: It's true. Frances Shefter: it is. It's, it's, it's not questioning, not not being, and that's why I like not feeling confident enough in that IAP meeting to know that you are an equal, you know, not empowered enough to give that pushback of, you know, Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: the teacher says, well, he's doing XYZ. Really? He doesn't do that at home. How do you get him to do that? You're not questioning the teacher. You're not telling the teacher she's lying. But Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: if he's not doing it at home, what's going on that he is doing it at school? Or is he really doing it at school? Or is the teacher just saying that? Because right? Like Jenni Awesome: Is it another kid who maybe sits in the same area and looks kind of sorta the same and and does that behavior during that time and we think it's this one kid? Frances Shefter: Right, exactly. Exactly. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. So I want to hear a little bit about your kids too and your process being the parents also on on this side. So tell us a bit about that. Frances Shefter: So parent guilt is real. I have it as well. You know, I always say Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: that. And what I also say to parents often is we make the best decisions with the information we have at that time. When Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: we have different information, we make different decisions. But don't go back and beat yourself up for decisions you made prior. my daughter, my oldest, was had speech. Delays at 18 months is when I got her evaluated. And I, of course, felt so guilty. I'm like, I was a teacher, I'm a special ed major, I'm an education attorney. Like, how does my child have speech delays? You know, like I was just, how did I not see this? and you know, so then I jumped and got services for her, and I of course did I got through the county services, but I also did private services because as we all know, the more services younger, the better. Jenni Awesome: Mm mm. Frances Shefter: And so she was getting services. she switched to an IEP the year before kindergarten at four is when you have to. So she was bused to to to the school for speech. I went into the meeting, she was having word recall problems, which is funny because I do too. but like, you know, that you you know the word, but you can't it doesn't come out right. Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: Right? And so like things simple things for her. She would say something like, Mom, I want that, you know that stuff that you I'm like, soup? And she's like, Yeah, soup. So like words she knew, you know. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: But she was really good at being able to come up with other ways of describing it. so I wanted her evaluated. And this is when she was in preschool so and I'm sitting there at the table and they're like, Well We need to do research-based instruction and we need to do this and we'll wait and see. Right. If you've seen any of my videos, wait and see is like a death. No. Never ever ever say that to me. Like, uh-uh. We don't wait and see on anything. And so I said, well, so these are the research-based instruction techniques that this preschool teacher has been doing. This is what I'm doing at home. This is what they're doing. And they're looking at me like, wow, but let's get her into kindergarten. I'm like, no, no, no, no. No. And I said, let let me introduce myself fully. Because they just knew me as Frances Levita, my married name. And it Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: was before I had my show and all this other stuff. And I'm like, so I have my undergrad in early childhood. I have my master's in special ed. I taught for seven years. I was special ed coordinator for two years, and I'm an education attorney now. Jaws dropped, picked jaws up and said, What evaluations would you like? I'm like, thank you. Of course I got the full. But it's frustrating because they shouldn't have to do that. You know, and Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: I got the so at that point I got the full evaluation. you know, there was some issues. Interestingly enough, this was back in kindergarten. my oldest and she and I always like to say she does know I share on my show and she's okay with it, she got diagnosed with autism, but not until I wanna say she was nine or ten. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: Even though she had an IEP and had all of that, it's because she has the PDA profile, pathological demand avoidance, which is a very, Jenni Awesome: Okay. Frances Shefter: very different profile from what we knew with autism. And so it wasn't till I had a client that came in and said, my kid has PDA, and I started reading about it and I went, my God. It all makes sense. This is my kid. You know. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: Because with autism, like she makes eye contact. She has deep relationships. She has conversations about any topic with any age person. Like my adult friends love talking to her because she like just, you know, talks and is great. And and so like the classic autism wasn't there. But once Jenni Awesome: Right. Frances Shefter: you learn about the PDA, it was. So that was with my oldest. My youngest, it was kindergarten. And the teacher who actually my older one had, the teacher's like, so she's behind in reading. I'm like, I know. I should be doing homework more, I should be doing reading more at home. And she's like, yeah, no, she's been getting a lot of extra help. We have her paired with a tutor and she's still behind. And she said, but the indicators don't show dyslexia, so I'm not sure what's going on. And I'm like Okay, this was the end of kindergarten. So I went and paid for private evaluations because I didn't want a summer team doing it and I just Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: felt like I know school evaluations are great, but for her, I wanted it dug deeper. Like I wanted the full evaluation and go deeper. And Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: so came back with, of course, dyslexia, because forget their little indicators, they're not true. Dyslexia, Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: dysgraphia, ADHD, and anxiety. And the ADHD Jenni Awesome: Wow. Frances Shefter: surprised me. Because I was like, it makes sense now, but it I it didn't even like I didn't even see it and even with all my training. And she was six at this time, you know? And so it's it's you know, as I say the parent guilt, like, why didn't I see it before? Why didn't I see the dyslexia before? What you know, like because you don't, no matter you know, like as a parent, i i we're just trying to survive the day, right? Sometimes. Jenni Awesome: Well and and sometimes you don't see it unless you see them in that group setting comparing them with an a group of of similar kids. And and and not everyone has that. Frances Shefter: Right. Exactly. Right. And and parents that are like first time parents, or if they've never seen they've never been exposed to it. I mean, like, I'm exposed to it. I have the education, but if the average person If they don't have anybody with disabilities in their cl in their home, you know, which i I Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: hate saying disabilities, but you know, neurodiversity in their family, they don't know. Is this normal? Are these normal? They're hitting the milestones, but is it normal the way they're doing it? You don't know. What do you have to compare it to? Jenni Awesome: Yeah. And and they don't show us that on T V either. Frances Shefter: No. No. Because movies are totally wrong on everything. yeah. Jenni Awesome: So so what was their experience through, you know, did they get IEPs? Do they have five fours? Like were were they successful? Frances Shefter: They both have IEPs. Yeah. So they both have IEPs. They're both still in public school. My older one is going into seventh grade. She Jenni Awesome: Nay. Frances Shefter: it's a funny story. She yeah, I did I was not sure if middle school was going to be successful. sixth grade started very, very rocky, but we we we got through. We got through. but I also Jenni Awesome: I bet. Frances Shefter: have like I don't require homework in my house. You know, yes, Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: I know it's a part of the grade, but you know what, they i they just spent eight hours in school with transportation and everything. I'm not gonna spend two hours fighting with them to do homework, you know? Like I if you know the material, it's fine. If you wanna do it, I'm here to support you. But I I'm not I'm not doing that fight. You know, they need downtime. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, right. Frances Shefter: It's too stressful. but my she also knows that if she just can't for whatever reason, she's not in it. She can stay home from school. She doesn't abuse it because she doesn't like falling behind. She wants to go to school usually. but she I got I guess it was October last year. I got a call from the speech teacher. And of course the whole school, you know, everybody knows what I do for a living now because it's just, you know, it's not like I can hide it anymore. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: but the speech teacher's like, so I went to get her for speech and she refused to come and I'm not exactly what sure what to do. I'm like, don't worry about it. Just go in the speech service log, put that she refused to come. I'm fine with that. As long as you offered it to her, you're legally compliant, you're good. and she's like, okay. And I said, and I'll talk to her. So I talked to her when she got home and she goes, Mom, I don't need speech. People understand me. They she pulls me out of class. I get behind in class. I feel different because I'm getting pulled and everybody knows I don't want speech anymore. And I said, okay, good argument. And I talked Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: to the speech teacher and I talked to the special ed coordinator. I'm like, do we need to have a meeting? And they're like, nah, we're good. We agree. No problem. Move it to consult. But like that was a case of does she still need speech? 100%. Are there times I don't understand her? 100%. But not worth. the 30 minutes a week of speech for her to be stressed and anxiety and falling behind in class. Jenni Awesome: Right. Well, that's great that she was able to advocate for herself and and, you know, putting herself on that path of recognizing that she has these supports and to come up with that argument as to why this other thing is more important for her for her education than continuing with that support at this time. Frances Shefter: Right. Yeah. And that's I mean, it's you know, I would call her my little lawyer all the time. but like you know, like but Jenni Awesome: Ha ha Frances Shefter: it but it's true, but but I'm also very she's been going to her IEP meetings since fourth grade. she doesn't go to the whole one, but I want her there to give her input like on the supplementary aids and the accommodations. What's working, what's not working? What supports Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: are we giving to you that you think work and don't? Because I want her to understand where she is and what her needs are so that she can advocate for herself. And so she has that skill at such a young age, which is gonna be amazing for her in the future. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, I was one of the the as a middle school math teacher. And then when I went into admin, I was at every IEP that I could be at. I found it interesting the families that said, we don't want our kids here, versus I always advocate for kids being there. My own kids have been there in their IEP or 504 meetings. Can you talk a little bit about like that difference between like Why it's either good to have your kids or maybe there's times where you don't have your kids in the meeting. Frances Shefter: So it depends on the child, of course. You know, typical lawyer answer. It depends. but it does. And and parents know their child best. And as I said, like my older one only comes in for the accommodations and the supplementary aids part. I don't have Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: her there for the present levels. I don't have her there for the goals, because that's all too overwhelming for her. I have clients that bring their cl their kids in at the beginning and then we can tell when the c when the kids checked out and we're like, you can go Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: now. And I have clients that like their kids to be there the entire meeting because i those are usually the older clients. because you know, the older kids, I mean not clients. the older kids because, you know, they're in high school now. They're gonna have to advocate for themselves in college or in adulthood. And so we need them there more. but it it's there have been times I've had clients that are like, you know what, they've been in the last three meetings and it's just too upsetting for them. So they c they we're not gonna bring them. And that's understandable Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: too. Or it causes too much anxiety for the child, then obviously it's not worth bringing them. But I'm a very strong believer that the child needs to know what's going on with the IEP. So even if your child's not in the IEP meeting, I always ask for like the special ed coordinator or whoever the case manager is or whoever the kids the child's trusted adult is to talk to them about what their accommodations are and talk to them about their supplementary aids so that they understand it. Because if Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: the kids don't understand what they're supposed to get, they don't know what to advocate and they don't know why are they being treated differently, what's going on. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, so let's let's flip this for a minute. Let's talk about what schools are able to do. So what's some advice that you have for, say, teachers that are out there working with the students? What can they do to better support our neurodivergent learners? Frances Shefter: So one of the things that I say all the time is look at your kids' IEPs. I know you got 38 kids Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: and 10 of them have IEPs, let's be real. But at least like the supplementary aids and services and see what's there. A lot of times kids have the same thing, movement breaks, you know, brain Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: breaks. Work those into your daily schedule, you know? Jenni Awesome: And do them for everyone. Frances Shefter: Exactly. You know, like boom, you're done. You know, it's you know, I remember when I taught kindergarten and I could tell the kids were getting antsy and I'd be like, Okay, books closed, everybody up and we would do head, shoulders, knees and toes for two minutes. And then everybody would Jenni Awesome: Thank you. Frances Shefter: sit down and be back in. I you know, I did that with my middle and high school kids too, the short time I taught middle and high school. but you know, like but that's the thing. It's like look at what's on the IEP and think of how you can naturally put that into your classroom day so that Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: it's easy for you and it's achieving the goals without making it more difficult as a teacher. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, and I this may be an overgeneralization, but I n I don't know of any of those accommodations or those supports that are bad teaching for anybody. I mean, Frances Shefter: Yep. Jenni Awesome: if if we just build it into our school day that we know, hey, kids can't sit this long. Let's get them up with them move, you know, have wiggle chairs, wiggle seats. Like my daughter had her own wiggle seat. I use it now because she doesn't need it in high school, but She we had our own wiggle seats and Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: and knowing that these are all just great strategies that we as humans need. Frances Shefter: A hundred percent. And I when I went to school for my masters, so I had already been teaching a couple years, I went to school for my masters, and I remember tea learning strategies, and I'm like, Why don't they teach this to everybody? Why is this a special end strategy? Like, this is just should be best teaching practices, period. You know? Jenni Awesome: yeah. My special education class that I took for my education certification was the worst planned class. It it didn't do special education a good service because it they offered it one day a week and it was for f a four hour block. And and that's not that's not even how you you teach well. Frances Shefter: Yeah, sometimes you wonder. Jenni Awesome: I know. So if there's a principle out there that they're recognizing, hey, we're not strong in supporting our neurodivergent kiddos, we have a lot of disconnect with our families, is there any advice you would give to say a building administrator to make some small shifts and improve their special education? Frances Shefter: it's a really good question. I they themselves should be educated on special education. You know, that's what I find often is that the principals don't understand special education sometimes. Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: I'm also, you know, like have a PTA meeting focused on special education and go as the principal. and talk about it. You know, do do a focus group with some of your special education parents. Be like, hey, what can we do to support you? Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: because it's not every school system is not the same, every school is not the same, and what's needed is not the same. Whereas if you have a focus group and you talk to your your parents, like how do you all feel included in the school? What can we do different to make it better? What are you finding is necessary? You know, parents are gonna appreciate that. I mean, I know me as a parent, I appreciate that. you know, of that the principal's caring and trying to do something about it. Don't put it as, well, that's a special ed problem. The special ed person should deal with that, you know. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: and that's that's the biggest. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, I've been in a couple of those buildings where the principal i i it was the special education department's problem. It was we they didn't even talk to each other. It there was it it was just kind of a a a circus a runaround of that's how we kept missing dates and kept, you know, not serving the kids because we just kept getting the runaround of, well, so and so needs to deal with it. No, so and so needs to deal with it. When Frances Shefter: Bye. Jenni Awesome: The the intentionality behind an individualized education plan is how do we support each kid so that they do graduate successfully. Yeah. Frances Shefter: Right. And it's the whole wrap around. Jenni Awesome: Yes, it is. So what is one thing that every parent should know before they attend their first IEP meeting? Frances Shefter: You know your kid best. You know your child best. I think that if parents go in with that confidence, it changes the entire Flavor, I don't know, we can't think of a word better than that, flavor of the meeting. You know what I mean? Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: I just see parents too many times go in and feel intimidated because they have the psychologist, they have the speech language pathologist, all these people with degrees, you know, and they feel like Jenni Awesome: An acronym. Frances Shefter: right, and acronyms exactly. And I Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: don't know as much as them, but you do. Like the the the They were very intentional the way they determined the IEP team. You Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: know, there needs to be a regular education teacher who knows the curriculum. There needs to be a special education teacher who knows how to modify and what, you know, supports could be. There needs to be an administrator who's the local education, you know, or local education agent. agency representative that knows like the whole picture that runs it usually. There needs to be somebody that can interpret data, which is usually our psychologist. And there needs to be the parent, because the parent knows Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: the child best. And we all have different roles and we're all equal team members. And so going in as a parent with that confidence, knowing you know your child best and you are an equal member and you can push for them to hear you. I think would change everything. Jenni Awesome: Do you do you have any resources that you would recommend to parents if they are just beginning this journey? Frances Shefter: So interestingly enough, I just started, I shouldn't say just, I think I'm on I think I'm a number five. I have so I have a video on my website how to prepare for an IEP meeting, but I also am in the process, in the middle of doing a series of how to read an IEP. Jenni Awesome: Nice. Frances Shefter: yeah, so it's it's a blog post and so it starts with the present levels and it we're going through each part of the IEP and how they all connect and what it should look like to help teach parents. How to read an IEP. So when they're looking Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: at it. so you know, those are the ones. There's also, I mean, rights law does a training. I don't know if they're as active as they used to be. I did their training once. I think it's great for parents. Jenni Awesome: Mm. Frances Shefter: COPA, become a member of COPA, which is the coalition of parents, attorneys, and advocates, which is a great resource. They do a conference every year. Mom groups, dad groups, parent groups, support groups on Facebook. I'll tell you they're the best. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Frances Shefter: I love I I learn a lot from them. it's Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: so funny. Yeah, because I'm on them as a parent, naturally. But every now and then I'll be like, I did a video on this. If you wanna see it, let me know. Like I try not to promote myself, but I'm like, if I have a video, but I I I do. Like I'll go to those events and be like, I just want to be a mom and they're like, Yeah, you can't. I'm like, come on. Jenni Awesome: So on that note of of not promoting yourself, let's promote you. Where where do people find you? Like you're on social Frances Shefter: Yes. Jenni Awesome: media, you have your website. How do people find you? Frances Shefter: So Sheftalaw.com is my website. All of my social media links are there. Sheftalaw PA, I think is my handle for TikTok, Instagram. LinkedIn is under Sheftalaw, Facebook is under Shefter Law, Threads, like I'm on all of them. but the easiest is going to Sheftalaw.com because it's all like that's the learning hub. You can go to all the social medias, but you can sign up for my newsletter. you can sign up to learn about when my podcasts are coming out weekly, what's going on. All of my blogs are there, all of my videos are there, I think. but that's the best. It's like chefdeloud.com, come learn about us. There's a whole bunch of free information for parents. Jenni Awesome: Excellent. And I know we're coming up on time, so I just want to ask, is there anything we haven't covered that you'd like to share? Frances Shefter: So I think you hit it all. It's just, you know, parents, it it's a journey being a parent, especially when we add those neurodiverse kids, especially when we add more than one neurodiverse kid with a different diagnosis. Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: but you know, trust yourself, trust your gut, and give yourself a lot of grace because it's hard. Jenni Awesome: yeah, the the parent support out there because parents, you're you're the advocates. Never apologize for advocating for your child. That is that is your job. You get to advocate for those kiddos. All right. So I ask every guest this question because it gets to the heart of why we do what we do. If you had the opportunity to change one thing in education that would have the greatest positive impact on the next generation, what would it be? Frances Shefter: One thing about education. you know what, it it's gonna sound so corny, but what comes to my head is let teachers teach. You know? Like they're spend so school systems spend so much money on putting on, this new reading curriculum is so fabulous, and this new math curriculum is so fabulous, and let's the teachers have to read this and do this, and the teachers aren't getting to teach anymore. Like, let's trust our Jenni Awesome: Mm-hmm. Frances Shefter: teachers. Like, yes, you need a curriculum, but Give the teachers room to work to know their kids and actually teach. And God, that would make such a difference. Not Jenni Awesome: yeah. Frances Shefter: everybody have to teach the same thing the same way to every student. Jenni Awesome: Yeah, I think about you know, my teachers from the past and the things that I learned from them were not in a book, were not in the curriculum. I don't think there was a curriculum to build a spaceship in class, but we built a spaceship. Frances Shefter: No. Awesome. I love it. Jenni Awesome: Yeah. Yeah. Frances Shefter: Yeah. Jenni Awesome: Well, Francis, it was wonderful having you on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on and we'll see you next time on the Jennifer Awesome Podcast. Frances Shefter: Thank you.