Latest / Bozeman Builders Science / Ep. 3: Josh Lee - Bighorn Customs

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Ep. 3: Josh Lee - Bighorn Customs · Bozeman Builders Science

• Ian: Alright, we are roll Josh: Great. my name's Josh Lee. I'm a general con like everybody and their brother, I'm a general contractor in the Gallatin Valley. So I always I always get a kick out of it Ian. Whenever you push on people, they're like, I'm a builder and then you're like, Well, what did you build? And they say, Well, I built my cousin's sister's niece's shed And so the bar's pretty low in Montana, but that's what I call myself. So Ian: How do you get into it? Josh: when my senior year of high school, me, my dad and brother took a year and we built a spec house. And so I'd always been in construction, you know, worked for landscaping guys and stuff growing up and then yeah, but started doing that spec there. Then I went and did a bunch of other stuff for a ton of other guys and when I was twenty one I went out on my own and did a spec and whatever. Just kinda just grown from there. Ian: that's why I've been really looking forward to getting you on because there is this difference. Like you're in a unique position that you do a lot of spec homes and various different styles, but you also have the one off high end custom home. And I've Josh: Sure. Ian: always been curious on the difference there. Not that like one is higher quality than the other, but there's so many differences there and I wanted to pick your brain on some of that. Josh: Yeah, a hundred percent. Ian: How do those differ just overall if you were explaining to somebody who didn't know the difference between a spec home and a custom home? Josh: Sure. Well, so I mean, definition of spec home is a home built on speculation, right? So we go out, we get funding, we purchase the lot, we build it on the speculation that we're gonna find somebody to buy it after it's already, you know, started or completed, just depending on what stage it's at. While custom is much more homeowner has a piece of property or is looking to buy a piece of property, they contact me. We go out and we, you know, it's every aspect of that home is designed. so right now I'm doing a home up Spring Hill where it's for two architects, commercial architects, and they, yeah, reached out to me. They already had the lot purchased, they already, you know, their architects, they already had their plan sets. And so, you know, we went through the bidding process, signed pre construction contract, bid it out for and then after, you know, I competed against a couple of other guys. Once we got through that pre construction c process, signed a contract and every aspect of that home is their d decision while on a spec home w it's a it's a name of time. So spec homes are speed, custom homes are, you know, proficient, but, you know, if there's a decision that needs to be made by the homeowner on a custom, I'll stop construction until that decision's made. While on a spec, you know, it is Four months. Like my state build time on spec is four months. While on a custom it's twelve to sixteen. So Ian: Is it almost easier in the custom side a lot of this stuff already being sorted out? Like the architects already having a plan set and already essentially knowing what they want? Sure. Josh: No, it's a lot more time. It's just like a game of telephone, right? So on a cus on a on a spec, a subcontractor's needs an answer. They call me, I give them an answer. It's just boom boom. But on a c on a custom, you know, a subcontractor needs an answer. I reach out to the architect, they reach out to the owner, the owner, you know, reaches out, I set up meetings between them and vendors, all this stuff. They make a decision. them and the architect talk about it and then me and the architect and the owner have a conversation about it. And so there's just, you know, there's only three or four more pe there's two or three more people involved, but there's so many more just conversations. Everything's custom. Everything's custom. And so going back to the quality though that you had talked about, without a doubt, so the way that I my goal as a builder is builder gr specs are builder grade products instill installed as well as possible for that product. Well on a custom it's high end products installed to a higher grade. So there's definitely a level of quality between them, just because but you also like anything in life, you get what you pay for, you know. So but our goal is every builder grade product in a spec is installed as well as it possibly can be. So Correct. Yep. Yep. Okay. Ian: How much of the process with a spec home is already defined before you start? It sounds like it's all there. You can do it in four months. Yeah. You have very few questions. Josh: Exactly. The goal is that it's all there. Or or even if it's not there, because it's just me making those decisions, I don't have to talk to anybody else. So let's say I don't have siding decided and I say, I need to order my siding today. Well, the last one was blue, this one's gray. So there you go. And then I just order that siding take off again. and so but everything is more set in stone and there's just such a pared down decision making process that allows us to go a lot. Ian: You're almost the the homeowner at that point making the call on site. Josh: our money, we'll do with our money what we want. Much like on a custom it's their money. We do with their money what they want. So Ian: Yeah, stark difference. how much does like an HOA play into that Josh: Sure. it really does just depend on the subdivision. Metal Arc, where you know, you guys have done a ton of stuff for us. that HOA is developer controlled, and so it has not been turned over to the homeowners yet. So there's not as much emotion as there can be when the homeowners are involved. and so it's you know, a lot of it is the developer just says, Don't build me a pink house with purple polka dots. you know, let's make this a presentable house. And then we just get approved. but, you know, I've built in other subdivisions where I built in Prescott a couple homes in Prescott Ranch a couple years ago. and that was probably the most intense, you know, ARC review that I've ever gone through, architectural review committee that I've ever gone through. There's like ten thousand dollars in fees that had to be paid for, you know, just in case you damage the road or something. And so the HOA Fundamentally my I I'll say this, my biggest business practice is I want to be the easiest person to work with that you've ever worked with because I don't like working. The first time that I get a call from somebody and I look at my phone when their name pops up and I feel anxiety, I don't work with them anymore. I just say that's the that's the that's the hint. And so I never want to be that guy. So whenever someone gets my call, I don't want them to say, it's Josh. shit. I want them to say, it's Josh, you know. So, Whenever it comes to an HOA, I just go in there and I don't try to, you know, flex. I just say, You tell me what you need and then we'll go from it. Then we'll go from there and I design the house according to that. The one thing with HOAs, and this is a little bit of a hack, is they can only enforce on you what they're enforcing on others. And so if you know you're in an HOA, your HOA is riding your butt about well, you you need this design element, you need this design element. Go take pictures. If you can find three other houses that don't have that design, two other houses that don't have that design element, then it's precedence. You can go back, you can say, hey, listen, I understand that you may desire this, but you obviously have not been, and maybe it was before your time and someone else wasn't enforcing it, but it's not fair and right for you to enforce this when you aren't doing it on these other guys. So here's my plan set design that matches what is with in the rest of the subdivision. One. once you make them retroactively go back and add this on to their current existing house, I'll be happy to implement it. And ninety nine percent of the time they just say, All right, cool. Ian: I assume there's not like an update where twenty homes are built, you're gonna build four more, and then they update Josh: before there is a possibility of that, but that has to be filed with the state. So whenever there's an update to the ARC or to the, you know, HOA cov C C covenants and restrictions, C and Rs, they ha in order for it to be official, it has to be filed with the state. So Ian: Hmm. What does building repeated spec homes? I'm sure there's a feedback loop there. You can build efficiency, but also you get better at at dealing with these random things like that. How has that helped you as a builder? Josh: in the beginning of your career, quality is built through quantity. And so it's like that story of the professor, the college professor who had two pottery classes, and in the one he said, Your goal is to make one perfect pot. And I I just that's the only goal. Like I you know, come in, practice, do whatever you want, but then the semester I want a perfect pot. And then the other class, he said, Your job is is to make as many possible pots as is humanly as many pots as is humanly possible. And at the end of the semester, the the class that made more pots was making higher quality pots faster. And the other class that's the goal is to only make one pot. It was a, you know, it was falling apart, the handles weren't lined up. And so for me with the specs, Yeah, quantity builds quality. And where integrity comes in, and you me have talked about integrity a little bit outside of here, is you're gonna make mistakes when you're going for qu quantity, and that's where integrity comes in. And so I've made a lot of mistakes, but I've always said I'll spend every dollar. Like literally on my profit line items on projects in my own in-house budget, I take the profit line item and I relabel it fix the fuck up fund. Because At the end of the pro at the end of the day, I know that I'm here for the next 20, 40 years. I have to figure out and become the best at what I do. And that means if you make a mistake because you're trying to, you know, go you go you're going too fast, you make a dumb mistake, things happen, you have to fix it. Even if it means there's no profit in that particular job. Ian: I can see that being challenging with spec homes because you're essentially building before a homeowner is involved, or at least a large portion of that build. what happens when somebody comes in and they want to make a change when you're eighty percent of the way done? I I'm assuming there's areas you can change things like trim or fixtures, but as far as layout, you're probably kinda locked. Josh: yeah, yeah. I tell everybody I'll spend as much of your money as you tell me to. So right now you're coming in, we just drywalled. I'm not moving any walls unless you're willing to pay money. And you know, we set up a time and material contract, eighty bucks an hour, a hundred and twenty bucks an hour, whatever it is per guy. And then, you know, I I'd never try to hose anyone if they come in. but also I I'm not I have to make up interest payments if I'm going backwards on spec homes that I'm paying out of our pocket. and so, yeah, I don't know. Anything's possible. But with the spec side versus a custom, you know, even like the higher end customs, I've started very inexperienced, but I've started negotiating with a couple of guys. We're looking at doing a couple of like the two to four million dollar specs. if somebody came in there, that's a different question than on a six hundred thousand dollar spec. And so on a six hundred thousand dollar spec, just depend whenever they come in, I say everything from here out, that is easily you you can choose anything you want. And and we let But on the two to four million, if somebody came in, I'd probably say Yes, sir, like whatever you whatever you want, you know, just to get her sold. So but on the smaller ones, the interest interest is what kills you on the specs. Because I have a really good build price per square foot. I think I'm more competitive or as competitive as all the other guys in the valley, especially for the quality. But if the house hasn't sold, the interest is what kills you. I built two specs a couple years ago and I ended up losing seventy thousand dollars between because and I fire saled the one because I just wanted out of it. Once I have a bad taste about something, I'm just like, whatever it takes, I just want out. but I mean I I think, yeah, whatever. Over the course of a year I and a half, and I was overleveraged on them, I was being stupid, but I paid eighty-five thousand bucks in interest. Well I'm not making a hundred grand a spec house, you know, like on a six hundred thousand dollar home. You just aren't making a hundred grand, you know. So, I lost a lot of money on it, but whatever. Time is of the essence of specs. Ian: Well, it's a learning experience too. Josh: yeah. Whatever. I'm a quote guy, but Tony Robbins, he says When people succeed we tend to celebrate and pat ourselves on the back and when we fail we ponder and all growth comes out of pondering. When you're winning, you're like nothing needs to happen. I'm killing it. I'm the best. But it's when you fail that you have to, you know, have some honest self reflection and say, All right, this is what has to change. So Ian: Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes knowing what not to do is arguably more important than knowing what to do. Josh: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Both. It's both and. Ian: What does that repetition in the in the spec homes teach you that the custom homes doesn't? And then maybe vice versa. What does doing the custom stuff teach you that building spec homes doesn't? Josh: Yeah. it is a completely different game. So like it's a completely different process. The mistake that I've made from, you know, going to specs to the customs is I I think that you can try to go too fast on a custom and it can hose ya because everything's a little more detailed. and then yeah, I mean obviously on the specs it really does just come down to the time with a spec. And so if you take too much time on a spec, you're losing money. But on a custom if you go too fast, you can miss a detail that then, you know, per contract you have to go back and fix. And so, the other thing that I do is I do a municipal work. So I partner with like a couple of of the local big excavation companies and we'll do like lift stations, you know, water treatment plant and you know, things of that nature. So they'll do building out and then I do building in and up. And that is a true fixed cost contract. So with the state, state of Montana is a low bid required state. So you have to be low bid. and there's a clause in there that it has to be, you know, you have to it has to be reasonable believe reasonably believable that you are able of doing the job. So, you know, if it's a ten million dollar job or a million dollar job and you come in and you bid a hundred thousand, the state's not going to take your bid. They could take your bid bond, which is ten percent. So whenever you bid, you have to put a bid bond down. So on a million dollar job you have to keep basically give them a bid bond check for a hundred grand. If you don't complete it, they keep that. So you know, in theory, if it was a million dollar job I bid a hundred thousand, put a ten thousand dollar bid bond down, they could keep that bid bond, that ten thousand dollar check and say, You are not able to do it for a hundred grand and give it to the next guy. but anyway, with that with that fixed bid, if I come in on a million dollar project, if I come in two hundred thousand dollars under budget, that is pure profit. I mean, it's in my it's in my pocket. But if I go over two hundred thousand dollars, that is truly out of my pocket. Like I have to pay that out you know, out of pocket. And so I kinda forgot where I was going there, you know, I'm gonna be honest. Ian: Well that that opens me up to another question. So if it's a million dollar project and you bid five hundred grand and they accept you, that you're getting a million bucks regardless of how much it costs you to build the project? No. Josh: If I bid it for five hundred thousand, I I do it for and it and it costs me a million, I'm paying five hundred thousand out of pocket on top of the five hundred thousand dollar project. Now that's why, you know, be dangerous at what you do. I really try hard to be really good at bidding because not knowing how to bid properly will Ian: yeah, you're not gonna make any money. Josh: Yeah. Going back to the pondering losses, I've done that. So it's hard hard learned lessons. So Ian: Well, and it feels shady saying, I'm not gonna make any money if I don't bid it properly, but at the end of the day, you can't do what you do unless you make money. Josh: Yes. So when I started out, I there were all the like I remember I rebuilt whatever, nineteen years old, I rebuilt a whole deck for a guy for three hundred bucks. And I didn't own a drill, so I went and spent two hundred sixty bucks on a drill. Like I did I did three days worth of work for forty bucks. Actually, no, I I bought the fasteners too, so I did it for like ten bucks and so Which can make you feel good. I'm all for charity. And I think that there are legitimate instances where I will, like, you know, say, like, hey, I can obviously tell this is not a good time for you. I'm gonna just help you out. but you're right, like you have to bid, like understanding what true overhead is, like you need to be able to replace your tools on a schedule. And I don't know what your guys' schedule is. My schedule is five to seven years. Every five to seven years, I should be making enough money that I can go out and I can buy a new truck. I should be making enough money that I can go out and that I can, you know, pay for the proper insurance. I c you know. also we aren't in business to for wage, right? Like if I'm gonna only make thirty bucks an hour being a general contractor, well, whatever. William's just paying thirty-five, so I might as well just go work for Will. Ian: Yeah, it's way less headache and stress to just go get an hourly job. Josh: So but bidding properly also one thing I've no one thing that I'm a believer in is bidding properly allows you the ability to you know, like I said, you know, I relabel my profit line item as fix the fuck up fund. I'm gonna fix this no matter what, because my bills are covered, right? So I keep my overhead in my business incredibly low so that if I if I have to fix a mistake, I don't sweat it because that's not I'm not taking literally taking food out of my child's mouth to fix something. And so bidding properly allows you the peace of mind to stand behind your work while also not you know, not starving your family. You know, I have three kids and a lot of guys I think the mistake they make when they're bidding incredibly low and not properly accounting for it is they have to have that money. They're they're truly hand to mouth. And so I know a ton of builders who they say they're full of integrity and I believe when they're flush with cash. But when you make a ten thousand dollar mistake and you only have two thousand bucks, you actually can't fix it. Because you you need ten grand to fix that. You don't have ten thousand bucks, you got two grand and your mortgage is twenty two hundred. So you are not, you know, you're not able to stand behind your work, even if you have good intentions. and so bidding properly allows me to, you know, not even worry about fixing any mistakes. So Ian: Yeah and it leads to better quality in the long run. Josh: It does, yeah. Yeah. Ian: Yeah. Having proper tools. Josh: Yep, having proper tools. Exactly. Yeah. I don't what does that look like for you guys? I I imagine that there's some guys out here in town who are just like, The fans a hundred bucks. I need a hundred bucks. So two hundred bucks for a fan installed. Ian: It's definitely frustrating. Montana's very cowboy when it comes to a lot of what we do. They don't have a ton of regulations in place. We've been working with the DEQ a lot and they're in the same boat. They don't necessarily want more regulation. But w there needs to be a standardization to it. Josh: Needs to be standardization. I'm a huge believer in that. I was twenty-one when I built my first spec. I was an idiot. You know, like and I'm I'm not that much older now, but I I'm still an idiot. but I don't know, man. I think that there it d to be a general contractor in like Tennessee, I there's a guy I follow on social media down there. You have to have you have to pay a state recognized auditing you know, accounting firm, they come in, they give you a net worth, and you're only allowed to do like, depending on what rating they assign you, three to five times the net worth of your company. So if your company has a net worth of ten thousand bucks, the biggest job you can do is a thirty to fifty thousand dollar job. Wow. And then you have to take like a test to be a general contractor and all that. Now, I think that may be a little much, but like you said, the standardization, I've I've done a ton. My really only my only bragging point I have Is that to my knowledge, out there in Three Forks, I'm the only builder who has not been sued for soil conditions. And so I but I've and I've done some expert witness testimony against some other guys out there. And you're right, man, like I mean, there are guys out there who are doing things that are so like I'm all for like I have been known to fudge the building code occasionally to it's good enoughism. Like that's good enough. But like the stuff that's going on out there, I mean like no tie downs on any of the trusses on entire houses. you know, all this all the foundation issues out there, like there's some stuff out there, like there's some guys who did heel coers who were actually really trying, and so I give them credit for that and the house is still moved. But like there's one house in particular that I did some stuff for. They did on the side of a hill, they dug down, they did a nine foot cut. They flipped over their native soil cut and did a native soil fill of five foot. So nine foot cut, five foot native soil fill, which any excavation guy listening will know like you n you do all cut, all fill. You never do a cut and fill, and you never do cut and fill under one foundation with native material. Especially not, you know, loam, which is basically what that soil was out there. So the house, and then there's you know heaving conditions out there. They didn't properly grade away. There's been a four-inch heave in the front of the house and a three-inch settle in the back of the house. You walk through the house, you can see every outline of every single piece of drywall, walls, ceiling, all that. There's a three-eighth inch crack running the entire way down the house. None of the doors shut. A window broke. Because, like, it was just so much sheer pressure going. And Ian: Settling because Josh: heaving. But the settling is. Because they did a five foot native soil fill. And then they threw nine inches of structural fill over and called it a structural slab with no geomat fabric or nothing. So whatever. I agree with you. I think that there should be some standardization or even in the county, have some inspections in the county to where, you know, they catch things like that. Like in the county in Montana, it is you have a rough and plumbing and electrical. a finished plumbing and electrical and then a sewer inspection where you call them if they don't show up within forty eight hours. You can literally draw it on a napkin if you want a has built of the dimensions of the sewer and bury it. So I say you have four and a half inspections in the county and that's that's it. Ian: Wow, I definitely thought there'd be more in that. I mean, obviously within city limits it it's a little bit different. Josh: There's a ton, yeah. Ian: But w why do you see that difference there? Is it lack of inspectors? Josh: I've had a hell of a time. So on commercial projects in the county, there are higher, there's a lot more inspections. and I mean within the last so I've had three three municipal projects or two two projects, three buildings in the county. So three building permits in the county for the city of Bozeman. So it's property of City of Bozeman owns in the county. So it's owned by City of Bozeman, but it's inspected by the county. and on the commercial side, I in the last year they've gone through four inspectors and they're always just like quitting, changing. So Montana definitely has an issue with keeping state inspectors in the same location. And also like one guy for one for a bit there, the inspector here, he was living in Shepherd and he was driving over here three days a week and he was basically inspecting from like the canyon up to Big Sky all the way to To Big Timber. Ian: Why do you think that is? I surely you have some insight as a builder of like, hey, this is actually harder than expected for these guys, or they're not getting paid properly, or Josh: Probably. Probably. Nobody gets paid enough. Well so and commercial commercial I think is there's not much commercial going on in the county and so you can always get an inspection. And then I think it is just lack of manpower and then also lack of like standardization of what's expected, you know? Because like even between Bozeman and Belgrade, they're on a different international residential code. So a different IRC codes. Like Bozeman's Belgrade is adopting twenty twenty five and I believe that Bozeman's still like under twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two. Ian: How frequently does that change? Josh: Not since twenty twenty one. I think that there's probably I'd say that between the time it's issued to the time they adopt it is probably a two to three year lag time. So, you know, Bozeman probably only adopted twenty went from two thousand I think they went from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two IBC or IRC. so there's a three year lag between when it's issued to when they adopt new. so Belgrade's adopting twenty twenty five semi this year, really most of it'll happen next year. actually I think they they might they're pretty close to adopting all of it now. so whatever. Probably won't change Ian: Him talking. Josh: anything till twenty thirty. Ian: Hm. Bo I I feel like we're building more in Belgrade than we are in Bozeman at the moment. Josh: You think so? I was talking to I don't know. So I was on City County Planning Board for Belgrade for a couple of years. when I I lived in Belgrade, I moved out to Three Forks, but I was the county representative for the City County Planning Board. There's whatever, three to six members from the county, three to six members from three to six members who live in the county, three to six members who live in the city. And then all of the preliminary subdivision review, we would go over all that and then there'd be hearings. So I know a couple of the guys at City of Belgrade. Right now there are five residential permit applications in the city of Belgrade. Ian: Really? Josh: Yep. And I'm three of them. Ian: And that's required before you start. before you even break ground. That's Josh: Once it once you have a good enough relationship with the city, they'll let you break ground, but you can't do any inspections until they've reviewed it, approved it, and you've paid your permit. Which also speaking of permits, City of Belgrade has like crazy raised their prices on permits like over the last like three years. Like first spec I ever did, first single family I ever did in Belgrade, I think I paid thirteen, twelve to th I think I paid eleven thousand eight hundred and fifty dollars for you know. everything water meter included now the last one that I just paid for it was it's a it's a twenty two hundred square foot house twenty three hundred square foot house so it's a little bit bigger. I'm not finishing the basement on it though or the crawl or the half half basement. twenty two thousand two hundred dollars was the check that I wrote to the city of Belgrade and then they're gonna charge me another thousand bucks for a water meter. And then also now, like when they hook up water, they charge two hundred and fifty bucks. They charge a hundred and twenty bucks for you to do your back T test. But they won't turn on water until you p do the back T test. And then I pay Bridger Analytical for the back T test. And so I don't know. Belgrade is blowing up and they're also but if you ask they're like, We aren't making any money. I'm like, that is just a load of sh that is a crock of shit. But either way, only five new building. Ian: That's extremely surprising to me. I would expect it to be ten times that. Yeah. With at least the number of Josh: You know, there's a lot of guys building and there's a lot that are approved. But it was so slow there for a little bit that I actually had a plan set that I submitted on July twenty third and it just got approved yesterday because the planning reviewer, she just she didn't review anything since July fifteenth because there was, you know, I I think it was part of it was a mistake. I think she just kinda lost track of time, got busy with other things. But like there was nobody was calling her every other day, being like, Hey, it's been fourteen days, you know, it's been sixteen days and because, you know, there's just nothing for her to review. Mm and I was busy with other stuff and I kinda woke up one day. I woke up on the twenty sixth of August and was like, It's been a month, like, what's going on? Ian: How frequently does that hold you up? Josh: Going back to being the easiest person to work with, I really do I I I believe that I can call and I can yell and scream at somebody and they'll do exactly what I want once. And then they'll never take my call again. And anytime they do, they'll be you know, they'll just not grease the wheels, you know. And so City of Belgrade's been really good to me because I I just try to be honest with them. and so Typically they'll allow they'll grant me a special permit to dig the to dig the foundation before the permit's approved. And then so, you know, and with financing and everything, financing usually takes so I'll submit to the bank. We'll we'll submit to the bank and the city on the same day. submit to the bank and the city on the same day. And so, you know, I'm not gonna dig anything until the bank approves it as well. So there's their planning review time's usually pretty decent. Ian: I assume you're doing a lot of subcontracting for that or how much of the work do you actually do yourself? Josh: Well, so I'm in a really blessed opportunity. I don't know if I mentioned this earlier or not, but on all the specs that I do over in Metalark, those are for another builder. And so I don't have any of the financing, but I'm a ten nine nine, much like you guys would be for Infinity Homes. and so me and my draftsmen, half the time their draftsmen design the plans, half the time my draftsmen design the plans. I'll submit to the city and then I just handle all the management of all that. and review everything. I'll handle selections with homeowners. I'll handle all the sub and material selection. except for there's one supplier that the owner over there is like business partners with and so I have to use which I don't love, but it they they're not the best, but it is what it is. So but either way, my contract with them is pure management and so I don't self perform anything and if I do I charge an hourly rate for it. So Yeah. It's kinda like th I believe in niching down. I can install a radon fit. But I probably I'm not gonna install it as well or as fast as you are. And I'm also not gonna understand the ins and outs of it. I'm not gonna, you know, even think of like, you know, doing things that you guys do because I don't specialize in that. And so when I started out on my first spec, I dug it, I poured the foundation, I framed it, I roofed it, I didn't do any of the MEP mechanical engineering, mechanical, electrical or plumbing. insulation or drywall, but I painted it, I laid all the tile flooring, I did all the flooring except carpet, trimmed it, set cabinets, I cut my own countertops, all that. And that's what I did for up until twenty twenty three. I do two to three specs a and I would self perform everything. I'd frame a twenty four hundred square foot house by myself in five to six weeks. And so I killed myself doing it. And I also real it taught me, you know, I have a broad skill set. So My my bullshit detector is pretty good when it when you know, when a subcontractor comes in and is talking, you know, just made up stuff. I'm like, Well, I've actually done this. I'm not as skilled as you, but I know you're lying. I've I've done enough to know, you know, the basics of it. But I'll n never gonna be as efficient or proficient as the subcontractor who does it all day, every day. And so, you know, I could frame, you know, for six weeks, and at the end of that six weeks I was Doing great. I mean, I could have kept up with just about anybody. Well, then you go to painting. And so you don't, and then you don't trim, and then you don't frame for another six to eight months, or whatever you get done with the previous one. And so I even if I can do something, I'll never do it as good as somebody who does it all day, every day, year round. And so, because of that, I say I'm just a windowship contractor. My job is to find the guys with the best skills and the best pricing. and bring them in so that 'cause in the long run that actually gives a better product to my Ian: Yeah, better quality at the end of the day. Josh: Yeah, and faster. You know, it goes back to the pottery, the two pottery classes. Well, you know, I framed a ton of ho I I framing is where I kind of grew up and, you know, specialized in, but like, you know, painting. I can paint that house, two houses a year, but it takes me three two weeks, three weeks, and the product is actually not as good as the guy who comes in and does it in five days with three guys. Ian: And does one every five years? Josh: Does one every five days because he knows tips and tricks, you know? And so he's gonna be like, you know, if we caulk this certain way against this window, it won't crack in three months. While me, I'm like, just throw some caulk on there. And then when it cracks, I'm like, Culk cracks, we'll add some more, you know? And so it's a better product. Ian: Yeah, and that comes back to why it's so important to bid properly because now you're able to afford those guys or put that into the bid properly that allows you to then hire them. Well Josh: Time is the biggest so back when my great grandfather was doing things, material was the constraint because labor was a lot cheaper. Well, now labor is without a doubt the biggest line item on pricing for you guys too, right? Like you're paying ten times more for your labor than you are for your fans. Ian: Yep. Josh: Easy, right? And so the constraint is actually changed to where the guys who are efficient They save on labor, it's they're actually cheaper than me. Because for me, I need three weeks. Well, you know, I want X amount a day. Well, those guys, they're employees, and so they don't have the overhead. You know, each individual employee doesn't have the overhead that I do. And so he's charging less for his employees. They're more efficient because they've done it 10,000 more times than me. And so it's actually cheaper. And so anytime that a subcontract I've had a couple subcontractors who they'll call and they'll be like, yeah, I do it all. I do everything. I do everything. And I say, so you're actually gonna cost me more money and give me a less good product than if I just had for those, you know, six scopes, than if I did just hired six individual dedicated trades. Ian: There's an interesting change when you go from spending money to save time versus spending time to save money. Josh: Yeah. Ian: I hadn't considered that when it comes to building. So that's an interesting. Josh: it's true. Yeah, it's true. Ian: Okay, so then from going to the custom side of things. the the spending money to save time or spending time to save money. Is there areas where homeowners tend to overpay for something that or spend more on something that isn't necessarily going to improve quality or make the home better? Like where do people overpay where they don't need to? Josh: I think that it's a level man, there's a law about it. I can't remember what it is, but it's it's the law of diminishing returns for the effort exerted. And so, you know, I'll just use insulation. Well, I guess there's like there are vanity items, but you know Ian: Outside of the quote unquote luxury thing. Josh: Correct. Well, it's you know, like window packages. You can spend eighty two hundred bucks on a window package or you can spend eight hundred and twenty thousand bucks on a window package. Like there's a home up Trail Creek that a buddy of mine did some installed some windows on. They're gold plated windows. There's a gold foil on the inside of the second pane. and they spent like two and a half million dollars to bring them over from somewhere in Europe, Sweden or something like that. And so, you know. That's a level of luxury to where and I look at that and I say, That's diminishing returns. You're spending two million dollars, and I don't know how much it actually costs, but you're spending two million dollars for gold plated windows that maybe they give you a 0.5 higher solar gain reading, you know, like I could Ian: That's never Josh: have got you. Yeah, it's never gonna pay it back. It's a bragging, right? You know, like you want to say, look at my windows from Austria that have that's real gold. You know, I'm wealthy, you know. And so people are always flexing, you know, keeping up with the Joneses. But I think that there are a lot of things that people who are looking at a custom home should spend more money on than if it's just over a spec. but most of those things are just preference and like what are you gonna use every day? You know, so or like specific design layouts. and in all of those, there are like there's levels, right, to everything. So like I'll use installation as an example 'cause I just went over this on a project. There is basic bat insulation in the walls, which is an R21. And then there's something called flash and bat, where there's it's two inches of spray foam, and then it's a three-inch bat that's a R thirteen. And then there's full spray foam insulation. Well, bat insulation is 19,000 bucks. The flash and bat is 27,000 bucks, and the full spray foam is 50,000 bucks. I look at it and I say, The difference between spray foam, so a flash and bat and bat insulation is a huge difference. And I always recommend going to flash and bat because it's more expensive, but it just makes everything in the house tight. It brings down any, you know, your blower door test, your air exchange rate, all that. I always recommend that one, but very rarely, if ever, do I recommend going to a full foam, spray foam insulation because I just say the juice isn't worth the squeeze. You're already getting 90 90% of the benefits of foam with just two inches. That last three is just, you know, it gets you, you know, it's twice as much money, but it only gets you fifteen percent, twenty percent better, you know, a a better reading at the end. And so I say, it's not really worth the squeeze, but absolutely flash and bat compared to bat insulation is a hundred percent worth it in my mind because of what it brings. And so I think that there's a ton of things like that where, you know, going and getting some crazy expensive door. From a c small, you know, one off custom door maker, I say, I don't really think that's worth it on interior door that, you know, goes to your guest bathroom. But a solid closed door with an upgraded hinge package, a hundred percent. Because every time you shut it, it just sounds like quality versus a hollow co holocore door. So Ian: we've been talking a lot about building envelope and pressure differentials in buildings and how air moves. And I I hadn't considered the spray foam just sealing all of those little gaps and cracks. Josh: Yeah, yeah. And you'll notice it like if you walk in like with wind. you walk into a house that's just bat insulation and you walk into a house that has, you know, the two inch flash and bat, it it's decibels. I mean, like it's it's a noticeable difference. And so I don't know, I it's a personal preference thing. Ian: On that, I've been walking a couple spec homes here north of Belgrade and I'm starting to see more frequently bat insulation on interior walls. Josh: Yeah. Ian: Is that becoming more common? Josh: Yeah, because it's like an extra six hundred bucks. Really? Yeah. It's so Ian: Is it worth it? Josh: not unless you upgrade a rock wool. Ian: So it really doesn't give you a noticeable sound deadening. Josh: Well, I think it's like the law of diminishing returns. It's like the di if you're asking me if there's a difference between a two by four wall, drywall on either side that has three inch fiberglass insulation in it and no fiberglass insulation in it, yes, there is a difference. But I did so this is a personal experience deal. I did it on my personal home. They were like, we have a couple extra baths of this. We'll just throw it in for you for free. I said, Yeah, it's it's super common. So there's a couple of levels you can do all interior walls or you can do bed and bath interior walls. And that's kind of, you know, whatever. Like who cares if you h hear a little bit more noise in your pantry, like big whoop. But at night, at bed, things happen in there that maybe you don't want the whole house hearing. And so, I did the fiberglass bats. I have an incredibly embarrassing story about my son making noises in public saying, This is what mom and dad were doing last night. It doesn't work. Okay, so I don't care what they say, but Ian: So if you do it, do it right. Josh: Do the rock wool. yeah, I do rock wool or something like that. So Ian: What about ceilings? I if you don't have fiberglass blow in. Josh: Yeah. Well, I mean you have to have some so something, right? Right. so cellulose or fiberglass is residential code is R forty nine, R fifty, above condition spaces R thirty eight above the garage. But it's kinda one of those deals where w actually this is interesting. Talking about bid building envelope, Ian I'm learning more about like down south, there's a couple of guys I follow down there who they kinda walk through their build process and stuff. And we all do hot roofs up here. So it's you know Insulation directly on the on the roof. It's laying there and above there. And you know you've been up there. It's like on a hundred degree day. It's like 150 degrees up there. In the attic. In the attic. Yep, above the insulation. Versus like everyone else. It seems like a lot of other places they will insulate the actual roof trusses. What's I mean, are more guys starting to do that around here? Have you noticed? Or I mean, pr I'm correct, right? Like predominantly is all hot roof. Ian: Yes, it's I hate it. I hate that fiberglass blowing. If even on an estimate you get up there and kick it around for thirty seconds, I'm coughing for the rest of the day. Yeah. If I forget a mask or the rest. Josh: I don't insulate 'cause I'm allergic to fiberglass. Ian: Really? Yeah. a Josh: I hate it. Ian: an interesting one. Yeah, I on the very high end custom homes, I see this more often in the club. Yeah. It's it's a spray foam upon the roof and then the attic is a quote conditioned space. But I prefer that, obviously. Sure. But then it from like a a mechanical standpoint, a radon fan above your office when there's just drywall between you and the attic, it's noisy. Yeah. And you're not ideally you don't hear these things. But if you've got a five thousand square foot home, I need a bigger fan. Josh: Yeah, you have to move some air. Ian: And it's noisy. Yeah. So I guess in that situation it it's kind of pointless to I guess spray the roof and then also put sound deadening on the ceiling. Yeah. I guess it depends on what you got for mechanical up there. But yeah. I knew about the walls and I'd considered the walls, but from an odd somebody who doesn't know. is it worth doing the ceiling? Josh: I don't think so unless you have like a fan fan blowing. Ian: Well I'll see whole HVAC units up there and it's normal. Josh: And they're loud, yeah. No, you have to do you have to do something, so but I don't know the answer to it, sorry. Ian: W what's something that's relatively inexpensive to incorporate during the build process that becomes a huge pain in the butt later if it gets missed or or not thought of until much later in the build process? Josh: moving walls after drywall is up and finished, redoing doors. so I mean, those are things that are sometimes easy to miss if you aren't, you know, actually getting on site and measuring everything. but I don't know. There's really nothing that you can't add. W unl it's just a question of backtracking. And so, you know, at any given point I can reframe a wall, but if it's when it's There's no nothing there's no electrical, no plumbing in that wall. There's, you know, no drywall on it. That's easy. And we'll we just do it. especially if we're in the wrong. But we try to not have that happen. but yeah, it's just a question of the backtracking. And so but yeah, man, that's a good question though. Something that's say it again. Ian: Something that's relatively inexpensive and easy earlier on in the build process, which again with the framed walls kinda makes sense, but what becomes a huge expensive pain in the butt later on if not thought of or incorporated earlier. Josh: For sure. proper backing, you know, behind, you know, for bathroom fixtures for cabinets. you know, if you want to hang curtains everywhere, well, we want to throw some blocking on either side so that you aren't hanging a thirty pound blackout curtain on a fifteen pound drywall anchor, you know. And so, yeah, just it's just the intentionality of it. any architectural like details or flares, You know, like if you want to add like a little awning off the front of your garage or something like that, make sure that there's proper blocking back there. but I don't know, I tell everybody I'm like like I said, I'll spend as much of your money as you tell me to. And integrity is such a big deal. It's one of my core values as a business, is you wanna add something, I'm just I'm pretty I do transparent pricing. Like I'll show you all the invoices. This is what it this is what it costs, you know? So nothing's nothing's hard to add. Ian: Nothing's free. Josh: Mm. Yeah, nothing's free. Nothing's free, but also nothing's so hard to add that it's prohibitive. Ian: is there something you consistently see buyers or home builders obsessing over unnecessarily so they almost spend more time and effort on something that we kinda talked about that with payoff, but I've gotta think there's something people are consistently just so obsessed over that they almost miss something else because they're spending more time thinking about something than it's worth. Josh: Yeah. Every it it's just s every single homeowner's so different. yeah. Every single homeowner is just so d so different. Like I did a custom out in Harrison. Ronnie, if you're listening to this, you know who you are. and he over fixated on like stuff that I never would have thought of. But then like some of his finishes, he was just like, you know, he he's doing some of the finishes himself and it's like, you know, he's like, let's spend all this extra money on adding four game outlets on every every wall. but then let's go with a two dollar and twenty nine cent flooring. And that's fine. It's whatever everybody cares about. But like for me, I would have flipped that. I would have like, I'll throw a three gang splitter in that outlet if I need another plug in and I'll spend five bucks on flooring, you know? Yeah, yeah, per square foot pricing on flooring or whatever. So Ian: So the flip side of that is I'm consistently frustrated with this. I'll spend so much time and effort on something that doesn't get noticed. And it's not that I need recognition for it to be worth it, but you're nodding like you you relate. Josh: well it well that goes back to the being an expert in your field, right? So for me, I'm gonna say there's a radon fan in the attic, it's good, but you and I both know that there's a ton of stuff you guys do in the crawl space. But if I didn't know that, I'd just be like, the the radon fan's in there, there's some glue dripping down right there, like, I guess it's okay. Well, there's a ton of time and effort and intentionality in the crawl space and so I don't know. I am a big believer in this. it ain't a favor unless someone knows it's a favor. And so like if I ever give a discount on an invoice, I'll call it out. I'll like tell them. I'll be like, hey, I knock I knocked a I knocked five thousand bucks off of your total invoice for this project. I could have taken my family to Aruba for that, but I've really enjoyed working with you. I just wanted to share this as a token of my appreciation. If you just knock five grand off, they're just like, great. They might not even notice it and it's expected. So I I like it's I like I like people owing me favors. it's goes back Gary Vee, Gary Vanger Chuck. He says he says, in every relationship, I like providing fifty-one percent of the value, fifty-two percent of the value so that people want to come work with me. He's like, It's a little bit of a selfish thing in every relationship. There should be a fifty-fifty exchange of value. I like providing just a little bit more so that people have a good connotation of coming and working with me again. But if people don't know that you're providing a little more that you're providing more value than you're receiving, what's what's the point? And it doesn't actually gain you anything. So call it out, Ian. That's what I'd do. I'd be like, hey, I like that. Get down here. Let me show you something. Get down here and knees. I just want to show you this right here. I I've noticed on other guy what other contractors have done is they don't actually take the time to properly flash this. But I just want to let you know we're really committed to a good product. I want to show it to you just so you can understand our quality. Ian: I like that. How do you approach that comparison with competitors? Josh: Well, I'm not good at because I'm pretty damn cheap. I really struggle with vision of like what I want my business to be, because right now I'm in every aspect of construction except private commercial. and so yeah, municipal, you know, kind more the government commercial side, custom homes and specs. One of my goals is that I want to be the most dangerous person at what I do. Like when people say I I want my competitors when they I mean, like w when they say, you know, 'cause sometimes you ask, who else have you got bids from? And when if someone says Josh Lee, I want that person to throw their hat on the ground and like kick their and be like, fuck. Because I want to be the most dangerous at what I do. And so for me, I it's a little bit different question for me than it would be for you guys, because you're like, I'm we we need To get money into scale, all that stuff. I'm a one man show. I have an executive assistant, then I have a ten ninety nine superintendent who's also my framing contractor, who he handles a lot of the onsite stuff, but I don't have any W two employees. And I've kept my overhead super, super low, especially compared to almost any other custom home builder. to where for me I'm just trying to build a portfolio. And be so dangerous at what I do that I can make money at almost whatever wherever I build bid it at. and so it's It may be incredibly stupid. I fully admit that. but like my my bidding, I don't know. I'm just now starting to raise my prices. to where I would consider more of an industry standard because I was like, I need a proof proof of concept. I tell all my subs, I don't pay you to learn. Like if I'm paying you, you should know how to do this. Like it's your job to know. Well, now I know. But before when I didn't know, I w I was like The only thing that matters is that I learn, right? Because quantity builds quality. What matters is that I go, so like I've built thirty-seven homes. I'm building my 37th home right now. I'm it's unquantifiable how much better I am now than I was on my first one. And so I look at and I say, All right, well, that was just paying down my knowledge debt, you know? So now that I've paid down the knowledge debt, I charge a little more industry standard. But Yeah. I don't know. I got a little sidetracked there. I apologize. Going back Yeah, going Ian: I'm enjoying that. Yeah. Josh: back to your question though. whenever people compare, I just try to provide so much value. Alex Homozy, I've only ever gone to one business conference, conference of or you know, seminar of any type, and it was Alex Hormozy's acquisition dot com workshop down in Vegas. and in it he said when what you give away for free is better than their paid stuff, you always win. And so for me, I try to give away as much value as I can for free in the beginning stages of the project so that when it comes down to it, they don't even really look at the price because it is different for me than it is for any of my subcontractors. Like, for example, how far out do you guys schedule? Great. If I'm not talking to somebody right now, I don't have work in eight to twelve months. So like there is a from the time I meet somebody to the time we break around on their po project. averages like six to eight months and then I'm married to them for four to sixteen months and then there's a state of Montana, there's a one year warranty that I anytime anytime anything breaks, I have to go in and fix it for a year after. I'm with that person for two and a half, three years. And so for me, I just try to build that relationship to where at the end of the day, if there's somebody who answers your phone call every time you call with a question when you're trying to bid And then there's one guy who just like is, you know, not really that interested in your project. Who cares if I'm a percent? Because I understand your project. I'm invested in you, you know? So like out of my last like five, four or five custom homes, I'm in the wills of like two of my clients. Because I say, like, I'm like literally married to this person for two years. So I might as well be friends with them. You know, I might as well be invested in who they are as a person. and so that's where the value, I think it's just a different, it's a completely different trade. Like you, they reach out to five guys, you send them a bid, and they make a decision. But for me, there's can be like two to three rounds of bidding within a like, you know, where they're narrowing it down. They reach out to four people, two at three, you know, they reach out to five people, three of those people respond with interest, you narrow it down, and then of those three, th you know, you choose one. And so I feel like it's a almost a completely different world. What do you what do you think? Ian: Yeah. It it's definitely different. I mean, with us with radon and mold being tied to health. Yeah. If I get a call from somebody who's panicked about their high radon levels and I tell them that I'm six months out, yeah, they're going to go find somebody else. Sure. And Josh: That's true. Ian: I competitors aside, I want them to get the service, whether it's with me or not. Yeah. This is important. I believe in it. True value. Yeah. And I want them to get what they need. If I'm six months out, we're doing our job wrong hiring. Josh: yeah. Well and let me may let me add maybe a little color to what I said there is anytime somebody calls and do you it says do you have a bit availability to take a project, I say yes. I just know that from that first conversation till we actually start, it's six months. Yeah. Not because of anything not because of a limitation, but like they don't have plan sets. Okay, well we gotta get with a draftsman, we gotta go through three, four rounds of iteration with that. We gotta call a structural guy. We gotta make sure your financing is laid out. I have to bid it out, you know, like things like that. And so, I mean, if somebody called me tomorrow, I'd start I'd dig a house tomorrow. And I've done that. Actually, I somebody called me and said, I have plan sets. it was a house in Georgetown Lake that I'd bid on. I made through two rounds of bidding. And then he went with another guy and a local guy who, you know, I don't know all the details, but it seems like he was a little bit of a shyster. And the homeowner called me, he said, If you can do the project for fifteen percent cost plus, you can start Monday. And we re negotiate on some stuff, but I'm the I was the listed general contractor on that project that next Monday. So yeah, I I think you're right. Like always being willing to say yes is super important, but the the timeline of it, also here's an interesting stat for you. The Association of Professional Builders, they put out a builder trend report every year, just kind of going over some basic stuff. On average, price aside. something like sixty eight percent of the time, the contractor who touches who has the most touches base the most with the client gets the project. And so you your pricing I think that there's obviously real reasoning within there if you're twenty percent more. For me it we're talking percents. For you guys it could probably be twenty to forty percent difference in pricing. but in the home builder world, like general contractor world, the contractor who touches base the most sixty eight percent of the time gets to the contract. Ian: That's way higher than I figured it would be. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. But if you think about it, who do you want building your house? Somebody who seems like they actually really care about your project in particular, more than any of their other projects, or at least that's what they perceive. You know, I'm like, you're I I'm working with you, you know, I'm not being distracted by all this other stuff. I want to deal with you. Or the guy who's like, twelve percent cost plus take it or leave it. Or seventeen percent cost plus take it and le take it or leave it, you know? Ian: Yeah, the the price percentage difference scales proportionally with the scale of the project. So whereas I'm a a simple little radon system, I'm not the whole house. So I could be forty percent more. Josh: Okay, yeah. Yeah. So besides restaurants, large scale construction is actually one of the lowest profit margin industries in the world. Like a high end commercial, like we're talking like there's guys who who'll do projects for four percent profit. But it's a billion dollar project or a hundred million dollar project, so it's four million dollars and then they have some overhead in there, you know. And so they're paying for their overhead and then they, you know. Like I've done some commercial projects for six percent. Ian: Wow. Cause everything in the business world will tell you that's too low of a margin. Josh: Correct, but it's it's scales, right? And so it's like, okay, well, yeah, four percent's too low of a margin on a thousand dollar bill. I'm not in the business of making forty bucks. But if I told you for a two year project you could make four million buc after paying for, you know, your overhead. I don't know about you, but I take that money. Yeah. Ian: the cash is it's necessary to do business. at times it feels dirty. Like I'll sometimes I'll send a bid and I'm like, gosh, this just feels so high. Yeah. But I know what's involved. Correct. And I know the quality at which we're gonna do it. And so I know that it's worth it. Yeah. you've gotta make money in order to provide the quality of product that you do. Josh: So when I went to that Alex Hormosy deal down in Vegas, I was I'd just gone through a really, really bad burnout. and I really didn't have any work. I was like not trying to solicit any work, anything like that. I had two custom homes that had lined up that just kind of carried me through that year. And then I but I was kind of panicking. I was like, I don't have anything, but I was so burned out, I just couldn't even function. A lot of personal stuff happened within like a three week period. And so it was just insane. But I met a guy so I was really thinking about just shutting it down and quitting and going to working for somebody. I was like, I don't know what I want to do. I think that, you know, I'm a I was self talk matters. I was like, I'm a I'm a failure. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Wine, whine, whine. Don't be a whiner. but I ran into a guy whose crazy small world. He had actually started a gym in Bozeman and then sold it and moved to Arizona. I don't remember this gentleman's name at all. But I was talking, I was whining like a little bitch to him. And he said, How long you been doing it? I said, Five, six years. Five or six years. And he said, You can't be dangerous at something until you're done for ten years. You need to just do it for ten years until you're actually dang and be actually dangerous at it, and then decide what you want to do. And that's that's why I said I want to be really dangerous at it. So that you're right. I know everything that's going in. Your number reflects, hey, this is an educated guest. This isn't some guy Who came out and started a radon company last year and is driving a truck that his dad bought him for a graduation present and he doesn't realize, this thing has two hundred thousand miles, it's gonna die sometime. Like, I have to actually be able to if I want to stay in business, you have to be able to buy a truck that can get you from your house to where you're working. And so, a lot of guys just have a high paying job and they don't own a business. And even then a lot of times it's not even a high paying job. It's just a job that pays the same as they could they but they you know, they they go fish on the middle of the day and Wednesdays. So Ian: Yeah, it gives you a little bit more autonomy. Josh: Of course. Me and my wife's biggest life philosophy, well, besides following Jesus, is pain and sh problems are a feature of the system, not a bug. And so, yeah, it's hard. You and it's supposed to be hard. If it's not hard, you're doing something wrong. Like legitimately, you're running away from things that are gonna kill your business. If your business is not if you're not struggling and striving and pushing through the business, well then you're doing you're actually your business is going to fail. Because Ian: Yeah, if you're not Josh: you're coasting. Ian: Mm-hmm. Yeah, if you're not fighting things, struggling with things, making mistakes, you're almost not doing what you're supposed to be doing. Josh: Yeah. Until you get to a certain point, I do understand that there's a certain point where you can say, you know what, I'm not gonna grow the business anymore. I am I'm gonna make my, you know, hopefully mm whatever, two hundred grand a year for my salary and then, you know, some profit on top of that. And I'm just gonna, you know, take some time and just spend it with my family, you know. I think that there's a place for that, but not in the first ten years. Not in the first ten years. Like if you're gonna yes, Ian: Yeah. Josh: yeah, you have to pay down your knowledge debt. Ian: Yeah, when I came out of my handyman business into Bozeman Radon, Jeff mentioned something that stuck with me. He's like, Yeah, duh, you're gonna struggle with that. You're a freshman. Josh: Yeah. Duh. Ian: Yeah. And and it's so frustrating graduating from something and then starting over. Yeah. So I can Josh: Let me ask you this in your handyman business, personal reflection, had you e even graduated from that? No. Ian: Not at all. Yeah. No, I was consistently running into things that I just didn't expect or wasn't prepared for. Yeah. And I didn't have the knowledge. Yes. And at some point it's do you quit and roll over and give up? Or yeah. Call Josh: Push or pivot. Ian: it whatever you want. Yeah. And I realized that I very much needed to pivot because my knowledge debt was so great that I would not have been as effective as I should have been. Josh: Yeah. Well and also paying down paying down your knowledge debt, doing it as quickly as possible is the number one goal, right? And so if let's say that between you and the success you want right now, there is a quantifiable like there's a set amount of mistakes that you have to make between where you're at now and where you want to be. The thing that throws us all for a loop is that we just don't know where they are. We don't know how many there are. You know, if I told but if I could tell you how many they are, you would go make those mistakes as quickly as you could because you would bring down your knowledge debt. And so something that was a big shift that helped me was there was a mentor I talking to who he said, Josh, like what if there's if what if there's sixty five mistakes between where you're at and where you need to be? Well, I'm just gonna go make the I'll make those sixty five mistakes tomorrow, you know. How f how fast Ian: Yeah. Josh: can I make Now, w maybe one caveat. Integrity does really matter. And so I have seen guys who go out and they make all those mistakes and then they go make all this money. But when they make a mistake, they say, Well, that's just part of the process. Fuck those people. I don't care. I recognize that I am maybe not making my mistakes as fast as I possibly could because when I do make a mistake, I always want to fix I will fix it no matter what. Even if it costs me all the project on that, all the profit on that profit on that project. but I still really am trying to bring down the decision making cycle because when I first started out. I'd make a mistake and I'd say, All right, I made a mistake. It's it was hard, but it's okay. I'm gonna take the next three, three to six months to reflect on that and then and then I'll make another mistake and try to learn again. Well, that's dumb, but that's almost all almost all the guys that I interact with do that. They say, I made a mistake, I'm gonna tone back. And no, the answer is, you made a mistake? Awesome, because you will not succeed until you make a set amount of mistakes. Now, I'm a little dumb. Maybe that's a million for me. I don't know. Maybe I'll never reach that success. But there's guys out there who I'm like, dude, like you're just like five mistakes away from massive amounts of success. And so bringing down that decision, making time is super important. Ian: Yeah, and it doesn't even have to be a mistake. It's a learning experience regardless. Josh: Yes. Yeah. Because with integrity, if you are committed to if you have integrity and you're committed to the project, there's a guy on YouTube, Roofing Insights. He's super wise. He's like some Russian guy, this Russian accent. It's hard to understand. He really only talks about roofing. But he said, he said, Everybody talks about quality. Everybody talks, I'm the best craftsman, I'm the best this, I'm the best that. He said, But if I followed you around all day, every day, it would not be a question of if you made a mistake. It would be a question of when. And so he said the judgment is who's the best at fixing their mistakes. That's what makes the best project managers. That's what makes the best roofers. That's what makes the best radar guys. How am I gonna fix the mistake that I've made? And so for me, I am not the best at what I do. I'm just really good at making mistakes. Or I'm really good at f making, I'm good at making mistakes, but I'm really, really good at fixing the mistakes. And so because there's a ton of guys who when they make a mistake, they don't know how to fix it because they're so convinced I'm the best at, you know, doing whatever I'm doing that when they make a mistake, they're like, Well, it's a problem with the material. It's it's not me. I how I'm so and so. I could not possibly have made this mistake. Where instead it's like, no, just f fix it. Ian: And fix it to a level of quality that it's no longer a mistake. Josh: Knowing your tolerances. It's right. So, you know, classic example, there's an eighth inch gap in framing in the middle of an interior two by four wall. I'm probably not gonna replace that stud. It's okay. But if there's an eighth inch gap in that corner trim right there, that bitch is getting torn out. And so it does really it matters and it really does matter knowing your tolerances and then you know, understanding that there are different tolerances for different aspects. So during framing, a wall is a quarter inch out of plum. I wish it wouldn't have happened. The juice isn't worth the squeeze. We're not gonna fix it. Because I know that it actually doesn't matter. It's an interior wall, like, you know, nobody's hanging a scientific piece of equipment on that wall that has to be perfectly plum. Do I wish it wouldn't have happened? Yeah. But with the trim, I'm calling my trim guy. I'm calling my trim contractor. I'm saying, hey, we have to replace this. Sorry. But I just set the standard and I say, You gotta fix it, you know? So and having good subs most of the time they just fix it themselves. But we all make mistakes and yeah. Ian: Well, that's so important up front is just setting the standard for quality because now the expectation is there. There's no, well, I didn't expect you to care about XYZ. And we talked about it at the beginning. Yeah. It needs to happen like this. Mm-hmm. Earlier you mentioned the state of Montana and the warranty process. Sure. When you hand over the keys, whether it's spec home or a custom home, how done are you actually? Josh: I'm still married to him for another year. And in fact People treat you with as much respect as you teach them to. During the build process, I'm so involved and I and I really am just trying to be as attentive as I can be that I don't want to let that go, but I've learned that it's set a bad precedence for me when it comes to warranty, to where I'll be I'm on the specs, I'll be honest, a lot of the people who buy the specs have a renter mentality. This light bulb burned out. I need you to come fix it. Well, I don't own that house. You own that house, and it's a dollar thirty-nine light bulb. I'm sorry it burned out. but I'm not gonna come replace it. But then they get angry because it's like, well, I w you know, I whatever their desire was while we were building, I did it. And so now I've like shot myself in the foot. So I'm kinda I'm rethinking how I handle all this. so with the warranty. and warranty just sucks. Everybody knows. Warranty, warranty sucks. But there's always warranty. Like I said, if I followed you around all day, every day, it's not a question if you make mistakes, it's question of when. I make mistakes on homes. I always fix them. but I do right now I'm in the middle of a struggle sesh with the warranty and figuring out how to properly handle it. and also like what is warranty and what isn't. It's kind of a subjective. answer, you know, like your trim piece over here on your island. If that's nailed on there, I go through, I check all of before I sell the house, you know, there's no wiggle room. And then it gets ripped off. And you have little kids and a dog, okay. I think you ripped it off and I think you're telling me that I installed it improperly, but I think you ripped it off. So like how I don't know, how do you guys handle warranty? Cause I'm struggling. Ian: It's a little different with us. Sure. Usually the failure point is the fan. Yeah. Or noise. Fair. Oftentimes I'll install a system. Yeah. sometimes it's a real estate transaction. The new buyer comes in a month later and they say this thing's way too loud. It's very situation dependent. Yeah. There's things that I can do to fix it. Sure. There's a lot of things that I can't do to fix it. Yeah. I'll relocate it if you want. But that's we installed it to code. Yeah. Two and and met met the specs. Josh: Yeah. Ian: So now I have to charge you for that. I can't just do that for free. Correct. I've got to feed my family and and the guys. I and and it's not just that we're paying five employees. They all have families too. Yep. And it it's challenging. Josh: Yeah. Unless it's a actual quality like preference is not a quality Ian: Yes. Josh: warranty item. Like just because it's not your preference doesn't mean that I'm gonna Yeah, you're right. I'm not gonna pay two guys five hours to come in here and re and rerun this whole thing so that you don't hear it at night. Yeah, man. That's hard. Ian: Yeah, is as far as like a warranty goes, if we make a mistake, we fix it same same thing. Yeah. If there's a a quality concern or you pay for a painted system and it's scratched, like yeah, we'll fix that. But when it comes to preference, that's a good distinction. Yeah. That doesn't count as warranty. Yeah. So I mean you'd briefly touched on it, but what are legitimate warranty issues versus just new home things? Well Josh: That's a great question because every home has it c it has its quirks. and so I think actually me and me and the owner of Infinity were just talking about this the other day. it is amazing to me the level of expectation that is different between a brand new build construction quality wise in that year of warranty, and a home that is a year old. So it's like that first homeowner's Like, you know, first year, you know, just got certificate of occupancy, that homeowner moves in versus they sell it a year later, that second homeowner, all those quirks right there, they're gonna say, This is a just an amazing house. Like it's so quiet. There's only there's, you know, like sometimes, you know, like a w the the thing that's hosed me the most is there I have this one house where there is a hot water pipe that is somehow on the inside of a wall. It's all strapped at top and bottom. It's leaning against the drywall. So sometimes when the far bathroom shower turns on, it'll knock twice. Well, this is a life ending consequence for this homeowner. Like she is adamant that the entire wall needs ripped out. And for me, I say that is just a home quirk that, you know, we're striving for perfection, but we will never attain it. I'm not gonna tear that wall. Issue. Ian: Well and it's not a quality. Josh: And it it's not a quality issue that. Water's carrying fine, but it's just like I mean it it's like I mean like barely anything. But you know, she says, I sleep in this room. My son goes and takes a shower over here at you know seven AM in the morning, it wakes me up. And I said, Well man, I'm really sorry to hear that. Sorry. What else do you want to talk about? You know, and so I don't know. The but also the other thing I do tell homeowners too is I say, you know, the example I use is w in warranty. You're the first person to ever live in this home. If there is a manufacturer defect or a defect, you will be the one to discover it. And odds are you'll discover it in the first two months. Like if that fiberglass shower pan just has a the fiberglass is too thin in one spot and it's from the manufacturer. Well, I'm not taking showers in your house before you move in, because that'd be gross. You're gonna be the first person to take a shower in that house. Or take a sh take a shower in that in that bathroom. You're gonna find it. I said, calm. That's that's without a doubt warranty. Any manufacturer defects, we're working out the bugs. Also every home just has some bugs, you know, like and also, you know, things wear in in the first year that'll never wear in again. You know, like if your door like, you know, if there's a little bit of settling or something like that and on a foundation, or my foundations do not settle, but if a wall settles a little bit or something and a door rubs, I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna fix that. You know, like your doors shouldn't rub. And so, but if your light bulb burns out or I'm sorry, there's a little knock in your wall, that's that's not warranty. And s the but I'm such a people pleaser that a lot of like the first couple houses, I was like, Yeah, absolutely. Let me let me tear that out. And so and I want to have integrity and everything, but there is also a point where if you had bought this house and it was six months old, you you would see that and you would never even think about it again. But the expectation is different. And it should be. Like you just bought a brand new home, but also what's unrealistic. And everybody has a different opinion of where the line from realistic to unrealistic is. And the homeowner warranty is it's kicking my butt, Ian, so Ian: It's definitely one of the more challenging aspects of especially real estate transactions. Which a a spec home new new home. Yeah. Well, I didn't expect it to look like that. Well now we've got an expectation management problem and not I did something wrong. Josh: Unspoken expectations are premeditated conflicts. It's like, I didn't think the pipe would be there. Well, you didn't tell me where you thought the pipe would be, so how was I supposed to know? Sorry. Ian: All right, so let's flip this a little bit. If I'm not building and I'm the person buying, whether it's new or or not, what maybe not advice, but what do you take away from say this conversation? Things to look out for, what should I be aware of? What are people consistently missing that they should pay more attention to? Josh: On a home that's already built and you're buying your second, third, fourth, tenth home one. Sure. I mean, it's probably the same as how old's the furnace? Has there been regular maintenance done on it? I always just, you know, scarred from helping all those people out in three forks. Where's the water going when it rains? Is it coming back towards the foundation? Is it going out? Over time that wall can buckle. You know, so water mitig water control and management super, super important on older homes, especially. and then But I mean, really a lot of times, I mean, mold, you know, guys know like mold is just like it's I every house has mold. I understand that. that's why like every home that you buy, there's a mold disclaimer. So it's it's required by the state of Montana that everybody signs a disclaimer stating if they have known of any mold that requires mitigation. but in that disclaimer it also says every home contains mold. And so if you if you buy a house and that in that home buyer doesn't know that there's mold and you find mold, you you can't go after again unless you can prove, this guy came out and he had somebody come out and take measurements and then he obscured that truth from me, c confiscated that truth from me. but I yeah, I mean, probably, yeah, mold and then just making sure I really am a believer in just the common sense approach to where, you know, all right. There's water. Like it rained out here. The water's draining down beside my foundation. That needs fixed. Has the roof been walked on a ton? you know, is it does it need replaced? yeah. Overall quality on the older a home gets, the quality is just gonna drop no matter what, 'cause they're working with a lesser building material. And so, Yeah, I don't really have an answer for you, I guess. Ian: No, that's reasonable. I think the the follow up with that is if you don't know what to look for and you're buying a home, what should you do? Who should you call? Who should you hire to Josh: I think that there are places here every builder has arguments with home inspectors. And so, and some of them are one hundred percent justified and some of them are builders are just trying to get out of being held to a standard. So I always, you know, I'm mo I'll be honest, ninety nine percent of anything that's brought up in a home inspection report, I fix. but home inspectors, the motivation for me is I think Working you obviously to answer your question, you wanna call a home inspector, you wanna call reputable home inspector. but also the personality does really, really matter. 'Cause I've had a ton of building inspectors. So if you hire a building inspector and he comes in and he finds nothing wrong with the home, it's not a perfect home. He's just a shit building inspector. But if it is a actual really good home, well then he's gonna take things and he's it this is where the maturity of that building inspector comes in. He's The thing that I've ran into is that he'll take something that is minor and blow it up as if it's major so that he can kind of like go to home and buyer and be like, look, other home inspectors would have missed that miss this, but I got it. Here's the example, personal example. Build a home in Three Forks. Every builder has a home where they're like, that was the perfect home. This was my perfect home. Like everything just clicked. I did it in four months, framing it myself. I mean, it was just perfect. Everything, like the quality, everything was just really, really good. This home inspector came in. You know him. We all know him. this home inspector came in and I had done this nice wooden deck out front on the front porch of the house. And he wrote up this report. He said, The builder used nails to fasten the deck boards to the joists. It is too and he was very, very demeaning. He wrote a statement where he said, the builder used nails, it is too late now post construction. But the builder should s write and sign a statement acknowledging that this was an improper use of building material and that he should not be doing this going forward. He took that and he blew it up, and the homeowners were almost gonna back out of the home. He found that. He the like literally almost everything I was home inspection report besides like some blue tape stuff was that. And then there was a chunk missing out of the island countertop that I just completely missed. There's a super, like a lot of different stone. And so I was like 100% I'm happy to fix that. I think it cost me 200 bucks. So I was like, done. But then he blew up this deck and he's like, the deck's gonna fall apart within the next two years. I mean, it was just like it was like a three paragraph deal. That was super demeaning to me. But here's the kicker, and dirt had blown in over the screw heads. I did not use nails. I used screws. And so the homeowners are blowing up. They're like, my gosh, like the deck's gonna fall apart. You need to credit us $20,000 for this deck. And I said, meet me out there. And I went out there, I got down on my hands and knees and I went blue, perfect T25 head, perfectly set. And so because he You know, you he inspected the outside last. Reading his report, he inspected the outside last because he wasn't really finding much. And whatever. I d I don't want to assign intent, but this is my read. Because he wasn't finding much on the inside, when he got outside, he said, Gotcha, you son of a bitch. Here's something that I can really hold you against. And so he almost blew the deal up because of he said, well, there's nails instead of screws. So w whoever you get with a home inspector, you want to talk to somebody who, you know, I There's a couple guys in town who I I really love because when it's a legitimate issue, they say, Hey, this really does need to be addressed. And then here's your recommendation on this other stuff. And so and they I've learned that the home inspector will set the tone for the negotiations between the buyer and the seller with that home inspection and when he does his home walkthrough. So we're all professionals. Anything that's brought up to me that I want that is a legitimate issue that I've missed, I want to fix. But there's other things that have been brought up to where I'm like, this is just a you know a preference item. And but that home inspectory gets in the ears of these home buyers and he says, If he's not willing to completely redo this whole wall because there's a little nick in it, he's a piece of shit. He's trying to fuck you over. That answer your question? Ian: Yes. It's so personality based 'cause everybody interprets the law or the code differently. Josh: I actually it's not that anything that's brought up to me for a code issue, I'm ha I address without like I said, ninety nine percent of even the blue tape stuff, I address because I'm like, Yeah, this is your first home. I want it to be as close to perfection as I can. It's more so the mindset of the home inspector in my experience is what throws more of a wrench. It's almost like they in their mind, some of them will say, If I don't cause some conflict here, I didn't do my job. No, your job is to give a fair and accurate report of the home holding the I want you to hold me to a high standard. Please, I I'm not looking to get out of anything, but hold me to a high standard and don't assume ill intent. So the thing that I'll tell all my clients this when I start a project, I say never assign ill intent to something that can be described by incompetence. So if I make a mistake, don't come in here and say Josh is trying to fuck me over, he's trying to steal a million dollars from me. Say, It's Josh. He's a little stupid. He probably made a mistake. And so but that intent and this is every builder's tirade because against home inspectors, sometimes that intent is every home inspector comes in and says, You're trying to fuck my client over, and my job is to not let that happen and I'll never let that happen. I'm not saying that there aren't builders out there. There's a bad egg. There's bad radon guys. There's bad builders. and I think you're right. Like there's a bunch of builders, since there's not much standardization in Montana, who don't want to do anything above the bare, bare, bare minimum. I want to do above the minimum. I want to do the bet like I said, I want to install this product to the highest quality that this product can be installed to. but don't assume ill intent. And I'd say probably forty percent of home inspectors assume ill intent, probably because they have a bad experience with a home builder, but they haven't dealt with me. I don't have ill intent. I want to fix this problem and I want to be solution oriented. Don't go in there and just try to throw a wrench into the into the negotiations just because you can. And it's a superpower. Like that is home inspector's superpower. They can tank a deal just based off of their tone and how they do the walkthrough with the buyer. Ian: Yeah, I like that saying, never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. Yes. or just I'm worried about a thousand and one things. I'm gonna miss something. Yes. But it's not intentional. No. I'm not trying to screw you over. Correct. I deal with it all the time. No, I just flat missed. Josh: Yeah, yeah. I'm a little dumb. Like sorry, you know? Yeah. But that's integrity. I'm gonna fix it. Ian: Okay. So if my brother calls me tomorrow and says, I'm gonna buy a house, I'm looking at a new spec home, where should he pay more attention? Whether you have a home inspector or not. Josh: Yeah. I mean I w one of our big sayings is if you don't do the small things well, you aren't gonna do the g the big things well. So, you know, and that's a biblical principle. If you can't be trusted with the small things, you're not gonna be trusted with the big things. You do anything is how you do most. Yeah, a hundred percent. so walking in, you want to look around, you know, just and really a lot of times I'm a terrible person to answer this because I'm a big guy on feel. I can feel if a house is built well or not, but that's also from experience. So you know, go up in the attic, look, go down crawl space. Is it excessively dirty? Are are water lines hanging super, super low? You know, like if there's just You know, and obviously there will be a difference between an entry level spec and a high end custom home in my expectation of my subs. You know, like if I'm like, you know, on my water line, I'm like, I want that son of a gun straight if it's a million dollar home. But on a spec, I'm okay if you go from one side of the joist to the other without ninety degree in it, you know, like but make it look tight, make sure it looks to code. We want it to be presentable. you know, I check the number one thing is just check water penetrations. You know, so get on the roof, go around the siding, is all the caulking good on a new construction. yeah. Look at look at where the trim touches the ground. are the cabinets sitting on it? It it is just it's hard. Skill. It all yeah, I shouldn't even set anything in. I mean, it comes down to skill. So if your brother's like, I don't want to pay for a home inspection, I would tell him to pay for a home inspection. Say, Ian: Yeah. Josh: like, hey, all right, no beer this month, pay for that home inspection. Ian: saving money up front can cost you more in the long run. Correct. Josh: Yeah. Well and also like home inspectors, like even I I I encourage even on a custom where there's like no requirement for home inspection, they own it the whole time. I do encourage home inspections because there's things that you in every house you could walk through a thousand times and you could find something wrong with it. Every time for a thousand times if you're looking. but there's things that like I'm just gonna miss. You know, just due to being a little dumb, like You know, that that home inspector will catch. And so it's always I always like getting a fresh set of eyes on any home I build just because, you know, I maybe I noticed it once and then I forgot about it and I and in my mind is like, yeah, I fixed it and then I just forgot to check it again, you know? Like then you wanna know what here's something for you, radon guys. Do you know what the number one roofing item is? Roof boots. The radon boot, roof boot is inverted. Yep. That's the number one. And so I get up there with a little screwdriver and I have to pry it back up and so provide Have you nice. Ian: Doing a bigger hole now. Do a four inch hole instead of three and a half. And then you can reach it from the inside. Yeah. Josh: I'm fine with whatever, but I'm just saying, you know, it's like I'm gonna miss that. I'm gonna miss that, you know? or I'm gonna forget about it on some homes. So getting the home inspector up there to to take a look is always a good thing. So Ian: that fresh eyes comment is good because you've been staring at the same wall for three months, walking by it every day. Yeah. you're gonna get blind to things. Josh: Well and also like last year I did twenty two projects. not gonna catch everything. Right. Right? Like I just can't, you know. And so, I like it when people like I said, the how it's brought up does really matter. But also anything that's brought up, I'm like, a hundred percent, let's fix that, son of a gun, you know? Like I'd love to fix it. So Ian: for somebody building or buying a home, what is the biggest takeaway or or the biggest thing that you would want them to know? Josh: Well, so if you're building a home, you're married to somebody for two and a half to three years. and forever if they do a bad job because you're gonna be called tied up in lawsuits. the thing I do tell all my clients though that I would encourage everybody is always pay the price now that you'd willingly pay later. So those homes in three forks that are in a you know, there's there's some there's talk of like class action lawsuit, but there's already like, you know, four or five homeowners going together and suing builders. But each one of those builders and each one of those homeowners both wish that they would have each paid another thirty thousand dollars. The builder says, I would he's you know, it's let's say it's sixty so sixty thousand dollars to install and do, you know, like a truly like bulletproof house out there with, you know, micropiles, proper water, engineering, all that fun stuff. And that's a big price tag. So I understand why some builders are like, well, you know, I'm only making eighty five thousand bucks, you know. But And the market, but the market is what it is. that homeowner, that builder wishes he would have paid another thirty thousand dollars and made thirty thousand less dollars, and that homeowner wishes they would have paid another thirty thousand dollars. So make up that differential to not have a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar fix right now and to go through all the stress of trying to sue your builder. So pay the price now that you'd always willingly pay later. And then also, you know, relationships are everything. So like I said, the first time that a subcontractor calls me and it comes up, their name comes up on my phone and I look at it and I say, I just get like this feeling of existential dread, I refuse I will not work with them on another project. Because our why I'm not a masochist. I don't want to have stress that's unneeded. Like I wanna always be growing, I wanna always be pushing, but I want to be self inflicted, not inflicted on me by somebody else. And so you know, if you're looking for a custom home builder, I would say, you know, definitely reach out to three or four people and then ask for references. You know, say like, you know, because there's like I said, everybody in this town's a builder. And then when you push, they're like, Well, I I framed a custom home one time. You are not a builder. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be a builder. I think that there are lots of guys who can go move into that role, but you aren't. You are not a builder. You need to pay down your knowledge debt. And so, you know, and this is not a brag, but I mean I should build a better home because I've built, you know, thirty eight homes than some guy out there who has done two. So ask for references, get multiple quotes, and then who and then I would rather than pricing, you know, there's obviously within pricing, but you know, pay the price now, you'd willingly pay later. If the guy who you're like, man, this guy's just super invested in my project, he has a great, you know, you know, scope of work behind him. Whenever I call him, he's he's invested in who I am as a person in my project. He understands details the other guys are missing. if he's two percent more. On a million dollar home that's twenty thousand dollars. Darn. And yeah, who cares, right? I mean, like, I'm not saying you don't. And you can ask him, hey, can you come down twenty? And he's gonna say no. I I would say no. But who pay the price now you'd willingly pay later? That guy who doesn't return voicemails, doesn't seem to know what an email is, doesn't return text, is and is fourteen percent versus somebody who's seventeen percent. That's an easy delta to make up. I'm telling you, I promise you, I promise you, you will pay that price. You go go with the cheap guy once and then you'll never go with him again. So the trust yeah. And also, but honestly, I mean we're talking twenty thousand dollars, like he's gonna save you that, honestly, like through the proficiency of it. Yeah. Not making the mistakes. Exactly. Ian: Yeah. Josh: Which also, I'm not a fan of cost plus contracts. So that was a bad example because I'm actually not doing any cost plus contracts right now. So but I'm still trying to figure out what exactly my contracts are, but I think that fixed price or like right now I'm doing a G P contract, so gross maximum pricing. because I don't know, cost plus, I don't know. I just don't like it. I don't like it because of motivation. It it's like you can have all the integrity in the world, but fundamentally at the end of the day, if you spend two million dollars or about ten percent cost plus, I make more money than if you spend a million. And so my motivation is not always to be in your best interest. My motivation is, you know, yeah, of course I want you to go buy that million dollar window package because I want my ten percent markup on that, you know. So But anyway, yeah. So the relationship really matters. the number one thing is I would say like make sure that they have a good scope of work. Can they do this? One thing that I've run into is don't be afraid to ask. Like people I I other subs I've done I do this with subs where I'm like, well, hey, you know, what have you done? And they give me like a really roundabout answer, and it's awkward. And I don't want to be like, well, actually, you know, could you give me like a list of your last five projects? Because and you know, they'll I can kinda tell they're bluffing, you know. Or not that they're bluffing, they just don't give me exact answers. And so don't be afraid to ask. Say, could I call the last person you build a home for? If the answer is no, say, what about the one before that? Because you know, there's always relationships, not everybody's gonna be perfect. Give them the benefit of a doubt. Sometimes there's crazy people on both sides. Yep. but if he can't give if he's like, No, you can't call them, you don't. When somebody shows you who they are, don't be surprised when they prove it. Like if the last two custom homes this guy built, they don't he can't even call and ask them for a reference. What are you doing, dude? Get the hell out of there. You need to, you know, not every no project's perfect. Not all projects are perfect. but like all my you know, if I don't have at least a couple clients out of 38 homes who would be willing to give me a recommendation, I should quit. I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing. Ian: Well it's it's no different than hiring hiring an employee. You're gonna call a reference. It cost me money to do this. Why not save myself some h Josh: But it's all awkward, right? Like you don't like asking, like, hey we wanna we wanna believe people. So when somebody says, I'm the best at what I do, or I'm really good at I'm I'm proficient at what I do, you wanna believe them. And it's almost like when you call the reference, you're like trying to find out if they're lying. And so I hate awkward conversations. Everybody hates conversate awkward conversations, but if you don't call and find out that the guy's lying, you know, like actually here's a crazy example. There's a guy in town here. One the biggest contractors in town, in in a in not in not general contractor, but like in a trade. he hired a guy who had references, like listed out like his last three places of work, said, Here's a reference letter from each of them, all this stuff went down there. The guy stole at the end of it $180,000 from him through a made up project that he bid and got in Court d'Alene, made up this project, got it, and then but because the and he Come to find out he had written the reference letters for each of those three businesses himself. The th he'd done this, he'd stolen money from each of those three businesses before him. But he was just like, nobody calls. Nobody calls these references. And so he just listed them. And so the guy who hired him didn't call the references. If he had just called the references, he would have found out that the guy was lying. But because the recommendation letter was so glowing, he's like, I I just believe it. Never trust what everyone else tells you. You need to trust, but verify. Like be like, I believe that you're a good guy, Ian, but I'm gonna verify and I'm not gonna let you make me feel bad. If somebody tries to make you feel bad for verifying, like, well, you don't need to talk to them. Actually, no, that means I need to talk to them even more. And so I tell you the same thing with a custom home builder. Ian: What's an awkward conversation worth to you? Is it worth twenty grand? Would you rather have an awkward conversation than spend twenty grand? Josh: Well, it's more than twenty grand because if you hire a real shader contractor on on your million plus dollar home, well you're looking at incredibly Ian: twenty three. Josh: stressed. Also, mind weight has a price. It's like if you wake up every day on your new build and you're in constant conflict with your contractor. What's that worth? Like, you know, like I mean, just the weight of all that. Like you carry it, you're a mean person to your wife now, you're mean to your kids, you know, you're just grouchy all the time. No, I'm not grouchy. I don't get grouchy. I don't want you to be grouchy with me. Like I want to be able to call any of my clients at any time and just shoot this shit. Now I may not do that, but if there's conflict, you you know you can't do that. And so I say, I I just don't want that conflict. Now, some people seem to like it. There's some guys out here who seem to like it. Thrive on it. I they thrive on it. Funny story. When I first started, I built my first spec when I was 21. These homeowners, I actually have a review on my Google page where they're like the most personable home builder I've ever met. And when I started, they were like, Josh, why are you so nice and personable? All these other home builders are grouchy. Like, and naive 21 year old Josh said, Well, I guess I don't know. I guess I'm just a good person, I guess. And now, now I'm like, have you met you people? You people are the worst. Like you're lucky I'm not snarling right now. But keeping a positive attitude throughout all of it. because yeah, there's no Yeah, whatever. Shit happens. If you ever have a problem, don't worry. Because if you have a problem and there's a solution to the problem, don't worry, you have a solution. And if you have a problem and there's no solution, don't fucking worry because there's nothing you can do to fix it. And so there's no reason to ever worry about it and get super stressed. It's And obviously I say that tongue in cheek, there's always a solution. And so I don't worry because there's always a solution. Ian: Well it's easier said than done, but Josh: yeah, yeah, I say that, but you ask my wife and there's a lot of worry. yeah. But I never I never let the client see that. I say Here's what I'm gonna do to fix it. You know, biggest book that's influenced me, or the podcast that's influenced me more than anything else, is Jocko Willings. extreme ownership, that whole concept of extreme ownership and dichotomy of leadership. Take extreme ownership of everything. Here's what I did. Here's what here's what I could have done. Here's what I was doing that allowed this to happen. Here's what I could have done to prevent it, and here's what I'm going to do to ensure it never happens again. In every single Time there's a conflict in my life, I just run through that framework and I say, What happened? I remove the emotion. It's not emotion. Okay, maybe I had good intentions when I did that. I it was a mistake still. Intention, intention matters some. I'm not saying I'd rather somebody accidentally screw me over than intentionally. But fundamentally, you just remove your emotions and say, Did I make a mistake? Yes or no? If I did. what were the contributing factors to that, have a little self reflection, say, you know what? Ian ran this pipe directly where the homeowner wanted did not want it to go. I knew that. I didn't actually properly communicate that to Ian. I gotta I gotta own that. I'm gonna pay for that out of pocket because the homeowner told me that, Ian. I failed. I didn't communicate that to you. We need to change this location. Ian: That's an example, right? That didn't actually happen. Josh: yeah, no, no, no, no, no. No, the actual example is I told you exactly no I'm kidding. No. But and then saying but the the thing that is really important too and what builds trust in a relationship in my limited experience, saying, Hey, this is what I did. This is kind of why it happened, but here's what I'm gonna do to make sure it never happens again. And that's super, super important, like saying this is what I'm implementing to make sure this never happens again and actual like list out things like, you know, I'm going to whatever. I set up a reminder on my phone anytime that I have a conversation with a sub, you know, like so for me, I was having a lot of conversations with homeowners and I wasn't writing stuff down. Well, you know, they would say that they told me something and then it's a he said she said. Well now every time that I have a meeting with a client, whether it's over Zoom, I have a note sheet up and I just say eight sixteen twenty twenty six. Talked about boom boom boom boom. You know, it doesn't have to be incredibly in depth, but I write down everything. Whenever I have a phone conversation with anybody, I say, Hey, listen, this was a great conversation. I love talking to you. If you don't send me a text saying what we talked about, this conversation never happened because I'm gonna forget it. And so, you know, that's me saying so. I made a couple of mistakes. I said, man, I'm sorry. You did tell me that. I did not write it down. So when I so I forgot to convey that to a subcontractor. From here on out in all our meetings, this is where I'm going to implement to make sure that this doesn't happen anymore. I'm going to send you a copy of our notes meeting so you can review and approve it. You can add something if I miss it. So like all my clients, they have a live link. It's a one drive link to all of our meeting notes. They can go on there and you know it keeps track of who's recording what so they can't go back and retroactively say I said this. but I'll send them a one drive link after the meeting and I'll say, Here's what we talked about. Let us know. if if there's something that I missed or there's something that I'm misrepresenting so that we can change it. Ian: I like that. Josh: Extreme ownership. Take ownership of everything you do to the extreme. Now, dichotomy of leadership, I l I I eat this stuff up. I love like like extreme ownership, dichotomy of leadership. At some point, I do also have to allow the room for others to take accountability for their actions and as a leader call them to take accountability for their actions. So it's like, Ian, I wrote on the wall, do not run radon fan here. You ran this radon fan here. Hey man, I'm gonna need you to come back and I'm gonna need you to fix it. I'm sorry that I, you know, I hey, I should have double checked with you. I should have followed up, made sure you were probably go busy going. I mentioned it in passing, and then I wrote it on the wall. Like there's always room to take extreme ownership, but also at the end of the day, I told you, I wrote it down on the wall, I need you to come back and fix it. And then something that I really struggled with, and by and I'm getting better, is actually holding people accountable to what they need to do. Because if, you know, not everyone has integrity. Sometimes as a general contractor, I have to hold them to an integrity level where it's like, no, you're gonna cut that pipe out and you're gonna pouch the wall. And you just have to. Sorry, man, like you made that mistake. I have to hold you to that level because otherwise it's gonna come out of my pocket and I'm giving a less quality product to my client. So I don't know if that makes sense. Ian: It it makes perfect sense. it's so easy to just wanna be trusting and almost like that people pleaser aspect. Yeah. I I think body cam footage is a good example of this. Sure. They'll pull somebody out of the car and they're like, Do you have anything on you? And no. Well I'm gonna check anyways. Yeah. It it's yep. It's a little different in that situation, but at the end of the day if you're given the Josh: Trust but verify. Trust but verify. Ian: Have you built a home for yourself yet and your family? W how'd that turn out? You happy with Josh: It's the worst house I've ever built. Just Ian: Why is that? Josh: because I it's like a mechanic. Never, never buy a mechanic's car because they're gonna be like, it's good enough. So I did. So I say I've never been sued for any soil conditions. I have one house that moved from soil conditions, and it's my personal house. I paid 36,000 bucks for Helical Peers, did a geotech report, all that stuff, and my house still moved. So Whatever. I'm fixing it. Currently right now I'm looking at buying a micropile machine off a couple of auctions, going out there and doing the micropiles myself. Just for shits and giggles for to learn but Ian: Well and it's an investment in correct in the company going forward. Josh: Yep. Yeah. And I say I'm looking at buying it. I have already fixed the problem and so my house is good now. but I'm just a fan of since it's my personal house, going a little bit above and beyond. So I have heel computers and then do micropiles as well. So like right now I could sell the house as is. and it would be it would pass all inspections, it would be more than acceptable. I'd have a s a structural engineer signed off, but I just Whatever. Barring acts of God. And also there's a hole in the market. Nobody in Montana right now has a micropilot machine who's willing to work on homes out there. And so I'm whatever. Thinking about maybe doing that. Ian: What does that process look like? Josh: it's terrible. You have to dig down to the bottom of the footing six feet out. You have to tear off all exterior slab on grades. And you have to essentially take a pneumatic hammer and drive a steel pipe 68 feet down in the ground, auger it out, drive a steel pipe down there, fill it with concrete, and then put a then put your foundation on it. Ian: I didn't realize it was that far down. Josh: So the I am not a structural engineer, so this is pure opinion. Bentonite clay ran a test on my soil. My soil on my personal house has a lifting capacity of 10,000 psi pounds per square inch. For reference, the armory hotel in downtown Bozeman bears down eight thousand psi. So soil on my property could shift the armory hotel. but that clay layer it can be twenty to sixty foot deep. And so you either have to do a core sample at every house or at ever at every micropile or helical peer location, or just go below where you know the the deepest clay is. So Ian: Interesting. Josh: Yeah. Anyway. It's a I nerd out about that stuff too, but it's Ian: I do too. Josh: it's it's a nightmare. Ian: I would like to pick your brain on that at some point. Josh: Sure. you looking at buying out there? No. Ian: okay. No. No, definitely not, but Josh: You can. You can get a screaming deal on some houses out there that don't require a ton of work to fix them. So I actually think that like right now in the valley, going and buying a home that has some foundation issues out in three forks and then fixing it, doing it yourself, is probably actually one of the best ways to build equity because there's no that's the only fix and flip. And it's, you know, it's not a true fix and flip to where you could go in like these flippers all over and do it in sixty, eighty days. Turn around and sell it for forty thousand dollars more. And it's more of a you get it for discount, you build in a ton of sweat equity, and then you know you can sell. But but anyway, so I did build my first home. I built it in twenty twenty two. and Ian: Yeah. Is what it is. Josh: I mean, I s it's a thirty two hundred square foot monstrosity that I just like weigh, you know, whatever. It sits on a hill, there I have huge windows. So it's I love it. My wife loves it. but there's just some bad connotations because of and also I did frame it myself in like five weeks. And so or I had a buddy come and help me for like two of and so there's maybe a wall or two in there that could be s straighter. But because it's my house, I was like, it's good. Ian: I'll live. Josh: Yeah, correct. Yeah. Ian: And now it you notice it every time you walk by it. No Josh: I don't Okay. No, I do actually. I do. I definitely do, so Ian: That's about all I got. You got anything else you want the people to know? Josh: No. Perfect. I think super easy. So Yeah, Ian: This is fun. Thank you. Josh: man. No, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.