Latest / Blocked and Reported / Episode 272: Death By Internet

Transcript

Episode 272: Death By Internet · Blocked and Reported

• 0:02
  Katie, what's up?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not much, Jesse.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Can I tell you something I saw the other day?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was very strange.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would love that.
• 0:15
  Jana and I went paddle boarding at this little lake near our
• 0:19
  house a few weeks ago.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: And after we got out, we were the only people there.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was very nice.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful Pacific Northwest summer day.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Very nice time.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then after we got out, we took our shit out of the boat launch.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're at the car.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Only people in the parking lot.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this car pulled up.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: And a man wearing, he was dressed like you, actually.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: He was wearing, like, khakis.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, a cool guy.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was actually more like you if you worked at a bank.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, it was, like, khakis and, like, a button-down.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Khakis and a button-down.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: And, like, what are those shoes called?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: The casual, the ones that menswear guy hates.
• 0:54
  They're,
• 0:54
  like,
• 0:55
  they look like dress shoes,
• 0:55
  but they have sneakers on the bottom.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Ah.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: Not Dockers.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Dockers are pants.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Dockers are pants.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, are Dockers pants or shoes?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, he was dressed like he worked at a bank.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: But like a key bank or not like a banker, like a guy who works at a bank.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
• 1:11
  so he gets out of his car and he fully closed and he walks into
• 1:16
  the water fully
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: closed and just stands there for a minute and
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then gets out and gets in his car and drives away.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like getting all the shit wet?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Fully clothed.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Shoes, pants, shirt, all of it.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Gets in the water, stands there, walks away.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: He probably went to work and was like, a bully pushed me into a puddle.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm upset.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Can I have the rest of the day off?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's my guess.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: That actually would make more sense.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I thought maybe he was drunk, but actually yours makes more sense.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was really strange.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I might.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is a situation where a man has clearly lost his mind.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I hope he is not armed.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: I saw something even cooler,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: which was I'm in my hometown,
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: which is a wealthy Boston suburb,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: and the public library no longer has any fines.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: So the rich people can just take the books.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: Justice.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Black Lives Matter, except there's no black people.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: I assumed you grabbed a copy of,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: some James Baldwin and walked out of the library without checking out.
• 2:12
  I basically did one of those viral Fox News scenes of a group
• 2:16
  of kids just runs
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: into a store and just takes everything they can,
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: but with books.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: No fines!
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: No fines!
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: You can't touch me!
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: What are we talking about today, Katie?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: On this episode of Blocked Reporter, which is the show this is.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 2:28
  Today we have not one,
• 2:30
  but two stories of the internet allegedly driving someone to
• 2:33
  suicide.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: We've had a fair bit of this lately.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Also some fake suicide.
• 2:37
  Well,
• 2:38
  I was going to say driven to as it chose to say he was going to
• 2:42
  commit suicide.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: That was our last Primo episode.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking more of the Aubrey Wyatt story.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one comes from the world of comics.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Jesse, are you a comics guy?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: You seem like an Archie guy.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not a comics guy, and I despise everyone who likes comics.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: That surprises me.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: You just sort of exude comics.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Just not something I ever got into.
• 3:00
  And I think it's now been tainted by the sheer quantity of just
• 3:04
  unwatchable movies
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: based on comic books.
• 3:06
  Maybe this isn't fair,
• 3:07
  but that makes me want to read the source material even less.
• 3:11
  OK,
• 3:11
  well,
• 3:11
  this is a subculture that we haven't really delved into before.
• 3:13
  And you may be expecting something on the lines of like our
• 3:16
  knitting dramas,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: politics,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: censorship,
• 3:19
  yarn dyers faking their own deaths because they can't get
• 3:22
  products out on time,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: stuff like that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: But no, it turns out that comics are much darker.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is your warning.
• 3:28
  For this first one,
• 3:28
  we have to go back in time all the way to spring 2024.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: The main character here is Ed Pisker.
• 3:34
  This is a guy in his early 40s who turned his lifelong love of
• 3:37
  comics into a successful career.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So Ed was born in 1982.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And during his childhood,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: he read comics the traditional way,
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: on paper,
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: as God intended.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: But by the time he was an adult, the Internet had become a thing.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he worked in both spheres, so print and digital.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he was extremely good at bridging the gap between 3D and online.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, Jesse, have you ever heard the name Ed Pisker?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know,
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: it's one of many situations as I get older where I want to say yes,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: but on the other hand,
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: No, you haven't.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So one of his most famous works was his Hip Hop Family Tree,
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: which was this lengthy series outlining the early history of hip hop.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: This started out on Boing Boing and it ran there as a regular feature.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was released as a print collection by Fantagraphics.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the series was a big success.
• 4:25
  And this led to Ed being picked up by Marvel Comics to work on
• 4:28
  an X-Man series.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously this was a big deal in the comics world.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So not just some random guy with a webcomic.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about a real star here.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And in 2019,
• 4:38
  Ed began collaborating with a fellow artist named Jim Rugg on a
• 4:40
  YouTube channel
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: called Cartoonist K-Fobby.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: What is K-Fobby?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: That seems like a sex term.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:46
  It's basically the whole sort of fake but people pretend it's
• 4:50
  real thing in
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: wrestling,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: I believe.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look it up.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So not a sex term.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: People love when we Google stuff on here.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: In professional wrestling,
• 4:56
  the actor convention of presenting stage performances as
• 4:59
  genuine or authentic.
• 5:00
  So it's like the way we pretend to get in fights even though we
• 5:04
  love each other.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Super.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: And never get into conflicts off mic.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Super.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they reviewed comics, talked about... That's Kate Fobby.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: They reviewed comics, talked about movies based on comics.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: They explained how comics are made.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: They did bios of figures in the comics industries.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it was successful in its niche.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: But these videos are very much for the dedicated comic book fan only.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: So like their video review of The Dark Knight Returns,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: that's the Batman comic,
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: is over two and a half hours.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is two minutes longer than the actual The Dark Knight film.
• 5:36
  But this YouTube video has been viewed nearly 75,000 times and
• 5:39
  the comments are just glowing.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So here's a couple.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Watching this again, that's in all caps.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys so much for all you do.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: You are pure oxygen to the comic culture.
• 5:47
  Tried to let this play in the background while I drew,
• 5:49
  but became engrossed.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Great stuff.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I love this channel.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's literally perfect.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: So these guys are passionate and so are their fans.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And things were seemingly going well for Ed.
• 5:59
  He's one of the rare comic book dudes who managed to parlay his
• 6:02
  passion into a real career.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then in March 2024, all that changed.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: I was waiting for something to go horribly wrong.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I assume this is when that happens.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: So now we need to meet Molly Dwyer.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an artist who went by the name Sid Goblin online.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: She was a promising amateur comic book artist.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: She has vanished from social media now,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: but you can see photos of her work that were tagged by other people.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: on Instagram.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: And her work is interesting.
• 6:28
  I don't know much about this particular art form,
• 6:30
  but it kind of reminds me of our crime.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's very busy, very intricate, very dark.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So Molly was a talented young female artist.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: She was just 21 at the time all this takes place.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And in March 2024,
• 6:42
  she suddenly shared a lot of Instagram stories that were
• 6:46
  screenshots of DMs between
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: her and Ed Pisker from four years before in 2020.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesse, let's read these.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're in our notes.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Start with her commentary.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, Ed Piscor is a fucking creep.
• 6:58
  He likes little high school girls and slid in my DMs when I was
• 7:00
  17 years old.
• 7:01
  I didn't know of him and he found me simply by me liking one of
• 7:04
  his pictures.
• 7:05
  Sending me a post of myself in my school uniform calling me a
• 7:08
  cute nerdy girl and
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: saying to come out to Pittsburgh and stay with him.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: He'd take me out to lunch to meet other PG cartoonists.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's Pittsburgh, I guess?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's Pittsburgh, yeah.
• 7:18
  Overall fucking weird with no gray area for what he's trying to
• 7:21
  do over the course of a year.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Obvious to anyone on the planet.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Calling me a good girl and a naughty girl all the time.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, which was it?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: Are you a good girl or a naughty girl?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sending me unfinished.
• 7:30
  I probably shouldn't joke about this because something horrible
• 7:31
  is going to happen.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: Sending me unfinished pages of his as a quote unquote secret.
• 7:36
  And gassing me up constantly,
• 7:38
  basically trying to groom me into whatever the fuck.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Saying my art was so good and saying he'd promote my work.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Eventually,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: as COVID phased out,
• 7:45
  and I think he saw I was not just some nobody high school girl
• 7:47
  drawing gore art,
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: I started ghosting him,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: eventually understanding this was weird as fuck.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Okay,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: so if A,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: this was a high school girl,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: and B,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: just not knowing anything else about how this is going to go down,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: because I am fresh to the story,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: if Piscor knew she was a high school girl,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: you cannot even send a fucking DM to her.
• 8:07
  There's no such thing as,
• 8:08
  I don't think,
• 8:09
  innocent DMs with a high school girl.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's read the actual DMs.
• 8:12
  Do you want to be the high school girl or do you want to be the
• 8:14
  adult male artist?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: The high school girl.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to be the high school girl.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my God.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'll start.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Naughty girl, that's my favorite.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then hook them horns emoji?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's a big Texas fan.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_03: Is that referring to something she drew probably?
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: Who knows?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're only seeing the screenshots.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like you'd be a good partner in crime.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a snitch, are you?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: If we robbed some banks, you wouldn't rat me out, would you?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't dream of it.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'd prefer to be Raul Duke and Dr. Gonzo if that's an option.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And he's hard in both those posts.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not going to do that voice anymore.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: I apologize.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And she's hard at all.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: His post too, by the way.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Good girl.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: You gave the correct answers.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's another screenshot.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is her talking.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I felt like he was trying to, this is on all caps, trying to groom me.
• 8:57
  This is about the inappropriate nature of Ed Piskar's
• 8:59
  communication with me.
• 9:01
  I was way younger than him and starstruck that someone famous
• 9:04
  like my art I was
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: posting to essentially no one but my friends.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Also,
• 9:08
  having a boyfriend who knew of his work and wanted to push me
• 9:11
  to respond to him did
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: not help.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm totally fine.
• 9:14
  I'm not trying to ruin anyone's career or try and say people
• 9:17
  shouldn't reach out to
• 9:18
  artists or an artist should stop reaching out to their audience
• 9:20
  on social media or
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the fuck.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm stating that it was weird.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is all caps.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was 17, turning 18, a senior in high school.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: He was 40.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: There was no good reason,
• 9:28
  good or wholesome reason for a grown ass man to be calling a
• 9:31
  young girl naughty.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: perving on her pictures and her uniform,
• 9:34
  constant complimenting with vague implications of helping her
• 9:36
  career by sticking
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: with him.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: That is what I am trying to say by stating this shit.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 21 now.
• 9:41
  I don't like that sex pests can do whatever the fuck they want
• 9:43
  and everyone just
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: lets them because they have success in any field.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: What if I went to his house?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Was more naive?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: More desperate for attention?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Weird as fuck.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what goes on in his life.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So what if it's possible he had continued to do this?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So do people know?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it goes on like that for a while.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: She has more screenshots basically of this kind of nature,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: her calling him creepy,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: saying that he was a groomer.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: he has someone,
• 10:05
  she has like an old wood carving of someone in the stocks named
• 10:08
  Titus Oates,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: apparently for corrupting the youth.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's one of her posts.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:15
  So Ed at this point is the world thinks that he invited a high
• 10:21
  school girl to come meet him.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now, these stories tend to have lots of twists and turns.
• 10:27
  You have not yet presented me with a screenshot of that exact
• 10:30
  thing happening just
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: for saying it.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: How did Ed respond to this?
• 10:32
  So he didn't respond,
• 10:33
  but he did turn the comments off of his own Instagram.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then after Molly's post, the floodgates opened.
• 10:39
  So other young women started coming forward with Piskor stories
• 10:42
  of their own.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So for an example, another woman named Molly, this is Molly Wright.
• 10:46
  She posted on Instagram that he had asked her for oral sex in
• 10:49
  exchange for his
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: agent's phone number.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Another woman took... Not good.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus, that's so dark.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Also, you can find out who his agent is again, just to be clear.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Another woman,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Tefeta Darling,
• 11:00
  she tweeted that he had asked her to come back to his house and
• 11:03
  let him draw her
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: nude.
• 11:05
  She said that he offered to introduce her to big names in the
• 11:08
  industry if she would
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: let him draw her naked.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Someone posted this on Reddit.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Jesse, please read this.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was a longtime fan of cartoonist Kefabe.
• 11:16
  I bought some of their published works and have contributed to
• 11:18
  the Patreons.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: Watching their videos was a highlight of my day.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: It reignited my love of comics and expanded my knowledge of the art form.
• 11:25
  The channel introduced me to many other artists who may have
• 11:29
  otherwise fallen off my radar.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: I respected Ed and Jim's insight and work ethic.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I personally don't care if Ed DMs cam girls, sex workers, etc.
• 11:38
  As someone else in this thread alleged,
• 11:39
  I do care that he DMs his female fans to solicit nudes.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 12:04
  His obsession with little girls makes me question his motives
• 12:06
  behind his latest effort.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: Switchblade shorties.
• 12:11
  After being a longtime fan of CK and then chatting with Ed
• 12:14
  nearly every day for a
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: month,
• 12:15
  I realized this was a case of never meet your heroes and
• 12:18
  decided to end the
• 12:18
  communication with this artist I had deeply admired because it
• 12:21
  was toxic AF.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: This is not exactly related,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: but since I've been on Instagram,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_03: Jesse.Single,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: let's catch up to Katie who has thousands of followers.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: When you post a...
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: People are going to love your pics.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that you are great at is photographing.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a real talent of yours.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was actually DMing with a listener.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Not in that way.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: Never do that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Apparently not.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: About how everyone makes fun of me.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Was she 17?
• 12:49
  um she oh shit can i not do that um no what i was gonna say is
• 12:54
  when you post to
• 12:55
  okay first of all i still haven't gotten posts versus reels
• 12:58
  versus stories straight
• 12:59
  but if you just like the if i just post an ephemeral photo
• 13:03
  that's a story right yes
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: now i've noticed when i do that i get feedback along the lines of
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: Jesse, you're not good at Instagram.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: So why is that?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe because you're not good at Instagram.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's just like wild.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: Well, no, but what's like, they weren't bad photos.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: What's the problem with like posting a photo?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: They were probably bad photos.
• 13:25
  No,
• 13:25
  it was a beautiful Cape Cod scene of like a bench and then some
• 13:28
  water and shit.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to tell you.
• 13:29
  I mean,
• 13:29
  it's hard to post a bad photo of a sunset,
• 13:31
  but if anyone can do it,
• 13:33
  it's you.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen your food pics.
• 13:34
  There is this weird thing that I was not used to from other
• 13:37
  social media platforms
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: because I've turned off my DMs on the others.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: When someone responds to your story...
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: It comes in as a DM and it's like a little bit weird.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: Suddenly,
• 13:50
  like it's like it seems like more personal because it's like
• 13:52
  someone you don't know
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: DMing you.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's not their fault.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's not.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: And like there's nothing wrong with it, but it does.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Instagram seems a little bit different on the DM front.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is a little bit different because that's a good point,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: because on Instagram,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: it's like doesn't come in.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't come in as a comment that is public.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It comes in privately.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't really check it.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: So if I don't respond to your thing,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: it's because either you are over 17,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: meaning I have no interest in interacting with you,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: or I just didn't see it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: So apologies.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 14:23
  so this person on Reddit also mentions racism and provides this
• 14:27
  clip of evidence of
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Ed's racism.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is him speaking.
• 14:31
  This is the person we were just talking about who said that Ed
• 14:33
  should hire a sex worker,
• 14:34
  right?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a clip of Ed Piskor talking on some interview,
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: and the title for the video is Culture Vulture Ed Piskor,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: aka Eddie P,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: admits to racial caricatures in Hip Hop Family Tree.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Let's listen to that.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was desperately trying to get Russell Simmons.
• 14:50
  I was cutting promos and I was making his eyes even more
• 14:54
  walleye and making that
• 14:55
  gap in his tooth even further apart because I knew that if that
• 15:00
  dude would talk
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: about it,
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: if that dude would say something about it,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: it would just drive...
• 15:04
  traffic straight to the comic okay so he's saying he tried to
• 15:08
  make the images
• 15:08
  intentionally provocative to get like richard uh i almost said
• 15:13
  richard simmons not
• 15:14
  him richard simmons to know to notice yes so that was so that
• 15:18
  was the evidence of
• 15:19
  his racism so jesse after seeing the evidence we've seen the
• 15:22
  dms we've seen this
• 15:23
  video what's your initial kind of barely informed impression of
• 15:28
  of ed pisker what's
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: the verdict
• 15:30
  I have yet to see the screenshots we saw of him interacting
• 15:35
  with a high schooler.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think a super great rule,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: if you're not a high schooler,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: is to not DM with high schoolers under any circumstance.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Although I can see if someone's like, I like your work, blah, blah, blah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then really leave it at that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you interact with sources who are under 18?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I assume you do.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's tricky.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes it really depends.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: You naughty detransitioner.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, in situations like that, it really depends.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: I would not just talk to...
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: What I'll often do...
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: this doesn't come up that much,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: but if I'm talking like,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: yeah,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: a detransitioner or a trans kid talking about their treatment,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: I might be like...
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm interested in interviewing you,
• 16:16
  but I would want to get your parents' permission and we'll
• 16:19
  record it and I'll give
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: them a copy.
• 16:21
  Just like total basically ass covering that was just a normal
• 16:24
  interview because
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: anything involving minors is so fraught.
• 16:26
  I haven't really dealt with situations like you're interviewing
• 16:31
  like a 15-year-old runaway.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Have you dealt with like more fraught minor situations?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I've ever talked to anyone under the age of 30.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's a good setting.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: But my point is, the initial accuser said he did this and did that.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: The actual screenshot she showed,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: or at least the ones you showed me,
• 16:50
  didn't seem to include the most damning things like inviting
• 16:53
  her to visit him.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I always get just because going into one of these controversies,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: blonde,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: you don't know what's going to turn out to be true.
• 16:59
  I'm very sensitive to the fact that like if something as
• 17:03
  straightforward as he
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: invited me to visit him happened,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: she would probably have that receipt as it were.
• 17:09
  But I would say I find him guilty of at best poor judgment and
• 17:15
  possibly creepiness,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: racism thing.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, I don't know.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever, man.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: So what happened?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Were there consequences?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Was it consequence culture or cancel culture?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:23
  So there was supposed to be an exhibit of hip hop family tree
• 17:26
  at a gallery or
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: museum in Pittsburgh.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: This was through a citywide program, the Pittsburgh Cultural Trust.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Pittsburgh's hometown.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: They canceled that in a statement to City Paper.
• 17:35
  They said the trust takes the allegations very seriously and
• 17:37
  has decided to
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: postpone the exhibition indefinitely.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: I like that instead of cancel.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: Can I just say when people say they take the allegations very seriously,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like they often don't because if you took it seriously,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: you would at least try to like,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: for example,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: you could reach out to the victim and be like,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: can we see the screenshots?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: Can we ask you a few questions about this?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that often doesn't happen.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: An actual investigation.
• 17:59
  I mean,
• 17:59
  it's weird because you're not the cops,
• 18:01
  but you could ask and try to find out more.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would assume that every museum has a security guard.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: What else are they doing?
• 18:09
  We need you to fly out to this 21-year-old girl's house and ask
• 18:14
  her some questions.
• 18:14
  It would be better to catch her off guard and maybe just show
• 18:17
  up at night.
• 18:17
  so the local tv news did a segment on this as well and they
• 18:21
  went to his house and
• 18:22
  he didn't answer so they actually went to his dad's house after
• 18:24
  that that strikes
• 18:25
  me as unnecessary i mean i guess if you're a journalist people
• 18:30
  off like sometimes
• 18:31
  have acted like it's creepy for journalists to knock on doors
• 18:33
  when that's like what
• 18:34
  we do uh i guess maybe if yeah it's so it's like so out of i
• 18:39
  mean we're talking
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: about a like a population now that is scared to talk on the phone
• 18:42
  like half of americans cannot pick up a phone to to order a
• 18:45
  pizza so i think having
• 18:47
  someone actually knock on your door does come across as bizarre
• 18:51
  in a way that it
• 18:52
  wouldn't have 20 years ago sure you'd be like who docks me but
• 18:55
  it's like i got your
• 18:56
  address from the phone book anyway sorry yeah trying to
• 18:58
  interview his i'm guessing
• 18:59
  70 or 80 something parents about the allegations well it's
• 19:03
  pittsburgh so they're
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: young parents probably and they're probably um brother sister too um
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's an unnecessary shot in Pittsburgh,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: which the one time I went there,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: I actually liked a great deal.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't know.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: So one other thing about the video.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: So they neglected to blur out the guy's house number.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is very clearly visible on the local news.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to figure out where Ed Piskar's dad lives, not hard to do.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's not great.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So Fantagraphics, that's the publisher he worked with.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually based in Seattle.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: They also made a statement saying they had,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: no future projects in the works with Ed Piskor.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Jim Rugg,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: his partner on the YouTube channel,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: he took down the cartoonist K.
• 19:42
  Fobby Twitter account and announced that he was no longer going
• 19:45
  to work with Ed.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that post is now deleted.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it said this is on Instagram.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: In light of this past week's shocking revelations,
• 19:53
  I find it necessary to reevaluate my professional associations
• 19:56
  to ensure they align
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: with my values of respect and integrity.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, I have ended my working relationship with Ed Pisker.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Don't cut it off.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: He then says,
• 20:05
  I have looked into this super carefully and fact-checked every
• 20:08
  aspect of it,
• 20:08
  and I'm not just seeking to cover my own ass by responding
• 20:11
  instantly to an ongoing
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: conversation.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wait, he didn't say anything.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, he did not.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is... You've been accused of some stuff.
• 20:16
  Should I end our professional relationship over the many
• 20:19
  allegations of you?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: What are they?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: That you sue everybody?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: These are now a decade old.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that's the most recent one.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: And that was endorsed by...
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: A former colleague of mine,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: not endorsed,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: but like he said,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: he said publicly,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: this is a journalist like,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was against calling single a pedophile,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: but it does appear to be driving him off of blue skies.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: So who knows?
• 20:44
  And it's just like just a journalist publicly saying that it's
• 20:48
  OK to make shit up about people.
• 20:49
  Yeah,
• 20:50
  you should have cut ties with me a long time ago for various
• 20:52
  reasons.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I might now.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so people were pretty quick to cancel Ed Pisker.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can see that on Reddit, in the various comics Reddit.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So someone posted Jem's statement in the comic book subreddit,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: and a few people tried to defend Ed,
• 21:04
  but the overwhelming feeling in the online comics community was
• 21:07
  anti-Pisker.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So all this happened the last week of March 2024.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: On April 1st, Ed Pisker killed himself.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Fuck it.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: That's wait.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: And now I remember that you mentioned that up top.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: I shouldn't have made any jokes about this.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: I apologize.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I assume this was, we think this was related.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:23
  So we've done a number of stories about suicides and we've
• 21:26
  often said that it's
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: irresponsible to blame any one thing on suicide.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's complex.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's usually an array of contributing factors, you know,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: pre-existing conditions,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: lack of social support,
• 21:36
  and then you add in stressors like a breakup or a job loss or
• 21:38
  public shaming or
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes suicide is just an impulse.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so often survivors and outsiders are left wondering why.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: But Ed Pisker made it clear.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, he posted his suicide note on Facebook.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesse,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: this might be against responsible reporting guidelines,
• 21:53
  but we're going to read it because it directly addresses the
• 21:55
  allegations against
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: them.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So no one kill yourself after listening to this.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Jesse, please read.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: OK, I'll read this.
• 22:01
  I guess what I want to make sure we're clear about is like
• 22:04
  there have been cases
• 22:05
  where trans activists have posted the suicide notes of trans
• 22:11
  teenagers who have
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: killed themselves.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: And how is this?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Is this different?
• 22:16
  Like,
• 22:16
  is it different because it bears on the factual questions and
• 22:18
  he talks about that?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Is that your argument?
• 22:20
  This is his response to allegations that he was grooming these
• 22:25
  17 year olds.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to hear in his own words that
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: his take on this.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: We can't call him up and ask him about it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: He's dead.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: But we do have his final words.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm telling people don't kill yourself after you hear this.
• 22:36
  But I genuinely think that our audience is old enough and
• 22:40
  sophisticated enough that
• 22:40
  we're not going to spark a fucking suicide contagion by reading
• 22:44
  a publicly posted
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: final words from a man who was accused of something.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: He says, I'm so sorry for being so stupid.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: I definitely should never have talked with Molly D.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: The language and optics look real dumb at best,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: but I promise my innocence,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: especially out of context,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: it looks terrible.
• 22:59
  It was the height of COVID with no end in sight,
• 23:01
  and I was alone through most of it.
• 23:02
  I was just happy to have the internet to talk to people with
• 23:05
  common interests.
• 23:06
  The way that I noticed her was when she would like a bunch of
• 23:08
  my pictures at once.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't trolling Instagram randomly,
• 23:10
  but I definitely shouldn't have chatted with her when I found
• 23:12
  out how young she
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: was.
• 23:13
  Seeing someone younger representing Arkham and Gigi Allen gave
• 23:16
  me hope for the next
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: generations and made me curious.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Curiosity killed the cartoonist.
• 23:21
  There was no way I'd have a 17-year-old stay at my place,
• 23:24
  maybe not 18 even.
• 23:25
  I was forward projecting to some unknown future where COVID
• 23:28
  lockdowns were finished
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: and we could see people again.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't even with sex in mind,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: but simply saying that there's a bed here to crash,
• 23:35
  like the kindness that was given to me a bunch of times when I
• 23:37
  was starting out.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: Quote, zine fair in town, come crash, end quote.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry.
• 24:07
  We're all in the art game,
• 24:08
  so why not introduce a new friend to old friends?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: When I was bringing up any professional stuff to anybody,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: it was just common ground conversation.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm fine with us having read that because it is his side of the story,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: which otherwise would get untold,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: and he posted it publicly.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: I just would say, like...
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: this whole thing is horrible.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: it's not as though his side is necessarily true,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: especially if he's writing it in a moment of,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: of great anguish.
• 24:32
  Um,
• 24:33
  and,
• 24:33
  and you had remind us what the other allegations from these two
• 24:36
  other people were.
• 24:37
  So Molly Wright said on Instagram that he asked her for oral
• 24:40
  sex in exchange from
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: his,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: for his agent's phone number.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then Tefeta Darling,
• 24:45
  she said that he asked her to come back to his house and let
• 24:48
  him draw her nude.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:50
  So this next thing I'm going to read,
• 24:51
  this is still from the suicide post.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: Molly Wright is a conundrum to me and her actions border criminal.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: He said she said never looks good, but none of what she said happened.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't believe she'd be so malicious and pile on like this.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: Now that I'm officially checked out,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think my family has a civil lawsuit and she should be held accountable.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: She pushed this over the edge into multiple women territory.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's so corny.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: I absolutely never asked anyone...
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: I absolutely never asked for a blowjob in trade or anything ever.
• 25:19
  She successfully made me look stupid and everybody accepted her
• 25:22
  word as fact.
• 25:23
  Citizens of the internet are playing such dangerous games with
• 25:25
  people's lives.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: I never had anyone lined up for an open relationship with her.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: I never was interested in a relationship with her.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: We had sex twice and she initiated both times.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: The first time was a surprise.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: When we were done watching a movie or just hanging out,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: I don't exactly remember the circumstances four years ago,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: she jumped on me and started kissing me,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: telling me how comfy I made her feel.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: We quit hanging out during COVID lockdown,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_03: but kept in touch here and there,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: and I thought things ended naturally.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Dot, dot, dot.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: My house was burning, and she threw gasoline on it.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: There needs to be recourse for my loved ones.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm dead.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have a reason to lie.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: Hold Molly Wright accountable, please.
• 25:58
  Reputation destruction is our form of aggression,
• 26:00
  and there were very real consequences.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, God.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: My lawyer is Harris Miller.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Is it possible to subpoena all texts and DMs I had with her?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: This is so dark because he's now...
• 26:11
  it's horrible he's dead he's killing himself um but he's now
• 26:15
  he's now lighting
• 26:16
  another fire on this other person on someone on his accuser
• 26:19
  yeah um okay and and
• 26:22
  this is what he said about tafeta darling again so this is the
• 26:24
  woman he who said
• 26:26
  that he asked to draw her nude he said about her big titty taff
• 26:30
  yeah i would draw
• 26:30
  you naked every day and never apologize for wanting to i like
• 26:33
  drawing tits and
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: tattoos when i'm not drawing comics so
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that one, guilty as charged.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jesse,
• 26:38
  so do you want to revise your earlier opinion on Ed Piskor now
• 26:41
  that you've heard
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: his side of the story?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know what's true.
• 26:46
  It certainly slots into a pattern we've heard before of people
• 26:49
  leaking DMs in a way
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: that doesn't give us full context.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the main thing is here is he's dead.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now...
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: the combination of this is my suicide note,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: here's the legal action I hope people take,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: it's just like a...
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pretty awful way to go out.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: I feel the worst for him,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: but he's like...
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: He is,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: maybe for understandable reasons,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: seeking to enact vengeance from beyond the grave.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no way that was going to go well.
• 27:21
  You can't say of a person who killed themselves,
• 27:23
  well,
• 27:23
  I wish they hadn't killed themselves.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: I wish they'd done this or that instead.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: But like...
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: The fact of the matter is he could have sought legal action.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: He could have called up his lawyer.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is so sad and ugly for all involved, obviously for him most of all.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I was murdered by internet bullies, massive amounts of them.
• 27:39
  Some of you out there absolutely contributed to my death as you
• 27:42
  were entertaining
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: yourself with gossip.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't AI.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was a human being.
• 27:46
  You chipped little bits of my self-esteem away all week until I
• 27:49
  was vaporized.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'll be able to haunt you dorks as a ghost.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I come from gypsy heritage and I'm definitely cursing a lot of you.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: So how did this, how did people respond to this?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: This shifted the discourse immediately.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: So Ed was no longer seen as a groomer.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: He was seen as a mentor, just someone trying to help younger artists.
• 28:05
  I was actually surprised that his reputation was rehabbed as
• 28:08
  quickly as it was,
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: but it was like immediately all of a sudden things changed.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's so fucking dark.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: So all you have to do if people are mad at you online.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Kill yourself.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Post the note.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: Goddamn.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then his former partner, Jim Rugg.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: He was mentioned in The Suicide as well.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Pisker wrote, now it's all gone.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Art show evaporated.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Was about to sign a $75,000 deal for Switchblade Shorties with Abrams.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Cartoonist K-Fabi ends with Jim's shocking revelation statements.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Those words hurt.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have no friends in this life any longer.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the shocking revelations.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's a reference to Jim Rugg's public statement.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then Pisker wrote this in the note.
• 28:42
  Some good people reached out and tried to help me through this
• 28:44
  whole thing,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm just not strong enough.
• 28:46
  The instinctual part of my brain knows that I'm no longer part
• 28:48
  of the tribe.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm exiled and banished.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm giving in to my instincts and fighting them at the same time.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Self-preservation has lost out.
• 28:56
  From the sound in everybody's voices,
• 28:58
  I think we all knew this was the conclusion.
• 29:00
  Jim Rock came to my house unsolicited and gave me a hug and
• 29:03
  told me he loves me.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you know Jimmy, you know how huge that is.
• 29:06
  So publicly rug disavowed him,
• 29:08
  but privately he was supportive to some degree.
• 29:11
  I've assumed that you've had this experience,
• 29:13
  Jesse,
• 29:14
  private support,
• 29:14
  public disability.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: What a fucking, what a fucking snake.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like good, good job giving him a hug, but not saying a word.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, um,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my God.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I guess he's not a snake.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: I guess at least he gave him a hug.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: But this happens constantly.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_03: The number of people who DM during the Troubles,
• 29:34
  and I'm sure our Irish listeners will not be mad about us
• 29:37
  calling online drama the
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: Troubles,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: the number of people who told us they were effectively on our side,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: including in some cases pretty famous people,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: but...
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: I guess silence is one thing,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: unless you think silence is complicity,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: is violence is death.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: But there was at least a lot of private support, public silence.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, this is the worst.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: Which I don't fully blame people for that.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't fully blame them.
• 30:02
  They don't want to lose their jobs when these fucking psychos
• 30:04
  are running around.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: But this is different.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is a public disavowal and private support.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's fucked up on a whole different level.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: So after his death,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't find any public statement from Rugg,
• 30:15
  although I might just have missed it because if it was on
• 30:18
  Instagram stories,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: it auto deletes.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I did reach out to him and didn't hear back.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: But in his suicide note,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Ed asked Jim Rugg to put the episodes of K-Fabi,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: of cartoonist K-Fabi that they'd shot but not yet released online.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And Jim did do that.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: He also said in the letter that one of his projects,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: so this was Switchblade Shorties,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: that this was complete.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: And he said,
• 30:37
  please download it and maybe a book deal can be made from his
• 30:40
  heirs and his family.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I reached out to the family.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't hear back.
• 30:43
  So I don't know if they did get a book deal,
• 30:45
  but they are releasing the series on their own.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: So they did a sort of Kickstarter type thing.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Their initial goal was to raise $10,000 for production costs.
• 30:54
  They raised almost $90,000 and they're hosting a small
• 30:57
  convention as a tribute to
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ed in September.
• 31:00
  And it's hard to overstate how big a deal Ed's death was in the
• 31:03
  comics world.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a listener who's part of this world.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Tom McLean, and he's a journalist himself.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: He covered the comic book business for Variety.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And he said,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: when the allegations first hit,
• 31:14
  people who had always been big fans of Ed's work were dumping
• 31:16
  their copies of his
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: comics in the trash or giving them away for nothing.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And indie comics is such a small market.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Any kind of setback would have been financially devastating for Ed.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: This is very this is very dark.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'm struck by here is just how unnecessary this all was.
• 31:29
  And I wonder if Ed hadn't killed himself,
• 31:31
  if he had just posted his defense.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I find that I mean,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: we don't know if it's true,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: but I do find his his side of the story pretty compelling.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like the naughty girl thing.
• 31:40
  If someone tells you some some like misdemeanor act that that
• 31:44
  they've done and you
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: naughty girl,
• 31:46
  that's very different from response to a like sexy photo or
• 31:49
  something like that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: And unless there's more,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: like the screenshot you shared with me,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: it's at the very top,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: so you can't even see what preceded it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 31:56
  Naughty Girl,
• 31:56
  that's my favorite,
• 31:57
  without any context of what the favorite is.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: Look,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: it was a huge error of judgment to,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: even just in terms of covering your ass,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: to tweet with a 17-year-old girl.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: But I can also,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: hearing his explanations,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: I can squint and make it out,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: how during COVID,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: someone likes all your work.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was a mistake,
• 32:20
  but obviously it's not a mistake that on its own would warrant
• 32:24
  any sort of major
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: punishment without knowing more about what he did.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then the other stuff is just not in that.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, it's fucking dark.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not really a death penalty offense.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's our first dark story for the day.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do housekeeping.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Can you do it?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm glad.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: That was dark enough for both, but if we have to.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Wait till you get to the next one.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is Blocked and Reported.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is a podcast, usually a little bit more lighthearted than this.
• 32:48
  The best way to support us is to go to blockedandreported.org
• 32:51
  and become a premium subscriber.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Not only do you gain access to...
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: We'll send you creepy DMs for one thing.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's a promise.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then also,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 33:04
  Katie's got some skeletons in her closet on that front that
• 33:07
  we'll get to at a later
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: date.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: You get extra content.
• 33:10
  You get access to a weekly comments thread that routinely is
• 33:13
  like over 2,000
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: comments,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: just a vibrant discussion.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: You get access to a chat.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: You get access to premium in-person hangouts,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: including one happening Wednesday,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_03: August 20th in Boston.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're not a primo, you can't come.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: So there.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: So you should become a primo.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're a crazy person, don't become a primo just to come.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'll check.
• 33:32
  And then Katie,
• 33:33
  we also are,
• 33:34
  are we ready to announce our next online hangout?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to do this on August 27th.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: We will send out an email with details.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is also just for primos.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: These are ask me anything style.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have questions for us, that's now the time to ask.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, yeah.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't remember if I mentioned yet,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: but block to imported podcast at gmail.com for,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: tips,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_03: DMS and,
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: uh,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: all your other email needs.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, Apple podcast rate and review us please.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Jesse.
• 34:04
  So continuing with the theme,
• 34:05
  our next story is about a tragedy in the animal rescue world.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know the name Michaela rains?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: I do not.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Michaela Raines was a 30-year-old animal lover who founded Save a Fox.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: This is an animal rescue organization she founded in 2017,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: and she posted regularly about her activities on social media.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: So her YouTube channel was a huge success, over 2 million subscribers.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the content is just cute fox videos.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't really translate to a podcast.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine some cute foxes frolicking with each other.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it is.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: That translates.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking about that now.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: She's also got cats and some more exotic animals living with her.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So skunks, chinchillas, ferrets, an array of reptiles.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: But foxes were her favorite.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And after watching a number of her videos, I can see why.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: They sit, they eat, they come, they eat treats out of her hand.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And she obviously just... They come?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: You have to ruin it, don't you?
• 34:54
  you didn't have to phrase it like that sit stay calm they eat
• 34:57
  they all right that's
• 34:58
  what have you ever had a fucking animal before i've i've taught
• 35:01
  my i've taught my
• 35:02
  dog to do three things of course i've had an animal katie just
• 35:06
  this you don't need
• 35:06
  to make this about you and moose okay come on so she obviously
• 35:09
  loves these animals
• 35:10
  okay wait so why is she taking in foxes foxes are wild yes
• 35:14
  they're wild and free
• 35:15
  right yes they are wild i saw a dead one by the the other day
• 35:18
  by the way and that's
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: what made me realize the universe is unfair
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why she needs to rescue them just from traffic.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're generally perfectly capable of living on their own.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: But Michaela, she took in foxes from three sources.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: So first, fur farms.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Fur farming is illegal in most of Europe now,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: and it's dwindling in the U.S.,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: but there are still fur farms.
• 35:38
  And since fur farms are not illegal,
• 35:40
  rescuing foxes from them is complicated.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to get to that later.
• 35:44
  Second,
• 35:45
  she took in pet foxes that people found themselves unable to
• 35:48
  deal with.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this is pretty common.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Someone gets a fox.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: They realize it's not actually a dog.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a fox.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be incredibly destructive.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: They need a ton of space.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like this isn't the kind of pet you want to keep in an apartment.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: So then they dump them or surrender them.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then third, she rescued foxes that were seized by the authorities.
• 36:04
  And I'm not talking about wild foxes that were caught
• 36:06
  shoplifting or whatever,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: but foxes that were essentially bred in captivity.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that was one of Michaela's rules.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: She only rescued captive-born foxes, not wild foxes.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the goal wasn't to release them back into the wild.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't really work with captive-born foxes.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: The goal was to give them a good life at her sanctuary,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: which was also her house,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: and to make content to support the organization.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And many of Michaela's clips were vital.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: So there was this one story, there was like a queer love interest story.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: So she had two female foxes that were very close, very good friends.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: They loved to frisk with each other, gossip about their exes.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: They were also black.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this became a whole thing on the internet.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesse, click that link there in our notes.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: Lesbian goth foxes, the story of Esme and Mala.
• 36:48
  These are striking black foxes,
• 36:50
  but why bring your own weird shit into it?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: Esme and Mala are inseparable,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: says Michaela Raines,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: a founder of Save a Fox Rescue in Faribault,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Minnesota.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Taking the internet by storm,
• 36:59
  the two black and white bonded female foxes have been dubbed
• 37:02
  the lesbian goth
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: foxes.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: They happen to bond with each other,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: which is super rare for two unrelated female foxes to do,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Raines said.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: All right, keep going.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, that's cool.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Keep going.
• 37:10
  Esme and Mala have even inspired fan art and become a staple of
• 37:13
  the internet queer community.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, here's the bar pod connection.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Someone named Spincess says happy pride to the goth lesbian foxes.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then describe the art.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like a cartoon.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's fucking furry art.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's furry art.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's basically furry art, yeah.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Can a fox be a furry?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_03: If a fox could dress up as another animal and be a furry.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: A fox could dress up as a fox, as a furry fox.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: The sanctuary was very loved, very popular.
• 37:35
  It got a lot of attention and it was even featured in National
• 37:38
  Geographic,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: still one of the biggest names in nature media.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: But sadly, Michaela Raines killed herself on June 20th of this year.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: Why?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:46
  So shortly after her death,
• 37:47
  her husband,
• 37:48
  his name is Ethan Frankkamp,
• 37:50
  he posted a video online.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Ethan and Michaela met through the sanctuary.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And as their relationship became serious, he started running it with her.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: They also had a young daughter together.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the video is extremely hard to watch.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's just very, very sad.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: He is completely bereft.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: He clearly loved his wife very much.
• 38:06
  And a lot of it is him crying and talking about how wonderful
• 38:09
  his wife was.
• 38:11
  He said she saved thousands of animals and just worked
• 38:13
  tirelessly to make this sanctuary.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: But he also said that she struggled.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: He said she had autism, depression, borderline personality disorder.
• 38:22
  And he said she was in and out of therapies and on various
• 38:24
  meds,
• 38:25
  but nothing seemed to help.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then he said this.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to talk about how words,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: whether spoken in person or written online,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: can affect someone.
• 38:39
  For a few years,
• 38:39
  a group of people had been throwing dirt on Michaela's name and
• 38:43
  the rescue.
• 38:45
  Most of these are people she knew,
• 38:47
  and some of them are other animal sanctuaries.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: They consistently spread ridiculous claims and rumors,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: and being the sensitive human that she was,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Michaela took it all to heart.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it hurt her.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: It hurt her a lot.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: But she pushed through for years.
• 39:07
  She pushed through the pain of people trying to bring her down
• 39:11
  and the mental
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: challenges she faced.
• 39:13
  And she still rescued hundreds of animals and changed the lives
• 39:16
  of so many.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: But recently,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: more of the rude words,
• 39:21
  accusations and name calling came from some of those she
• 39:23
  considered close friends.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of this stems from jealousy and envy.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: But she felt as if the entire world had turned against her.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So the news of Michaela's suicide sent shockwaves around the internet.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Even the New York Times covered it.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: when a public figure takes their own life,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: the question on people's lips is usually why,
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: but because of her husband's
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: video, that wasn't the case with Michaela Raines.
• 39:49
  And most people felt confident that they knew the answer
• 39:52
  because her husband said it.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: He said this was cyberbullying.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: OK, so it's cyberbullying from who and why?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the question.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And as you will hear,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: one person,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: excuse me,
• 40:01
  one furry in particular was pinpointed as the bully who drove
• 40:05
  this woman to
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: suicide.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is, of course, more complicated.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So Michaela had a lot of followers,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: over 3 million on TikTok,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: over 2 million on YouTube,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: over 600,000 on Instagram.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And with that many followers,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: anyone with that many followers is just going to get,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to get some trolls,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to get some haters.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: There were also posts on KiwiFarms about her and a subreddit.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: The subreddit is now gone.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: It was called Save a Fox Snark, where people made fun of her.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Jesse,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: we've talked a bit about snark communities in the past,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: but just as a reminder,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: what are those?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 40:34
  it's just sort of haters gather together to make fun of someone
• 40:37
  and they often,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: they can get increasingly out of hand and they're very mean.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's sort of the point.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so snarkers are basically anti-fans.
• 40:45
  Sometimes they start out as fans whose admiration curdles for
• 40:48
  whatever reason.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they've always been haters.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: But often they have the same level of obsessive devotion as real fans.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And snark subreddits have become very common, very popular.
• 40:59
  And some are dedicated to traditional celebrities like Ariana
• 41:01
  Grande,
• 41:02
  Hailey Bieber.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: But an increasing number focuses on influencers.
• 41:07
  And if you're wondering what makes something a snark page
• 41:09
  versus any other form,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's gender.
• 41:12
  Like the term snark seems to be used when the trolling and the
• 41:15
  criticism are coming from women.
• 41:17
  And there are exceptions,
• 41:18
  of course,
• 41:18
  but snark subreddits tend to attract mostly women.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: The targets are usually also women.
• 41:24
  And anyone who has been a preteen girl knows just how vicious
• 41:27
  women can be to each other.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the internet has provided space for that to play out online, right?
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's become a place to bully people in the company of friends.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the same forces that bring fandoms together,
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: the emotional investment,
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: the social cohesion,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: the sense of belonging,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: all of that exists and anti fandoms too.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: I like Kiwi farm threads.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_03: There is a level of parasocial connection to these people.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: They hate that is really is a mirror image of a fandom in certain ways.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 42:00
  So to understand what Reigns was accused of,
• 42:02
  we need to go back to the concept of fur farms.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: So as I mentioned a little while ago, fur farms are legal in the U.S.
• 42:08
  And that means that even if you think fur farming is unethical
• 42:12
  or immoral,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: which I do,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: I only think ugly animals should be made into coats,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: you can't just roll up to a farm and take away the foxes.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: That would be theft.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So generally, sanctuaries that rescue
• 42:23
  foxes from fur farms,
• 42:25
  they have ongoing relationships with farmers themselves.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: So in some cases,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: the fur farmers may surrender unwanted foxes,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: but at other times,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: rescues like Save a Fox actually buy foxes from the farms.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: So in one case in 2023,
• 42:40
  Michaela created a GoFundMe campaign that raised $700,000 to
• 42:44
  buy 500 foxes from a
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: farmer who had decided to retire.
• 42:47
  And the money was used to build a sanctuary in Tennessee and to
• 42:50
  house 300 foxes and
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: then adopt out the other 200 to license rescues.
• 42:54
  So on the one hand,
• 42:55
  that's 500 foxes that are not going to be killed for their fur.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: On the other, that's $700,000 in the pocket of a fur farmer.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a fairly sticky ethical dilemma.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also, by the way, an issue with dog rescues, too.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like the word rescue, I think, is a bit of a misnomer.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: I read about this a few years ago in a book called Dog.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was called Dogland.
• 43:15
  This is this investigative journalist goes to these animal
• 43:17
  auctions and sees
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: rescuers buying puppies from commercial breeders.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the issue is like, yeah, on the one hand, you are saving dogs.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, you are directly incentivized.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: You are supporting the market.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 43:29
  there are street dogs that are basically kidnapped like in
• 43:32
  Mexico that are
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: basically kidnapped and sent to live with families in the suburb.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're given toys and beds and food and pets.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of rescues are straight up bought from puppy mills.
• 43:41
  And the only difference between getting it directly from a
• 43:44
  puppy mill is the
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: middleman who calls herself a rescuer.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: And most of these people are women.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: They're mostly women just because women care more about living things.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: Women be caring.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: So these are complicated ethical questions.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote a bit about this in my blockbuster newsletter, Moose Nuggets.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to know more, I'll put a link in the show notes.
• 44:03
  But that was one of Michaela's perceived crimes to these
• 44:06
  snarkers taking part in
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: that economy at all.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there was also a matter of funding.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: So again, she did a GoFundMe for $700,000 to rescue these 500 foxes.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: But anytime there's a large crowdfunding campaign,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: people are going to ask questions about the money.
• 44:20
  So some people accused Ethan,
• 44:22
  Michaela's husband,
• 44:23
  of driving a $400,000 car.
• 44:26
  There were also leaks from people who were allegedly involved
• 44:29
  with the charity saying that
• 44:32
  Mikayla took a big salary while sanctuary workers made low
• 44:35
  hourly wages and that
• 44:37
  their earnings were topped off with donations of cat food for
• 44:40
  their own pets.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: I looked at their 990s.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: The organization was bringing in over a million dollars a year.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: She was paying herself $85,000 a year.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: $85,000 is a good salary.
• 44:51
  It is way under market for the head of an organization with
• 44:54
  that sort of revenue.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: it is a good salary,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_03: but you're not getting,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: in most contexts,
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_03: getting rich of $85,000 a year.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: This is much more than a full-time job as well.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: She lived in the sanctuary with these animals.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 45:08
  if they had used half of their annual revenue to buy a car for
• 45:11
  her husband,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: that's clearly bad.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I saw no evidence of this.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: The 990s looked totally clean.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: But probably the worst rumors was that Michaela was abusing animals.
• 45:20
  So there was a report of a fox being left outside in the yard
• 45:22
  and dying of heat stroke.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: There were photos of a dead fox kept in a freezer.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: There has been a fucking...
• 45:29
  hedgehog in my freezer for like five years that doesn't mean
• 45:32
  you abuse it uh that
• 45:34
  could be just as a way to preserve the fucking thing until your
• 45:36
  wife figures out
• 45:37
  how she's gonna deal with it wait you have a hedgehog in your
• 45:39
  freezer or this was
• 45:40
  hypothetical no it's been there forever which i forgot about
• 45:42
  until i went to get
• 45:43
  some ice cream and i stabbed myself with a fucking hedgehog
• 45:45
  quill you're supposed
• 45:46
  to put it in a paper a paper bag that says do not eat janet
• 45:49
  please take care of the
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: hedgehog like from arrested vomit that's a joke that one's over my head
• 45:52
  And a lot of this was posted on these sort of outside forums
• 45:55
  like Tumblr or
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: KiwiFarms,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: but we never found any evidence that people were...
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: doing this sort of very personal,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: aggressive trolling in the comments section of Michaela's videos.
• 46:07
  And one thing you have to realize about these SNARK communities
• 46:09
  is that you have to
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: kind of go looking for them.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this isn't like Twitter or YouTube or your own Instagram,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: where people in your feed are telling you to do the right thing,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: kill yourself.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: You have to seek it out.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the comments section on your own page.
• 46:24
  And it is true that these snarkers are very dedicated,
• 46:27
  or some of them are.
• 46:28
  They can be super obsessive and really put a lot of work into
• 46:31
  their doing.
• 46:32
  Like someone on Tumblr made a spreadsheet listing all the
• 46:35
  animals that Michaela was
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: known to have owned,
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: including how she acquired them,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: how much she paid for them,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: and how they died if they were dead.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there was this degree of obsession.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is hard to do,
• 46:45
  but the worst thing you can do for your own mental health is go
• 46:49
  to places where
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: people do not like you and look up what they are saying about you.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I used to really like reading your thread on Kiwi Farms,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: Jesse,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: because they have such creative ways of calling you a Jew.
• 47:00
  But then they started saying that I have holes in my brain from
• 47:02
  all the weed and I
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: just had to stop reading it,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: which is very unfortunate.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's too far.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: It is too far.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 47:09
  But I think the best way to be a person on the internet is just
• 47:11
  to drape yourself
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: in as many layers of protection as possible.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Or you just don't give a fuck about what strangers say about you,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: harder said than done.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if you just you just like never name search,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: never Google yourself,
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: never go to the places where people are being mean to you.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_03: People sometimes email me and be like,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: Did you see what this person said about your 90% of the time?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: And people shouldn't do that.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:37
  There's exceptions if someone's saying actually,
• 47:40
  I don't know,
• 47:42
  actionable,
• 47:42
  defamatory stuff.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, yeah, don't do that.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, once in a while.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is why you have 20 separate lawsuits going on every moment.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_03: The 40, I've sued everybody.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what's important is I have sued them for calling me transphobic.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's the source of the lawsuits.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's hard to resist doing it once in a while.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: But no, I don't I don't make a habit of it at all.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 48:04
  we just like we live in an era where everyday people really are
• 48:08
  getting their 15
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: minutes of fame seems to be an accurate prediction.
• 48:12
  You know,
• 48:12
  nano influencers are being dissected online as if they were
• 48:16
  actual celebrities.
• 48:17
  And I think most of us are just really not cut out for that
• 48:19
  kind of scrutiny.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: But it is just inevitable if you gain any sort of following online.
• 48:25
  Do we have a sense of whether Michaela like was good at not
• 48:28
  reading this stuff?
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if she sought it out.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: I do know that she was aware of it and that it did bother her.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I talked to her mom, Sandy.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was a very sad conversation.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Her mom absolutely devastated, of course.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And Sandy specifically named Reddit and Tumblr.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: She was not aware of Kiwi Farms.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: OK, but she was aware of these other snark communities.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this was a big story.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: And people outside of the forum started blaming these forums.
• 48:54
  So it changed that org petition to shut down the Save a Fox
• 48:57
  snark subreddit,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: got over 20,000 signatures.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it was shut down after her death.
• 49:02
  And articles were published with headlines like they bullied
• 49:04
  her to death and read it.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Let it happen.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a quote from that.
• 49:09
  So the author of this piece is arguing that these subreddits
• 49:11
  shouldn't be allowed to exist.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think about that, Jessie?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_03: No, I mean, that's obviously not feasible.
• 49:41
  I mean,
• 49:41
  I guess if Reddit wants to...
• 49:44
  They did shut down the SabaFox subreddit.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_03: As like a general rule, snark forums will always appear somewhere.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: And to say you're not allowed to make fun of people online, I don't know.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: People sometimes fuzz that up where it's like,
• 50:04
  you know,
• 50:04
  suicide baiting,
• 50:05
  they'll be like,
• 50:05
  oh,
• 50:06
  they were just making fun of them.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: But like, that's different.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: But like this,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 50:10
  I think if people are going to have online platforms and become
• 50:13
  a little bit famous
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: online,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: there's going to be haters.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: And you can't really make rules making that not exist.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to pop up somewhere.
• 50:21
  If it's not a public forum like Reddit or Tumblr or whatever or
• 50:25
  Twitter or
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Facebook,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to happen on Discord.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: People are going to gather together to make fun of other people.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is completely inevitable.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the harm that these forums cause, I don't want to minimize that.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's absolutely...
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: True,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: not just in cases like this,
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: but like we had this,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: we did this story about a van lifer named Brianna Media.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: She went absolutely nuts because of her snark subreddit.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: She started,
• 50:54
  she like figured out who was shit talking her and she started
• 50:57
  doxing the people who
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: were doing it.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ethan Klein, have you been following his arc?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, not great.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: So he's a YouTuber.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: He's a, like, former colleague and friend of Hassan Piker.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: They had a falling out over Gaza.
• 51:10
  Now they're,
• 51:11
  like,
• 51:13
  reenacting the Israel-Palestine conflict from their fucking
• 51:16
  various channels.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: He says that Snarker's report,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 51:20
  filed false reports to Child Protective Services and they came
• 51:24
  to his house.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: I guess he figured out who did this.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's pursuing criminal charges.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: He was also apparently planning a protest outside of Reddit.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: So these do cause real-world harm.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to minimize that at all, but also...
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes they can be good.
• 51:42
  I mean,
• 51:43
  like the story that we just did about,
• 51:45
  what was your boy's name,
• 51:46
  the Ghanaian artist?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, Joseph.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: Just Joseph.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just Joseph.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: So this was an episode that we did for Primos.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: People should go and listen to it if they hadn't.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: This was a guy who was an influencer who was kind of a,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if grifter is the right word,
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: but he was basically manipulating people with these.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: Grifter is in fact the right word.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: He threatened to kill himself if people didn't have dinner with him.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that an accurate retelling of the story?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, no.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 52:13
  You managed to take a story where you could literally just
• 52:16
  describe what happened
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: accurately,
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: and it's very damning.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_03: He said he was going to do assisted suicide, and he appears.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: He says, just listen to the episode.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_03: Become a primo.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 52:25
  A lot of the information from that episode comes from snark
• 52:29
  communities because
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: there's a free preview,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: by the way.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: So you should check it.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: So and like we weren't the only people to cover that story.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: The New York fucking Times did it.
• 52:38
  They also got a lot of their information from snark communities
• 52:41
  because sometimes
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: it's not just shit talking.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like exhaustive.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: private eye sleuthing into figures that oftentimes the mainstream media,
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: even the alternative media,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: just isn't covering.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: But these are people who do have not lots of power,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: but are at least getting lots of attention in some cases,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: getting lots of money.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do think that these communities have some utility,
• 53:03
  but they can become so fucking toxic and they can genuinely
• 53:06
  destroy people's lives.
• 53:07
  Like,
• 53:08
  like not,
• 53:08
  I don't want to minimize that,
• 53:09
  but I also think they're inevitable.
• 53:11
  And I don't think like,
• 53:12
  I don't just don't think it's possible to ban this shit from
• 53:14
  Any belief in free speech,
• 53:17
  you need to grapple with the fact that people can be dicks.
• 53:20
  Anyway,
• 53:20
  after Mikaela died,
• 53:21
  tributes started pouring in from across the internet.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the internet,
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: based on her husband's video,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: started saying that she was cyberbullied to death by Reddit snarkers.
• 53:31
  And there was one Redditor in particular who was seen as the
• 53:34
  big villain here.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that Redditor was named Kazio Lion.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: This person is an animal lover and a furry who posted this in 2020.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: This was posted on r slash animal rescue.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: Jesse, please read this.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_03: PSA, Save a Fox is a hoarder, not a rescue.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_03: Something she has done.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Buying foxes from fur farmers, not actually rescuing them.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_03: Letting a fox die from heat stroke.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: Foxes getting seriously injured on fences and other parts of enclosures.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_03: Paying her staff in cat food and not in money.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_03: Stealing animals.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: Possibly doing drugs.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: Using animals for financial gain.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: Letting the foxes around dogs and bury young children.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: inhumanely keeping animals alive when they have deformities,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: preventing them from not having a good quality of life.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: So she hasn't killed enough foxes.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: Long list there.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:20
  So laundry list of Michaela's alleged crimes,
• 54:22
  but no receipts there,
• 54:23
  which is very much not...
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: what you would expect from a snarker.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Snarkers take pride in their work.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is just shit talking.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: A true snarker would have receipts here.
• 54:32
  But after Mikayla's death,
• 54:34
  the Save a Fox subreddit went private almost immediately.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then a few days later, it was banned by Reddit.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so this meant that people who were looking for Mikayla's cyberbullies
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: congregated on that post by Cassio Lyon.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: And they decided that this was the person who drove Mikayla to death.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to read you just a few tweets about Cassio Lyon.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: These are just the most
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: recent ones when I was searching on Twitter.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Bismillah.
• 54:57
  I hope Kazio Lion got captured by a jihadi group and never to
• 55:00
  be seen again.
• 55:02
  I will never forgive Kazio Lion and his minions for pushing
• 55:05
  Michaela to suicide.
• 55:06
  If you took part in her smear campaigns,
• 55:09
  you deserve every bit of karma coming to you.
• 55:10
  So the pronouns are confusing here because Kazio Lion is a
• 55:14
  female who is a
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: like apparently a trans man.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: One more.
• 55:19
  So after reading up on Michaela Raines and the bullying she
• 55:21
  underwent from that
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: despicable Casio line is absolutely disgusting.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully justice will find them wherever it may be.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this person is like all three fucking pronouns.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Casio line is getting the blame for this.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: This is what they said in response to these allegations.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesse, please read this.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's in our show notes here.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is on the wildlife rehab subreddit.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_03: Several years ago,
• 55:40
  I wrote an informational post explaining why a prominent figure
• 55:43
  in the animal
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: rescue community is not the same people think she is.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now I alone am being blamed for her suicide.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_03: A video dropped today announcing Michaela Raines of Saba Fox's death.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Ever since, my notifications have been overflowing by her meat riders.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: People have obsessively brigaded my posts and comments on various subs.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: You people are calling me slurs,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: threatening to dox me,
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_03: and telling me to kill myself as well,
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_03: and somehow you're the good guys.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_03: I bet if I were to actually kill myself, you would be very quiet.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: So Casio also says that they don't feel guilty.
• 56:12
  They are,
• 56:12
  quote,
• 56:12
  proud of the fact that I was able to raise awareness of her
• 56:15
  wrongdoings.
• 56:15
  What I'm not proud of is the fact that people took her death as
• 56:17
  an invitation to
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: hold me personally responsible.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: They also say they're autistic.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody involved in this is autistic.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: As you can imagine, though, this didn't go down well.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: Casio Lyon, however, doubled down.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: They posted another statement on the Fur Affinity website.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: That is, yes, a furry website.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not backing down.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: Fuck off.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: By June 24th,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: so this is just four days after Michaela's death,
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: Casio had been fully doxed on multiple websites.
• 56:44
  Their info was shared on 4chan,
• 56:46
  Twitter,
• 56:47
  Blue Sky,
• 56:47
  Wikifur,
• 56:48
  KiwiFarms,
• 56:48
  even Grok doxed them.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's not good.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out they're a 22-year-old female,
• 56:53
  a possibly trans-identified web developer whose persona is a
• 56:56
  Barbary lion.
• 56:57
  And so rumors then started to spread on these forums that Casio
• 57:01
  isn't just a furry.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: She's a zoophile who draws furry porn with underage characters.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's three crimes against humanity.
• 57:09
  I've got a sample here of the kind of posts that were doing the
• 57:12
  rounds after this came out.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesse, please read this.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: He is a known zoo.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: Please report and block Cassio line.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: He's a known zoo.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, you forgot the trigger warning.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: Trigger warning zoo philia mentioned in the thread.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_03: Please report and block Cassio line.
• 57:23
  He's a known zoo phile who has publicly posted about sexually
• 57:26
  preferring cat genitalia.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: Excuses his zoo philia with his ZOCD.
• 57:32
  Oh God,
• 57:32
  that's a form of OCD where you're scared you're going to be a
• 57:35
  zoo phile.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like they have a version of that for being gay.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or for a pedo.
• 57:41
  supports bi lesbians whilst speaking over lesbians as a bi
• 57:45
  trans man and many other things.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: He's a problematic person who should not be supported at all.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: More info can be found on this thread.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: Don't harass, just block and report.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: Here's another one from X. A furry post.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: I kick Casio line from my Pokemon ARPG.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: um, what is ARPG?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Something game,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_03: gaming related,
• 58:03
  gaming related years ago for zoo philia and saying they wanted
• 58:06
  to fuck their cat.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay.
• 58:08
  So the evidence that Cassio line wants to fuck their cat is
• 58:12
  that she draws animals,
• 58:14
  uh,
• 58:14
  breastfeeding and has said online that she has intrusive
• 58:18
  thoughts about bestiality.
• 58:20
  So yes,
• 58:21
  this is a form of OCD that is very strange,
• 58:25
  but is a legitimate form of OCD.
• 58:26
  So the internet cracked the case that a 22-year-old mentally
• 58:32
  ill person who once
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: tweeted about Michaela is fucked up and does weird art.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 58:41
  Well,
• 58:41
  the case that they're making is that this person is also a
• 58:43
  literal murderer.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_03: Did KazioLion participate in like those snark forums?
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 58:49
  So she said in a statement that she didn't even know that the
• 58:51
  subreddit existed.
• 58:52
  So people are blaming this furry Redditor who doesn't appear to
• 58:56
  have engaged in
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: targeted harassment at all and didn't post in the snark subreddit as...
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: as being responsible for essentially murdering Mikayla.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing about the snark Reddit,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: the snark subreddit has been taken down,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: but I've got an archive of the entire thing.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: There are 22 posts in total,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: most of them with zero comments,
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: two of them made after Mikayla's death,
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: one is alislop,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: and most all of the posts are from April and May 2024,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: over a year before Mikayla killed herself.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: So the subreddit was basically dead.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: It had 28 members.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if you go back and look at the video in which Ethan,
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Michaela's husband,
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: announced her death,
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: he said,
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: most of these are people she knew in some other animal sanctuaries.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: So these were not like random trolls.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: And did you ask her family about this?
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:43
  So her mom told me that while Michaela was aware of the post on
• 59:46
  Reddit and Tumblr,
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Those were fairly easy to ignore.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: She said,
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
• 59:51
  And then what happened just in the last month or two is a
• 59:54
  couple of other rescues
• 59:55
  started cutting and pasting some of that stuff from Reddit and
• 59:58
  then adding their
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: own versions to it.
• 1:00:00
  And she found out it was people she actually helped start a
• 1:00:02
  rescue of their own,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_00: get some foxes from the fur farm,
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: and it just annihilated her.
• 1:00:06
  She could not believe that someone she had helped that she
• 1:00:09
  cared about that she
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: thought was a friend would stab her in the back.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_03: And again, who knows?
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's really hard to pin a suicide on any particular thing.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:00:18
  And she said she told me she's going to try to get a
• 1:00:19
  cyberbullying law passed.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: She wants to call it Michaela's law.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of doubt this is going to happen because,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: for one,
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: there are already laws against criminal harassment and stalking,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: including online.
• 1:00:30
  And appeals courts have repeatedly struck down criminal
• 1:00:33
  convictions for mean posts.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it would be hard to get meaningful legislative changes.
• 1:00:38
  And again,
• 1:00:38
  she told me herself that Michaela was able to ignore most of
• 1:00:41
  the online bullshit.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_00: And now she's a grieving mother.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, she's absolutely devastated by this loss.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think she's just looking to do something productive with that grief.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely feel for this woman.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: She loved her daughter so much.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_00: But if you take all of the facts into account...
• 1:00:56
  the story starts to look less like a cut-and-dry case of
• 1:00:59
  cyberbullying someone to death.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: And none of this is a defense of the online snark world.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, these fandoms can be very toxic for sure.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I understand why people would blame the trolls,
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: but I think there was probably more to it than,
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:01:11
  an inactive subreddit and a two-year-old comment from a furry
• 1:01:15
  that got almost no
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: upvotes.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you obviously shouldn't blame it on one person.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_03: I do think, like, someone...
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think suicide notes should be taken at face value,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_03: frankly,
• 1:01:24
  because that's someone when they're at their lowest and they
• 1:01:27
  might not interpret
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_03: the situation correctly.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously,
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_03: at the end of the day,
• 1:01:30
  these huge pile-on campaigns are just bad because they inflict
• 1:01:36
  disproportionate
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_03: amounts of harm.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter whether people actually kill themselves.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: If you take part in one of these campaigns, you shouldn't.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: Unless you're going to bully one of our enemies, in which case, go forth.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, as we've always said.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for that, Katie.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_03: This has been Blocked and Imported.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_03: As always, we are produced with help from Jessica the 80s Baby.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.