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Behind The Film: Closure with Michal Marczak · Indie Film Weekly

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Indie Film Weekly Behind the Film.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Glenn Reynolds.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm Jason Connell.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're going behind Closure, a documentary about a Polish father searching the Vistula River after his teenage son disappears.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: His extraordinary efforts to find answers gradually draw him into helping other families facing the shame and certainty.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: The film is directed by Michael Marchak.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm struck by how the film takes a search that could have been treated like a mystery and makes it something much more human.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: The photography in the film is very immersive, but the real power seems to come from watching a father find a way to keep going when there may be no answers.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: So let's meet Michael Marchak and go behind Closure.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, Michael, welcome.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for joining us today.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very happy to be here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: So every film starts somewhere.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where did Closure start for you?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It started in the most unexpected of ways.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is a film that if you'd have asked me two years ago if I would have ever made a film like this, I would say, of course not.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: This appearance, of course, was a very big story in the Polish media and social media, but it somehow missed me.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't watch much television, try to be as much off social media as I can.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I had no clue.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was actually on a raft with my wife and our five-year-old son at the time.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: We built this big, big wooden raft for a two-week journey down the Vistala River.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the Vistala River is one of Europe's last wild rivers.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's the only unregulated river that flows through the heart of Poland and the heart of Warsaw, the capital.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a huge force of nature and extremely beautiful, but very dangerous as well.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there's very little people that actually go on it because there's currents and there's whirlpools and you can get sucked.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I've been kind of going on it for the past 10 years because I just love the nature that's there and I'm just very drawn to it.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we built this raft.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: We were going on this family trip, but also kind of scouting locations for a fiction film that we had in our mind, a screenplay that we were working on.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was like a coming of age tale, very light kind of two-character movie.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: We were thinking of ideas and writing along the way, and it was our last day of the trip.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: We got to Warsaw.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: We went and spent our last night on this on these islands, on one of the islands next to Warsaw.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it was dark.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: We couldn't dock with the raft because our flashlights went out.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: We were out of batteries.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was the last of our trip.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, this man appeared from nowhere and he helped us.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: He showed us the place where we could dock, helped us carry our gear out.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then we spent the evening or the night by the campfire together, you know, and he told us why he's there.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: It was the main protagonist of Clojure, Daniel, and he said that he's there looking for his son because he doesn't know what happened to him.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just so, you know, blown away by that story.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next morning, it was just natural that we kind of, you know, that I had helped him out, you know, because we were there together, and he immediately saw in me like a person that also knows how to go on this river, has been going it, understands it.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Just kind of helped him out as much as I could.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we exchanged phone numbers, and then I went back with my wife.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: We were working on the script for the fiction film that we wanted to do, and but I kind of just couldn't stop thinking about the encounter with Daniel and his story, you know, and me being a father as well, you know.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I've that was a time already at the five years old, you see the first moments of like rebellion, you know.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you we had these conversations with you know with my wife.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: How do you navigate this you know world?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the kid is already trying to get to like YouTube and stuff.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you protect them from all this stuff that's happening?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we were aware of this like big mental health crisis that's going on around teenagers, and all of a sudden you meet someone that's you know kind of face on with his topics, right?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I just couldn't stop thinking about it.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And a week later I reached out because he actually said, like, he asked me, like, listen, I'm always looking for people to help and volunteer.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: How his search goes, he just has people of goodwill that help him.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I contacted him and I helped him for another day, and during that day, his father was there as well.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the grandfather of Chris, 74-year-old man.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when I saw the father searching for his son, and the grandfather searching for his grandkids, at the same time being scared that he might lose his son as well, not just the grandson, because you know, there's a certain obsession that's in Daniel and in the search, and that he's gonna maybe, you know, lose him also to the water, but in a different way.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just I was so moved and blown away that I said, listen, guys, like I'm actually a documentary filmmaker, like that's not why I came here, but like I'm just so moved, like maybe we can do something together.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And like if we just kind of immediately clicked and went on this one-year journey of what the film is.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: Man, that story is very powerful, I gotta say.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: For all my docs, like I rarely seek out, you know, or think look for that.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, this could be like a strong subject matter, or this could be, you know, this would make for a great film.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really try to only do them.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's why maybe my last film was 10 years ago, right?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I kind of wait for the moments that's for something has to just really move me and resonate with me for me to want to do that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's also a huge toll and a responsibility when you work and talk with the people that you know that you film and their stories.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I've been just kind of doing fiction these past 10 years, and then you know, the story came along, and I was like, okay, that all can wait.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's a certain urgency and importance in this story.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then later I can go into some other details of actually, you know, what actually made me resonate to the story even more.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and going back, you mentioned your other work.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: How did your earlier work shape the way you approached a real family in such a painful situation?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think anything could really prepare you for that.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, definitely doing films, documentaries, this is my maybe fourth or fifth doc.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I know how to approach people and talk with them, and I know the responsibility that one has to the people that you film, and then you know, so definitely that helped me.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I've never filmed people in this situation.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that past experience could help in this regard.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I just try to be as honest and as open as possible.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh but I was also extremely moved that Daniel and Ignishka, his wife, and they really opened up their home and they really opened up their lives, and they were just very honest with me.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they were just, you know, I would say the perfect protagonists.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: They were okay with me filming in any situation, and they even themselves said, listen, like we trust you.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: You tell the story as honestly as you see it.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: If this film in some way helps like us, great.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you know if we find Chris faster, that would be amazing.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: But if not, then hopefully we'll help other people.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and maybe have less of these tragedies happening in the world.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So they just really felt that like that's the mission.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they've totally opened themselves up.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I was extremely, you know, grateful to be able to do that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: And but also, you know, a burden of doing the right job if someone gets you so much trust, right?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I just threw all my heart into it and tried to give it everything that I have.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, having made several documentaries, I know that access is so essential.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you had access here, and a great responsibility comes with that access, like you just said, they let you in their home.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're really making a movie, but you're also on this quest.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've never made a doc about this, this kind of journey.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, did you find yourself like focused on finding Chris and you know, his body and it was in the river?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And also making a movie.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Did you find yourself kind of like helping them find, you know, on their journey, the Daniel and his father?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: And also, like, wait, wait, I'm a documentarian, I'm filming.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: How do you the objectivity of that was that tricky for you to navigate?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: It definitely was because many times like on that boat, it was just me and Daniel.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I was also the cinematographer and pulling my own focus and also the sound person because I would have to do the labs and everything because there just wasn't space for a sound person to fit on that boat.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So many, many, many days it was just me and Daniel.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in general, you know, I try to shoot as little as I can.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I worked as an editor for like 15 years as well, so I think I'm pretty precise and like understanding what I need to make a scene, or in figuring out, okay, is this moment good?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, what I did is I just tried to be there as a human being and and to help.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it definitely helped that I knew this river and I knew like so I could actually really be of help.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know how to you know steal the boat, I I know how to navigate the river.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And at a certain moment, like we were just really like a team.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like Daniel would help me carry my gear, I would help him carry his stuff, and I was just three, four hours just helping him with the search, and then I'm like, I thought, wait a minute, this is a situation that merits filming.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: I would just be like, okay, organically take the camera, which I always had very close to me, like to pick it up in a second, and then I would just take the camera and film, and then Daniel just kept on doing what he was doing.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I would film for a certain amount of time and then put it down.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, there were moments where, for example, like, you know, it was like tricky, but I always tried to assess, like, if I put the camera down and help, will that like the the choice I had to make, you know, is like, for example, we were like stuck in the fog and it was quite dangerous because we're scraping the ground, we didn't know where we're going, or it wasn't working, the batteries died.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, but I thought, like, what could I do?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's not much that I could do to help.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it is a very dangerous situation, but my presence is not gonna help lower that danger.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's okay for me to film it.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hardships that Daniel has to endure during this search.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I just tried to always like do that in my head.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, will I help?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if that will help us, then I will put the camera down.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: If it won't affect the situation that I film.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's really fascinating to run it through that filter, and you're constantly doing that all day long and all night long.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it gotta be mentally draining on top of everything else.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was, yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and you know, there's this, I don't want to spoil too much of the film, but we have the sequence with another family because at a certain point, Daniel helps other families and it's other father, you know, and he got the worst news in the world that one can get, and that was just really tough.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And there, you know, like when we went back through the footage, um my editor said, Man, there's like not a single shot more that we could add into the film, like everything that you filmed.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of have, of course, we shortened it, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I just tried to like, you know, just film the minimum amounts that I could just to get the beats to convey to the audience what this father is going through.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And there's like even a shot where I kind of he cries and I just pan over.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I just literally put the camera down after that shot and then spend as much time as I can just being there as a human being and trying to support this person in this worst imaginable situation that they are in.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's the search, but then the the film becomes, I guess, somewhat about living with uncertainty as opposed to just the search itself.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering about the title itself and when when that came to you, and did you feel like that was an ironic title from the beginning, or did that, you know, what was your process of coming up with that title and and how that related to the uncertainty in the film?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: From the start, when I met Daniel, you know, I felt that this has to come to some kind of closure.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I think, you know, a situation of just losing someone, even even if you know exactly what happened to them, and one never really fully gets closure, right?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I lost my dad when I was 11, he died in a car accident.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you learn to live with it, takes some time, and you shape a story that you understand it, right?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the closure was always, yeah, a play of like what that closure would mean, not getting full closure, right?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that the film does arrive at a certain sense of closure.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what that closure is, I think, is what is worth watching the movie for, even though, of course, yeah, it's not full closure.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now, as you're putting this film together, I mean the sequences with Daniel that you're describing, it's fascinating.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: You're in the documentary and kind of being a human and a documentarian, but when you started to edit it together, like and you would bring in music and sound, like were you starting to do that on the water?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, this will be a good visual, I'll bring some music in.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or what was that process like for you?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I always felt that documentary can be also pure cinema, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm not really reinventing the wheel here.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: There are, of course, many people that have done this before.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, especially like in in Poland, we've had this like very, very strong tradition.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the first films that I saw as a teenager that really got me excited about documentary filmmaking and just you know fell in love with it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it was actually Polish School of Documentary Cinema.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was very special and very unique in the world as well, because it was filmmakers that were working, like Keshlowski and Marcelzinski and Drigas, and those were all people that worked both in fiction and documentary, and they would work with like the world's best DOPs that did like big fiction movies, but then they would do like documentaries.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So when they were kind of going between the two, like they brought in that craft and that precision of storytelling and not using talking heads and really trying to get the camera movement to be you know precise and to tell a lot through what's off-screen and all the tools that we have available, like as you said, precise editing, sound design, music, the way you shoot it, to make the films feel as cinematic as possible.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was really drawn to that tradition.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm what I do is kind of a continuation of it, and you know, it's just exciting.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's so exciting with today's tools that you're able to push it like even further, right?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've got such small gear now that gives you such cinematic qualities.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And with all my movies, I've been trying to shoot them this way where there's no talking heads, you're there close to the protagonists on wider lenses, you try to anticipate where they go and to shoot it so that it kind of looks like a fiction film.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of just what I've been really into my whole career.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, with this movie, thanks to all this new gear that has come out, and I also like custom design my own stuff.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I design things and 3D print them and like modify gear so that the footprint of it is as small as possible, and that I could shoot with it for like eight hours without changing batteries, without changing cards.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I could actually carry it as well for those eight hours, and that it all basically fits in a backpack so that I could, you know, and and I could like really quickly switch from handheld to gimbal, and I use like LIDAR and lasers for the focusing.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like really I'm a big tech nerd when it comes to like cameras and lenses, custom modified lenses, like everything almost custom modified, but very small.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like the base is an A7S3, so it's a very small camera, one that you know people sometimes think of like wait, it's not a professional camera.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: But if you push it to its maximum, you can't get a lot from it to serve the story because I feel that like if you use all the language of cinema, you can then really have the audience you know feel what it is like to be like on that boat, maybe too, you know, to feel for a certain moment what it would be to be Daniel.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: The film is extremely immersive.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you really feel like you're there with Daniel.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: How did you decide when to follow Daniel so closely and when to let the river and kind of the landscape, you know, speak per se?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a combination of in the moment when you shoot, and what helped in this movie was many of the things that he did was repetitive.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, he would like go back to the same place a couple times.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: The movie opens with him throwing a dummy, and he did that before just the GPS broke really fast, so he had to do it again.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to see how he does certain things.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able kind of in my head to plan, okay, how do you then shoot this, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, so I'm gonna be with the gimbal here, and then I'm gonna and I know where which way he's gonna walk, so I can kind of anticipate where I should or where the light is, you know, to capture these moments, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: That he's gonna take like five minutes tying this this thing so that I can then go in for a close-up and then I could pull back.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of helped.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: So certain sequences that I saw him doing before, I could kind of pre-plan.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, you know, on the day things go differently, he goes a different way, something fucks up, he has to do it.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I like for me, like shooting is like a very kind of a spiritual thing.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I could even say it's like I get lost, and that's when I feel I have something good because I like I'm just with the camera, it's so light that I could shoot with it for hours, and I'm just trying to get everything.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when I kind of lose track of time or space because I'm looking at the monitor, that's when I feel like I'm probably getting something good because I'm just like in the zone, in the flow, trying to anticipate where he's gonna go and trying to do these master shots kind of with the camera.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when I get that, I feel that that's like when I'm in full sync with the character on days that it doesn't work, like I go right, he goes left.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: I see that something like energetically is off, that I'm not like in sync with what he's doing.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then those days where like I'm just boom, he goes right, I go right.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, those are moments like, okay, like I'm getting something, something you know, emotionally.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that it's like a zen thing for me when I shoot.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I can't imagine like doing a dog with a DP because it's just so elemental to me to be there close to the person.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I also shoot in a way where I have like a monitor on the side, so I'm not hiding behind a camera, so I can always like having the eye contact with the person.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that helps that I'm always there as a human being.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a still things I've kind of developed over the years that have helped me shoot this way.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's fascinating.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I love this production pipeline of equipment that you have created.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, you'll be selling it soon to other filmmakers.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: There was actually a company like uh like 10 years ago where there weren't many gimbals out there.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: I had to actually, there was only the Movi, which cost like$50,000 and it was designed for big cameras.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So from scratch, with this guy from Russia who developed this Alex Moss software for gimbals, like we designed our own gimbal from scratch.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, everything was 3D printed, it was a completely our own design, our own software.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we had actually one company in Poland that licensed everything and they were supposed to market it, but then they went out of business.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, because DGI came in with all their gear.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: At least it serves you and your films.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really for you know getting the kit of the filming to really just fit the story.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, modified some stuff so that it would work on water and in the circumstances that are needed.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think you have to do it if you're like a one-man show kind of.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: As far as the editing goes, is you got further in.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know what the editing bay is like, and you build a documentary in editing, essentially.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Although you were you weren't just shooting thousands of hours, you were very strategic as you spoke to about what I need and not too much, and you kind of were editing in your head.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: But at what point did you decide to bring other families into the film that you thought, okay, I need to bring in some other elements and layer this in here?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't my idea.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's not something that I would ever feel comfortable in any way offering.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like I with my previous film, Well The Sleepless Nights, I really just felt natural that we'd script some stuff and we that's why I called it a hybrid.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very open by saying that, you know, half of it is scripted, half of it is documentary.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in this film, just you know, it wouldn't feel right for me to bring any elements.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So there actually was a moment where we had like these three months, like eight months of shooting, that it was just so repetitive and nothing was progressing.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I got a little depressed.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wait a minute, I don't I don't want to make a movie just about like a person lost that obsession.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is not a good ending.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I felt that something must happen, something must change, and I just have to give it time.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just have to be there and let Daniel do his process.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very fortunate that I mean fortunate is a bad word, and yeah, it's hard to describe this in good words.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not fortunate, but like this other family reached out to Daniel and asked for him to help because they couldn't get help from anybody else.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: The authorities only really look for a missing person for like a week, and then they kind of leave it to luck if a fisherman stumbles upon something or somebody finds their body floats up, you know.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they were very desperate for answers, and Daniel agreed to help them.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then that became like a very big culminating point in Daniel that then like led to a whole series of events later on that kind of brought closure to the film and the dramaturgy, and then basically within like two months, we finished shooting, and then all those scenes that are in the film are in the chronological kind of order that we shot them.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we were very close to how it was in real life.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see the sun dance, but I the response there was very strong.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: What was it like presenting the story to an audience with Daniel's experience at the center of it?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: The first screening of a film is always it's nerve-wracking because uh what film you made, but then many times the audience picks up on other things and they see it differently than you, and always waiting for those first audience reactions.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are people reacting the same way as I thought they would?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are they responding to the same things?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Will the family be proud of the movie?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like will the protagonists be okay with it?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: How will they react to the reaction of the audience?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they there's so many variables here that you can't anticipate.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you come into the project with a fully open heart, and there's some things that can go wrong that that you didn't see that can cause friction or pain to someone.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I was always in every film I do, that's what I'm scared the most in a dog break, because it's real people, it's real life.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very stressed.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, when the first when I saw that audiences are are resonating with it and are moved, and not just people that have lived through anything similar, but just anybody who's had grief or even is scared of grief.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've had people come up to me.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the most beautiful reaction that I got was people going out of a Q ⁇ A and saying, I'm sorry, I can't stay for the Q ⁇ A, I have to call my mom or my dad, or I can't kind of what we set out to have people remember the small things in life.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, with every other screening, it like the the pressure went down, and especially then Daniel and Agnieszka, the protagonists, they came to many of the screenings and the QA's, and I saw that they are proud with the movie.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other family that's also featured in the film came with us to the Warsaw premiere, and we're also very proud to be part of it.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: So then that's when I can go, okay, like this is good.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is okay, this has worked.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Job well done.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: So are you excited for the upcoming what is it, October 28th?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Screening the QA in New York, the release?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Movies are made to be seen.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's a tough world, tough market.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many movies, so many options, and yeah, I would just love for as many people to see this movie as possible.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now the pressure's off, you've had that first.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Screening the families embrace it now.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like you can finally just excel, I assume, and just put it out there.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: I can, yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was a very emotional journey for me.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and um, yeah, it's like I mean, I can tell you the story, but like, you know, and I think when you do something out of like heart, when you really try to do something, not think of, you know, will this make a great movie?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this, and if you just are so moved by something and then you do it, then reality gives you certain like presence or benefits or whatever you call them.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: I told you I lost my dad when I was 11 in a car accident, and I and I really hadn't realized that what I did was something very similar to Daniel.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he Daniel is like all into the search and on getting stuff, you know, getting finding answers.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, it was like running away to cinema.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would watch four movies a day, and I did that for like three years until like kind of the pain and the went away.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And when we were on these islands with Daniel at night, you know, just talking about life, just being there with him, I think, you know, just the presence of the father, and it just brought back so many memories to me that I had not allowed myself to, or I that I thought I had like that I didn't have.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And like all of a sudden, like I kind of started like living through grief that I never allowed myself.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird how the cosmos works in mysterious ways sometimes.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I maybe that's why I was drawn to the subject matter to the film in some way.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the title.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the title, yes.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's just like this movie has been very special for me on so many levels that I did not anticipate at the beginning.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Michael, we'll make a hard cut here to a section we call quick cuts, and this is a much lighter part of the conversation.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: It is really not about your film, it's about you and the theatrical experience.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's just 10 quick questions, don't overthink them.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a fun segment of the podcast we like to do to see where people are at with the theatrical experience these days.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh Jason, you go for the first one.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, super easy, Michael.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna you're gonna love these.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, and thank you for all that you shared.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing story.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, popcorn or candy.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, popcorn.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Butter or no butter, no butter and no oil.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, clean.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Isle seat or center seat.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a question is that of course center seat.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: You'd be surprised.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: You would be surprised.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like 50-50.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: You guys middle middle.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the rule.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Middle middle.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Middle middle.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: And how many trailers are okay to watch at the beginning of a film?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: As many as it takes.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I love trailers.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Give me give me an hour of trailers.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mind.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Don't give me commercial.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to this hour of trailers.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Get rid of the commercials, give me just trailers.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Matinee or late night screening?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Both.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Two films, two films a day.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: The film nerd.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Two films a day.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's the best.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, favorite movie theater either now or when you're growing up.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, it's it was this like small theater next to my house, like a beautiful old arthouse kind of cinema that every single summer did a whole jar mush retrospective, and they did it every summer.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would see like jar mush every summer.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was my thing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: That is amazing.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what was the name of it?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was Kinovars.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, they shut it down.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like standing empty for many, many years.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Very sad.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: My dream is to be able to like own that theater and run it, but um, I don't have money for that.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: But that could be a great documentary, Michael.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: You putting that together, bringing it back from the ashes.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: I see it.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: I can see it now.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can see it as well.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how many people would be willing to invest in that, unfortunately.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's time.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's time.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's really a dream.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: First movie you remember seeing in a theater.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Lethal Weapon.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: That was great.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: My dad took me.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I remember that was like, yeah, that was insane.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: How about the movie you've seen the most in theaters?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: In theaters.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like something you went back and back, you like went back to see a few times or a Jarmouche film, perhaps.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Jarmoose for sure because they were every summer, but probably back to the future.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was a fan of backronic.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's a perfect movie.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Have you gone by the Gamble House in Pasadena?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not Brown's house.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a museum, but you can see the outside.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Just go by there.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's incredible called the Gamble House.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: It'll blow you away.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: I am in LA right now.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned that, so it's like just drive by.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's an architectural wonder anyway.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And to know that it was Back to the Futures house is like awesome.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, no problem.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: What was the last movie you saw in a theater?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: Besides your own.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, the last movie I saw in a theater, I think it was NASA.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: NASA.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And thumbs up or thumbs down?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean thumbs up, yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thumbs up.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just it's hard to judge those kinds of movies.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, at the end of every behind-the-film episode, which this is, we have one more question called The Last Cut.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Glenn, take it away.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, Michael, you you made a film about a man searching for an answer he may never receive.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: What has making closure changed about the way you think we live with the things we cannot know or ever know?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's more about just appreciating what you have and just uh being more in the moment.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we're all so short on time and try and do so many things, and like kind of life slips by, but it's as banal as it seems, it's really about just noticing those moments and being present and being here and in all matters being present, being present online with your kids, even if you don't understand what they're watching, and it seems absurd to you just be there with them, watch it with them, but they have something to talk about, which is from their world because our worlds are so far apart now.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's what it's about.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, Michael, I know I touched on this earlier because I was talking about you know the excitement that's going on, but where can people see closure?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's opening at the IFC Center on the 28th, and then it's rolling out for limited theatrical.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely gonna play in LA and Glendale, I think, and it's gonna play in like Chicago and Austin and San Francisco, and I hope other cities as well.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Our distributors won two specials on their website or on their social media.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they'll be posting where one can see this movie.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: But we put a lot of hard and effort into making it a theatrical experience, and if we mix it in Dolby Atmos, uh see it in a proper theater with like really good sound, that would be awesome.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Michael, thank you so much for joining us.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a wonderful movie, and thank you so much for taking us behind Closure.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for this awesome and thoughtful conversation.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.