Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #250: James Thomas-University of Oklahoma

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#250: James Thomas-University of Oklahoma · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

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Track and field world Juvenal tuned in to our humble servant
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Mike Cunningham for another extraordinary message on Gil
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Athletics. Connections.
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All right, here we go. We are back.
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You're back once again for the Gil Athletics Connections Track
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and Field Podcast. I'm so humbled to be your host,
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Mike Cunningham, National Business Development Manager for
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Guild Athletics, before I introduced this week's guest.
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I do have to kind of just bare my soul here for a second.
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So because we like nice big round numbers, if you've
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noticed, this is episode #250. That's that's a lot.
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And that's just our guest episodes.
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As you know, if you're a frequent listener here, we do a
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lot of bonus episodes on Thursdays and throughout the
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years. We got a really cool everyday
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bonus thing coming up in April and May that I hope you're
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around to listen to. But, you know, after 250
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episodes, so you know, over 250 coaches from all levels,
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private, public, middle school, all the incidentally levels in
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AIA, junior college, etcetera. You know, I continually get
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feedback from you, from other coaches, from listeners about
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what this podcast has done for them.
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It has grown a life that's bigger than I ever thought.
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I thought this would just be an interview show and we'd move on.
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But it's brought a lot of value to people out there, which
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brings a lot of value to me. So I just wanna say thank you.
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This podcast continues in Year 5, which is just amazing to me.
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Season 5 here and I'm really, really excited for, you know,
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again we like big round numbers, really excited that you know,
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kind of got someone special here for us here on Episode 250.
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So without further ado, help me welcome the head coach, the
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Director of Track and Field for the University of Oklahoma, the
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Sooners baby. Here we go.
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Welcome to Wise, the wonderful Mr. James Thomas James.
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How are you Sir? I'm awesome, Mike, man, I
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appreciate you having me on here.
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And and and 2:50 is kind of a unique number because that'd be
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like A1 bar progression over the high jump world record.
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And so this like has multiple meanings to me now.
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So now I appreciate you having me on, man.
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See, you just establish yourself as high jump nerd right there I.
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Love that. That was good.
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That was really good. I've lost all my metric
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abilities anymore. The only metric I still remember
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is 610 for the long jump is 20 feet and 1/4.
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And the only reason I remember that is I had a young lady jump
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six O 9 and I thought that was 20 feet and I was like wow my
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1st 20 foot long jumper and then you see the actual results.
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It was 1911 and three and I was like you have and there is no 20
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feet even. I was just like you've got to be
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kidding me. She ended up jumping like 64650,
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so we we got well over it. But OK, you got past that deal
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for you. But but all this, you know,
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someone says, Oh, my kid jumped 211 and I'm like, yeah, what's?
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That man, I don't know anymore. I've.
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Lost it, James. Thanks for being here today for
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a couple reasons. One, you know, it's kind of
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weird, you know, we like round numbers, right?
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200 two 53. 100 is really. Weird.
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I don't know why that you know. I don't know why 250 is more
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important than 251, but it it is for some reason.
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So I wanted to, you know, kind of always have a special guest,
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someone that you know I admire highly, that I think has a
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interesting background that I have a relationship with.
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And so for you, for me to have you is kind of a big deal, man.
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I've, you know, admired you for a long time.
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We'll get into some stories, I'm sure about that.
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And I'm personally just excited for you in your new role here as
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the, the head coach, director of track and field at Oklahoma,
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man. So first of all,
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congratulations. Have you had time to even catch
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your breath it? Is it's weird like I think
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there's there's a there's two parts to this thing you kind of
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hop in something mid year which is ultimately the the is we're
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not the football world where the bowl season ends and everybody
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goes scattering in December. I'm in my mind I'm geared up
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ready to go take this squad that I have at Georgia and get ready
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to go hit this thing and you know and then this curveball
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curveball kind of hits and so but the the one fortunate part
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it's track season. So the one thing about track
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season we this is what we do. We coach we do this and so you
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know if there's if there's meetings going on between
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Thursday and Saturday or whatever I'm not there.
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I'm focused on track and field. And so between getting a travel
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itinerary and getting on the road, this, this is about as
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comfortable as a setting as as I know because this is what we've
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been doing, what I've been doing for the last 21 years and
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getting on the road, traveling, hopping on buses, hopping on
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planes. And so there's there's a,
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there's a hard part and an easy part.
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And thankfully I've always appreciated track being that
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easy part. It's my outlet, it's my, it's my
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safe space in a way. So you know, being away from my
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family for six months and doing things like that for a little
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while, this is probably what's kept me sane and kept me happy
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and kept me in a place where I'm like, you know, you realize
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decisions that you make, they they played out for a reason and
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and I'm definitely fortunate to be here.
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Well, we're going to dive into it a little bit deeper as we go
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along. Your story, it, but it strikes
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me the way you just described that the word I just kind of was
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picturing. You didn't say this word, but
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watching your face as you were talking about it, the word that
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came up to me was fun. Like you seem like you have fun
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when you're out there. You talked about that Thursday
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through Saturday. That's fun for you.
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Yeah, no, it's track and field. Like it's never felt like a job.
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I've always wondered, you know, and you know, you look at people
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who work 9:00 to 5:00 or even longer hours and things like
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that. And I look at a lot of people,
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even athletic trainers and think they they have a true job and
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mission. In my opinion, ours.
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We get to go live vicariously through a bunch of 18 to 23 year
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olds and and get to play a game and get to play a sport and get
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to see these, you know, these athletes just kind of do what
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they love and kind of get to inspire and lead and motivate
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And so it's never felt like felt like work.
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So it's always been fortunate for me to be in a big line
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where, you know, these couple decades passed by like a snap of
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a finger and I feel like, man, you know, I hope I never forget
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the real job one day. Hey, you know, I had to go get a
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real job one day, but it ended up being this interviewing
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people around the country. So you.
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Know not. Always terrible.
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It's very no, it's it's it's it's very similar.
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And there's things of passions that I like that I enjoy that I
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always felt like, man, if I really, you know, if I didn't
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want to just be kind of a broke coach all my life, I could
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probably go do this and make some money, do that.
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But there's there's nothing that I've ever thought that I could
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do with the same amount of passion that I do with with with
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coaching and and and and interacting with young people
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and other other coaches across the country.
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And I'm still a, you know, a student myself.
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So opportunity to learn and grow in this sport, it's it's always
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kept me, kept me engaged. Love it, love it.
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Well let's learn more about you. Let's hop back in our way back
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machine here. Where does track and field start
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for you? I don't know if you were a track
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athlete, a multi sport athlete. Where does track and coaching
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kind of start for you? OK.
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Yeah I I have a probably unique story in this it's it's it kind
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of goes way back. I mean I'm I'm from I'm from
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Houston. Houston area went to actually
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called Katie. I went to Mayday Creek high
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School out in Katie ISD used to be part of the Cypress
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Fairbanks. We kind of shifted that way
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later and it was my it was it was May Creek and two other
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schools that made-up the Katie ISD.
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Now what's probably 787-A whatever a high school they have
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out there 6A high schools and it's grown and there's 10 lane,
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12 lane highway going through it.
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But it's it. You know I started there as a as
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a dual sport basketball track athlete state state and high
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jump. I was, I was a jumper long,
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triple and high and and that was always my thing.
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But you know I younger days, you know I was quarterback always
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had a good arm but my biggest thing was basketball.
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And I knew I was going to play basketball in college but I also
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wanted to run track. That was that was big for me and
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so when I I took a a number of visits I went to a lot of what
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we call the day, the Power Five schools and and I end up landing
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kind of last second. It's a really, really unique
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story with all the recruiting going on, all the things
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happening. I I end up taking a last second.
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We had a family reunion and it kind of got motivated by my
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family and I chose a school that wasn't even recruiting me.
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It was Southern University. That's where all my family had
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graduated from my my my, my uncle played football there.
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My dad went there. My mom she know she was the
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bougie one. I'm not and she was, I'm sorry.
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My aunt was the boogie when she went to Tulane and she's the
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only one in the family didn't graduate from Southern.
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So I I decided to go out there and and and take that same
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route. It didn't quite work for me And
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so you know from what I was trying to do basketball track
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wise, all that kind of stuff. And so I actually made a shift
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in in in order in in in those days if you made any kind of
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transfer from a basketball, you're sitting out and I didn't
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want to sit out. And so one of my former kind of
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mentors coaches was working at a place in Nampa ID called NW
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Nazarene University was NAIA school.
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And so I make AI was like you know what I can move mid year
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and I can have an opportunity to kind of go here and continue to
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play basketball because I didn't want to stop and and also tie
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into some track and field stuff because they're eager for me to
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potentially do both. And I'm like, OK, I'll go park
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it there for a year almost treated like a a little small
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segment of my of my time and and and and go see what I can make
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happen there and I end up going there and and that's why I fell
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in love with track. It was it was it was an oozy
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Nick being Randy Dogdale was you know he was the head coach there
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and mainly all it was kind of distant oriented.
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And I went in there and I had three events that broke 3 school
9:28
records out of high school. And so I had an opportunity to
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start kind of coaching and learning and I was out there
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recruiting volleyball players. I was out there recruiting.
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I just wanted teammates. And so that's when I started
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reaching out to every coach I could find across the country.
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And that's when I connected with Curtis Collier and and who ended
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up being the Sam Houston head coach later down the line.
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And that's where I ended up actually going and finishing up
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everything at Sam Houston State. But that's when I became kind of
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a track nerd. That's when I started doing
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level one stuff. I did level one training and I'm
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still a sophomore in college. I just like, I got to Start
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learning this stuff. I'm.
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I'm intrigued because it was one of those few sports that felt so
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pure to me. Like I couldn't blame anybody.
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I, you know, playing basketball and and going to a lower level
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at the time, which still end up being extremely competitive.
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NAIA and all those other sports still have their own
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competitiveness to it and you still got to put it in the same
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hoop. So it's still the same
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complexity to it. And so that that challenged me
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in a way but also opened my eyes to to, OK, now it's not can't
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blame my point guard. I can't blame my center.
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I can't blame the play that was called and track.
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It was just kind of me and Elaine or runway or apron.
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And I was like, yeah, this is kind of what I want to do.
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But I also remember looking at film at 6:00 AM and doing film
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again at 7:00 PM and doing this at at 9:00 PM like man, at some
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point I I want to have this this house this this this dog with a
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picket fence and I don't know when I ever get to see it if I'm
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doing this basketball thing And so track and field like I didn't
10:55
study anybody. I studied our people when I went
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home. I could if I want to disconnect
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I could disconnect and it was it was it was really simple to do
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and so that work life balance which has always been important
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to me is and there's always been a staple of kind of who I, who I
11:07
believe in and myself. It's it's something that it fit
11:10
it fit my pattern my flow of of what the what life should be
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with sport with jobs with whatever.
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And so yeah that's how I made that full transition moving on
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to Sam Houston State and I knew from there I would have an
11:23
opportunity to coach right away when I got done and so and you
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know and work with Curtis Carter who's the mastermind Level 3
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kind of he was he was kind of really a big mentor for me
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growing up. I still have every workout that
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I've ever done with him from 20 years ago, 20 plus years ago and
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it's just really helped guide me to to the to the person I am
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today. Let's unpack some of that.
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That's a amazing story and journey.
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I I love that. Let's go back to high school.
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You were doing a lot of different sports.
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You kind of settled on basketball and track.
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You know, there's still that was back in 90.
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I graduated 98. 98 OK, I know you're a few years younger than
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me. I graduated 94.
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OK, so this is in the 90s. Here we are in 2024 and we're
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still arguing debating about multi sport athletes and what
12:14
you should or should not be doing.
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How did you and and really you know that to bring in the
12:18
mentors the coaches that you had how did you guys figure out the
12:22
flow of what you know you obviously were promising
12:25
athletes so you know I couldn't blame the basketball coach if
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they said no I want James you know basketball 365 because
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he'll be even better and the track coach going yeah yeah but
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he's a great jumper if I had him 365 he'd be a better jumper.
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How did you guys coordinate multi sport Athleticism for you
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And by the way you still have you talk about multi sport,
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multi event type stuff, Academics are still involved in
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all of this as well. You got to make sure you're
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graduating. How did you guys and your
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coaches handle that? I mean at the time, I mean I
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guess in the 90s there was never that kind of weird part about
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how many sports you're going to do if you want, if it matched
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season wise. I mean there was it wasn't
13:00
uncommon for people to play three sports.
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It wasn't uncommon for people to put it's changed now because
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there's so many specialties and now there's parents investing
13:07
and to all these specialties and things like that.
13:09
So if you're putting that investment, you're like, I'm not
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going to water down my investment for you to go play
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another sport. You know if you're going to be
13:16
competitive in it, you kind of let it happen.
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But I've always felt tracked there.
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I don't think I can't think of a single sport where track can
13:24
hurt that other sport and there's just so many things when
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it comes to the power, speed you know even some forms of agility,
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mobility, coordination. It's just it's such a logical
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part of everything we do. It's the purest sport we have
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and you know and and I think that you know, when you look at
13:40
other sports, everybody's trying to take a little snippet of what
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track's doing to help their sport become better.
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And so, you know, I think that was the way of the world.
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They almost expected it. But then I think at the time,
13:50
every single track coach was also some version of a football
13:53
staff member, you know. So it was kind of that you're
13:56
going to go out there, you're going to coach this sport,
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you're going to do this thing. And so it became a way for them
14:01
to almost punish you more. But at the end of the day, I
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snuck off to the field event. So I'm like, you know, and I was
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going to let you have. I was, I was smart enough at the
14:07
time. You're not about to give me this
14:08
400 meter train and then tell me to go over there to the long
14:10
jump runway and high jump apron. Like, no, if you want to do
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that, we can do that after because it doesn't make any
14:15
sense on my body because I, I, I, I, it just doesn't work.
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We don't. We don't go out there and start
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practice with a bunch of wind sprints and then go out there
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and try and do full court press. Coach Thomas in 2024 saying that
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makes every sense in the world. You were thinking this as a
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16/17/18 year old kid? Absolutely.
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I don't know why stuff stuff had to match to me.
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Like, it's just weird. It's almost like outfits and
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things. Like I, you know, there's
14:39
certain I'm an analogy guy and it's something that people may
14:42
like, and I think I got this from a Boost Exnator.
14:44
But you know, there's a lot of people who like beer and there's
14:47
a lot of people who like ice cream.
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I just don't know a lot of people who like them together,
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you know? And so there's that.
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I had that beer and ice cream kind of mentality.
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Like there's a lot of things that I love separately, but I'm
14:58
never mixing together and enjoying as one.
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And and that's how training has always been to me.
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That's how sport has always been to me.
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That's how life's always been to me.
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I kind of want to put it in its area where if you know, if it's
15:08
it's family kid time and you know, I don't want to mix family
15:10
kid time with a bunch of work. I don't want to mix a bunch of
15:13
this with a bunch of that. At some point I need to dedicate
15:16
you know kind of my time, my focus and you know it could be
15:18
my own attention level. But I I I function a lot better
15:22
and I can multi task well, but I focus a lot better and do a lot
15:25
better when I get to actually put that focus on stuff And and
15:28
so you know that's why I had the opportunity even and that's why
15:30
it's such a great relationship because I think I was at least a
15:32
communicator. So I wasn't going to be one of
15:34
athletes like I'm not doing this.
15:35
I'm doing that. It needs to be this way.
15:37
I'm just like well what do you think about this, you know,
15:39
because I can think about, you know when I do this and do that
15:41
whatever. You know, what's the benefit of
15:43
doing this for me to training before I go to the high jump
15:45
paper? Does that really make much, much
15:47
sense and and help me out here? And they feel like, Oh yeah,
15:49
you're probably right, we'll change everybody, y'all go do
15:51
this and come back. So, you know, it became
15:53
something that, you know, you start looking at the science and
15:56
I was always a science fan and then the human body just always
15:58
intrigued me. And so I was always trying to
16:01
find ways, even at a young age, how to get the most out of your
16:03
body. Sounds like you understood
16:06
compartmentalism. You know, compartmentalization.
16:11
As a young person, that's hard to get it.
16:13
You know, as an adult, it sounds like as a kid you're understood
16:16
like OK if I'm doing this I'm going to focus on this.
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That probably helped you with your multi sports as well.
16:20
When you're a basketball season, you probably just focused on
16:23
basketball and then when you got the track started, thinking.
16:25
About track. Yeah.
16:26
No, that that was that was a big thing.
16:28
I I had to, I had to lock in. And there's ways that I can kind
16:31
of separate it because when I was even playing basketball, I
16:33
was still helping coach track because I never got a chance to
16:35
do indoor season. But I would go out there and
16:38
help a lot of the athletes in in College in during the indoor
16:40
season maybe when my when I didn't wasn't playing basketball
16:43
when I wasn't having practice or I had some off time.
16:45
So I still wanted to kind of get involved with it because I knew
16:48
once the season ended I was going to be back on the track
16:51
and and then I'm I'm back with that team.
16:53
So it was you know it was always a unique challenge blend things
16:58
that I that I that I like I said but once again it was all fun
17:01
you know it just grew up in an era where everything we did was
17:03
outside. Everything we did was playing.
17:05
Everything we did was in some I lived in a cul-de-sac and we
17:08
turned into two hoops full court and we did it on rollerblades.
17:11
We did it on everything like it just we we just turned outside
17:14
into just like our own version of amusement park.
17:17
And so it was it was, it was, it was it was it was felt weird not
17:20
having that kind of that version in real life when I became
17:23
became older. So let's transition to college.
17:26
I I actually like that you went to three different colleges.
17:29
We'll explore that because I'm not a fan of the demonization
17:32
that we have today because of the transfer portal of kids
17:36
transfer and we'll we'll get to that topic.
17:37
But what I'm curious about non athletically as you were looking
17:41
to go into school, you mentioned some of the schools you're
17:44
looking at and you ended up starting out at Southern down
17:47
over in Louisiana. What were you thinking
17:49
academically in like, career wise?
17:53
Yeah, I I always knew I wanted to coach.
17:55
Is that right? Yeah, it's I.
17:57
So I was, I was in. I was social science education
18:00
major and I knew that route was something I from AI don't know.
18:05
I just, I was inspired by so many coaches and I just like
18:09
that part where it's almost like you have an opportunity to
18:12
change somebody's path. And I and I came from incredible
18:16
family and it wasn't like a a coach had to kind of direct me
18:19
to. But the coaches I saw that the
18:21
the, the impact they made on other people and they also, they
18:24
obviously made them on me myself as well.
18:26
But I saw the impact they could make.
18:28
I saw how sports changed people who I thought were going down
18:30
the wrong path. And all of a sudden I'm like,
18:32
wait a second. This kid is now saying, yes Sir
18:34
and lining up and and run until he throws up.
18:38
And this kid wouldn't listen to anybody, wouldn't listen to his
18:40
mom in the front yard. And all of a sudden this guy is
18:42
like hugging and crying and holding a grown man because we
18:45
just won something. And so I started realizing the
18:48
impact that sport really can have on people and and what
18:52
coaches mean to people. And then I started realizing
18:54
that the people that had the biggest influence, I started
18:56
thinking back to my 3rd grade year in PE.
18:59
I'm like man, this I remember this guy and I'm like I'm
19:02
looking him up. And then I remember my 5th grade
19:04
PE teacher when I had to switch elementary's because the result
19:06
I'm like everybody had a big impact.
19:08
Yeah I had science teachers, had math teachers, but that the
19:10
coaches are the people that kind of help grow you athletically
19:14
and and mentally and and and physically they they played a
19:18
big impact. So I knew that was a route I
19:20
wanted to go. It shifted later once I started
19:23
going to the college level because I'm like, Oh, no, I want
19:26
to do this thing at the college level, you know, You know, so I
19:28
switched from a social science education major to a kinesiology
19:32
major because I'm like, this human body is unique and and and
19:36
the opportunity to coach. And I started seeing that you
19:38
can still have that same kind of influence at the collegiate
19:41
level because we're just 13th graders.
19:42
I mean, it's not you get to college, you're not grown,
19:45
you're you're you're just you're just an extension of high
19:47
school. So I'm like, I can still make
19:48
that to make that impact. But I went through everything.
19:51
I went through, you know, from the education standpoint, the
19:54
student teaching, all that kind of stuff.
19:55
I was ready to walk out there with an education degree and
19:58
then I flipped it last minute because I'm like, I got an
20:01
opportunity. I still got a fifth year.
20:03
I'm going to go ahead to get this kinesiology major.
20:05
I have no intentions of probably coaching in high school anymore.
20:08
And so it it worked out well that way.
20:11
I like how you put that, that we're just 13th graders.
20:13
That's an important lesson for all of us, not just coaches
20:17
parents, the kids themselves that it's not just they flip
20:20
just because they go from high school to college that they're
20:22
grown adults. They're still growing into being
20:25
adults. I I like that.
20:26
That's really that kind of struck me as I have a a 7th
20:29
grade son as my oldest. So we're we're you know I I have
20:32
this like idea of like oh he's going to go to high school
20:34
automatically. He's you know he's he's a more
20:35
of a man now because he goes to high school.
20:37
He's like yeah you know what it's just another year.
20:38
Just last year he was in 8th grade, you know.
20:40
Yeah, that's interesting. So, you know, from pretty early
20:44
on you want to be a coach, you kind of thought, you know,
20:47
because it was the example in front of you thought, OK,
20:48
teaching and coaching in the high school level.
20:50
And then as you got to college, like, oh, wait a minute, there's
20:52
a whole different level of coaching as well.
20:54
And I want to go there. So you started out with Southern
20:56
and then so talk to me about this transfer because not just
20:58
only transferring from NCAA level to NAI level, which, you
21:04
know, that happens every day. That's not necessarily unusual,
21:08
but it sounds like you are, I'm going to call you a southern
21:10
boy, you know Houston area, Southern University and then you
21:14
go to Idaho. I mean that that has there has
21:17
to be some culture shock there. How did that transition go
21:21
regardless that athletically just, I don't want to say
21:23
fitting in, but them fitting into everything, just culture,
21:26
everything's different up there versus growing up in the Houston
21:29
area. Yeah it it was the first time I
21:32
think I had a true appreciation for like a college town a
21:37
different setting because everything is just so
21:39
fast-paced. I mean from Houston and and and
21:42
all my families from New Orleans.
21:43
I'm you know the only reason I'm I'm the only person in my family
21:46
that was that was truly raised in Houston area because
21:49
everybody in my family is is New Orleans born, raised everything
21:52
else. My dad took a job out in
21:54
Houston. Weird thing.
21:55
I was born in Detroit because he was training in Detroit to take
21:58
the job in Houston. So I I lived in two areas that
22:01
that really kind of separated from the family a little bit.
22:04
But my mom and dad, everybody's Louisiana and everybody started
22:07
shifting to more Houston, TX, definitely post Katrina and
22:10
everything else like that. And so it was it was one of
22:14
those it was one of those weird things when I went there, just
22:17
the eye opening thing, it was obviously much slower place
22:20
pace. I mean Boise ID was right down
22:22
the road, 20 minutes down the road.
22:24
We actually held a national championship pack there in Napa
22:26
One one of those years. And and but it when I got there,
22:29
it was just like, OK, this is I knew the Southern hospitality.
22:32
I knew that friendliness to it. It was just really unique going
22:36
to every single grocery store and literally everybody speaking
22:39
to you, everybody talking to you.
22:40
It was almost like you walk around and maybe because I was a
22:42
6 foot 5, 200 LB black dude walking in Nampa ID, everybody
22:46
decided to speak to me. But it was just like, I've
22:49
never, I felt friendly before, but I've never felt that
22:52
friendly. And then it was a liberal arts
22:53
university, so it was. I wasn't I didn't grow up in the
22:56
Nazarene church or anything like that but you know now I'm going
22:59
to a Chapel you know multiple times a week and I'm learning
23:02
different type of things. I'm getting involved with
23:04
different and so it just it was a way that it just challenged
23:06
me. I mean I'm taking I'm taking
23:08
courses now that are kind of breaking down every single book
23:11
of the Bible and doing this and and it was and I grew up in a
23:14
church so that was that was that wasn't it wasn't it wasn't
23:17
anything different to me but it was just unique being in that in
23:19
the school setting and and still mixing that with athletics and
23:23
studies and everything else. So you know it just really
23:26
opened my eyes to what the, the, the, the college experience was
23:29
about and how different it was for everybody.
23:31
Because now that I've been at A Division One I've I've been to a
23:36
summer school out of junior college.
23:37
Now I'm at an AIA school that's just just transitioning to D2.
23:42
It's it was unique thing to be able to see everything but also
23:46
understand from the ground roots of how to work at it.
23:48
Like nothing was handed to you, nothing was easy.
23:50
You had to fundraise. You had to beg for a pair of
23:53
spikes. You had to you know you know
23:55
some things that you take for granted.
23:56
Now it's just you had an opportunity to really have to
23:59
earn those things and work for those things in and fundraise
24:02
for those type of things, even at Sam Houston State, you know,
24:05
So it was it, it allowed me, I think it really shaped me to
24:09
kind of who I am and and what I am in coaching today and kind of
24:12
how I appreciate. I want to say every level, every
24:15
coaching and and every, every background they come from.
24:18
Yeah, that's that's really important.
24:20
Sounds like you have A at least a medium sized family, but at
24:23
least a pretty close family. You know, you already mentioned
24:26
aunts and family and parents, things like that.
24:28
Any homesickness. It was.
24:32
It was. I don't know.
24:34
I don't. I think I had such an
24:35
independence at that age. It really wasn't.
24:39
And once you know it's it's even now when I travel doing you
24:42
know, granted, I'm now I'm away from my family.
24:44
I'm away from my kids and I travel a lot.
24:46
But you know I think I raised it the same way I coach.
24:49
Coach. It's like you coaching
24:50
independence. They're not tied and drawn just
24:52
to being stuck to dad. And there's times where I can be
24:55
in the same house and I purposely give them their own
24:58
space. And my kids kind of work in the
24:59
and that's kind of how I was kind of raised.
25:02
And so it gave me that same feeling and my dad kind of
25:04
pushed it on to me. So it was never one of them.
25:06
Sad goodbyes is like, this is, this is your next step of your
25:09
journey and if you want to accomplish the things you want
25:11
to accomplish you go wherever you have to go to get it done
25:14
and and and and that that that probably you always have your
25:18
time. I think the first time I was
25:19
homesick when I had a birthday and it's a September birthday
25:22
and so you just now starting school and nobody really knows
25:25
you so they don't know September, your birthday.
25:27
So I'm just like, this is the first time.
25:29
Like man, I miss everybody telling me happy birthday and
25:32
cell phones weren't as popular then.
25:33
Yeah, that's. What I was thinking, I was like,
25:35
we're still, we're still in an era at this point where, you
25:38
know, e-mail is not really existent, cell phones are not
25:40
existent. Yeah, it's still hard to
25:41
communicate. So, so it's just like I'm stuck
25:43
in a room. Like I wish I could tell
25:45
everybody, but then it feels weird.
25:46
Hey, today's my birthday. Every day is my birthday.
25:47
So that was the first time I had that moment.
25:51
But other than that, no. I've always had a level of
25:54
independence that kept me in my own little comfort zone.
25:57
It's interesting how you answer that because we think of
26:00
homesickness as like, well, if you're not homesick, what's
26:03
wrong with you? But I have a lot of the same
26:05
feelings the way how you described as well.
26:08
It's like just because I don't trying to be back home doesn't
26:11
mean I don't love home or the people of home.
26:14
So it's almost feels like sometimes when when you ask that
26:17
question and they and they don't have homesickness they feel bad
26:19
answering well no I didn't like something's wrong with it's like
26:21
no no that's just that's how it is.
26:23
That's OK you're raised independent and and that's a
26:25
good thing. I mean ultimately when we as
26:27
parents, when we talk about our children, we're like we talk
26:29
about raising them to be independent in little humans.
26:32
But then we kind of get feel bad when we didn't act that way.
26:35
When we, you know, in the opportunities and situations we
26:37
find ourselves in, that's interesting.
26:39
OK, so but you did, you come back, you go down to Huntsville,
26:43
TX, to Sam Houston. How did you get back?
26:46
What were there any reservations?
26:48
You know, I'm going to ask the opposite of homesickness now.
26:51
Any reservations of coming back closer to home?
26:53
Not home necessarily, but closer to home to Sam Houston.
26:57
No, there that was the the excitement part thing because
26:59
that's when I knew I was full track and field mode then it's
27:03
almost like the conversations leading up to it and I kind of
27:06
you know I expressed it because at the time it was it was Greg
27:08
Kinsey who was who was the coach at the time.
27:10
He's he had he he was the the one kind of driving that whole
27:16
program and helping build it and and then that's when Curtis
27:19
Carter took over later but it I knew I was going to move more
27:23
into a coaching role. I knew I had that feeling like
27:26
this would be a a a quicker stepping stone for me to get to
27:30
where I want to be. Also it was you know it was
27:32
close to Houston. It's close you know I was an
27:34
hour and some change away from from my hometown and and so it
27:38
and I wasn't looking for it for that reason but it it really fit
27:41
without what I was looking for And and once again it was an
27:45
opportunity to kind of continue to grow and that's when I start
27:47
taking on the combined events start training as a decathlete
27:50
and you know like I said because I couldn't it was hard to do
27:52
that as a basketball player because you have no fall
27:54
training and Nelson you're trying.
27:56
But I still did it. I still started and kind of
27:58
incorporating that, but it was, you know, it's my second year to
28:00
really kind of just fully get engulfed in that and start
28:03
really learning about the sport and and learning how to get the
28:07
most out of my body and and the abilities that I had, the size
28:10
that I had and all that kind of stuff.
28:12
Yeah, this sounds like a big leap forward at a very young age
28:15
into coachdom. You talked about you did your
28:17
level one, for crying out loud at at this point.
28:20
That's something that you normally do once you're
28:22
graduating. You're in grad school or your
28:24
first, you know, assistance job. You were full bore.
28:27
Like, OK, I'm learning a lot from Coach Collier and I'm going
28:30
to go to Level 1. Yeah, no, I was, I was reading
28:33
manuals and doing things like that from all his Level 3 work.
28:36
I mean, that's how I started everything.
28:37
I think I still have. I still have all the copies.
28:40
Everything is ever give me every copy I've ever made because
28:42
that's where it really started connecting some dots to me, You
28:45
know, it's like, OK, this makes sense.
28:47
I've always felt this and I do this and I don't know the way I
28:49
see a movement or the way I see an event.
28:51
It's kind of a choreography. And when that choreography is
28:54
off, you see it and sometimes people look at things as
28:57
segmented parts and I just never really looked at the sport that
29:01
way. It's a dance.
29:01
It's a movement and you're trying to get people to try and
29:04
get similar to that and and this world knows that it's TikTok,
29:06
you know, all that kind of stuff, people doing these dances
29:08
and people doing all these type of things.
29:09
It it amazes me the talent these these young men and women have.
29:14
But I'm like if they can learn a dance they saw on on the
29:16
Internet in about a day or two. It's like got to find a way to
29:20
teach them how to do these three move 33 contacts on the ground
29:23
or run this curve and go over a bar.
29:25
Like in my mind is like we have to find almost like an athletic
29:29
version of TikTok you know and so that's how the that's how the
29:32
science of the sport started making sense to me and how you
29:35
train the body how you develop the body And and and I learned a
29:37
lot of that biggest because I think I was always fan of
29:39
science. I was always a fan of the human
29:41
body and the study of human movement and things like that
29:43
not kinesiology because it was a PE degree.
29:45
I was really interested because I'm like this is a this is this
29:48
is intricate like I liked the you know anatomy, Physiology, I
29:52
like physics. I really it spoke to me in a way
29:55
that I that I understood. So probably like for people who
29:58
coding, it looks like complete gibberish and but to them it
30:01
looks like a full picture and that's what the science started
30:03
looking like to me. Yeah, that's a good analogy.
30:06
I like that one. Because yeah, me and you maybe
30:08
look at computer code, it's like, OK, I have no idea.
30:10
A coder looks at and goes, yeah, this is what creates this image
30:13
and what makes this function, Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
30:16
And you're doing this. You're still competing during
30:19
this time at Sam Houston? Yeah, you know, and I wouldn't,
30:23
you know, I'm not going to, you know, diminish my coach's role.
30:26
I wouldn't be coach, but I could always tell because he knew what
30:29
I wanted to do. He always put me in positions to
30:31
kind of lead different things and to.
30:33
And you know, if we had to do something that was on your own,
30:36
I was going to take that group and lead it and I was going to
30:38
do this part. And I and I know I knew I had a
30:41
fifth year to kind of really knock this thing out and then I
30:44
was going to transition straight into coaching.
30:46
We've already had those conversations and was already
30:48
making those kind of plans. And so my level of focus and
30:51
attention to detail was, was sky high because I'm like I don't
30:54
want to screw this thing up when they give me this opportunity.
30:57
And you had the world's well. You had the world's best
31:00
internship for coaching, no? Seriously, it was, it was it was
31:05
fortunate. But I think now that I'm I'm in
31:07
this position now. It's like when you when you come
31:09
across somebody that you here and has a passion for coaching,
31:12
you immediately put them in different positions.
31:15
Anytime I'm working with an athlete that says they want to
31:17
coach one day, I immediately put them in different positions
31:20
because I know how valuable that can be to learning this thing
31:23
early, getting a handle in early and taking a little bit of a
31:26
leadership role. And not just the captain's role
31:29
or put AC on their uniform, but really put in position.
31:31
Hey, do me a favor. Take this group, bring them
31:33
through this core routine and y'all go ahead head over to the
31:35
weight room and and just watch this and watch that for me.
31:38
I got you coach. You like there's just like
31:40
they're they're locked in. They they have that.
31:42
They're like a sponge at that time and so you want to just
31:44
pour as much as you can into them.
31:45
And I was that way. And I was fortunate to have
31:48
coaches and and mentors and and people that that would let me
31:51
bug them all the time about questions about the sport.
31:54
Yeah, I was. I was going to go right to where
31:56
you just went there at the end too, you know.
31:57
Shout out to the coaches because you know, ego's not bad, bad.
32:01
Ego is bad. It would be very easy for the
32:04
coaches to have bad ego of like, hey man, you're the you're the
32:08
student, you're the athlete, you're the kid.
32:10
Shut up and do the workouts. I'm the coach.
32:14
Sure you want to be a coach one day in the future.
32:16
You can do what you want, but you're going to listen to me
32:18
instead. Sounds like you had a much more
32:22
collaboration type of like, OK, I you want to be this.
32:25
I can see that in you. So therefore I'm going to help.
32:30
I don't want to say blessed, but like grow it.
32:33
Then we're going to see because you know it was kind of a tryout
32:35
too. If you know, you could say all
32:37
those things, but if you didn't do them, it's like well, hey
32:38
James, you say you want to be a coach but you know you're not
32:41
even running these guys through the warm up.
32:42
When I ask you or or what, you know that's there's a lot of
32:46
lessons there of coach to athlete relationship, not coach
32:49
to athlete parking orders. You know, do what I tell you to
32:54
do that's that's interesting. So you finish your undergrad
32:57
degree and then what's the first step of?
32:59
I'm going to call it, quote UN quote, actual coaching, paid
33:01
coaching or graduate assistant coaching?
33:03
What was? The first it was, it was it was
33:06
Sam Houston yeah. So I jumped in that role and it
33:08
was a it wasn't Aga position it was a coaching time obviously
33:12
we're not we're not fully staffed it's not 6 coaches.
33:14
So I I have a coaching role I I I'm still heavily involved in
33:17
the in the kinesiology department.
33:19
So I take Aga through there and I start teaching and and and
33:22
assisting in that area. So I teach a couple classes in
33:24
the university and I'm also working at the outlet mall down
33:29
the road in Conroe and then I'm also coaching.
33:31
So it's just that cycle of like you know if you're you're kind
33:34
of a broke young coach and and at the time and and and that
33:37
time it's you're not getting paid a ton of money.
33:39
So you're still trying to make everything work.
33:41
And so I just kind of mixed all those three and and did those
33:44
type of things that make it work.
33:45
But that gave me my first time kind of full autonomy over over
33:50
a group and got me gave me an opportunity to kind of you know
33:53
the the the learn the insurance and outs and still once again
33:55
not thinking I'm super coaching going out there.
33:56
I know what I'm doing now but it's just once again I had the
33:59
opportunity to really learn from a collective group of people.
34:02
I got a chance to go dive in and now I'm going doing Level 2 in
34:05
Starkville Ms. and as is as a 23 year old a 24 year old now.
34:10
So I'm I'm kind of continue to progress and and and all these
34:14
type of things and and really kind of diving into the sport.
34:17
You did your level 2 in Starkville.
34:20
Yes. Yeah, that's when I was there.
34:22
Yeah, OK. Yeah.
34:24
I I I did the ITC course and the MULTIS course.
34:30
That was like, Oh yeah, my third one, I think.
34:33
But we hosted, you know, when I was coach at Mississippi State.
34:35
I didn't. That's so funny that you were
34:37
there. What?
34:38
You know, you you've been at some, you know, Nampa and
34:42
Huntsville, TX, even in some small places that that was a big
34:44
complaint about bringing Level 2 to Stark Vegas maybe was, you
34:47
know, it was hard to get to. There was nothing there,
34:50
etcetera. How how did you like Starkville,
34:52
man? Come on.
34:52
Well, I mean, that was my hometown for two years.
34:54
I loved it. It's the it's the crazy thing.
34:57
You, you, you. Because everybody says what
34:58
they're going to say about different towns and different
35:00
cities. Just like I lived in Lubbock for
35:01
nine years and I thought that's one of the greatest cities on
35:04
the planet because I really, it fit me.
35:06
But when I went out there, it's just I I just, I was more
35:09
intrigued about me moving back to a bunk bed in between
35:12
sessions and doing study groups and that, like, I never had a
35:16
chance to see star, 'cause when I got there I was so locked in
35:19
like, I'm about to do this thing.
35:20
I'm about to aces thing. I'm about to learn everything.
35:22
I'm about to get everything I can out of it.
35:23
So I don't have any memory outside of where we did our
35:26
classes and where I was in this dorm and that's kind of what it
35:31
what my memory was. But at the same time, that was
35:34
one of my first kind of let's get out and move and do some
35:37
track and field, Let's move here.
35:38
It's a little bit further because when you're in smaller
35:40
schools, everything you're doing is kind of regionally, you're
35:42
kind of staying right there, you're a bus ride away.
35:44
And so hopping out there to me was just it was exciting and I
35:47
and I still don't think I've been back well.
35:49
I've been at one other time since, but it was it was a great
35:52
experience. I think it that that was what
35:54
probably helped land me my my next, my next job.
35:58
Did you do jumps or sprints for that level?
36:00
I did jumps so Boo Schexnayder. And.
36:03
Probably. Maybe Keba, Maybe Jim.
36:04
And I think it was both. I think that was Keba may have
36:07
been one of his first time. That was his first time ever
36:11
teaching in that session. So yeah, he was.
36:13
He was part of that. And it was, it was to me.
36:16
It was incredible. Incredible that.
36:17
So my first level two was, was jumps and Boo as well over
36:22
actually Back your way was at Boise.
36:24
It was my my very first one. Yeah.
36:26
And I remember, you know I was a sprints hurdles guy so I wanted
36:29
to do sprints and hurdles. That's what I was going to lock
36:32
in and that's what I was going to be.
36:33
And I remember Mike Corn, you know the coordinator back then
36:36
called me and said, hey, it's all full.
36:38
But, but I do have a spot in jumps and I was like, man, I
36:40
don't want to do jumps. I'm not a jumps coach, you know,
36:42
all this kind of stuff. And Mike was like, hey, trust
36:45
me, you'll learn a lot about sprints and hurdles as well in
36:49
the jumps. And so I did it.
36:50
And I look back now and I'm like, thank God I did jumps for
36:54
my first one. The very next year I did sprints
36:57
with the Coach Shaver and Coach Twinkler and stuff, and that was
37:00
amazing as well. But it changed my life.
37:04
It was, it was right in the middle.
37:05
I did. I coached for 10 years that
37:08
level two was right at my fifth year.
37:09
So it's literally right in the in the middle.
37:11
And if you look at the athletes that I produced my first five
37:14
years versus my last five years, night and day.
37:17
I mean night and day. So I love that you had that same
37:19
experience because that class was amazing.
37:22
Truly. Truly.
37:22
Oh yeah. This high level stuff.
37:24
And it's still, you know, still versions of it going to this
37:26
day. And yeah, I'm part of it.
37:27
I get to teach in it. I I get to instruct in it.
37:30
So it's kind of come full circle.
37:31
But no, that's and I said I, I still have my mentors today.
37:34
I remember sending, you know, the Blue Sexnator, my my fall
37:37
training every single year and let's go through this and let's
37:39
go through that. And you know, like I said, I was
37:41
just so eager to to figure this thing out, you know, and that's
37:44
really all you're trying to do is trying to figure it out a
37:46
little bit and find out how you can apply to what you do.
37:48
So, you know, it was, it was, it was fun.
37:50
That was that was my that was my start.
37:52
Love it. Love it.
37:52
So how long did you stay at Sam Houston on the Post Undergrad
37:57
Rules? And then where'd you go next?
37:59
That's. The that's the unique part.
38:00
It happened so quick so I'm there basically a year and a
38:05
half and then the big shift happens at TCU and and coach
38:11
Darryl Anderson takes over at TCU and it's kind of like I'm
38:13
right now. It's a December move.
38:15
He goes and starts his staff and and it it's it's weird because
38:20
one of my study groups who I was one of the organizers I'm
38:22
getting these study groups together.
38:23
We're going to ace this test. I'm thinking this thing is, you
38:25
know this level 2 is everything. But one of my people in the
38:29
study group was DeAndre Hills 17 time national champion All
38:32
American LSU and she's one of his first hires at TCU and and
38:38
we were one of those we're you know that's where I didn't know
38:41
who she was at the time. She knew I was but we were just
38:43
hammering this stuff. She was in the same course and
38:46
then I guess when they you know they get ready to get going they
38:49
throw in you know throw some names in the hat.
38:51
We need we need to jumps coach. We need this.
38:52
She's like, I guess she threw it out there like you got to talk
38:55
to this kid like he's he's young.
38:57
He's just getting going. He hasn't done this that.
38:59
But you need to have a conversation with them.
39:02
And I remember I was on my way to Houston.
39:03
I get a call from Darrell Anderson and this is I've never
39:06
interviewed for a job and I just remember him grilling me.
39:10
I mean tell me your top five recruits in the state tell me
39:13
your this. Tell me your that.
39:15
And at the time I was just one of them kind of crazy nuts.
39:17
Anyway, I had a top 10 for every event I had this thing locked
39:21
in. I had written left.
39:22
I'm recruiting kids. I have no business recruiting at
39:25
Sam Houston. I'm like, I'm just going all in.
39:27
And so when he called me, I was probably one of the most
39:29
prepared people for an interview You could ever happened.
39:31
Like what about this kid? Would you recruit him?
39:33
Well, no, I probably recruit him.
39:34
So I've already talked to his coach.
39:35
He's probably got to go to JUCO because this, this, that and
39:37
that. Well, this kid, I would talk to
39:39
you because it's only a second year, blah, blah, blah, blah.
39:41
And so this is now I'm not even having jumps conversation.
39:43
I'm telling what sprinters he needs to go sign and what he
39:45
needs to go do. And I'm obviously not cheating
39:47
because I'm literally driving a car right now.
39:49
So I'm not like I'm Googling this.
39:51
You know, I'm and so I go from like, yeah, I have no shot at
39:54
this thing. I'm not getting this job because
39:56
there's probably other other people.
39:58
But either I was willing to take the least amount of money or
40:01
whatever it may be, but somehow I landed at TCU during that
40:03
transition and and that's where I got a chance to kind of get my
40:07
hands on some, you know, elite, high caliber athletes and still
40:11
dealing with that transition because at the time they were
40:13
going through some sanctions and we couldn't go post season.
40:16
So it was a. It was a.
40:17
It was a big transition, but that's where I think I became.
40:22
I got a chance to really kind of go on my own, you know, stand on
40:24
my own 2 feet and say you can I really do this coaching thing I
40:28
want to point out. A really valuable lesson there,
40:31
you know, one of the goals of the podcast is also to bring
40:34
immense value to those who listen.
40:36
You know, we, we have a lot of different constituency
40:39
constituencies that cannot speak today that listen to the podcast
40:42
and one of those groups is young people in high school and
40:45
college that have an interest in coaching at some point.
40:48
So I always like to bring as much value as possible.
40:50
The lesson that you, you you just brought up there is about
40:55
networking and you know, networking something that's
40:57
really important to me. I have a passion for it because
41:00
I like to teach networking correctly.
41:02
So we think about the USATF convention, we think about level
41:07
twos and things like that. We're like, oh, networking, I'm
41:09
going to go there and I'm going to Hobnob.
41:10
I'm going to meet James Thomas, I'm going to meet Mouse Holloway
41:13
and that's how I'm going to get a job.
41:16
And that's not the right way. Networking is really about what
41:18
value can you bring to other people so that they you're top
41:21
of mind when an opportunity comes available.
41:23
And that example you gave, you didn't know who Deandra Hill
41:25
was. You didn't know that she was
41:27
going to be at TCU and that they were going to, you were just
41:29
like, OK, we're locked in. We're going to nail this level
41:31
two thing. So you brought value of just
41:33
being yourself and and helping push forward the project.
41:36
And then when she gets to TCU and her and DA are talking, it's
41:39
like, hey, you know, I remember this guy from Level 2.
41:42
We we we should be talking to this guy let's let's find out
41:45
you didn't you didn't try to meet DeAndre Hill or DA or I
41:48
mean I was there at Starkville there were tons of great coaches
41:50
there. You didn't try to go meet them
41:52
and you know get them on your resume that you know the quote
41:55
UN quote traditional network and that that that is a really big
41:58
lesson for you guys and gals that are going to clinics and
42:01
the convention and level twos blessed do that.
42:04
You you need to do that for your own education.
42:07
Bring value to others. That's how they're going to.
42:10
I remember you. That's how you're going to be
42:11
top of mind when the opportunity comes going up and just trying
42:15
to, you know, I'm going to use the words hobnob and you know
42:20
try to impress other people to try to get a job or try to get
42:23
their name on your resume. I'm sorry guys like James Thomas
42:27
and Mouse and DeAndre and DA, they all see through that.
42:30
It's what can you do to help them in their program with their
42:33
future programs that they're at. So I just want to point that
42:35
out. That was a really great lesson
42:37
there. I love that.
42:38
So you go to TCU now little different TCU and what I mean by
42:43
that for for several reasons, right, TCU it's, it's the campus
42:46
itself is a very unique campus and I I mean that in positive
42:49
ways, but it's different TCU is different than Texas and and
42:52
Florida etcetera. But now you're at I'm doing air
42:55
quotes here quote UN quote, the big time meaning there's a
42:57
different caliber of athlete like you said when you're at Sam
43:00
Houston, you're like, yeah, I was probably recruiting kids and
43:02
I probably had no business and we understand.
43:05
I think we understand what you mean by that.
43:06
Now you're at TCU. How did you adjust to that
43:10
caliber? How did you adjust, You know, I
43:11
know DA very well, love him to death.
43:14
You know he's a, he's a a certain type of head coach as
43:17
well for your assist as an assistant.
43:19
You've got to be copacetic with him and the rest of the staff.
43:21
How did you adjust to this this first full time job?
43:25
You know it was it. Was a.
43:27
It was a unique transition because obviously it's kind of
43:29
like now you hit the ground running because you need to get
43:31
there. It's it's, it's go time.
43:32
It's not your fall training. It's not this.
43:34
It's you're taking a bunch of kids that have already been
43:36
doing something. You're trying to rebuild them
43:39
back up, bring a positiveness to it and and get ready to go
43:42
attack it. But it was just unique because
43:44
we were all kind of scurrying, doing our own thing.
43:46
But that's when I I kind of got heavily into the recruiting part
43:49
of it. So that transition was fun for
43:51
me and I recruited for for for all the event area so if you
43:55
know guy at home visits in California that was my first
43:58
time getting to travel to start traveling the country to go try
44:00
and find the best talent. And so now I felt like there was
44:03
no limit on what I could the recruiting didn't change from a
44:06
Sam Houston to this but it's just how far I can reach out.
44:10
It start starts to change and in the in the level of who will
44:14
just not shut the door on me immediately changed And so that
44:18
was that was fun for me that's when I really started to kind of
44:21
get a grasp of that and start to realize that there is a power in
44:25
a logo because nobody obviously knew who I was.
44:27
I didn't walk in there oh James Thomas I can't believe he's in
44:29
my house like they had no clue who I was but I had the backing
44:33
of a of a logo that people knew and they knew those flying frogs
44:36
at the time and and so I could I could I could get out to
44:39
California. I could get out to to Florida
44:41
and people like, OK, let's talk. Let me hear what you have to
44:43
say. And so that was a I'll go ahead.
44:46
Well, I was going to ask because and I'm.
44:48
A share a story with the the question how did your ego work
44:52
to that? And what what I mean by that is
44:54
so similar. My first job wasn't the quote UN
44:56
quote big time, but I eventually worked it myself my way up to
44:59
Mississippi State. That was my whole goal, was to
45:01
get to the SEC And of course we're going to have to talk
45:02
about that by the way, to the SEC.
45:05
And I remember thinking because I yeah, I worked at Ball State
45:08
University. I worked at Neosho Community
45:09
College. I worked at Troy University, you
45:11
know, small schools that I had to explain where Troy University
45:14
was, where Ball State was all this kind of yes, where D1, you
45:17
all those kind of things. I go to Mississippi State and my
45:20
thinking is like, oh, well, everybody knows Mississippi
45:22
State because of Saturday, because of the football games,
45:24
you know, And I and I remember I was like, oh, this is going to
45:26
be so much easier to recruit. I knew I had to recruit a
45:29
different level of athlete, but I was like, it's going to be
45:31
easier. And I remember one of the first
45:33
kids that I recruited was a kid named Elsie Coleman.
45:36
He ended up setting the high school national record in the
45:38
400. And you know, Elsie and I strike
45:40
up a good relationship. And I remember asking him one
45:43
day as we were starting to work on visits.
45:45
I was like, well, hey, you know, Elsie, who else are you talking
45:47
to? Who else are you going to visit?
45:49
And he's like, Oh yeah, yeah, Florida.
45:51
USCI, think TCU at the time. And I can't remember the 4th.
45:56
Baylor. It was Baylor.
45:58
And I was like, oh, crap, this didn't get like, my ego was
46:02
like, oh, this is going to be so much easier.
46:05
Slap in the face of like, oh crap, you got to go beat your
46:07
mentor mouse. By the way, you got to go beat
46:10
LA. I'm in stark Vegas, love it and
46:12
all, but it is not LA. Oh, I got to go beat 4 by 4.
46:15
You. I got to go beat.
46:17
You know, Coach Hart, this didn't get easier.
46:20
Oh my gosh, this just got harder.
46:22
How did you did? Do you have any stories of like,
46:26
Oh yeah, I thought, you know, Flying Frogs.
46:27
I can just barge right in and they're going to sign with me.
46:30
Yeah, one. 100% I mean it just recruiting doesn't it doesn't
46:34
get easier Now you once again if you're if you're if you're not
46:38
going after the the the huge fish the big fish yeah it's
46:41
sometimes it can be easier to get in the door and maybe not
46:44
have to battle just the the what you want to call the smaller
46:47
schools or the this or the that. But I, you know, I remember like
46:50
I said when I compare my time at at AT Sam, I'm Sam, he's in
46:54
state. I tried to make life difficult
46:56
for for every school, every program in the in the state.
46:59
I was like, I'm going to make it tough for Texas Tech.
47:01
I'm going to make it tough for everybody because at the end of
47:03
the day, you least better offer this kid some money because I'm
47:06
about to make it really difficult for you.
47:07
And I'm about to express to their parents why, why the value
47:10
of my scholarship is more important than the value of that
47:12
logo. And now once you get to that
47:14
logo, it's like, OK, now you're doing 2 parts, you're you're
47:18
still selling the value of that, that scholarship and you're
47:22
still trying to find a way to split it up and dice it up.
47:24
Because the higher you get, it seems like the more and more
47:27
they're trying to build depth and size and and and groups.
47:31
And so you're taking that 12.6 and it's it's getting a little
47:34
different. You're not you, you're not
47:36
rolling the dice all in on one person.
47:38
So it actually became a little bit weirder when it became
47:40
almost harder because you're I'm, I'm trying to sell you
47:43
because I'm in this wonderful logo.
47:45
I'm not investing you. I'm going to need you invest
47:47
about half of this into us and and so that the challenge became
47:51
a a little, a little more difficult.
47:52
But yeah, you go in there and like, OK, you, you see these
47:56
cards, you see these T-shirts. It wasn't social media post.
47:58
So I didn't know everybody I was visiting.
48:00
But you walk in there and kids that were that, that, that love,
48:03
this, this opportunity had every single letter sitting on the
48:05
table. And you start seeing all these
48:07
logos stretched all over your place and like, oh, I have my
48:10
work cut out for me, but then you, you know, this is the time
48:13
where you're calling, you're only allowed to call once a week
48:16
or twice a week or do this. And so I'm maxing out all those
48:19
kind of things. I'm trying to get to the point
48:21
where I'm building this rapport, building these relationships,
48:23
but at the, you know, I genuinely like people.
48:26
I liked hearing this story. So it never felt like a a hard
48:29
task. I really got to know people,
48:30
even if I wasn't going to coach him, it was just recruiting
48:33
became something that was like building relationships and the
48:35
opportunity to potentially you see them through to another
48:38
level you you get to guide them to maybe being that next
48:41
Olympian, that next medalist or whatever.
48:42
So it it became, it was a weird hunt and you know, I don't know,
48:47
it's kind of a weird thing. It's, it's, it's And you knew
48:49
that whatever you did would hopefully benefit you and your
48:52
program, but ultimately benefit them even more.
48:55
And so I felt strongly when I stood behind into that kind of
48:58
thing. Yeah.
48:59
Thank you. Sorry, I was.
49:00
Interrupting there. No.
49:01
Yeah, that. That's what I talk about when I
49:03
talk about uniquenesses specifically of TCU small school
49:07
in the Dallas Metroplex, you know, Fort Worth area, very
49:11
expensive private school. You know, I tend to think I, I,
49:15
I, I think sometimes that we as coaches tend to think that the
49:18
other people have it easier. And what I mean by that is, and
49:21
I'll use the 2 examples you've given, just so I don't have to
49:24
worry about naming names a Sam Houston and a TCU, that Sam
49:27
Houston thinks, oh, you know, TCU and the like, they have it
49:31
so much easier. They kids just fond going to
49:34
school They'll just walk on at T They get you know 1050 kids to
49:38
walk on and it's like Oh yeah, you know to walk on at TCU
49:41
buddy, man that's expensive. And then the reverse.
49:44
I hear the exact reverse where a coach at like ATCU will say oh
49:48
man those quote UN quote small schools the Sam Houston's
49:51
etcetera. They got it.
49:52
So they'll just give full rides. I can't get a kid at this the
49:56
the dollar value that I got to be at there.
49:58
So he's and the truth of it is that both is true.
50:01
Both are hard to get a kid to sign a text at TCU and OU now is
50:07
extremely hard. Recruiting at Sam Houston is
50:10
extremely hard to recruiting at Northwest Nazarene.
50:14
There's so many choices out there and there's kind of both
50:17
things. There's a lot of scholarship
50:19
money available, but also not a lot of scholarship money
50:22
available. It is extremely hard every
50:26
single place. No one has it.
50:28
Hey, I know people think Mouse just gets to call a kid and say,
50:31
hey, when are you coming? Even Mouse has to work extremely
50:34
hard to get kids at Gainesville. Same with the US CS and LA,
50:40
Texas's, etcetera. There's just too many good
50:42
people recruiting coaches and there's too many good schools.
50:47
And fortunately or unfortunately, because it would
50:49
probably not be great if if the reverse what I'm about to say is
50:51
true, not a lot of great kids. You know, what I'm talking about
50:55
is we need more. You know, the 110 flat kids
50:59
coming out of high school? That would probably be bad for
51:01
the sport as well though, by the way.
51:02
But it's just extremely, extremely tough.
51:05
And no one has it as good as you think they do.
51:08
If you're looking at the grasses green on their side, trust me,
51:10
that grass has to be mowed and manicured and that's not easy.
51:14
And vice versa. So cool.
51:15
I love that. Thank you for that.
51:17
So how long at TCU and how did it go?
51:19
I'm there two seasons. And and and it's it's weird
51:23
because I thought this is I'm I'm going to be here I'm ready
51:26
to settle down. I want to I want to I want to
51:28
find a house like I'm about to turn this thing back into.
51:32
But it's it's weird I I still stuck to this advice that
51:36
Darrell Anderson gave me when the Kentucky job had opened up
51:40
because he was previously at Kentucky he worked with Don
51:43
Webber and so they had a great relationship and he and and I
51:48
think he was kind of we had a great thing building great thing
51:50
going. But he he basically told me like
51:52
the only way to move up in this profession don't be like me in a
51:56
way he said don't be like me. The only way to move up is to
51:58
move out and you have an opportunity to basically double
52:01
your salary get in the SEC. You're this young.
52:03
You're only 2526 years old. Get opportunity to have full
52:06
autonomy over an SEC program. You'd be a fool not to take this
52:10
thing. And like I said, trust me when I
52:11
tell you the only way to move up is to move out.
52:13
As much as I want you here, this is the best move for you.
52:16
And that that that stuck with me.
52:18
And that's the same advice I've given to every volunteer coach
52:21
who's worked with me in the past and people I'm like, I'm not
52:23
saying you just want to go and bounce all over the place, but
52:26
it needs to be strategic. It needs to be planned.
52:28
It needs to be in a position where if you, if you, if you
52:30
want to think you're going to elevate yourself to where you
52:33
want to be, it's a lot harder to do it where you're at.
52:36
You have to kind of move into those kind of positions.
52:38
You can't just sit there and hope and pray that it happens.
52:41
And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hoping and
52:43
praying, but I'm saying you got to.
52:45
You also have the power to to to make these moves.
52:47
So when I go out to Kentucky and this is one of the weird things,
52:50
I still at this point I'm like, yeah, nobody knows my name.
52:52
I'm just been at TCU and this, that, whatever.
52:54
And I think I've been fortunate. I've been pretty good at the
52:57
interview process and I know other people that have applied
52:59
for them and but I went there and I was just my authentic self
53:02
and just kind of told them, you know, my goals, my ambitions,
53:04
what I want to do and what I think I could bring to the
53:06
program and how I'm going to approach it.
53:08
And here's, you know, at the time I had a list for
53:10
everything. I had a spreadsheet everything I
53:12
this is what this is my plan for this and that and and so when we
53:15
got there you know hit the ground running and that's when
53:18
once again I start thinking about my time of how many
53:20
incredible coaches I've worked with And you know I think of my
53:23
staff that that we work with at Kentucky.
53:26
I think every last one of them have been head coaches already
53:28
are head coaches now you know. So it's just it was just it was
53:32
just a great way to kind of jump you know throw yourself into the
53:35
the toughest league then and still you know now and and and
53:40
go battle with the big boys and I remember you know who's this
53:43
Kentucky team. Next thing you know we have a
53:45
track and field news #1 signing class in the country.
53:48
We have this going, we have that going and trying to build
53:50
something build something up. And that was where I think if I
53:54
learned something about who I am today I learned another version
53:57
of that there. Could you still take a logo that
54:00
was known for basketball and no football really.
54:03
And you, you, you try and make it something that becomes more
54:06
of a household name. And then when my boss retires
54:09
there, Don Weber, after 30 something years and I'm there
54:13
six years, he's looking at this new transition now again.
54:16
So you know it just, but I was able to I was able to learn a
54:18
lot of, you know, would jump in there and you know leave out
54:21
there with AI want to say a bunch to me, 7 or 8-9.
54:24
I think it was 9 conference champions and you know started
54:27
getting a kind of a boatload of little All Americans here and
54:30
there. So it became it became something
54:32
where you start putting the things that you think you know
54:35
to a talent level. That's that that's probably a
54:40
little higher to some people but it's that makes it no easier as
54:43
a coach you're now you're coaching ego.
54:45
You're coaching number one in a country kids.
54:47
You're coaching the ones who's had all the guru coaches leading
54:50
up and they're going to tell you that this is how it should be
54:52
done versus how you're going to do it.
54:53
So the IT doesn't get any easier at those levels.
54:56
But you you sometimes get a, you get that your starting point
55:00
gets the move up a little bit. I like how you talked about the.
55:03
SEC champions. I've had one.
55:06
The one is, it must be a long male, long jumper.
55:08
And I still lead with that with every conversation.
55:10
Like, well, you know, I coached an SEC champion.
55:12
That's a big deal, man. It was.
55:15
I love the. Example of selflessness from DA
55:18
there in regards to like, hey man, if you want to move up in
55:22
this, in this profession, the only way to move on this
55:23
profession is you got to move on.
55:26
I'm reminded of you know, we had Buchek Snyder on the podcast and
55:30
you know he was adamant about hey man, we don't pay our
55:32
coaches enough. If there's an opportunity for
55:34
you to make more, you got to do it.
55:36
And and one of the, I always put an asterisk to that because one
55:39
of the additions he talked about because we always say, well, you
55:41
know our kids. I'm sure when you were at TCU
55:44
like I had a pretty good group of kids and this kids going to
55:46
be an All American one day and this kids going to be a national
55:48
champ one day and we get to Kentucky and get to leave.
55:50
It's like, man, I had this group, there's always going to
55:52
be kids to leave, so bar none. And then he said this and this.
55:56
Really. I was like, Boo.
55:57
Like I'm not. You said the quiet part out
55:59
loud. I'm not sure that you're
56:00
supposed to say this, he goes. If you truly think, if you truly
56:04
say that you're doing this for the kids, how do you know you
56:06
leaving that a better coach for them?
56:08
That doesn't mean a better coach than you, a better coach for
56:10
them. It doesn't come in and take your
56:13
place and therefore they're better off.
56:14
And it's like, that's yeah, yeah, yeah, that's ego hitting.
56:17
It's like, my God, that's right. No, I'm the best coach for my
56:19
kids at all times. And it's like, well, maybe not.
56:21
Maybe there's a better someone who communicates with them than
56:23
their level better or whatever. So I just love that story of DA
56:28
of he could have been very selfish there.
56:32
And I'm going to say rightfully so of like, no, I don't want to
56:34
lose my jumps coach. He's doing a great job.
56:36
I love him. I know how to work with him and
56:38
he knows how to work with me. No, James, that's not a good
56:40
opportunity for you. You know, you're at the best
56:43
place. You know, he could have said a
56:44
lot of things. He could be recruiting you to
56:47
stay for his own good. And instead he was like, yeah,
56:50
you know what, Maybe this is what's best for you.
56:51
And you know, that sucks for me because I got to go out and find
56:53
another coach to replace you and things like that makes my life
56:56
harder as the head coach. But if this was right for you,
56:59
then this is what's right for you.
57:00
I love that, that we could learn more of that selflessness from
57:03
that example from DA Love them. And it's it's a weird story too.
57:06
Connecting to that because I don't know if this is, I don't
57:09
know if this makes me a good coach or bad.
57:11
I probably need to read. I probably need to reflect on
57:13
this what I'm about to tell you. But I mean.
57:16
If I have something I've been extremely proud of in my time,
57:19
because I've made moves and and everywhere I've been I try to be
57:21
there is I'm not going with the intention of moving on.
57:24
I was in Kentucky six years, Texas Tech nine years, and
57:27
Georgia was a shorter stint, probably one of the shortest
57:30
that I've had in my later careers until I took this role.
57:32
But I've always said this and and and because I think as a
57:36
coach we have to be selfless and we have to and the one, the one
57:39
staff that I love and even though I've moved.
57:41
I've never had an athlete transfer with me.
57:44
I've never ever taken I've never and and my athletes know that
57:48
I've always wanted them to be tied more to the university than
57:50
they are to me. I want them to understand that
57:52
this is their logo for life. This is mine for as long as I'm
57:55
employed here. And even if I've had parents
57:57
this is before it was illegal for somebody to be like, well if
58:00
you leave they're leaving with you.
58:01
And I would be honest with them like I'm not taking them.
58:03
You know I I think they need to stay there.
58:05
They need to finish their mission.
58:06
They came here for a degree. They told me they love this
58:08
university and if they came here and it's just strictly because
58:11
of me they came for the wrong reason And I'm still stuck by
58:14
that to I'm stuck by that to this to this day and I've never
58:18
and I've you know I think even with the the people I've worked
58:20
for I think they have an appreciation and hopefully
58:23
respect and trust in that that when I also when I've left the
58:25
program my goal was not to sabotage yours and and and and I
58:29
stood by that. I never held that as a ransom.
58:32
I've never held that as a bargaining pitch.
58:33
I've never held that as hey if I come here I'm I'm I'm come
58:36
bearing fruit like this these people are coming with me.
58:38
I've never had that conversation with a single employer a day in
58:40
my life And and I and I still stand by that you know to this
58:43
day because that's that's always been my coaching mentality.
58:46
You you you this is once again this can be your program for
58:49
life. You get to wear these colors,
58:51
these letters that you get, this letter jacket you're on, this
58:53
record books. You're business, all American.
58:56
Let them come in there and you know, induct you into the Hall
58:59
of Fame 1015 years from now. And I'm and I'm there, but but
59:02
finish, finish, finish the mission.
59:04
Now as the host I get to. Challenge people because it's my
59:06
show. I get to do whatever I want,
59:07
right? And sometimes you know we've
59:10
coaches are known for hyperbole. I I I want to ask that again
59:14
what you just said to confirm you've had zero kids transfer
59:19
with you when you've gone to a new job I've never had a single
59:22
kid come with. Me to a new that is an amazing
59:24
stat for a. Couple reasons.
59:25
I love how you did preface that of like.
59:27
I don't know if that makes me a good coach or a bad coach.
59:30
I love that because. You, you know, we talk about and
59:33
you know, I'm on Twitter every day, all day, right.
59:35
So there's that's where a lot of, I like it because there's a
59:37
lot of discussions there And the discussion is, you know, kids
59:40
make sure you're picking a school that's your school for
59:43
your academics etcetera. You know, 99.9 of us aren't
59:45
going pro and track and field. So you better go somewhere where
59:47
you love it, you're going to get a degree, it can move on for,
59:50
you know, a job, whether it's coaching or you know, owning a
59:52
business, whatever. And I think every college coach
59:56
would reflect that as well for where you're recruiting.
59:58
It's like yeah, you know, if I'm recruiting here, I think this is
59:59
the best school for you and you know, you got to make that
1:00:01
decision. But you know here's what here's
1:00:02
what we offer, etcetera, etcetera.
1:00:04
And then a coach you know, will take another job, which I have
1:00:07
no, nothing against, no judgment at all on that.
1:00:10
And then you know, but you should come with me because I,
1:00:12
you know you came to school for me to coach you, so you should
1:00:15
come with me. And I also have no judgement of
1:00:17
a kid transferring by the way. In fact I'm probably I probably
1:00:20
make a lot of coaches mad when I talk about transfer portal that
1:00:22
I don't care. I think they should all be able
1:00:24
to transfer just because just like every Johnny Chemistry
1:00:27
major and Lisa English major can transfer.
1:00:30
I don't care. I think a kid should transfer
1:00:31
for whatever reason. Doesn't matter anyway.
1:00:33
I didn't know that stuff on a coach.
1:00:35
No also saying that. As no.
1:00:37
Longer coaching. I'm pretty sure if I'd still
1:00:39
coaching today, I might have a different attitude.
1:00:40
But I love that attitude of yours, of I'm recruiting you for
1:00:46
the school in the program where I am now.
1:00:48
If I choose to go somewhere else for my own, you know, family,
1:00:51
whatever, it doesn't matter the reason.
1:00:53
Yeah, you chose that place. You should stay, or at least
1:00:55
actively try to stay. You know, see what the next
1:00:57
coach and do you still love the school, etcetera.
1:00:59
You make your own decisions. I think that makes you.
1:01:01
I don't know. I feel like it makes you if
1:01:04
you're actually standing behind what you represent, what you say
1:01:07
that you represent, that's the show me, not just tell me
1:01:11
attitude of of morals and character of the person who who
1:01:15
chooses to be the track coach. That's amazing.
1:01:16
James really is amazing. Just, I've just, I've always
1:01:19
felt. Like, like I said, if I'm
1:01:20
coaching athletes I've had, I've been blessed and fortunate to
1:01:23
coach some extremely talented, talented people.
1:01:26
And like I said if and and and and people a lot of my programs
1:01:29
have been a part of like they know like if you do interviews
1:01:33
like don't mention me, you you got your faith, your family your
1:01:35
own your own hard work. Like I've always wanted to kind
1:01:38
of. I've always enjoyed being in the
1:01:39
shadows of that kind of thing. Let let you you put in the work.
1:01:43
You put in a sweat. I write some stuff on a piece of
1:01:45
paper. I do some things like that which
1:01:47
is still I'm not trying to diminish what coaching is but we
1:01:50
we get that. We get these accolades based off
1:01:52
some extremely talented people, gifted people, people that
1:01:56
poured their heart and soul into this thing.
1:01:58
And so I'm. I've never been comfortable
1:02:01
accepting or taking the credit for any of it.
1:02:04
It's just, it's just it's never been a part of me.
1:02:05
It's not what drives me but drives me is that PR, that new
1:02:09
accomplishment that's something that you've never done.
1:02:11
Like I sleep better when somebody improves.
1:02:13
I have a list that I keep of every single person I've ever
1:02:17
coached in my entire career where they came at and where
1:02:19
they finished at and and I have about three or four names that
1:02:23
are in red out of about 200 and something that didn't improve.
1:02:26
And I have an Astrid by them. I coached them one year before I
1:02:28
left or they never got a chance to develop.
1:02:30
But you know it's I want to see progression.
1:02:33
I want to see growth and if I don't see us as as you know
1:02:36
consistent level of growth and and development then I'm
1:02:39
probably doing something wrong. Even if it's a lifestyle issue.
1:02:42
If it's a decision making issue if it's this it's that you know
1:02:45
I want people to leave there with degrees.
1:02:46
I want people to leave their improvements and and so I I try
1:02:49
and track all that stuff. Not because it's it's something
1:02:52
that I put on a resume. It's something that anybody ever
1:02:54
know. It's because that's how I sleep
1:02:55
better at night. You know, I love you.
1:02:58
I. Disagree with some of what you
1:02:59
said there in regards to, I'm gonna call it the limelight.
1:03:03
You didn't use that word. But when you said, you know I
1:03:05
don't want a kid necessarily to to reference me, etcetera, I
1:03:08
think the exact opposite. I get so perturbed and it's
1:03:11
typically on the elite level. They're interviewing a
1:03:14
Christian, Coleman, a Fred, Curly, etcetera.
1:03:16
And and I love, you know what they say and everything.
1:03:19
I want them to also say, yeah, my coach, Lance Brahman and I
1:03:23
cuz we don't know these people. We know Bill Belichick, we know
1:03:27
John Capriati, we know all these coaches.
1:03:29
There are some amazing Capriatis coaches, big high level coaches
1:03:34
in our sport. A lot of them, and no one knows
1:03:38
who they are. It's athletes.
1:03:39
It's so athlete focused and I love the athlete because without
1:03:41
the athlete they don't have this great sport.
1:03:43
But this guy here loves coaches and knows that the architecture
1:03:47
of what just happened on the track is between the coach and
1:03:50
that athlete, and that coach is important, so always going to
1:03:53
push back. I know what you're saying.
1:03:55
No, no, I understand. What?
1:03:56
You're saying I'm with you? I just always had to point out,
1:03:57
and I would say this like the. The athletes that even if you
1:04:00
say that's not what you want, they do they do it anyway and
1:04:03
you sit back and and it's it's it's a it's a humbling type of
1:04:06
it's almost like a proud Papa type moment because you don't
1:04:09
expect that you don't know if you don't do you know it's just
1:04:12
and when it does happen as a as a coach you obviously going to
1:04:15
take it you're going to take it graciously and you understand
1:04:17
that you know we played a big role in this partnership in this
1:04:21
team and and there's a lot of other entities between athletic
1:04:23
trainers and academic advisors. There's so many people that play
1:04:26
a role in that. It's weird kind of being the
1:04:29
sole, being given the sole credit over it.
1:04:32
I just want more when when. When, when when Chiefs just won
1:04:35
the Super Bowl and they interview and they interview the
1:04:38
athlete, right. They interview Patrick Mahomes.
1:04:40
But then they also go interview the coach.
1:04:42
And Coach Reed gets to say, Yep, you know, Mahomes did a great
1:04:45
job leading the team and we worked on his efficiency or
1:04:48
whatever, blah, blah, blah. I want that.
1:04:50
I want when that OU kid wins nationals and he talks about,
1:04:53
man, you know, we've been working on this all year, you
1:04:56
know, I've tried to do better off the board, whatever, blah,
1:04:57
blah, blah, blah. And then they go to Coach
1:04:59
Thomas. It's like you know what, Tommy,
1:05:01
you know came in with a goal and a dream and took coordination
1:05:04
between I I want to know. I want to see both sides and and
1:05:07
part of it. Remember we all have our own
1:05:08
passions and desires and and loves and so mine is coaches.
1:05:11
So I want more. You know, that's for I'm sure
1:05:13
everybody else listening. It's like, Nah, I just want to
1:05:15
hear from the athlete man. We got enough coaches.
1:05:16
I don't know. All right, anyway.
1:05:18
Kentucky. For six years.
1:05:20
And you know, I am an SEC Homer, You know, I think that there's a
1:05:24
national championship for tiddlywinks.
1:05:25
Somebody from the SEC would win it 10 out of 12 years.
1:05:28
So you're in the greatest conference there is you Coach
1:05:32
Webber, who was the first coach to recruit and sign one of my
1:05:36
high school kids when I first started high school coaching.
1:05:38
So I know Don for a long time. Love him to death, still love
1:05:41
him, get to work with him today, which I really appreciate.
1:05:44
Retires grateful. I love when coaches retire.
1:05:46
I mean, that's a good thing. You've earned it.
1:05:49
You should we should be doing more of it meaning we have the
1:05:51
money and resources to be able to retire.
1:05:53
So I love for Coach Webber and others that have been able to do
1:05:55
that and but that comes with a lot of changes when a head coach
1:05:59
leaves or retires or what not happens.
1:06:02
So where do you go next? You know, that was that was a
1:06:06
weird. Transition, because it's
1:06:08
unexpected, just built the home. I mean I've been in a couple,
1:06:13
two or three years of 2 1/2 years at the time, three years
1:06:15
about that and I'm, I'm really settling down planting some
1:06:18
roots and and really kind of looking looking towards that
1:06:22
that future. And I got to, you know, I think
1:06:23
we have a great staff there. I think we're building something
1:06:26
pretty special. But the one thing I also know
1:06:28
too and I respect in this sport when there's any kind of
1:06:31
transition as a head coach and I've been given this by mentors
1:06:33
and this you, you better get ready to find a way to move on.
1:06:37
Because even if you're the greatest coach in the world
1:06:39
you've had all these accolades the the common trend is to
1:06:43
remove that staff and build your own.
1:06:45
Everybody's always said you got to get your own staff you got to
1:06:47
get your own staff you want loyalty you want this you got to
1:06:49
get your own staff and and so I I immediately and it's at the
1:06:54
time of the year where that's that movements happening So I go
1:06:57
and talk to a three different coach that have some
1:06:59
opportunities thankfully at this point I had a a resume that
1:07:02
could kind of stand on its own and I could be competitive with
1:07:05
with with a lot of the jobs across the country.
1:07:08
Not saying I was I was that guy now, but I still had champions.
1:07:12
I had this at all America that helped me at the time.
1:07:14
And so I end up turning down a smaller division, one head job
1:07:18
and up turning down a couple other schools regionally.
1:07:22
And then I remember I've always known W Kitley forever because I
1:07:25
once again, I tried to be the thorn in everybody's side.
1:07:27
And when I was at TCU, Sam Houston State, I'm like, I'm
1:07:29
going to make it difficult for everybody.
1:07:33
And so when that that opportunity opened up and I was
1:07:35
like, OK, Lubbock, oh, that's that's that's home.
1:07:38
So I'm Googling it. I'm searching.
1:07:39
I'm like, wait a second. That's still 9 1/2 hours for
1:07:42
Houston. Like that's it's still like
1:07:44
being in a different state. But it was crazy because I think
1:07:48
at the time and I backtracked a little bit through Kentucky when
1:07:52
I think I became a great coach and I like to say not a great
1:07:56
coach. But when I became AI called a
1:07:59
great coach when I had my first, I had my son.
1:08:02
It's crazy. And I and I he was he was born
1:08:07
in O 9 and so that's a couple years in into being being being
1:08:12
at at at Kentucky. I was there.
1:08:15
I got there in O six O 7. And I just remember ever since
1:08:19
when he was born like my attention to detail, the things
1:08:21
that I would do almost a compassionate when I was when I
1:08:24
before he was born, I was kind of a little more regimented.
1:08:26
I kind of tried to coach like the coaches.
1:08:28
I was around the coaches. I knew you do it this way.
1:08:31
You do it that when I had a personality but it wasn't me.
1:08:34
It wasn't fully me. I was still trying to be think
1:08:37
other people. Then when I had a kid that's
1:08:39
when I had to authentically be me.
1:08:40
There's no manual for how to raise a kid.
1:08:42
You can read whatever book you want, but you find out who you
1:08:44
really are. And I think that's when my
1:08:46
relationship with my athletes became different.
1:08:48
They start, I started trusting them to even watch my kids over
1:08:52
a period of time. And so the trust was back and
1:08:54
forth and I started realizing I can go down the line.
1:08:56
I can think of my kids and oh man, this athlete helped raise
1:08:59
them. That athlete, it was a part of
1:09:00
it. This athlete did this.
1:09:02
This was the one athlete I couldn't stand forever.
1:09:04
I I wanted to get rid of off the team and it being my son's
1:09:07
babysitter and and and it being like one of the the best people
1:09:11
in my life, you know. So it's just it it became
1:09:13
something that that really changed.
1:09:15
And so when I started looking at jobs now it came way more about
1:09:19
where do I want to raise my family, where do I feel
1:09:21
comfortable having, you know, these type of things.
1:09:23
And it wasn't the big city, it wasn't of this, it wasn't that.
1:09:26
It was like, OK, well, I go in there and see Lubbock and to
1:09:29
everybody that may not be everybody's cup of tea was the
1:09:31
perfect talent for somebody young trying to raise the
1:09:33
family. You wanted them in an
1:09:34
environment that you felt like OK, if I left for for for a week
1:09:37
to go to Eugene and left for another week to go to Eugene
1:09:39
again and left for another week to be in Eugene again.
1:09:42
Like I'm my family will be taken care of.
1:09:45
Had a community And so Lubbock became that that spot for me and
1:09:49
that that became automatically apparent.
1:09:52
It was where I needed to be. And that really for that nine
1:09:56
years really propelled who I became as as a coach and who I
1:10:00
learned from as a mentor. With with coach Kitley and and
1:10:03
the different staff members I got to work with that were all
1:10:06
some incredible coaches. And once again I go down that
1:10:08
list. I'm seeing head coaches now.
1:10:10
I'm seeing elite level coaches and it's it's kind of fun to see
1:10:13
things go full circle, you know, in in this coaching path.
1:10:18
Because it's going to come up here relatively soon in your
1:10:22
path as well, especially as we're now at Texas Tech.
1:10:25
You you said you turned down a a smaller school Division One head
1:10:28
coaching job. Because that's what I was going
1:10:29
to ask. Did you think you were ready for
1:10:31
a head coaching job? Did you did that ever did you
1:10:34
ever entertain that thought you must have entertained it because
1:10:36
you interviewed for a position. What what made you decide like
1:10:39
again this isn't the right time or maybe it was place because
1:10:42
you mentioned about your location.
1:10:43
Now you have family. What was it?
1:10:45
And we're not naming the school necessarily.
1:10:48
I'm just talking about the philosophy of like, OK, I'm just
1:10:50
either not ready or this wasn't the.
1:10:51
Right. Yeah, that was.
1:10:55
That was the. Biggest thing it was more about
1:10:57
when I I always see things, I try and make a decision and try
1:11:01
and think well beyond just the immediate time and and like I
1:11:04
said, it's a great, great program.
1:11:06
You know, a conversation all that kind of stuff is
1:11:08
incredible. But I still had so much I wanted
1:11:10
to do and I wasn't really. I was still want to.
1:11:13
I want to win a Division One national championship.
1:11:15
I want to be part of it. I want to bring home some
1:11:17
trophies. I want to do those kind of
1:11:18
things. And I I knew I was eager for
1:11:21
that and anything else, pay, whatever.
1:11:23
It wasn't going to make me happy if I didn't feel like I had a
1:11:26
chance to go after the the biggest prize.
1:11:28
I started seeing some of the the some of my coaching peers and
1:11:32
friends and in the sport I'm like, yeah, I want, I want this
1:11:35
moment as well. You know I want.
1:11:37
I want the kids I coach to have this moment and you only get
1:11:40
those kind of opportunities at at select programs in my
1:11:43
opinion. It's just it's just the way
1:11:45
this, this sport has kind of evolved just like the football
1:11:48
world and you know outside of the the NAU and the in the cross
1:11:51
country realm is like the the the status quo doesn't change
1:11:55
much when it comes to the type of programs that are competing
1:11:57
for these championships. And I knew I wanted to work at a
1:11:59
program where I had that opportunity that was that was
1:12:02
probably the biggest decision making part of any decision I
1:12:07
was going to make. Can I potentially win a
1:12:08
championship there. And the funny part is everybody
1:12:10
said yeah you probably won't win one at Texas Tech and I and I
1:12:13
completely disagree. I thought that was a place that
1:12:16
we could absolutely build a a championship level program and
1:12:20
and and I was getting ready to work with the with the coach.
1:12:22
We already had 29 national championships at A division two
1:12:26
level. So I'm like if I can't learn
1:12:27
from this guy I I can't I can't learn anything in this sport.
1:12:31
So even if we don't win, I'm about to take everything I can
1:12:33
from him, about I'm about to. I'm about to soak it up like a
1:12:36
sponge, you know at this point, as you.
1:12:38
Go to Tech. You know, you've had some pretty
1:12:41
big mentors and these are just the ones that I'm thinking of.
1:12:44
Obviously, there's other mentors that pour into you.
1:12:47
You know, you talked about your coach at Sam Houston.
1:12:50
You know, DA or an amazing person to be mentored by Don
1:12:54
Weber is an amazing person with a lot of experience, a lot of
1:12:57
success. Wes Kitley, you know his story.
1:13:00
I need to get him on the show as well.
1:13:02
His story from Abilene. Fantastic, yeah, he told.
1:13:05
One One day, we were. Sitting on the apron at Tech or
1:13:07
at Texas for Texas Relays and he kind of gave me the five minute
1:13:11
story and I was just like Oh my God, like this is amazing.
1:13:14
Like you know what he did at Evelyn, how and why you went to
1:13:16
Tech? And then Tech in general, just
1:13:18
where it from where he started to where it is today and what
1:13:21
has grown with it. And you know, you were along the
1:13:24
way with that. It was quite, quite amazing
1:13:25
anyway. And tech is where, you know, I
1:13:28
knew you before tech, but tech is where and I don't know why I
1:13:34
I I don't think it's because you want a national title and all
1:13:36
that stuff that's super important, super hard.
1:13:38
But that's where it feels like you blossomed into.
1:13:42
It's hard to say, a complete coach.
1:13:45
I mean you had a lot of experience coming up, but good
1:13:47
way of. Putting it, but it's where you
1:13:48
and I like I. I started paying more attention
1:13:51
to you and seeing the other things, not just, oh, he's got
1:13:53
another great long jumper, but you know the other things, how
1:13:55
you talk to your kids, how you talk to other coaches, how other
1:13:58
coaches talked about you, You know, yeah, that's all I do is
1:14:01
talk to coaches. That's all we just talk about
1:14:02
other coaches. And so it was just, it was just
1:14:05
interesting in your time at Tech, and you said you were
1:14:09
there for 9 years. It was there nine years, yeah.
1:14:11
It feels like a lot longer for. Somebody like I don't.
1:14:13
Just like he was a tech for like 20.
1:14:14
I don't. Know.
1:14:15
So what did you you know? Tech is a different school.
1:14:19
It's so funny here cuz I said that with TCU, Tech is a unique
1:14:23
school as well because it is in the middle of thinking nowhere.
1:14:26
Lubbock is. There's nothing around Lubbock
1:14:28
and it is 9 1/2 hours to get to the grocery store.
1:14:29
It feels like in Lubbock, but it's AI mean.
1:14:33
There is when you talk about college towns and towns that
1:14:37
support their school, boy you'd be hard to beat the support that
1:14:42
tech gets from its alumni and surrounding town and towns.
1:14:48
How did how did you develop? You know you you're kind of a
1:14:51
guy. Seems like you're always trying
1:14:52
to develop and reach to the next level for yourself, for your
1:14:55
coaching and your family and their and the staff.
1:14:57
What, what was the biggest take away when you look at nine years
1:15:00
at Texas Tech? What what was the biggest growth
1:15:03
for you during that time? I mean, it was.
1:15:07
It was a it was a lot of parts. But I think Tech was the first
1:15:10
time I got to be the IT. It it remind me of my Sam
1:15:13
Houston days is where does it may sound.
1:15:15
It's where you start getting a bigger roster, you start having
1:15:18
more numbers. It's finally a school that
1:15:20
doesn't cost you, you know $50,000 to go to.
1:15:24
I can get a lot of in state talent.
1:15:25
I can go back to my mantra where I want you to come here, but I
1:15:28
never want you to go in debt to come here.
1:15:30
And so I was able to kind of feel my conscience was a little
1:15:34
more clear knowing I can give people an opportunity to get a
1:15:36
great education, not being in in extreme debt and still get a
1:15:40
great athletic experience and then going from there just
1:15:44
continue to develop. So I had to, I had huge numbers.
1:15:46
I mean I was, you know, I was coaching long, triple high
1:15:49
multis, things like that and and wasn't even coaching the pole
1:15:52
vault at the time. That was Tom Slable do an
1:15:53
incredible job there and my group was still over 3030
1:15:57
athletes and then he had another group of probably 10 or 11.
1:16:00
So we had such a big team and so that was the first time I had a
1:16:03
chance to It was just almost like it was almost like the
1:16:07
coaching version of speed dating.
1:16:08
It's like, OK, I'm going to go here.
1:16:09
Boom bell rings off. Here's my time.
1:16:11
We're moving to the next group, but I still had to give
1:16:13
everybody individual attention. So I had practice going from
1:16:16
11:00 AM to 6:00 PM and I loved every minute of it.
1:16:19
It just I I loved every minute because I still felt like they
1:16:21
deserved their time. But at the end of the day, I
1:16:23
wanted no athlete left behind. And that's when I I, you know,
1:16:27
once again, that's I think that's also my second child was
1:16:29
born. And that's where you start once
1:16:31
again. You start juggling more life.
1:16:32
You start having more family. You start realizing that this is
1:16:35
your family still within the track and field community.
1:16:37
But I just remember each step of the way trying to build a
1:16:40
culture to a championship level program and and the one thing
1:16:44
Coach Kitley really did for me was allow me to be a part of all
1:16:49
the decision making, all the different nuances of what it
1:16:52
takes. And you know, again I shook
1:16:54
hands and spent time with donors.
1:16:55
I did things like that. You know I there's things that
1:16:57
you know as a as an assistant coach a lot of times you don't
1:17:00
get the opportunity and and that's one of the things I
1:17:02
really asked of him was to you know if if I want to do this at
1:17:06
some point and I'm not saying I want to do this now.
1:17:08
I'm in no rush to run to this thing now but I want to learn
1:17:11
everything everything I can and I want to be in position But at
1:17:14
the end of the day I really wanted to win for him like I
1:17:17
really wanted to to he he he deserved that that opportunity
1:17:21
to to to lift up a trophy and it started out by winning some Big
1:17:23
12 titles which you know it never really been done and then
1:17:26
we started kind of getting on a good roll of that and then we
1:17:29
got to the point we kept getting that perennial #1.
1:17:32
We're number one. We're number one.
1:17:33
We couldn't couldn't bring it home.
1:17:34
And you knew that little it took that little shift in that
1:17:36
culture meaning that talent has to be able to compete and
1:17:39
perform in the biggest moments. And and that's what I if I if I
1:17:43
take pride in anything I felt like that group that I was able
1:17:46
to coach there wasn't all X's and O's is people who really
1:17:49
bought and had a culture of a championship level mindset and
1:17:52
and really took it to a place where I felt like no matter
1:17:56
where you went, no matter where we went if there's a Texas Tech
1:17:58
athlete in it and they had still I stopped looking at myself as a
1:18:01
small fish that we weren't the big logo we weren't this and so
1:18:04
it was a chip on the shoulder. You know and so I that that chip
1:18:06
that I had in that shoulder. I still felt like I was at Sam
1:18:09
Houston State and I had something to prove.
1:18:12
And I wanted every athlete to feel the same way because I was
1:18:15
competing against the Sam Houston State the SF as the UTS.
1:18:18
As for the athletes I was signing.
1:18:19
But at the end of the day, I wanted all those athletes to
1:18:21
beat all the the kids that just said I'm never coming to Lubbock
1:18:25
because Lubbock isn't kind of my kind of town.
1:18:27
It eventually became a place like, OK, there's something
1:18:29
going on in Lubbock. I want to come, you know, and I
1:18:33
love. The lesson there too You're
1:18:36
giving us a lot of lessons for for those of us who are
1:18:38
listening. You know I don't think this is
1:18:40
done enough where the head coach.
1:18:44
I don't say teaches his assistants, his or her
1:18:46
assistants to become head coaches but gives them the tools
1:18:49
that if they one day become, they're not so far behind that
1:18:52
it takes them a year to really be an effective head coach.
1:18:55
Donors just so alumni support equipment budgeting travel
1:19:00
scheduling, etcetera. I think that kudos to Kitley for
1:19:04
allowing you to be involved and not just like.
1:19:05
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go coach your jumpers.
1:19:07
I'm the head coach. I'll do these things like I I
1:19:09
think there's a a big part of assistant coach development that
1:19:12
we're missing globally specifically in in track and
1:19:15
field. So I wanted to point that out
1:19:17
now. What's it like?
1:19:20
I was taught a long time ago. One of my mentors when I was
1:19:22
coaching was former head coach of Indiana University Marshall
1:19:25
Goss. And when Marshall took over
1:19:28
Indiana's program and they were talking about national titles.
1:19:31
And he's like Mike. He goes, how can we win a
1:19:33
national title if we can't win the Big 10 title?
1:19:35
Now, things are different in the conference world today, to put
1:19:38
that aside, but he was like, we've got to win big 10s.
1:19:41
We win big 10s. That'll put us in the top 10.
1:19:45
Pardon me, That'll put us top ten in NCAA's.
1:19:47
And then we continue to grow up and, you know, win the title.
1:19:52
You mentioned winning Big 12 titles at Texas Tech.
1:19:54
And you're right. I think if you look at the
1:19:55
history, I, I, I don't want to say the history because I, I, I
1:19:58
know I'll get it wrong. But I know if you look at Big 12
1:20:01
men and women's conference titles, it's basically won by
1:20:03
like 2 schools. There's very few other schools
1:20:06
that have have ever won. That's why it was a big deal
1:20:08
when Kansas State won. Baylor won one.
1:20:11
Those are, I mean, you know, they're quote UN quote, not
1:20:13
supposed to, right? Texas Tech at that point was not
1:20:15
supposed to win a Big 12 title. How dare you talk about an NCAA
1:20:18
title? You haven't even won the Big 12
1:20:20
title. What was it like when you
1:20:22
started winning Big 12 titles and then started talking about,
1:20:25
OK, well now what's the next goal then is is NCAA S how did
1:20:29
you progress to that that that that level had the progression
1:20:32
moving up? Yeah, I just like I said.
1:20:34
It's it's a mindset and culture thing.
1:20:36
We just we just had that. Like I said, Coach Kipley knows
1:20:38
how to win championships I think and and I think he's always done
1:20:41
a a great job of of trying to bring staff and people around
1:20:46
that are that are like mine in those areas.
1:20:48
But I think the one thing that is probably I don't I want to
1:20:51
call it a gift and a flaw and I'll tell him this he he lets
1:20:55
his coaches do what they do. He doesn't micromanage.
1:20:58
He doesn't sit there and hover over the top.
1:21:00
And so once he got it, the staff that to me that was cohesive.
1:21:05
Not saying any other staff wasn't but we had we end up
1:21:07
building a really cohesive staff and and and unit and you know
1:21:10
even Calvin Robinson who was there.
1:21:12
We work. We won the championship.
1:21:13
He's the best man in my wedding. I was the best man of his.
1:21:15
We both were Sam Houston alum and we both he claimed he
1:21:18
coached me. I think that's absolute
1:21:20
bogusness. He never coached me when he was
1:21:22
there but I always felt like I could tell him what he was
1:21:25
should have, should have done. But now we started bringing that
1:21:29
together. It's just like everybody started
1:21:31
just going to work and if you have a coach that trusts you to
1:21:34
go out there and recruit and coach and do your thing and and
1:21:37
everybody came with a like minded mentality that winning
1:21:40
part became became a lot easier and you know and and getting
1:21:44
competitive people and and we're all competitive by nature so I'm
1:21:46
like this money's going to run out pretty quick so I better go
1:21:49
recruit hard you know so even the way we recruited stepped up
1:21:51
because we started throwing the names in the pot and like this
1:21:54
is this is #1, this is #2 this is #3 if you get them there
1:21:57
we're signing them. So I think just that that
1:21:59
mindset of how what we're looking to do and I think the
1:22:02
way we went about things there building up a much deeper bigger
1:22:05
roster and and once again having you know we having five guys in
1:22:10
a high jump sometimes seven women in the jump.
1:22:12
Like we went away. That just wasn't the
1:22:14
prototypical way and that allow us to kind of get in there and
1:22:18
and and and and go. I wouldn't call it sneak a
1:22:21
championship but we didn't do it.
1:22:23
I mean but outside of Devine or the Guru's you know double
1:22:25
national champion and that. But outside of that it happened
1:22:28
in a bunch of field events. It happened with two pole
1:22:29
vaulters. It happened with a long jumper
1:22:31
triple jumper. It happened with a discus
1:22:33
thrower. It happened you know it it
1:22:34
started she started seeing it spread across the the board.
1:22:37
So if something were to falter we still had a backup plan.
1:22:40
And I think once we had more bullets not just the ranking
1:22:45
that if something were to go go bad we still had a chance to to
1:22:48
be competitive and we had a chance to win and we broke the
1:22:50
Big 12 record and points scored and all that kind of stuff.
1:22:52
We we started doing some things that just that had never been
1:22:56
done before and that was a lot of credit to to coach Kitley
1:22:59
giving us the autonomy and ability to go out there and just
1:23:03
let's just go be rock stars. Let's go let our athletes shine
1:23:05
and let's go see if we can get done.
1:23:07
I think we lose sight. I've.
1:23:08
Said this several times on the podcast, in track and field of
1:23:11
how hard winning is, I think it's because you know, we have
1:23:14
20 something events, both men and women.
1:23:15
So you know, every meet we go to there's a winner and things like
1:23:19
that. But winning is hard.
1:23:21
So as you extrapolate that up from the individual event to the
1:23:24
conference level to the national level, the winning national
1:23:28
title, that is super. Everybody wants to go after the
1:23:31
national title. I agree with you, there's
1:23:33
probably about 10 to 15 schools and 15 might be hard pressed
1:23:37
that will that that have the the opportunity to win a national
1:23:40
title for a lot of different reasons.
1:23:43
Take us through what's it like to win?
1:23:45
99% of us listening right now will never win a national team
1:23:49
title be part of a staff that wins the national team title.
1:23:51
What's it like? What was it like when you
1:23:53
realized you're going to win? I don't.
1:23:55
I don't know if you knew like before the 3000 or before.
1:23:58
You know, before the four by four.
1:23:59
If it came down to the 4x4. Talk us through a national
1:24:03
title. Man, that's that's pretty
1:24:04
stinking special. Yeah, well, you know, it's.
1:24:06
I think what what what made the national title unique is that I
1:24:10
I I don't I don't want to claim this as a stat that's a locked
1:24:13
and guaranteed stat but I think I have probably more 5th place
1:24:16
finishes as a coach at a national meet than anybody else
1:24:21
that I've ever met. So I've been one spot outside
1:24:24
that trophy and and and so that used to irk us you know and and
1:24:29
it's and we went through a period where you know the
1:24:31
getting up to 5th was also a big win because we started there
1:24:33
maybe projected to be 11. But then we had a we had a spree
1:24:37
there of being the number one ranked team.
1:24:39
The number 2 ranked team like it should have been for sure you're
1:24:41
coming home with a trophy but there always be something that
1:24:44
can pop up. It's this injury.
1:24:46
It's this it's that you almost not like you're some cursed or
1:24:49
jinxed or something but you knew we knew that we we went there
1:24:52
with with with with kind of that those hitters and if those
1:24:54
anyone of those hitters faltered, we're in big trouble.
1:24:58
And then when you start going that culmination of but going
1:25:01
after a national title, it just felt like it was just primed and
1:25:04
ready to go. We had a great indoor outdoor
1:25:06
season. I felt like the culture of the
1:25:08
team had everybody was locked in doing the small details that it
1:25:11
took to win. I felt like the group I was
1:25:13
coaching directly was like they just they they they were just
1:25:17
locked in. It's almost like OK, we're going
1:25:18
to go take care of conference. We're going to kill it here.
1:25:20
We're going to go to this. We're going to do that.
1:25:21
We're going to go to regionals. We're going to do that.
1:25:23
Like we we didn't lose anybody along the way.
1:25:26
And typically when you're taking that journey towards running a
1:25:28
national championship and especially with the regional
1:25:30
format, preliminary round format, you can have some
1:25:33
casualties. But we didn't have any.
1:25:34
I'm just like, OK, this is different.
1:25:36
This has a different feel then we're about to be in Austin and
1:25:39
you know, and and anybody that's in any school in the state, if
1:25:42
you don't go to UT you you you find a way to despise UT.
1:25:47
And I love and it's like I've never had that kind of notion.
1:25:49
Now that I'm Oklahoma, it's even more.
1:25:51
I mean I thought that was our symbol of the school.
1:25:53
I'm just like, guys, what are we doing?
1:25:55
Like this is our symbol. I thought we had a completely
1:25:57
different one. And so you you get to Austin,
1:26:01
you, you get a lot of your family, your friends, your
1:26:04
crowd, my entire family's there. It's just my kids are there.
1:26:08
And it's always a little bit tougher to do when in most
1:26:10
national championship settings. But you felt it was prime, Prime
1:26:14
to happen and and and once. We got to a certain point
1:26:20
moving. Again, and it's the most relax I
1:26:22
felt, even though that's ridiculously high.
1:26:25
We had a couple, you know casualty just to heat issues.
1:26:28
But we just we we're just our our people getting ready to go.
1:26:32
And by the by the time it was said and done, it's just like
1:26:34
you knew that championship was rolling.
1:26:36
And once we hit that 60 points and I knew we were kind of there
1:26:40
and it was a surreal moment because like I said we had a
1:26:43
huge crowd, huge fans. We had people doing the chant.
1:26:46
You had the athletic director there, you had administrator,
1:26:49
you had support you you had people.
1:26:51
You had a administration already built championship towels like
1:26:54
that already said national champs.
1:26:55
Like there are people that were just locked in and like it's
1:26:58
it's our time And so that was a special moment because you knew
1:27:01
you had worked really hard. You knew you took a bunch of
1:27:03
losses to teach yourself how to win in these moments and now
1:27:07
it's time to you know to put that formula to the test and and
1:27:10
when we did and there's there's there's champions out there
1:27:12
there's going to be teams that there may not look like they're
1:27:14
in a hunt but they know how to win.
1:27:15
They've learned how to win and so there will always be the most
1:27:18
dangerous programs in in our sport and and we hadn't at that
1:27:22
point but then once we did that it became something like you you
1:27:26
you got to you got to worry about this program from here on
1:27:29
out because you've had some people that learn how to win and
1:27:31
so they're going to always be a threat they're going to always
1:27:33
be a factor in our sport. How do you?
1:27:36
Bounce back the next year after winning the national title,
1:27:39
meaning you've tasted the sweetest of fruit.
1:27:41
I mean, it is the highest honor in our collegiate track and
1:27:43
field is to win the national title as a team.
1:27:46
And it's extremely tough. You you mentioned, you know you
1:27:48
can go there with the greatest team in the world.
1:27:49
It only takes one mistake to knock yourself out of contention
1:27:53
or or the other way. You can go in thinking you're a
1:27:55
third place team and something happens to another team and
1:27:57
you're suddenly in the hunt for the national title.
1:28:00
And you can even come down, as we've seen, to the very simple
1:28:03
last leg of the four by four to win the national title for
1:28:06
several teams. By the way that you know, that
1:28:09
could have won in, in that instance that I'm referring to.
1:28:11
So how do you the next year and you don't win you know how how
1:28:16
do you like even though you have a successful year but you didn't
1:28:19
win this year. It it you know how do you just
1:28:21
you've been to the mountaintop. How does anything compare at
1:28:24
this point? Well, it's I.
1:28:26
Go back to a story I had with a athlete probably isn't my isn't
1:28:31
my Kentucky years. But I had an athlete who won won
1:28:34
a conference championship. I'm sorry athlete.
1:28:38
Won a national championship. And and I remember asking like
1:28:42
OK what he was talking to the team, mentioning all the things
1:28:47
about it's like, well explain your championship run and what
1:28:49
is this, what is that, you know? And and he went into in depth
1:28:52
about what it felt like to to win it.
1:28:54
But he said the hardest part about winning is the fact that
1:28:58
I'm coming back next year and that pressure is to do it again.
1:29:02
And like I I didn't feel pressure like I was just hungry
1:29:05
and eager to get this first one. But after you win one, it's just
1:29:09
like I never really thought about how it feels to try and
1:29:12
come back and repeat something and and and it's it's one of
1:29:15
those things and and this isn't a coaching bragging moment, but
1:29:18
it's it's one of kind of things I was like, man, I really
1:29:21
realized that's it, that's that's a difficult one.
1:29:23
And the one thing I've always said I've had, you know, I've
1:29:25
had nine national champions. And the one thing I love about
1:29:28
that part is none of them have ever won, just won.
1:29:31
They've all won at least two and and and I started realizing how
1:29:35
tough that is and especially in the world and in a sport where
1:29:38
everybody's hunting for the top. And I know that that that that
1:29:41
Texas Tech team was special. But I also knew that I was
1:29:43
senior senior driven senior laden.
1:29:46
And so we're going to do some rebuilding and as soon as we got
1:29:49
the point where we thought we had a a great program ready to
1:29:51
go we had this lovely thing called COVID shut us down.
1:29:54
We're the number one program again and we have some great
1:29:56
things going. We're getting ready to go after
1:29:57
this thing and we get shut down for a season but but it was it
1:30:02
was it was a fun challenge but at that point the culture and
1:30:05
the path had been set like we we didn't have to talk about
1:30:08
championships. We just had to prepare for them
1:30:11
and and became I felt like our job became easier.
1:30:13
The people that walked into the program weren't coming to the
1:30:16
program because it was their favorite color or because it was
1:30:19
a school that offered the scholarship or is because you
1:30:21
know they couldn't get into the school they wanted.
1:30:23
They came here because they want to be part of a championship
1:30:25
level program and so that mindset as a whole just started
1:30:28
to change. And and I loved it.
1:30:30
It changed me, it changed my thinking.
1:30:31
And I didn't become an elitist, I just became hungry for the
1:30:34
biggest prize. Yeah, it's amazing.
1:30:36
Amazing. Well, around this time you and I
1:30:39
are starting to have more of a relationship.
1:30:42
We talk to each other. We know each other fairly well,
1:30:44
decently at this point. And I just have a great
1:30:47
admiration for you and a school that I thought high high of had
1:30:54
a head coaching opportunity available.
1:30:56
And so I came to you. I can't remember what meet it
1:30:58
was, but I come to you and I was like hey James, you know it
1:31:01
feels inevitable that you're going to be that coach one day.
1:31:03
I don't know what that means, by the way because just because
1:31:06
you're a successful assistant doesn't necessarily mean it.
1:31:07
But I think for me it felt more of like your character in your
1:31:10
leadership like OK, you know you're going to lead a program
1:31:13
not necessarily because you're a great coach but because of who
1:31:16
you are. And so I said, hey, you know, if
1:31:19
you're interested in this school, I still, you know, I I
1:31:22
have some contacts high up. I I would be very well.
1:31:26
I'd be honored if you wanted me to call in and you know say hey
1:31:30
you need to go talk to this coach and you know you're very
1:31:33
gracious. You're like, hey, man, thank
1:31:34
you. That means a lot to me that you
1:31:36
would say that. But and yeah, I think one day
1:31:38
I'm going to be a head coach as well.
1:31:40
But it has to be the right situation.
1:31:43
It has to be the right time. Everything now, hearing your
1:31:45
story about your family and where you're moving now at all,
1:31:48
like, I'm getting better, complete story now.
1:31:51
But you told me that. And so like that just kind of
1:31:55
locked away of like, oh man, here's a guy that I think could
1:31:57
have any coaching job in the country and he's being very
1:32:00
selective. Like that means something to
1:32:02
like, oh, that's that's interesting.
1:32:04
And then a year or two later, you do leave Texas Tech because
1:32:09
you'd also mentioned like, hey, man, I've got a great thing at
1:32:11
Tech where we live. My boss.
1:32:13
Like, it's great, man. But then you do leave Tech and
1:32:16
you go to another not only great program, but, you know, I don't
1:32:19
know that I can think any more of a person than I do of Carol
1:32:22
Smith. Gilbert, you go to Georgia with
1:32:25
Carol out there and it kind of like, you know, you don't know
1:32:29
this. I've actually told you, told you
1:32:30
this. I was kind of like, huh, I mean,
1:32:32
I get it. You know, I I get working for
1:32:35
Carol. That might be the draw alone to
1:32:36
be honest with you. And, you know, maybe I get
1:32:38
Georgia. It's a great program.
1:32:39
They've done great things and will continue to do great
1:32:41
things. But I was like, but that's not a
1:32:43
head coaching job. Like I kind of thought maybe in
1:32:46
my head like your next thing was going to be the head coach of
1:32:48
Georgia or something. What led to the decision to go
1:32:50
to Athens? Question mark.
1:32:54
Yeah. No, that was that.
1:32:55
Was probably the the the the shocker of of mine my life
1:33:00
because I had no intentions of of making any moves.
1:33:02
I was going to be at Texas Tech until that opportunity arose and
1:33:06
and the right opportunity like you like you mentioned because I
1:33:09
felt like that was important. I had other opportunities.
1:33:12
I'm not ever trying to diminish the the fact that there's you
1:33:15
know a head job I'm above it. It was never about that so I've
1:33:18
never been above any job. I just one thing I learned from
1:33:22
Wes Kitley about being a a boss is that you know he coached one
1:33:26
event. He coached 800 almost the entire
1:33:28
time for the most part at at Tech Tech and he still that he
1:33:30
has his hands on everything from a from a leadership and weight
1:33:34
room and everything will be coached one event And that
1:33:37
scared me. The idea of probably if I become
1:33:39
a head coach I got to take a step back and I don't get the
1:33:42
coach and interact and do the things that are fun everyday fun
1:33:47
to me. And I never wanted to feel like
1:33:49
I wasn't in a rush to turn this into a business turn this into a
1:33:51
profession yet and and and when I saw some of my people that
1:33:56
besides Dai mean who still coached all the sprints and did
1:33:59
that I mean but Weber really only coached like the middle
1:34:02
distance 800 and and and and and it was it was it was one of the
1:34:07
kind of things that always kept me a little more hesitant And
1:34:09
when I and coach Carroll she knows she tells everybody this
1:34:12
but she tried to hire me a number of times to to come out
1:34:15
to California I was like coach that's the one thing I'm just
1:34:17
not I'm not a California guy not a like I I have to take my my
1:34:21
lovely three 3500 square foot home that I paid not nearly as
1:34:25
much and turn it down to about 1000 and pay double the price at
1:34:29
least. Yeah, and I.
1:34:30
Wasn't I wasn't ready for that life.
1:34:33
But I always appreciated her it. It was it was at a point where
1:34:37
and I never want to get to the point where I said like I've
1:34:39
learned everything I can learn. I've accomplished everything I
1:34:41
can accomplish. But I've learned so much from
1:34:43
from from from West Kitley that I was like.
1:34:46
And even at the time I was like, no, I'm not making this move.
1:34:50
You know, she had reached out to me when she took that Georgia
1:34:52
job and and and I talked to the staff, I was like, Nope, I'm,
1:34:55
I'm, I'm staying here. It's not there.
1:34:57
It's not the right timing. And and I'm I'm kind of, I'm
1:35:01
loyal and I'm I'm not stuck here but this is where I want to be.
1:35:06
And then we transition. I remember going on a family
1:35:09
vacation. We're just we're settled.
1:35:11
We're staying. I'm going to Great Wolf Lodge
1:35:13
and a Metroplex, and we're about to go and just enjoy this thing.
1:35:16
And then I remember getting a call from the AD, getting a call
1:35:19
from associate AD, getting a call from the Swai and then
1:35:23
started talking from Georgia. Yeah.
1:35:25
And and at the. Time.
1:35:26
My wife is even considering possible transitioning career
1:35:29
because she's she works, you know, she's, she works for
1:35:32
Walgreens and she does this and in the time this is COVID.
1:35:35
So she's administering shots, she's doing this, she's doing
1:35:37
that. She's like, you know what, this
1:35:39
may be time for a possible career move.
1:35:41
And you know when you start going these kind of schools that
1:35:43
can make one, one or two calls and you got a great position
1:35:46
here or there, whatever. And then it drew her in a little
1:35:49
bit. And I it's the first time
1:35:50
because normally I'd go in a house and it would be a simple
1:35:53
conversation. Hey, this cold, this school
1:35:55
reached out to me. This ever No end of the
1:35:57
conversation. Hey.
1:35:59
You know, this school reached out about this no end of the
1:36:02
conversation. And this is one of the first
1:36:04
time in that. And when I first brought up
1:36:05
Georgia, no. But it was the first time her
1:36:08
mindset changed because we also had our in laws that live with
1:36:11
us and we started thinking about how far they travel, just to
1:36:13
kind of do some things to enjoy themselves and start looking at
1:36:16
different areas. And so the biggest draw for me
1:36:19
ultimately when I decided to make that shift to George was I
1:36:22
really wanted to learn from another championship level
1:36:25
coach. I knew in my mind I'm getting
1:36:26
close to transitioning to where I want to be comfortable where I
1:36:29
want to be and to know that I don't say I learned everything I
1:36:33
could ever learn from Westfield. I've learned if I go sit with
1:36:35
him and talk for an hour I'm gonna learn something different.
1:36:37
But when I got to work with Coach Carroll it really started
1:36:40
to bring another level of structure and and how she does
1:36:44
her things and how she builds a championship level program and
1:36:47
the one promise that I you know I just like I have with coach
1:36:50
kit list like I'm I can't make this move until you allow me to
1:36:53
be somewhat in your shoes like. And she knew I was coming there
1:36:56
with the mindset of we're going to go after this thing
1:36:59
wholeheartedly. But ultimately this is one of my
1:37:01
goals is to be a head coach. And I've always said I never
1:37:04
wanted to be a head coach and I've told this to everybody, you
1:37:06
know, I've never just wanted to be a head coach.
1:37:09
I want to be a championship level head coach.
1:37:11
And so I didn't feel like I was at a place that you could be
1:37:14
championship level team and it could happen in a short term or
1:37:19
long term. But I'm, I'm looking a little
1:37:20
bit more in like that five to five year window, meaning I
1:37:23
can't contest for one in that amount of time.
1:37:25
It probably wasn't for me because I'm not going to get the
1:37:27
same joy out of a paycheck as I would the accomplishment of
1:37:30
trying to reach the highest pinnacle of our sport.
1:37:33
And so that that that was the biggest shift.
1:37:36
And I think over that two 2 1/2 years I was there with her.
1:37:39
I learned. I learned so much.
1:37:42
I learned a ton. And I said she come may seem
1:37:44
like the big bad wolf to a lot of different people but she's
1:37:46
probably one of the softest teddy bears I've ever worked
1:37:49
for. But she runs she runs a program
1:37:51
and she runs a program away and she sets high expectations and
1:37:55
and and and it's it's amazing how you can build young men and
1:37:58
women up when you put expectations.
1:38:00
But you also you you you you you follow up with that you you you
1:38:04
you hold them accountable. You do things like that and and
1:38:07
you grow. You grow.
1:38:08
You grow way quicker than just kind of sometimes that that free
1:38:11
reign. I don't.
1:38:13
Want to diminish your time at Georgia for her sake of time,
1:38:16
We're going to skip over it a little bit, also because Carol
1:38:18
has promised me that she will be on the podcast.
1:38:20
In fact, it's your fault. I blame you that she's not on
1:38:23
the podcast now. We were getting ready to start
1:38:26
working a schedule and she's like, Mike, I have to replace
1:38:29
James. And you know, we're getting
1:38:30
ready to do it. And I was like, I get it.
1:38:32
Yeah, I'm always blessed when you guys can give us any time,
1:38:35
especially in season, for crying out loud.
1:38:38
So. So Carol's on the you know, when
1:38:39
it when she's ready, when she has time for me, she'll be on
1:38:42
here. I echo a lot of things you say,
1:38:44
you know I've worked with Carol for you know decades now at this
1:38:48
point, I love her to death. Leader is always the word.
1:38:51
Like, I don't think of her as a track coach and that's what she
1:38:53
does, but she's just a natural born leader if she was the CEO
1:38:57
of. Walgreens.
1:38:58
Or IBM. They would be the top company in
1:39:01
their spot. Just she's just a speaking
1:39:03
leader, man. Love her death.
1:39:05
So let's transition from the transition from Georgia to
1:39:08
Oklahoma. Having heard what you just said
1:39:11
about you know you'd go in and and missus Thomas would say Nope
1:39:15
that's not their place. We're not going there.
1:39:16
We're not going there. We're going there.
1:39:17
How did OU come in to where you either had to convince her or
1:39:22
she was on board. How did that this was the
1:39:25
opportunity to go for the family not just you for the family.
1:39:27
How did you how did you get her on board?
1:39:29
Or was she already on board? Yeah, Well, I think.
1:39:31
There's there's a you always have your mental list and
1:39:34
sometimes you write things out. You know I may write down.
1:39:36
OK me and I have a discussion OK here's the if if one of these
1:39:40
eight schools came calling because we're in a we're in a
1:39:43
range now where you don't just you don't call them they call
1:39:46
you and and and those kind of programs.
1:39:49
And if one of these kind of schools came calling what would
1:39:52
I wholeheartedly go after and pursue and look at legitimately
1:39:56
and and Oklahoma was definitely on that list.
1:39:58
Growing up in Texas I thought there was three big schools.
1:40:00
There was Texas. There was Texas A&M, there's
1:40:02
Oklahoma. So if you're an elite level
1:40:04
player you went to one of those three Texas schools and I pretty
1:40:06
much put Oklahoma in that category.
1:40:09
And so that so that was always a place I I I always could see
1:40:13
from the outside looking in like man this place could be be
1:40:15
special the proximity all those kind of things.
1:40:19
But when that change happened? I was never expecting anything
1:40:23
to happen in the month of December.
1:40:25
I just thought OK, you know I'm going about my day.
1:40:27
We're getting ready to start the season.
1:40:28
It's holiday break. It's all these things about to
1:40:30
go on. Next thing I know was just like
1:40:33
I'm, I'm, I'm getting called and I'm, I'm mate having these
1:40:36
conversations and what turns into should be probably a maybe
1:40:40
a month process. You're going through all this.
1:40:42
It turned into about a 7 to 10 day process where it's just the
1:40:45
whirlwind. I mean it's everything's
1:40:47
happening quick. I barely get a chance to to talk
1:40:49
to people. I'm getting my first call the
1:40:51
next day that same night I'm on a Zoom interview.
1:40:53
You know it's just and I'm thinking it's going to be with
1:40:55
one person. It's almost the entire
1:40:57
administration you know. So it's it it it moved quickly
1:41:01
but I I I try to you know just like how everything started
1:41:05
going to TCU. I just try to be as prepared as
1:41:08
I can. Over the years and time, I've
1:41:10
always continued to build on my philosophy, build on my plan of
1:41:15
bring it to life within a small microcosm of a group and then
1:41:19
hopefully be able to ultimately kind of move that out to an
1:41:21
entire program. And so I felt like I've been
1:41:24
prepared for this for a long time, not preparing to just walk
1:41:26
out and leave a program mid year.
1:41:28
That's probably the one thing that's going to be the toughest
1:41:30
part I've ever done in my coaching career outside of
1:41:33
leaving Lubbock after being there nine years.
1:41:36
It's it's walking away from a group that you know put their
1:41:39
their sweat, blood and tears into trying to accomplish
1:41:42
something special. And I don't think that goal will
1:41:45
change that. I'm not there.
1:41:46
But it's it's it's hard not being there with them.
1:41:49
But then this is one of the few places where I think that no
1:41:52
matter who you are and how you look at it, it's it's it's a
1:41:56
move that if you have an opportunity rather if it's the
1:41:58
right time, the wrong time, you have to take those kind of
1:42:01
opportunities. I can't look above this one.
1:42:03
I can't think there's something better.
1:42:06
Not saying, you know, I'm looking for something better,
1:42:08
but or that this opportunity will be there in. 2510, yeah,
1:42:12
that's right. So that's what you start to
1:42:14
notice that these things. Don't open up very often.
1:42:17
So as you're listening to this, when we're recording here, give
1:42:21
James a lot of grace here. He's been on the job for less
1:42:23
than two months. Less than six weeks actually.
1:42:26
I think so. So when I ask these questions,
1:42:29
James, you're you're forgiven when you say, you know what, I
1:42:31
just don't know at this point, Mike, but I'm curious.
1:42:33
So, you know, coming into a program halfway through the year
1:42:37
and you know you, we started off today's podcast by talking
1:42:39
about, yeah, you know what, you go to your comfort zone.
1:42:41
Let's go to meets. Let's get things done.
1:42:43
Let's get prepared and let's prepare for the future.
1:42:45
How are you? You know now learning about your
1:42:47
journey, learning about your thoughts.
1:42:50
Specifically, I'm thinking around, you know, W coaching
1:42:53
just the 800. And Don, I shouldn't have said
1:42:55
just I'm sorry, I hate that word.
1:42:57
W coaching. The 800 plus all the other
1:43:00
millions of things he has to do. Don, coaching more middle
1:43:02
distance, you know, less coaching because as the
1:43:05
director, as the head, there's so much more that you have to do
1:43:08
and you have to do really well for the program to succeed.
1:43:11
How are you preparing? How are you?
1:43:15
It's hard to say how are you handling it because it's only
1:43:18
you know. Like I said, I think it's less
1:43:19
than six weeks technically that you've been there.
1:43:21
What's your vision of how you're that you can share with us that
1:43:25
you are going to move the Sooners forward in regards to
1:43:28
what you're going to coach. And I'm not looking for
1:43:30
specifics necessarily, but are you going to try to coach all
1:43:33
the field events and multis and still be the head?
1:43:35
How are you starting to put all these plan you you've thought
1:43:38
about this for a long time. You you're a planner.
1:43:40
You have thought when I become a head coach, I want to do XXXXX.
1:43:44
How are you looking at least through this semester, indoor,
1:43:48
outdoor season? How are you looking to put those
1:43:50
plans into action? Yeah, that's an awesome
1:43:53
question. No, I would say again, I said I
1:43:55
could give you. All grace, brother.
1:43:56
You've been six weeks. No, no, it's.
1:43:58
This you are still trying to figure out how to drive from.
1:44:00
Home to the office. I get it.
1:44:01
Everything's so new. I know, I know.
1:44:03
No, it's it's crazy when I wrote.
1:44:05
Out when I had a a a playbook if you want to call it a playbook a
1:44:08
plan a vision it was going to be it was going to be against the
1:44:12
grain. And I I always put this is my
1:44:13
knowledge you always said and and Nick Saban is the greatest
1:44:17
thing probably to ever happen to sport when it comes to coaching
1:44:19
and teams and dynasty and he had a ridiculous stat that none of
1:44:23
his assistants had ever beaten him up till just recently
1:44:26
whatever. And the reason they never beat
1:44:28
him is because they all left those programs and did it Nick
1:44:30
Saban's way and you can't beat Nick Saban doing Nick Saban's
1:44:35
stuff unless you have Nick Saban's people.
1:44:37
And so I've always been at a point where all the lifelong
1:44:41
lessons people told me get rid of your staff, hire a new one,
1:44:44
do this, do that. I'm like, I have the opportunity
1:44:46
to work with some incredible coaches that were already put in
1:44:49
place here that I known for a long time in the sport.
1:44:52
I think they're going to do an incredible job.
1:44:53
When I look at my playbook, I've you know, and this isn't
1:44:56
knocking any program, A lot of programs have 4 Sprint coaches,
1:45:00
33 minimum. All your elite level programs
1:45:02
have minimum three and they go heavy in that area.
1:45:06
It's like why can't we be a program with four field event
1:45:08
coaches? And when I wrote up my ultimate
1:45:11
plan, you know, I I was going to try and put it in a way where I
1:45:15
can put people because I'm trusting, even when it comes to
1:45:17
athletes. If I'm anything, I'm more of a
1:45:19
kittly where I'm going to let you do your thing and I can
1:45:22
assist. I can be a part of it.
1:45:23
Coach Kitley let me do everything I want with a high
1:45:25
jump. But he was over the USATF high
1:45:27
jump Olympic development stuff forever.
1:45:29
So he knows the high jump well. He's never once come to me.
1:45:31
I'm like, I think you should change this.
1:45:33
Whatever screw ups I was doing, he allowed me to make him to the
1:45:35
point where I got him right. But ultimately we know how to
1:45:38
all count points at the end and we're trying to get to the point
1:45:40
we're all counting the same points in in a high points.
1:45:42
But that was a one of the unique gifts I was giving to come in
1:45:46
mid years. I feel like I have some an
1:45:48
incredible staff. I had to make some additions.
1:45:50
I didn't have to make any deletions and I don't plan to
1:45:52
because I I I am the kind of one of them loyal type people.
1:45:55
And I feel like no matter even if things aren't perfect you can
1:45:59
kind of build it to what you want to be in.
1:46:01
And if you can set a path, a vision, kind of an idea of what
1:46:05
you want, then I if I can envision this thing being more
1:46:08
like an Olympic training center where everybody has specialties,
1:46:10
everybody contribute in certain areas, you know, I don't have to
1:46:13
come here and start saying, well, I've coached this, I
1:46:15
coached this, the Catholic, I've coached this high jumper, Give
1:46:17
me all your high jumpers back out and I'll do this and you go
1:46:19
do that. I'm like, no, I didn't.
1:46:21
I didn't like to break up that continuity because I also know
1:46:23
the value of coaching and and and how athletes can tie into
1:46:27
those coaches. And so I respect that and I
1:46:29
think the athletes and the coaches hopefully see that for
1:46:32
me and understanding that I'm not, I'm not here to take take
1:46:35
away your people. I'm here to help build on that.
1:46:37
And I think we built a level of trust in a short amount of time
1:46:40
where if you have to ask a question or we can do this or I
1:46:43
see this technically I can speak to you.
1:46:45
I can even speak to an athlete with you through you.
1:46:48
Not in a way that I'm trying to over coach.
1:46:50
I'm trying to do this. But you know we can come
1:46:52
together to find out the best path for them.
1:46:55
And if I could and the one thing is if I was going to take this
1:46:57
thing over as a blank slate I don't think I could have hired
1:47:01
this good of compliment of staff.
1:47:02
Because it's a it's a threat to bring somebody and say no and
1:47:06
you're underneath somebody's wing especially if you've been
1:47:08
established you've been doing this thing a long time and and
1:47:10
coach Langley and coach Davis who coached, you know, same
1:47:13
events that I've been coaching forever, I trust those guys
1:47:17
wholeheartedly because I know what they've done before I got
1:47:18
here. I competed against those guys as
1:47:20
you know as a coach of different schools within the same
1:47:23
conference, different conference.
1:47:24
So it's a it's it's an absolute luxury to be able to say, you
1:47:27
know what, I got to go deal with this office stuff this entire
1:47:30
Tuesday. I'm not going to touch the
1:47:32
track, probably for the one of the first times in my life.
1:47:34
And I feel perfectly fine about it and I didn't know how I'd
1:47:38
feel about that. Yeah, I was going to say that.
1:47:39
I feel like that. 'D be really hard for you.
1:47:41
Yeah, I I thought it would be. Difficult.
1:47:43
But like, like I said now that I'm in a trusting situation
1:47:46
where I do trust the the coaches that we have from the distance
1:47:49
to the throws and things like that.
1:47:51
Like I don't have to oversee, but that's the same way I'm with
1:47:53
my athletes. You know, there's times on
1:47:55
purpose like here's, you know, the warm up, do it on your own.
1:47:58
I'm not going to, there's times, I'm going to watch everything.
1:48:00
There's other times I need you to make sure you're
1:48:02
independently locked in and we have a group that's super tied
1:48:05
into the athletes. These athletes love them.
1:48:07
They trust them. They'll do whatever they ask of
1:48:09
them and they they're buying into a culture of what I'm
1:48:11
trying to kind of create here which isn't some major shift I
1:48:14
didn't walk into some some horrible environment we got no
1:48:16
it's just I know one way and I my way is to try and get it to a
1:48:20
point where we're all fighting for the same thing and and and
1:48:23
and now that I feel like it can move that direction.
1:48:26
I've never, I never would have thought this transition would
1:48:29
have been as I don't want to call it easy.
1:48:32
I don't want to by any means. But as fulfilling as it's been
1:48:36
in a short amount of time, once again we're in our happy place
1:48:38
now. We're training.
1:48:39
We're competing training for a couple days and traveling again
1:48:41
and and that's this is now becoming a flow that it feels it
1:48:46
feels much more more comfortable.
1:48:47
It feels like it's in my wheelhouse.
1:48:49
We'll get back to a bunch of paperwork and a bunch of
1:48:50
decisions and where we're traveling the meets and how
1:48:52
we're going to budget this. But right now is this is just.
1:48:55
It's fun. You brought up an important.
1:48:58
Topic that I'm afraid we don't have time to really delve into,
1:49:00
and that's learned helplessness when you're talking about
1:49:02
sometimes your athletes, they need to warm up on their own.
1:49:05
There's plenty of meats that you go to that you don't have direct
1:49:08
access to them, so they've got to be able to make adjustments
1:49:11
and things like that. But that's an important topic.
1:49:13
But we don't have time but to wrap us up today.
1:49:16
James, why don't you tell us about what's got you excited,
1:49:19
scared, concerned. So not only new program that
1:49:22
alone is a huge shift in what you are doing as a coach and as
1:49:26
a as a person but you guys are also transitioning into the SEC.
1:49:33
It's just not fair or fun. I was talking to well it'll
1:49:37
it'll narrow down to either Oklahoma or Texas.
1:49:39
That's as far as I'll go to one of the coaches there when it was
1:49:42
first announced and and I was like, man, that's just not fun.
1:49:45
When I was in it, we had 12 teams and it was just a
1:49:48
bloodbath then. I mean we ran 3 flat in the four
1:49:51
by four and never ran a conference, by the way, because
1:49:53
it was like just get ready for nationals.
1:49:55
That's crazy, right. And then they added Mizzou and
1:49:58
A&M and God bless, that made it a lot harder.
1:50:00
And now we're adding OU in Texas.
1:50:03
This isn't a conference meet. This is mini nationals and of
1:50:06
course, you know through the lens of I'm an SEC Homer here.
1:50:10
Of course. What's got you, like I said,
1:50:13
excited, concerned. Tell us about what's what's
1:50:15
going on here in the future as you look towards building OU and
1:50:19
the image of James Thomas and going into this, you got to go
1:50:23
against Caro, you got to go against Mouse, you got to go
1:50:25
against the Bucky. I mean, the hitters, come on,
1:50:30
man. Lonnie Althea, I miss.
1:50:33
I've missed every one of their just unbelievable people and
1:50:37
coaches. And you've got to figure out how
1:50:39
do you bring the Sooners up to the top.
1:50:42
I mean it's it's. I I it's a dream come true.
1:50:45
I mean, like I said it's the one thing about our sport, what I've
1:50:48
always appreciate and I think everybody who's in the sport can
1:50:50
appreciate. This isn't like the NCAA
1:50:52
tournament where you have to get your special bid because you win
1:50:54
your conference, this that whatever.
1:50:56
If you're one of the elite, you go to the same meet as everybody
1:50:59
else. So no matter where I've been,
1:51:00
I've competed against the SEC. I've competed against the Big 12
1:51:03
because there's only nine people in the final.
1:51:05
There's only eight lanes. That may be this, that may be
1:51:07
that. So that's been a world.
1:51:09
So there's one meet a year we come together and we just, we
1:51:12
just, we just clash. But at the end of the day,
1:51:14
everybody has to be worried about the 16 teams in the SEC
1:51:17
because those same 16 teams are going to be in Eugene, they're
1:51:20
going to be at whatever indoor championship site we're going to
1:51:23
be at. So the whole level of the sport
1:51:25
is raising and there's not. There's there's teams that are
1:51:28
all stepping their game up for that.
1:51:29
But it makes my messaging so much easier because once again
1:51:34
you get you get evidence right there in front of you.
1:51:37
And I can look at the SEC alone as a conference parameter, but I
1:51:40
can also to show them a national list and say what used to win,
1:51:43
it doesn't even make it anymore. What used to do this we won't
1:51:46
even get you another get you a final spot now And so that I
1:51:49
think the level of thinking just has to elevate I think the the
1:51:53
whole the way even the way the administration's and Staffs and
1:51:56
even the coaches have to prepare and recruit.
1:51:58
We get the kind of fine tune narrow this thing in it's not
1:52:01
the greatest but probably for the high school level and for
1:52:03
the recruiting and all that kind of stuff because the pressure is
1:52:05
on to get people that are almost ready made elite in the transfer
1:52:08
Porter which is a whole another topic there.
1:52:10
But we're we're we're kind of put with a new task of you know
1:52:13
you got to come in and go but I don't want to lose that whole
1:52:15
concept of development I think development because I don't I
1:52:19
like I said I still don't have a national champion that I've ever
1:52:21
coached at you you'd have to Google who they were coming out
1:52:24
of high school and I and I appreciate that.
1:52:26
I still appreciate the fact that we can still coach and develop
1:52:29
champions athletes can still develop and but you just have to
1:52:32
have a level of patience. I got to find a mixture of that
1:52:34
and that's going to be with some some upperclassmen some
1:52:37
experience but also some youth that I'm going to give them time
1:52:40
to be a lead and I'm going to take my time and patience in
1:52:42
that And then we have events that we coach and the staff that
1:52:45
I think can coach those developmental events.
1:52:47
You can't develop somebody into a 99 sprinter which you
1:52:50
absolutely can develop into a 75 high jumper.
1:52:55
I'll add on and and drop the mic with this.
1:52:58
You know I I think sometimes the O us and Florida's and Georgia's
1:53:03
get a knock when you know other coaches will say yeah they don't
1:53:07
want to develop anymore you know they just want the ready made 10
1:53:11
flat kids 75 kid etcetera and it's like you know what you know
1:53:14
how many of those kids are coming out of high school?
1:53:16
Zero. You know, you know what I mean
1:53:18
once say zero maybe once every you know few years.
1:53:21
So to win the SEC in the 100 is going to take sub 1099
1:53:26
something. Well, that means you got to take
1:53:28
a bunch of 10/10/10, 2010, 30 kids, by the way.
1:53:31
That's a handful of kids and develop them.
1:53:33
And to develop a kid from 10310 two down to 99, that takes work
1:53:37
just like it takes the coach. There's a lot of coaches out
1:53:40
there that can take 11 flats to 10/5.
1:53:41
That's amazing to me. I know 10-5 ain't gonna win the
1:53:44
SEC, but that you've developed, but it's just as hard to take
1:53:47
that 10310 two kid down to 99. Yeah.
1:53:49
That margin is so much smaller. So much smaller.
1:53:52
So, so hard, so I never. I just, I I I always fight back
1:53:54
when it's like yeah they don't want they only want ready made
1:53:56
kids and I just like boy that show me one.
1:54:00
Maybe there's one in the world and we are recruiting globally.
1:54:02
So yeah maybe there's one in the world that can step in and
1:54:04
immediately become an SEC and national champion off the bat.
1:54:07
But the vast majority of them, they have to get better to win
1:54:10
those titles. So I was going to fight back
1:54:12
that James man I can't thank you enough.
1:54:15
You know it really does mean a lot to me.
1:54:16
You know as we do these podcasts I always say, you know this
1:54:19
podcast is not easy to listen to because it's long.
1:54:21
We're the hour and 54 minutes right now.
1:54:24
But that means it's also hard to to do them, to record them.
1:54:27
And you know to ask you this time of you James, you know the
1:54:30
normal time period this would have been hard for you 'cause to
1:54:33
get 2 hours of your time. You like I said, you're 6 not
1:54:35
even six weeks on the job. You're at little known secret.
1:54:38
He's actually at a meet right now.
1:54:39
He's not even in Oklahoma right now.
1:54:42
So this I don't own this beautiful.
1:54:44
Backdrop this, yeah. He wanted to make sure we point
1:54:46
that out if. You are watching on YouTube.
1:54:48
That's not his house. That's not his office.
1:54:50
That's not his decor. That's his, his his home for the
1:54:53
weekend, here for the track meet.
1:54:56
So. But James, I just want to say
1:54:57
thank you, man. It really humbles me that you'd
1:55:00
give us the time. It's the most important thing,
1:55:02
most valuable thing that you can give us is, is time.
1:55:04
So I'm really grateful. I think, you know, I'm amazed by
1:55:07
your story. I think that's why we didn't get
1:55:08
into some of the topics that I think would have been natural to
1:55:11
talk about with you. And that's transfer portal and
1:55:13
things like that. But I think the journey of where
1:55:16
and how you got to where you are today is extremely interesting,
1:55:20
valuable. I think there's people listening
1:55:22
that are going to be like, wow, wait a minute, James this big
1:55:24
time track coach, he didn't start.
1:55:27
He didn't go to school at an LSU and that's how he got the job.
1:55:29
And all this. Like it's it's really cool to
1:55:31
see that you can go to any school and be any type of
1:55:35
athlete and work your butt off network correctly.
1:55:38
I think that was a great lesson that we learned today and
1:55:40
continue to move up and be real cognizant.
1:55:43
James, what a great lesson about not just chasing that that that
1:55:47
that logo, but making sure it's right for you, right for your
1:55:50
family, right for your children, right for your wife.
1:55:53
I think that is an extremely viable lesson that we all need
1:55:56
to continue to work towards in our careers, whether you're a
1:55:59
coach or you're you're a guy like me on the private sector
1:56:03
side. So, man, just so thankful,
1:56:04
grateful that you joined us today and we're rooting for you,
1:56:07
man. I appreciate it.
1:56:08
Mike, it's 6. Weeks in, I can't wait to see.
1:56:10
Six months and six years, man, because it's still a whirlwind
1:56:13
right now for you. And it's it's going to be
1:56:15
exciting to see you put your fingerprints on on this.
1:56:17
You know, like I said, I admired you for many, many years.
1:56:19
So I'm really excited for you. I know it must be special
1:56:21
because you told me the school that I wanted to nominate you or
1:56:25
refer you to was a is a special school.
1:56:27
And if you didn't take that one. So it must mean OU is really,
1:56:31
really special. And so I'm excited.
1:56:33
I'm happy for them. I think they're lucky to have
1:56:35
you and just we're rooting for you, man.
1:56:37
I can't wait to see how it all kind of continues to to move
1:56:40
forward. I appreciate it, Mike, man,
1:56:42
obviously. Keep doing what you do you
1:56:43
advocate for the sport and and that's the only thing we can ask
1:56:45
and and and appreciate in this world 'cause this is doesn't get
1:56:48
the coverage doesn't get the press and you do an incredible
1:56:51
job of kind of advocating for it.
1:56:52
So definitely appreciate that and I've caught a bunch of your
1:56:55
podcasts and you know you may get the lowest ratings you've
1:56:57
got in a long time on this one. But I I still appreciate it.
1:57:01
I still appreciate it my time either way.
1:57:03
So don't hold it against me If people really are interested in
1:57:05
hearing me talk. I love you to death.
1:57:07
All right, everybody. Let's prove him wrong.
1:57:09
Of course, if you're out listening at this stage, you've
1:57:11
already listened to it, so you've already proved him wrong.
1:57:14
But it's great. I'm glad to have you as guest
1:57:16
#250. Man, it's a real honor for me to
1:57:18
have you on the show. Thank you guys and gals for
1:57:20
being here listening. This show does not exist.
1:57:22
We need the guest, right? But we need people to listen.
1:57:24
If a tree falls in the woods and no one's there.
1:57:26
Does it make sound? Does a podcast exist If no one
1:57:28
listens. So I'm so happy and proud that
1:57:30
you guys would be here. Join us next week.
1:57:32
We'll do it all over again. We'll go to.
1:57:34
It's not a round Number, but we'll do 251.
1:57:35
So check us out next week and we'll uplift and honor another
1:57:38
great coach. Thanks everybody if it goes to
1:57:47
appreciate. The coach, the ones appoint
1:57:49
people most every season needs a voice of reason speaking the
1:57:53
growth you got to prep for. You carry the load, ice, coffee
1:57:56
to the soul. For those of us who stand to go
1:57:58
proper handoff, to stay in the zone with you packing for the
1:58:01
road, There's more than one way to go.
1:58:03
Take notes. That's paying, you're told.
1:58:05
It ain't practice. If you're purchasing Claire, it
1:58:07
can't happen to you. Listen, what both is.
1:58:09
Can't mentor without a mentor. Years of experience.
1:58:12
You can reinvent those years every plans.
1:58:15
Got a standard to live up to. Enterprise, sacrifice.
1:58:18
Can you give up you. It's a choice and a fight, not a
1:58:20
win or lose. It's not a ploy.
1:58:22
But the vice y'all can make more moves.
1:58:24
It's not about how to. It's all about why.
1:58:26
You don't know till you know who you are inside six.
1:58:29
When you waste the time, choose none.
1:58:31
So we all forced the finish line.
1:58:33
The work ain't done. So we learn from the experts.
1:58:35
For y'all got to put in the legwork kill athletics network.
1:58:39
It's all about connections put together for the profession.
1:58:42
To every track coach could be blessed.