Latest / Okay, Hear Me Out. / Ask Us Anything- Part 1
Transcript
- Rise Therapeutic Services: Welcome to Okay Hear Me Up, where we'd rather torch the status quo than tiptoe around it and bring you the conversations your brain didn't know it needed, but definitely can't escape. We're your hosts, Ashley and Melissa. And if you've ever wondered what happens when two women with zero fucks and a million thoughts get together to talk about mental health and all the ways the world could use a serious reboot, you're about to find out. So buckle up, because we're not here to color inside the lines, we're here to redraw them, question everything, and maybe light a match or two. So let's get started. Listening to this podcast, interacting with us on social media or submitting questions does not establish a client therapist relationship between you and the host. That's a fancy way of saying we aren't your therapist just because you listen to this podcast. Please go get yourself one. Always seek the advice of your physician, therapist, or Or other qualified health professional with any questions you may have regarding a medical or mental health condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it simply because of something you've heard on this podcast. If you think you may have a medical or mental health emergency, call your doctor or go to the nearest hospital, or call 911 immediately. If you are experiencing suicidal crisis or severe emotional distress, please call or text 998 to reach the suicidal or crisis lifeline in the US or Canada. Or contact your local emergency services. Reliance on any information provided by OK Hear Me Out, us, the hosts, or any guest is solely at your own risk. Any case studies, listener questions, or examples discussed are fictionalized or heavily anonymized to protect confidentiality. speaker-0: Now we are recording. Okay. speaker-1: Hello, hello. speaker-0: Welcome back to Okay Hear Me Out. Here we go. speaker-1: Today we're gonna do a fun one. This is an Ask Us Anything Day. It's speaker-0: This is a fun one. This is a questionable one. speaker-1: an Ask Us Anything Day which people have sent us questions and we're gonna answer them. speaker-0: To the best of our abilities. So Yeah. Take speaker-1: Mm-hmm. That might speaker-0: a bit. It might take some finagling. Yeah. There might be some pauses. There might be some like ooh backpedaling. But the goal is for it to be fun. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And yeah. Okay. speaker-1: All right. Question speaker-0: Stop at the start at the top. speaker-1: Yeah, we're gonna start. But I'm gonna make you do the second one because I haven't read it yet. speaker-0: You did. I'm not gonna actually that's gonna be its own thing. okay. Because we're gonna break down so yes. speaker-1: Book. So speaker-0: Yes. We're gonna break down like the importance of like looking at authors, like who's doing the writing and all that kind speaker-1: Well then in that case we won't do that one. Okay. Do you feel ex well, okay. Question number one. Do you feel you experience secondary trauma from helping others? Yes. Hundreds But I've also been in the helping field for a lot longer. I was a dispatcher before this, so like Correct. I have plenty of trauma from that. But I think For me it shows up different. I don't think it shows up in like like the anxiety depression type deal, I think for me it shows up as like Like cynicism? speaker-0: Yes. Like you view the world differently. speaker-1: Yes, I view the world siv significantly differently. I don't obviously don't hit the like a PTSD criteria in the sense of like the world is bad or whatever. But I definitely significantly view the world differently because of my previous job as being a nine one one dispatcher and then this one. Like I think being a nine one one dispatcher significantly changed my view on Like victimhood. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And like how people like to portray themselves as helpless, but they continuously can put themselves in situations that they could avoid if they just chose to do something different. Yes. And then I think becoming a therapist and ooh, sorry everybody, really made me not want to be a parent. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Because I've seen and this is over my whole experience, not just now in private practice, but my whole experience as a therapist. has r made me significantly shift my mindset on like how harmful shitty parents are. Huh? And like speaker-0: It's like the root of all things. speaker-1: Yeah. And so like I see a lot of teenagers and young adults and I view that as like those are my kids and I'm going to fix them instead of just adding another child to the world. Not because I don't think I would be a bad parent. I actually think I would be a great parent. But I know that because I have to put so much effort into helping other parents parent their kids that I know I wouldn't have the capacity to go home to my own kid and show up as a good parent. Yes. Like I would need to put so much on my partner that I wouldn't feel comfortable with that because then at that point why I have kids. Like if I can't show up a hundred percent, what's the point of having it? Mhm. So speaker-0: Yeah, I would agree that like there is a level of this field really does add a layer to the cynicism of people. Right. Like the Yeah, that like shittiness of people. Yeah. and not necessarily because of our clients, but because of what our clients experience. Yeah. I don't think that I would say I experience kind of that secondary trauma response. I think because of my lived experience with trauma, I'm able to hold the trauma better and it doesn't impact me nearly as much. speaker-1: I don't know, I feel like you take home some of your clients' stuff a little bit more. I don't speaker-0: feel like I carry it physic in that visceral way. Like I want to fix it for them. speaker-1: That I I would say you do it more in that way where you spend a lot of time outside of sessions being like, can I how can I do this or can I send them this or how can I do this? Like speaker-0: And it's more resource-based. Yes. Right? Like I would agree with I want to provide more resources speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: for people. And that's where I get caught up. Is like I can take things home in a way that's like I want to find more resources. I want to create more resources. I want like I want to help in that way and I want to help fix things in that way for people. But I wouldn't fall into that trauma. speaker-1: No. speaker-0: response. Like I don't go into fight or flight. Like it doesn't like cause like I can like speaker-1: That's severe anxiety, depression, all that stuff. It's more so just the speaker-0: And I I do know that for some people, like it absolutely can show up that way. Right. Like I know especially for students who are first stepping into this field listening to some of the heaviest stories, they're like, sh speaker-1: Everything for everybody. It's like that's not how that works. speaker-0: Especially when students leave and they're like big emotions. Yeah. And I'm like, Yeah, you're gonna have to learn to stuff that shit down. speaker-1: Or just stop taking it on. Like it's not your fucking shit to take on. speaker-0: No. speaker-1: And I think that's probably the hardest part about being a therapist is learning how to differentiate other people's shit and not take it on without feeling like a dickhead. Like I think that was one thing that you had to learn from me a little bit was that like you used to when we first started this business, you were like you don't go home and like think I'm like, No, I don't fucking think about my clients at all when I speaker-0: Which is funny because I still I still I even just saw a reel today that was talking about like it was the therapist that had put together a reel that was like, Do you ever think about me? It was like a client's perspective when you go home or whatever. And then it was like the client or was the different versions of a therapist that was like, like thinking about the client of like, I wonder if they got that job or I wonder if blah blah blah And I was like, Ashley doesn't do that. speaker-1: I do that like just the other day. I know I have two clients that are looking for jobs, and I w had a client in session with me. We were talking about jobs and like looking for them and like what they qualify for, what they don't, and like how to like extend your like, no, you could qualify for this. Like don't undersell yourself or whatever. And like I came across three or four that two of my clients were I was like, this would totally fit for them. So like I created separate emails for them, I was like, hey, I saw these, like these might be like good for you, or they might fit for you. But like stuff like that, like, I wonder if like I wonder how that job that I'll I'll do. But it's not like my god, I wonder if they're having a panic attack, I wonder if they're okay. speaker-0: No, I don't. speaker-1: I don't do that I don't do. Like no. At the end of the day I'm like, no, whatever they're and then again, I think it goes back to I still sometimes struggle with feeling like a dickhead because I'm not like worried about my clients, but at the end of the day, I'm like, no, like it's not my job to worry about them outside of session. My job is to do my job with them. And how they move with in the w in the world, I have no control over. speaker-0: Correct. And I think that kind of leads in, ironically, to the next question, which is like what's the toughest pill you had to swallow and our hardest lesson you had to learn? And I this is a vague question because it doesn't necessarily say like within your career or in life. And honestly, I can attach that exact theory to both in career and in life, which is like not carrying everybody else's shit. Yep. Because even within my job, right, like I think in the beginning I would go home and think about like their mental health and like their well being and like hoping that they're okay and had to learn to pull back and be like their their well being as a whole, w whether they're having panic attacks or all those things, right? Or they're feeling sad, et cetera. I can't hold all that or I can't show up for them as a therapist the next time. Like there's a limit there. But I also can apply that to my personal life, which is like my family of origin. I can't carry all that. That has been probably one of the biggest pills to swallow is that like it's not my job to carry my parents' emotions, my mother's emotions, right? Like I had to separate myself very rigidly in order to learn that lesson so that I could thrive in life. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: That has been probably one of the hardest things for me both professionally and personally is like Putting those rocks down and saying those aren't mine to carry. speaker-1: I the toughest thing that you and I also have had to swallow well for me I would say probably around suicide, especially with being a nine one one dispatcher and like all those things. Like I experience that all the time. But like this idea of like at the end of the day, like speaker-0: Specify what you mean. You experience that all the time. Give more speaker-1: Like talking to people who have suicidiation or ca are calling and saying they're gonna kill themselves, like following through with it, like stuff like that. I think that was one thing I had to learn way before I became a therapist was that like normalizing having conversations about suicidality and wanting to die is actually one of the healthier things to do and just making it normal while also acknowledging that if someone really wants to die, there's really nothing I can do about it. speaker-0: Correct. speaker-1: Like I can provide as much support and as many resources as possible. But at the end of the day, if someone doesn't want to be here anymore, there's absolutely nothing that I can do about that. And that is kind of a hard one to sit with because at some level, like if I've never had a client complete suicide before, but I have had it happen at an old job that I worked at. And How do you not take that personal as a therapist of like I failed that client, you know what mean? So I think that one I've never had it happen, like I said. So luckily I've never had to experience that piece. speaker-0: Which is so funny because I don't know This is gonna this is such a unique dynamic because, you know, obviously we tell our clients not to listen to the podcast, but we can't control what they do. So like everybody take this with a grain of salt. But like I don't know that I would view that as being a failure as a therapist. I'd be like, Cool, you made your decision. Like obviously I'm going to do what I can as a therapist and provide you resources and show you that like there are people that care and like do what I can, but like I don't view it as a a therapist failure. Unless you speaker-1: I mean like societally it's viewed as a therapist failure. Like you think about any time someone from an any speaker-0: External view, yes. speaker-1: time someone completes suicide, right? The first thing they do is, well, did the therapist know? Did they know they were a danger to themselves? True. Subpoena their records. Let's go through it. And it's like, well, you do realize that just because someone has suicidal thoughts doesn't actually make them necessarily a danger to themselves. Correct. Passive suicidality is actually very fucking normal. And not only that. I go back to is someone really wants to kill themselves, they're not gonna fucking tell people. Yep. They're just gonna go do it. Because the people who actually want to complete suicide are the ones who don't want to be interrupted. speaker-0: Yes. The ones who have actually made the decision are not going to be like, Hey, I've made that decision, come talk me out of it. speaker-1: do it. Yeah. And I think that's what's really hard is because that's why a lot of people are like, nah, I don't understand. That came out of nowhere. Yeah. That's the fucking point. Yep. They didn't want anyone to stop them. Yep. So like I think that's one of the things that's hard is that if if we have a client in session talking about wanting to die, that's my indication that they actually don't want to die. Yeah. Because they're actually asking for help. They're asking for resources, they're asking for support and all the things. Mm-hmm. So even if it is documented in their therapy notes, th that isn't actually an indicator that like speaker-0: Again, but that's a a huge example of where the system fails. Yeah. speaker-1: Like speaker-0: The perception is so skewed. Mm-hmm. Yep. speaker-1: Anywho. speaker-0: So what patterns do you get stuck in, Ashley? speaker-1: Hmm speaker-0: Besides eating candy when you're stressed. yes. speaker-1: I was gonna say, well. speaker-0: I mean that falls into the next like question, which is what are your un your unhealthy coping mechanisms? speaker-1: You know what? My unhealthy cucopobism is sugar AF. All the sugars. where do I get what patterns do I get stuck in? probably Like the th well, I don't know. I would probably say I probably get stuck in dating patterns more than anything. I would agree. I would say that dating is the one place I tend to get the most stuck. Yep. In the sense of like especially being a therapist. I think that's really hard. Erica, one of our really good coworkers, helped me kind of step out of that a little bit. 'cause I was talking to her a year ago or something like that about like some dating issues I was having and just being like I understand why they're doing it and it makes it really hard to walk away in the midst of their s struggles or whatever. And she said something to me that was like unconditional positive regard doesn't exist in relationships. Unconditional positive regard only exists in the therapy room. And she was telling me, like, if you are giving a partner unconditional positive regard, then you're not their partner, you are their therapist. And I was like, fuck Erica. How dare you? And then I like, bitch ain't wrong Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So like that is one thing that I think has significantly shifted. So thanks, Erica. I think that significantly shifted the way I show up in my relationships in the sense of like trying really hard to not do the unconditional positive regard and instead saying like these are my limits and I can't do this, I can't do this which so far I feel like has gotten well. I mean like speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I definitely think there's been improved for sure. speaker-1: Yeah, it's gotten better. Mm-hmm. I mean I don't date that much, so like Correct. I don't haven't had a lot of opportunities to like enact that. So So yeah. but I would say that's probably where I get stuck a lot. I'm really good at saying my boundaries and like being like, I'm I don't for example, I don't date people who do drugs. Mm-hmm. Right? Like whatever it is. But when it comes to like the person engaging in like behaviors that are trying to fix problematic behaviors, that's where I get stuck is how many times do I give them the opportunity to fix it before I'm like, I'm done. speaker-0: Yes, knowing the limits. Yes. Is like you have a moving line in the sands. Yes. speaker-1: Correct, one hundred fucking percent. I'm doing this. speaker-0: Yes. And there's no like hard line until speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: there's like until you have fallen over the line seventeen times. speaker-1: Yes. And then I'm that by then I'm just fucking angry and then I'm like, Okay, we're done. Yes. And then I walk away and then I'm just annoyed. Correct. So but I would say that. And then my unhealthy coping mechanism is sugar. One hundred percent. speaker-0: Yeah. I always know when you're stressed when the candy is in a pile in front of you. But speaker-1: Which has gone down quite a bit. I would agree. speaker-0: I also feel like you're way more regulated. Like I haven't seen you disregulated in so long until the other day when your bank account got disconnected from your speaker-1: that made me so fucking mad. speaker-0: You were so tapped out at that point. And I was like, no. It hasn't happened. It speaker-1: Yeah, and you're not wrong though, it actually speaker-0: hasn't happened like that in so long. It's like speaker-1: Yeah, which is surprising. speaker-0: huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder why. I know. What's changed? speaker-1: Ha what up, Shane? Good old boyfriend. Honestly, that's probably what it is. Yeah, speaker-0: Probably a huge part, yeah. speaker-1: I sleep so much better when he's around. Unfortunately for him, because I'm pretty sure he sleeps worse when I'm around. Yeah, well, sorry, honey. Sorry, not sorry. Anywho, what are you? It's yours. What patterns do you get stuck in? I already know yours. speaker-0: I'm curious to know your perspective. No, I wanna know what you have to say first. Yes. speaker-1: No, you say yours. Avoidance. Of everything. Of everything. Especially using sleep. speaker-0: I would say Yes, avoidance specifically of like sitting in the sock of my emotions. I mean definitely I speaker-1: The four of you. speaker-0: just speaker-1: You sit in your emotions and then you're just like I'm done, I can't do it anymore and I speaker-0: And it's very much like when I finally do sit in a sock, like it's like a flooding situation. And then it becomes this like fear response. It's like a whole horrible pattern. Yes. speaker-1: So true. Cra What's your unhealthy combing mechanism, Melissa? speaker-0: We that's like a whole separate podcast, I think speaker-1: Well you can just name it and then we'll talk about it in a different episode. speaker-0: So my unhealthy copy mechanism is an eating disorder that loves to like ruin my life. Mm-hmm. Okay. What's a piece of advice you regret giving to a client and why? Obviously without breaking. speaker-1: I don't think I ha I mean I don't give advice, obviously. speaker-0: Yeah, like we our goal is to avoid giving advice. speaker-1: we don't give people advice, I would say that the only time we ever really quote unquote give advice is more like, Hey, you've done this thing fourteen million times now, at what point are you gonna fucking do something different? speaker-0: Here's like options, right? I think that's kind of where I come in is like, okay, so like here's some things that I see you could try. Yeah. Like autonomy. We've really pushed this place of like I see like seven different choices. What do you what do you feel like might be a good fit? Like what path could you be taking? speaker-1: I mean I definitely have had clients come in where like they complain about the same thing over and over again and then they go and they go try something different and it doesn't work the way they want it to or it doesn't work fast enough and then three months later they come in and they're doing the same thing before. I mean I will be like, No, we're not doing this again. No, no. We're not fucking doing this again. What are we doing here? Yes. You literally just said three weeks ago we weren't doing this again, and here we are, you're doing it again. speaker-0: What's funny is that like I feel like our code really emphasizes that like autonomy, like we don't give advice, we don't tell each other blah blah blah. And I do feel like there are clients where like being that really direct, like absolutely not, what the fuck are you doing? They speaker-1: They need it. speaker-0: like they need I am one of those clients. Like I I need it. Like there are times when Christy's like, what the fuck are you doing? And I'm like, thank God someone's gonna like fucking slap me upside the head and tell me like knock it off. speaker-1: Yeah, well and I think too, like there's there's a level of like I have a client, I've actually multiple clients, where they will say they're not gonna do something, they'll go do it, and then they'll come back and they'll be like, well this happened I'm like, Well, yeah, of course I have how the last time you did it, right? And then I'll tell them, like, Why are we doing this? Like, no, stop it. If you want to keep doing it, I will be here to support I'm speaker-0: You a hundred percent. speaker-1: gonna be here to support you. However, like at some point, fucking do something different, dude. Yep. speaker-0: Well, and it's the same with like relationships. Like you know, you are literally articulating that this isn't healthy for you. Yeah. Right? You know the patterns, you know the you see the flags, like all the things. You know that you're miserable. You know what decision you need to make. Yeah. You're just terrified to make it. So if you're not ready to, I am here for you. Yeah. And I'm also here for you when you're ready to make it. So let's talk about the speaker-1: And if you're not ready to do it, great, what do we need to do to get you there? Like some of us what do we need to do? speaker-0: What are the berries? What are the fears? What is keeping you here? Like what's what's healthy in this relationship enough that's like you're set like Yeah, speaker-1: You're getting something out of it. speaker-0: you're getting something out of it. Yeah. So it's like the exploration piece of like, we're here to support you no matter what decisions you're making, but it's not our job to be like, you should do these things. Go speaker-1: No. speaker-0: take this advice because then we would be in hot water at all times. speaker-1: Yeah, no. And I think too, like sometimes clients will t will hear like you giving options and they'll take that as the advice. Correct. Right? Like and I think that's also an important thing to remember if as a client. Like if your therapist is like, Well, why don't you do this? That might not be them saying, Go do this. That might then be them saying, Here's an option, why don't you try that? Yeah. Why don't you do this? Why don't you do this? Like and I think that's why language is so hard in therapy. Because every single human being that comes into our office perceives the word fine very differently. Yep. And like I think people forget that we speak like 19 different languages in our office. And at 19 different languages are the 19 different clients we're gonna see that week. I can say fine to this client, but I can't say fine to this client. Or I can say, what the fuck are you doing to this client, but I sure as hell can't say to this client. You know what I mean? Like it it means different things to different people. And so I think a lot of people forget that A, we're human, and B, we don't show up the exact same in every single session. Like we have to we have to change every session, depending on what the client brings in. Yep. So speaker-0: Next. speaker-1: do you have clients that totally bug you and you want to fire? Yeah, sometimes. Absolutely. I have fired two claims actually. speaker-0: It happens. But actually not everybody's a good fan. speaker-1: But the two that I fired though were not because well, it was partially because they bugged me, but like they bugged me because we were not good fits. Yes. Like it was because like they needed something very, very different than what I could give them. but honestly, I mean, I don't know. I think the clients that really bug me are the ones who come in and want me to fix them and don't want to do any of the actual work. speaker-0: And that is ultimately, I think, part of the problem and why we say what we say in like intakes, right? We do consultations to check fit and like if it feels like a good fit, for the most part, we try to move forward. And I think where like the bugging comes in isn't necessarily them as people, as humans. It's very much the like when we tell you we aren't gonna do the work for you and we're not gonna pull things out of you and we're not gonna like put in a hundred and fifty percent of the work and you're gonna show up and do ten and then you show up and do one, like we're like, what the hell are we doing here? Yeah no and then we get frustrated. And so it's like that kind of bugging, I think, at the end of the day for me at least, where I'm like, I am not gonna like stop. Like at some point either don't come or do speaker-1: Well, and it's not even necessarily sometimes I don't even feel like it's that I get frustrated at them. I think it's more I get frustrated because I could have a client sitting in my office right now that wants this spot that would be doing the work. And I think sometimes it's also just a mismatch in like where they're at, right? Like, for example, most of my clients that come to me Have either already done some work or they need somebody who's a little bit rougher around the edges, right? They need someone who has that more direct approach, right? Most of the time when I have clients that come to me that want the softer approach, oftentimes they leave on their own. Correct. Because the and and I will tell I tell everyone in my intake or in my consultations even. I'm a very direct therapist. I am not going to be around the bush for you. There are times where that is appropriate and I will do that. Like in the first few months, I'm not gonna come out of the gate being hard and all the things, but like at some point, the flip is going to switch. So if you want somebody who's going to pat you on the back and say, they're there, your life is so hard for you the entire time you're here, I am not the therapist for you. And I have had clients not believe me, and they very quickly found out that I was not lying. And I'm like I understand in your life people don't tell you the truth. That's not what happens here. Reality check. Yes. And then I've also had clients come back a year later. Mm-hmm. I've had multiple clients leave and then come back multiple times. So I mean, I think it really just like this idea that clients totally bug you, it's not that they as human beings bug us. No. It's the way in which they go about g getting their needs met, which is a great I that's a great example of like counter transference and transference, right? Like the way that we are experiencing you is more than likely the way in which other people in the world are experiencing you. And I think that is a and that's maybe a great one to end on is to talk about that. This idea of like If you as a client are pissing me off as a therapist, I'm allowed to use that in session and be like, your behavior is irritating the fuck out of me right now. Where else does this show up? Where else do other people tell you you're irritating? But the problem is that most clients can't tell them that, right? So then you have to do like the, mmm, you know, the way you show up is Kind of activating and like I wonder where else this shows up for you. speaker-0: Which is why we do first impressions at the end. speaker-1: But at the end of the day it's like wha Yeah. That is what speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Just say it. You're irritating the fuck out of me right now. Yeah. Where else does it show up where you irritate the shit out of people and they stop talking to you? Because that's as a client, that's where you're gonna learn the most. If you are completely open with your therapist and you allow your therapist to be dead honest with you and hurt your feelings a little bit, you're gonna get so much more fucking work done. Because if I had clients that came in and I knew I could be like, You're acting like a crazy person right now, what are you doing? No, you should not set your hair on fire to get your ex boyfriend to acknowledge your pain. That is what speaker-0: Yes. And it it's so funny because there are clients and I know I'm sure you have some, but I have some that will walk in and be like, No, just say the things. Yeah, absolutely. Just say the things. Right. speaker-1: About this before. We have a cli a client that we kind of mutually see as like a in like a co-facilitated group that will literally deadpan look me in the eye and be like, I need you to be mean to me. speaker-0: Yes. Alright. Yes. I have I have I think two clients that are like, No no no no, don't hold back, just fucking say it. Yep. Right? And I do the same like there are times Christine now prefaces you're not gonna like this statement and then says it. And I'm like, I don't need to I don't need to fucking like it. I need you to say it. I don't want hand holding. Just say it. I'm not gonna grow if you don't just say it. speaker-1: And I think if you're a client and you're going to therapy and you aren't there in the sense of like just fucking say it to me, like you need to look at yourself and say, Why am I here? Yeah. speaker-0: Because And what am I scared of? Yes, what do you What am I scared of what am I scared of hearing if someone just says the things? Yes. speaker-1: And and at the end of the day, they might say the thing that you're afraid of hearing, and that's a great opportunity for you to experience what it's like to actually hear it from somebody and then also experience the repair that comes from that and the ability to actually change and grow. Right? Like I absolutely I will tell my pr my clients well sounds like you're your own problem now. They don't like hearing it, but it's true. so it sounds like you now have made yourself your own problem, but you're still blaming Kevin down the block or Jerry your ex boyfriend twice removed. Like twice removed. Hold on a second here. It's been eight years. Why are we still blaming your ex when you're the one who's doing the same thing over and over again? Yes. And at some level, a lot of people don't know that they're doing it. Like they don't have the self-awareness around their triggers or around like their patterns and all the things. And so at some at some point, right, that's that's part of the problem. Correct. Is that I am all for therapists being super soft and kind and and gentle with their clients. And at some point you need to rock the boat a little bit. You have to. Like that's the only way for people to learn that repair is real. And that just because there is r rupture or whatever in the relationship that all of a sudden you the ha relationship has to be over. speaker-0: We have a podcast written down for rupture and repair. speaker-1: Yes. Because like that's where relationships are made, is are through rupture and repair. speaker-0: That's how the strength is built. speaker-1: And me looking at my client and saying, What the fuck are you doing? Or You're pissing me off right now. Yep. They need you like you still have you have to hear it. You have to be able to learn how to hear that you are pissing somebody off. But that doesn't mean that like you don't have to you can't come back anymore. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And how do you hear why you're pissing someone off and make adjustments if needed? Yes. Or push back and be like, ooh, I think that's actually a you problem, not a me problem. Mm-hmm. Right? Like there's conversation to be had around that. speaker-1: And I think that's I mean, we have only a couple minutes left, but I think that's the counter transference transference piece is like one of the most like yeah incredible things you can use in therapy. But I think it's also one of the hardest things to introduce in therapy because so many people don't want to hear it. And they're not they're just not capable of hearing. speaker-0: And it's hard to look at. Yeah. It's hard for both the client and the clinician. I feel like a lot of clinicians don't want to look at how their shit is showing up in the room. Yes. And like sit with that or address it or acknowledge it. Like there's so many layers there of clinician shame or discomfort. Yes. That get in the way. Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: So I do wanna end on the last question here, which is do you guys talk about us with each other? speaker-1: Yeah, of course we do. I mean that's literally the whole point of consultation. Yep. I consult with Melissa like at least three or four times a week. Yep. On clients. speaker-0: We absolutely do. speaker-1: I mean that's how you literally get the best care possible is through consultation. Yes. Because she sees things one way, I see things one way. Erica C is one way. Like we all come from different modalities and different perspectives, live different life contexts. And so yeah, I talk about all you fuckers all the time with Melissa. speaker-0: Which is part of the reason why we run groups the way we do. speaker-1: But I also think it's important to acknowledge that like we don't be like, hey k Katie said blah blah blah blah. No, we don't do that. Like we say, hey, I have a client who's dealing with this. Yes. This is happening. This is how I'm approaching it. Like how what would you do? Yes. How would you approach this? speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: Like obviously we don't go around flinging everyone's PHI around, but like we speaker-0: Very much though, right? We acknowledge it. If you've done one of our groups, we acknowledge our differences, right? We we preface that as like a strength of the group, is that like she approaches things very directly. I approach us I approach things very like or I try to in that like gentle trauma focused way. So we have very different lenses. That is the point of the consultation process, is that you are getting different perspectives. So that when we are sitting in the space with you, you are getting not just us, you are getting actually a team of people behind you. Correct. speaker-1: I call it getting three heads for the price of one. Yeah. speaker-0: So with that being said, we are going to open up the speaker-1: hell yeah! speaker-0: question and secret forms for anybody to submit questions for us, and we are going to open up separate form for secrets. So if you have secrets that you want to share and are willing to submit them to the podcast for us to share and talk about and kind of pick apart on like how did we get there and us hypothesize is essentially what it's going to be. It's not going to be us knowing the information. It's gonna be us hypothesizing how we got to this situation in which you have a secret. Yeah. We won't know who it is. Because it it will be set up as an anonymous form. So anybody who submits anything, we will have no idea who it was. Correct. those forms will be open with the podcast being shared today. Or actually it'll probably be open with the opening of the podcast. So, anyways, feel free to submit those. You can submit as many as you want. We will periodically do these podcasts where we answer questions and then do a secrets podcast as well. Yep. Those are open for you guys. We enjoy doing these ones. It's kind of lighthearted and and different from the psychoeducation ones we do. Yeah, these are fun for us. speaker-1: These are way more fun. Information. speaker-0: trying to find the balance between all the so until next time go regulate take care of yourself all right bye speaker-1: Go regulate.